1 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: Musk is probably the richest count ser forever. He didn't 2 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: have a home in Palo Alto, so he would stay 3 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: with Larry Page and they'd stay up all night, and 4 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: Musk would talk about how we have to be careful 5 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: of AI, it could destroy us, and Page was having 6 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: nothing of it. Page loved the notion of AI, and 7 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: Page would even say, it'd be great if we could 8 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 1: have robots that would be conscious, and then we could 9 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: upload our consciousness into it. It would be the next 10 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: phase of evolution. Why are you so worried about humans 11 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: being left behind by the robots? And once Page even 12 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: called him specist, meaning you're biased towards the human species, 13 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: and mus said, yeah, dude, I am species. I like 14 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: the human species and believe it or in these fights 15 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: cause them to quit speaking to each other. I mean, 16 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: they really still don't speak to each other because of 17 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: this philosophical fight. I think Must looks upon himself as 18 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: an epic figure on a grand quest, just like the 19 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 1: comic book characters wearing their underpants on the outside and 20 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: kind of knowing they're ridiculous, but also very insecure about it. 21 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: And I think it's true of a whole lot of people. 22 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: I think it's a human trait, but I think, like 23 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: every human trait in Elon Musk, it's at least two 24 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 1: orders of magnitude greater. 25 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 2: In the week since the release of Walter Isaacson's store 26 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 2: stop biography of Elon Musk, some stories from the book 27 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 2: have jumped off the page, tabloidish fodder like the secret 28 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 2: birth of Musk's third child with Grimes or the secret 29 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 2: births of his twins with his colleague. Nonprocreative stories like 30 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 2: the fact checking drama around the role that Musk's Starlink 31 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 2: satellite network has and has not occupied in Ukraine. And 32 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 2: since Isaacson and I spoke, there's of course been the 33 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 2: unending drama emanating from Musk himself, from amplifying anti Semitic 34 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 2: tweets to publicly telling Disney CEO Bob Eiger to go 35 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 2: fuck himself. But after each tempest dies down, what should 36 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 2: we really take away from this six hundred page epic 37 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,919 Speaker 2: retelling of the life of Musk and about the world 38 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 2: in which he operates. I'm Evan Ratliffe. This is On 39 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 2: Musk with Walter Isaacson, and today we're tangling with Isaacson 40 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 2: over questions around Musk the specist, I mean, whose side 41 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:51,239 Speaker 2: is he on? Anyway? What does his growing geopolitical influence 42 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 2: tell us about the power that one man can hold 43 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 2: in the modern world? And finally, what are we meant 44 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 2: to learn from Isaacson's exhaustive account. How does he think 45 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 2: the book will age? As Musk seems to grow more 46 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 2: divisive and even self destructive by the day Episode four Legacy. 47 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 2: I mean, you spent so much time with Jobs in 48 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 2: the world of Silicon Valley, understanding that world, the whole 49 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,919 Speaker 2: way that world operated at that time, jobs versus gates, 50 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 2: et cetera. And when you came to the end of that, 51 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 2: there's one way you could go where you would say, 52 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 2: I think I get it, I think I get what 53 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 2: Silicon Valley's all about. But then you go after Musk. 54 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:51,119 Speaker 1: We biographers have a dirty little secret. We sometimes distort 55 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: history by making it seem like one guy or one 56 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: gal goes into a garage and a garret, they have 57 00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: a light bulb moment, and then history happened. And usually 58 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: it's done by groups of people and teams as a 59 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: collaborative nature to creativity. And so after doing Steve Jobs 60 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: in which I showed him as a motive force pushing 61 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: the digital revolution. I decided to do a book called 62 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: The Innovators. It was a collective biographical study with dozens 63 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,239 Speaker 1: of people who help invent the concept of the personal 64 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: computer and the concept of the network and then the microchip, 65 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 1: and how they interwove and collaborated. I think, in some 66 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: ways that can be more true to history is to 67 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: show partnerships and teamwork that lead to things. I kind 68 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: of liked it, but it didn't really sell all that well. 69 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: I do think that people like following a main character. 70 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 2: But from us, some of the minor characters are pretty 71 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 2: big personalities and sometimes controversial ones. As musks bluster about 72 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 2: buying Twitter turns into reality, a crew of his old 73 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 2: valley pals start to resurface in Isaacson's tail. Many of 74 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 2: them are from what Fortune magazine once called the PayPal 75 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 2: mafia ex PayPal exacts like David Sachs, Ken Howry Reid Hoffman, 76 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 2: and Peter Teel. Many of them seem to be Musk's whispers, 77 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 2: simultaneously steering Musk away from jagged financial shoals and toward 78 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 2: a frothing ocean of an anti woke free speech Maelstrom. 79 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 2: There is a whole world of how these Silicon Valley 80 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 2: moguls you would call many of them are executives sort 81 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 2: of like relate to each other. And a lot of 82 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 2: it goes back to PayPal and the PayPal mafia and 83 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 2: people who started PayPal then becoming these friends and Musk 84 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 2: being involved in it. I mean, you mentioned Antonio Grascia's 85 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 2: you already knew him. Is that a world that you 86 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 2: already had entry into and understood or you learned through 87 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 2: Musk the relationships between these people and how that actually 88 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 2: influences what happens in these. 89 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 1: By writing about Steve Jobs and then doing the Innovators, 90 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: I certainly got to know that world very well of 91 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: tech bros, and even that world of the quasi libertarian 92 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 1: tech bro mentality that's say a Peter til at this center. 93 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: One of the things that helps understand Mosque today goes 94 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: back to those PayPal years. He had started a company 95 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 1: called x dot com, which he wanted to have be 96 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: a payments app, but also in everything app, an app 97 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: that would be social media and would be a publishing platform. 98 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: And it merges with a company that Peter Tiel is 99 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 1: and it becomes PayPal. Mosque wants to keep it named 100 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: x x dot com. He loves the mystery of that 101 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: letter X. He thinks it's hardcore, and they overrule them 102 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: and they use the name PayPal, which he thinks is 103 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: a sweet little name of pals. They want to pay 104 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: each other, but it's not an everything app that's going 105 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: to change the world, and they kick him out, and 106 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: for twenty years it's eating away at him, which is why, 107 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: of course he wants to buy Twitter and it becomes 108 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: the booster to create what he'd always wanted, which is 109 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: a payments platform connected to a publishing platform connected to 110 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: social media. But he does something that I found somewhat 111 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: surprising until I fully understood it is when he gets 112 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: kicked out of PayPal. In this coup by Peter Teel 113 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: and Read Hoffman, ken Howery, David Sachs and Max Levchin, 114 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: must decides instead of hating them forever and thinking their enemies, 115 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: he makes up with them, even though he says they 116 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: knife me in the forum, kick me out of my job, 117 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: and it comes back as good karma. They end up 118 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: investing in SpaceX dollars. 119 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 2: Basically, you write as an apology, almost. 120 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: As a way after three rocket launches by SpaceX have 121 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: failed and they've run out of money, Teal says it's 122 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: a good way to try to make it up to him, 123 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: and it saves SpaceX. And this crowd remains relatively friendly, 124 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: and their political views and their technology views influence each other, 125 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: and it all feeds in to understanding why his politics 126 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: have become somewhat of this populist right libertarian streak. 127 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 2: This book is gonna people are going to take lessons 128 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 2: from it, even if you don't explicitly prescribe what those 129 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 2: lessons are going to be. And especially in the business world, 130 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 2: people like to read these books for tips and for advice. 131 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 2: And let's take people in Silicon Valley, for example, what 132 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 2: do you think they are going to draw from the book? 133 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 2: And are you at all concerned that they might draw 134 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:16,839 Speaker 2: the wrong lesson? 135 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: Now with Steve Jobs, when that book came out, there 136 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: were a lot of stories of do you have to 137 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: be like Steve Jobs to be successful? A Wired magazine 138 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: cover story did it, And I was saying no, this 139 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: book was not a how to manual. Sometimes people come 140 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 1: up to me after I talked about Steve Jobs and 141 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: they'd say, I'm just like Steve. 142 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 2: Jobs like, I'm not a waz, I'm a job. 143 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not was I'm not sweet, I'm not cuddly. 144 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: I'm like jobs. If people screw things up, I tell 145 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: them they've screwed up. I fire them, I tell them 146 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: they stink. I'll say on a podcast, and I'll look 147 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: at them and I say yeah. And have you ever 148 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,439 Speaker 1: invented the iPod? Did you ever make the mac tash 149 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: the iPhone? You don't have the right to do this. 150 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: Probably Steve Jobs didn't have the right to do it. 151 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: But you're not supposed to try to be like this. 152 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 2: Do you worry at all? You mentioned the verson who 153 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 2: comes up to you and says, I'm like Steve Jobs, 154 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 2: that they are going to be musk accolytes who will 155 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 2: take those wrong lessons, and that some of those people 156 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 2: run Silicon Valley. They run very important aspects, if not 157 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 2: the most important aspects of our society right now. Does 158 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:31,559 Speaker 2: it concern you that people might take a muski and 159 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 2: approach and lack the vision but have the persona and 160 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 2: that those people are making consequential decisions about the tools 161 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 2: we use. 162 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean one lesson a lot of Silicon Valley 163 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: executives seem to have taken from the book is, oh, 164 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,199 Speaker 1: my workforce is probably too flabby. I can fire eighty 165 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: percent the way Elon Musk did at Twitter, and now 166 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: you can't just do that. Also, there's a larger issue 167 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: which the book wrestles with, which I call the Old 168 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: Twitter New Twitter issue, which is that life is about 169 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: a little bit more than simply having the leanest meanness 170 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: machine you can create. And some people may want to 171 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: do that, especially people doing startups. They may want to 172 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: be lean mean and hackathon all night long. But there 173 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: are other people who will keep in mind the larger 174 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: mission of having an enterprise or a company, and that 175 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 1: is there to create good for all of society, for 176 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: consumers for good products, but also the people who work 177 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: there and the communities where they're based. And I think 178 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: that's a good tension to have in our society. You know, 179 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: I used to work at Diamond Corporated, and boy, it 180 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: was nice and flabby. You know. We had a dozen 181 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: people working in the Nation section to produce maybe eight 182 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:07,439 Speaker 1: pages every week. We had researchers, we had assistants and schedulers. 183 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: We even had the person who brought the food cart 184 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: and a drink cart around every evening. And then you know, 185 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: everybody from activist investors to Mackenzie consultants come in and say, 186 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: you can cut this, you can cut that, you can 187 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: make it leaner and meaner. And there are people who 188 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: are comfortable being all in in hardcore Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, 189 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, totally hardcore. And they are people 190 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: who are more comfortable finding a nurturing, good environment for people. 191 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: We have to find the right balances. I would disdain 192 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: somebody who is always tough as an Elon Musk. I'd 193 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: also kind of disdain people who lack a sense of 194 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: passion and mission. But the books aren't how to manual 195 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 1: saying you should do this at your company. These books, 196 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: especially when it comes to Elon Musk, are supposed to 197 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: do two things that people have a hard time keeping 198 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: both in their mind. Be inspirational and be cautionary. But 199 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: above all, it is a story of a real person 200 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: that is one of the most consequential of our day 201 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 1: in generation. 202 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 2: And I mean I think a certain percentage of people 203 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 2: today have a hard time understanding the approach where you 204 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 2: could happily sit and listen to a Peter Thiel or 205 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:44,199 Speaker 2: someone with those politics and not kind of challenge them, 206 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 2: be angry and just sort of sit with them in 207 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 2: a very reporter like way. 208 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: I go back to the notion of I'm supposed to 209 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: tell you the story. Am I supposed to say I 210 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: totally disagree with Peter Teal's view on the Ukraine War. No, 211 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 1: that's I mean, do I disagree? Yeah? I don't share 212 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: his beliefs on that or many othering But if you 213 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: want the hot take on whether or not you agree 214 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: with Peter o'teal's politics, my book's not for you. I'm 215 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: telling you how this story happened. 216 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 2: When we come back stacking Musk up against jobs and 217 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 2: answering Isaacson's critics, including those who keep quoting him, stay 218 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 2: with us. This is a very small detail, But because 219 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 2: you're a New Orleanian, I have to ask this. You 220 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 2: quote Musk talking about how if he could skip meals 221 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 2: and just get his nutrients from like, you know, soilent 222 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 2: or liquid beverage or whatever, he would just do that. 223 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 2: It's very valley thing. And what did you do for 224 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 2: food when you were alongside. 225 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: One of the wonderful things about Bokatika Texas and this 226 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: rough little scrubland there's a canteen that's stocked with amazingly 227 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: good barbecue salads, and you can walk in twenty four 228 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: hours a day. I could walk from my airstream trailer 229 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: and remarkably it actually had good coffee too, or at 230 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: least good coffee for Texas. But must doesn't care about food. 231 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: He doesn't care about fine wines. He really doesn't drink 232 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: that much. Occasionally you go out to dinner with him 233 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: and a few people and they'll be craft cocktails. You know, 234 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: I don't know, cactus juice with tequila, and they'll always 235 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: try one and never quite finish it. He never cares 236 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: that much about the food he's ordering. But I know 237 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: that when I finally came off the trail, having traveled 238 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: with him and having been someone back even in April 239 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: to watch the Starship launch, or then to Austin for 240 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: him to launch Xai, I finally said, Okay, I'm gonna 241 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: have to start eating right again. And I remember eating 242 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: very carefully but also craving really good food. And so 243 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: i'd be down in New Orleans and my wife Kathy 244 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: and I we made a habit of once a week 245 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: eating at Gallatoise, once a week eating at Herbsane, and 246 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: once a week eating at Pesh and maybe once every 247 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: week or two eating at Moscow's, which is a great places. Yeah, 248 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: just so I could remember the taste of really good food, 249 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: having spent two years watching him grab sandwiches and hamburgers. 250 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 2: On Isaacson's book tour for his Musk biography, he was 251 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 2: regularly quizzed about how Musk compares with Jobs, perhaps the 252 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 2: most obvious foil among Isaacson's subjects. 253 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: At one of my events, a high school student came 254 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: up to the microphone and he actually had read the 255 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: whole book. 256 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 2: Impressive. 257 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: He had a question that he said I hadn't answered. 258 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: I said, what's that? And he said, was elon Musk 259 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: nice to waiters and waitresses? And I realized that was 260 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: an insightful question, and I thought of Steve Jobs. I 261 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: remember one day at a Whole Foods in Palo Alto, 262 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 1: there's an older woman who was making the smoothie, and 263 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 1: Steve Jobs just chewed her out because she wasn't doing 264 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 1: it fast enough and wasn't doing it in the right way. 265 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: And I remember of all the things that made me 266 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: recoil it was being mean to a person making the 267 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: smoothie it or being a waiter like Jobs could be. 268 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: Musk was actually incredibly rough on people he worked with. 269 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: But all the times I saw him where there were 270 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: waiters or waitresses or some body at a shop or whatever, 271 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: he would get into sort of a jovial mood. And 272 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: so I don't think he had a meanness that would 273 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: have been reflected in the way he treated waiters. And 274 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: I thought, shoot, that was a really good question that 275 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 1: kid asked, and I probably get in trouble with Steve Jobs. 276 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 2: But boy, well Jobs isn't around anymore, sadly, but Musk 277 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,880 Speaker 2: could still. Is there something he could do that would 278 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 2: make you fundamentally rethink whether you should have written the 279 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 2: book about him? 280 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:39,959 Speaker 1: No, I think the book explains correctly who he is. 281 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: And his reputation will go way up and way down 282 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 1: as it has for the past twenty five years, and 283 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 1: he'll get starship into orbit someday and they'll be on 284 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: the front page of the paper. And also he will 285 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 1: do things be it with Twitter or with self job 286 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: that'll cause problems and be bad. So there will be 287 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: a rollercoaster on his reputation, and that will be the 288 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: case for the next twenty years. 289 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 2: How does that feel to kind of be connected to 290 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:18,400 Speaker 2: someone who, as you have amply captured, is extremely volatile 291 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 2: and is also maybe becoming a little more controversial every day. 292 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's not great. I would love it 293 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: if he would lie low for like a year, but 294 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 1: he ain't gonna do that. And that's what this book explains, 295 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 1: which is at one point, Antonio Grassius's friend takes his 296 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,199 Speaker 1: phone away from him when they're traveling and puts it 297 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 1: in the hotel room safe so Musk won't get up it. 298 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: And in the middle of the night, Musk calls hotel 299 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 1: security and makes him open the safe so he can 300 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 1: start tweeting out where things. That's who Musk is. 301 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 2: And you have this body of work when it comes 302 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 2: to biographies. You've got Ben Franklin, you've got Einstein, you've 303 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 2: got Da Vinci, and then you have the living ones 304 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 2: down in a now Musk, And I think it tends 305 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 2: to create an impression even sometimes I think they're packaged 306 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 2: together for marketing purposes, that all of these people are 307 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 2: of a kind. They're almost like a trajectory of human achievement. 308 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 2: Do you think of Musk as fitting in with Da 309 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 2: Vinci Einstein, these world legendary figures, or do you feel like, well, 310 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 2: the jury's still out on that, but he's the closest 311 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 2: I can get in modern times. 312 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: I don't think that all the people I've written about 313 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: are of one kind. But the reason you write biographies 314 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: rather than sort of how to manuals for innovation is 315 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: that each is different and there's certain common threads, which 316 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 1: is a passion to push reality into a certain mission 317 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 1: that you have. But I don't. I tried to say 318 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: I'm writing about Elon Musk because he's like Benjamin Franklin. 319 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 2: Do you think he's spoiled other subjects for you in 320 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 2: that it's difficult to find a subject who has those 321 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 2: different personalities, all of that contained in one person. 322 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean it would be hard to find a 323 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: contemporary character who comes even close to being as head snapping, amazing, 324 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 1: gut wrenching, mercurial of a roller coaster and emotional and 325 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: professional subject. I can't think of anybody who's this fascinating 326 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 1: for good and for bad. 327 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 2: So I want to talk about some of the criticism 328 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 2: that comes up around the book and getting you a 329 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 2: chance to respond to some of that stuff. There's must 330 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 2: being a difficult and demanding person, even an asshole, whether 331 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 2: that matters for how creative he is, how innovative he is. 332 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 2: And then there's these sort of larger societal accusations, let's say, 333 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 2: like allowing misinformation or encouraging misinformation, or the self driving 334 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 2: and people getting killed, or the sort of lawsuit against 335 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 2: Tesla when it comes to racial discrimination. Those seem to 336 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 2: be two separate ideas, and I'm wondering we've talked a 337 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 2: lot about the first one, and how you feel about 338 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 2: that second basket, that question of whether, aside from whether 339 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 2: he is or isn't a bad person to his employees, 340 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 2: there are things that he's doing in the world that 341 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 2: have negative implications. 342 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think when you barrel ahead impulsively, you do 343 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:50,360 Speaker 1: things that have negative implications. You know, bad workplace environments. Well, 344 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: it starts at the top because he's all in hardcore driven. 345 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: He's not been to what he thinks are touchy feely 346 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 1: HR guidelines, and that's bad. Likewise, he pushes a little 347 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: fast on full self driving. I mean, he feels that 348 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: humans will kill ten or one hundred times more people 349 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 1: than a self driving car will, So he doesn't get 350 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: the fact that a self driving just you know, one 351 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 1: time as it did this once hit a side of 352 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 1: a big white truck, you know, and that's been in 353 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 1: the news after three four years, it's still in the news. 354 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: He says, you know, people focus on that, not the 355 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 1: million of people got killed by humans. Was because he 356 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: doesn't have a real feel for human feelings and emotions. 357 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: He doesn't realize that a self driving car smashing somebody 358 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: into a truck is going to really shake people up 359 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: more than the fact that a bad driver, you know, 360 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: here on Clayborne Avenue in New Orleans got into an accident. 361 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 1: So these are the things that his engineering mindset doesn't 362 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,199 Speaker 1: feel as well. 363 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 2: And I feel like when people bring those things up, 364 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 2: they're often saying they want you to engage with those 365 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 2: things more. And we've talked about, you know, explaining what's 366 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 2: going on versus moralizing, But how do you feel about 367 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 2: how you engaged with sort of that aspect of musk. 368 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: Well. I like the fact that people who say I'm 369 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,399 Speaker 1: not as tough on musk as I should be are 370 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: always using anecdotes for my book to show why we 371 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: should be tough on musk. And the couple people have 372 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: pointed that out. I mean, certainly, if you're looking at 373 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 1: the bad workplace environments that he may engender, either at 374 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: Tesla or at Twitter, that's in the book, you know, 375 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: in no uncertain terms. Likewise, the accidents on the self 376 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 1: driving cars are definitely in the book, starting with Autonomy 377 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: Day in twenty nineteen all the way to the present. 378 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: There's a lot of evidence that his obsession with this 379 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 1: might be moving things too fast. So I'm perfectly happy 380 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: people say I should have been tougher on Musk, but 381 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: also say, man, read the book if you want ammunition, 382 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: both of how amazing he can be at times and 383 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: getting things done, but also the rubble he leaves in 384 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: his wake. 385 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 2: When it came to the Ukraine starlink situation. You've talked 386 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,959 Speaker 2: about that, the thing that got corrected in the post 387 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 2: and Musk tweeting. But maybe you've talked about this, but 388 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 2: I haven't heard it yet. But I'm interested in what 389 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 2: it felt like for you. Like you strike me as 390 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,439 Speaker 2: someone who's like relatively unbothered by some of the noise 391 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 2: that's around the way. 392 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: I think you have to be unbothered by the noise, 393 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 1: and you have to keep the essence of the story 394 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: in mind. The essence of that story was fine, it 395 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: was correct, which was that night he was deciding whether 396 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,959 Speaker 1: or not to allow starlink to be enabled or not 397 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,439 Speaker 1: be enabled to allow a sneak attack on Crimea, and 398 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,120 Speaker 1: there was a fix that had to be made because 399 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: it had already been geofence. So his decision was not 400 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: to permit the movement of the geo fencing. I hadn't 401 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: gone into it enough. I just said he turned it off, 402 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: So that was oversimplifying, but I didn't want to get 403 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 1: distracted from the main thing, which is this private citizen 404 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: is suddenly deciding that night whether or not Ukraine gets 405 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: to do a sneak attack on the Russian fleet in Crimea. 406 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:20,919 Speaker 1: The essence is a private citizen has that power to decide, 407 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: and neither he nor anybody else corrected that. And then 408 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 1: I talked to him, I said, well, have you talked 409 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: to the US government and he turns over power to 410 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 1: these satellites of the US government. Finally at a later point, Yeah, 411 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: at a later point after that night where we talk 412 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: about it. So you see all of these things happen, 413 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 1: and I try to have it shown in real time, 414 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: and the essence of the story being how does somebody 415 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: acquire this much power? Why is it that the rest 416 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: of government and other contractors have become so paralyzed and 417 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: sclerotic that they can't do some of these things? And 418 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:06,160 Speaker 1: then how does he, with his megalomania, finally back down 419 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: and say, maybe I should give up some of this power. 420 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 2: There's something chilling about Musk's power and influence growing beyond 421 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 2: his companies, beyond the rocket launch pad and the Tesla 422 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 2: factory floor, and in the case of Starlink satellites use 423 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 2: in Ukraine. Even Musk himself finds this a little unsettling, 424 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 2: from failing to understand how people might respond to self 425 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 2: driving car deaths to his outwardly blase approach to controlling 426 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,439 Speaker 2: global geopolitics with a thumbs up or thumbs down like 427 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 2: a Roman emperor in the coliseum. People are not elon 428 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 2: Musk's forte by zone admission, but we are increasingly in 429 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,640 Speaker 2: his hands. And depending on where you stand on Musk, 430 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 2: some of his ideas can see either sinister, logical or 431 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 2: simply baffling. Take for example, his stated concern about underpopulation 432 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 2: and declaration that people need to be having more children. Well, 433 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 2: more specifically, smart people need to be having more Chines children. 434 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,160 Speaker 2: It's a Creed's lived with all ten of his surviving 435 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 2: children born by IVF. He's put his money behind it too, 436 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 2: funding a University of Texas at Austin research group called 437 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 2: the Population Well Being Initiative to the tune of ten 438 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,199 Speaker 2: million dollars. What I wanted to know from Isaacson was 439 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 2: given his front row seat to Musk's unusual family dramas. 440 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 2: What are we supposed to make of this particular Musk obsession? 441 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 2: He tweets and talks about low birth rates, and he 442 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 2: seems very obsessed, maybe as too much, but I think 443 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 2: I wanted to know what does this add up to? 444 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 2: What is this about? I was sort of left. I 445 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 2: don't understand what this tells me about Elon Musk, which 446 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 2: is maybe my problem. 447 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: But like a lot of things with Elon, Musk goes 448 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: back to the father a bit. It also goes to musk. 449 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: Theory of consciousness in the human species is a fragile thing, 450 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: and one of the threats is a low birth rate. 451 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 1: Now most of us probably don't think that way. We 452 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: think we're overpopulated, but there is a decline in earthright 453 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: in many, many countries, and Musk deeply feels that's a problem. 454 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: And you know, people can totally disagree with that and say, hey, 455 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: overpopulation is a big problem. They can also think he's 456 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: weird to fund ivf for other people or fun clinics. 457 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 2: That's It's the kind of thing where people can look 458 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 2: at it and they can say he has this vision 459 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 2: for humanity and it involves like people having more children, 460 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 2: and then there are people who see it through a 461 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 2: lens of is this some kind of eugenics situation. I 462 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 2: feel like people bring these lenses to it, and I'm 463 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 2: wondering if that has happened in your past work, or 464 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 2: if this is a unique situation. 465 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: I think it's somewhat unique that people have such extraordinarily 466 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: strong feelings for and against Musque. When I started working 467 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: on this book, he was one of the most popular 468 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: people on Earth. There's some people who didn't like him, 469 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: but his politics was generally a supporter of Obama. He 470 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: had done really bad dumb tweets in the past, like 471 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: saying he was going to take Tesla private or calling 472 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: some cave diver a pedophile, but generally he wasn't that controversial? 473 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: And then his politics shift and it reflected in his 474 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: tweets and he buys Twitter, and so I end up 475 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: with a book in which people either think he's an 476 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: absolute hero or an absolute villain. And if you come 477 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 1: at it from a frame of Musk is inherently an 478 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: evil person. Even having a lot of kids seems like 479 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: something evil, and pushing for self driving cars or robots 480 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 1: seems evil. Likewise, if you're one of these starry eyed fans, 481 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: even the weird dark thing he does on Twitter, people 482 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: will be slamming me for telling the stories of his behavior, 483 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: both at Twitter and at factories. So yeah, it's a 484 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: difficulty that people frame his every action, often based on 485 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: their own love or hatred for him. 486 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 2: Up next, I asked Isaacson, does Musk really believe his 487 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 2: own hype? Stay with us? There's a tension, it feels like, 488 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 2: between the way that Musk talks about that epic idea 489 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 2: getting to Mars, helping save humanity with interplanetary species, et cetera, 490 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 2: and the way he treats individual people like he doesn't 491 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 2: like people. Sometimes he can be very cruel, and I'm 492 00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 2: wondering does he really care or is he just trying 493 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 2: to make himself an epic figure, or is he actually 494 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 2: trying to solve the energy problem send us to Mars 495 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 2: for humanity reasons. 496 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: When Musk first started talking about his three grade missions, 497 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: you know, space travel and artificial intelligence and sustainable energy, 498 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: I thought it was a type of pontifications that you'd 499 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 1: do for a biographer, or do for a podcast, or 500 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: do for a PEP talk. And then I'd see him 501 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: over and over again just chant it to himself, like 502 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: walking around the factory for building starship, and things are 503 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 1: getting delayed, and he would keep saying to himself and 504 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: others around him, we have to have an urgency of 505 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: getting humanity to Mars. And I came to believe that. 506 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: I don't know if he always fully believed it, but 507 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,239 Speaker 1: I know he believed he believed it. I know that 508 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: he sounds strange, but sometimes, and so Shakespeare teaches us, 509 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: we become the mask we wear. And he had internalized 510 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: and externalized this so much that he was driven by 511 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 1: a fierce urgency that we've got to get rockets that 512 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: can get us to Mars within the next few decades, 513 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 1: or that we have to sustain solar and battery and 514 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: electric vehicle energy on this planet. And I am totally 515 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: convinced that he is driven by his belief in those missions. 516 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 1: And then he backfills and figures out, well, how can 517 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: I make money on the way. But if you're driven 518 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 1: mainly by financial or selfish reasons, you're not going to 519 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: start a rocket company. That's not a good idea for 520 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: making money. You're not going to start an EV company 521 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: when every other car company is getting out of the business. 522 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: You're not going to worry about robots, and you're not 523 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: going to buy Twitter. So I don't think he was 524 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: motivated by money. He was motivated by this almost manchild 525 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: epic sense of him as a hero in a comic 526 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: book or a video game. 527 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,879 Speaker 2: M Well, the Twitter one is interesting because I felt 528 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 2: like the way you wrote that almost reverse the polls 529 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 2: there in which he decides to buy Twitter, He impulsively decides, 530 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 2: gets stuck with it, and then he almost seems to 531 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 2: be backfilling the mission where he says, actually. 532 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,919 Speaker 1: I ask him at one point, how does this fit 533 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: into your mission? Makes no sense? I mean, I'm thinking 534 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: it's aniotic to buy Twitter because he doesn't have a 535 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:47,439 Speaker 1: fingertip feel for social emotional networks, and he admits he said, yes, 536 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: maybe it's a lark, maybe it doesn't really fit in. 537 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,279 Speaker 1: And then later he says, well, maybe it will help 538 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 1: democracy so that civilization will survive long enough that we'll 539 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 1: be able to become all planetary. And that's why I 540 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 1: just didn't believe him. And I'm not even sure he 541 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: believed himself. That's just a bulk wrap explanation, but he 542 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 1: had to try to justify it to himself. But my 543 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: own opinion is he kind of stumbled into that impulsively 544 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: and had mixed feelings about it, and if he had 545 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: to do it all over again, I'm not sure he would. 546 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 2: You've talked about how you think Twitter will just be 547 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,359 Speaker 2: a blip of his legacy, but he certainly canon is 548 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 2: getting mired in it. And there's this quote in the book. 549 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,800 Speaker 2: It's him saying, I probably spend too much time on Twitter. 550 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 2: It's a good place to dig your own grave. You 551 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 2: get your shoulder into it and you keep on digging. 552 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 2: Do you feel that he could be undoing some of 553 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 2: that magic, that vision that you captured when it comes 554 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 2: to space or electric cars. 555 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I personally feel that the time he spends Twitter 556 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: and the mind share he devotes to it is not 557 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: as important. It's not as high value as him doing 558 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 1: something else. And I don't think he's particularly good if 559 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: the social interactions and human emotions that come in Twitter, 560 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: and he admits he's just addicted to it. I don't 561 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,760 Speaker 1: think it's going to be an important part of his legacy. 562 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: It's not going to be a great part of his legacy. 563 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: I think it makes a book more interesting for this 564 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: guy to go down this rabbit hole, but also near 565 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,919 Speaker 1: the end of the book to say, you know, this 566 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: isn't the best use of my time, even talking about Twitter, 567 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 1: he said, we probably could be talking about more important things. 568 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 2: It's also it's made him disliked in a way that 569 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 2: I feel like he wasn't disliked before. I mean, if 570 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 2: you look at the category of things that people dislike 571 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 2: him for Twitter, and things he's said on Twitter and 572 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 2: done with Twitter occupy a large percentage of those things. 573 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: Absolutely when you look at the controversy's cause and for 574 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,879 Speaker 1: that matter, of the end and hatred that he's engendered, 575 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: about ninety five percent of that comes either from what 576 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 1: he says on Twitter, or what he does on Twitter, 577 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 1: or what he does to Twitter. 578 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 2: Musk is polarizing, arguably one of the two most polarizing 579 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 2: figures of our time. I'll let you guess the other. 580 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 2: His fans can be slavishly adoring, his critics can be 581 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,840 Speaker 2: blind with rage. But if there was one common thread 582 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 2: among the more critical takes on Isaacson's biography, it was 583 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 2: a demand for more judgment, or at least analysis from Isaacson. 584 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 2: What was the ultimate meaning in all these stories he gathered, 585 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,760 Speaker 2: these hours at Musk's side. Were we supposed to believe 586 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,279 Speaker 2: that he was some kind of tortured genius, or that 587 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,719 Speaker 2: he was a cruel tyrant who'd muscled his way to 588 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 2: valley success and was now inflicting a dangerous outlook on 589 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 2: the world outside it? What did it all add up to? 590 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,840 Speaker 2: For two days I played out different versions of this 591 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 2: question with Isaacson. 592 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 1: I'm here to be as straightforward as I can with 593 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 1: the reader, to tell you stories that I think are 594 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: very revealing, somewhat exciting, somewhat appalling, but always informative. And 595 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,320 Speaker 1: in face of the criticism that well, maybe I didn't 596 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,840 Speaker 1: render too much judgment, I tried pretty hard to pull 597 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 1: back a bit to say you can kind of tell 598 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 1: what I think by the way I'm telling this story, 599 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: but I'm not going to hammer that into you. You 600 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,800 Speaker 1: should wrestle with each of these things and figure out 601 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 1: how it fits with your own vision of life. 602 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 2: You never say to yourself, maybe I should put ten 603 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 2: percent more judgment in there. 604 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 1: No, No, that's something I coppa plate to totally. I 605 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:47,439 Speaker 1: certainly don't feel in any way bad that I didn't 606 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,839 Speaker 1: impose more of my judgments in it. 607 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 2: There's a lot of writing of the book about the 608 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 2: chaos that surrounds Musk. But then I wondered, you have 609 00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 2: had many war reporters working for you that you're responsible 610 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,439 Speaker 2: in some sense, and so do you feel like the 611 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,640 Speaker 2: reporting and editing that you did prepared you for the 612 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 2: chaos of Musk or to say like this is not 613 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,360 Speaker 2: real chaos compared to other types of reporting. 614 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 1: Every now and then when Musk is doing something incredibly 615 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 1: chaotic or has themselves worked up into a lather. I 616 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 1: do remember times where things were much worse, and I 617 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,239 Speaker 1: remember being in Belfast in Northern Ireland when I worked 618 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,319 Speaker 1: for the Sunday Times and all the explosions, and I 619 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 1: certainly remember the Gulf War when I was at CNN 620 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,879 Speaker 1: and went out to one of America's aircraft carriers, which 621 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 1: is where CNN had some of its reporters embedded. And 622 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,400 Speaker 1: I think, Okay, when we think things are going bad, 623 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: let's remember there's some really bad things happening in this world. 624 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,720 Speaker 1: And I wish if I could do many things for Musk, 625 00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,360 Speaker 1: it would sometimes be calmed down a bit, you know, 626 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 1: don't be so apocalyptic about things, because he has an 627 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 1: apocalyptic mindset. 628 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,759 Speaker 2: You told a story about going to Northern Ireland when 629 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 2: you're a reporter and you were with another reporter and 630 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 2: you left the hotel in the hotel got bombed, and 631 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:26,800 Speaker 2: then he actually later died reporting in El Saltimore. Yeah, 632 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:31,880 Speaker 2: And the question I had was, what's the lesson from that? 633 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 2: Like leaving the hotel saved you in a way, but 634 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 2: he then was killed taking risks? Where do you triangulate 635 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:42,759 Speaker 2: the lesson in that. 636 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: One of the things you learned is that sometimes there 637 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:52,000 Speaker 1: are no lessons. That sometimes things happen and they're random. 638 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 1: Sometimes a sniper bullet kills somebody. Sometimes risk taking can 639 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: get you killed. Times not taking enough risks makes you paralyzed. 640 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:12,480 Speaker 1: So there's not always easy lessons and those stories happen 641 00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:16,439 Speaker 1: to be as valuable because they tell you that there's 642 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 1: a mosaic in life. Sometimes complex patterns are there, and 643 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 1: sometimes you can't see the pattern just with one or 644 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:30,360 Speaker 1: two data points. Maybe you should restrain yourself. Maybe maybe 645 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,000 Speaker 1: there's not a hot take to be had, Maybe there's 646 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 1: not even a lesson. It's just a part of this 647 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:45,799 Speaker 1: beautiful complexity of humans and human life, and you appreciate 648 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:51,320 Speaker 1: those patterns and eventually they lead to intuitions as opposed 649 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: to quick lessons. 650 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,960 Speaker 2: That's a great ending for this whole show. Perhaps I 651 00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:57,800 Speaker 2: I'll have that on tape. 652 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,319 Speaker 1: Don't ask it again. I'll ever be able to well, 653 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 1: thank got it? I feel that way. 654 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,440 Speaker 2: On Musk with Walter Isaacson is a production of Kaleidoscope 655 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,279 Speaker 2: and iHeart. This show is based on the writing and 656 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:17,319 Speaker 2: reporting of Walter Isaacson. It's hosted by me Evan Ratliffe, 657 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 2: produced by Lizzie Jacobs, assistant production from Serena Chow, mixing 658 00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,680 Speaker 2: and sound design by Rick Kwan. Thomas Walsh did the 659 00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:28,920 Speaker 2: engineering from iHeart Podcasts. The executive producers are Katrina Norvel 660 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,839 Speaker 2: and Ali Perry. For Kaleidoscope, it was executive produced by 661 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:37,480 Speaker 2: Manges Hittikador with an assist from Oz Walishan Costaslinos and 662 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:42,640 Speaker 2: Kate Osbourne. Special thanks to Bob Pittman, Connell Byrne, will Pearson, 663 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:47,880 Speaker 2: Nicki Etor, Kerry Lieberman, Nathan Otoski, Ali Gavin, and the 664 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,680 Speaker 2: folks at WWNO who let us use their beautiful studio 665 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 2: in New Orleans. If you like stories about writers in 666 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,200 Speaker 2: their process, check out my other show, The Long Form Podcast. 667 00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:58,600 Speaker 2: If you want a story about a different South African 668 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,239 Speaker 2: programmer who became one of the world's biggest criminals, you 669 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:03,879 Speaker 2: can check out my book, The Mastermind. And for more 670 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:07,480 Speaker 2: shows from Kaleidoscope, be sure to visit Kaleidoscope dot NYC. 671 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening.