1 00:00:14,740 --> 00:00:15,260 Speaker 1: Hi, guys. 2 00:00:15,300 --> 00:00:18,810 Speaker 2: Welcome back to Killer Thriller Docu Edition. Today, we are 3 00:00:18,850 --> 00:00:22,930 Speaker 2: looking at a case that raises heartbreaking questions about domestic violence, 4 00:00:23,350 --> 00:00:26,230 Speaker 2: warning signs, and whether a tragedy could have been prevented. 5 00:00:26,990 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 2: So it's January 2023, and Tasha Haight, her five children, 6 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 2: and her mother, Gail Earl, were all found dead in 7 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:38,620 Speaker 2: their Utah home. And the person responsible was Tasha's husband, 8 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:41,590 Speaker 2: Michael Haight, who also died by suicide. So in the 9 00:00:41,659 --> 00:00:44,140 Speaker 2: weeks leading up to these killings, Tasha had filed for 10 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 2: divorce and she had concerns about abuse that had brought 11 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:51,260 Speaker 2: child welfare officials into the family lives. So now there 12 00:00:51,300 --> 00:00:55,780 Speaker 2: is a new investigation discovery special, Toxic, What Happened in 13 00:00:55,820 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 2: the Hate House? And it examines the events that led 14 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 2: up to that morning and the warning signs that may 15 00:01:00,950 --> 00:01:03,750 Speaker 2: have been missed and the questions that remain about whether 16 00:01:03,890 --> 00:01:07,550 Speaker 2: anyone could have intervened. So guys, we are talking to 17 00:01:08,170 --> 00:01:14,110 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Chambers. who hosts the two-hour investigation. Elizabeth, hello, and 18 00:01:14,150 --> 00:01:15,370 Speaker 2: thank you so much for being here. 19 00:01:15,709 --> 00:01:17,910 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me, Jennifer. Thank you so much. 20 00:01:17,970 --> 00:01:20,850 Speaker 3: And thank you for shedding light on this very important case. 21 00:01:21,410 --> 00:01:24,390 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we are very, very excited to talk to you, 22 00:01:25,430 --> 00:01:27,970 Speaker 2: talk about the hate case, but also because we know 23 00:01:28,010 --> 00:01:31,630 Speaker 2: that you have really dedicated yourself to this cause. And 24 00:01:32,150 --> 00:01:34,650 Speaker 2: maybe you could just give us, tell our listeners a 25 00:01:34,670 --> 00:01:37,870 Speaker 2: little bit about your mission right now. And I know, obviously, 26 00:01:38,550 --> 00:01:40,390 Speaker 2: this is specific to the hate case, but there's a 27 00:01:40,410 --> 00:01:41,450 Speaker 2: bigger picture for you here. 28 00:01:41,990 --> 00:01:42,950 Speaker 4: There is a bigger picture. 29 00:01:43,010 --> 00:01:45,690 Speaker 3: And I think it's always goes beyond the headlines, right? 30 00:01:45,790 --> 00:01:47,690 Speaker 3: A headline loves to get our attention. 31 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,660 Speaker 4: It's clickbait. It says a man snapped, which. 32 00:01:50,540 --> 00:01:52,559 Speaker 3: Feels really good for us because it doesn't feel like 33 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,300 Speaker 3: that can happen to us. Like, I think people want 34 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,940 Speaker 3: to feel comforted, right? When they watch true crime or 35 00:01:57,980 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 3: when they consume it, they're like, oh, okay, I'm learning this. 36 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,380 Speaker 3: So it doesn't happen to me. Like there's just psychologically 37 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,260 Speaker 3: a part of us that does that. And I the 38 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,540 Speaker 3: thing that was really attractive about the hate case and 39 00:02:08,580 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 3: not attractive, but compelling was that this was actually just 40 00:02:13,540 --> 00:02:17,820 Speaker 3: the final act in a very long history of domestic violence. 41 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 3: And not only with Michael hate, but with his father 42 00:02:20,820 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 3: and his grandfather and his great grandfather. And so looking 43 00:02:24,530 --> 00:02:28,710 Speaker 3: at those statistics and diving deep into a case, you know, 44 00:02:29,050 --> 00:02:31,070 Speaker 3: and I love our show for so many reasons, but 45 00:02:31,090 --> 00:02:35,260 Speaker 3: it's not a cold case. These are, this is recent. And, um, 46 00:02:35,980 --> 00:02:42,530 Speaker 3: And these themes are urgent and relevant. This was domestic 47 00:02:42,570 --> 00:02:46,269 Speaker 3: violence that went unaddressed appropriately. 48 00:02:46,330 --> 00:02:48,910 Speaker 4: I mean, it was addressed, but this was the final act. 49 00:02:49,510 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 3: And so really shedding light on the fact that a 50 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:56,620 Speaker 3: family annihilation and this level of familicide is not necessarily, 51 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,870 Speaker 3: you know, rare if you look at the statistics, unfortunately. 52 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,020 Speaker 4: And then what's behind it? So, you know, that's really 53 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 4: why this case spoke to me. 54 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,910 Speaker 3: And nobody had spoken ever to the friends, the family, 55 00:03:09,970 --> 00:03:15,030 Speaker 3: the communities, very close knit. And we were just extremely fortunate. 56 00:03:15,590 --> 00:03:18,630 Speaker 3: Our team has been doing this for several, several years. 57 00:03:18,710 --> 00:03:21,410 Speaker 3: And we were able to really just get to know 58 00:03:21,510 --> 00:03:23,510 Speaker 3: the community and be able to tell the story in 59 00:03:23,550 --> 00:03:28,260 Speaker 3: a very authentic, deep way that goes far beyond the headlines. Yeah. Yeah. 60 00:03:28,940 --> 00:03:31,820 Speaker 2: I have to tell you, I was very drawn in 61 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 2: by Tasha's friends. And I thought that was such, it just, 62 00:03:38,420 --> 00:03:41,580 Speaker 2: I wasn't, it's funny because I knew the story, but 63 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:46,710 Speaker 2: for whatever reason, when I was watching the documentary, I 64 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:51,570 Speaker 2: was surprised by how much murder there was, how much death. 65 00:03:51,670 --> 00:03:53,890 Speaker 1: And I don't know why. I think I was so 66 00:03:53,970 --> 00:03:54,490 Speaker 1: caught up. 67 00:03:54,990 --> 00:03:57,930 Speaker 2: And hearing about Tasha and the way the story was 68 00:03:58,030 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 2: told and connecting, feeling connected to these really lovely women 69 00:04:02,420 --> 00:04:04,980 Speaker 2: who also have now been through so much in terms 70 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 2: of the loss of their friend and the entire family, 71 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 2: this neighborhood family. So listen, we have a true crime doc. 72 00:04:11,190 --> 00:04:15,210 Speaker 2: So we are fascinated with true crime here, but the 73 00:04:15,230 --> 00:04:17,630 Speaker 2: true crime watching these documentaries, the ones that I like 74 00:04:17,650 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 2: best usually have me feeling something or feeling like I'm 75 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,380 Speaker 2: connecting with the people around the story. And I think 76 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 2: you guys, I have to say, did such a great 77 00:04:26,779 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 2: job of that. Was it hard to get Tasha's friends 78 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 2: on board? I know that, I don't know if they 79 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:37,790 Speaker 2: are also in the Mormon community, but, and what obstacles 80 00:04:37,830 --> 00:04:40,450 Speaker 2: you might've had in terms of that, getting, you know, 81 00:04:40,470 --> 00:04:41,790 Speaker 2: people to talk about what had happened. 82 00:04:42,290 --> 00:04:46,529 Speaker 3: Sure. I mean, nobody wants to allow someone into your 83 00:04:46,570 --> 00:04:49,510 Speaker 3: inner circle, not knowing how they're going to tell your story. 84 00:04:49,550 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 3: And We see that with the Yardley Love Special that 85 00:04:52,460 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 3: airs tonight on IED. Yardley was a lacrosse player who 86 00:04:55,339 --> 00:05:00,559 Speaker 3: was my sister's good friend and teammate. And even that, 87 00:05:00,660 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 3: knowing that I knew Yardley. And so even telling that story, 88 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 3: people don't want to rock the boat. People don't want 89 00:05:06,860 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 3: to point fingers. And people don't want, honestly, to open 90 00:05:10,660 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 3: up old wounds, if I'm going to be honest. It's 91 00:05:13,060 --> 00:05:17,820 Speaker 3: just so complex, really, to have an entire community share with. 92 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:19,220 Speaker 4: You and be vulnerable. 93 00:05:20,020 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 3: And it's a privilege that's earned and it's not something 94 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,300 Speaker 3: you can force. And they were, they of course, understandably 95 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 3: were reluctant. They didn't want us to paint the church 96 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 3: in a certain light, which by the way, I have 97 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,339 Speaker 3: nothing but wonderful things to say about the community and 98 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 3: their absolute appreciation and stress on mental health. I mean, 99 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 3: after this happened, the community all came together and they 100 00:05:44,460 --> 00:05:47,970 Speaker 3: did EMDR together because they had all I mean, therapy 101 00:05:47,990 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 3: is just such a huge part of that community. 102 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 4: I learned so much during the process. 103 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:52,260 Speaker 3: Yeah. 104 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:54,980 Speaker 4: Ultimately, that it does take a village. 105 00:05:55,140 --> 00:05:58,300 Speaker 3: And I've never seen– I'm born in Texas, and I 106 00:05:58,339 --> 00:06:00,460 Speaker 3: feel like I grew up in a tight-knit community. But 107 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:05,190 Speaker 3: I have never seen anything like this community, this family, 108 00:06:05,230 --> 00:06:08,330 Speaker 3: the friends. I mean, they all help raise each other's children. 109 00:06:08,450 --> 00:06:10,690 Speaker 3: They go to church in the same neighborhood. They go 110 00:06:10,710 --> 00:06:14,270 Speaker 3: to the same schools. It's such a beautiful place. thing 111 00:06:14,410 --> 00:06:18,330 Speaker 3: to see and to witness and to experience firsthand. I 112 00:06:18,670 --> 00:06:22,589 Speaker 3: have nothing but I was blown away. But that's also 113 00:06:22,670 --> 00:06:25,990 Speaker 3: what rocked it so hard, right? These women who these 114 00:06:26,050 --> 00:06:28,590 Speaker 3: incredible women who are like, maybe all have friends like 115 00:06:28,610 --> 00:06:33,510 Speaker 3: Tasha had, they helped raise these children, and they were 116 00:06:33,570 --> 00:06:36,230 Speaker 3: there to protect them. And it just goes to show 117 00:06:36,310 --> 00:06:40,050 Speaker 3: that no matter how much you have in place, when 118 00:06:40,089 --> 00:06:47,060 Speaker 3: a perpetrator is this abusive, there's really stopping them takes 119 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:48,860 Speaker 3: a lot more education than they had. 120 00:06:49,230 --> 00:06:51,890 Speaker 2: I feel like I got a really, really good education 121 00:06:52,310 --> 00:06:54,969 Speaker 2: watching the documentary. I feel like it was, you didn't 122 00:06:54,990 --> 00:06:57,469 Speaker 2: just tell a story, but you sort of laid out, 123 00:06:57,870 --> 00:07:00,350 Speaker 2: you know, a plan, which I think is so great. 124 00:07:00,450 --> 00:07:05,430 Speaker 2: So anyone watching, you know, there are, there are things 125 00:07:05,470 --> 00:07:10,010 Speaker 2: that happened before the murder, before, you know, this mass murder, 126 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,700 Speaker 2: there were all of these, all of these signs. And 127 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 2: I don't know that, Tasha could have even conceived how 128 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:18,410 Speaker 2: this would have ended up. 129 00:07:18,460 --> 00:07:18,739 Speaker 1: Right. 130 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 2: But, and I think that was also part of it 131 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:25,850 Speaker 2: that I found fascinating. I didn't, it went from Michael 132 00:07:25,930 --> 00:07:32,530 Speaker 2: being so scary and controlling and abusive, but the fact 133 00:07:32,550 --> 00:07:35,790 Speaker 2: that he took the gun and killed all of his 134 00:07:35,870 --> 00:07:40,030 Speaker 2: children and Tasha's mother, for me, that felt like a 135 00:07:40,070 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 2: big jump. And maybe it really wasn't. That was what 136 00:07:42,620 --> 00:07:45,380 Speaker 2: I learned also, right? Like, it feels like from, listen, 137 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,380 Speaker 2: he was abusive to his kids. He was abusive to Tasha, 138 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 2: no doubt. But taking out a gun and killing all 139 00:07:53,140 --> 00:07:57,820 Speaker 2: of them in cold blood, still, I mean, so the 140 00:07:57,860 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 2: warning signs, and then sort of figuring out the warning 141 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,780 Speaker 2: signs were there. You guys have, literally, there's a checklist. 142 00:08:04,500 --> 00:08:07,580 Speaker 2: And to be able to say, this could be coming, right? 143 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 2: If there are four more, if you hit four more 144 00:08:09,860 --> 00:08:13,100 Speaker 2: of these marks, You are this much more likely to 145 00:08:13,140 --> 00:08:16,660 Speaker 2: be the victim of murder, which is so crazy. 146 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,990 Speaker 3: It is. And that's why the lethality assessment, I mean, 147 00:08:20,190 --> 00:08:23,410 Speaker 3: other than the takeaway that we see the headlines, but 148 00:08:23,430 --> 00:08:25,990 Speaker 3: what was happening for so long leading up to this, 149 00:08:26,350 --> 00:08:29,890 Speaker 3: the lethality assessment is my biggest takeaway and what an 150 00:08:29,910 --> 00:08:30,810 Speaker 3: amazing community is. 151 00:08:31,110 --> 00:08:32,310 Speaker 4: The lethality assessment is. 152 00:08:32,230 --> 00:08:35,550 Speaker 3: The one thing that we can take from this horrific, 153 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,579 Speaker 3: unthinkable tragedy and find. 154 00:08:39,420 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 4: A way to help other people. 155 00:08:40,780 --> 00:08:44,860 Speaker 3: I believe every 15-year-old, if you are dating, the lethality 156 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,300 Speaker 3: assessment should be part of your vernacular, period, end of story. 157 00:08:48,710 --> 00:08:49,990 Speaker 3: You know, we go to the doctor, we go to 158 00:08:50,010 --> 00:08:52,550 Speaker 3: the dentist. Why are we doing all these checkups even 159 00:08:52,570 --> 00:08:54,610 Speaker 3: when we're not sick? But we're not doing that with 160 00:08:54,650 --> 00:08:58,449 Speaker 3: our relationships. The lethality assessment to me is everything. 161 00:08:58,570 --> 00:08:59,470 Speaker 4: It's black and white. 162 00:08:59,590 --> 00:09:01,949 Speaker 3: If you're answering honestly, you can see if you're in 163 00:09:01,970 --> 00:09:02,950 Speaker 3: a healthy relationship. 164 00:09:04,130 --> 00:09:06,770 Speaker 4: It's there. It tells you, you know? 165 00:09:06,790 --> 00:09:10,069 Speaker 3: Wow. Mm-hmm. And so I wish everyone knew about this. 166 00:09:10,130 --> 00:09:11,770 Speaker 3: I want everyone to know about it. Like I will 167 00:09:11,809 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 3: not die happy until. 168 00:09:12,770 --> 00:09:14,780 Speaker 4: Everyone knows what a lethality assessment is. 169 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: Well, let's say that. 170 00:09:18,420 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 2: Someone checks off, you know, there are two, you have 171 00:09:22,100 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 2: two check marks and not four. 172 00:09:24,420 --> 00:09:25,300 Speaker 1: Where do you go with that? 173 00:09:25,500 --> 00:09:28,349 Speaker 3: Well, then you're, you're eyes wide open. You're like, and 174 00:09:29,429 --> 00:09:32,010 Speaker 3: one thing about domestic violence is it never gets better. 175 00:09:32,210 --> 00:09:33,750 Speaker 3: And I hate to say that I could not have 176 00:09:33,770 --> 00:09:36,740 Speaker 3: told you this four years ago, I've personally not been 177 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 3: a victim of domestic violence. My passion for this came 178 00:09:39,340 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 3: from betrayal and making sure that my kids were okay, 179 00:09:44,500 --> 00:09:48,020 Speaker 3: just in terms of like repeating familial patterns. But one 180 00:09:48,070 --> 00:09:51,310 Speaker 3: thing I have learned is that domestic violence never gets better. 181 00:09:51,470 --> 00:09:53,010 Speaker 3: And people will say, oh, he's going to change or 182 00:09:53,070 --> 00:09:56,730 Speaker 3: this is going to, it doesn't, it doesn't. So I think, okay, 183 00:09:56,809 --> 00:09:58,229 Speaker 3: I checked two on this list. 184 00:09:58,830 --> 00:09:59,850 Speaker 4: Now I'm aware, right? 185 00:10:00,179 --> 00:10:03,100 Speaker 3: Now it's wide, eyes wide open to see if three 186 00:10:03,140 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 3: presents itself because abusers don't come out all in. Like 187 00:10:08,100 --> 00:10:10,990 Speaker 3: that's what makes it so complex and complicated, right? It's 188 00:10:11,020 --> 00:10:15,349 Speaker 3: like if you open a door 10 times and someone hugs. 189 00:10:15,110 --> 00:10:17,490 Speaker 4: You every time, punches you every time, you're like, I'm out. 190 00:10:17,970 --> 00:10:19,990 Speaker 3: If they hug you five times and punch you five times, 191 00:10:20,010 --> 00:10:22,390 Speaker 3: it kind of keeps you coming back for more. And 192 00:10:22,429 --> 00:10:25,500 Speaker 3: that's why Toxic, our show, is so prolific because it 193 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:29,220 Speaker 3: is a matter of the heart. And matters of the 194 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,460 Speaker 3: heart can be overridden by our gut and our mind. 195 00:10:32,500 --> 00:10:33,300 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. 196 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:35,390 Speaker 4: You know, it's not that easy. 197 00:10:35,410 --> 00:10:36,689 Speaker 1: I know it's complicated. 198 00:10:36,750 --> 00:10:39,489 Speaker 2: And yeah, they had all these kids together and the 199 00:10:39,730 --> 00:10:40,770 Speaker 2: community and everything. 200 00:10:41,530 --> 00:10:43,250 Speaker 1: Built this life together. 201 00:10:43,270 --> 00:10:45,410 Speaker 2: It is. It's complicated, but I guess it can't be 202 00:10:45,429 --> 00:10:48,660 Speaker 2: that complicated in terms of preventing these types of tragedies. 203 00:10:48,700 --> 00:11:04,350 Speaker 2: It has to maybe be more black and white. You know, 204 00:11:04,370 --> 00:11:08,510 Speaker 2: when you were piecing everything together, what were the first 205 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 2: signs that you saw, like the first sort of things 206 00:11:12,300 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 2: that you saw out of Michael that had your bells ringing, 207 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,380 Speaker 2: that you were like, oh, you know, you knew the story, 208 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:19,830 Speaker 2: but I'm saying in your reporting of it. 209 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 4: Yeah, sure. 210 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 3: It was, well, first and foremost, it was his father, 211 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:29,900 Speaker 3: his father's suicide and really taking things that had happened 212 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:31,020 Speaker 3: and blaming everyone else. 213 00:11:31,100 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 4: It's a lack of accountability, right? 214 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:35,710 Speaker 3: And we learned that with narcissists and narcissism is. 215 00:11:35,660 --> 00:11:37,860 Speaker 4: Really thrown around So freely. 216 00:11:37,900 --> 00:11:40,990 Speaker 3: I think during COVID, we learned a lot of language 217 00:11:41,090 --> 00:11:45,449 Speaker 3: to help us deal with relationships, but sometimes those are overused. 218 00:11:45,550 --> 00:11:50,470 Speaker 3: And during this investigation, I learned so much about the 219 00:11:50,490 --> 00:11:54,250 Speaker 3: different types of narcissism and how they present themselves. So Michael, 220 00:11:54,290 --> 00:11:57,500 Speaker 3: for example, was a covert narcissist. He loved everyone in 221 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,980 Speaker 3: the community to see him as a beacon, right? 222 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 4: To see him as a helpful person. 223 00:12:01,860 --> 00:12:05,079 Speaker 3: But behind closed doors, he was awful to his family. 224 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 3: And I think we all kind of know those people. 225 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:13,010 Speaker 3: I mean, since doing this story, I'm like looking around 226 00:12:13,050 --> 00:12:17,050 Speaker 3: a little bit in my friend circles and identifying some 227 00:12:17,090 --> 00:12:18,350 Speaker 3: people with those behaviors. 228 00:12:18,370 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I definitely have been easy prey to 229 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,660 Speaker 2: narcissists my whole life. And I've learned so much about narcissism. 230 00:12:26,740 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 2: And it's interesting the different types. I mean, I don't 231 00:12:30,220 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 2: know if Michael could have been also categorized as a 232 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:33,420 Speaker 2: malignant narcissist. 233 00:12:33,500 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 4: Sure, sure. 234 00:12:34,460 --> 00:12:37,929 Speaker 2: But something that I feel like does bind narcissists together 235 00:12:38,130 --> 00:12:39,610 Speaker 2: is this lack of empathy. 236 00:12:40,010 --> 00:12:40,210 Speaker 3: Sure. 237 00:12:40,230 --> 00:12:43,730 Speaker 2: This real lack, right, of feeling for the other person. 238 00:12:44,590 --> 00:12:48,460 Speaker 2: And so, you know, you could feel that in him. 239 00:12:48,750 --> 00:12:52,199 Speaker 2: But he also was clever. I felt like Michael did 240 00:12:52,220 --> 00:12:55,100 Speaker 2: a good job of when it was going to serve him, 241 00:12:55,140 --> 00:12:59,420 Speaker 2: pretending that he was taking accountability, right? And even recording 242 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:00,300 Speaker 2: himself doing that. 243 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:01,730 Speaker 3: Right. But, yeah. Yeah. 244 00:13:02,340 --> 00:13:05,380 Speaker 4: That was such an interesting piece. It's like he left 245 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 4: this all on his phone, knowing that he was killing himself. 246 00:13:10,260 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 3: And it was like almost a delusion of thinking this 247 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 3: is going to prove my point. That in the suicide note, 248 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,490 Speaker 3: tell us everything we need to know about the lack 249 00:13:21,500 --> 00:13:23,020 Speaker 3: of accountability with Michael. Right. 250 00:13:23,809 --> 00:13:27,010 Speaker 2: And that he cared so much that even after ending 251 00:13:27,030 --> 00:13:29,990 Speaker 2: the lives of his family and himself, he still cared. 252 00:13:30,610 --> 00:13:32,390 Speaker 2: was worried about what people were going to think of him. 253 00:13:32,850 --> 00:13:34,610 Speaker 4: Of course. And then look at the obituary that his 254 00:13:34,650 --> 00:13:36,630 Speaker 4: mother wrote. Plus she's still alive. 255 00:13:36,650 --> 00:13:38,750 Speaker 3: And that was one of the challenges we had in 256 00:13:38,790 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 3: the community is that she, you know, is a wonderful 257 00:13:42,100 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 3: person in the community by all intents and purposes, but 258 00:13:45,860 --> 00:13:48,620 Speaker 3: like nobody really wanted to rock that boat and look 259 00:13:48,660 --> 00:13:51,420 Speaker 3: at that. And I look at that in men in 260 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:55,220 Speaker 3: general is like, if their moms can write that about them, 261 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:57,660 Speaker 3: what is happening under the surface? 262 00:13:58,150 --> 00:14:00,300 Speaker 4: Yeah. And, So it's all. 263 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,860 Speaker 3: So complex, but it's never been more poignant and never 264 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:08,469 Speaker 3: been more important with the Cornell 7 and everything that's 265 00:14:08,510 --> 00:14:12,970 Speaker 3: happening now to look at these patterns and how are 266 00:14:13,290 --> 00:14:18,110 Speaker 3: we raising these boys, hopefully men? What are we looking 267 00:14:18,130 --> 00:14:20,380 Speaker 3: at in our own patterns? Like Jennifer just said, I 268 00:14:20,630 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 3: attract narcissists. 269 00:14:22,220 --> 00:14:22,820 Speaker 4: What is that? 270 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:24,940 Speaker 3: What is their relationship with their mom? I mean, this 271 00:14:25,020 --> 00:14:28,590 Speaker 3: is why It can't just be a headline. There's so 272 00:14:28,670 --> 00:14:31,630 Speaker 3: much more here, and it's almost an epidemic. 273 00:14:32,170 --> 00:14:33,010 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. 274 00:14:34,030 --> 00:14:37,730 Speaker 2: And again, when you were telling the story, right, the 275 00:14:37,770 --> 00:14:40,890 Speaker 2: parts where you were like, ding, ding, ding. Tell me 276 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 2: a couple of those instances where you were like, oh, 277 00:14:45,060 --> 00:14:48,140 Speaker 2: this is textbook, what Michael's doing right now. Sure. 278 00:14:48,340 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 3: I mean, listen, I think the presentation at church every Sunday, 279 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 3: the presentation to the Um, the fact that Tasha couldn't 280 00:14:58,380 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 3: have a conversation within her home because she thought everything 281 00:15:01,260 --> 00:15:06,420 Speaker 3: was bugged. Uh, he took everyone's devices. Every iCloud went 282 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,390 Speaker 3: to him. She couldn't have a normal text conversation. Um, 283 00:15:10,690 --> 00:15:12,650 Speaker 3: and again, that goes back to the different forms. 284 00:15:12,470 --> 00:15:13,250 Speaker 4: Of abuse, right? 285 00:15:13,290 --> 00:15:18,470 Speaker 3: There's emotional, there's physical, there's control, all this control, coercion, isolation, like, and, 286 00:15:18,710 --> 00:15:22,310 Speaker 3: and She really, really tried to make it work. And 287 00:15:22,350 --> 00:15:23,990 Speaker 3: I don't know if you remember, but they were separated 288 00:15:24,030 --> 00:15:26,130 Speaker 3: for a moment and then they went back and tried. 289 00:15:25,990 --> 00:15:28,210 Speaker 4: To make it work with another child, with their fifth child, Gavin. 290 00:15:28,670 --> 00:15:33,910 Speaker 3: And I think that's really, really tricky when you already 291 00:15:33,950 --> 00:15:34,890 Speaker 3: know it's bad. 292 00:15:34,910 --> 00:15:38,090 Speaker 4: Yes, there's so much. There's so much there, right? 293 00:15:38,210 --> 00:15:42,710 Speaker 3: And just the fact that he really wanted everything to 294 00:15:42,750 --> 00:15:43,550 Speaker 3: be picture perfect. 295 00:15:43,630 --> 00:15:45,850 Speaker 4: The food on the table when you come home. 296 00:15:46,270 --> 00:15:49,670 Speaker 2: Yes, and he was, the thing is, guys, listeners, I 297 00:15:49,710 --> 00:15:53,190 Speaker 2: don't know. This is not necessarily their symptom of narcissism, right? 298 00:15:53,930 --> 00:15:55,450 Speaker 2: Because it's a symptom of a lot of things. But 299 00:15:55,510 --> 00:15:58,550 Speaker 2: the control thing, it was so frustrating to watch. And 300 00:15:58,610 --> 00:16:01,670 Speaker 2: even hearing that he wouldn't let her refurbish the wood table. 301 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 2: He had all of this money. And most of our listeners, 302 00:16:05,140 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 2: I hope, have already seen the film. But the control 303 00:16:09,540 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 2: of it, the way that she couldn't, she had to 304 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 2: show him her grocery bills. Those were hell-tale signs to me. Again, 305 00:16:17,100 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 2: not that it was going to end. What I found 306 00:16:19,140 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 2: so interesting is that the way that you all presented 307 00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 2: the story, you were guiding us as viewers to see 308 00:16:27,220 --> 00:16:30,710 Speaker 2: these signs that would end in something lethal, right? 309 00:16:30,790 --> 00:16:34,090 Speaker 1: And there is a checklist. And I would have not ever. 310 00:16:33,970 --> 00:16:37,810 Speaker 2: Thought that those types of things could mean that at 311 00:16:37,850 --> 00:16:41,990 Speaker 2: the end of the story, there's going to be murder, right? 312 00:16:42,050 --> 00:16:45,270 Speaker 2: But like, to be that aware, I think is so 313 00:16:45,370 --> 00:16:47,850 Speaker 2: important and such a good message. So it might not 314 00:16:47,910 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 2: seem like such a big deal. Your partner won't let 315 00:16:51,550 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 2: you refurbish a table that the kids have destroyed. And 316 00:16:54,820 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 2: it's not like you're, you ask for much and you only, 317 00:16:56,780 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 2: it puts you on a budget for Christmas of, you know, 318 00:16:59,740 --> 00:17:00,700 Speaker 2: a ridiculous budget. 319 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:02,750 Speaker 1: And it has to see all those, all those. 320 00:17:02,650 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 2: Things wouldn't necessarily tick off Unless they got violent, kick 321 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,370 Speaker 2: off murder, and maybe they should. And maybe it's like 322 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:13,250 Speaker 2: this could happen. These are signs of something lethal. 323 00:17:13,830 --> 00:17:16,950 Speaker 3: If you're in a relationship, yes, take a lethality assessment. 324 00:17:17,350 --> 00:17:20,220 Speaker 3: And then you're also aware of what is to come, right? Again, 325 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 3: going back to my point earlier, things don't ever get better. 326 00:17:22,820 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 3: So say, oh, I've only picked up two or three 327 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,770 Speaker 3: of these. But, like, I'm going to be aware if 328 00:17:28,109 --> 00:17:31,230 Speaker 3: he starts controlling or she or your partner starts controlling 329 00:17:31,250 --> 00:17:34,189 Speaker 3: your electronic devices. And the fact of the matter is 330 00:17:34,910 --> 00:17:38,239 Speaker 3: this lethality assessment is universal. I have friends who have 331 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 3: houses in the Hamptons, who have houses everywhere, whose husbands 332 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 3: are financially abusive. And I think it knows no bounds 333 00:17:47,220 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 3: in terms of socioeconomic status. It knows no bounds in 334 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:55,100 Speaker 3: terms of background. This test is black and white. And 335 00:17:55,140 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 3: that's why it's so important. Because if you're answering honestly, 336 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,220 Speaker 3: you know where you stand in terms of safety. 337 00:18:01,820 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so interesting. 338 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,100 Speaker 2: I think it's, tell me a little bit about how 339 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 2: the test was formed, who formed the test. And I 340 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 2: know you talked about. 341 00:18:09,540 --> 00:18:12,100 Speaker 3: I wasn't aware of it, to be honest. I need 342 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,140 Speaker 3: to do some more research. So I've only learned about 343 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 3: it here. And then I thought, okay, is it just 344 00:18:16,660 --> 00:18:19,100 Speaker 3: a Utah thing, like a state thing? And then I 345 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,159 Speaker 3: did a deeper dive, and it's actually been in the 346 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:27,290 Speaker 3: system but not required across the board nationally. So it 347 00:18:27,310 --> 00:18:29,550 Speaker 3: would be my dream and my goal to have that 348 00:18:29,590 --> 00:18:34,530 Speaker 3: lethality assessment taken to every CPS call, every DV call. 349 00:18:34,970 --> 00:18:37,550 Speaker 4: And then for, honestly, people to have it in their 350 00:18:37,590 --> 00:18:38,150 Speaker 4: note section. 351 00:18:38,930 --> 00:18:43,810 Speaker 3: That is, like, I could be a happy person if everyone, 352 00:18:44,250 --> 00:18:46,970 Speaker 3: lethality assessment was something that people talked about at dinner parties. 353 00:18:47,510 --> 00:18:50,530 Speaker 3: at coffee with their girlfriends, at workouts, at Pilates? Like, 354 00:18:50,590 --> 00:18:53,890 Speaker 3: have you taken it? Do you take it regularly? 355 00:18:54,410 --> 00:18:54,630 Speaker 1: Right. 356 00:18:54,910 --> 00:18:59,750 Speaker 2: What do you think that law enforcement could have done differently? 357 00:18:59,770 --> 00:19:01,910 Speaker 2: And I know you have rave reviews about this community. 358 00:19:02,210 --> 00:19:05,770 Speaker 2: And I know that I'm assuming the law enforcement is 359 00:19:06,030 --> 00:19:08,430 Speaker 2: also tight knit in terms of, you know, being part 360 00:19:08,490 --> 00:19:11,150 Speaker 2: of the community and they know each other maybe more 361 00:19:11,170 --> 00:19:15,149 Speaker 2: than most communities would. I mean, I'm guessing sort of, 362 00:19:15,210 --> 00:19:17,330 Speaker 2: but I But tell me what you think could have 363 00:19:17,369 --> 00:19:20,490 Speaker 2: happened differently there. When you look at the totality of 364 00:19:20,540 --> 00:19:23,580 Speaker 2: the story, do you feel like there was any missed 365 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 2: opportunity in terms of law enforcement not maybe interviewing Michael? 366 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, listen, the legal system is a system. 367 00:19:30,020 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 3: The justice system, I always say, it's just a system. 368 00:19:32,340 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 3: It does not necessarily promise justice. 369 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:37,590 Speaker 4: I mean, it's a system. 370 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:40,629 Speaker 3: I will say that I didn't feel like there was 371 00:19:40,670 --> 00:19:44,180 Speaker 3: any corruption, which is a big thing to say for 372 00:19:44,220 --> 00:19:44,940 Speaker 3: a small community. 373 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 1: I didn't see corruption either. 374 00:19:46,470 --> 00:19:46,710 Speaker 2: No. 375 00:19:46,850 --> 00:19:49,830 Speaker 3: And it wasn't, nothing was malicious or intentional. 376 00:19:50,390 --> 00:19:50,910 Speaker 4: Overlooked. 377 00:19:51,050 --> 00:19:53,870 Speaker 3: I will say the communication between the school and law 378 00:19:53,890 --> 00:19:59,460 Speaker 3: enforcement felt very cohesive. I think Mike Bleak is wonderful 379 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,500 Speaker 3: and I think he cares so much, but things get, 380 00:20:03,140 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 3: it slipped through the cracks. And we see that a 381 00:20:05,420 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 3: lot in all of toxic. I mean, whether you file 382 00:20:08,460 --> 00:20:12,110 Speaker 3: something in one especially on the East Coast where there 383 00:20:12,130 --> 00:20:15,290 Speaker 3: are so many different jurisdictions close by where you file 384 00:20:15,330 --> 00:20:18,310 Speaker 3: something here and they are not communicating with something, you know, 385 00:20:18,369 --> 00:20:19,870 Speaker 3: another jurisdiction three miles away. 386 00:20:19,930 --> 00:20:20,530 Speaker 4: We see that a lot. 387 00:20:20,550 --> 00:20:22,369 Speaker 1: We've spoken about that, another true crime. 388 00:20:22,650 --> 00:20:25,710 Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, I think, like, 389 00:20:26,390 --> 00:20:28,770 Speaker 4: they did well, I would say. 390 00:20:28,790 --> 00:20:29,470 Speaker 3: Yeah. 391 00:20:30,030 --> 00:20:33,430 Speaker 2: The only thing I will say is that, again, I'm 392 00:20:34,430 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 2: not sure of Utah exactly what the protocol is in Utah. 393 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,340 Speaker 2: The only thing that I felt was really upsetting to 394 00:20:42,380 --> 00:20:50,020 Speaker 2: watch was that a child making those accusations and complaining 395 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,940 Speaker 2: like that about her father over and over again. I 396 00:20:54,770 --> 00:20:58,350 Speaker 2: couldn't understand why maybe earlier on the children weren't taken 397 00:20:58,590 --> 00:21:02,790 Speaker 2: out of the home. And so we have that question 398 00:21:02,850 --> 00:21:03,190 Speaker 2: for you. 399 00:21:03,430 --> 00:21:05,130 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, that's the last thing Tasha wanted. She 400 00:21:05,170 --> 00:21:08,190 Speaker 3: stayed in this relationship. So she could have her children 401 00:21:08,230 --> 00:21:11,550 Speaker 3: with her, right? So she was running interference, which I 402 00:21:11,590 --> 00:21:14,570 Speaker 3: think we do as women to keep your family together. 403 00:21:15,170 --> 00:21:17,100 Speaker 4: But you're right. I mean, are they thinking it's a 404 00:21:17,140 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 4: moody teenager? 405 00:21:18,180 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 3: If the mom's not validating it necessarily, like, you know, 406 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 3: nothing is in a vacuum. I think, and listen, no, 407 00:21:25,740 --> 00:21:28,710 Speaker 3: I'm not saying everything went well because the third CPS 408 00:21:29,010 --> 00:21:32,150 Speaker 3: call could have been, but at the end of the day, 409 00:21:32,290 --> 00:21:35,970 Speaker 3: when somebody wants to do this, I feel that they 410 00:21:36,270 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 3: are going to do it. 411 00:21:37,470 --> 00:21:40,790 Speaker 1: There's no blame. We're not victim blaming here. Or not 412 00:21:40,830 --> 00:21:42,630 Speaker 1: only just not victim blaming. I mean, I'm not talking 413 00:21:42,670 --> 00:21:43,729 Speaker 1: about Tasha. 414 00:21:43,790 --> 00:21:47,170 Speaker 2: I just, it was curious to me that Maisie was 415 00:21:47,369 --> 00:21:50,490 Speaker 2: so young and kept making these complaints. And that even 416 00:21:50,510 --> 00:21:55,609 Speaker 2: if Tasha had corroborated Michael's story or not, that the 417 00:21:55,670 --> 00:21:57,129 Speaker 2: children weren't removed. 418 00:21:57,410 --> 00:21:58,330 Speaker 4: No, you're right. 419 00:21:58,710 --> 00:22:01,629 Speaker 3: You're right. I think that probably has to do with the, Well, 420 00:22:01,670 --> 00:22:03,930 Speaker 3: I don't know because I go back and forth. If 421 00:22:03,970 --> 00:22:05,669 Speaker 3: this happened in LA, I live in LA. If this 422 00:22:05,690 --> 00:22:08,649 Speaker 3: happened in LA, I don't think the attention would have 423 00:22:08,670 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 3: been paid to it, right, in a bigger city. Or 424 00:22:11,260 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 3: would it have just been more like black and white? 425 00:22:15,020 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 3: I mean, Dustin, one of the police officers who really 426 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 3: was the first on the scene, his son was in 427 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,640 Speaker 3: the same class as Ammon. And he knew that Ammon 428 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:28,270 Speaker 3: had received this Lego ship. And so his son wanted 429 00:22:28,290 --> 00:22:30,450 Speaker 3: the same one. He walks in, he sees the Lego ship, 430 00:22:30,490 --> 00:22:34,790 Speaker 3: and then you know, Ammon's body. And so I have to, 431 00:22:35,910 --> 00:22:37,729 Speaker 3: it's just such a different thing than when you look 432 00:22:37,750 --> 00:22:39,830 Speaker 3: at different cities and just different jurisdictions. 433 00:22:39,869 --> 00:22:40,330 Speaker 4: But you're right. 434 00:22:40,390 --> 00:22:43,090 Speaker 3: I mean, this is where we learn and this is 435 00:22:43,109 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 3: where we can hopefully save lives is to shine light 436 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 3: on the discrepancies of what could have happened should they 437 00:22:50,900 --> 00:22:53,980 Speaker 3: have taken the kids away or would Tasha have, you know, 438 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 3: died on that hill to make sure. I mean, that's 439 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 3: why she was still suffering is to keep her kids 440 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:00,730 Speaker 3: under one roof. right. 441 00:23:00,750 --> 00:23:17,530 Speaker 2: And he wouldn't leave and, and all of that. So 442 00:23:18,070 --> 00:23:21,389 Speaker 2: Hasha was brave and she did in fact file for 443 00:23:21,430 --> 00:23:26,010 Speaker 2: divorce and which did not have been easy. I think maybe, 444 00:23:26,230 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 2: maybe even harder being part of that particular community, but 445 00:23:30,990 --> 00:23:33,449 Speaker 2: she was brave and we heard it in her voice 446 00:23:33,700 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 2: and we heard those recorded conversations and she didn't sound afraid. 447 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,739 Speaker 2: She sounded really, really impressive. Once she served him with 448 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 2: papers though, is there anything different? Again, this is not 449 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,459 Speaker 2: victim shaming. This is only educating, right? Like, is there 450 00:23:49,500 --> 00:23:51,500 Speaker 2: anything that you think Tasha could have done? She had 451 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,020 Speaker 2: her mother come would it have been better if she 452 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,459 Speaker 2: had gone for her parents? Maybe Michael would have followed them. 453 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 2: I'm not saying it would have made the difference, but 454 00:23:58,380 --> 00:24:01,070 Speaker 2: if we're talking to our, to listeners, right? Is there 455 00:24:01,109 --> 00:24:04,370 Speaker 2: anything that you think she could have done differently that 456 00:24:04,550 --> 00:24:05,770 Speaker 2: may have changed the outcome? 457 00:24:06,410 --> 00:24:08,629 Speaker 4: It all goes back to financial control and abuse. 458 00:24:09,330 --> 00:24:10,770 Speaker 3: If she knew that he had four and a half 459 00:24:10,810 --> 00:24:14,300 Speaker 3: million dollars in the bank, it was technically supposed to 460 00:24:14,380 --> 00:24:15,060 Speaker 3: also be her. 461 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:15,580 Speaker 4: It's right. 462 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 3: She's been that she, she, if she knew the financial situation, 463 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,420 Speaker 3: she would have been fighting so hard for that house. 464 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,100 Speaker 4: She wouldn't have been fighting so hard for the. 465 00:24:26,100 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 3: Only, like only like worldly possession. She thought that she 466 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,780 Speaker 3: had left other than her kids. If she were aware 467 00:24:31,940 --> 00:24:35,780 Speaker 3: of that and, and was not like new, what was 468 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:37,740 Speaker 3: at stake? I think she would have said, okay, we're 469 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,100 Speaker 3: going to go to a hotel. You can stay in 470 00:24:40,140 --> 00:24:42,869 Speaker 3: the house and who knows, this is all hearsay. And 471 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,610 Speaker 3: I'm in no position to say like, I'm just talking. 472 00:24:45,690 --> 00:24:46,890 Speaker 1: I know that. Yeah, I know. 473 00:24:46,950 --> 00:24:49,030 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm just trying to think of like looking 474 00:24:49,130 --> 00:24:52,830 Speaker 2: at it, right. Just to give advice to, um, you know, 475 00:24:52,910 --> 00:24:56,619 Speaker 2: to others, to other women that are suffering. And I 476 00:24:56,630 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 2: don't know if there is an answer. 477 00:24:58,060 --> 00:25:00,740 Speaker 3: Well, we listen to our lawyers. We listen to our 478 00:25:00,780 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 3: lawyers and there's no playbook for divorce. There's no playbook 479 00:25:03,220 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 3: for marriage. There's no playbook for any of this. And 480 00:25:05,260 --> 00:25:07,980 Speaker 3: that's why I was obsessed with talking to every family 481 00:25:08,020 --> 00:25:11,180 Speaker 3: separation therapist because I couldn't read one book that would 482 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:16,120 Speaker 3: promise me that my children wouldn't be traumatized from divorce 483 00:25:16,570 --> 00:25:17,510 Speaker 3: by itself, right? 484 00:25:17,530 --> 00:25:18,290 Speaker 4: Forget everything else. 485 00:25:19,410 --> 00:25:22,230 Speaker 3: And so we listened to lawyers. Her lawyer told her, 486 00:25:22,910 --> 00:25:26,170 Speaker 3: you're forfeiting basically possession if you leave. 487 00:25:26,670 --> 00:25:27,330 Speaker 4: He won't leave. 488 00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:31,609 Speaker 3: And so it's, I think, find resources maybe outside of 489 00:25:31,630 --> 00:25:37,990 Speaker 3: your community that can offer different perspectives and then be 490 00:25:38,100 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 3: super financially aware because that is the most binding thing 491 00:25:42,460 --> 00:25:44,860 Speaker 3: is if you don't know your finances. 492 00:25:45,340 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: It's going to be different in every state. 493 00:25:48,060 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 2: In Utah, in terms of getting a restraining order, I mean, 494 00:25:51,580 --> 00:25:54,630 Speaker 2: I think she was probably... She was headed that way, right? 495 00:25:54,910 --> 00:25:58,020 Speaker 2: But was there... Is there more than... Did there have 496 00:25:58,040 --> 00:25:59,580 Speaker 2: to be a certain amount of reports in order to 497 00:25:59,619 --> 00:26:01,120 Speaker 2: get one? Does there have to be a certain amount 498 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,640 Speaker 2: of evidence? And could she not get that? 499 00:26:05,580 --> 00:26:08,930 Speaker 3: Well, I think across the board, what we know about 500 00:26:08,970 --> 00:26:10,770 Speaker 3: restraining orders is that a lot of time it's just 501 00:26:10,830 --> 00:26:13,610 Speaker 3: a piece of paper. And again, I just have learned 502 00:26:13,670 --> 00:26:16,189 Speaker 3: all this in the last four years in hosting and 503 00:26:16,210 --> 00:26:21,010 Speaker 3: executive producing this show. I think... she also wanted the 504 00:26:21,070 --> 00:26:24,010 Speaker 3: kids to have like at least the dad present from 505 00:26:24,030 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 3: what I understand, you know, she didn't want to light 506 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,739 Speaker 3: a match and throw it on a gasoline fire. Like 507 00:26:29,780 --> 00:26:32,780 Speaker 3: she didn't want to blow everything up in my opinion. 508 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 3: I think she was trying to do it as well 509 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 3: as she knew how with the guidance of her friends 510 00:26:37,980 --> 00:26:38,660 Speaker 3: and her family. 511 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 4: I don't know. 512 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,340 Speaker 2: Living in fear and living in absolute object terror. And, 513 00:26:44,900 --> 00:26:48,270 Speaker 2: you know, and I think what's, But you are providing 514 00:26:48,290 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 2: a roadmap here. This is not just a documentary telling 515 00:26:50,780 --> 00:26:55,360 Speaker 2: the story, right? We're looking at a documentary that is 516 00:26:56,300 --> 00:27:00,820 Speaker 2: trying to provide an instruction manual. If you feel some 517 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,900 Speaker 2: of this, here's the test you take. Here's what you 518 00:27:03,940 --> 00:27:08,510 Speaker 2: can do to save yourself and your children, right? So 519 00:27:08,970 --> 00:27:11,210 Speaker 2: I'm looking at it and I'm looking at all the 520 00:27:11,470 --> 00:27:14,110 Speaker 2: decisions that she made out of desperation, fear, and love. 521 00:27:14,740 --> 00:27:15,940 Speaker 1: And love of her children. 522 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:20,380 Speaker 2: And I'm wondering, you know, what could she have done 523 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:21,869 Speaker 2: to take in, what else could she have done to 524 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,210 Speaker 2: take in her power back without again for the 18th time? 525 00:27:25,530 --> 00:27:26,550 Speaker 2: And this is not about blame. 526 00:27:26,710 --> 00:27:28,729 Speaker 4: No, of course it's learning. We're learning. 527 00:27:29,210 --> 00:27:31,170 Speaker 3: And I think that's the only way to make sense 528 00:27:31,210 --> 00:27:32,629 Speaker 3: of something that's so senseless. 529 00:27:33,369 --> 00:27:34,649 Speaker 1: Yeah. 530 00:27:34,730 --> 00:27:37,360 Speaker 4: And I think it's documentation, documentation, documentation. 531 00:27:37,390 --> 00:27:39,699 Speaker 3: And we talk about this across the board with our 532 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,969 Speaker 3: survivors on toxic is You have to document and you 533 00:27:43,990 --> 00:27:46,669 Speaker 3: have to advocate. You are your only advocate for yourself 534 00:27:46,730 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 3: and your children. And when it is to this point, 535 00:27:51,650 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 3: and again, that's where the lethality assessment, when you're like, 536 00:27:53,630 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 3: I am answering four or more, it is now like 537 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 3: very cut and dry. It's not going to get better. 538 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,060 Speaker 3: We're not living in optimism land. It is now protection 539 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 3: and accountability. And again, if you're answering two to the 540 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,580 Speaker 3: lethality assessment, beware. Okay, I have three or four. Now 541 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 3: it's time to lock in. And I always see this. 542 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,640 Speaker 3: The ones that really make it are the ones that 543 00:28:20,660 --> 00:28:25,689 Speaker 3: are documenting everything, communicating, and fighting for themselves and their children. 544 00:28:25,730 --> 00:28:26,810 Speaker 3: And I always say, if you're not going to do 545 00:28:26,830 --> 00:28:29,650 Speaker 3: it for yourself, do it for your kids. Because as 546 00:28:29,730 --> 00:28:34,250 Speaker 3: moms and as women, and also dads, we'll do things 547 00:28:34,310 --> 00:28:36,670 Speaker 3: for our children that we don't necessarily do for ourselves. 548 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,780 Speaker 4: But documentation is everything. Okay. 549 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 2: Okay. 550 00:28:40,180 --> 00:28:40,820 Speaker 1: That's good to know. 551 00:28:41,270 --> 00:28:44,610 Speaker 2: So tell me, before we wrap, tell me a little 552 00:28:44,630 --> 00:28:47,390 Speaker 2: bit about, I know that the case helped spark some 553 00:28:47,430 --> 00:28:50,510 Speaker 2: reform in Utah. So can you tell me about some 554 00:28:50,530 --> 00:28:53,770 Speaker 2: of the changes that have come about from this tragedy? 555 00:28:54,750 --> 00:28:54,990 Speaker 4: Sure. 556 00:28:55,070 --> 00:28:57,540 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, this community had never seen homicide. 557 00:28:57,930 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 3: They had never, it was new to them. Luckily with, 558 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,030 Speaker 3: or not luckily, but as a result of the The 559 00:29:05,070 --> 00:29:07,890 Speaker 3: Vegas shootings that happened a couple of years prior, they 560 00:29:07,970 --> 00:29:12,190 Speaker 3: had some sort of sense of community triage where they 561 00:29:12,230 --> 00:29:15,570 Speaker 3: did a lot of, they did EMDR as a community. 562 00:29:15,690 --> 00:29:17,210 Speaker 3: Everyone had gone through the same thing. And so they 563 00:29:17,250 --> 00:29:20,050 Speaker 3: did like group therapy, which I thought was really beautiful 564 00:29:20,110 --> 00:29:22,430 Speaker 3: to see. And a lot of conversations and a lot 565 00:29:22,450 --> 00:29:26,479 Speaker 3: of these children were afraid of their dads, right? As kids, 566 00:29:26,620 --> 00:29:28,340 Speaker 3: all you know is what you hear and see from 567 00:29:28,380 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 3: your classmates. So some of them didn't want to sleep 568 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 3: alone or didn't want to sleep with their dad and 569 00:29:34,130 --> 00:29:37,830 Speaker 3: it was really interesting to hear the reaction, which also 570 00:29:38,030 --> 00:29:43,150 Speaker 3: makes sense. So I will say beyond a legal standpoint, 571 00:29:43,330 --> 00:29:49,459 Speaker 3: a lot of therapeutic, like bonding and community healing, and 572 00:29:49,540 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 3: then really people looking at what happened and what could 573 00:29:52,380 --> 00:29:57,350 Speaker 3: have changed. I do believe From a state perspective, I don't, 574 00:29:57,390 --> 00:29:59,290 Speaker 3: I'm not aware of that right now. I can just 575 00:29:59,330 --> 00:30:02,860 Speaker 3: tell you from the local perspective how differently the police 576 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 3: department approaches these cases. And really how it sets them 577 00:30:09,500 --> 00:30:12,780 Speaker 3: off in a way to really look at other members 578 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:17,030 Speaker 3: of the community that had the same tendencies and focus 579 00:30:17,250 --> 00:30:20,490 Speaker 3: on them in terms of this could also happen. Good. 580 00:30:20,990 --> 00:30:22,150 Speaker 4: Isn't that so interesting? 581 00:30:22,210 --> 00:30:24,610 Speaker 3: And again, I look at LA or New York and 582 00:30:24,650 --> 00:30:27,030 Speaker 3: I'm like, I don't, that wouldn't have happened. I'm not, 583 00:30:27,490 --> 00:30:30,730 Speaker 3: I sound like I'm a freaking PR person for Enoch, Utah. 584 00:30:31,010 --> 00:30:33,090 Speaker 3: I'm not, but it was just such a beautiful thing 585 00:30:33,110 --> 00:30:34,650 Speaker 3: that I had never experienced. 586 00:30:35,170 --> 00:30:37,890 Speaker 1: I was touched by it just as a viewer. 587 00:30:37,910 --> 00:30:41,570 Speaker 2: I was touched by these women and it felt like 588 00:30:41,590 --> 00:30:43,690 Speaker 2: they were a big family, right? 589 00:30:43,710 --> 00:30:45,030 Speaker 4: Exactly, exactly. 590 00:30:45,670 --> 00:30:51,410 Speaker 3: And I will say like Mike Bleak, the lead detective, He. 591 00:30:51,350 --> 00:30:52,630 Speaker 4: Was in L.A. last week. 592 00:30:52,650 --> 00:30:54,790 Speaker 3: He came to my sister's 40th birthday party at my home. 593 00:30:54,870 --> 00:30:56,730 Speaker 3: I had a big birthday party, and Mike came over. 594 00:30:56,750 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 4: And, like, they are exactly who they say they are. 595 00:31:00,130 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 4: And he says, like, there are three people. 596 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,660 Speaker 3: In this community I have got my eyes on. We're 597 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,660 Speaker 3: checking on their families. And I think, like, if you can't, 598 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 3: you know, whatever happens legally at a state level and 599 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 3: a federal level, we have to take care of our communities. 600 00:31:14,740 --> 00:31:17,990 Speaker 3: This has been, obviously, a huge magnifying glass in terms 601 00:31:18,130 --> 00:31:20,910 Speaker 3: of making sure it doesn't happen again. And now it's 602 00:31:21,050 --> 00:31:24,550 Speaker 3: our job doing things like this to spread the word 603 00:31:24,710 --> 00:31:27,730 Speaker 3: so people can see those signs, can take the lethality assessment, 604 00:31:28,150 --> 00:31:31,330 Speaker 3: and can ensure that regardless of your community, this doesn't 605 00:31:31,370 --> 00:31:31,970 Speaker 3: happen again. 606 00:31:31,990 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. 607 00:31:33,650 --> 00:31:37,020 Speaker 2: Will you give us, please, before we say unfortunately goodbye, 608 00:31:37,230 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 2: some information about where people can reach out? 609 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:41,740 Speaker 4: Sure, of course. 610 00:31:41,780 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 3: We're on ID. If you have any questions about lethality assessment, 611 00:31:45,140 --> 00:31:48,690 Speaker 3: you can literally Google it. You can watch the hate special. 612 00:31:48,970 --> 00:31:51,350 Speaker 4: And the. 613 00:31:53,290 --> 00:31:56,970 Speaker 3: Thing that really is the takeaway here is it. 614 00:31:56,230 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 4: Doesn't get better. Monitor yourselves. Monitor relationships. Record. Put reports. 615 00:32:03,860 --> 00:32:06,340 Speaker 3: Give reports to your police department. It doesn't mean the 616 00:32:06,380 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 3: end of your marriage. It doesn't mean the end of anything. 617 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:08,980 Speaker 3: Just file the reports. 618 00:32:09,300 --> 00:32:10,100 Speaker 4: Just place. 619 00:32:10,220 --> 00:32:13,010 Speaker 3: Make sure you have a record of things. Because it 620 00:32:13,030 --> 00:32:15,860 Speaker 3: doesn't happen in a vacuum. It does not improve. And 621 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 3: then watch Toxic on ID every Tuesday night because abuse 622 00:32:20,940 --> 00:32:23,020 Speaker 3: comes in all shapes, forms, and fashion. 623 00:32:23,420 --> 00:32:26,790 Speaker 4: And the more education, conversation, and language we have, the better. 624 00:32:27,490 --> 00:32:31,450 Speaker 2: I know ID has a website, noexcuseforabuse.com. So there's that, 625 00:32:31,490 --> 00:32:33,830 Speaker 2: you guys, as well. Well, thank you so much for 626 00:32:33,850 --> 00:32:35,230 Speaker 2: joining us. Thank you for the good work. 627 00:32:35,430 --> 00:32:35,930 Speaker 1: Keep it up. 628 00:32:36,170 --> 00:32:36,940 Speaker 4: It's so nice to meet you. 629 00:32:36,950 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: We appreciate you.