1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to five hundred Greatest Songs, a podcast based on 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Rolling Stones hugely popular, influential, and sometimes controversial list. I'm 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: Britney Spanos and. 4 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 2: I'm Rob Sheffield. We're here to shed light on the 5 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 2: greatest songs ever made and discover what makes them so great. 6 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: So, Rob, what song are we going to talk about today? 7 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 3: Song? 8 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 2: Very Near and Dear to my Heart Waterloose Sunset by 9 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 2: the Kinks. 10 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: And this song was at forty two on the original 11 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: list in two thousand and four and jumped up to 12 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: fourteen and twenty twenty one. 13 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 3: Mind blowing. 14 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was one of very many moments going through 15 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 2: the list when seeing the new vote totals and seeing 16 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 2: the reaction for the list and seeing the Waterloo Sunset? 17 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 3: Was this high? Just a beautiful, beautiful thing? 18 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: Was the song on your list at all? 19 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 3: Yeah? 20 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: It was? 21 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 2: And I love so many songs by the Kinks, but 22 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 2: this one is so special. 23 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love this song. I feel like I know 24 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: kind of a lot of the bigger songs by the Kinks. 25 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: There was also a well respected man I've always really 26 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: liked his was in Juno. 27 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 3: It's so good. 28 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: Yes, it seems very well and you know but yeah, Like, 29 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: I feel like there's so many different facets of the 30 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: Kinks sound that it's kind of fascinating that's all the 31 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:12,759 Speaker 1: same band, you. 32 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, the hard rock Kinks and then the delicate 33 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 2: introspective Kinks. 34 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's so. 35 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 2: Well that they're the the ultimate brother band, right. It's 36 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 2: like there's Ray Davies, who's the shy, introspective, bookish one 37 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 2: who's writing these incredibly delicate lyrics, and then there's brother Dave, 38 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 2: the guitar solo guy, and such opposite personalities. And no 39 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 2: brother band ever made more out of hating each other. 40 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 2: Over the years, they made, you know, the Gallagher brothers 41 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 2: look like one big, happy family. They would just routinely 42 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 2: gush blood on stage from fisticuffs, and that was something 43 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 2: they were doing in the sixties when nobody was doing that. 44 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: We don't really have brothers doing that anymore. I kind 45 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: of wish we did. We need we need a new 46 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: pair of brothers to fight on stage. 47 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 2: Yes, awesome, we need sisters to open out this. 48 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: We need time to get if. 49 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 3: You have any issues you want to work out on 50 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 3: sta on stage. 51 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: Yes, while you're all like doing the joint drumming moment 52 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: like's let's get some blood. 53 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. It was shocking to me that Waterloo 54 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 2: Sunset was so high up on the list, given that, 55 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 2: you know, it's never been a radio hit. It's never 56 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 2: been a song that you hear in the deli, it's 57 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 2: never been a song that gets synced in movies or 58 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 2: TV shows, and so really for its entire history, it's 59 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:45,359 Speaker 2: been sort of a cult favorite song. It's very comparable 60 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 2: to pet Sounds, I think, in terms of the way 61 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 2: Pet Sounds never blockbuster, but every generation discovers it and 62 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 2: once you hear it, it's in your soul forever. 63 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. 64 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,040 Speaker 1: I don't remember why I first heard it. I'm I 65 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: might have honestly been from the original list, like it 66 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:04,639 Speaker 1: might have been from reading the two thousand and four 67 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: list and finding music from that, just because like I 68 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: feel like every other really big Kink song I have 69 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 1: very distinct like my shron in Reality bites and like 70 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: you Really Got Me the Van Halen cover and like 71 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: listening to that and like you know, I mean, Lola 72 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: was just like always played on radio and stuff like that. 73 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: So I feel like this song, I can't really remember 74 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: why I first heard it and why I love it 75 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: so much. I honestly do think it might be from 76 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: the original list and from listening that's so interesting, like 77 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: it feels like appropriate for kind of how long I 78 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: feel like I've known this song and where it probably 79 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: came from. 80 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 2: It's just so delicate and vulnerable. I remember hearing it 81 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 2: on the radio as a little kid, yea, and it 82 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 2: was terrifying for me, just how vulnerable it was that 83 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 2: here's this guy, and I knew in my head that 84 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 2: he was the same guy who's sang you Really Got 85 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 2: Me and all Day and all of the Night and 86 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 2: all these bangers, and of course I knew and loved 87 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 2: Lola and so many any of Ray Davies' songs were 88 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 2: so funny, and some of them were so rowdy, and 89 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 2: I hadn't yet heard his quiet, introspective, fearful side, and 90 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 2: just this incredibly intimate portrait of just a man living alone, 91 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 2: looking out his window and following people day today, and 92 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 2: knowing this couple who meet at the subway station every 93 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 2: Friday night, and just rooting for them, and even though 94 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 2: he's got no friends and no love of his own, 95 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 2: he totally takes pleasure in this life that they're having 96 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 2: there's no other. 97 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 3: Song like it. It's really amazing and you hear its. 98 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 2: Influence and songwriters now from Lord to Taylor Swift to 99 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 2: even Drake. I think Drake has a lot of Waterloo 100 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 2: Sunset energy in his songs. Yeah, Waterloo Sunset. It's so 101 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 2: quiet and almost defenseless sounding, but just overwhelmingly joyful too. Yeah. 102 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: When I was reading about the song and like the 103 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: history of it, it was really like how ray I felt 104 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: so felt almost too vulnerable to share it with the band, Yeah, 105 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 1: which is such like a striking thing about just kind 106 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 1: of how intimate it felt, and also the fact, I 107 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: mean it was originally going to be Liverpool Sunset and 108 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: then a Peen Waterloo Sunset. But there's also like his 109 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: history with that particular tube station in London, and how 110 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: there's a hospital he was hospitalized as a teen really 111 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: close today. Just like all those little connections to it 112 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 1: are really fascinating to learn about it. 113 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 3: Well, London is a city, you. 114 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,359 Speaker 1: Know, Well, you become a regular in London and it 115 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: loves you. I do listen Waterloos. I like to listen 116 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: to songs of the cities that I'm going to when 117 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 1: I go to them, just to get into little method traveling, 118 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: you know. But I do listen to Waterloo Sunset every 119 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: time I go to London. 120 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 3: It's so beautiful. 121 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. Also it changes a song so much when you 122 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 2: see the train station, which is not a romantic. 123 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: Places truly horrendous. I mean I can't imagine romanticizing a 124 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: single tube station in London, but especially the Waterloo stations 125 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: easy in there. 126 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 2: Yes, it's giant, it's impersonal. It's better now than it was, 127 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 2: you know in the eighties when it was totally dump 128 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 2: and in Ray Davies's time, it was you know, he 129 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,840 Speaker 2: really loved singing songs about London and it's when it 130 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 2: was the big Black smoke because he loved to sing. 131 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 2: He loved to sing songs about the seediest, crampedest, least 132 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 2: glamorous parts of the city and to find romance there. 133 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 2: But yeah, Waterloo Sunset really captures that. 134 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,559 Speaker 1: I mean watching a sunset on river times is very, 135 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: very beautiful, I will say, in spite of the station 136 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 1: itself being kind of chaotic, you know, it is a 137 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: there is a lot of beauty in that sort of 138 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: scene no matter what. So I'm like I could see why. 139 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 2: I remember I was in London interviewing Lily Allen, the 140 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 2: ultimate London girl you know from Clapham like and because 141 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 2: she is so quintessentially London, and I was like, I'm 142 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 2: here for a couple of days. What should I go see? 143 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 2: What should I do? What kind of London experience? And 144 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 2: she was like, to go to Waterloo Station and I 145 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 2: was like really, And She's like, everything you think about 146 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 2: the song is totally different when you see the station 147 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 2: and you see the river and you know, he says 148 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 2: it's dirty, old river. It's dirty, it's old. Yes, And 149 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 2: to have this beautiful story that's set in such an 150 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 2: unglamorous urban environment, and that's the way he liked to 151 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 2: tell his stories. Yeah, it's funny that this song, like 152 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 2: you said, he meant it to be Liverpool Sunset and 153 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 2: he's changed his mind after the Beatles did Penny Lane. 154 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 3: It's funny because. 155 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 2: Penny Lane is such a Ray Davies kind of song, 156 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 2: and Paul McCartney was really the only other songwriter like 157 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 2: Ray Davies at the time who's writing these songs about 158 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 2: women in this really empathetic way that was completely unusual 159 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 2: for male songwriters at the time. That these aren't romantic objects, 160 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 2: and they aren't sexualized in any way, and they aren't 161 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 2: glamorized in any way. But when Paul sings about the 162 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 2: nurse and Penny Lane and he's just like wondering what 163 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 2: she thinks about, how she feels as if she's gonna play. 164 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 2: Their characters have interior lives in a way that just 165 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 2: makes other male songwriters of the era sound just really silly. 166 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And the kind of like voyeuristic element, I 167 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: mean kind of you know, kind of beautiful sort of 168 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: witnessing of a love story unfold who reminds me so 169 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: much of heroes as well, And like, of course David 170 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: Bowie covered Waterloo Sunset and has a great version of it, 171 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: but it always reminds me of that. The idea of 172 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: like kind of looking through a window and seeing these 173 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 1: lovers and kind of seeing it unfold in front of you. 174 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 2: That's such a brilliant comparison. That's absolutely right on. Yeah, 175 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 2: it's very similar stories in a very ugly, unromantic, dirty 176 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 2: unromantic kind of place to have this beautiful romantic moment 177 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 2: that somebody witnesses. But you know, Terry and Julie that 178 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 2: of course, like herrying it as a little kid. I 179 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 2: didn't realize that they were named after you know, famous 180 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,319 Speaker 2: movie stars at the time symbolize swinging London for people, 181 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 2: Terence dam and Julie Christie. Just the idea of this 182 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 2: old man. It's funny that I have such a vivid 183 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 2: picture of a character and Waterloo sunset, and I picture him, 184 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 2: this old guy, this really vivid narrow apartment and this 185 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 2: narrow window that he's peaking through and seeing people walk by, 186 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 2: and he's just happy that they have their lives and 187 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:22,719 Speaker 2: he doesn't feel bitter that he doesn't have that love 188 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 2: and romance in his own life. 189 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, really amazing. 190 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean even just the way that he sings 191 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: and I Am Not Afraid is so heart wrenching, Like 192 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:30,359 Speaker 1: it's so beautiful. 193 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 3: It's really beautiful. 194 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: I feel like, Yeah, and both those songs are kind 195 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: of witnessing these like this love and romance unfold. There's 196 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: so much optimism, obviously, you know, this is Bowie and 197 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: Berlin and kind of singing about the optimism of the 198 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: future and like our hopes for it. And then of 199 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 1: course this is like just just watching a mundane kind 200 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 1: of day and seeing a lot of beauty in that 201 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: is very striking in both. 202 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:55,559 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely and weird. There was such a commercial flop 203 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 2: at the time. Yeah, and that's something that's as with 204 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,719 Speaker 2: Pet Sounds. It's like easy part of the story. I mean, 205 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 2: Pet Sounds is such a classic now, it's weird to 206 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 2: think that it was a total flop that almost destroyed 207 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 2: the Beach Boys when it came out. And the same 208 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 2: is true with something else of the Kinks, that they 209 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 2: had all those great earlies when they were like just 210 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:18,839 Speaker 2: you know, the ultimate London garage band, and you really 211 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 2: got me is so great all day and all of 212 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 2: the night. Like you said, there's a lot of hope 213 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 2: and optimism in a song that you know, it's very 214 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 2: like coming from a very sad place in some ways, 215 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 2: but you know you could definitely hear that. I love 216 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,679 Speaker 2: his wife's vocal on the song. He's always said that 217 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 2: he meant it to be a Liverpool song, and then 218 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 2: he thought, wait a minute. I've been a Londoner my 219 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 2: entire life. I was born here, I grew up here. 220 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 2: Why am I doing Liverpool song? London is my place? 221 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 3: And he had his. 222 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 2: Wife come in and sing, and she's doing those beautiful 223 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 2: like vocal harmonies and you know, he's with his brother 224 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 2: and they're getting along great that day. And it's funny 225 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 2: that this song was made in an atmosphere of joy 226 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 2: and community when the song is about feeling very alone 227 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 2: but like you said, not feeling afraid. 228 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. And why do you think it jumped up so 229 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: much on the list in between? 230 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 2: I partly think it's because there's so many songwriters now 231 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 2: who are trying to do this kind of song. And 232 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 2: Waterloo Sinse that was very unique kind of song. But 233 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 2: I still remember as a little kid hearing it for 234 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 2: the first time, yea, being really shocked. I was like, wait, 235 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 2: he doesn't need any friends. Wait, why is he out 236 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 2: there trying to make friends? Isn't that how what usually 237 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 2: happens in a song is somebody has an emotional problem 238 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 2: and they learn something, they get over it whatever. I'm like, No, 239 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 2: this guy begins a song very sad and alone, and 240 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 2: he ends very alone, but he takes joy in other 241 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 2: people having their lives. 242 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. 243 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 2: And that was a lot of process for me as 244 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 2: a little kid. And I think because songwriters are now 245 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 2: so interested in stories like that. You know, we mentioned 246 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:57,439 Speaker 2: Taylor Swift and Lord and Drake, but there's certainly a 247 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 2: lot more. The song is sort of a template for 248 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 2: kind of songwriting that people are more ambitious about trying now. 249 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 2: And I remember that song. I remember when the two 250 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 2: thousand and four version of a list came out. I 251 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 2: was so surprised it was so high then, And I 252 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 2: was so glad to see it so high, because you know, 253 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 2: it was never any kind of hit or radio staple. 254 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,319 Speaker 2: But something about the bravery of the song, that it's 255 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 2: a song about a very shy person speaking up and 256 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 2: telling the story of their life. I think that really 257 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 2: speaks to people. I don't know what to make of this, 258 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 2: but the fact that the balloting for this list was 259 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 2: done in the spring of twenty twenty, when a lot 260 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 2: of people were feeling this way. I wasn't in the 261 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 2: mood at all to listen to Waterloo Sunset. In the 262 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 2: spring of twenty twenty, the pandemic started, we all thought 263 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 2: it would be. It took everyone by surprise not to 264 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 2: get into the whole story of it. But at that moment, 265 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 2: a song like Waterloose Sunset was speaking way too much 266 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 2: to like how I was feeling. That was part of 267 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 2: my surprise seeing it so high in the list. I thought, 268 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 2: you know, are people just feeling this way? 269 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: You could feel so much of that in a lot 270 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: of songs in the way that things like shook out 271 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: in terms of the voting, where you can tell people 272 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: were literally going to their comfort songs in a lot 273 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 1: of ways, and going to the songs that like bring 274 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: them some sort of like warmth or like sometimes hope 275 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: or sometimes kind of just like letting them kind of 276 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: sit in whatever sadness or anger they were feeling at 277 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: the time. 278 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 2: Absolutely, Ray Davies, He's got so much in common for 279 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 2: me with Smokey Robinson as a singer and songwriter and 280 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 2: someone who is able to like type into emotions that 281 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 2: other songwriters at the time were just terrified of going 282 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,359 Speaker 2: anywhere near, and that they both had this really forlorn 283 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 2: quality in their voices, and yet there's so much wit 284 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 2: and humor and playfulness in their songs. But I think 285 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 2: of Ray and Smokey as two songwriters that were had 286 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 2: a lot in common but very different from what anybody 287 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 2: else was doing at the time. 288 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, Ray Davies. 289 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 2: Something I love about Ray Davies that I love so 290 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 2: many things about Ray Davies, but the fact that he's 291 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 2: always surprised by which songs of his striking nerve with 292 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,599 Speaker 2: people over the years, and he's often expressed surprise that 293 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 2: Waterloo Sunset means so much to people. It's funny that 294 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 2: he did all these lofty, theatrical concept albums in the 295 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 2: seventies The Kinks Present a soap Opera or preservation Act too, 296 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 2: and that he thought of those at the time as 297 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 2: his major works of the period. And it was always 298 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 2: so funny for him that people attached to Kink's deep 299 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 2: cuts and B sides. It was really wild that for 300 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 2: a long time he was in a couple with Chrissy 301 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 2: Hind from The Pretenders when she was like the coolest 302 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 2: punk rocker in the universe, and it was so wild 303 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 2: that she was into all these songs that were Kink's 304 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 2: B sides. She's saying I Go to sleep and stop 305 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 2: your Sobbing, which were total deep cut yeah songs, and 306 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 2: that Van Halen did. Of course, they're huge version of 307 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 2: you Really Got Me, But they also did this incredibly 308 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 2: obscure Kinks by side where of all the good Times Gone. 309 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 3: He has so many. 310 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 2: Songs from this period that people will hear and they're like, nope, 311 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 2: that's my song. So songs that were totally obscure and 312 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 2: forgotten just became touchstones for people. 313 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: I love that there are multiple Van Halen the Kinks 314 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: like connections. I didn't realize there's a second song that 315 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: they also. 316 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 3: You mentioned David Bowie. 317 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, and of course he did a beautiful version of 318 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 2: this song after being a fan of it his whole life. 319 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 2: It's fairly in two thousand and three with reality, But 320 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 2: the connections between Ray Davies and David Bowie are so interesting. 321 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I love his version of it a lot. 322 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: I didn't hear that until later. Honestly, I don't think 323 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: I heard reality until like much later, But I do 324 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: love that. 325 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 2: Very underrated, Oh my god, great period for Bowie. But 326 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,359 Speaker 2: Bowie always cited Ray Davies is one of his best influences, 327 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 2: not just as a songwriter but as a singer. That 328 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 2: they both were very into doing the London accent without 329 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 2: toning it down to explain where it sounds really funny 330 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 2: to American ears, like yeah, but you know, Bowie did 331 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 2: wear of All the Good Times Gone on his Pin 332 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 2: Ups album, and he really played up the sort of 333 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 2: you know, cartoon London schoolboys sort of accent. But yeah, 334 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 2: the connection you made between Waterloo Sunset and Heroes is 335 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 2: so fascinating because they were both so interested in these 336 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 2: kind of love songs that take place with people who 337 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 2: are misfits from the rest of the world and they 338 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 2: just have nothing but each other, but that's enough for them. 339 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean just kind of the sort of like 340 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: witness scene of a scene in pop music is always 341 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: such an underrated kind of vehicle in singing about something 342 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: like I just I love that sort of kind of 343 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: that window into something else that a great pop writer 344 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: could really yeah do where they kind of go outside 345 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: of themselves and they're like, here's what I'm witnessing right 346 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: in front of my eyes of this beautiful scene and 347 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: kind of adding these kind of making up these characters 348 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 1: in the same way that a person does when they're 349 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: listening to a great song. 350 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 2: Anyway, absolutely, I remember in the eighties Bob Geldoff did 351 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 2: a sequel to Waterloo Sunset where. 352 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 3: Really where Terry and Julie. 353 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 2: Got married and then got divorced, and I remember thinking, like, 354 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 2: Bob Geldoff, this is not your this is not your story. Yes, 355 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 2: you don't have to break I get now that this 356 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 2: is you know, like people hear different parts of their 357 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 2: story in this song. But I remember I was appalled, like, 358 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 2: you know, like when Bob Geldoff did this and I was, 359 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 2: you know, a teenager, and I was like, you can't. 360 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 3: Have Terry and Julie break up. 361 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 2: There was the whole purpose, yes, But it's funny that 362 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 2: to me Waterloos, since I was in a song identified 363 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 2: with so much when I was nineteen and I thought, Wow. 364 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:52,159 Speaker 3: This is me. 365 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 2: I'm the guy in this song. I felt so old 366 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 2: at nineteen that I was like, yep, this is me. 367 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 2: This is how the rest of my life will be. 368 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,120 Speaker 2: And it's funny that a few years later I've felt 369 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 2: much more like Terry and Julian, And I thought, isn't 370 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 2: that weird that when I was a teenager, I was 371 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 2: so sure that I was the Ray Davies guy in 372 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 2: this story, and a few years later I was like 373 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 2: back to like feeling like Ray Davies again, and a 374 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 2: few years later is back to feeling like Terry and 375 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 2: Julian again. Like, it's really funny that this is a 376 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 2: story that we're all part of, from different areas, from 377 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 2: different parts of the story, from different perspectives, and it's 378 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 2: just a song that changes as you love it over 379 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 2: the years. And the way he says very beautifully in 380 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 2: the song, the social anxiety he talks about in such 381 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 2: a matter of fact way, you know, like I'm so lazy. 382 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 2: I don't like to wander. I stay at home at night. 383 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,719 Speaker 2: And I thought he liked Terry and Julie because they 384 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 2: leave the city behind and go home. It's like, no, 385 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 2: they're not going home. They're going out, probably to the 386 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 2: same bar and soho where Lola is hanging out. It 387 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 2: really kind of changed the song that his selfless joy 388 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 2: in the life that they have. It's just astonishing, what 389 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 2: a generous song it is. It realids, you have a 390 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 2: Beatles song that I know you love as much as 391 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 2: I do. She loves you? Yea where Paul who's narrating 392 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 2: the song, if we can call it Paul. It sounds 393 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 2: like Paul to me. But he's like, look, she loves you. 394 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 2: She doesn't love me, she loves you. I think she's 395 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 2: wrong about this. I think she's an idiot to love 396 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 2: you so much. But you two have each other. You 397 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 2: should be glad about this, and you should make things 398 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 2: right with her. It's really amazing, Like how generous that 399 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 2: song is that the narrator is very like, Yeah, you 400 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 2: screwed it up with this girl. You need to make it, 401 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 2: you need to fix it up because you're very lucky. 402 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 2: And the narrator of that song is so just something 403 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 2: so selfless and generous about that. And there's a lot 404 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 2: of that in Waterloo Sunset too. He's not watching them thinking, well, 405 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,479 Speaker 2: where's my Turry, where's my Julie. Yeah, he's just so 406 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 2: happy to see how much they love each other. 407 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, he's just just pleasantly watching and witnessing their love. 408 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 2: It's so nice, right, And it's funny because, like, you know, 409 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 2: the way we're describing the song, it seems like there's 410 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:00,959 Speaker 2: no way you should be a to get away with it. 411 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 2: It should end up being like sentimental in modeling. 412 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's so joyful. 413 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 2: Yes. Robert Chris Gaut called it memorably in his famous words, 414 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 2: he called it the most beautiful song in the English language. Yeah, 415 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 2: and when I hear it, I think Robert Christgau is 416 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:16,360 Speaker 2: absolutely right. 417 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 3: It really is one of a kind. 418 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 2: It's a kind of beauty that isn't even a more 419 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 2: beautiful version of other songs. It's the only one like it. 420 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, we are joined now by Rolling Stone senior writer 421 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 1: Corey Grow. Thank you so much for being here with us. 422 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 4: Thanks for having me, Thanks Scry, Yeah, thank you. 423 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. 424 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: And of course the song clocks in at number fourteen 425 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: on the list. Were you surprised to see it ranked 426 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 1: so highly? 427 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 4: I was pleasantly surprised to see it rank so highly. 428 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. 429 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,400 Speaker 4: I think it's ranked higher than I Want to Hold 430 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 4: your Hand and lower than give Me a shelter, which 431 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 4: is weird that it's a rare error right there. But yeah, 432 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 4: I was. I was surprised, you know, especially since it 433 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 4: wasn't really a hit here. Yeah, you know, it speaks 434 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 4: to its influence with the way that resonated with people, 435 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 4: you know, songwriters and people who actually like listen to 436 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 4: music beyond the radio. 437 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:08,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, And what do you think kind of brought it? 438 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 1: I mean, for so many voters to rank the song 439 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 1: so highly or included in their ballots, Like, what do 440 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: you think it is about this song that for this 441 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one list, the song was so enduring that 442 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: so many people voted for it. 443 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 4: I think it's just it hits you with this sentimentality 444 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 4: you didn't. I mean, I guess there were a lot 445 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 4: of bands that did a lot of that sentimentality back 446 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 4: in the sixties, especially the late sixties, but there's just 447 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 4: some nostalgic aspect of that song that I think reaches people, 448 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 4: and just that melody, it just it just keeps you. 449 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 4: You know, you want to hear it again, You want 450 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 4: to hear it again and again again. I was listening 451 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 4: to what's his name from the old ninety sevens Rhett Miller. Miller, 452 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 4: he did a live recording of it, and he says, 453 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:47,360 Speaker 4: this is the greatest song ever. I wish I could 454 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,120 Speaker 4: have written this, And like you know, there's so many 455 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 4: different covers of it from like def Leppard that a 456 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 4: really weird hard rock version of it, and Bowie covered 457 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 4: it and all sorts of people. But there's just something 458 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 4: about it that's got this nostal too that just hits 459 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 4: everybody from all different walks of life. 460 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, David Bowie was the last song he sang on 461 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 2: stage in his entire life, which wasn't planned that way, 462 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 2: but such a perfect song for him to sign off with, 463 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 2: and that there's so much emotion and yearning in the 464 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 2: melody and such an intensely like gritty, real visual story 465 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 2: and seen through the eyes of this character. And you know, 466 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 2: we learned so much about him just staring him talk 467 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 2: about these people. 468 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 4: If you analyze the literature of the song, it's really 469 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 4: fascinating because here's this sort of voyeuristic look at these 470 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 4: two lovers from some unseen space. That's he's hiding up 471 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 4: high and looking at them, and he's got this sort 472 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 4: of Shakespearean son at one thirty lust for this train station. 473 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 4: It's like he loves Waterloo Station the way that only 474 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 4: lou Reid could love New York, you know what I mean, 475 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 4: Because it's just so like Bend to Waterloo Station and 476 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 4: they gets gross and dirty, and he even likes he 477 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 4: talks about people moving around like flies in Waterloo sunset. 478 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 4: But you don't notice it because it sounds so beautiful. 479 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 4: But you know, if you actually were to like analyze 480 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 4: the lyrics, there's some really kind of weird grittiness to it. 481 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,959 Speaker 4: It gets hidden in there. But going back to Bowie, 482 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 4: one of my favorite things that I was reading, I'd 483 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:23,920 Speaker 4: read an interview with the Raid where he was talking 484 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,919 Speaker 4: about how when he and Bowie did it together at 485 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 4: Carnegie Hall, and three they tried to sing like each 486 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,880 Speaker 4: other and that was their their challenge that like Ray 487 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 4: wanted to sing like Bowie, and Bowie wanted to sing 488 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 4: like Ray. If you listen to it online, it's really 489 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 4: fascinating to hear it from that perspective. They're tossing it 490 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 4: at one another. 491 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 3: There. 492 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 2: Wow, I never knew that, but they obviously such a 493 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 2: huge influence on Bowie. Yeah, and just that really kind 494 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 2: of vulnerable, quavery sort of voice. 495 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: And you've interviewed Ray before. What kind of stands out 496 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: to you about him as a songwriter and performer, especially 497 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: in comparison to his peers of that time. 498 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,479 Speaker 4: A couple of things. One is he's unapologetically British. He 499 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 4: loves to be English, you know. Obviously Village Green Preservation 500 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 4: Society is him. He even you know, not in the 501 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 4: sense of political, but he says it's a conservative album 502 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 4: because he wanted to conserve the England that he grew 503 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 4: up with. So even like Waterloo Sunset, like you know, 504 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 4: I compared it to lou Read before, like the only 505 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 4: other artists that I could think of that loves his 506 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 4: locality as much as Ray loves England would be like 507 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 4: Lou with New York, you know what I mean, to 508 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 4: the point that it's anti commercial, to the point that 509 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 4: it really kind of in some ways just stymy to 510 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 4: his career where he's this great songwriter that could have 511 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 4: been so much bigger if he had written about other 512 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 4: places or things rather than just England does his big news. Yeah, 513 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 4: and that's how Lou was too. Lou, didn't you have 514 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 4: big hits other than you know, Walking the Wildside. But 515 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:51,919 Speaker 4: the other thing that strikes me about Ray is just 516 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 4: how much he sort of cloaks himself and hides and 517 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 4: sort of evades things. And you can hear that a 518 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 4: bit in Waterloo Sunset, because like the Terry and Julie characters, 519 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 4: you know, he originally said that they were Terrence Stamp 520 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 4: and Julie Christie, who were dating at the time, and 521 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,159 Speaker 4: then later said that Terry was based on like just 522 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 4: the name of his nephew, and that Rosie, his sister 523 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 4: who had moved off to Australia, was sort of the 524 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 4: Julie type character, and that he had just picked Julie 525 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 4: as a name. And there's so he changes these things, 526 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 4: and I don't know, have you read X Ray. 527 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:23,199 Speaker 3: Have you read his memoir. 528 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 4: You have you read that? 529 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was written at a very strange time for 530 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 2: him in terms of like, yeah, getting his story straight. 531 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 2: It was really weird whether it was written when it 532 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 2: was written, and some of it he clearly believes in 533 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 2: some of it he clearly doesn't. 534 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,199 Speaker 1: Love that title. Yeah, great title for a memoir, and. 535 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 4: The book is like it's written from a perspective of 536 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 4: a character and he's liken it. He wanted it to 537 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 4: be his in abook of book and like unreliable narrator 538 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 4: and all this stuff. So it's just like he'll do 539 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 4: anything he can to sort of just hide his own 540 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 4: the truth or whatever it is. So it's like nobody's 541 00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 4: ever really going to know the truth of Waterloo Sunset 542 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 4: because he's given so many different explanations of it over 543 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 4: the years too. But yeah, those are the things that 544 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,400 Speaker 4: probably stand out to me most thinking about him. 545 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they invented the brother band who hate each other. Yes, 546 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 2: Like in terms of you know, like the Gallagher brothers 547 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 2: had nothing on them when it came to just punching 548 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 2: each other out on stage, never having a kind word 549 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 2: to say about each other, but their brothers, and they 550 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 2: did in one of their nineties albums. They had that 551 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 2: great duet where they're saying hatred will keep us together, 552 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 2: and it's really like their story, you know, Like there 553 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,120 Speaker 2: was that time, like a few weeks ago where they 554 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 2: posted photo of themselves watching the Arsenal game. I think 555 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 2: it was they were just watching the football together, and 556 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 2: like people around the world were like, oh my god, 557 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 2: like Y and Dave like watching football together. That was 558 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 2: so exciting to people, Like it's such a fascinating brotherhood. 559 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, And I mean, but they're still not reuniting. You know, 560 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 4: the Stones are playing met Life on a couple of weeks. 561 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 4: Where's the Kinks tour? You know, that's that's the sibling rivalry. 562 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: I'm glad you Brob. The van Halen thinks they forgot 563 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: about that, and you're the perfect person to talk about 564 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: this with our as a resident metal expert. But like, 565 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: what was that connection for Van Halen to to the Kinks, 566 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: And like, you know, do they speak about it extensively 567 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,479 Speaker 1: and kind of that influence that outside of that guitar 568 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: riff sort of inspiring so many bringing many genres. 569 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 4: Van Halen began as this backyard rock and roll party band, 570 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 4: and so they did covers, you know. I think what's 571 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 4: funny is they were originally called Rat Salad before they 572 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 4: were called Mammoth, and rat Salad's like it's an instrumental 573 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 4: break on a Black Sabbath record. 574 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, but they they played. 575 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 4: Just whatever would get people moving, whether it was Sabbath 576 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 4: or the Kinks or whatever. So I think the Kinks 577 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 4: was just a hold over there. 578 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 3: They did where have all. 579 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,399 Speaker 4: The Good Times Gone? Which is the that is the 580 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 4: apotheosis of David Lee Roth in a single song, Like 581 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 4: he just like owns that vibe of like where have 582 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,959 Speaker 4: all the good Times gone? Especially at that time and 583 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,159 Speaker 4: especially now, And it's just like, yeah, they were, they 584 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 4: were the party band. So I think I think that 585 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 4: it was just that it was just like, let's keep 586 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 4: the live thing going, like especially if you listen to 587 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 4: like old live record so that they would do it 588 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 4: like the Whiskey and stuff like that. 589 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:03,360 Speaker 3: It's just like, all right, everybody. 590 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,640 Speaker 4: Knows the song, let's do it, you know. But yeah, 591 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 4: it's just amazing to think of how prolific he was, 592 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 4: you know, and that he would just dash off these 593 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,880 Speaker 4: songs and probably forget them and they would be brilliant. 594 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much Corey for joining us today. 595 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. 596 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, I have real joy to hear you talk about 597 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 3: the Kinks. 598 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 2: You are like you, Ray and Dave are probably the 599 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 2: living experts on the topic. 600 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 3: And Andy Green who should be here too. 601 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you very much for having me. 602 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. 603 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to Rolling Stone's five 604 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,959 Speaker 2: hundred Greatest songs. This podcast is brought to you by 605 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 2: Rolling Stone and iHeartMedia. Written and hosted by Rob Sheffield 606 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 2: and Brittany Spanos, Executive produced by Jason Fine, Alex Dale, 607 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 2: Christian Horde and Gus Winner, and produced by Jesse Cannon, 608 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 2: with music supervision by Eric Siler.