WEBVTT - Brain Drain: Why Slashing Research Budgets & Student Visas Hurts Us All 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:10.039 I'm TT and I'm Zakiah, and this is Dope Labs. 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:14.600 Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:22.520 science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship. Okay, 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:24.320 we got to jump into it because a lot has 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:26.720 been happening in the education and research space. 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:27.680 Absolutely. 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:30.160 I mean, on June fourth of this year, so twenty 0:00:30.200 --> 0:00:33.800 twenty five, Trump issued a proclamation suspending the entry of 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:38.080 international students to Harvard for six months, and he cited 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:43.000 what he's calling national security concerns and non compliance with 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:47.279 federal information requests regarding foreign students' activities. 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:51.000 And the president of Harvard says that's nonsense. 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:53.400 And people just think that's undergrad but that's graduate students 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:57.480 and postdocs, okay, And Harvard's just the headline for now. 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:00.000 But last month, the White House froze two hundred ten 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:03.840 million dollars in Princeton's grants, and within days we saw 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:06.760 Columbia pen Brown, you know, all the other IVY leagues, 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:09.440 we saw half billion dollar funding holes on all of 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:11.880 their funding for ideological non compliance or. 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:14.640 What they say is ideological non compliance. 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:15.240 Right. 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:18.039 All this weird, right, this feels like to me, I know, 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:23.600 beef when I see and this feels like beef. Absolutelyef, absolutely, 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:25.880 I mean, the Department of Homeland Security is saying this 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:29.679 is a national security issue and is accusing Harvard of 0:01:29.760 --> 0:01:33.679 everything from anti Semitism to like being in bed with 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:37.520 the Chinese Communist Party, and a federal judge is already 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:41.960 hit pause on this. But the message is loud and messy. 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:45.640 It is definitely beef. And the hit list is not 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:48.920 just on the education side, it's on the agency side too. 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:53.080 So we've seen budget slashes to NIH, CDC, NSLF SO 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:57.760 anywhere from forty to sixty seven percent overnight sometimes. So 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:00.760 it doesn't matter if you are a biologist at Hopkins 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:03.200 or a grad student at MIT, or a postoc like 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:07.040 you were saying, Zakiya, the message is the same, and 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:11.680 that feeds straight into today's big conversation on the impacts 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:14.160 of these cuts. This is a great place to jump 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:18.720 into the recitation. So let's start there. What do we 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:22.000 know tt Well, we know these executive orders and cuts 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:24.240 are coming fast and furious. 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:26.119 It feels like every day there's something new. 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:31.399 It's almost disorienting because every day a new cut happens 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:34.760 or a new regulation comes out and it's just like 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:35.800 what is going on? 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:37.639 You can barely keep up with the news. 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:41.120 And I think what's interesting is that some of this, 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:45.480 I guess feels illegal, but we know that there is 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:49.359 some legal ground that the administration has and that they're 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:52.200 clinging to that gives the president the right to do all. 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:52.880 Of this stuff, right. 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:55.320 But we also know that folks are not taking this 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:58.920 lying down and people are actively suing the administration to 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:02.120 try and block these up. So that's what we know. 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:04.880 But what do we want to know about what's going on? 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:08.040 I want to talk about the different agencies and how 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:12.400 the cuts will impact our day today lives, because I 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:13.040 know it will. 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:14.800 Yes, it definitely does. 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:19.000 And I am seeing right now a lot of scientists, students, 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:20.360 you know, I do a lot of work with students 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:23.160 that I'm following. They're saying, do I need to change fields? 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:24.800 I'm in the sciences. Do I need to move to 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:26.480 another country? So I want to know more about the 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:29.720 brain drain? But what that means for scholars in America? 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:33.119 What does that mean for America's collective brain? I'd love 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:35.120 that question, and I want to know if there are 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:39.320 any other cuts that we can expect, like what are 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:40.360 the tea leaves saying? 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:42.840 Can we anticipate some of these things? 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:47.320 Mm hmm. And the biggest question for me is figuring 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:50.000 out what we can do to help fight the good 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:55.400 fight against misinformation and still champion research, innovation and diversity 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:57.960 of thought that we know is so important and that's 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:00.320 important to us. That's what Dope Labs is all about. 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:03.080 We love the science of everything and we know how 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:07.360 important it is for our collective global community. So with that, 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:13.520 I think we're ready to jump into the dissection. We 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:16.000 are so excited to have our guests in our new 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:19.320 very smart friend, doctor Chelsea Clinton, to help us navigate 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:20.680 this rarefied air. 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:21.280 Hi. 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:24.560 I'm doctor Chose Clinton. I'm the vice chair of the 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:25.359 Clinton Foundation. 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:28.680 I've also been really lucky to teach a lot of classes. 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:30.120 At the Family School of Public Health. 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:34.840 At Columbia, have written a number of books invest in 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:38.880 founders that are trying to help our world be healthier 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:40.039 and more sustainable. 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:42.440 So I think where we want to start with is 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:46.880 setting the stage for what research touches in our society. 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:50.640 Because science is under attack and it's in the headlines 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:55.280 a lot. Can you speak broadly about how research shapes 0:04:55.600 --> 0:04:57.159 how we experience our world. 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:00.919 Oh my goodness, TD, what has research not shaped? 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:08.720 We're together here on Zoom, facilitated by computers and the 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:10.760 Internet and electricity. 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:13.640 These are all products research. 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:19.159 We have medicine, whether we're thinking about vaccines that are, yes, 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:22.120 the product of lots and lots of research to hopefully 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:27.679 prevent us from getting sick. And it's terrible allergy season 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:30.120 right now. I'm so thankful to allergy medicine and the 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:34.640 research that produced it, so I'm not constantly like teary 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:39.000 eyed and coughing and sneezing from the moment I wake up. 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:42.800 I have three kids and they're all obsessed without our space. 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:47.720 And we got to go to Cape Canaveral last year 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:50.520 on a family trip, and I'll never forget when we 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:55.400 were just like on a regular amazing tour and saw 0:05:55.480 --> 0:06:01.360 the control room where scientists and other folks had been 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:05.160 stationed when we first sent a man to the moon, 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:08.159 and our tour guide either told us or it was 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:11.840 on a plaque that there's more computing power now in 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:16.160 an iPhone than there was in that entire room back 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:20.400 in nineteen sixty nine, or like my kids can't believe 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:21.440 we used to get lost. 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:24.320 Yeah, like they're so surprised. 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:27.200 Like when I talk about like when Grandma and pop 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:30.039 Up and I would go on trips and we would drive. 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:33.479 Often we'd go to Atlanta and drive to South Carolina, 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:36.799 and sometimes we would take purposeful side adventures, and sometimes 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:39.000 we would take accidental side adventures and we would have 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:39.520 to stop and. 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:42.240 Ask re directions. Like they can't get over that. 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:44.919 And I'm like, I know, we didn't have maps on 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:47.480 phone in our pockets. 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:50.120 They've never seen a map quest print out. 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:55.920 Right, like not Lattice West. It's like research anyway. Research. 0:06:56.560 --> 0:06:59.440 Yes, my niece and nephew don't understand commercials. They're used 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:01.440 to everything being on demand. 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:03.360 Yes, converged, isn't it funny? 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:05.560 And I think that brings up like when you talk 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:10.200 about just how leaving your home and choosing Google Maps 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:12.360 or Apple Maps to take you from point A to 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:15.920 point B. First of all, some people are getting lost 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:18.640 with that. And can you imagine traveling in space with 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:22.800 less technology? Going to space with less technology than that 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:26.640 is wild to me. But I think these research initiatives 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:30.760 that lead to products and tangible things that materially change 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:34.840 how we exist, how we interact with one another. I 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:38.720 think the thing that people sometimes separate from researchers. 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:41.240 They're like, oh, that's innovation or technology, but. 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:46.760 It takes so much, it takes so many resources. I 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:51.000 think about how these huge institutions like the National Institute 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:55.760 of Health, the FDA, the CDC, these are huge pillars 0:07:55.800 --> 0:08:00.600 in our national society, but globally what as well, And 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:03.520 I think it's important for people to understand why we 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:06.040 need these huge research institutions. 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:10.200 We absolutely need the National Institutes of Health and the 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:17.720 other parts of our public health infrastructure and ecosystem in 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:21.520 our country. I think not only about the National in 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:25.600 Suits of Health and all of the extraordinary research that 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:29.120 it has supported over the years to help on everything 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:33.640 from enabling the first sequencing of the human genome right. 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:37.040 Yes, the human genome project was huge and from nineteen 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:40.120 ninety to basically two thousand and three a long time 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:43.400 scientists were working to give us the full genome of 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:46.440 a human, but also other organisms that we used to 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:50.040 understand human conditions and science. So you coline that bacteria 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:56.520 Baker's yeast, sacromic Sarah visit sounded like Harry pottersmatos yes, 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:59.640 and mice just a couple episodes ago, we were talking 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:03.720 about fat studies understanding fat metabolism in mice that wouldn't 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:06.680 be possible without the Human Genail Project. 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:09.400 Which was a lot of work that was made possible 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:14.240 because of NIH funding. To everything that we're still learning 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:21.559 about cancer, to all that we thankfully do know about allergies, 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:25.760 to all the vital work that's being done on mental health, 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:29.800 which historically hasn't received the funding that would be merited 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:32.120 if we just think about all of the mental health 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:37.679 challenges across our population. Overdose deaths dropped last year for 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:41.839 the first time in decades and dropped, and I think 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:44.040 this is right. Forty eight out of fifty states, I 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:47.800 think only two states had an increase in overdose death. 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:51.199 So much of what we know about how to help 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:57.040 prevent addiction use disorders, treat addiction use disorders, save someone's 0:09:57.120 --> 0:09:59.080 life so that they can get into treatment. 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:04.079 Narcan the nasal spray that can reverse an opioid overdose. 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:06.400 And I think what you said before is just so 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:10.360 spot on, Like people think of it as innovation or discovery, 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:14.480 like these other words are so closely linked to research, 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:17.960 but may not always be understood as such. 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:35.839 Just thinking of the impact that research has had in 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:38.960 the ways that you were saying, cancer research, allergy research, 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:42.280 all of these things that totally progress us are now 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:45.880 being impacted. We saw that a leaked budget pass back 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:49.880 shows that of NIH is going to get cut and 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:54.160 then forty four percent to the CDC. Can you speak 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:58.760 about how losses on that scale have a ripple effect 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:03.840 through biomedical discovery and the public health safety Net? 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:09.240 Yeah, so I think TD I also saw that leak budget, 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:12.400 I guess about a month ago now, and I think 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:14.040 we can think about this in a number of ways, 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:18.440 and I think they're all super critical for people to understand. 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:21.760 And I will say too, like I also am a 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:27.079 believer in efficiency, but efficiency generally means doing more with 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:31.000 the same amount or trying to have even better outcomes 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:33.080 with the same amount of money. 0:11:33.120 --> 0:11:35.319 It's not getting rid of things wholesale. 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:40.720 And we know through multiple research efforts that for every 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:46.520 dollar that the NH has invested, many many times that 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:52.760 amount is generated through how those research innovations and discoveries 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:57.920 get commercialized in ANH case, often with medical device companies 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:01.480 or pharmaceutical companies. And I think what also often isn't 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:05.359 well understood, is yes, of course, like that those innovations 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:11.319 and help save so many lives, help really disrupt diseases 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:16.120 that have beleaguered humanity for not only thousands, but sometimes 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:19.480 millions of years. But it's also about all of the 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:24.079 jobs that are supported through those research grants. The NIH, 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:26.680 I think, over the last handful of years, has supported 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:31.199 research funding and more than two thousand academic institutions and 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:36.160 hospitals through small research partners. You think about all of 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:40.960 the jobs that are supported directly by those research grants 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:45.920 in laboratories, but also the people who work in those buildings, 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:48.559 then the people who work in the coffee shops or 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:51.319 the restaurants or the bars, where the people who work 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:57.520 in those buildings then spend time before after work, where 0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:01.280 those people's children go to school. And so it's really, 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:05.080 I think purposefully in a wonderful way that NIH has 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:08.400 really been the National Institutes of Health and recognize that 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:14.360 super smart researchers are in institutions big and small, in 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:19.200 like every corner of our country, and that their potential, 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:26.280 their ideas, they're hoped for discoveries and innovations merit being funded. 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:30.640 After of course going through a super rigorous process to 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:34.319 assess which among those really deserve the dollars. 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:35.520 In any given year. 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:40.240 So TD, it's really just it's not only catastrophic for 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:43.960 what we won't discover to help keep all of us healthier, 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:47.640 it's what we then won't create in terms of wealth 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:51.880 because we're not having those companies created, or people who 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:54.120 are healthier who can then go to work for longer. 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:59.440 It's also about all of the people whose lives are 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:02.720 being currently disrupted or who are worried that their lives 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:06.640 are going to be disrupted because of interruptions and funding. 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:09.840 Absolutely, this is a great point because when we're thinking 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:12.599 about research, sometimes folks think of this as people in 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:16.079 lab coats, but there's an entire infrastructure that supports those 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:19.040 folks and their equipments. There's industries and jobs outside of 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:22.720 research that will be impacted by funding cuts. And because 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:24.960 of this, we're seeing a lot of scientists choosing to 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:27.680 take their talents to South Beach like Lebron And when 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:29.760 I say South Beach, I don't mean Miami. Now, I'm 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:31.680 talking about outside of the United States. 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:34.200 Countries are actively recruiting our scientists. 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:36.680 Yes, I'm sure that you both have a lot of 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:39.600 friends like I have friends who've gotten job offers from 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:43.760 literally all over the world. The European Union is setting 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:47.120 aside hundredsivillions of dollars. Individual countries are setting aside like 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:50.280 ten civilians or hundreds civilions of dollars. Some countries have 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:54.440 whole new departments that have sprung up, yes, to try 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:57.880 to recruit American scientists. It's very hard for me to 0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:01.680 reconcile the we're going to make America grade again while 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:05.480 we are actively undermining part of what has made America 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:09.200 grade again, which is like the many decades long partnership 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:12.960 between the public sector and the private sector, between academic 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:18.240 institutions and private industry, between people who work in labs 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:21.680 and then those who build companies off of the research 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:25.960 that those labs generate. And that's part of what hasn't 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:30.640 made our country healthier and more sustainable and wealthier. And 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:33.440 I don't think it's an accident that now you have 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:36.520 so many countries trying to recruit away our best scientists. 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:38.880 And also, as we saw in our recent Nature report, 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:40.880 the three quarters of them were thinking about leaving. 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:41.240 Yes. 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:44.080 I talked to someone who was in public health, and 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:47.600 she was saying, what happens to my field if we're 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:50.800 not tracking what's happening. She was working on maternal health 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:52.120 and infant Oh. 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:54.720 Yeah, because we got rid of the pregnancy Risk Assessment monitoring. 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:57.120 Success and so she was the less than is the eighties. 0:15:57.360 --> 0:15:59.840 And a couple of weeks after Trump took office, we 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:04.200 didn't publish something called the Weekly Morbidity Immortality Report, which 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:07.240 I know sounds super wonky and probably a lot of 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:08.960 people listening to like, what is that and why should 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:12.440 it care? Well, we had published it every week in America, 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:18.440 including through multiple wars. After the tragedy of the terrorist 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:21.240 attacks on nine to eleven, the CDC had published that 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:26.600 every week since the early nineteen sixties, and then we 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:28.440 just didn't And. 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:29.680 Now we're back to publishing it. 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:33.280 But it just shows you how much we've taken for 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:38.720 granted that we have a government that, through different presidential administrations, 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:42.640 even through the first Dump administration, that had a real 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:47.440 commitment to tracking the public health and wellbeing of Americans. 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:49.880 How many people got sick with bird flu this week? 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:53.840 How many people died from gun violence? What are the 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:57.800 rising rates of depression or cancer? What are the questions 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:01.960 and we should be asking from shift's immortality, how many 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:04.240 people have died and morbidity, how many people may have 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:08.879 gotten sick or injured, and we just like didn't do that. 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:12.720 And in fact, multiple data sets have now been taken down, 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:15.800 which of course makes it harder. Back to the theme 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:19.240 of research for researchers, including can you imagine when you 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:22.359 were like applying to PhD programs. If you're like, oh, 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:24.600 I think I want to do this. I know the 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:28.680 government tracks all this data and anything from food safety, 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:32.200 water safety to cancer rates. You're like, I go to 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:34.399 this website to check this government data. Worse, then all 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:37.359 of a sudden it's not there, gone gone, And. 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:40.960 The Morbidity and Mortality report allows us to find out 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:43.960 what's going on in the United States. I can recall 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:47.280 reading this back in maybe it was April or May, 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:50.440 but there was one of the newsletters that said, hey, 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:53.280 people are doing these procedures at this medical spa, and 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:56.720 now we realize this was a source of HIV because 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:59.680 of how they were doing this needle procedure a beauty spot. Okay, 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:02.760 in order to figure these things out what's happening, you 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:05.600 have to have somebody that's tracking and surveilling, which is 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:06.920 what some of our major centers do. 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:11.600 Proposed cuts for the centers for disease control, Well, certainly 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:17.720 we can our outbreak surveillance and responsiveness. And I do 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:22.680 take quite seriously the people who are part of the 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:26.119 Trump administration who are committed, as they say, you make 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:30.760 America healthy. But I struggle given other parts of the 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:35.119 administration are so supportive of the cuts to NIH research funding, 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:39.200 including on chronic disease. Of the cuts that have already 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:44.600 been levied against multiple universities are inclusive of cardio metabolic 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:49.080 health broadly diabetes in particular. I also struggle because the 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:53.680 EPA cuts will make it much harder to enforce clean 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:57.960 water and clean air regulations. There's also been rumors that 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:02.119 they may clawback some of the rules and guidelines around 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:06.359 how much chemical effluent can be released into water as 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:10.879 industrial wastewater, and so I also don't want there to 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:14.359 be artificial red and yellow food dye and our food. 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:16.800 And I also recognize that we need to do a 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:21.119 better job of helping all of us understand the importance 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:24.800 of things that all our grandmothers probably new intuitively and 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.119 we seem to have forgotten, like go outside when you 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:29.600 can get a good night's sleep, like drink a lot 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:33.520 of water, eat a balanced meal. And yet it's just 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:37.280 it's impossible for me to reconcile that with the cuts 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:39.639 to funding around how best to help people do that, 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:43.040 with the proposed cuts that are currently being debated now 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:46.760 in Congress to supplemental nutritional benefits making it harder for 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:50.600 low income Americans to be able to afford healthy food, 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:53.359 harder to think we're going to urge people to go outside, 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:57.119 but the air quality is going to be worse, and 0:19:57.320 --> 0:19:57.879 DAN and. 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:01.320 All of those things compound, and it also makes me 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:05.000 think about, you know, we are freshly off of a pandemic, 0:20:05.320 --> 0:20:07.440 all of that research that is trying to be done 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:11.520 to understand long term effects of having COVID, some folks 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:14.879 that are still suffering with long COVID and just understanding 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:20.000 COVID as a virus itself. And you have someone in 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:24.920 an administration, You have a cabinet that does not believe 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:27.720 in vaccines. You have folks that are in charge of 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:31.359 our health and safety who just don't believe in certain things, 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:49.320 and that will have a negative impact on all of us. Chelsea, 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:52.720 you talk about brain drain a lot and brain drain 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:57.280 is the migration of highly skilled, highly educated, and professionally 0:20:57.359 --> 0:21:01.840 specialized people from one place to another where their talents 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:05.040 are needed, or to another where their talents are respected 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:09.080 and that get better pay, research funding, political stability, quality 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:11.840 of life, or career prospects. I want to know what 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:14.720 you think about brain drain for the United States or 0:21:14.960 --> 0:21:17.080 the possibility of it coming up really soon. 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:21.600 So the United States has been, and I don't think 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:25.800 this is a controversial statement, truly has been the envy 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:31.640 of the world from a research and scientific knowledge production 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:37.280 capacity perspective. And that's been true for a few reasons. 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:41.000 One the strength of our universities. Partly that strength, of 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:45.879 course has been catalyzed and then supported by research investments 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:51.800 through our universities, partly because of our student visa program, 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:56.960 which is also under threat. And so for great students 0:21:57.000 --> 0:22:00.720 from anywhere with great ideas who got into a great 0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:05.879 American university, that there were pathways for them than to 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:09.399 be able to come here and study. And then on 0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:11.960 the other side that we have whole countries, not even 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:16.280 just like academic institutions and other parts of the world, 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:21.640 but whole countries like France, in Denmarket, Singapore, China, many 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:24.040 of them saying we would love to have you come 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:29.040 here and do your work on log COVID, on depression, 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:34.440 on diabetes, on high risk pregnancies, and Alzheimer's, all of 0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:37.600 these areas that we know at least some people, particularly 0:22:37.600 --> 0:22:40.440 in the institutions that have been targeted, including Harvard Columbia, 0:22:40.480 --> 0:22:43.240 Johns Hopkins and others, you have had their work stopped. 0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:46.520 And so I think the brain drain risk is very real. 0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:51.080 While we are cutting back many billions of dollars, and 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:56.000 we are telling our scientists today and our future scientists 0:22:56.200 --> 0:22:58.879 that we have disdain for. 0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:02.480 Your expertise, and we don't believe your expertise. 0:23:02.800 --> 0:23:06.359 We're going to make you continually prove your expertise, and 0:23:06.400 --> 0:23:08.520 we're gonna have an uncertain regulatory environment. 0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:11.160 And then you have China is an exception saying actually 0:23:11.160 --> 0:23:12.400 we're going to invest a trillion dollars. 0:23:12.440 --> 0:23:16.120 We're going to invest trillion dollars in new science over 0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:18.359 I think it was the next decade. So you have 0:23:18.920 --> 0:23:21.439 some countries like, all right, hundreds of millions of dollars 0:23:21.560 --> 0:23:23.639 and China be like, actually a trillion dollars, and we're like, 0:23:24.480 --> 0:23:26.280 we're just we're just going to like lop Off, like 0:23:26.320 --> 0:23:30.280 tens of billions of dollars, and I don't think anything 0:23:30.280 --> 0:23:31.160 about that is efficient. 0:23:31.480 --> 0:23:34.919 I think that it is actually profoundly inefficient. 0:23:35.960 --> 0:23:40.639 We also saw that the Association of American Medical Colleges 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:44.000 is saying that by twenty thirty six, we will be 0:23:44.080 --> 0:23:49.440 short eighty six thousand physicians. Eighty six thousand. This is 0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:54.520 real major impact on literally everyone. I think of the 0:23:54.560 --> 0:23:57.280 people because we've done an episode on maternal health where 0:23:57.280 --> 0:24:00.479 we were talking about folks who were in like basically 0:24:00.560 --> 0:24:03.080 health deserts where they had to travel very, very far 0:24:03.200 --> 0:24:05.840 to see a doctor. Now reduce a number of doctors 0:24:05.880 --> 0:24:09.320 that are available even more. We are going to see 0:24:09.359 --> 0:24:12.320 that people will not have a good quality of life, 0:24:12.359 --> 0:24:15.800