1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:10,039 Speaker 1: I'm TT and I'm Zakiah, and this is Dope Labs. 2 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship. Okay, 4 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: we got to jump into it because a lot has 5 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: been happening in the education and research space. 6 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 7 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: I mean, on June fourth of this year, so twenty 8 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: twenty five, Trump issued a proclamation suspending the entry of 9 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: international students to Harvard for six months, and he cited 10 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: what he's calling national security concerns and non compliance with 11 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:47,279 Speaker 1: federal information requests regarding foreign students' activities. 12 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 3: And the president of Harvard says that's nonsense. 13 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: And people just think that's undergrad but that's graduate students 14 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: and postdocs, okay, And Harvard's just the headline for now. 15 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: But last month, the White House froze two hundred ten 16 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: million dollars in Princeton's grants, and within days we saw 17 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: Columbia pen Brown, you know, all the other IVY leagues, 18 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: we saw half billion dollar funding holes on all of 19 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: their funding for ideological non compliance or. 20 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 3: What they say is ideological non compliance. 21 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 2: Right. 22 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 1: All this weird, right, this feels like to me, I know, 23 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: beef when I see and this feels like beef. Absolutelyef, absolutely, 24 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: I mean, the Department of Homeland Security is saying this 25 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 1: is a national security issue and is accusing Harvard of 26 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: everything from anti Semitism to like being in bed with 27 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: the Chinese Communist Party, and a federal judge is already 28 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:41,960 Speaker 1: hit pause on this. But the message is loud and messy. 29 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: It is definitely beef. And the hit list is not 30 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: just on the education side, it's on the agency side too. 31 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: So we've seen budget slashes to NIH, CDC, NSLF SO 32 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: anywhere from forty to sixty seven percent overnight sometimes. So 33 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if you are a biologist at Hopkins 34 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 1: or a grad student at MIT, or a postoc like 35 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: you were saying, Zakiya, the message is the same, and 36 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: that feeds straight into today's big conversation on the impacts 37 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: of these cuts. This is a great place to jump 38 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: into the recitation. So let's start there. What do we 39 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: know tt Well, we know these executive orders and cuts 40 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: are coming fast and furious. 41 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,119 Speaker 3: It feels like every day there's something new. 42 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:31,399 Speaker 1: It's almost disorienting because every day a new cut happens 43 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: or a new regulation comes out and it's just like 44 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: what is going on? 45 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 3: You can barely keep up with the news. 46 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: And I think what's interesting is that some of this, 47 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: I guess feels illegal, but we know that there is 48 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,359 Speaker 1: some legal ground that the administration has and that they're 49 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: clinging to that gives the president the right to do all. 50 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 2: Of this stuff, right. 51 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: But we also know that folks are not taking this 52 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 1: lying down and people are actively suing the administration to 53 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: try and block these up. So that's what we know. 54 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: But what do we want to know about what's going on? 55 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: I want to talk about the different agencies and how 56 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: the cuts will impact our day today lives, because I 57 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: know it will. 58 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 2: Yes, it definitely does. 59 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: And I am seeing right now a lot of scientists, students, 60 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: you know, I do a lot of work with students 61 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: that I'm following. They're saying, do I need to change fields? 62 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: I'm in the sciences. Do I need to move to 63 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: another country? So I want to know more about the 64 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: brain drain? But what that means for scholars in America? 65 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,119 Speaker 1: What does that mean for America's collective brain? I'd love 66 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: that question, and I want to know if there are 67 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: any other cuts that we can expect, like what are 68 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: the tea leaves saying? 69 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 3: Can we anticipate some of these things? 70 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. And the biggest question for me is figuring 71 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: out what we can do to help fight the good 72 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: fight against misinformation and still champion research, innovation and diversity 73 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: of thought that we know is so important and that's 74 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: important to us. That's what Dope Labs is all about. 75 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: We love the science of everything and we know how 76 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: important it is for our collective global community. So with that, 77 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: I think we're ready to jump into the dissection. We 78 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: are so excited to have our guests in our new 79 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: very smart friend, doctor Chelsea Clinton, to help us navigate 80 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 1: this rarefied air. 81 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:21,280 Speaker 2: Hi. 82 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 4: I'm doctor Chose Clinton. I'm the vice chair of the 83 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:25,359 Speaker 4: Clinton Foundation. 84 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 5: I've also been really lucky to teach a lot of classes. 85 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 4: At the Family School of Public Health. 86 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:34,840 Speaker 6: At Columbia, have written a number of books invest in 87 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 6: founders that are trying to help our world be healthier 88 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:40,039 Speaker 6: and more sustainable. 89 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: So I think where we want to start with is 90 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: setting the stage for what research touches in our society. 91 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: Because science is under attack and it's in the headlines 92 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 1: a lot. Can you speak broadly about how research shapes 93 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 1: how we experience our world. 94 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 5: Oh my goodness, TD, what has research not shaped? 95 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 4: We're together here on Zoom, facilitated by computers and the 96 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 4: Internet and electricity. 97 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 5: These are all products research. 98 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 4: We have medicine, whether we're thinking about vaccines that are, yes, 99 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 4: the product of lots and lots of research to hopefully 100 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:27,679 Speaker 4: prevent us from getting sick. And it's terrible allergy season 101 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 4: right now. I'm so thankful to allergy medicine and the 102 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 4: research that produced it, so I'm not constantly like teary 103 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 4: eyed and coughing and sneezing from the moment I wake up. 104 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 4: I have three kids and they're all obsessed without our space. 105 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 4: And we got to go to Cape Canaveral last year 106 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 4: on a family trip, and I'll never forget when we 107 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 4: were just like on a regular amazing tour and saw 108 00:05:55,480 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 4: the control room where scientists and other folks had been 109 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 4: stationed when we first sent a man to the moon, 110 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 4: and our tour guide either told us or it was 111 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 4: on a plaque that there's more computing power now in 112 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 4: an iPhone than there was in that entire room back 113 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 4: in nineteen sixty nine, or like my kids can't believe 114 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 4: we used to get lost. 115 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 5: Yeah, like they're so surprised. 116 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 4: Like when I talk about like when Grandma and pop 117 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 4: Up and I would go on trips and we would drive. 118 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 4: Often we'd go to Atlanta and drive to South Carolina, 119 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,799 Speaker 4: and sometimes we would take purposeful side adventures, and sometimes 120 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 4: we would take accidental side adventures and we would have 121 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 4: to stop and. 122 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 5: Ask re directions. Like they can't get over that. 123 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:44,919 Speaker 4: And I'm like, I know, we didn't have maps on 124 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 4: phone in our pockets. 125 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: They've never seen a map quest print out. 126 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 5: Right, like not Lattice West. It's like research anyway. Research. 127 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: Yes, my niece and nephew don't understand commercials. They're used 128 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: to everything being on demand. 129 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 5: Yes, converged, isn't it funny? 130 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: And I think that brings up like when you talk 131 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: about just how leaving your home and choosing Google Maps 132 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: or Apple Maps to take you from point A to 133 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: point B. First of all, some people are getting lost 134 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: with that. And can you imagine traveling in space with 135 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: less technology? Going to space with less technology than that 136 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: is wild to me. But I think these research initiatives 137 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: that lead to products and tangible things that materially change 138 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: how we exist, how we interact with one another. I 139 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: think the thing that people sometimes separate from researchers. 140 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 2: They're like, oh, that's innovation or technology, but. 141 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: It takes so much, it takes so many resources. I 142 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: think about how these huge institutions like the National Institute 143 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: of Health, the FDA, the CDC, these are huge pillars 144 00:07:55,800 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: in our national society, but globally what as well, And 145 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: I think it's important for people to understand why we 146 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: need these huge research institutions. 147 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 4: We absolutely need the National Institutes of Health and the 148 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 4: other parts of our public health infrastructure and ecosystem in 149 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 4: our country. I think not only about the National in 150 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 4: Suits of Health and all of the extraordinary research that 151 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 4: it has supported over the years to help on everything 152 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 4: from enabling the first sequencing of the human genome right. 153 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: Yes, the human genome project was huge and from nineteen 154 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: ninety to basically two thousand and three a long time 155 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: scientists were working to give us the full genome of 156 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 1: a human, but also other organisms that we used to 157 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: understand human conditions and science. So you coline that bacteria 158 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: Baker's yeast, sacromic Sarah visit sounded like Harry pottersmatos yes, 159 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: and mice just a couple episodes ago, we were talking 160 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: about fat studies understanding fat metabolism in mice that wouldn't 161 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 1: be possible without the Human Genail Project. 162 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 4: Which was a lot of work that was made possible 163 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 4: because of NIH funding. To everything that we're still learning 164 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 4: about cancer, to all that we thankfully do know about allergies, 165 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 4: to all the vital work that's being done on mental health, 166 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 4: which historically hasn't received the funding that would be merited 167 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 4: if we just think about all of the mental health 168 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 4: challenges across our population. Overdose deaths dropped last year for 169 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,839 Speaker 4: the first time in decades and dropped, and I think 170 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 4: this is right. Forty eight out of fifty states, I 171 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 4: think only two states had an increase in overdose death. 172 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 4: So much of what we know about how to help 173 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 4: prevent addiction use disorders, treat addiction use disorders, save someone's 174 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 4: life so that they can get into treatment. 175 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:04,079 Speaker 1: Narcan the nasal spray that can reverse an opioid overdose. 176 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 4: And I think what you said before is just so 177 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 4: spot on, Like people think of it as innovation or discovery, 178 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 4: like these other words are so closely linked to research, 179 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 4: but may not always be understood as such. 180 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,839 Speaker 1: Just thinking of the impact that research has had in 181 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: the ways that you were saying, cancer research, allergy research, 182 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: all of these things that totally progress us are now 183 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: being impacted. We saw that a leaked budget pass back 184 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: shows that of NIH is going to get cut and 185 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: then forty four percent to the CDC. Can you speak 186 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: about how losses on that scale have a ripple effect 187 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: through biomedical discovery and the public health safety Net? 188 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I think TD I also saw that leak budget, 189 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 4: I guess about a month ago now, and I think 190 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 4: we can think about this in a number of ways, 191 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 4: and I think they're all super critical for people to understand. 192 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 4: And I will say too, like I also am a 193 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:27,079 Speaker 4: believer in efficiency, but efficiency generally means doing more with 194 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 4: the same amount or trying to have even better outcomes 195 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 4: with the same amount of money. 196 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,319 Speaker 5: It's not getting rid of things wholesale. 197 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 4: And we know through multiple research efforts that for every 198 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 4: dollar that the NH has invested, many many times that 199 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 4: amount is generated through how those research innovations and discoveries 200 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 4: get commercialized in ANH case, often with medical device companies 201 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 4: or pharmaceutical companies. And I think what also often isn't 202 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,359 Speaker 4: well understood, is yes, of course, like that those innovations 203 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:11,319 Speaker 4: and help save so many lives, help really disrupt diseases 204 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 4: that have beleaguered humanity for not only thousands, but sometimes 205 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 4: millions of years. But it's also about all of the 206 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:24,079 Speaker 4: jobs that are supported through those research grants. The NIH, 207 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 4: I think, over the last handful of years, has supported 208 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 4: research funding and more than two thousand academic institutions and 209 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 4: hospitals through small research partners. You think about all of 210 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 4: the jobs that are supported directly by those research grants 211 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 4: in laboratories, but also the people who work in those buildings, 212 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 4: then the people who work in the coffee shops or 213 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,319 Speaker 4: the restaurants or the bars, where the people who work 214 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 4: in those buildings then spend time before after work, where 215 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 4: those people's children go to school. And so it's really, 216 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 4: I think purposefully in a wonderful way that NIH has 217 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 4: really been the National Institutes of Health and recognize that 218 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 4: super smart researchers are in institutions big and small, in 219 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 4: like every corner of our country, and that their potential, 220 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 4: their ideas, they're hoped for discoveries and innovations merit being funded. 221 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 4: After of course going through a super rigorous process to 222 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,319 Speaker 4: assess which among those really deserve the dollars. 223 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 5: In any given year. 224 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 4: So TD, it's really just it's not only catastrophic for 225 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 4: what we won't discover to help keep all of us healthier, 226 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 4: it's what we then won't create in terms of wealth 227 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 4: because we're not having those companies created, or people who 228 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 4: are healthier who can then go to work for longer. 229 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 4: It's also about all of the people whose lives are 230 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 4: being currently disrupted or who are worried that their lives 231 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 4: are going to be disrupted because of interruptions and funding. 232 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 1: Absolutely, this is a great point because when we're thinking 233 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,599 Speaker 1: about research, sometimes folks think of this as people in 234 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,079 Speaker 1: lab coats, but there's an entire infrastructure that supports those 235 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: folks and their equipments. There's industries and jobs outside of 236 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: research that will be impacted by funding cuts. And because 237 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: of this, we're seeing a lot of scientists choosing to 238 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: take their talents to South Beach like Lebron And when 239 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: I say South Beach, I don't mean Miami. Now, I'm 240 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: talking about outside of the United States. 241 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 5: Countries are actively recruiting our scientists. 242 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 4: Yes, I'm sure that you both have a lot of 243 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 4: friends like I have friends who've gotten job offers from 244 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 4: literally all over the world. The European Union is setting 245 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 4: aside hundredsivillions of dollars. Individual countries are setting aside like 246 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 4: ten civilians or hundreds civilions of dollars. Some countries have 247 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 4: whole new departments that have sprung up, yes, to try 248 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 4: to recruit American scientists. It's very hard for me to 249 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 4: reconcile the we're going to make America grade again while 250 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 4: we are actively undermining part of what has made America 251 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 4: grade again, which is like the many decades long partnership 252 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 4: between the public sector and the private sector, between academic 253 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 4: institutions and private industry, between people who work in labs 254 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 4: and then those who build companies off of the research 255 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 4: that those labs generate. And that's part of what hasn't 256 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 4: made our country healthier and more sustainable and wealthier. And 257 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 4: I don't think it's an accident that now you have 258 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 4: so many countries trying to recruit away our best scientists. 259 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 4: And also, as we saw in our recent Nature report, 260 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 4: the three quarters of them were thinking about leaving. 261 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 3: Yes. 262 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 1: I talked to someone who was in public health, and 263 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: she was saying, what happens to my field if we're 264 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: not tracking what's happening. She was working on maternal health 265 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: and infant Oh. 266 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, because we got rid of the pregnancy Risk Assessment monitoring. 267 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 2: Success and so she was the less than is the eighties. 268 00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 4: And a couple of weeks after Trump took office, we 269 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 4: didn't publish something called the Weekly Morbidity Immortality Report, which 270 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 4: I know sounds super wonky and probably a lot of 271 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 4: people listening to like, what is that and why should 272 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 4: it care? Well, we had published it every week in America, 273 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 4: including through multiple wars. After the tragedy of the terrorist 274 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 4: attacks on nine to eleven, the CDC had published that 275 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 4: every week since the early nineteen sixties, and then we 276 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 4: just didn't And. 277 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 5: Now we're back to publishing it. 278 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 4: But it just shows you how much we've taken for 279 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 4: granted that we have a government that, through different presidential administrations, 280 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 4: even through the first Dump administration, that had a real 281 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 4: commitment to tracking the public health and wellbeing of Americans. 282 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 4: How many people got sick with bird flu this week? 283 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 4: How many people died from gun violence? What are the 284 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 4: rising rates of depression or cancer? What are the questions 285 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 4: and we should be asking from shift's immortality, how many 286 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 4: people have died and morbidity, how many people may have 287 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 4: gotten sick or injured, and we just like didn't do that. 288 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 4: And in fact, multiple data sets have now been taken down, 289 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 4: which of course makes it harder. Back to the theme 290 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 4: of research for researchers, including can you imagine when you 291 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 4: were like applying to PhD programs. If you're like, oh, 292 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 4: I think I want to do this. I know the 293 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 4: government tracks all this data and anything from food safety, 294 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 4: water safety to cancer rates. You're like, I go to 295 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 4: this website to check this government data. Worse, then all 296 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 4: of a sudden it's not there, gone gone, And. 297 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: The Morbidity and Mortality report allows us to find out 298 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: what's going on in the United States. I can recall 299 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: reading this back in maybe it was April or May, 300 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 1: but there was one of the newsletters that said, hey, 301 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: people are doing these procedures at this medical spa, and 302 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: now we realize this was a source of HIV because 303 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 1: of how they were doing this needle procedure a beauty spot. Okay, 304 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: in order to figure these things out what's happening, you 305 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: have to have somebody that's tracking and surveilling, which is 306 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 1: what some of our major centers do. 307 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 4: Proposed cuts for the centers for disease control, Well, certainly 308 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 4: we can our outbreak surveillance and responsiveness. And I do 309 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 4: take quite seriously the people who are part of the 310 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 4: Trump administration who are committed, as they say, you make 311 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 4: America healthy. But I struggle given other parts of the 312 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 4: administration are so supportive of the cuts to NIH research funding, 313 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 4: including on chronic disease. Of the cuts that have already 314 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 4: been levied against multiple universities are inclusive of cardio metabolic 315 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 4: health broadly diabetes in particular. I also struggle because the 316 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 4: EPA cuts will make it much harder to enforce clean 317 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 4: water and clean air regulations. There's also been rumors that 318 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 4: they may clawback some of the rules and guidelines around 319 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 4: how much chemical effluent can be released into water as 320 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 4: industrial wastewater, and so I also don't want there to 321 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 4: be artificial red and yellow food dye and our food. 322 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 4: And I also recognize that we need to do a 323 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 4: better job of helping all of us understand the importance 324 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 4: of things that all our grandmothers probably new intuitively and 325 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 4: we seem to have forgotten, like go outside when you 326 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 4: can get a good night's sleep, like drink a lot 327 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 4: of water, eat a balanced meal. And yet it's just 328 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 4: it's impossible for me to reconcile that with the cuts 329 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 4: to funding around how best to help people do that, 330 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 4: with the proposed cuts that are currently being debated now 331 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 4: in Congress to supplemental nutritional benefits making it harder for 332 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 4: low income Americans to be able to afford healthy food, 333 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 4: harder to think we're going to urge people to go outside, 334 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 4: but the air quality is going to be worse, and 335 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 4: DAN and. 336 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: All of those things compound, and it also makes me 337 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: think about, you know, we are freshly off of a pandemic, 338 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 1: all of that research that is trying to be done 339 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: to understand long term effects of having COVID, some folks 340 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 1: that are still suffering with long COVID and just understanding 341 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: COVID as a virus itself. And you have someone in 342 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 1: an administration, You have a cabinet that does not believe 343 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: in vaccines. You have folks that are in charge of 344 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: our health and safety who just don't believe in certain things, 345 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: and that will have a negative impact on all of us. Chelsea, 346 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 1: you talk about brain drain a lot and brain drain 347 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: is the migration of highly skilled, highly educated, and professionally 348 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: specialized people from one place to another where their talents 349 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: are needed, or to another where their talents are respected 350 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: and that get better pay, research funding, political stability, quality 351 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: of life, or career prospects. I want to know what 352 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 1: you think about brain drain for the United States or 353 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: the possibility of it coming up really soon. 354 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 4: So the United States has been, and I don't think 355 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 4: this is a controversial statement, truly has been the envy 356 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 4: of the world from a research and scientific knowledge production 357 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 4: capacity perspective. And that's been true for a few reasons. 358 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 4: One the strength of our universities. Partly that strength, of 359 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 4: course has been catalyzed and then supported by research investments 360 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 4: through our universities, partly because of our student visa program, 361 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 4: which is also under threat. And so for great students 362 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 4: from anywhere with great ideas who got into a great 363 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 4: American university, that there were pathways for them than to 364 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 4: be able to come here and study. And then on 365 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 4: the other side that we have whole countries, not even 366 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 4: just like academic institutions and other parts of the world, 367 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:21,640 Speaker 4: but whole countries like France, in Denmarket, Singapore, China, many 368 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 4: of them saying we would love to have you come 369 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 4: here and do your work on log COVID, on depression, 370 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 4: on diabetes, on high risk pregnancies, and Alzheimer's, all of 371 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 4: these areas that we know at least some people, particularly 372 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 4: in the institutions that have been targeted, including Harvard Columbia, 373 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 4: Johns Hopkins and others, you have had their work stopped. 374 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 5: And so I think the brain drain risk is very real. 375 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 4: While we are cutting back many billions of dollars, and 376 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 4: we are telling our scientists today and our future scientists 377 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 4: that we have disdain for. 378 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 5: Your expertise, and we don't believe your expertise. 379 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 4: We're going to make you continually prove your expertise, and 380 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 4: we're gonna have an uncertain regulatory environment. 381 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 5: And then you have China is an exception saying actually 382 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:12,400 Speaker 5: we're going to invest a trillion dollars. 383 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:16,120 Speaker 4: We're going to invest trillion dollars in new science over 384 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 4: I think it was the next decade. So you have 385 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 4: some countries like, all right, hundreds of millions of dollars 386 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 4: and China be like, actually a trillion dollars, and we're like, 387 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 4: we're just we're just going to like lop Off, like 388 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 4: tens of billions of dollars, and I don't think anything 389 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 4: about that is efficient. 390 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,919 Speaker 5: I think that it is actually profoundly inefficient. 391 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 1: We also saw that the Association of American Medical Colleges 392 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: is saying that by twenty thirty six, we will be 393 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 1: short eighty six thousand physicians. Eighty six thousand. This is 394 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: real major impact on literally everyone. I think of the 395 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: people because we've done an episode on maternal health where 396 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,479 Speaker 1: we were talking about folks who were in like basically 397 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: health deserts where they had to travel very, very far 398 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: to see a doctor. Now reduce a number of doctors 399 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: that are available even more. We are going to see 400 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: that people will not have a good quality of life, 401 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: people will die, will be more sick. America is not 402 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: going to be a healthy, happy place where people can thrive. 403 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 1: And we'll see that probably on the coasts there will 404 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: be more doctors there, but the middle of America will 405 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: suffer the most. 406 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 4: I'm from Arkansas originally, and in Arkansas, more than thirty 407 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 4: percent of women in Arkansas live more than two hours 408 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 4: from anything that could be considered like women's healthcare, and 409 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,919 Speaker 4: so that also is a painful part of this conversation too, 410 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 4: because we think about all of the innovations made possible 411 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 4: by research for things like at home testing or where 412 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 4: telehealth could be really powerful to help close care gaps. 413 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 4: But what will the next generation of all those innovations 414 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 4: be if we don't have research to try to continue 415 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 4: to improve upon them and to continue to push them forward. 416 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 5: I don't know. 417 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 4: And TD again, I know we talked about the data 418 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 4: sets earlier, but Texas and Georgia have said they're no 419 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,360 Speaker 4: longer going to share maternal health data and now if 420 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 4: we don't have the federal government provide it was ongoing 421 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 4: of surveillance function that it had been doing again I 422 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 4: think since the nineteen eighties. It's also just going to 423 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 4: be well impossible to hold people accountable for either policy 424 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 4: decisions or practice decisions that could lead to women dying 425 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 4: while pregnant or in childbirth or postpartum. It also, though, 426 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,120 Speaker 4: then makes it much harder, if not impossible, to purpose 427 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 4: research into the areas where we should be investing. Yes, dollars, 428 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,719 Speaker 4: but also the people like the two of you, who 429 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 4: are looking to do something to help save more women 430 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 4: who are pregnant or giving further postpartum because they won't 431 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 4: necessarily know what they've died from, right, so they won't 432 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 4: know what indications to investigate. 433 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: I think there are so many things it feels almost 434 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 1: insidious because we are losing the tracking, We're losing the surveillance, 435 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: the ability to see what's coming. We're losing the strength 436 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: to fight anything once it arrives. And I think we 437 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 1: want to consider these are decisions being made, but what 438 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: I don't want us to lose is both hope and 439 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 1: agency and ability to act. 440 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 2: Absolutely when we think. 441 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: About standing in the face of calls that are coming 442 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:41,360 Speaker 1: from far away, and some people are choosing to privately 443 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 1: maintain things. I'm hearing about citizen science efforts, I'm hearing 444 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 1: about a lot of community things that are happening. While 445 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: we might not be able to stop funding cuts and 446 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 1: talent flight, there may be other things that we, as 447 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 1: people with platforms, our listeners, as people with platforms and communities, 448 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: can do to push back against the negative rhetoric we 449 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 1: hear around science and research and even how they might 450 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 1: engage people in their day to day lives. 451 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 4: Oh gosh, well, I would say one they are probably 452 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,160 Speaker 4: as many right answers as there are are people listening, 453 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 4: like we each know, like our families are our communities best. 454 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 4: I do think at a kind of at a community, 455 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 4: at a state level, I would certainly urge all of 456 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 4: us to know what is happening in our communities and 457 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 4: our states when it relates to research. There are states 458 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 4: that very much are who have taken action against the 459 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 4: Trump administration. In some of these areas, there are universities 460 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:43,439 Speaker 4: who've taken action against the Trump administration, effectively saying, oh, 461 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 4: you can't stop paying for work that you committed to 462 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 4: pay for, like these grants or contracts, like this is illegal. 463 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 5: I think it's channeling my grandmother again here. 464 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 4: Like the discipline of gratitude I think matters, Like saying 465 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 4: thank you and like we're so grateful and we're standing 466 00:27:59,240 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 4: with you. 467 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 5: I think matters. 468 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,880 Speaker 4: I think only thirty nine states have currently the ability 469 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,639 Speaker 4: to assess even some level of food safety. If you're 470 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 4: in one of the eleven states where that's not true, 471 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 4: you should probably know that about calling actually not only 472 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 4: your governor and state legislature, but probably you're senator and 473 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 4: congress people too, if that's something you're concerned about. 474 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 5: So I just think You're so right. These have to 475 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:24,880 Speaker 5: be such localized efforts. 476 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 4: And I think even one of the things I do 477 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 4: with our kids, and I don't know if this is 478 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 4: helpful for other people who might be parents or who 479 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 4: have small humans in their lives, they do try to 480 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 4: help my kids understand like there really is science all 481 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 4: around us, right, and so whether that is there just 482 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 4: amazement that we have maps in our pockets, or it's 483 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 4: the multivitamin that they take with breakfast in the morning, 484 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 4: that really science is all around us, and that means 485 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 4: like research is all around us. And I hope that 486 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 4: then helps them, whether they grow up to be scientists 487 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 4: or not, understand and just the incalculable debt that we 488 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 4: owe to the many generations of people who have had 489 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 4: such profound optimism, which I think science is to believe 490 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 4: that there's more to know and more to understand, and 491 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 4: more to do to try to help keep our world 492 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 4: healthier and safer and full of even more wonder. 493 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: That's one of me and the Key's favorite things to say. 494 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 1: We say science is in everything in science is for everybody, 495 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: and so everything you're saying that just speaks to our heart. 496 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: We firmly believe in continuing to educate yourself and don't 497 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: shut up. 498 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 3: That was the takeaway. 499 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: Keep talking, keep talk, learning more, talking about what you've learned, 500 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: and making sure that we are holding folks accountable and 501 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: saying no, that is not true. 502 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 2: This is what we need. 503 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,479 Speaker 3: These are the things that we require when we live 504 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 3: in this country. It is our right to ask for 505 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 3: those things. 506 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: It is our right to demand more from our governments, 507 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: and so we should not be quiet, turn up our marketphone. 508 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 2: Yes. 509 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 4: And also the Trump administration saying they're no longer going 510 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 4: to prove the COVID vaccine for healthy kids and adults. 511 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 5: Also call it the hypocrisy. 512 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 4: Like you say, in one side, you think parents should 513 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 4: have vaccine choice, and now you're saying to parents that 514 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 4: we don't have vaccine choice. 515 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 2: Right. The math isn't mathing. 516 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 5: Yeah, that math doesn't math like that is not that 517 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 5: is not reconcilable. 518 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: The more we talk about these things help people frame them, 519 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 1: because you don't always get to put these pieces of information. 520 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 2: First of all, there's so much coming out day to 521 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 2: day you don't get to and. 522 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 5: That's on purpose. 523 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 4: To write the chaos and the there was like a 524 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 4: brief period a few weeks ago where the trumpstration proposed 525 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:44,479 Speaker 4: like cutting all like pet food safety regulation, and then 526 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 4: a few days later there was a salmonella outbreak in 527 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 4: pet food and so then they were like, oh, wait, no, 528 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 4: we maybe need this people, because there is such a 529 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 4: barrage that I think is purposeful to force a response. 530 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 4: And then also the barrage is partly fueled by whatever 531 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 4: the reversals are to what had been said, sometimes even 532 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 4: earlier that same day. 533 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: So's the goal is not to get disoriented, to stay 534 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: the course, pick a topic. 535 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 5: Yep, and understand what's real and not real. Yep. 536 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: This has been such an important conversation and one that 537 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: I think puts a lot of context around how these 538 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: cuts will impact all of our lives. Yes, I think 539 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: what you said at the n Chelsea is crucial. Don't 540 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: let the disorienting nature of the news quiet you. Yes, 541 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 1: we have to stay the course. We have to keep 542 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: educating ourselves so no one can pull the wool over 543 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: our eyes, and we can't stop calling out the lies 544 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: and hypocrisy. We have our marching orders. We know what 545 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: we have to do, and so me and Zekiah will 546 00:31:43,400 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: continue to yell into these mics. You can find us 547 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: on X and Instagram at Dope Labs podcast, tt is 548 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: on X and Instagram, at dr Underscore t Sho, and 549 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: you can find Zakiya at z said So. 550 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 2: Dope Labs is a production of Lamanada Media. 551 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: Our senior supervising producer is Kristin Lapour and our associate 552 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: producer is Issara Savez. Dope Labs is sound design, edited 553 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: and mixed by James Farber. Lamanada Media's Vice President of 554 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: Partnerships and Production is Jackie Danziger. Executive producer from iHeart 555 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: podcast is Katrina Norvil. 556 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 2: Marketing lead is Alison Kanter. 557 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex 558 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: sudi Ura, with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope Lab 559 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: is executive produced by US T T Show Dia and 560 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: Zakia Wattley.