WEBVTT - The Truth with Lisa Boothe: Why Did Harvard Fire Dr. Martin Kulldorff? 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.360 Imagine being fired for telling the truth. That's exactly what 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:07.360 happened to a friend of the show. So what I've 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:11.400 gotten to know throughout COVID doctor Martin Kolder. He's been 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:14.880 fired from Harvard University, where he's been since two thousand 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:18.080 and three, twenty one years of dedication. This is a 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:21.400 man who's a world renowned epidemiologist and biostatistician. This is 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:25.000 someone for decades who helped the CDC and the FDA 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:29.120 develop their post market vaccine safety systems. Why was he fired? 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:32.919 He was fired because he signed the Great Barrington Declaration. 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:35.320 When he warned us against lockdowns, when he told us 0:00:35.360 --> 0:00:38.080 that kids should be kept in schools, that they should 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:40.600 be able to continue their lives. He told us the 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:43.880 truth about natural immunity. This is a man who warned 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:47.280 us about vaccines too, only telling us that not everyone 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:50.360 needed to get it. All of this has been proven right, 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:54.520 yet still fired from Harvard. So how much of this 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:57.240 is because he just didn't go along with the forced 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:00.400 scientific status quo. We're going to get his tap on 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:03.560 why he thinks he was fired also reflect a little 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:07.400 bit about what we know now since COVID as well. 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:10.160 He's a really good man. He is brave, he is honest, 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:12.960 he is fearless. He told us the truth during COVID. 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:15.800 He has faced big, big consequences as a result of it. 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:17.880 Trust me, you're not gonna want to miss this conversation 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:25.880 with doctor Martin Colder. Well, I'll start off saying, doctor 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:29.399 Martin Colder. Doctor you've asked me to call you Martin, 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:32.120 but just for the audience's purposes, I was going to 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:34.440 fuck you, doctor Colder, but I'm going to call you 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:37.600 Martin throughout the podcast as requested. So I just don't 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:39.720 want people to think I was disrespecting you. But it's 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:41.759 always an honor to have you on the show, Stir. 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:44.319 You've been on before. You're just a truth teller and 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:46.720 that's what we're going to get into in this episode. 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:48.360 But I just appreciate you making the time. 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:51.000 Well, thank you for having me on. It's great talking 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:51.440 to you again. 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:54.880 You know, So, Martin, I was dismayed, I'm sure as 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:57.880 you were, to see the news that you've been a 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:02.080 professor of medicine at Heartard University since two thousand and 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:05.520 three and they decided to fire you after twenty one 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:08.720 years of dedication, you know, for more than two decades. 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:12.720 You helped the CDC, the FDA develop post market vaccine 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:16.400 safety systems. I mean, you're internationally world renowned and they 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:20.720 decided to fire you. What was their explanation, Well. 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:23.840 We had a disagreement with the fundamental issue of science, 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:27.600 which is infection, the quited immunity. So we've known about 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:30.600 that since the thetium plague in four thirty BC, so 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:34.720 for almost two and a half thousand years. By putting 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:38.160 in the vaccine mandates, they are the fact to denying 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:43.600 basic science that we're known for a long time, forcing 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:46.440 people all that it has superior unity to get the vaccine. 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:51.640 So I argued against vaccine mandates both publicly and also 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:55.400 privately in my own case. And for example, at Harvard's 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:59.639 Bringing and Women's at Harvard's mass Teneral mass Dennal Brigham Hospital, 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:01.440 nazis were working. 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:03.639 Theyre any care of of. 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:05.560 COVID patients, and then they get COVID, so they were 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:07.079 all for a few weeks and then they go back 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:09.519 to work and they take care of w COVID patients. 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:12.560 But then when the vaccine came, they are fired because 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:16.079 they didn't take the vaccine, because they didn't need it. 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:19.720 They didn't they already had superior immunity from having had COVID, 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:23.240 And of course that was a decision made by the 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:26.240 bureaucrats hospital and University of Bureaucrats. 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:28.399 So I was in the same situation. 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:32.119 I didn't I never feeded the patients because a matter 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:36.600 of physician, I'm a PhD, apnologist and the biostatistician, so 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:40.520 I didn't need it. I have a genetic condition that 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:45.920 makes me uh a very h uwione deficiency called off 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:48.600 A one of the tryptian deficiency, so I didn't know 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:50.280 what the risk was from the vaccine for me. 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:53.200 And I also thought it was unethical. 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:55.720 Because all the people they need the vaccines because they 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:59.520 had the high risk of dying from COVID. So when 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:02.600 there's a VACS see if short as if you're pro vaccine, 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:05.400 suppose it's just a perfect vaccine that no side of 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:08.400 vicine does that. But suppose it was a perfect vaccine, 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:10.840 you wouldn't want to few pro vaccine. You wouldn't want 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:12.320 to give it to people who don't need it. When 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:15.800 there are people around the world, like my eighty seven 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:17.880 year old neighbor, for example, who hadn't gotten it yet, 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:20.720 so there was an unethical to take the vaccine if 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:22.520 you don't need it, if the other people who do 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:23.000 need it. 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:26.200 But you were right. I just I guess I could 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:28.880 maybe see at the very beginning of all of this, 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:32.080 you know, when we didn't really have the full information, 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:33.920 I still would think that was wrong. I would still 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:38.200 disagree with it. But everything you just laid out we 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:41.200 know to be true. I mean, that's just factual information. 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:45.599 So they're firing you over stating facts. 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:48.720 Well, it was true from four hundred and thirty BC 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:54.560 until two thousand and nineteen, and then it wasn't true 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:58.040 from twenty and twenty until twenty twenty three, I guess, 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:00.920 and now it's true again. So so I guess that's 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:01.680 one way to see it. 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:04.839 Do you think this is Harvard driven or do you 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.480 think they got some sort of external pressure because I 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:10.600 know that, you know, Anthony Fauci went to war against 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:13.160 you for speaking the truth and the other Great Barrington signers, 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:15.320 which we'll get into a bit. I mean, do you 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:17.360 do you think this is Harvard's decision or do they 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:19.440 face some sort of external pressure? 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:24.320 Well, it's the decision at that it's a decision by 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:28.320 the Harvard's Mass General Brigham Hospital where I worked, don 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:34.160 of Harvard Medical School, because they think they could have 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:37.159 given me an exemption. They gave exemptions to other faculty member, 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:39.240 other staff, so they could if they wanted, they could 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:42.760 have given me an exemption. There was plenty of medical 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:45.560 reasons to provide me an exemptions if they wanted to. 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:48.080 But of course there's also outside pressure. 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:56.679 The Mass General Brigham is the biggest recipience of research 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:59.640 funding FORMMIA except the tune of a billion dollars, more 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:04.599 than a billion dollars a year, and so of course 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:08.640 they are very sensitive to what the Anthony Fautschelt was 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:11.160 the head of the nationally City of Maggy and a 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:14.360 victial diseases as what Process Collins things was the head 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:18.279 of the NIH. So of course they're very sensitive to 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:23.400 outside pressure as well among these things. So I think 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:25.880 it's a combination. But I mean, I think Harvard was 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:31.279 sort of a leading also institute in pushing for the lockdowns. 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:35.040 That they were the first major university to close down 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:40.080 announced to have a remote learning at which other universities 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:42.359 and colleges sort of followed the Harvard lead. And also 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:45.280 High schools and elementary schools, So that was done long 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:49.320 before the government had any pressure to close schools universities, 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:53.080 so they sort of took a leading approach to close 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:56.880 down the educational institutions. 0:06:56.960 --> 0:06:59.279 And during the lockdowns. 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:03.719 You do you think that this is about you telling 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:06.960 the truth? Or do you think this is because you 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:10.800 sort of challenged the scientific community? Right? I mean there 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:14.160 is this sort of forced consensus that was going on, 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:17.800 you know, led by the Fauci Anthony Fauci, led by 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:20.400 you know. I mean, do you do you think this 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:22.120 is about telling the truth or do you think this 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:25.520 is because you just you wouldn't go along with the program. 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:28.720 We wouldn't go along with the forced consensus. 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:32.520 So I don't know what the ultimate decision was based 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:34.200 on how they I don't know. 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:36.640 I don't know what they were thinking in their brains. 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:40.160 But there were all this long before before the vaccines, 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:44.200 that they were unhappy with me about speaking up about 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:47.200 the Great Brains To Declaration where we criticize school closures 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:49.480 and other lockdown measures and we argue for that at 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:53.680 detection of all the high risk people. So as soon 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:56.160 as that there were there were they were unt happy 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:59.240 about that. So and not not the colleagues that I 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:01.440 work with on a day the basis that I still 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:04.520 have an excellent relationship with everybody I worked with personally, 0:08:05.280 --> 0:08:10.280 but the leadership certainly were unhappy about and had some 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:12.640 complaints about that and. 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:15.239 Remind people, you know, why did you sign the Great 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:19.160 Barrington Declaration and what did it stand for then? And 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:21.880 sort of what do we know now about what you 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:22.520 were saying then. 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:28.400 So the when the pandemic started, there was sort of 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:31.720 an artificial consensus, so they were trying to pretend that 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:34.400 there was a scientific constensus for school closest. 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:35.440 On lockdown, so there never was. 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:38.840 I was one of several infectious to sea sechnologists who 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:41.520 did not agree with it, but it was very hard 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:44.240 to make our words herb because we were only one. 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:50.640 So in October of twenty twenty, I met with Jay Bonacharia, 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:53.440 who was a doctor from Stanford and doctor sat Gup 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:56.520 from Oxcar. It was the world's preeminent infectious to cease 0:08:56.520 --> 0:09:01.280 at neologists. We met being Great Barrington, Massachusetts and the 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:03.920 three of us after the Great Brington Declaration, where we 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:09.319 argued for better protection of older people like less staffotation 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:11.920 in nursing homes, they're more testing in nursing. 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:15.240 Homes and so on, and. 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:18.640 We argue that school should be open, and that we're 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:21.400 still in closed down society with lockdowns because. 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:24.520 Everybody can get effected. 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:26.880 But there's more than a thousand full difference in the 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:29.680 risk of mortality between the older people and the younger people. 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:34.640 So that was against Fauci and sort of the narrative. 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:38.119 But because there were three of us from three reasonably 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:43.280 respectable universities who all worked in the infectious disease, they 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:46.160 couldn't dismiss us completely. So then they sort of instead 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:50.360 started a campaign against us, as the NIS director of 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:53.640 Francis Collins wrote to do take tun of us, considering 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:55.080 us fringe at pineologists. 0:09:56.600 --> 0:09:59.520 But I mean a lot of people agree with us. 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:04.240 So we quickly obtain over one hundred thousand, hundreds of 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:06.080 thousands of co signers. 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:09.200 This almost a million by now, including. 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:13.080 Tens of thousands of the scientists and health professionals. 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:17.440 So the work clearly of big Yeah, it was clearly. 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:19.719 Not a consensus for these in my view of very 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:24.640 unscientific pandemic messure that went against the basic principles of 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:25.280 public health. 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:28.079 Let's take a quick Commercial break more with Martin Kolder 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:33.880 on the other side. What do we know now? I mean, 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:38.480 we're still finding out about the harm that lockdowns had 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:42.440 on you know, kids, on you know, people in general. 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:46.120 I mean, there was just this information from the CDC 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:50.920 showing that the annual average of death related excessive alcohol 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:57.000 use increased twenty nine percent during COVID. We still don't 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:00.040 know the totality of the damage. But what do we do? 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:01.360 What do we know today? 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:04.120 You're right, we don't know all of it. 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:06.079 I mean, we know that test course has gone down 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:10.600 for kids in the US, differ in different states that 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:13.880 depending on how much the schools were closed. We know 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:19.359 there's increasing the mental health issues in well used alcoholism, 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:23.959 but also like opiate overdoses, we know there was less 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:27.800 cancer screening and cancer treatments, and that doesn't show up 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:31.040 in the mortality. Is the statics immediates with because you 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:33.560 don't die immediately different cancers because you don't get the 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:37.200 screened or treated. But that's something that will show up 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:39.840 in in the mortality statistics for years to come. 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:41.280 Somebody who maybe. 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:44.440 Will not die maybe two years from now that would 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:48.920 otherwise have lived now ten twenty years. So these things 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:50.360 is something that we have to live with for a 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:55.120 long time and it's very tragic, I think. But we 0:11:55.200 --> 0:12:00.960 also have the verdict now in looking at overall mortality. 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:04.600 So you can compare access mortality from twenty twenty to 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:07.480 twenty twenty two to two so otherand twenty three, and 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:11.280 we see that the major Western countries, Among major Western countries, 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:15.280 the country that has the lowest access mortality is Sweden, 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:19.160 which is the country that famously did not lockdown. They 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:21.480 did the measures to protect other people and so on, 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:25.600 but they didn't They never closed the elementary schools, they 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:30.079 never closed the day cares, and they kept the businesses 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:34.240 and restaurants open, so and and so on. So we know, 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:37.200 as it's kind of so that's the combination in that 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:41.680 the lockdowns didn't really prevent any death at the same 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:45.360 time the lockdowns that it didn't prevent COVID desk at 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:49.719 the same time it caused death on other aspects of 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:53.439 public health like quadiovascular disease or or mental health or 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:55.480 cancer and so on. 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:58.440 Well, and our remember, you know, Sweden came out of 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:01.840 a great scrutiny for you know, the way they decided 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:05.040 to handle COVID, but you know, it looks like in 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:07.640 terms of outcomes as you laid out, you know, they 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:08.440 came out on top. 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:12.920 Yeah, we'll see the same thing in the in the US, 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:16.640 for example, Florida, they locked down in the spring there, 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:20.160 but then they sort of took a different, more focused 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:24.760 protection approach and the Florida did slightly better than California 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:27.240 if you if you look at age just that COVID 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:32.640 mortality even though California locked down very harshly, so sort 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:35.280 of Florida to do well hasn't the lowest in the 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:38.000 in the state, but it's on the on the on 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:42.120 the positive half of states. We could also compare South Dakota, 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:45.840 who didn't lock down much compared to North Dakota, not 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:50.200 just next to it, and they. 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:51.760 Have a very similar COVID mortality. 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:56.280 Well, and we knew from really early on in the 0:13:56.280 --> 0:14:00.840 pandemic that young people were not as impacted as elderly. 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:05.160 Yet you know, our public health officials never drew that distinction. 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:08.559 Yeah, that's sort of shocking because. 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:14.640 When the COVID reached northern Italy with outbreak there and 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:17.240 in Iran, which was the two places also of China 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:20.080 would where there was sort of outbreaks at the earliest. 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:23.920 I got scared for about ten twenty minutes because I 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:26.680 realized that, okay, this is going to reach. 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:30.640 The whole world. Sooner or late, they will reach every 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:33.800 corner of the globe. So I quickly looked. 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:35.600 At the data from vu Wan because we didn't have 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:37.880 any I don't think we had any mortality in the 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:41.400 US by that time. So I looked at the Vuan data, 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:46.040 and obviously people of all ages would have gotten affected 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:49.840 in Wuhan, but of the people who died, it was 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:55.320 heavily weighted towards all the people. So I did some 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:58.960 back of the envelope calculations and I concluded that the 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:01.880 difference in mortal at risk of mortality was more than 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:03.960 a thousand and four difference between the old and the young. 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:06.760 So then it was obvious that okay, we can. I 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:08.920 was so I was relieved because as a parent, I 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:11.720 care more about my chillers lives for my own life, 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:14.040 so I knew they would be fine. I was never 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:15.920 worried about them. 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:17.600 So it was August done. 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:20.000 We should let kids live their lives young and also 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:25.080 go about their business while we sort of maintaining society 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:28.200 was important society. While we let older people make sure 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:32.920 older people are protected. Instead, we protected the laptop class 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:35.000 who could work from home even if we are twenty 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:38.360 five years old and miniscule risk. Or we had sixty 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:41.080 five year old cab drivers out there driving cabs, and 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:44.040 that's one of the professions where they are most at 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:48.440 hirisks to be exposed. So the lockdowns was the biggest 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:51.800 assault on the working class and the middle class here 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:54.960 in the US since the segregation and the Vietnam War. 0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:57.920 Well, and and to a point that you made earlier, 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:00.960 I mean, there is a real deep and twisted irony. 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:04.640 And you know, we were praising all these nurses and 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:08.080 healthcare workers who worked during the height of the pandemic 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:10.360 and got sick with COVID as a result, and then 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:13.760 we fired them if they decided not to get the vaccine, 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:16.560 when when they already had built up immunity, which, as 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:19.160 you pointed out, has been a thing since the beginning 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:19.560 of time. 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:25.120 It's it's astonishing and tragic, I think, and I think 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:27.640 all those nurses should be higher and back, they should 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:31.200 be off with their jobs back, so as well as 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:32.320 everybody else was fired. 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:34.960 Well, you know, I. 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:37.040 Think in you know, having had a lot of these 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:40.720 conversations with like truth tellers and people like you and 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:44.960 doctor Badicharia and doctor Atlas, who I've all had, you know, 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:49.600 on on my show, it seems like COVID in its entirety, 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:51.760 you know, and obviously was never about the truth. It 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:54.160 was never about the facts, it was never about the evidence. 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:58.160 It was more about people getting in line and then 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:03.240 punishing any dissenters. And that really was across the all fields. Right. 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:05.400 If you're in the media, you spoke out, they try 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:07.679 to punish you. If you're in the scientific community as 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:10.480 you are, they try to punish you. And it seems 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:13.360 like it was more about just shut up and cement. 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:18.439 It was a very authoritarian mindset, yes, And to me 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:22.119 that's sort of shocking. I thought that freewa speech was 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:25.680 sort of a pillar that everybody agreed on, and I 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:28.359 guess that's no longer the case, which is tragic. And 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:31.200 I think if we don't get back to the mindset 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:33.159 of fido or speech, I think that's the end of 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:38.680 Western civilization. I know, and I mean I know scientists 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:41.280 who were fired, I know physicians, nurses was fired. 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:44.280 I know journalist who was fired so on. 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:47.320 So yeah, it hit a lot of people, So I'm 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:49.960 not I'm not surprised that a lot of people just 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:50.359 to say it. 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:52.440 Don't going to shot my mouth. I'm not going to 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:52.960 risk my. 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:59.520 Income and my family for this, So I fully understand 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:01.280 that people would not speak out. 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:04.720 No, I like you in the sense of I can 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:07.840 see why people did not, but you know, like you, 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:10.640 I just I can't be one of those people. I'd 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:14.200 rather you know, if someone tells me you can't press 0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:16.840 the red button, but pressing the red button is what 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:18.640 needs to be done, or is the right thing to do, 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:21.000 I'm just gonna do it, and I guess take the 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:22.400 consequences as they come. 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:23.760 Thank you, Lisa. 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:25.760 I'm glad that you have that attitude, and I think 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:28.840 that's important to have people like you so well, You're. 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:30.960 You're much more brave than me because this is my job. 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:33.480 You know, Like, I think you were a total coward 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:35.960 if you work in the media and you're unwilling to 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:39.840 be honest. But like you risked your career at Harvard 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:42.119 to speak out. I mean you didn't. You didn't have to, 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:44.200 you know, I mean, I think what you guys did 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:44.920 is what's brave. 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:49.320 I have to disagree with that. I'm a scientist. If 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:53.040 I was a chemist, I could keep quiet, But I'm 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:56.400 I'm an affection to SASE scientists, so it's my job 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:58.840 to speak up. I have no other choice in my view, 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:01.720 you know, That's all. 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:04.880 I read the column that you wrote. You had mentioned, 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:08.359 I know you're the CDC. You're briefly on the COVID 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:12.200 vaccine the Safety Technical work Group. It didn't last long 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:14.359 because again, you know, they don't they don't like people 0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:17.040 who tell the truth or raised questions these days. But 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:19.679 you had mentioned that something that didn't sit right you 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:22.399 with you was that the randomized control trials for the 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:25.560 COVID vaccines were not properly designed. What do you mean 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:29.840 by that and how does that impact I guess the 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:33.000 safety of a vaccine or what we know about a 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:34.040 vaccine safety. 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:40.320 So whenever drag or vaccine is approved by FDA, they 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:44.399 have to do this. You need to do randomized trials 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:47.720 to show that it works. And so the good thing 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:50.840 with the COVID trials was that was randomized. That's a 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:54.480 good thing. The bad thing was that the outcome they 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:59.119 looked at was symptomatic disease. Now at all of this 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:02.120 on artless. But I don't really care if you're homesick 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:08.080 for a few days because I have to be in 0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:11.040 bed for two days. What I care about is if 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:13.600 you die. I don't want you to die. I don't 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:16.760 want you to a little hospitalize either, So but that's 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:20.679 what matters. But these trials, the randomized trials that was 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:25.879 designed by fire Cera Moderna, they evaluated symptomatic COVID disease. 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:32.760 They didn't evaluate mortality or they recorded it. But they 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:37.919 recruited mostly young and middle aged adults, so they were 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:40.760 going to survive COVID no matter what the vast majority, 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:43.159 whether they were on the vaccine or the placebo. So 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:46.960 therefore it's not very informative in terms of seeing if 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:49.800 it prevents mortality or not. It's the informative in terms 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:54.040 of symptomatic disease, but that's only relevant or very little importance. 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:56.800 So they designed it wrongly. 0:20:56.520 --> 0:21:01.480 And then and then they stop the trials too soon also, 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:04.720 so they only monitor this for a few months, and 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:06.760 we usually had trials that can go on for years 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:11.920 and years for cancer drag or something like that. So 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:15.919 that's also inappro inappropriate because that means we don't know. 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:19.840 We don't have strong randomized evidence whether for the long 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:25.680 time effect, both of efficacy and address reactions. So they 0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:32.119 should have done designed these differently. And then they did correctly, 0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:36.240 I think, decide not to recruit people who had already 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:39.280 had COVID and too when they had they had a few, 0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:41.199 but they sort of removed that from the analysis, and 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:43.760 I think that was correct because we don't need these 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:46.800 vaccines for those. But then what was wrong was even 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:50.200 though it was tested on people without who hadn't had COVID, 0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:54.560 it was also man that for people who had already 0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:59.080 had COVID. But you don't think it would would would work, Uh, 0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:04.320