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Speaker 1: Imagine being fired for telling the truth. That's exactly what

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Speaker 1: happened to a friend of the show. So what I've

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Speaker 1: gotten to know throughout COVID doctor Martin Kolder. He's been

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Speaker 1: fired from Harvard University, where he's been since two thousand

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Speaker 1: and three, twenty one years of dedication. This is a

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Speaker 1: man who's a world renowned epidemiologist and biostatistician. This is

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Speaker 1: someone for decades who helped the CDC and the FDA

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Speaker 1: develop their post market vaccine safety systems. Why was he fired?

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Speaker 1: He was fired because he signed the Great Barrington Declaration.

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Speaker 1: When he warned us against lockdowns, when he told us

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Speaker 1: that kids should be kept in schools, that they should

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Speaker 1: be able to continue their lives. He told us the

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Speaker 1: truth about natural immunity. This is a man who warned

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Speaker 1: us about vaccines too, only telling us that not everyone

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Speaker 1: needed to get it. All of this has been proven right,

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Speaker 1: yet still fired from Harvard. So how much of this

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Speaker 1: is because he just didn't go along with the forced

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Speaker 1: scientific status quo. We're going to get his tap on

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Speaker 1: why he thinks he was fired also reflect a little

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Speaker 1: bit about what we know now since COVID as well.

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Speaker 1: He's a really good man. He is brave, he is honest,

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Speaker 1: he is fearless. He told us the truth during COVID.

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Speaker 1: He has faced big, big consequences as a result of it.

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Speaker 1: Trust me, you're not gonna want to miss this conversation

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Speaker 1: with doctor Martin Colder. Well, I'll start off saying, doctor

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Speaker 1: Martin Colder. Doctor you've asked me to call you Martin,

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Speaker 1: but just for the audience's purposes, I was going to

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Speaker 1: fuck you, doctor Colder, but I'm going to call you

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Speaker 1: Martin throughout the podcast as requested. So I just don't

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Speaker 1: want people to think I was disrespecting you. But it's

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Speaker 1: always an honor to have you on the show, Stir.

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Speaker 1: You've been on before. You're just a truth teller and

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Speaker 1: that's what we're going to get into in this episode.

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Speaker 1: But I just appreciate you making the time.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you for having me on. It's great talking

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Speaker 2: to you again.

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Speaker 1: You know, So, Martin, I was dismayed, I'm sure as

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Speaker 1: you were, to see the news that you've been a

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Speaker 1: professor of medicine at Heartard University since two thousand and

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Speaker 1: three and they decided to fire you after twenty one

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Speaker 1: years of dedication, you know, for more than two decades.

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Speaker 1: You helped the CDC, the FDA develop post market vaccine

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Speaker 1: safety systems. I mean, you're internationally world renowned and they

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Speaker 1: decided to fire you. What was their explanation, Well.

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Speaker 3: We had a disagreement with the fundamental issue of science,

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Speaker 3: which is infection, the quited immunity. So we've known about

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Speaker 3: that since the thetium plague in four thirty BC, so

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Speaker 3: for almost two and a half thousand years. By putting

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Speaker 3: in the vaccine mandates, they are the fact to denying

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Speaker 3: basic science that we're known for a long time, forcing

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Speaker 3: people all that it has superior unity to get the vaccine.

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Speaker 3: So I argued against vaccine mandates both publicly and also

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Speaker 3: privately in my own case. And for example, at Harvard's

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Speaker 3: Bringing and Women's at Harvard's mass Teneral mass Dennal Brigham Hospital,

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Speaker 3: nazis were working.

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Speaker 2: Theyre any care of of.

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Speaker 3: COVID patients, and then they get COVID, so they were

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Speaker 3: all for a few weeks and then they go back

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Speaker 3: to work and they take care of w COVID patients.

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Speaker 3: But then when the vaccine came, they are fired because

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Speaker 3: they didn't take the vaccine, because they didn't need it.

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Speaker 3: They didn't they already had superior immunity from having had COVID,

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Speaker 3: And of course that was a decision made by the

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Speaker 3: bureaucrats hospital and University of Bureaucrats.

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Speaker 2: So I was in the same situation.

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Speaker 3: I didn't I never feeded the patients because a matter

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Speaker 3: of physician, I'm a PhD, apnologist and the biostatistician, so

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Speaker 3: I didn't need it. I have a genetic condition that

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Speaker 3: makes me uh a very h uwione deficiency called off

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Speaker 3: A one of the tryptian deficiency, so I didn't know

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Speaker 3: what the risk was from the vaccine for me.

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Speaker 2: And I also thought it was unethical.

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Speaker 3: Because all the people they need the vaccines because they

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Speaker 3: had the high risk of dying from COVID. So when

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Speaker 3: there's a VACS see if short as if you're pro vaccine,

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Speaker 3: suppose it's just a perfect vaccine that no side of

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Speaker 3: vicine does that. But suppose it was a perfect vaccine,

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Speaker 3: you wouldn't want to few pro vaccine. You wouldn't want

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Speaker 3: to give it to people who don't need it. When

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Speaker 3: there are people around the world, like my eighty seven

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Speaker 3: year old neighbor, for example, who hadn't gotten it yet,

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Speaker 3: so there was an unethical to take the vaccine if

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Speaker 3: you don't need it, if the other people who do

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Speaker 3: need it.

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Speaker 1: But you were right. I just I guess I could

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Speaker 1: maybe see at the very beginning of all of this,

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Speaker 1: you know, when we didn't really have the full information,

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Speaker 1: I still would think that was wrong. I would still

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Speaker 1: disagree with it. But everything you just laid out we

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Speaker 1: know to be true. I mean, that's just factual information.

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Speaker 1: So they're firing you over stating facts.

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Speaker 3: Well, it was true from four hundred and thirty BC

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Speaker 3: until two thousand and nineteen, and then it wasn't true

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Speaker 3: from twenty and twenty until twenty twenty three, I guess,

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Speaker 3: and now it's true again. So so I guess that's

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Speaker 3: one way to see it.

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Speaker 1: Do you think this is Harvard driven or do you

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Speaker 1: think they got some sort of external pressure because I

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Speaker 1: know that, you know, Anthony Fauci went to war against

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Speaker 1: you for speaking the truth and the other Great Barrington signers,

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Speaker 1: which we'll get into a bit. I mean, do you

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Speaker 1: do you think this is Harvard's decision or do they

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Speaker 1: face some sort of external pressure?

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Speaker 3: Well, it's the decision at that it's a decision by

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Speaker 3: the Harvard's Mass General Brigham Hospital where I worked, don

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Speaker 3: of Harvard Medical School, because they think they could have

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Speaker 3: given me an exemption. They gave exemptions to other faculty member,

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Speaker 3: other staff, so they could if they wanted, they could

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Speaker 3: have given me an exemption. There was plenty of medical

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Speaker 3: reasons to provide me an exemptions if they wanted to.

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Speaker 2: But of course there's also outside pressure.

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Speaker 3: The Mass General Brigham is the biggest recipience of research

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Speaker 3: funding FORMMIA except the tune of a billion dollars, more

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Speaker 3: than a billion dollars a year, and so of course

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Speaker 3: they are very sensitive to what the Anthony Fautschelt was

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Speaker 3: the head of the nationally City of Maggy and a

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Speaker 3: victial diseases as what Process Collins things was the head

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Speaker 3: of the NIH. So of course they're very sensitive to

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Speaker 3: outside pressure as well among these things. So I think

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Speaker 3: it's a combination. But I mean, I think Harvard was

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Speaker 3: sort of a leading also institute in pushing for the lockdowns.

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Speaker 3: That they were the first major university to close down

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Speaker 3: announced to have a remote learning at which other universities

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Speaker 3: and colleges sort of followed the Harvard lead. And also

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Speaker 3: High schools and elementary schools, So that was done long

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Speaker 3: before the government had any pressure to close schools universities,

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Speaker 3: so they sort of took a leading approach to close

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Speaker 3: down the educational institutions.

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Speaker 2: And during the lockdowns.

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Speaker 1: You do you think that this is about you telling

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Speaker 1: the truth? Or do you think this is because you

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Speaker 1: sort of challenged the scientific community? Right? I mean there

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Speaker 1: is this sort of forced consensus that was going on,

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Speaker 1: you know, led by the Fauci Anthony Fauci, led by

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Speaker 1: you know. I mean, do you do you think this

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Speaker 1: is about telling the truth or do you think this

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Speaker 1: is because you just you wouldn't go along with the program.

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Speaker 1: We wouldn't go along with the forced consensus.

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Speaker 3: So I don't know what the ultimate decision was based

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Speaker 3: on how they I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what they were thinking in their brains.

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Speaker 3: But there were all this long before before the vaccines,

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Speaker 3: that they were unhappy with me about speaking up about

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Speaker 3: the Great Brains To Declaration where we criticize school closures

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Speaker 3: and other lockdown measures and we argue for that at

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Speaker 3: detection of all the high risk people. So as soon

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Speaker 3: as that there were there were they were unt happy

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Speaker 3: about that. So and not not the colleagues that I

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Speaker 3: work with on a day the basis that I still

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Speaker 3: have an excellent relationship with everybody I worked with personally,

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Speaker 3: but the leadership certainly were unhappy about and had some

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Speaker 3: complaints about that and.

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Speaker 1: Remind people, you know, why did you sign the Great

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Speaker 1: Barrington Declaration and what did it stand for then? And

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Speaker 1: sort of what do we know now about what you

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Speaker 1: were saying then.

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Speaker 3: So the when the pandemic started, there was sort of

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Speaker 3: an artificial consensus, so they were trying to pretend that

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Speaker 3: there was a scientific constensus for school closest.

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Speaker 2: On lockdown, so there never was.

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Speaker 3: I was one of several infectious to sea sechnologists who

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Speaker 3: did not agree with it, but it was very hard

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Speaker 3: to make our words herb because we were only one.

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Speaker 3: So in October of twenty twenty, I met with Jay Bonacharia,

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Speaker 3: who was a doctor from Stanford and doctor sat Gup

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Speaker 3: from Oxcar. It was the world's preeminent infectious to cease

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Speaker 3: at neologists. We met being Great Barrington, Massachusetts and the

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Speaker 3: three of us after the Great Brington Declaration, where we

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Speaker 3: argued for better protection of older people like less staffotation

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Speaker 3: in nursing homes, they're more testing in nursing.

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Speaker 2: Homes and so on, and.

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Speaker 3: We argue that school should be open, and that we're

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Speaker 3: still in closed down society with lockdowns because.

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Speaker 2: Everybody can get effected.

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Speaker 3: But there's more than a thousand full difference in the

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Speaker 3: risk of mortality between the older people and the younger people.

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Speaker 3: So that was against Fauci and sort of the narrative.

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Speaker 3: But because there were three of us from three reasonably

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Speaker 3: respectable universities who all worked in the infectious disease, they

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Speaker 3: couldn't dismiss us completely. So then they sort of instead

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Speaker 3: started a campaign against us, as the NIS director of

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Speaker 3: Francis Collins wrote to do take tun of us, considering

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Speaker 3: us fringe at pineologists.

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Speaker 2: But I mean a lot of people agree with us.

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Speaker 3: So we quickly obtain over one hundred thousand, hundreds of

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Speaker 3: thousands of co signers.

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Speaker 2: This almost a million by now, including.

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Speaker 3: Tens of thousands of the scientists and health professionals.

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Speaker 2: So the work clearly of big Yeah, it was clearly.

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Speaker 3: Not a consensus for these in my view of very

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Speaker 3: unscientific pandemic messure that went against the basic principles of

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Speaker 3: public health.

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Speaker 1: Let's take a quick Commercial break more with Martin Kolder

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Speaker 1: on the other side. What do we know now? I mean,

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Speaker 1: we're still finding out about the harm that lockdowns had

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Speaker 1: on you know, kids, on you know, people in general.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there was just this information from the CDC

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Speaker 1: showing that the annual average of death related excessive alcohol

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Speaker 1: use increased twenty nine percent during COVID. We still don't

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Speaker 1: know the totality of the damage. But what do we do?

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Speaker 1: What do we know today?

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Speaker 2: You're right, we don't know all of it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we know that test course has gone down

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Speaker 3: for kids in the US, differ in different states that

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Speaker 3: depending on how much the schools were closed. We know

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Speaker 3: there's increasing the mental health issues in well used alcoholism,

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Speaker 3: but also like opiate overdoses, we know there was less

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Speaker 3: cancer screening and cancer treatments, and that doesn't show up

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Speaker 3: in the mortality. Is the statics immediates with because you

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Speaker 3: don't die immediately different cancers because you don't get the

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Speaker 3: screened or treated. But that's something that will show up

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Speaker 3: in in the mortality statistics for years to come.

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Speaker 2: Somebody who maybe.

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Speaker 3: Will not die maybe two years from now that would

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Speaker 3: otherwise have lived now ten twenty years. So these things

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Speaker 3: is something that we have to live with for a

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Speaker 3: long time and it's very tragic, I think. But we

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Speaker 3: also have the verdict now in looking at overall mortality.

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Speaker 3: So you can compare access mortality from twenty twenty to

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty two to two so otherand twenty three, and

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Speaker 3: we see that the major Western countries, Among major Western countries,

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Speaker 3: the country that has the lowest access mortality is Sweden,

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Speaker 3: which is the country that famously did not lockdown. They

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Speaker 3: did the measures to protect other people and so on,

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Speaker 3: but they didn't They never closed the elementary schools, they

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Speaker 3: never closed the day cares, and they kept the businesses

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Speaker 3: and restaurants open, so and and so on. So we know,

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Speaker 3: as it's kind of so that's the combination in that

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Speaker 3: the lockdowns didn't really prevent any death at the same

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Speaker 3: time the lockdowns that it didn't prevent COVID desk at

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Speaker 3: the same time it caused death on other aspects of

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Speaker 3: public health like quadiovascular disease or or mental health or

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Speaker 3: cancer and so on.

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Speaker 1: Well, and our remember, you know, Sweden came out of

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Speaker 1: a great scrutiny for you know, the way they decided

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Speaker 1: to handle COVID, but you know, it looks like in

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Speaker 1: terms of outcomes as you laid out, you know, they

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Speaker 1: came out on top.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll see the same thing in the in the US,

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Speaker 3: for example, Florida, they locked down in the spring there,

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Speaker 3: but then they sort of took a different, more focused

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Speaker 3: protection approach and the Florida did slightly better than California

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Speaker 3: if you if you look at age just that COVID

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Speaker 3: mortality even though California locked down very harshly, so sort

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Speaker 3: of Florida to do well hasn't the lowest in the

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Speaker 3: in the state, but it's on the on the on

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Speaker 3: the positive half of states. We could also compare South Dakota,

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Speaker 3: who didn't lock down much compared to North Dakota, not

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Speaker 3: just next to it, and they.

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Speaker 2: Have a very similar COVID mortality.

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Speaker 1: Well, and we knew from really early on in the

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Speaker 1: pandemic that young people were not as impacted as elderly.

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Speaker 1: Yet you know, our public health officials never drew that distinction.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's sort of shocking because.

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Speaker 3: When the COVID reached northern Italy with outbreak there and

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Speaker 3: in Iran, which was the two places also of China

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Speaker 3: would where there was sort of outbreaks at the earliest.

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Speaker 3: I got scared for about ten twenty minutes because I

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Speaker 3: realized that, okay, this is going to reach.

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Speaker 2: The whole world. Sooner or late, they will reach every

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Speaker 2: corner of the globe. So I quickly looked.

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Speaker 3: At the data from vu Wan because we didn't have

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Speaker 3: any I don't think we had any mortality in the

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Speaker 3: US by that time. So I looked at the Vuan data,

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Speaker 3: and obviously people of all ages would have gotten affected

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Speaker 3: in Wuhan, but of the people who died, it was

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Speaker 3: heavily weighted towards all the people. So I did some

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Speaker 3: back of the envelope calculations and I concluded that the

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Speaker 3: difference in mortal at risk of mortality was more than

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Speaker 3: a thousand and four difference between the old and the young.

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Speaker 3: So then it was obvious that okay, we can. I

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Speaker 3: was so I was relieved because as a parent, I

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Speaker 3: care more about my chillers lives for my own life,

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Speaker 3: so I knew they would be fine. I was never

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Speaker 3: worried about them.

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Speaker 2: So it was August done.

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Speaker 3: We should let kids live their lives young and also

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Speaker 3: go about their business while we sort of maintaining society

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Speaker 3: was important society. While we let older people make sure

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Speaker 3: older people are protected. Instead, we protected the laptop class

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Speaker 3: who could work from home even if we are twenty

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Speaker 3: five years old and miniscule risk. Or we had sixty

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Speaker 3: five year old cab drivers out there driving cabs, and

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Speaker 3: that's one of the professions where they are most at

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Speaker 3: hirisks to be exposed. So the lockdowns was the biggest

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Speaker 3: assault on the working class and the middle class here

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Speaker 3: in the US since the segregation and the Vietnam War.

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Speaker 1: Well, and and to a point that you made earlier,

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Speaker 1: I mean, there is a real deep and twisted irony.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we were praising all these nurses and

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Speaker 1: healthcare workers who worked during the height of the pandemic

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Speaker 1: and got sick with COVID as a result, and then

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Speaker 1: we fired them if they decided not to get the vaccine,

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Speaker 1: when when they already had built up immunity, which, as

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Speaker 1: you pointed out, has been a thing since the beginning

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Speaker 1: of time.

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Speaker 3: It's it's astonishing and tragic, I think, and I think

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Speaker 3: all those nurses should be higher and back, they should

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Speaker 3: be off with their jobs back, so as well as

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Speaker 3: everybody else was fired.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I.

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Speaker 1: Think in you know, having had a lot of these

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Speaker 1: conversations with like truth tellers and people like you and

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Speaker 1: doctor Badicharia and doctor Atlas, who I've all had, you know,

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Speaker 1: on on my show, it seems like COVID in its entirety,

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Speaker 1: you know, and obviously was never about the truth. It

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Speaker 1: was never about the facts, it was never about the evidence.

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Speaker 1: It was more about people getting in line and then

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Speaker 1: punishing any dissenters. And that really was across the all fields. Right.

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Speaker 1: If you're in the media, you spoke out, they try

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Speaker 1: to punish you. If you're in the scientific community as

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Speaker 1: you are, they try to punish you. And it seems

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Speaker 1: like it was more about just shut up and cement.

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Speaker 3: It was a very authoritarian mindset, yes, And to me

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Speaker 3: that's sort of shocking. I thought that freewa speech was

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Speaker 3: sort of a pillar that everybody agreed on, and I

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Speaker 3: guess that's no longer the case, which is tragic. And

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Speaker 3: I think if we don't get back to the mindset

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Speaker 3: of fido or speech, I think that's the end of

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Speaker 3: Western civilization. I know, and I mean I know scientists

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Speaker 3: who were fired, I know physicians, nurses was fired.

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Speaker 2: I know journalist who was fired so on.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, it hit a lot of people, So I'm

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Speaker 3: not I'm not surprised that a lot of people just

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Speaker 3: to say it.

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Speaker 2: Don't going to shot my mouth. I'm not going to

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Speaker 2: risk my.

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Speaker 3: Income and my family for this, So I fully understand

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Speaker 3: that people would not speak out.

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Speaker 1: No, I like you in the sense of I can

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Speaker 1: see why people did not, but you know, like you,

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Speaker 1: I just I can't be one of those people. I'd

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Speaker 1: rather you know, if someone tells me you can't press

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Speaker 1: the red button, but pressing the red button is what

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Speaker 1: needs to be done, or is the right thing to do,

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna do it, and I guess take the

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Speaker 1: consequences as they come.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Lisa.

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Speaker 3: I'm glad that you have that attitude, and I think

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Speaker 3: that's important to have people like you so well, You're.

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Speaker 1: You're much more brave than me because this is my job.

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Speaker 1: You know, Like, I think you were a total coward

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Speaker 1: if you work in the media and you're unwilling to

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Speaker 1: be honest. But like you risked your career at Harvard

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Speaker 1: to speak out. I mean you didn't. You didn't have to,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I think what you guys did

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Speaker 1: is what's brave.

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Speaker 3: I have to disagree with that. I'm a scientist. If

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Speaker 3: I was a chemist, I could keep quiet, But I'm

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Speaker 3: I'm an affection to SASE scientists, so it's my job

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Speaker 3: to speak up. I have no other choice in my view,

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Speaker 3: you know, That's all.

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Speaker 1: I read the column that you wrote. You had mentioned,

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Speaker 1: I know you're the CDC. You're briefly on the COVID

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Speaker 1: vaccine the Safety Technical work Group. It didn't last long

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Speaker 1: because again, you know, they don't they don't like people

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Speaker 1: who tell the truth or raised questions these days. But

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Speaker 1: you had mentioned that something that didn't sit right you

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Speaker 1: with you was that the randomized control trials for the

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Speaker 1: COVID vaccines were not properly designed. What do you mean

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Speaker 1: by that and how does that impact I guess the

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Speaker 1: safety of a vaccine or what we know about a

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Speaker 1: vaccine safety.

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Speaker 3: So whenever drag or vaccine is approved by FDA, they

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Speaker 3: have to do this. You need to do randomized trials

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Speaker 3: to show that it works. And so the good thing

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Speaker 3: with the COVID trials was that was randomized. That's a

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Speaker 3: good thing. The bad thing was that the outcome they

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Speaker 3: looked at was symptomatic disease. Now at all of this

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Speaker 3: on artless. But I don't really care if you're homesick

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Speaker 3: for a few days because I have to be in

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Speaker 3: bed for two days. What I care about is if

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Speaker 3: you die. I don't want you to die. I don't

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Speaker 3: want you to a little hospitalize either, So but that's

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Speaker 3: what matters. But these trials, the randomized trials that was

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Speaker 3: designed by fire Cera Moderna, they evaluated symptomatic COVID disease.

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Speaker 3: They didn't evaluate mortality or they recorded it. But they

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Speaker 3: recruited mostly young and middle aged adults, so they were

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Speaker 3: going to survive COVID no matter what the vast majority,

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Speaker 3: whether they were on the vaccine or the placebo. So

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Speaker 3: therefore it's not very informative in terms of seeing if

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Speaker 3: it prevents mortality or not. It's the informative in terms

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Speaker 3: of symptomatic disease, but that's only relevant or very little importance.

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Speaker 2: So they designed it wrongly.

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Speaker 3: And then and then they stop the trials too soon also,

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Speaker 3: so they only monitor this for a few months, and

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Speaker 3: we usually had trials that can go on for years

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Speaker 3: and years for cancer drag or something like that. So

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Speaker 3: that's also inappro inappropriate because that means we don't know.

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Speaker 3: We don't have strong randomized evidence whether for the long

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Speaker 3: time effect, both of efficacy and address reactions. So they

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Speaker 3: should have done designed these differently. And then they did correctly,

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Speaker 3: I think, decide not to recruit people who had already

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Speaker 3: had COVID and too when they had they had a few,

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Speaker 3: but they sort of removed that from the analysis, and

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Speaker 3: I think that was correct because we don't need these

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Speaker 3: vaccines for those. But then what was wrong was even

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Speaker 3: though it was tested on people without who hadn't had COVID,

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Speaker 3: it was also man that for people who had already

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Speaker 3: had COVID. But you don't think it would would would work, Uh,

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Speaker 3: we don't need So they were also using those trials

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Speaker 3: to do extrapolation that we didn't know. They also didn't

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Speaker 3: look at transmission. They could have done that if they

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Speaker 3: wanted to, but they didn't. But CDC was anyhow arguing

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Speaker 3: that this will stop transmission, which of course it didn't.

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Speaker 3: So the trials were designed were flawed. That doesn't mean

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Speaker 3: that the vaccine didn't save some people's life. I think

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Speaker 3: the vaccine did say in twenty twenty one, the lives

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Speaker 3: of older people when it comes to yago people, I

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Speaker 3: think is the big question mark, how what the benefit

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Speaker 3: this creature was?

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Speaker 1: Quick break stay with us? You Also, the CDC sort

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Speaker 1: of continuously changed the definition of what it means to

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Speaker 1: be vaccinated, changed the definition of it, you know. I

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Speaker 1: mean they kind of like twisted these things to meet

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Speaker 1: the criteria of what they knew the vaccine was doing.

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Speaker 1: Should we be worried about future vaccines? Has the process

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Speaker 1: been like taged and diminished in the kind of vaccine,

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Speaker 1: like the the what vaccines need to go through to

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Speaker 1: be put out to market? It just seems like the

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Speaker 1: rush nature in this sort of the failures and making

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Speaker 1: sure these were as safe and effective as they could be,

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Speaker 1: sort of the twisting of definitions like should we be

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Speaker 1: concerned about future vaccines? That sort of the approval process

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Speaker 1: has now been diminished.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think.

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Speaker 3: I understand why people don't trust vaccines anymore because the

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Speaker 3: way that the COVID vaccine was handled was very poorly.

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Speaker 3: So I understand that then people start questioning.

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Speaker 2: You the vaccines.

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Speaker 3: Like tribate vaccines, but I mean sound vaccines are very important,

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Speaker 3: like the musle vaccines are very important, and the poorio vaccines.

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Speaker 2: But I don't know what the future.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if we will go back to doing

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Speaker 3: it in a more thorough way that we used to

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Speaker 3: do it, or if this is the new the new

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Speaker 3: way of doing things, And if this is a new

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Speaker 3: way of doing things, then nowahouldn't test that? And I

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00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 3: think think CDC has an enormous trust problem, and I

440
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 3: realized it themselves.

441
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 2: Now I don't know.

442
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 3: I don't think that quite realizes what is due to

443
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 3: but we have a trust problem. My thinking, my principle

444
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 3: is basic that if you have a scientist who refuses

445
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 3: to debate other scientists of of who have a different perspective,

446
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 3: you simply trust them.

447
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 2: We should always.

448
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,680
Speaker 3: Trust scientists who are willing to put themselves out there

449
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:33,640
Speaker 3: and discuss and debate their views with other scientists who

450
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 3: think differently.

451
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,959
Speaker 1: Well, I think what's scary and where we are now

452
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 1: which is not a good place to be in it

453
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,679
Speaker 1: And it's because of her, the failure of our public

454
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 1: health officials and also mind you you know higher education

455
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:50,400
Speaker 1: like have Harvard firing people like you. Is that they've

456
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 1: lost all this trust and lost all this faith over

457
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 1: a virus. It even the CDC acknowledges now is essentially

458
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 1: the flu right you know, even you had mentioned polio. Okay,

459
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:02,880
Speaker 1: so adults for polios at fifteen to thirty percent fatality rate,

460
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 1: that's a real fatality rate, right. So what happens if

461
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 1: we have a virus in the future with a real,

462
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 1: real fatality rate and you have an entire population that

463
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 1: doesn't trust your public health officials now has a fear

464
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 1: of vaccines, has a fear of what we're told. So

465
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: it's like, you know what happens, then.

466
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 3: Well that's a problem. Supposed that comes a very serious pandemic.

467
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 3: I suppose we come up with the vaccine that's perfect,

468
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 3: no flaws. There are people who are not going to

469
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 3: take the vaccine because they don't trust CDC or FJA anymore.

470
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 1: I mean, if you tell me to get it, I'll

471
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 1: get it. But if the faucies of the world tell me,

472
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 1: I'll tell them to pound stand. You know, I what

473
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: if a thing I want to get you on because

474
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 1: I thought this was interesting and totally a side note

475
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 1: you had written in the column that you wrote in

476
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,919
Speaker 1: the column that you had about that you worked for

477
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 1: human rights organization in Guatemala in nineteen eighty and you

478
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 1: had two colleagues that were stabbed and a hand grenade

479
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 1: that was thrown in the house where you all lived

480
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,360
Speaker 1: and worked. Tell us about that story.

481
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, So after it was a student, I worked as

482
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 3: the human rights observing Guatemala in nineteen eighty nine, and

483
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 3: this was during the military dictatorship there, so people who

484
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 3: were opposing and was trying There was no freedom of speech,

485
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,400
Speaker 3: for example, so people who were speaking up, they were

486
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 3: sometimes killed. Sometimes that just disappeared, was taken from the

487
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 3: street and nobody knew what happened to them.

488
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 2: So there were several very brave Guatemalas.

489
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 3: There was the mothers of the disappears, for example, whose

490
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 3: sons and daughters had been disappeared and who were sort

491
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 3: of demonstrating and trying to find out what happened to

492
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 3: their children. There were campusenos who was working against enforced

493
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 3: military conscriptions. There were trade unionists, student groups, women's groups

494
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 3: and so on who were oppressed because they didn't have

495
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 3: the feedom of speech to speak cup. So we were

496
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 3: there to accompany them as the international because the military

497
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,679
Speaker 3: had were concerned about the international reputations. So I was

498
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 3: walking around with these people. It's very brave Guatemalans to

499
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 3: help protect them from something happening to them, and we

500
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 3: were a nuisance to the military dictators. So at one

501
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 3: point they tried to scare us away from the country.

502
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 3: So two of my college were stabbed as they were

503
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 3: working on the street, and at one point they threw

504
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 3: hangunade into the house, our house where sort of everybody

505
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:37,199
Speaker 3: lived and worked. So at that time, I guess I

506
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 3: sort of risked my life to support the freedom of

507
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 3: speech and democracy and the lives of people. So it

508
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 3: was an easy decision to do the same other wriddle

509
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 3: pandemic because while I was landed and there were takedowns

510
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 3: from highest sources of them as director against me, I

511
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 3: never I never risked my life to do during this pandemic.

512
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 1: So I guess what do you think the toughest part

513
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: about that, about just going through COVID has has been

514
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: for you? You know, I assume it's it's got to

515
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 1: be really disheartening to have spent you know, your entire

516
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 1: career really trying to help the public, inform the public,

517
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:27,199
Speaker 1: keep the public safe, and then to be slandered in

518
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: the manner in which you've been, that's got to be

519
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: that's got to be really frustrating.

520
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 3: I think the hardest part is so in the past

521
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 3: when I meet new people and we talked and so

522
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 3: what do you do? And I say, I'm a scientist.

523
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 3: And I was always so proud to say, oh, I'm

524
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 3: a scientist, and that was sort of my self identity

525
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 3: and private entity. And now people ask I can no

526
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 3: longer say that, I'm not long proud to say that

527
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 3: I'm a scientist because I think science has failed, the

528
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 3: scientists community has failed during this pandemic.

529
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 2: So and it's.

530
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:06,719
Speaker 3: Disheartening that that the scientific community was not able to

531
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 3: to to to sort of stand up and do the

532
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 3: right thing during this pandemic. But uh basically did while

533
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 3: they were told by the by the leadership in that

534
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 3: of Foucy and others.

535
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 2: And that's true.

536
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 3: That's that's that's that's sad that we cannot be proud

537
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 3: to be of being scientists anymore.

538
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: Where can people stay on top of your work? Where

539
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: is the best place for them to find you?

540
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 3: So together with well they can reach They can see

541
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 3: me on Twitter or LinkedIn other social media like cab

542
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 3: or ghats through social but also with the able to

543
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 3: try and Scott Atlas, we we have the sort of

544
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 3: the Academy for Science and Freedom together with the Hillsdale College,

545
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 3: which is an attempt to sort of restore the integrity

546
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 3: of the scientific community. And that's maybe a long.

547
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: Well.

548
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 3: I never doubted that we will eventually prove the right

549
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 3: about the pandemic when it comes to academia. I think

550
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 3: it's the fifty fifty child that we're able to sort

551
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 3: of steer the right ship in the right direction, versus

552
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 3: is sort of going further downhill. So we'll see how

553
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 3: that works, but at least you have to try it.

554
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 3: So I've Kennedy for Science and Freedom.

555
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: Martin Colder, I just want to thank you. I've got

556
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: to know a lot of you guys throughout COVID, and

557
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: I just it really is brave what you guys have done.

558
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: I don't think people really fully understand just what you

559
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: guys have been put through, the thing, you know, just

560
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: even attacks for your family, just all of it. And

561
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: you really are a brave man, a good man, And

562
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: I just want to thank you for the bottom of

563
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: my heart for being so brave and really just fighting

564
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 1: for the truth so fearlessly.

565
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 3: And thank you Lisa, because to be honest, I haven't.

566
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 3: I don't have a very good esteemed to most journalists anymore,

567
00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 3: but you are shining light in the dark a professional

568
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 3: there right now.

569
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: Thank you, sir. That means the world to me. I

570
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: really appreciate you making the time. I'm looking forward to

571
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: saying all the things that you guys accomplish at Hillsdale

572
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,719
Speaker 1: and just everything moving forward, and just really appreciate you.

573
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:14,239
Speaker 2: Thank you, thanks for having me on.

574
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: That was doctor Martin Kolder. Just really appreciate him making

575
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 1: the time. He's a good man, he's a brave man.

576
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 1: I want to thank you guys at home for listening.

577
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: I also want to think John Cassio and my producer

578
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: for putting the show together. Until next time,