Speaker 1: Before we start, I want to let you know that
Speaker 1: in this episode we discussed the topic of sexual abuse. Listener,
Speaker 1: discretion is advised. I really wanted that life that Jesus
Speaker 1: had of really living poverty, chastity, obedience, service. You val
Speaker 1: for lot vows of poverty, chest in your obedience, obedience,
Speaker 1: and the missionaries of charity have have a fourth foul,
Speaker 1: wholehearted and free service to the poorest of the poor.
Speaker 1: Mother Teresa was very concerned about the vow of chastity,
Speaker 1: almost to the point of paranoia. You're never supposed to
Speaker 1: get too close to one sister. You were married to
Speaker 1: the crucified Christ. There was so much fear around anything
Speaker 1: connected with human connection. How Mistress of Earth, hal heavenly Queen,
Speaker 1: how virgin of virgins or chasten Serene. You know, there
Speaker 1: are some very decent sisters here, and you are the best.
Speaker 1: There were regulations against what was termed particular friendship, and
Speaker 1: I didn't really catch the subtext at the time. She says,
Speaker 1: you want to get to know me better, and she's
Speaker 1: asking about my family. You're going to give up intimate
Speaker 1: relationships by a vow of chastity, Yesterdy, you must not
Speaker 1: have any particular friendships Rococo Punch and I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: This is the Turning I America Lands, Part five, particular friendship.
Speaker 1: M hm, So I've just gotten into camp and I'm
Speaker 1: heading to I'm not really sure where, because I've spoken
Speaker 1: to a couple of the sisters on the phone, and
Speaker 1: the ridiculously vague about where I could learn. The Chevy
Speaker 1: such day as a reporter in western India. We hired
Speaker 1: her to find a woman who used to be a
Speaker 1: missionary of charity and is still a sister, but with
Speaker 1: a different organization. This woman we're trying to find. I
Speaker 1: called the house where she lives several times before I
Speaker 1: got her on the phone, but once I started to
Speaker 1: explain why I was calling, she quickly ended the conversation.
Speaker 1: Now the other sisters in her group don't want to
Speaker 1: tell us anything, even where they're located. They won't tell
Speaker 1: me where I can reach out. They won't tell me
Speaker 1: where I can find her open, they won't give me
Speaker 1: the address of their residents. And whether the order works
Speaker 1: out of the woman Chabby is trying to find is Naobe.
Speaker 1: The Bold Nun transferred to Mary Johnson's convent in Rome.
Speaker 1: The Nun who told Mary I love you. I've got
Speaker 1: two envelopes with me. There are two versions of the letter.
Speaker 1: She has two drafts of a letter for Niobe in
Speaker 1: case Chabby can't actually talk to her. One of them
Speaker 1: is intentionally vague if we have to hand it to
Speaker 1: someone other than Niobe who might read it. The second
Speaker 1: letter is more explicit in the allegations, and that what
Speaker 1: in an envelope that's a strictly confidential This woman we're
Speaker 1: trying to reach Niobe. She first entered Mary Johnson's life.
Speaker 1: She walked in with his presence that was so unlike
Speaker 1: what most of the missionaries of charity had, and so
Speaker 1: she caught my attention. Mary was twenty nine years old,
Speaker 1: Naobie was thirty nine. Naobe's not her real name, by
Speaker 1: the way. At this point Mary had been with the
Speaker 1: MCS for a decade, and for all those years, she'd
Speaker 1: been doing everything she could descend to her life on love.
Speaker 1: Love was the point. It's why she joined the m
Speaker 1: CS in the first place. It's what she believed people
Speaker 1: needed most. And I think maybe because I had felt
Speaker 1: excluded in many of the different places I was and
Speaker 1: while my family was a very loving family, when I
Speaker 1: was growing up, But there wasn't a lot of like
Speaker 1: I love you. There was doing things together, there was
Speaker 1: doing things for each other. I had that kind of
Speaker 1: like whole, a little bit like many many people do.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, we all longed to be loved,
Speaker 1: to be appreciated, to be seen um and not just
Speaker 1: for the things that we can do, but for who
Speaker 1: we are. Then one day, while Mary hung her close
Speaker 1: to dry now you'll be whispered in her ear, Sister, Donata,
Speaker 1: I love you. The clothespin fell for Mary's hand. Does
Speaker 1: she mean like I love you the way I'm supposed
Speaker 1: to love all the sisters Jesus said, love one another
Speaker 1: as I have loved you. No, I don't think that's
Speaker 1: what she means. She's looking at me with this big
Speaker 1: smile in her eyes. I am she's waiting for an answer.
Speaker 1: She's what she do I And she picks up the
Speaker 1: clothespin that I dropped, and her arm brushes my arm,
Speaker 1: and I feel like this electric shock kind of thing
Speaker 1: going through me. And she goes away, And I'm looking
Speaker 1: all day long at the big blue sky and listening
Speaker 1: to the sounds of the birds, and everything feels like
Speaker 1: new so you were happy. I was happy. I was confused.
Speaker 1: I was happy. I was But you know, what do
Speaker 1: you do the first time somebody says I love you
Speaker 1: in a way that sounds romantic and meaningful and personal. Um,
Speaker 1: I felt good. One afternoon, the sisters were drinking tea
Speaker 1: and I will Be slightly leaned over and told a
Speaker 1: joke in Mary's ear. When they all stood up to pray,
Speaker 1: the Superior gave Mary a weird look. Now the Superior
Speaker 1: wasn't just any mc. Her name was Sister Joseph Michael.
Speaker 1: She was highly ranked in the order and pretty tight
Speaker 1: with Mother Teresa. In fact, Mother Teresa reportedly saw Sister
Speaker 1: Joseph Michael as a possible replacement for her one day. Now,
Speaker 1: Mary started to worry. Had the Superior seen something between
Speaker 1: her and Iobe. Later that afternoon, Sister Joseph Michael called
Speaker 1: Mary to her office. She told her to close the
Speaker 1: do or started pacing. Finally, Sister Joseph Michael spoke slowly
Speaker 1: and tentatively. She said she had a special job for Mary.
Speaker 1: Revised the constitutions, the mission and guidelines of the Missionaries
Speaker 1: of Charity, Mother Teresa's path to Holiness, and I was
Speaker 1: so totally floored, because we are always told that the
Speaker 1: constitutions are the voice of God. Mother Teresa had written
Speaker 1: the constitutions. The story goes on her knees by candle light,
Speaker 1: after all the other sisters had gone to sleep. Mary's
Speaker 1: job was to update the constitutions to reflect current canon law.
Speaker 1: Cannon law is basically the Catholic Church's internal legal system.
Speaker 1: When a new code of Cannon law is issued, Catholic
Speaker 1: orders review and update their own sets of guidelines. Mary
Speaker 1: was updating the MC guidelines after Pope John Paul the
Speaker 1: Second made revisions in the nineteen eighties. These Cannon law
Speaker 1: updates don't happen very often. Pope Francis just released new
Speaker 1: Cannon law revision and those were the first in nearly
Speaker 1: four decades. Every day Mary wheeled a portable typewriter out
Speaker 1: into the garden and worked her way through the constitutions.
Speaker 1: A new word here, a new paragraph there. She couldn't
Speaker 1: make big changes, but editing changed her. Maybe this rule
Speaker 1: book was as human as it was divine. If Mary
Speaker 1: could change the wording of the rules, maybe she could
Speaker 1: tweak them in her own life too. This was the
Speaker 1: backdrop of Mary's relationship with Niobe. While Mary typed, Niobie
Speaker 1: would peek her head into the garden and say, have
Speaker 1: a good day. Sometimes she winked. And when I was
Speaker 1: with Naobe, I finally felt myself as lovable and loved.
Speaker 1: This kind of thing I was trying to do for
Speaker 1: everybody else all the time, to make them feel seen.
Speaker 1: This was the center of what I was supposed to
Speaker 1: be doing, and for the first time I was feeling
Speaker 1: it for myself. In the weeks followed, Mary talked to
Speaker 1: God about her predicament. She also thanked God because Niobe
Speaker 1: felt like a gift. How can this not be from God?
Speaker 1: If it's making me feel how God wants us to feel.
Speaker 1: God wants us to feel loved, How could that not
Speaker 1: be from God. As time passed, Niobe got older, she
Speaker 1: dropped the sister and just started calling Mary Donata. She's
Speaker 1: not saying sister, or not to the way we were
Speaker 1: always supposed to do. So just dropping that sister was
Speaker 1: so intimate. She'd rushed past Mary in the hall, touch
Speaker 1: her foot under the table. This made Mary nervous, really nervous.
Speaker 1: There was no privacy in the convent. Everyone knew everyone's business,
Speaker 1: but Niobe didn't stop, and Mary didn't stop her. We
Speaker 1: would bow down and touch our heads to the floor
Speaker 1: of the chapel. It was a tradition that was adopted
Speaker 1: from India, and it was really bad because sometimes she
Speaker 1: would get right behind me and as she would grab
Speaker 1: hold of my feet when she'd bow down and again,
Speaker 1: it felt kind of delicious, and at the same time,
Speaker 1: if anybody saw that that, that would be a horrible
Speaker 1: It could be awful because I had been having this
Speaker 1: crisis of conscience because even though her love felt so
Speaker 1: good and it felt so much like God, and part
Speaker 1: of me believed it was a gift from God, another
Speaker 1: part of me knew it was wrong and that I
Speaker 1: shouldn't be having any sort of special relationship with her sister.
Speaker 1: What we were sharing was dangerous and against my vows.
Speaker 1: And I had actually determined that I was going to
Speaker 1: tell her that, but she didn't have the chance. Sister
Speaker 1: Naobe came with her own news. Naobe had been instructed
Speaker 1: not to tell anyone, but she was being transferred that
Speaker 1: same day. She had a new assignment in Napoli. I
Speaker 1: was so relieved because I had been It kind of
Speaker 1: like solved my problem, even though I knew I was
Speaker 1: going to miss her, and all of these different things
Speaker 1: whirling through my head at once. And she comes close
Speaker 1: to me and she says, never forget our secret, never
Speaker 1: forget that I love you, And I told her I
Speaker 1: love you too, the last words I said to her
Speaker 1: before she left. Mary finished updating the constitutions, but now
Speaker 1: she creeped something. Those rules didn't allow something small, even
Speaker 1: just a hand on her arm, you know, even like
Speaker 1: the sign of peace at mass, where people would normally
Speaker 1: shake hands, we do that kind of namastay sort of
Speaker 1: thing where you join your hands in front of your
Speaker 1: chest and bow to each other. So really nothing, nothing
Speaker 1: as far as touch goes. One day, a van from
Speaker 1: Napoli showed up that the convent with supplies, and when
Speaker 1: Mary went to greet it, Naobe was there and packing
Speaker 1: the boxes. Mary was thrilled. She asked Naobe to come
Speaker 1: inside with her and I said, you know, I've been
Speaker 1: thinking about something and I want to ask you something.
Speaker 1: And she says, sure, ask so well, you hold me,
Speaker 1: she says, hold you. I said, yeah, just just put
Speaker 1: your arms around me for a minute. And she kind
Speaker 1: of looks at the windows and I maneuver us into
Speaker 1: a place where nobody will see us and close a
Speaker 1: couple of blinds. And then she puts her arms around me,
Speaker 1: and it feels so good. And she leans over and
Speaker 1: she kisses the top of my sorry covered head. I
Speaker 1: could hear her heart beating, I could feel her arms
Speaker 1: around me. I just like like everything inside me is melting.
Speaker 1: She held me just a second more and then she
Speaker 1: went away. Niobe got back in the van and left.
Speaker 1: It would be three years before Mary saw her again. So,
Speaker 1: like most of you, I used to be a nun.
Speaker 1: Uh very relatable. That's very relatable. Instand up comedy, to
Speaker 1: get up and starts to talk about how you used
Speaker 1: to be a nun and I used to been on
Speaker 1: with the outfit and everything. Kelly Dunham followed her calling
Speaker 1: all the way from the missionaries of charity to the stage.
Speaker 1: So the first question is um oh like the sound
Speaker 1: of music. Uh No, there were less children and matching
Speaker 1: outfits and less Nazis in my story. Kelly lives in Brooklyn.
Speaker 1: She lasted about two years as a sister with the MCS.
Speaker 1: To you her words, she flunked out. She had the
Speaker 1: hardest time with the vow of chastity. Not the sex
Speaker 1: part that wasn't it. It was the way the MCS
Speaker 1: took the vow so far, avoiding all friendship. Initially, the
Speaker 1: Order sounded like a fantasy women working together towards a
Speaker 1: common goal of caring for others. Instead, Kelly says she
Speaker 1: would be asked to leave her humanity behind, but it
Speaker 1: definitely makes for good material. One time, we got up
Speaker 1: in the morning and Sister Malagro told us that if
Speaker 1: we really loved Jesus, we would mortify ourselves by going
Speaker 1: to the bathroom only once a day. Now, I thought
Speaker 1: she was kidding, so I laughed and said, okay, just
Speaker 1: call me Sister Mary bladder infection. She didn't think that
Speaker 1: was funny. Kelly joined the Order for idealistic reasons, but
Speaker 1: when she looks back, she knows she was a little
Speaker 1: different from the stereotypical MC. First off, she didn't grow
Speaker 1: up Catholic. She was raised as an evangelical Christian. I'm also,
Speaker 1: you know, like a very queer person. Even though I
Speaker 1: did not know it then, I just knew I didn't
Speaker 1: fit in very well. She first got involved with the
Speaker 1: Missionaries of Charity as a volunteer in Haiti. Most aid
Speaker 1: organizations and Haiti frustrated her. They didn't seem to give
Speaker 1: Haitian people a voice. But as she saw the MCS
Speaker 1: listened to what locals had to say. She loved how
Speaker 1: the sisters looked in their sories, how they worked so hard,
Speaker 1: how strong they were. By that spring, I was in
Speaker 1: love not with like one sister, but like with all
Speaker 1: of them. Before she could join the MCS, she had
Speaker 1: to convert to Catholicism. As it turns out, they kind
Speaker 1: of insist on that thing. While Kelly was becoming a Catholic,
Speaker 1: she volunteered with the Sisters in Miami, and eventually she
Speaker 1: got word the MCS had accepted her. She would start
Speaker 1: her training in New York. So the Sisters in Miami
Speaker 1: had her over for Tea to say goodbye, and they
Speaker 1: made me this card. You know. I opened it up
Speaker 1: and was like, welcome to your beautiful vocation. And it
Speaker 1: said something like you know, your love of Christ must
Speaker 1: destroy you completely. And then I had like a little
Speaker 1: pictures a little like red drops off the words and
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, it's the blood of Jesus. I'm like, wow,
Speaker 1: this is so gruesome. Your love of Christ must destroy
Speaker 1: you completely. One of the professed sisters pulled Kelly aside.
Speaker 1: She said, if at some point you feel like they're
Speaker 1: really breaking your head, then you just leave, just run
Speaker 1: and just go. There's one story from the convent that
Speaker 1: really sticks out to Kelly. It's when her mistress told
Speaker 1: over and over again as this inspirational tale. A superior
Speaker 1: walks into a chapel of praying sisters and instead of
Speaker 1: saying anything, she writes a message on a chalkboard, please
Speaker 1: pray for the father of Sister Mary whoever he's very ill.
Speaker 1: And then that's how she found out that her father
Speaker 1: was sick. And then fifteen minutes later the superior came
Speaker 1: in um wipe that off the black board and wrote,
Speaker 1: please pray for the father of sister whoever r I P.
Speaker 1: So that's how she found out how her father died,
Speaker 1: and the superior didn't say anything else the end. That's
Speaker 1: the story that just seems needlessly cruel. And she said
Speaker 1: that sister has really trusted Jesus and really trusted her superior.
Speaker 1: That much like those are the stories you hear when
Speaker 1: somebody wants to like tell you an inspirational story. You know,
Speaker 1: that's whacko for inspirational story. In another story from her mistress,
Speaker 1: as sister finds out her entire family was killed in
Speaker 1: the Rwandan Civil War, after a few tears, she never
Speaker 1: mentions it again, and that has held out this kind
Speaker 1: of the gold standard, that she trusted Jesus so much
Speaker 1: that she never had an emotional expression about it after that.
Speaker 1: But I think the mission is a charity, like your feelings.
Speaker 1: We're just supposed to be irrelevant and we're not giving
Speaker 1: you information. There were just things that you pray to
Speaker 1: get rid of them. But people have feelings and the
Speaker 1: things actually are information, and it's just so not compatible
Speaker 1: with the way humans are. I'm really good with kids.
Speaker 1: It's one of my strengths. This is Mary Anderson, not
Speaker 1: to be confused with Mary Johnson. There are a lot
Speaker 1: of Mary's in this story, Like the other Mary, this
Speaker 1: one worked with kids as part of her service work.
Speaker 1: And I love them, and I connected with them, and
Speaker 1: I would play with them. And she skipped with them,
Speaker 1: and I was told that that was wrong. I wasn't
Speaker 1: conducting myself as a proper nun. And surely Mary the
Speaker 1: Mother of God never skipped. And I remember thinking that's rubbish,
Speaker 1: like skipping is joyful, and why should I be, you know,
Speaker 1: having to do penance like kidding ourselves or kneeling on
Speaker 1: hard floors or you know, because I was skipping, and
Speaker 1: I was just so torn up by those things, and
Speaker 1: yet to be constantly told that, well, you have to
Speaker 1: not trust what you think and shield you have to
Speaker 1: think the way we do, and what you think is
Speaker 1: wrong and you're you know, and and so I was
Speaker 1: getting the message over and over you cannot trust what
Speaker 1: you think. Your thoughts are not very good because they're
Speaker 1: not right, you know. Not every former MC sister sees
Speaker 1: detachment as a bad thing. Joan Worcester says, it's incredibly valuable.
Speaker 1: I think I got a great relationship with God through
Speaker 1: all of this. Even though there was some suffering involved,
Speaker 1: I feel like it was the best experience of my life.
Speaker 1: The main thing was not having anything. That was tremendous
Speaker 1: for me because I have no attachment to anything at
Speaker 1: this point in my life. It taught me so much
Speaker 1: for detachment, even from objects, from objects, from people. I
Speaker 1: always say this to people, and I think it's hard
Speaker 1: for people to understand this. Or I say, I love people.
Speaker 1: I love my husband, I love my children, but I'm
Speaker 1: not attached. My life journey is my attachment to God totally.
Speaker 1: So while I appreciate and love, I'm just not attached,
Speaker 1: if that makes sense, I think. So that's such an
Speaker 1: interesting concept for me, and I think I'm probably pretty attached,
Speaker 1: but I can love. The thing about love for me
Speaker 1: is I can love so much more because I'm not attached.
Speaker 1: If I have my husband for as long as I
Speaker 1: have him, if he were to die, my life would
Speaker 1: not change. It would change in what I would have
Speaker 1: to deal with, you know, depression or sadness, but it
Speaker 1: wouldn't change my love for him, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: So so that way, it's kind of like a for me,
Speaker 1: it's a release of life, but I get to live
Speaker 1: the life. It sounds peaceful it is. But any former
Speaker 1: sisters we spoke to think this forced detachment is crippling.
Speaker 1: They say it's a contradiction to be asked to love
Speaker 1: and help others and also remain emotionally distant. They struggled
Speaker 1: with this rule against friendship, or what's called particular friendship,
Speaker 1: which is like kind of the euphemism for like non
Speaker 1: non action, But even when people had kind of platonic friendships,
Speaker 1: they'd often send people away because they just didn't want
Speaker 1: people to be connected to each other. Kelly says, mcs
Speaker 1: weren't just worried about particular friendships. Appearance and demeanor were
Speaker 1: also scrutinized. They have a lot of talk about like
Speaker 1: how our lady was very feminine, you know, they say, like, oh,
Speaker 1: our lady, she was a real lady, you know whatever.
Speaker 1: As sisters in Kelly's training class progressed to the next level,
Speaker 1: Kelly says she was held back. The specific problem that
Speaker 1: they said that I had was that I had too
Speaker 1: much self esteem and insufficient facility. Even when I managed
Speaker 1: to say the right things, they would say that my
Speaker 1: body language was like I walked like my shoulders were angry,
Speaker 1: is how they said it, which, you know, I think
Speaker 1: that could mean a lot of things too, What do
Speaker 1: you mean by that? Like I remember one time she
Speaker 1: lent me her prayer book and it had a little
Speaker 1: list of the things she was praying about, and one
Speaker 1: of them was me, And she said that I was scary,
Speaker 1: and I was like, nobody in my life has ever
Speaker 1: called me scary, But I think that there was something
Speaker 1: about me that was maybe threatening to her. Maybe it
Speaker 1: was about sexuality, I don't know. All Kelly knew for
Speaker 1: sure was that she was stressed, so stressed that she
Speaker 1: says she got her period for four months straight, which
Speaker 1: I think was my body's way of being like get out,
Speaker 1: get out, you know. And we used like non disposable,
Speaker 1: um menstreal stuff, right like really, they just handed us diapers,
Speaker 1: you know, like the cloth diapers that we folded up
Speaker 1: and then we had to wash them by hand. And
Speaker 1: so one day we were cleaning the women's shelter in
Speaker 1: Harlem and there was a tampon sitting on top of
Speaker 1: one of the dressers and I was like, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: borrow that, and then I put it in my pocket
Speaker 1: and then I was walking away. I was like, I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna borrow it. I'm not giving it back. And
Speaker 1: that was kind of the moment where I was like,
Speaker 1: you know, this is not making me a better person,
Speaker 1: Like I don't know who who I am. Maybe you know,
Speaker 1: but I know who I don't want to be, and
Speaker 1: that's a person who steals a tampon from a homeless woman.
Speaker 1: And I don't think i've ever been as stressed as
Speaker 1: I was in that situation. She had to walk away.
Speaker 1: Kelly turned in her Sorry, it's sad because I did
Speaker 1: see sisters, even sisters who seem like they were pretty happy.
Speaker 1: And with the life just being destroyed by this constant
Speaker 1: need of mistresses and superiors to destroy the bonds between people,
Speaker 1: the advance of human liberty can only strengthen the cause
Speaker 1: of world peace. There is one sign the Soviets can
Speaker 1: make that would be unmistakable. In the late nineteen eighties,
Speaker 1: big changes were underway. The world was spinning, the Soviet
Speaker 1: Union was reforming. President Ronald Reagan gave a speech in
Speaker 1: front of the Berlin Wall. Mr Grabschof teared down this wall. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: the Missionaries of Charity expanded into the Eastern Bloc. They
Speaker 1: opened a mission in Moscow, something unthinkable a few years before.
Speaker 1: Mary Johnson wanted to explore places she'd never been to
Speaker 1: be part of the mission out in the world. I
Speaker 1: wanted adventures. I wanted to go places and see things.
Speaker 1: And the constraints that had been placed on me had
Speaker 1: perhaps been done so in a loving manner, but they
Speaker 1: were constraints. Nonetheless. She lived mostly in Rome. She studied theology.
Speaker 1: She did some clerical work. She sometimes visited a prison
Speaker 1: or helped at a home for expecting mothers. By ninet ninety,
Speaker 1: she moved up the ladder again. Mary became a mistress
Speaker 1: for nuns nearing their final vows, the vows for life.
Speaker 1: But when she saw who was on the list of
Speaker 1: sisters she'd be responsible for, her heart stopped. Niobe. Never
Speaker 1: forget our secret, Never forget that I love you. Mary
Speaker 1: hadn't seen Niobe for three years. Now they'd be living
Speaker 1: under the same roof again, only this time Mary would
Speaker 1: be her mistress. That was something I had never envisioned,
Speaker 1: never imagined that Niobe would be someone I would be
Speaker 1: responsible for. And I knew that I was just going
Speaker 1: to have to really make it very very clear to
Speaker 1: her that our relationship could not continue as it had. Okay,
Speaker 1: this is getting a little intense. ERCA. I'm gonna just
Speaker 1: gonna go and come back in like a minute. Sounds good, okay.
Speaker 1: M Mary had told me before that our interviews affected
Speaker 1: her more than she expected. Old nightmares returned, nightmares about
Speaker 1: her time as an MC, the kind of nightmares where
Speaker 1: you feel trapped. We actually took a break from interviews
Speaker 1: for a few months, and I thought, maybe we need
Speaker 1: to end this interview early. Okay, here we go. I see,
Speaker 1: I did sleep much last night. How are you doing? Oh?
Speaker 1: It it comes in waves, it's it's it's kind of intense.
Speaker 1: It's okay, okay. So when Naobe actually arrived at Chersian Ship,
Speaker 1: she was pretty good in the beginning. You know, she
Speaker 1: kind of sat near me at the table a few times,
Speaker 1: but when a new sister came, that was kind of normal,
Speaker 1: so not a big deal. But then one day we
Speaker 1: were having rural class and she always looked very intently
Speaker 1: at me when I was teaching about the rules, especially,
Speaker 1: and she followed me into the office and she shut
Speaker 1: the door behind herself, and she says, what a great
Speaker 1: rural class. And I tell her, it's good to know
Speaker 1: that you're getting something out of the class, and thanks
Speaker 1: for the encouragement. And she says, well, yes, you're a natural,
Speaker 1: and I just want to give you a big hug,
Speaker 1: and she wrapped her arms around me, which had been
Speaker 1: exactly what I wanted a few years before that, but
Speaker 1: not then, because now I was in charge of her
Speaker 1: preparation for her vows, and so I said no, no,
Speaker 1: I don't think we should be doing this. I appreciate
Speaker 1: the gesture, but you know, no, hug and she held
Speaker 1: me and I just had my arms down at my sides,
Speaker 1: trying to give her the message this is not all right.
Speaker 1: And then I told her with words, you know, we
Speaker 1: just really we can't do this anymore. I am your
Speaker 1: Tertian mistress, you are a tersen. We are going to
Speaker 1: keep all the rules. We can't do this anymore. I
Speaker 1: told her, sister Niobe, we can't do this, and she says,
Speaker 1: all right, all right, I can bear anything, but I
Speaker 1: can't bear you calling me sister, and she left and
Speaker 1: I thought, well, she's going to have to get used
Speaker 1: to it, because I'm calling her sister Niobe from here
Speaker 1: on out. We have to make this boundary. That night,
Speaker 1: Mary hid herself harder with the discipline, and in the
Speaker 1: morning she pulled the spike chains extra tight around her waist.
Speaker 1: Mary had never been in a relationship before, and navigating
Speaker 1: boundaries is never easy, especially the first time, especially for
Speaker 1: a nun. Her firm response to Iobe seemed to work
Speaker 1: for a few days. Sister and I will Bee gave
Speaker 1: her space, but not for long. She says. One time,
Speaker 1: now you will be shoved her into the office and
Speaker 1: held her against the wall, pressing on her chest. Another time,
Speaker 1: she followed Mary into the dormitory and tried to untie
Speaker 1: her bodice. Mary kicked her in the shin to make
Speaker 1: her stop. But it started to feel very manipulative. It
Speaker 1: started to feel very abusive. Even though I didn't have
Speaker 1: the word for it at the time, I just knew
Speaker 1: it wasn't right. I just knew it wasn't love, and
Speaker 1: I knew that she wasn't stopping. It just became totally
Speaker 1: out of control. By now, Mary felt like she was
Speaker 1: pouring all her energy into keeping sister Niobe at bay,
Speaker 1: and she had twenty seven other sisters to manage. She
Speaker 1: needed to take care of all of them. And at
Speaker 1: the same time, this part of me that wanted to
Speaker 1: be loved, but this didn't feel like love, and it was.
Speaker 1: It was awful. It was so confusing, it was horrible.
Speaker 1: How would you characterize it now? He said, abusive? Do
Speaker 1: you feel like she was assaulting you? I do feel
Speaker 1: it's abusive. I do feel it's an assault, But clearly
Speaker 1: I was not giving consent. I made that really clear.
Speaker 1: Over and over and over and over again, and she
Speaker 1: just wasn't hearing any of it, finally to the point
Speaker 1: where she kind of wore me down. Fantasy, all right,
Speaker 1: according to the up which my destination. At first, Chobby
Speaker 1: thinks she's found the soup kitchen where Naobe works. Turns
Speaker 1: out she hasn't. She's in a residential neighborhood, clearly not
Speaker 1: the right spot, so she starts asking around. I'm looking
Speaker 1: for the soup kitchen. Oh, the soup kitchen. I was
Speaker 1: told that this is the address. Here's why we're going
Speaker 1: to such links to deliver this letter. These are Mary's
Speaker 1: memories as she expressed them to us. With intimate personal
Speaker 1: experiences like this, especially in an insular religious community, it's
Speaker 1: hard to substantiate all the details. I'm also aware of
Speaker 1: the power dynamic between Mary and Niobe. Mary became Niobe's mistress.
Speaker 1: Mary was in charge, and right now we only have
Speaker 1: her version of events. So I want to reach Niobe.
Speaker 1: When I spoke with her on the phone, she ended
Speaker 1: the conversation before I could explain everything about the story.
Speaker 1: I want to get her as much information as possible
Speaker 1: to give her a chance to share her experience. The
Speaker 1: municipal office is on my right or yes please thankfully.
Speaker 1: Chevy randomly meets someone in the wrong neighborhood who knows
Speaker 1: where to go, and she's got to ask anybody, where
Speaker 1: are the mothers giving free food? And they'll tell you.
Speaker 1: So off I go. How are evening? So you're here
Speaker 1: every day the only Sunday holiday now. Eventually Chavy finds
Speaker 1: the sup kitchen. So I have a letter for thank you.
Speaker 1: We will give it, but you know they've asked me
Speaker 1: to make sure she gets it. Sure will give sure, No,
Speaker 1: I don't. It's not that I don't trust you, of course,
Speaker 1: but I mean they've asked me to make sure that
Speaker 1: her name is Erica and they are in America. Chevy
Speaker 1: speaks with the sister for quite a while. She asks
Speaker 1: if she can speak with Naobi directly. She said she
Speaker 1: doesn't want to talk to anybody nobody to Finally, Chobby
Speaker 1: hands over the letter. But nobody else would read this
Speaker 1: because it's nobody nobody. Yeah, we just need confirmation she
Speaker 1: has received it and whatever she chooses to do up
Speaker 1: O thank you, bye, thank you bye. That's the last
Speaker 1: we've heard. We don't know for sure whether Naobe was
Speaker 1: given the letter, we haven't heard from her. As Mary
Speaker 1: tells the story, she was worn down, exhausted by the
Speaker 1: secret and the relentless back and forth now Be's pressure.
Speaker 1: She wanted it to stop. And then Mary says, now
Speaker 1: I would be approached her with a proposition, just one
Speaker 1: night together. She was going on and on about how
Speaker 1: she wanted just one night to make me feel really good,
Speaker 1: and and she promised that she would stop after that night.
Speaker 1: I wanted that more than anything. I wonder to stop.
Speaker 1: I wonder to stop. Mm hmm. So what ended up happening.
Speaker 1: I went to her one night and I said, okay,
Speaker 1: this is the night. After the sisters went to bed,
Speaker 1: Mary left her cot and crept to where Naobe slept.
Speaker 1: She touched Naobie's shoulder and whispered, tonight. I wanted tonight.
Speaker 1: She went upstairs and waited in a small room that
Speaker 1: wasn't being used. Then sister Naobie arrived. They lay on
Speaker 1: the bed, Niobe on top of Mary, face to face.
Speaker 1: Her weight was comforting, so were Naobe's lips on Mary's forehead,
Speaker 1: then her cheeks and her lips. I love you, Naobie,
Speaker 1: whispered to Mary. I want you, I need you, and
Speaker 1: she may me feel things I had never felt before.
Speaker 1: She it was my first experience of that sort of
Speaker 1: sexual relationship, and it did feel really good, of course
Speaker 1: it did. It was like, if this is a human love,
Speaker 1: how much bigger must God's love be? But the biggest
Speaker 1: thought I was having was okay, so now it's going
Speaker 1: to be over. But it wasn't over, Mary says, and
Speaker 1: I will be ignored their agreement. She didn't staff, not
Speaker 1: at all. She wanted more, and she's like, you must
Speaker 1: want more to of course you want more. And of
Speaker 1: course part of me did what more? But part of
Speaker 1: me didn't. And just again this whole confusion, because what
Speaker 1: happens when a human being who hasn't felt loved, who
Speaker 1: has very little idea of her sexuality, suddenly starts to
Speaker 1: discover those things. Of course you want to know more,
Speaker 1: you want to understand what this is all about. But
Speaker 1: at the same time, the same human being who's beginning
Speaker 1: to discover these new facets of life has vows which
Speaker 1: say those are sinful and you've given that up. And
Speaker 1: that's okay for other people, but it's not okay for you.
Speaker 1: You are a nun. Come on, now wake up. Mary
Speaker 1: says she didn't know what to do. Niobe wouldn't leave
Speaker 1: her alone. Now, she couldn't go to the Superior because
Speaker 1: she'd have to admit she broke her vows. She didn't
Speaker 1: see a way out. One day, her superior approached her.
Speaker 1: She told Mary she needed to share a story in
Speaker 1: confidence and had happened at a general chapter meeting. The
Speaker 1: meeting for MC leadership, Mary Superior said that the sisters
Speaker 1: were all discussing the matters of the day and at
Speaker 1: one point one of them read an anonymous letter. Allowed
Speaker 1: The sister who wrote this letter claimed that there was
Speaker 1: another sister her who had forced herself on her, followed
Speaker 1: her around, had touched her in way she didn't want
Speaker 1: to be touched, wouldn't listen to know. Immediately, Mary thought
Speaker 1: of her own experience. She said that this sister had
Speaker 1: done this from the time she was a novice before
Speaker 1: she took her first vows, that she found sisters in
Speaker 1: the no Vision who were more senior than her, and
Speaker 1: she was doing similar things. Finally, the superior revealed that
Speaker 1: the letter was about Niobe. She thought since Mary was
Speaker 1: Niobe's mistress, she should know. And after this letter was read.
Speaker 1: Mother stood up and Mother Teresa was more angry than
Speaker 1: the superior had ever seen her. Mary assumed she was
Speaker 1: angry at Niobe. Oh no, no, Mother wasn't upset that
Speaker 1: the sister was behaving this way. Mother was upset that
Speaker 1: anyone had written it, and then even that it had
Speaker 1: been read out loud at the chapter. What matter to
Speaker 1: Mother was that someone's reputation had been destroyed, and that
Speaker 1: was kind of devastating to me. Mary was angry, she thought,
Speaker 1: no wonder Niobe keeps getting transferred. No wonder. Sister told
Speaker 1: us not to ask about the trouble Niobe had at
Speaker 1: her last convent. And when Mary learned who else Nao
Speaker 1: be targeted, she realized the sisters resembled her, joined at
Speaker 1: a young age, not likely to have had sexual experiences,
Speaker 1: more senior in the congregation, so if they were found out,
Speaker 1: Naobe wouldn't be blamed. And sure enough, Mother said, it
Speaker 1: can't be this sister's fault, because the sister who is
Speaker 1: more senior, she is the one who should have the responsibility.
Speaker 1: She should know better, she should say no. And then
Speaker 1: of course, if a senior sister says no, the junior
Speaker 1: sister will always obey that, And of course the Bobbie
Speaker 1: wasn't like that at all. And though Niobe was my
Speaker 1: junior and at that point was even under me, she
Speaker 1: was ten years older than I was, and far more
Speaker 1: experienced in so many ways. The more Mary thought about it,
Speaker 1: the more upset she got. Why had no one stopped her?
Speaker 1: How could superiors look the other way? How could Naobi
Speaker 1: have been allowed to take her first vows? Was there
Speaker 1: anyone watching? I think there's was definitely a trend in
Speaker 1: the missionaries of charity, and actually in the Catholic Church
Speaker 1: as a whole, of not paying attention to problems, denying problems,
Speaker 1: not wanting to see that they're They're wanting to blame
Speaker 1: them on an individual's weakness, and therefore saying, well, we're
Speaker 1: all weak, and so let's be forgiving, let's be merciful.
Speaker 1: And of course mercy and love and forgiveness are the
Speaker 1: things that can change people. Love is one of the
Speaker 1: most powerful things. So yes, we should love. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, there is a responsibility when you admit
Speaker 1: someone into a community, and the responsibility is not just
Speaker 1: do that person, but you have to look at how
Speaker 1: that person is affecting the entire community. What Mary did
Speaker 1: next was risky, but she says she had to stop
Speaker 1: Naobe from harming anyone else. She wrote to Mother Teresa
Speaker 1: and put her vocation on the line. She told her
Speaker 1: they had broken the vow of chastity, that she firmly
Speaker 1: believed Naobe shouldn't take her final vows. After Mary sent
Speaker 1: the letter, a sister flew from Germany to Rome for
Speaker 1: the sole purpose of talking to Mary. It was one
Speaker 1: of the most influential sisters in the order, known for
Speaker 1: being strict. She sat at Mother Teresa's desk and scolded
Speaker 1: Mary for breaking her vows, for not setting a good example.
Speaker 1: Mary agreed to every point. She said she was sorry, sister.
Speaker 1: The other responded, I'm sure God forgives you. Jesus forgave
Speaker 1: even Mary Magdalen. In the end, nothing changed. Mary kept
Speaker 1: her position. Naobe took her vows. Mary never felt so powerless.
Speaker 1: After a few months, Mary couldn't take the pressure of
Speaker 1: the convent anymore. When a sister in her house needed
Speaker 1: to go to the hospital, Mary volunteered to take her.
Speaker 1: She realized this was her chance. This little plan was
Speaker 1: forming in the back of my head. The two of
Speaker 1: them got into a car with a driver and they
Speaker 1: drove towards the coast where the hospital was, and there
Speaker 1: were palm trees and there was the sky, and you
Speaker 1: could see the water off in the distance, and it
Speaker 1: was like a breath of freedom. It was like like
Speaker 1: a way to breathe again. And I just wanted more
Speaker 1: and more of that air, that freedom, that life, that light.
Speaker 1: When the sister went in for her appointment, Mary sat
Speaker 1: in the waiting room and reviewed her plan. She knew
Speaker 1: the facility, She tried to remember where the Lost and
Speaker 1: Found was. That's where she'd find normal clothes. She would
Speaker 1: change out of her sorry then make her way to
Speaker 1: one of the empty beach houses nearby. She would escape.
Speaker 1: I thought, this, this is my chance. I just have
Speaker 1: to take it. But just then the doctor and sister reappeared.
Speaker 1: The check up was already over. Ye soon Mary was
Speaker 1: in the car heading back to the convent. After that day,
Speaker 1: she often gaze out the convent window. She stared at
Speaker 1: the back corner of the garden. She imagined digging a hole,
Speaker 1: crawling in and covering herself with dirt. She wrote in
Speaker 1: her notebook, Trapped, Trapped, Trapped. The turning is written by
Speaker 1: Allen lance Lester and me. Our producers are Allen lance
Speaker 1: Lester and Emily Foreman. Our editor is Rob Rosenthal Andrea
Speaker 1: Swahe is our digital producer. Fact checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado.
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Chavy such Dave, Amy Gaines, Sarah oh Lander,
Speaker 1: Murad Frishkoff, Katherine Joyce, Bethan Macaluso, Travis Dunlap, and consulting
Speaker 1: producer Mary Johnson. Her memoir and Unquenchable Thirst provided inspiration
Speaker 1: for this series. Our executive producers are Jessica Albert and
Speaker 1: John Parotti from Rococo Punch and Katrina Norville from My
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Our theme music is by Matt Reid. For
Speaker 1: photos and more details on the series, follow us on
Speaker 1: Instagram at Rococo Punch. You can reach out via email
Speaker 1: to the Turning at Rococo Punch dot com. I'm Erica Lance.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.