1 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: Before we start, I want to let you know that 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: in this episode we discussed the topic of sexual abuse. Listener, 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: discretion is advised. I really wanted that life that Jesus 4 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: had of really living poverty, chastity, obedience, service. You val 5 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:35,520 Speaker 1: for lot vows of poverty, chest in your obedience, obedience, 6 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: and the missionaries of charity have have a fourth foul, 7 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: wholehearted and free service to the poorest of the poor. 8 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa was very concerned about the vow of chastity, 9 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: almost to the point of paranoia. You're never supposed to 10 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: get too close to one sister. You were married to 11 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: the crucified Christ. There was so much fear around anything 12 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: connected with human connection. How Mistress of Earth, hal heavenly Queen, 13 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: how virgin of virgins or chasten Serene. You know, there 14 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: are some very decent sisters here, and you are the best. 15 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: There were regulations against what was termed particular friendship, and 16 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: I didn't really catch the subtext at the time. She says, 17 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: you want to get to know me better, and she's 18 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: asking about my family. You're going to give up intimate 19 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: relationships by a vow of chastity, Yesterdy, you must not 20 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: have any particular friendships Rococo Punch and I Heart Radio. 21 00:01:55,720 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: This is the Turning I America Lands, Part five, particular friendship. 22 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: M hm, So I've just gotten into camp and I'm 23 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: heading to I'm not really sure where, because I've spoken 24 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: to a couple of the sisters on the phone, and 25 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: the ridiculously vague about where I could learn. The Chevy 26 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: such day as a reporter in western India. We hired 27 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: her to find a woman who used to be a 28 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: missionary of charity and is still a sister, but with 29 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: a different organization. This woman we're trying to find. I 30 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: called the house where she lives several times before I 31 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: got her on the phone, but once I started to 32 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 1: explain why I was calling, she quickly ended the conversation. 33 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: Now the other sisters in her group don't want to 34 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: tell us anything, even where they're located. They won't tell 35 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: me where I can reach out. They won't tell me 36 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: where I can find her open, they won't give me 37 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: the address of their residents. And whether the order works 38 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 1: out of the woman Chabby is trying to find is Naobe. 39 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 1: The Bold Nun transferred to Mary Johnson's convent in Rome. 40 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: The Nun who told Mary I love you. I've got 41 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 1: two envelopes with me. There are two versions of the letter. 42 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: She has two drafts of a letter for Niobe in 43 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,920 Speaker 1: case Chabby can't actually talk to her. One of them 44 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: is intentionally vague if we have to hand it to 45 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: someone other than Niobe who might read it. The second 46 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: letter is more explicit in the allegations, and that what 47 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: in an envelope that's a strictly confidential This woman we're 48 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: trying to reach Niobe. She first entered Mary Johnson's life. 49 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: She walked in with his presence that was so unlike 50 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: what most of the missionaries of charity had, and so 51 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: she caught my attention. Mary was twenty nine years old, 52 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 1: Naobie was thirty nine. Naobe's not her real name, by 53 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: the way. At this point Mary had been with the 54 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 1: MCS for a decade, and for all those years, she'd 55 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: been doing everything she could descend to her life on love. 56 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: Love was the point. It's why she joined the m 57 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,600 Speaker 1: CS in the first place. It's what she believed people 58 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: needed most. And I think maybe because I had felt 59 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: excluded in many of the different places I was and 60 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: while my family was a very loving family, when I 61 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: was growing up, But there wasn't a lot of like 62 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: I love you. There was doing things together, there was 63 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 1: doing things for each other. I had that kind of 64 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: like whole, a little bit like many many people do. 65 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: I think, you know, we all longed to be loved, 66 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: to be appreciated, to be seen um and not just 67 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: for the things that we can do, but for who 68 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 1: we are. Then one day, while Mary hung her close 69 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: to dry now you'll be whispered in her ear, Sister, Donata, 70 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: I love you. The clothespin fell for Mary's hand. Does 71 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: she mean like I love you the way I'm supposed 72 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: to love all the sisters Jesus said, love one another 73 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: as I have loved you. No, I don't think that's 74 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: what she means. She's looking at me with this big 75 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: smile in her eyes. I am she's waiting for an answer. 76 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 1: She's what she do I And she picks up the 77 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: clothespin that I dropped, and her arm brushes my arm, 78 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: and I feel like this electric shock kind of thing 79 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: going through me. And she goes away, And I'm looking 80 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: all day long at the big blue sky and listening 81 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: to the sounds of the birds, and everything feels like 82 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: new so you were happy. I was happy. I was confused. 83 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: I was happy. I was But you know, what do 84 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: you do the first time somebody says I love you 85 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: in a way that sounds romantic and meaningful and personal. Um, 86 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 1: I felt good. One afternoon, the sisters were drinking tea 87 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 1: and I will Be slightly leaned over and told a 88 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 1: joke in Mary's ear. When they all stood up to pray, 89 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: the Superior gave Mary a weird look. Now the Superior 90 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: wasn't just any mc. Her name was Sister Joseph Michael. 91 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: She was highly ranked in the order and pretty tight 92 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: with Mother Teresa. In fact, Mother Teresa reportedly saw Sister 93 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: Joseph Michael as a possible replacement for her one day. Now, 94 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: Mary started to worry. Had the Superior seen something between 95 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: her and Iobe. Later that afternoon, Sister Joseph Michael called 96 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 1: Mary to her office. She told her to close the 97 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: do or started pacing. Finally, Sister Joseph Michael spoke slowly 98 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: and tentatively. She said she had a special job for Mary. 99 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: Revised the constitutions, the mission and guidelines of the Missionaries 100 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: of Charity, Mother Teresa's path to Holiness, and I was 101 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: so totally floored, because we are always told that the 102 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: constitutions are the voice of God. Mother Teresa had written 103 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: the constitutions. The story goes on her knees by candle light, 104 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: after all the other sisters had gone to sleep. Mary's 105 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: job was to update the constitutions to reflect current canon law. 106 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: Cannon law is basically the Catholic Church's internal legal system. 107 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: When a new code of Cannon law is issued, Catholic 108 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: orders review and update their own sets of guidelines. Mary 109 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: was updating the MC guidelines after Pope John Paul the 110 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: Second made revisions in the nineteen eighties. These Cannon law 111 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: updates don't happen very often. Pope Francis just released new 112 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: Cannon law revision and those were the first in nearly 113 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: four decades. Every day Mary wheeled a portable typewriter out 114 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: into the garden and worked her way through the constitutions. 115 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: A new word here, a new paragraph there. She couldn't 116 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: make big changes, but editing changed her. Maybe this rule 117 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: book was as human as it was divine. If Mary 118 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: could change the wording of the rules, maybe she could 119 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: tweak them in her own life too. This was the 120 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: backdrop of Mary's relationship with Niobe. While Mary typed, Niobie 121 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:32,719 Speaker 1: would peek her head into the garden and say, have 122 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: a good day. Sometimes she winked. And when I was 123 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: with Naobe, I finally felt myself as lovable and loved. 124 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:47,839 Speaker 1: This kind of thing I was trying to do for 125 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: everybody else all the time, to make them feel seen. 126 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: This was the center of what I was supposed to 127 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: be doing, and for the first time I was feeling 128 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: it for myself. In the weeks followed, Mary talked to 129 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: God about her predicament. She also thanked God because Niobe 130 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: felt like a gift. How can this not be from God? 131 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: If it's making me feel how God wants us to feel. 132 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: God wants us to feel loved, How could that not 133 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:21,599 Speaker 1: be from God. As time passed, Niobe got older, she 134 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 1: dropped the sister and just started calling Mary Donata. She's 135 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 1: not saying sister, or not to the way we were 136 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: always supposed to do. So just dropping that sister was 137 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: so intimate. She'd rushed past Mary in the hall, touch 138 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: her foot under the table. This made Mary nervous, really nervous. 139 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: There was no privacy in the convent. Everyone knew everyone's business, 140 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:46,079 Speaker 1: but Niobe didn't stop, and Mary didn't stop her. We 141 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: would bow down and touch our heads to the floor 142 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 1: of the chapel. It was a tradition that was adopted 143 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 1: from India, and it was really bad because sometimes she 144 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: would get right behind me and as she would grab 145 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: hold of my feet when she'd bow down and again, 146 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: it felt kind of delicious, and at the same time, 147 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: if anybody saw that that, that would be a horrible 148 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:15,719 Speaker 1: It could be awful because I had been having this 149 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: crisis of conscience because even though her love felt so 150 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: good and it felt so much like God, and part 151 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,319 Speaker 1: of me believed it was a gift from God, another 152 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: part of me knew it was wrong and that I 153 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: shouldn't be having any sort of special relationship with her sister. 154 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: What we were sharing was dangerous and against my vows. 155 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 1: And I had actually determined that I was going to 156 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:44,839 Speaker 1: tell her that, but she didn't have the chance. Sister 157 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: Naobe came with her own news. Naobe had been instructed 158 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: not to tell anyone, but she was being transferred that 159 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: same day. She had a new assignment in Napoli. I 160 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,839 Speaker 1: was so relieved because I had been It kind of 161 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,839 Speaker 1: like solved my problem, even though I knew I was 162 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: going to miss her, and all of these different things 163 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 1: whirling through my head at once. And she comes close 164 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: to me and she says, never forget our secret, never 165 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: forget that I love you, And I told her I 166 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: love you too, the last words I said to her 167 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: before she left. Mary finished updating the constitutions, but now 168 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: she creeped something. Those rules didn't allow something small, even 169 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 1: just a hand on her arm, you know, even like 170 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: the sign of peace at mass, where people would normally 171 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: shake hands, we do that kind of namastay sort of 172 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: thing where you join your hands in front of your 173 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: chest and bow to each other. So really nothing, nothing 174 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,559 Speaker 1: as far as touch goes. One day, a van from 175 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: Napoli showed up that the convent with supplies, and when 176 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: Mary went to greet it, Naobe was there and packing 177 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: the boxes. Mary was thrilled. She asked Naobe to come 178 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: inside with her and I said, you know, I've been 179 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: thinking about something and I want to ask you something. 180 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,839 Speaker 1: And she says, sure, ask so well, you hold me, 181 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: she says, hold you. I said, yeah, just just put 182 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: your arms around me for a minute. And she kind 183 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: of looks at the windows and I maneuver us into 184 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: a place where nobody will see us and close a 185 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: couple of blinds. And then she puts her arms around me, 186 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: and it feels so good. And she leans over and 187 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 1: she kisses the top of my sorry covered head. I 188 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: could hear her heart beating, I could feel her arms 189 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: around me. I just like like everything inside me is melting. 190 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: She held me just a second more and then she 191 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: went away. Niobe got back in the van and left. 192 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:26,719 Speaker 1: It would be three years before Mary saw her again. So, 193 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: like most of you, I used to be a nun. 194 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: Uh very relatable. That's very relatable. Instand up comedy, to 195 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: get up and starts to talk about how you used 196 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: to be a nun and I used to been on 197 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: with the outfit and everything. Kelly Dunham followed her calling 198 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: all the way from the missionaries of charity to the stage. 199 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: So the first question is um oh like the sound 200 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: of music. Uh No, there were less children and matching 201 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: outfits and less Nazis in my story. Kelly lives in Brooklyn. 202 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: She lasted about two years as a sister with the MCS. 203 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 1: To you her words, she flunked out. She had the 204 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: hardest time with the vow of chastity. Not the sex 205 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: part that wasn't it. It was the way the MCS 206 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 1: took the vow so far, avoiding all friendship. Initially, the 207 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: Order sounded like a fantasy women working together towards a 208 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: common goal of caring for others. Instead, Kelly says she 209 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: would be asked to leave her humanity behind, but it 210 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: definitely makes for good material. One time, we got up 211 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: in the morning and Sister Malagro told us that if 212 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: we really loved Jesus, we would mortify ourselves by going 213 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: to the bathroom only once a day. Now, I thought 214 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: she was kidding, so I laughed and said, okay, just 215 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: call me Sister Mary bladder infection. She didn't think that 216 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: was funny. Kelly joined the Order for idealistic reasons, but 217 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: when she looks back, she knows she was a little 218 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: different from the stereotypical MC. First off, she didn't grow 219 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: up Catholic. She was raised as an evangelical Christian. I'm also, 220 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: you know, like a very queer person. Even though I 221 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: did not know it then, I just knew I didn't 222 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: fit in very well. She first got involved with the 223 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: Missionaries of Charity as a volunteer in Haiti. Most aid 224 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: organizations and Haiti frustrated her. They didn't seem to give 225 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: Haitian people a voice. But as she saw the MCS 226 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: listened to what locals had to say. She loved how 227 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: the sisters looked in their sories, how they worked so hard, 228 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: how strong they were. By that spring, I was in 229 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: love not with like one sister, but like with all 230 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: of them. Before she could join the MCS, she had 231 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: to convert to Catholicism. As it turns out, they kind 232 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: of insist on that thing. While Kelly was becoming a Catholic, 233 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: she volunteered with the Sisters in Miami, and eventually she 234 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: got word the MCS had accepted her. She would start 235 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: her training in New York. So the Sisters in Miami 236 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: had her over for Tea to say goodbye, and they 237 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: made me this card. You know. I opened it up 238 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: and was like, welcome to your beautiful vocation. And it 239 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: said something like you know, your love of Christ must 240 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: destroy you completely. And then I had like a little 241 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: pictures a little like red drops off the words and 242 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: they're like, oh, it's the blood of Jesus. I'm like, wow, 243 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: this is so gruesome. Your love of Christ must destroy 244 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: you completely. One of the professed sisters pulled Kelly aside. 245 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: She said, if at some point you feel like they're 246 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: really breaking your head, then you just leave, just run 247 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: and just go. There's one story from the convent that 248 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: really sticks out to Kelly. It's when her mistress told 249 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: over and over again as this inspirational tale. A superior 250 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: walks into a chapel of praying sisters and instead of 251 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: saying anything, she writes a message on a chalkboard, please 252 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 1: pray for the father of Sister Mary whoever he's very ill. 253 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: And then that's how she found out that her father 254 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: was sick. And then fifteen minutes later the superior came 255 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: in um wipe that off the black board and wrote, 256 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: please pray for the father of sister whoever r I P. 257 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: So that's how she found out how her father died, 258 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: and the superior didn't say anything else the end. That's 259 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: the story that just seems needlessly cruel. And she said 260 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: that sister has really trusted Jesus and really trusted her superior. 261 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: That much like those are the stories you hear when 262 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: somebody wants to like tell you an inspirational story. You know, 263 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: that's whacko for inspirational story. In another story from her mistress, 264 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: as sister finds out her entire family was killed in 265 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: the Rwandan Civil War, after a few tears, she never 266 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: mentions it again, and that has held out this kind 267 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: of the gold standard, that she trusted Jesus so much 268 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: that she never had an emotional expression about it after that. 269 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 1: But I think the mission is a charity, like your feelings. 270 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 1: We're just supposed to be irrelevant and we're not giving 271 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: you information. There were just things that you pray to 272 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: get rid of them. But people have feelings and the 273 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 1: things actually are information, and it's just so not compatible 274 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: with the way humans are. I'm really good with kids. 275 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 1: It's one of my strengths. This is Mary Anderson, not 276 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: to be confused with Mary Johnson. There are a lot 277 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: of Mary's in this story, Like the other Mary, this 278 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: one worked with kids as part of her service work. 279 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: And I love them, and I connected with them, and 280 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: I would play with them. And she skipped with them, 281 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: and I was told that that was wrong. I wasn't 282 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 1: conducting myself as a proper nun. And surely Mary the 283 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: Mother of God never skipped. And I remember thinking that's rubbish, 284 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: like skipping is joyful, and why should I be, you know, 285 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,440 Speaker 1: having to do penance like kidding ourselves or kneeling on 286 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 1: hard floors or you know, because I was skipping, and 287 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: I was just so torn up by those things, and 288 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: yet to be constantly told that, well, you have to 289 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 1: not trust what you think and shield you have to 290 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: think the way we do, and what you think is 291 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: wrong and you're you know, and and so I was 292 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 1: getting the message over and over you cannot trust what 293 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: you think. Your thoughts are not very good because they're 294 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: not right, you know. Not every former MC sister sees 295 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: detachment as a bad thing. Joan Worcester says, it's incredibly valuable. 296 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: I think I got a great relationship with God through 297 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: all of this. Even though there was some suffering involved, 298 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: I feel like it was the best experience of my life. 299 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: The main thing was not having anything. That was tremendous 300 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: for me because I have no attachment to anything at 301 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: this point in my life. It taught me so much 302 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: for detachment, even from objects, from objects, from people. I 303 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: always say this to people, and I think it's hard 304 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: for people to understand this. Or I say, I love people. 305 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: I love my husband, I love my children, but I'm 306 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 1: not attached. My life journey is my attachment to God totally. 307 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: So while I appreciate and love, I'm just not attached, 308 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: if that makes sense, I think. So that's such an 309 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: interesting concept for me, and I think I'm probably pretty attached, 310 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: but I can love. The thing about love for me 311 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: is I can love so much more because I'm not attached. 312 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: If I have my husband for as long as I 313 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,120 Speaker 1: have him, if he were to die, my life would 314 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: not change. It would change in what I would have 315 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: to deal with, you know, depression or sadness, but it 316 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 1: wouldn't change my love for him, you know what I'm saying. 317 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: So so that way, it's kind of like a for me, 318 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: it's a release of life, but I get to live 319 00:20:54,160 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 1: the life. It sounds peaceful it is. But any former 320 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:04,400 Speaker 1: sisters we spoke to think this forced detachment is crippling. 321 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: They say it's a contradiction to be asked to love 322 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: and help others and also remain emotionally distant. They struggled 323 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:15,360 Speaker 1: with this rule against friendship, or what's called particular friendship, 324 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: which is like kind of the euphemism for like non 325 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 1: non action, But even when people had kind of platonic friendships, 326 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 1: they'd often send people away because they just didn't want 327 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 1: people to be connected to each other. Kelly says, mcs 328 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: weren't just worried about particular friendships. Appearance and demeanor were 329 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 1: also scrutinized. They have a lot of talk about like 330 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 1: how our lady was very feminine, you know, they say, like, oh, 331 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: our lady, she was a real lady, you know whatever. 332 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: As sisters in Kelly's training class progressed to the next level, 333 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: Kelly says she was held back. The specific problem that 334 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 1: they said that I had was that I had too 335 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: much self esteem and insufficient facility. Even when I managed 336 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 1: to say the right things, they would say that my 337 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: body language was like I walked like my shoulders were angry, 338 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: is how they said it, which, you know, I think 339 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 1: that could mean a lot of things too, What do 340 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: you mean by that? Like I remember one time she 341 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: lent me her prayer book and it had a little 342 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:12,199 Speaker 1: list of the things she was praying about, and one 343 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: of them was me, And she said that I was scary, 344 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,199 Speaker 1: and I was like, nobody in my life has ever 345 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: called me scary, But I think that there was something 346 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 1: about me that was maybe threatening to her. Maybe it 347 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: was about sexuality, I don't know. All Kelly knew for 348 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: sure was that she was stressed, so stressed that she 349 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 1: says she got her period for four months straight, which 350 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: I think was my body's way of being like get out, 351 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: get out, you know. And we used like non disposable, 352 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: um menstreal stuff, right like really, they just handed us diapers, 353 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 1: you know, like the cloth diapers that we folded up 354 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 1: and then we had to wash them by hand. And 355 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: so one day we were cleaning the women's shelter in 356 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: Harlem and there was a tampon sitting on top of 357 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: one of the dressers and I was like, I'm gonna 358 00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: borrow that, and then I put it in my pocket 359 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: and then I was walking away. I was like, I'm 360 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 1: not gonna borrow it. I'm not giving it back. And 361 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 1: that was kind of the moment where I was like, 362 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: you know, this is not making me a better person, 363 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: Like I don't know who who I am. Maybe you know, 364 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: but I know who I don't want to be, and 365 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 1: that's a person who steals a tampon from a homeless woman. 366 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 1: And I don't think i've ever been as stressed as 367 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: I was in that situation. She had to walk away. 368 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,679 Speaker 1: Kelly turned in her Sorry, it's sad because I did 369 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,640 Speaker 1: see sisters, even sisters who seem like they were pretty happy. 370 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: And with the life just being destroyed by this constant 371 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: need of mistresses and superiors to destroy the bonds between people, 372 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 1: the advance of human liberty can only strengthen the cause 373 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: of world peace. There is one sign the Soviets can 374 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 1: make that would be unmistakable. In the late nineteen eighties, 375 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: big changes were underway. The world was spinning, the Soviet 376 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: Union was reforming. President Ronald Reagan gave a speech in 377 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: front of the Berlin Wall. Mr Grabschof teared down this wall. Meanwhile, 378 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,439 Speaker 1: the Missionaries of Charity expanded into the Eastern Bloc. They 379 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: opened a mission in Moscow, something unthinkable a few years before. 380 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 1: Mary Johnson wanted to explore places she'd never been to 381 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 1: be part of the mission out in the world. I 382 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 1: wanted adventures. I wanted to go places and see things. 383 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 1: And the constraints that had been placed on me had 384 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,479 Speaker 1: perhaps been done so in a loving manner, but they 385 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 1: were constraints. Nonetheless. She lived mostly in Rome. She studied theology. 386 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: She did some clerical work. She sometimes visited a prison 387 00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 1: or helped at a home for expecting mothers. By ninet ninety, 388 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: she moved up the ladder again. Mary became a mistress 389 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 1: for nuns nearing their final vows, the vows for life. 390 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: But when she saw who was on the list of 391 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 1: sisters she'd be responsible for, her heart stopped. Niobe. Never 392 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: forget our secret, Never forget that I love you. Mary 393 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: hadn't seen Niobe for three years. Now they'd be living 394 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: under the same roof again, only this time Mary would 395 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,200 Speaker 1: be her mistress. That was something I had never envisioned, 396 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: never imagined that Niobe would be someone I would be 397 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: responsible for. And I knew that I was just going 398 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: to have to really make it very very clear to 399 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: her that our relationship could not continue as it had. Okay, 400 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: this is getting a little intense. ERCA. I'm gonna just 401 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,679 Speaker 1: gonna go and come back in like a minute. Sounds good, okay. 402 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:02,680 Speaker 1: M Mary had told me before that our interviews affected 403 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 1: her more than she expected. Old nightmares returned, nightmares about 404 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: her time as an MC, the kind of nightmares where 405 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: you feel trapped. We actually took a break from interviews 406 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: for a few months, and I thought, maybe we need 407 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: to end this interview early. Okay, here we go. I see, 408 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: I did sleep much last night. How are you doing? Oh? 409 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 1: It it comes in waves, it's it's it's kind of intense. 410 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: It's okay, okay. So when Naobe actually arrived at Chersian Ship, 411 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 1: she was pretty good in the beginning. You know, she 412 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 1: kind of sat near me at the table a few times, 413 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: but when a new sister came, that was kind of normal, 414 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: so not a big deal. But then one day we 415 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: were having rural class and she always looked very intently 416 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: at me when I was teaching about the rules, especially, 417 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: and she followed me into the office and she shut 418 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 1: the door behind herself, and she says, what a great 419 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: rural class. And I tell her, it's good to know 420 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: that you're getting something out of the class, and thanks 421 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 1: for the encouragement. And she says, well, yes, you're a natural, 422 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: and I just want to give you a big hug, 423 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,120 Speaker 1: and she wrapped her arms around me, which had been 424 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,159 Speaker 1: exactly what I wanted a few years before that, but 425 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: not then, because now I was in charge of her 426 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 1: preparation for her vows, and so I said no, no, 427 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: I don't think we should be doing this. I appreciate 428 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 1: the gesture, but you know, no, hug and she held 429 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 1: me and I just had my arms down at my sides, 430 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 1: trying to give her the message this is not all right. 431 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: And then I told her with words, you know, we 432 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: just really we can't do this anymore. I am your 433 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: Tertian mistress, you are a tersen. We are going to 434 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 1: keep all the rules. We can't do this anymore. I 435 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 1: told her, sister Niobe, we can't do this, and she says, 436 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: all right, all right, I can bear anything, but I 437 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: can't bear you calling me sister, and she left and 438 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,439 Speaker 1: I thought, well, she's going to have to get used 439 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: to it, because I'm calling her sister Niobe from here 440 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: on out. We have to make this boundary. That night, 441 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: Mary hid herself harder with the discipline, and in the 442 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: morning she pulled the spike chains extra tight around her waist. 443 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: Mary had never been in a relationship before, and navigating 444 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: boundaries is never easy, especially the first time, especially for 445 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: a nun. Her firm response to Iobe seemed to work 446 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: for a few days. Sister and I will Bee gave 447 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: her space, but not for long. She says. One time, 448 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: now you will be shoved her into the office and 449 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: held her against the wall, pressing on her chest. Another time, 450 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: she followed Mary into the dormitory and tried to untie 451 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: her bodice. Mary kicked her in the shin to make 452 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: her stop. But it started to feel very manipulative. It 453 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: started to feel very abusive. Even though I didn't have 454 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 1: the word for it at the time, I just knew 455 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: it wasn't right. I just knew it wasn't love, and 456 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: I knew that she wasn't stopping. It just became totally 457 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: out of control. By now, Mary felt like she was 458 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: pouring all her energy into keeping sister Niobe at bay, 459 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: and she had twenty seven other sisters to manage. She 460 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 1: needed to take care of all of them. And at 461 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: the same time, this part of me that wanted to 462 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: be loved, but this didn't feel like love, and it was. 463 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: It was awful. It was so confusing, it was horrible. 464 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: How would you characterize it now? He said, abusive? Do 465 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: you feel like she was assaulting you? I do feel 466 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: it's abusive. I do feel it's an assault, But clearly 467 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: I was not giving consent. I made that really clear. 468 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: Over and over and over and over again, and she 469 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: just wasn't hearing any of it, finally to the point 470 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: where she kind of wore me down. Fantasy, all right, 471 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: according to the up which my destination. At first, Chobby 472 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: thinks she's found the soup kitchen where Naobe works. Turns 473 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: out she hasn't. She's in a residential neighborhood, clearly not 474 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: the right spot, so she starts asking around. I'm looking 475 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 1: for the soup kitchen. Oh, the soup kitchen. I was 476 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: told that this is the address. Here's why we're going 477 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: to such links to deliver this letter. These are Mary's 478 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 1: memories as she expressed them to us. With intimate personal 479 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: experiences like this, especially in an insular religious community, it's 480 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 1: hard to substantiate all the details. I'm also aware of 481 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: the power dynamic between Mary and Niobe. Mary became Niobe's mistress. 482 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 1: Mary was in charge, and right now we only have 483 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: her version of events. So I want to reach Niobe. 484 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: When I spoke with her on the phone, she ended 485 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: the conversation before I could explain everything about the story. 486 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: I want to get her as much information as possible 487 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: to give her a chance to share her experience. The 488 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 1: municipal office is on my right or yes please thankfully. 489 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: Chevy randomly meets someone in the wrong neighborhood who knows 490 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: where to go, and she's got to ask anybody, where 491 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: are the mothers giving free food? And they'll tell you. 492 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: So off I go. How are evening? So you're here 493 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 1: every day the only Sunday holiday now. Eventually Chavy finds 494 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: the sup kitchen. So I have a letter for thank you. 495 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 1: We will give it, but you know they've asked me 496 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: to make sure she gets it. Sure will give sure, No, 497 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: I don't. It's not that I don't trust you, of course, 498 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 1: but I mean they've asked me to make sure that 499 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: her name is Erica and they are in America. Chevy 500 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: speaks with the sister for quite a while. She asks 501 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: if she can speak with Naobi directly. She said she 502 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 1: doesn't want to talk to anybody nobody to Finally, Chobby 503 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: hands over the letter. But nobody else would read this 504 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 1: because it's nobody nobody. Yeah, we just need confirmation she 505 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: has received it and whatever she chooses to do up 506 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 1: O thank you, bye, thank you bye. That's the last 507 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 1: we've heard. We don't know for sure whether Naobe was 508 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: given the letter, we haven't heard from her. As Mary 509 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: tells the story, she was worn down, exhausted by the 510 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: secret and the relentless back and forth now Be's pressure. 511 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 1: She wanted it to stop. And then Mary says, now 512 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: I would be approached her with a proposition, just one 513 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: night together. She was going on and on about how 514 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: she wanted just one night to make me feel really good, 515 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 1: and and she promised that she would stop after that night. 516 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,240 Speaker 1: I wanted that more than anything. I wonder to stop. 517 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: I wonder to stop. Mm hmm. So what ended up happening. 518 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,720 Speaker 1: I went to her one night and I said, okay, 519 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: this is the night. After the sisters went to bed, 520 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: Mary left her cot and crept to where Naobe slept. 521 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 1: She touched Naobie's shoulder and whispered, tonight. I wanted tonight. 522 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 1: She went upstairs and waited in a small room that 523 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:42,320 Speaker 1: wasn't being used. Then sister Naobie arrived. They lay on 524 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 1: the bed, Niobe on top of Mary, face to face. 525 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: Her weight was comforting, so were Naobe's lips on Mary's forehead, 526 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: then her cheeks and her lips. I love you, Naobie, 527 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 1: whispered to Mary. I want you, I need you, and 528 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,760 Speaker 1: she may me feel things I had never felt before. 529 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 1: She it was my first experience of that sort of 530 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 1: sexual relationship, and it did feel really good, of course 531 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:24,879 Speaker 1: it did. It was like, if this is a human love, 532 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 1: how much bigger must God's love be? But the biggest 533 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: thought I was having was okay, so now it's going 534 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:35,320 Speaker 1: to be over. But it wasn't over, Mary says, and 535 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 1: I will be ignored their agreement. She didn't staff, not 536 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: at all. She wanted more, and she's like, you must 537 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: want more to of course you want more. And of 538 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 1: course part of me did what more? But part of 539 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: me didn't. And just again this whole confusion, because what 540 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:55,400 Speaker 1: happens when a human being who hasn't felt loved, who 541 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 1: has very little idea of her sexuality, suddenly starts to 542 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,839 Speaker 1: discover those things. Of course you want to know more, 543 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,279 Speaker 1: you want to understand what this is all about. But 544 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: at the same time, the same human being who's beginning 545 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 1: to discover these new facets of life has vows which 546 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: say those are sinful and you've given that up. And 547 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,840 Speaker 1: that's okay for other people, but it's not okay for you. 548 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:28,359 Speaker 1: You are a nun. Come on, now wake up. Mary 549 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 1: says she didn't know what to do. Niobe wouldn't leave 550 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 1: her alone. Now, she couldn't go to the Superior because 551 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 1: she'd have to admit she broke her vows. She didn't 552 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: see a way out. One day, her superior approached her. 553 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: She told Mary she needed to share a story in 554 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 1: confidence and had happened at a general chapter meeting. The 555 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 1: meeting for MC leadership, Mary Superior said that the sisters 556 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 1: were all discussing the matters of the day and at 557 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: one point one of them read an anonymous letter. Allowed 558 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: The sister who wrote this letter claimed that there was 559 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:07,880 Speaker 1: another sister her who had forced herself on her, followed 560 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: her around, had touched her in way she didn't want 561 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 1: to be touched, wouldn't listen to know. Immediately, Mary thought 562 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:19,359 Speaker 1: of her own experience. She said that this sister had 563 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: done this from the time she was a novice before 564 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 1: she took her first vows, that she found sisters in 565 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 1: the no Vision who were more senior than her, and 566 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: she was doing similar things. Finally, the superior revealed that 567 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: the letter was about Niobe. She thought since Mary was 568 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: Niobe's mistress, she should know. And after this letter was read. 569 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: Mother stood up and Mother Teresa was more angry than 570 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: the superior had ever seen her. Mary assumed she was 571 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 1: angry at Niobe. Oh no, no, Mother wasn't upset that 572 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 1: the sister was behaving this way. Mother was upset that 573 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: anyone had written it, and then even that it had 574 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: been read out loud at the chapter. What matter to 575 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 1: Mother was that someone's reputation had been destroyed, and that 576 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: was kind of devastating to me. Mary was angry, she thought, 577 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 1: no wonder Niobe keeps getting transferred. No wonder. Sister told 578 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: us not to ask about the trouble Niobe had at 579 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,879 Speaker 1: her last convent. And when Mary learned who else Nao 580 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 1: be targeted, she realized the sisters resembled her, joined at 581 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 1: a young age, not likely to have had sexual experiences, 582 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 1: more senior in the congregation, so if they were found out, 583 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 1: Naobe wouldn't be blamed. And sure enough, Mother said, it 584 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,320 Speaker 1: can't be this sister's fault, because the sister who is 585 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:46,240 Speaker 1: more senior, she is the one who should have the responsibility. 586 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 1: She should know better, she should say no. And then 587 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,360 Speaker 1: of course, if a senior sister says no, the junior 588 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 1: sister will always obey that, And of course the Bobbie 589 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 1: wasn't like that at all. And though Niobe was my 590 00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,800 Speaker 1: junior and at that point was even under me, she 591 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 1: was ten years older than I was, and far more 592 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 1: experienced in so many ways. The more Mary thought about it, 593 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:09,960 Speaker 1: the more upset she got. Why had no one stopped her? 594 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 1: How could superiors look the other way? How could Naobi 595 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,680 Speaker 1: have been allowed to take her first vows? Was there 596 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: anyone watching? I think there's was definitely a trend in 597 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 1: the missionaries of charity, and actually in the Catholic Church 598 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 1: as a whole, of not paying attention to problems, denying problems, 599 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 1: not wanting to see that they're They're wanting to blame 600 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,359 Speaker 1: them on an individual's weakness, and therefore saying, well, we're 601 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: all weak, and so let's be forgiving, let's be merciful. 602 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:43,320 Speaker 1: And of course mercy and love and forgiveness are the 603 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,400 Speaker 1: things that can change people. Love is one of the 604 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 1: most powerful things. So yes, we should love. But at 605 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: the same time, there is a responsibility when you admit 606 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:59,320 Speaker 1: someone into a community, and the responsibility is not just 607 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:01,799 Speaker 1: do that person, but you have to look at how 608 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: that person is affecting the entire community. What Mary did 609 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,239 Speaker 1: next was risky, but she says she had to stop 610 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 1: Naobe from harming anyone else. She wrote to Mother Teresa 611 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 1: and put her vocation on the line. She told her 612 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 1: they had broken the vow of chastity, that she firmly 613 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 1: believed Naobe shouldn't take her final vows. After Mary sent 614 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,360 Speaker 1: the letter, a sister flew from Germany to Rome for 615 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: the sole purpose of talking to Mary. It was one 616 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,360 Speaker 1: of the most influential sisters in the order, known for 617 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 1: being strict. She sat at Mother Teresa's desk and scolded 618 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,960 Speaker 1: Mary for breaking her vows, for not setting a good example. 619 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,760 Speaker 1: Mary agreed to every point. She said she was sorry, sister. 620 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,640 Speaker 1: The other responded, I'm sure God forgives you. Jesus forgave 621 00:40:55,680 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 1: even Mary Magdalen. In the end, nothing changed. Mary kept 622 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 1: her position. Naobe took her vows. Mary never felt so powerless. 623 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 1: After a few months, Mary couldn't take the pressure of 624 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 1: the convent anymore. When a sister in her house needed 625 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,759 Speaker 1: to go to the hospital, Mary volunteered to take her. 626 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 1: She realized this was her chance. This little plan was 627 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:35,480 Speaker 1: forming in the back of my head. The two of 628 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 1: them got into a car with a driver and they 629 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 1: drove towards the coast where the hospital was, and there 630 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,040 Speaker 1: were palm trees and there was the sky, and you 631 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,440 Speaker 1: could see the water off in the distance, and it 632 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,440 Speaker 1: was like a breath of freedom. It was like like 633 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,239 Speaker 1: a way to breathe again. And I just wanted more 634 00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:00,839 Speaker 1: and more of that air, that freedom, that life, that light. 635 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 1: When the sister went in for her appointment, Mary sat 636 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 1: in the waiting room and reviewed her plan. She knew 637 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 1: the facility, She tried to remember where the Lost and 638 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,839 Speaker 1: Found was. That's where she'd find normal clothes. She would 639 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,000 Speaker 1: change out of her sorry then make her way to 640 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 1: one of the empty beach houses nearby. She would escape. 641 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,239 Speaker 1: I thought, this, this is my chance. I just have 642 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:30,400 Speaker 1: to take it. But just then the doctor and sister reappeared. 643 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:48,360 Speaker 1: The check up was already over. Ye soon Mary was 644 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:56,879 Speaker 1: in the car heading back to the convent. After that day, 645 00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,440 Speaker 1: she often gaze out the convent window. She stared at 646 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,879 Speaker 1: the back corner of the garden. She imagined digging a hole, 647 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:08,840 Speaker 1: crawling in and covering herself with dirt. She wrote in 648 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:51,319 Speaker 1: her notebook, Trapped, Trapped, Trapped. The turning is written by 649 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:54,319 Speaker 1: Allen lance Lester and me. Our producers are Allen lance 650 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,880 Speaker 1: Lester and Emily Foreman. Our editor is Rob Rosenthal Andrea 651 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:02,200 Speaker 1: Swahe is our digital producer. Fact checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado. 652 00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:06,440 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Chavy such Dave, Amy Gaines, Sarah oh Lander, 653 00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 1: Murad Frishkoff, Katherine Joyce, Bethan Macaluso, Travis Dunlap, and consulting 654 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:15,000 Speaker 1: producer Mary Johnson. Her memoir and Unquenchable Thirst provided inspiration 655 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 1: for this series. Our executive producers are Jessica Albert and 656 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,320 Speaker 1: John Parotti from Rococo Punch and Katrina Norville from My 657 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,600 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Our theme music is by Matt Reid. For 658 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:27,960 Speaker 1: photos and more details on the series, follow us on 659 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 1: Instagram at Rococo Punch. You can reach out via email 660 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:35,920 Speaker 1: to the Turning at Rococo Punch dot com. I'm Erica Lance. 661 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:37,080 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.