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Speaker 1: Finally have we found the link between Brian Coburger and

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Speaker 1: his four murder victims. According to police, of course, the

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Speaker 1: state never has to prove motive, but any jury would

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Speaker 1: wonder why would he target people he had never met

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Speaker 1: or had he I mean, see Grace, this is crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation

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Speaker 1: in Serious m one eleven. First of all, take a

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Speaker 1: listen to our friends at Fox thirteen Seattle. David Rose

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Speaker 1: actually asked a retired Seattle police detective about why investigators

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Speaker 1: have not revealed a possible connection between him and the victims.

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Speaker 1: You never have to know why it happened. You just

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Speaker 1: have to show that it happened. I mean, everybody wants

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Speaker 1: to know why and the link between this guy and

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Speaker 1: the victims, and maybe they'll come out in the future,

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Speaker 1: but it's not necessary for a successful p Well, he's

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Speaker 1: absolutely correct about that. I've got an all star panel

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Speaker 1: to break down what we know right now. But before

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Speaker 1: I go to Fox Senior correspondent Laura Ingle let me

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Speaker 1: hit Dell Carson, high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville, and

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Speaker 1: weren't report it to me. It's a former fed with

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Speaker 1: the FBI, former cop in Miami Dade, certainly no lack

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Speaker 1: of business there. You can find him at Dell Carson

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Speaker 1: dot com. Dell. The state never has to prove the

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Speaker 1: motive ever under the law. But I always try to

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Speaker 1: give the jury a motive or some sort of a

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Speaker 1: connection between the victim and the defendant, because they're looking

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Speaker 1: for that. And if you don't give it to them.

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Speaker 1: I don't mean just anything you can dig up. I

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Speaker 1: mean the motive, the connection. They could go back to

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Speaker 1: the jurymoan and think, wow, you know what, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of forensic governants, but he never even met these people.

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Speaker 1: There's got to be another way to explain why his

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Speaker 1: DNA on the knife sheath. If you don't give them

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Speaker 1: a motive or nexus, you're going to have a problem

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Speaker 1: come Verdictime, Well, that's absolutely the right, Nancy. You're so right.

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Speaker 1: The idea that humans and a jury panel can convict

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Speaker 1: somebody just based on circumstantial evidence, which we've seen put

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Speaker 1: together in the arrest affidavit is very difficult for the

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Speaker 1: prosecution and it's one of the ways the defense attorneys

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Speaker 1: poke holes in that kind of circumstantial case. All you

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Speaker 1: have to do is a defense attorney is present reasonable doubt,

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Speaker 1: such as you know Sydney sitting here at the studio

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Speaker 1: hadn't never even met Dale Carson before her finger prance

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Speaker 1: turn up at the murder scene. Hey, maybe she was

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Speaker 1: just there for a party earlier a little chip and

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Speaker 1: dip went down. That doesn't mean she's the killer. Well,

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Speaker 1: of course she is the killer, but one jerar could

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Speaker 1: just be the fly in the ointment if you don't

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Speaker 1: give a motive. But again, let me reiterate, state never

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Speaker 1: has to prove motive. But do we finally have a

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Speaker 1: link between Brian Coburger, the PhD hopeful in criminology, and

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Speaker 1: the four and I can only describe them as a

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Speaker 1: beautiful young Idaho University students Take a listen now to

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Speaker 1: our friend Dave Matt at crime online dot com. Just

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Speaker 1: two weeks before four University of Idaho students were murdered

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Speaker 1: last November, Brian Coburger sent a series of messages to

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Speaker 1: one of the victims on Instagram. An investigator close to

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Speaker 1: the case tells people in late October, an account authorities

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Speaker 1: believe belonged to Brian Coburger sent a greeting to one

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Speaker 1: of the female victims, and when he didn't get a reply.

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Speaker 1: He sent several more messages to her. The source said

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Speaker 1: he slid into one of the girl's DMS several times,

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Speaker 1: but she didn't respond. Basically, it was just him saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: how are you? But he did it again and again

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Speaker 1: and again and never got a reply. Straight out to

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Speaker 1: Laura Ingle joining me, Laura, it sure is an honor

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Speaker 1: and privilege to have you with us here today on

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Speaker 1: crime stories. Laura Ingles, Senior correspondent, Fox News Channel. Here's

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Speaker 1: the irony. Laura Angle, the girl or girls or even Ethan,

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Speaker 1: but I think it was one of the girls may

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Speaker 1: have never known that Koburger was dming them, which is

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Speaker 1: I actually got a question less line on Twitter. What

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Speaker 1: is a DM. It's a direct message and that means

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Speaker 1: that you can if you post something on Insta, everybody

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Speaker 1: that follows you is going to see it, but you

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Speaker 1: can direct message. Let's just say I have Laura Ingles Insta,

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Speaker 1: I can DM her, direct message her and everybody else

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Speaker 1: in the world doesn't see it. So Laura Ingle, the

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Speaker 1: girl or girls may not have even seen his messages,

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Speaker 1: his barrage of messages. That's correct, and of course the

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Speaker 1: news coming to us from a stor that spoke to

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Speaker 1: People magazine about this. But you can only imagine that

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Speaker 1: we are knowing this now because the phone was handed

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Speaker 1: over the parents. I think have looked through the phone.

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Speaker 1: I don't know the chain of custody that her phone

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Speaker 1: went through, but it has been revealed now that it

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Speaker 1: looks like there was a message coming from somebody that

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Speaker 1: appeared to be Brian Coburger. You're right, the direct message thing.

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Speaker 1: It happens to me. I'm I have an Instagram of

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Speaker 1: public one Laura Ingle TV, and if somebody messages me

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Speaker 1: from a post that I make or great report last

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Speaker 1: night or what you know, something, I will see it.

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Speaker 1: If I'm not following that person, it'll go to this

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Speaker 1: kind of envelope that I forget about. So there's sometimes

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Speaker 1: I'll go, oh, yeah, I need to look at that.

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Speaker 1: You know, you need to accept the messages, and there'll

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Speaker 1: be a long string of you know, random stranger saying

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Speaker 1: things and sometimes I don't see it, and then you

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Speaker 1: can either accept that message, you can delete that message.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes they're creepy messages, as we all know being on Instagram.

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Speaker 1: So there is a very big chance that she or

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Speaker 1: he whichever victims was didn't see those messages because there

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Speaker 1: wasn't a reply. According to the source. I've got so

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Speaker 1: many awesome experts. Did you just hear everything? Laura Angle

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Speaker 1: just said she knows every minute detail of this case

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Speaker 1: and she can deliver it in a way that it

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Speaker 1: all makes sense. Before I go out to digital forensics

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Speaker 1: examiner Giovanni Massucchi Cheryl McCollum, Laura Ingle says something that

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Speaker 1: really perts my ears up, and that while she mentioned

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Speaker 1: chain of custody, the phone guys with me. Cheryl McCollum

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Speaker 1: a forensics expert and found her of the Cold Case

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Speaker 1: Research Institute. You can find her at Coldcase crimes dot org. Oh,

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Speaker 1: and she's a star of a hit new series. It's

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Speaker 1: a podcast called Zone seven. Can you hurry up with

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Speaker 1: some more podcast? Cheryl? This once a week business is

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Speaker 1: not doing it for me anymore, Cheryl. Chain of custody

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Speaker 1: that Laura Ingle just said, really, you know, with all

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Speaker 1: other evidence, you have to have a chain of custody.

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Speaker 1: Here's a good example, Cheryl McCollum, I was prosecuting a

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Speaker 1: serial killer and I could get him for sure on

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Speaker 1: one murder of a Jane Doe so I went for that.

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Speaker 1: I left everything else out because it wasn't as strong,

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Speaker 1: and I didn't want to dilute my strong murder case

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Speaker 1: with some very weak evidence in other victims' cases. So

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Speaker 1: I went forward and I had an awesome homicide detective. Well,

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Speaker 1: listen to this. He gets the DNA from the defendant,

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Speaker 1: takes to the crime lab, and then listen to this.

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Speaker 1: You might need to sit down everybody about I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Three weeks before trial, I get a call from the

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Speaker 1: crime lab that says, who brought this over? It's not signed?

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Speaker 1: Oh oh, I just gave myself chills, which means he

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Speaker 1: did everything right, but he forgot to put the He

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Speaker 1: some evidence tape over it and signed his name in

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Speaker 1: the date and time, which means it broke the chain.

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Speaker 1: The chain of custom means if you don't have every

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Speaker 1: minute accounted for the piece of evidence from the time

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Speaker 1: police find it till the time it's presented to a jury,

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Speaker 1: then the chain has been broken and it will not

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Speaker 1: come into evidence. It can't be corroborated. So this is

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Speaker 1: what I did. Just the end of that story, I

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Speaker 1: still have time under discovery. I ran and you recall

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Speaker 1: my personal detective Ernest Denise Smith when you ran. We

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Speaker 1: spent in that old County issue Crown Victoria to the

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Speaker 1: Fuller County jail. I had the defendant pulled out. I

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Speaker 1: stared at him the entire time through a glass wall,

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Speaker 1: and I watched the nurse take his DNA. I watched

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Speaker 1: her put that in a sealed envelope. Who she gave

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Speaker 1: it to Ernest, He signed it. He came and got

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Speaker 1: in the car with me. Of course, we always fought

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Speaker 1: over who's going to drive. I let him drive, because

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Speaker 1: you know how men are control freaks. I let them

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Speaker 1: drive to the crime lab. We walked it in together,

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Speaker 1: and we handed it not just to the receptionist, who's awesome,

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Speaker 1: but to the scientist. We redid the DNA on a

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Speaker 1: rush order in time to hand it over to the

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Speaker 1: defense prior to trial, just in the nick of time. Oh,

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Speaker 1: dear Lord in Heaven, can you even imagine, Cheryl? So no,

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Speaker 1: That's why I know it makes me very anxious to

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Speaker 1: even tell that story. But Laura Ingle said, chain of

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Speaker 1: custody on the phone. But with a phone, Cheryl, do

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Speaker 1: we need the actual phone or can we go into

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Speaker 1: the iCloud? Well, it's gonna be both. I mean, you've

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Speaker 1: got a couple of things going on here. The phone

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Speaker 1: is going to be paramount for me as far as

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Speaker 1: his phone. Let's start with the accused first, his searches,

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Speaker 1: his pains, and who he communicated with, whether or not

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Speaker 1: they communicated back, because we're not talking about what they knew.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about what he knew and what he did. Then,

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Speaker 1: when you've got the victims phones again, you're going to

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Speaker 1: be able to see any communication between them. And I

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Speaker 1: want to start even if there is a stalker, because

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Speaker 1: remember Kaylee told people she had a stalker. Her daddy

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Speaker 1: said she had a stalker. The guy the vague store

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Speaker 1: said they were talking about her having a stalker. So

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Speaker 1: did she ever text that to anybody? Did she ever say, hey, Mattie,

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Speaker 1: y'all come here, this guy's here again, or I feel

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Speaker 1: like I'm being just try to get the bus back

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Speaker 1: in the middle of the road. Cheryl McCollum say, you

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Speaker 1: have so much information, and that beautiful head of yours

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Speaker 1: nice way of saying, I'm talking about him dming one

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Speaker 1: or more of the four victims, and they're gonna be

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Speaker 1: able to tell that from that angle, said China custody.

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Speaker 1: Giovanni Massuchi, Senior Digital forensic Examiner, Giovanni, thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us. Giovanni, I like Cheryl, I want to

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Speaker 1: hand a phone over to the expert you in court

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Speaker 1: and say tell me everything. But what if the chain

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Speaker 1: has been broken China custody? Can't you pull everything down

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Speaker 1: from the iCloud? Not everything? I want to have the

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Speaker 1: actual phone. Okay, that's not at all what I wanted

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Speaker 1: you to say, but go ahead. I'm sitting down and

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Speaker 1: may need to lay down from the US. Go ahead, Giovanni. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you can pull a lot of data. It depends what's

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Speaker 1: being backed up off the phone. So that's where the

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Speaker 1: issue is because not everybody puts everything in NYE cloud.

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Speaker 1: You know, I never select anything. I just assume everything's

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Speaker 1: going to an iCloud. No, no, there's some default. But

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Speaker 1: if you want additional data like your social media, if

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Speaker 1: you want text message to any type of communications phone

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Speaker 1: data going to be backed up, basically have to click

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Speaker 1: that in there under your general section under services. But

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Speaker 1: um yeah, it doesn't all go up there. So you

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Speaker 1: know the befit have the actual phone now having the

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Speaker 1: phone of the victims The tools now are so advanced

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Speaker 1: and they can incorporate they can adjust all these phones

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Speaker 1: at once into a digital intelligence of solution and we'll

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Speaker 1: alude they will quarterly and grab. Okay, yeah, you're way

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Speaker 1: way I need a war room for this. Okay, my

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Speaker 1: little row charts are now. Just slow down just a

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Speaker 1: little bit, go back with three sentences? What with me,

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Speaker 1: Giovanni Massuchi And it sounds like Laura Angele and Cheryl

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Speaker 1: McCollum are correct. We are gonna need the actual phone.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna have to show the chain, and we're gonna

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Speaker 1: have to if we can't show the China custody, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna have to show that those dms were sent before

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Speaker 1: the parents got the phone something like that. Okay, yeah, correct,

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Speaker 1: And so they can pull that data from the phone.

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Speaker 1: The frontic tools are sophisticated up now that they can

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Speaker 1: pull the Instagram data from the victim and then correlate

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Speaker 1: it with them the defendant, And so that's that's going

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Speaker 1: to be important. But I'm sure they're withholding other data

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Speaker 1: as well. What do you mean by that? You can't

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Speaker 1: just drop a little bomb like that on me? You're sure?

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Speaker 1: And therewithholding other data as well. What do you mean

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Speaker 1: by that? You know, I consult the federal government on forensics,

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Speaker 1: and so you know, they can't reveal all their cards yet.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure there's because in discovery that will all come

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Speaker 1: out because the defense has the right to get, um,

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Speaker 1: whatever's being discovered, especially in how they're asking for it

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Speaker 1: and so um. You know, typically as they're putting a

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Speaker 1: case together, they're going to have data that they'll be

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Speaker 1: able to have to share eventually. But I'm sure there's

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Speaker 1: more data that they're compiling off both the victims and

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Speaker 1: correlating and also off the defended stones And it's a broadcast.

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Speaker 1: It is a process, and you've got to handle hand

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Speaker 1: everything over to the defense. Under a seminal US Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court case Brady versus Maryland, I went all the way

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Speaker 1: to the the Supreme Court, and bottom line, you have to

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Speaker 1: hand over scientific evidence, all of it good or bad

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Speaker 1: for the state. That includes DNA, fingerprints, fiber analysis, you

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Speaker 1: name it, plus electronics, anything that has to be analyzed

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Speaker 1: by a scientist or a technician, fingerprints, the whole shebet,

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Speaker 1: hair evidence, mitochondrial blah blah blah. All has to be

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Speaker 1: handed over all defended statements, all the witnesses you're going

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Speaker 1: to bring on, and possibly a summary of their testimony.

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Speaker 1: Everything you've gotten, it is exculpatory, has to be handed

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Speaker 1: over ahead of time. You might as well just give

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Speaker 1: the defense the whole file so it can never be

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Speaker 1: said you withheld anything crime stories with Nancy Grace. So, guys,

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Speaker 1: if if this is true the reports that he had

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Speaker 1: been DM in direct messaging one or more of the

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Speaker 1: four victims. Did he know that this weekend was the

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Speaker 1: weekend that Kelly Gonsolvis was coming back to the house.

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Speaker 1: She had already moved out, but she had a new

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Speaker 1: vehicle and she wanted to come back, go to a

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Speaker 1: party that was going to be held that weekend, and

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Speaker 1: show her best friend Maddie her new car. They've been

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Speaker 1: best friend stance sixth grade. Was he following her online?

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Speaker 1: Did he see that she was coming back home? Or

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Speaker 1: had this day the date of the martyr has been

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Speaker 1: long preplanned by Brian Coburger Take a listen again to

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Speaker 1: our friend Dave matt acrime online dot com. Kayley Gonzolvez

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Speaker 1: had already moved out of the home where she and

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Speaker 1: three other students were brutally murdered, but tragically returned to

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Speaker 1: Moscow to visit her best friend that weekend. Kayley's parents

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Speaker 1: said that the twenty one year old had recently left

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Speaker 1: the student rental property on King Rhode, Moscow ahead of

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Speaker 1: her upcoming graduation. That December, Anna moved to Austin, Texas

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Speaker 1: for a new job at a tech firm. On the

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Speaker 1: weekend of November twelfth, she decided to go back to

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Speaker 1: the college town to visit her best friend and show

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Speaker 1: Maddie the range Rover she had saved up four and bought.

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Speaker 1: The two young women had been inseparable since meeting in

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Speaker 1: the sixth grade. They died together in the same bed

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Speaker 1: on the same night. Oh my hand away, He just

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Speaker 1: said that. So what do you think, Laura Angel wasn't

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Speaker 1: a matter of wrong play strong time somehow, I don't

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Speaker 1: think so. I think that he had planned this date

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Speaker 1: for a long time. I mean, there's obviously no way

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Speaker 1: to know exactly, but the fact that she was not

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Speaker 1: supposed to be there, she was obviously all of the

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Speaker 1: victims where were very public with their movements, plans, announcements,

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Speaker 1: partying on their instagrams, so one could you know theorize

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Speaker 1: that Brian Coburger might have known that she had left,

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Speaker 1: but you know, is it fair to say that he

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Speaker 1: would know that she was coming back. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if there was a post because I don't know if

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Speaker 1: her accounts them. There seems to be a mimicked account

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Speaker 1: now online of Instagram with her, but I don't know

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Speaker 1: that she ever wrote I'm going back to Moscow this

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Speaker 1: weekend to show my best friend in the car. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if there was that kind of detail, but

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Speaker 1: it could be wrong place, wrong time, or he spotted

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Speaker 1: her that night out at the Corner Club and this

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Speaker 1: is the night I'm going to do it, And you know,

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Speaker 1: we just don't know that part. But it is really

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Speaker 1: interesting to think about what was going on in that house.

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Speaker 1: And another thing I want to bring up, and I

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Speaker 1: want to kick this around with everybody here, that there

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Speaker 1: have been specials, right, we all watch each other, we

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Speaker 1: all watch other networks and get tidbits, like you're playing

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Speaker 1: of these clips. I watched one of the long form

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Speaker 1: specials this last weekend, and I went back and I

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Speaker 1: watched a part of it three times last night to

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Speaker 1: make sure I heard it correctly. There was a network

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Speaker 1: that reported that there was a party on Friday night

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Speaker 1: at that house, that there was a party that went

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Speaker 1: from Friday night into Saturday morning, and that there were reported,

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Speaker 1: according to some kids, maybe up to one hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty people in that house the night before the murders.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that I've heard that before, and I

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Speaker 1: don't know if that's correct. Those are what sources had

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Speaker 1: told NBC. I'm wondering if anybody because that Japan well

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Speaker 1: a little if it's true. On social media, if you

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Speaker 1: have friends, they're going to discuss who might show up

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Speaker 1: and not might not show up. And certainly, if you're

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Speaker 1: monitoring the social media connections to these individuals, you're likely

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Speaker 1: to generate a whole bunch of intelligence. I would have

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Speaker 1: loved to have that when I was an FBI agent,

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Speaker 1: so that I can listen and see what people are doing.

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Speaker 1: We had to interview hundreds of people to develop that

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Speaker 1: same body of information that now is available in an

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Speaker 1: instant on the Internet. Straight out to Chris mcdutna joining me,

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Speaker 1: Director the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective. I found

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Speaker 1: him on YouTube. He's a host of the Interview Room.

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Speaker 1: Chris has combed over the area surrounding the crime scene

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Speaker 1: with the fine tooth. Come Chris, jump in. Tell me

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Speaker 1: what you think about what you're hearing, you know, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: I think rather than us focusing as we have been

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out, not necessarily us, but everybody on

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Speaker 1: this case, what a motive is, I think we're overlooking

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Speaker 1: what is signature ish. And here's what I mean by that.

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Speaker 1: The forensical or the forensic digital footprint that this guy

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Speaker 1: is leaving is revealing a great deal about his personality.

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Speaker 1: And you want us take this information and then look

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Speaker 1: back as to what this guy has been doing pre engining.

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Speaker 1: I do believe it will emerge that this guy has

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Speaker 1: had many weird encounters with women and probably has underlining fetishes,

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Speaker 1: including potentially a variety of the things that he's engaged

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Speaker 1: in over the years. Chris mcdonnald, I don't think there's

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Speaker 1: any way you could be more correct, And that is

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Speaker 1: why we have doctor Bethany Marshall, the only person on

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Speaker 1: the panelment hasn't weighed in yet, but I was saving

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Speaker 1: her for something special. Doctor Bethany, get ready take us

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Speaker 1: to what our friends at ABC say. The man accused

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Speaker 1: of murdering four University of Idaho students reportedly made chilling

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Speaker 1: comments about his mental health as a teenager. A person

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Speaker 1: who knows Brian Koberger tells ABC News he is extremely confident.

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Speaker 1: Coburger is the author of post in a forum for

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Speaker 1: people battling visual snow syndrome. Visual Snow is a rare

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Speaker 1: disorder that affects sight. Doctors say patients often see what

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Speaker 1: looks like TV static in their vision. Headaches and ringing

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Speaker 1: in the ears is another side effect, along with depression

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Speaker 1: and anxiety. Some patients might notice this coming on after

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Speaker 1: an event like a head injury or a really severe

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Speaker 1: infection or illness, so it's not just the visual snow syndrome.

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Speaker 1: Chat forum Coburger participated in There's something Else, Doctor Bethany,

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Speaker 1: I'm coming at you with both guns of blazing. Take

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Speaker 1: a listen to this. New York Times reporter Nicholas Buggle

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Speaker 1: borrows on Our Friends over at CNN. It begins with

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Speaker 1: these posts on a forum website when he's about sixteen

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Speaker 1: years old, and he's talking about feeling a range of

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Speaker 1: men sole health conditions or problems with his life. He

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Speaker 1: talks about not being able to feel emotions feeling like

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Speaker 1: he's detached from the world, and that when he hugs

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Speaker 1: his own family, he sees nothing. He also described looking

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Speaker 1: at his life and going through the emotions like it's

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Speaker 1: a video game, and he's really hard on himself, saying

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Speaker 1: he feels worthless, that he's a jerk to people in

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Speaker 1: his life and doesn't feel bad about it afterwards. Wow,

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Speaker 1: I've got some quotes of what this guy posted, and

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Speaker 1: they are listen to this Bethany. I feel like an

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Speaker 1: organic sack of meat. Remember he's a rabid vegan. I

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Speaker 1: feel like an organic sack of meat with no self worth,

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Speaker 1: he allegedly wrote on tap talk a mental health for him,

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Speaker 1: and that was at age sixteen. As I hug my family,

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Speaker 1: I look in their faces, I see nothing. It's like

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at a video game but less. Nothing I

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Speaker 1: do is enjoyable. I'm blank. I have no opinion, I

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Speaker 1: have no emotion. Nothing. Can you relate well? No, And

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Speaker 1: another he boasted he could do whatever I want with

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Speaker 1: little remorse. Also, I only used heroin when I was

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Speaker 1: in a deep suicidal state. Hit it. This backs up

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Speaker 1: and supports what we know about sociopaths. So brain scans

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Speaker 1: of sociopaths reveal that the part of the brain that

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Speaker 1: is responsible for remorse, for attachment, for love, for excitement,

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Speaker 1: these parts of the brain do not light up on

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Speaker 1: brain scans. In fact, even the part of the brain

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Speaker 1: that's responsible for impulse control, the prefrontal cortex, that there's

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Speaker 1: bundling of white material in that part of the brain,

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Speaker 1: meaning it's not very active. So this is a wonderful

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Speaker 1: opportunity to see and to hear a sociopath right about

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Speaker 1: what we already know from brain scans. Now, Nancy, you

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Speaker 1: and I have talked many times about the fact that

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Speaker 1: sociopaths are empty, They have low levels of excitement, they

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Speaker 1: have internal deadness, and that's why they're prone to this

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Speaker 1: thrill seeking behavior. Now there's this other post that really

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Speaker 1: grabbed my attention. He explains. He writes, I'm no longer

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Speaker 1: the healthy, blonde haired boy with blue eyes, and in

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Speaker 1: a few years something about I have darker hair and

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Speaker 1: darker eyes, half the body weight. So he's writing about

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00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 1: his perception of himself, and it reminds me of a

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00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 1: patient I saw many years ago who was a pedophile.

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Speaker 1: He was later caught, obviously, then taken out of my practice.

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Speaker 1: But he was what we called auto erotic, and that

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Speaker 1: means that his sexual interest was directed back against himself.

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Speaker 1: He would watch himself masturbate in the mirror, and he

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00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 1: would cut his hair in the mirror. He would rub

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00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 1: oil on himself in the mirror, so that sexual excitement

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00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 1: was generated by thinking about as much as I would

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Speaker 1: like to hear more about your patient rubbing oil on himself.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how he got to that point. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's just these self referential texts are weird. I'm no

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Speaker 1: longer the healthy, blonde haired boy with blue eyes I had.

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Speaker 1: As you extrapolite from that to your pedophile client rubbing

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Speaker 1: oil on himself. You know what? Don't need to know that?

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friends at ABC. In one

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Speaker 1: post in twenty eleven, when Koburger would have been seventeen

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Speaker 1: years old, a question was posed to other people in

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Speaker 1: the visual Snow forum, asking am I the only one

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00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 1: who experiences depression, crazy thoughts, no emotion, the illusions of grandeur.

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Speaker 1: The post ends saying he felt that he can do

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Speaker 1: whatever I want with little remorse, and another post in

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Speaker 1: the forum later that year, the same author writes, I

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Speaker 1: simply don't want to live anymore. People say these are

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Speaker 1: supposed to be the years I enjoy and cherish. Well,

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Speaker 1: I can't say I will cherish these days. Okay, doctor Bethany.

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00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 1: Without going back to your pedophile client rubbing oil on

428
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 1: himself from the mirror, can you analyze that, Well, it's

429
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 1: not fun to be a sociopath. We think of them

430
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 1: as being driven by this lura need for excitement, and

431
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: they love all the stocking. And yes there is fetishized

432
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 1: sexual interest in the stocking. But he describes being sociopathic

433
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: is extremely disturbing. He's removed from the world. He's not

434
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: attached to other people. So wheat Nancy. We're wired for attachment.

435
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 1: That's how we survived the species. People who are in

436
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,160
Speaker 1: good mental healthcare, they love, they have remorse. They attached

437
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: and he finds its extremely disturbing to not be attached.

438
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 1: And so let's think about his attachment is weird attachment

439
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:42,719
Speaker 1: to these students and especially to Kaylee. All it takes

440
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: is a tiny sliver of an interaction to form an

441
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: obsession between the stoker and a victim that come from

442
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 1: you or Kyberger sending the DMS alright messages but never

443
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 1: getting every spot, just the thrill of sending them and

444
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 1: the anger or the frustration of no response. Is that

445
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: enough of an interaction? Yeah, it's both theoretical. What I

446
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: know about stalkers and what we're beginning to see is

447
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 1: that she didn't even respond to him, and all those

448
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 1: images out there, it could have just been seeing one

449
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: beautiful image. Look, we are attached to these victims by

450
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 1: looking at the images and reading the story because we're

451
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: wired for attachment. He attached just by like maybe seeing

452
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 1: even just a piece of clothing or something. Now, remember

453
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 1: what I've said about stalkers so many times on your show,

454
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 1: that they had the fantasy or the delusion that there's

455
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 1: a complete attachment system between them and the victim. Right, yes,

456
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 1: even though there is none. So every time he was

457
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: not responded to, the rejection deepened and deepened and deepened,

458
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 1: along with the rage and the desire to seek vengeance

459
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 1: or to punish her for not responding to him. If

460
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: Laura Ingle and I just wanted to as we're talking

461
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 1: about these writings and the things that he wrote that

462
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 1: are so traumatic, if true, this is him. Remember he

463
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: had two older sisters, Amanda and Melissa. Right, we grew

464
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 1: up with. Amanda is a licensed counselor, and she is

465
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:17,360
Speaker 1: a registered behavioral technician. Melissa works in mental health. She's

466
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 1: a mental health therapist in New Jersey working in anxiety,

467
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: trauma WorkStress, emotion regulation, and career counseling. So those are

468
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: his two siblings. And I just wanted to point that

469
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: out because every time I hear these words that he

470
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: wrote allegedly, I keep thinking about, you know, whenever we

471
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 1: tell these stories and we talk about these crimes. Oh,

472
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: only somebody knew if they monitored him. And I keep

473
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 1: thinking about the sisters. It's not their fault, of course,

474
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: but it's just interesting that that's what they do. It

475
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: really is. I wonder if he had heard any of

476
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: that lingo, the psychological lingo from the sisters describing their

477
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: studies or their jobs. Guys, listen now to our friend

478
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: Moa Lingy at GM. Newly uncovered social media posts painting

479
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 1: a clearer picture of who Brian Koburger was as a

480
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: teen years before he was charged with killing four University

481
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: of Idaho college students. The New York Times first reporting

482
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: on posts believed to be written by Koburger between two

483
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: thousand and nine and two twelve, where he shared struggles

484
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 1: with mental health and thoughts of suicide. Koburger writing in

485
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: two eleven, as I hug my family, I look into

486
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 1: their faces, I see nothing. It is like I'm looking

487
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 1: at a video game, but less. Koburger also writing he

488
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: experienced depression, a constant thought of suicide, crazy thoughts and

489
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 1: delusions of grander, saying, I feel no emotion, and along

490
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: with the depersonalization, I can say and do whatever I

491
00:29:41,480 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 1: want with little remorse. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Your

492
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: story back out to Giovanni Massuchi, Senior digital forensic Examiner. Okay, Giovanni, Yes,

493
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: I've got a ton of things he allegedly posted, comments

494
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: he made They are really chilling in light of the

495
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: four murders. But how can I corroborate that this is

496
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 1: actually him posting these things? Well, they're going to do.

497
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: They're going to requests to these sites, these social media sites,

498
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 1: to grab that data. Now, depending on if how currenty

499
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: the social media posts work. They're all sore when he

500
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: was sixteen. But a lot of these sites they do

501
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: back up the data and so law enforcement can request this.

502
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: People don't realize it, but they do back up the

503
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: data and why does that show your ipay address, the

504
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: person that was sending them, which computer they were using,

505
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: email address that attached to it, any information that's required

506
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: by that social media site to set up that account,

507
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: which could have the right back to bohand and so

508
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 1: that would correlate information that way, but also on anything

509
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: that he's posted as well up to current as wall.

510
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 1: But I'm the old old data. They can pull that

511
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: data and corroborate it with Nancy. Can I jump in?

512
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: You mentioned war room a second ago, and you know

513
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: that's how you and I would have worked this case.

514
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: We would put this up on the wall. And one

515
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 1: thing that I would want to know is his phone

516
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: pings and how that correlates with their social media post specifically, now,

517
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,959
Speaker 1: I would want to know when he made these you know,

518
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 1: instant messages, if it's him, when he got no response,

519
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 1: did he take a drive over to eleven twenty two

520
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: King Road, and again looking at his phone pings. The

521
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: other things I would want to put up on the

522
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: wall is what these people are saying. When Kaylee first

523
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,719
Speaker 1: mentioned she had a stalker when the vape store, you

524
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: know manager when they went in there and she was

525
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: talking about the you know stalker, right, I would want

526
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: videotape from the Corner Club, the last place they were

527
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: before going to the food truble. I agree, but I

528
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: still contend that he had this plan for a very

529
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 1: very long time, hence the at least twelve prior times

530
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 1: he had been near the location. Now here's another thing.

531
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: We're looking at all his deep dark secrets that he

532
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: posted on chat forums, but he can appear to be

533
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: somewhat normal. Take a list to our thirty three thirty five. Now,

534
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 1: this is a neighbor who does not want to be identified.

535
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: He does not want to go down in history as

536
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 1: being friend of Bryan Coburger's. But this is also a

537
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: neighbor that is married. And after the neighbor had tried

538
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 1: to do a few things with Coburger at Coburger's father's

539
00:32:54,920 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: assistant Van, Coburger's dad dropped moved Coburger too, Pullman nine

540
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 1: miles from the murder scene. The father approached at least

541
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: one neighbor and said, look, can you be his friend?

542
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: He has a hard time meeting people, basically setting up

543
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: a playdate for Coburger. That said the wife had a

544
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: sixth sense and she said no more, it cannot come

545
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: back to our place. Do not invite him for dinner,

546
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: And when asked, she couldn't say why. She just didn't

547
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: want him around. Now take a listen to this text

548
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 1: Coburger sent to the friend. The last message I got

549
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: he said Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family. And

550
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: this was eleven days after Happy Thanksgiving, dating your family.

551
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: So not only did he go straight back to school

552
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: like nothing was wrong, he was texting neighbors Happy Thanksgiving

553
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: as if everything were perfectly normal. But I want you

554
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: to hear what criminology professor Birmingham City University David Wilson

555
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 1: has to say in our cut three three seven. Criminology

556
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 1: is it the cause or an effect? And it is

557
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:13,879
Speaker 1: simply not pathological to want to study criminal mind. That's

558
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: what I do. It would be pathological to want to

559
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:22,839
Speaker 1: study the criminal mind to understand something about yourself, and

560
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: that indeed is what is being argued in the probable

561
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: cause affidavit that in relation to Brian Coberger, I've taught

562
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 1: criminology students for about twenty five years and I would

563
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: say a handful of them have creeped me out. Okay,

564
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: I want you to hear more. I don't think it

565
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 1: was really laid out that clearly in the probable cause

566
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 1: for rest affidavit, but take a list to more in

567
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: our cut three forty. Well, I kind of felt now

568
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 1: this you might say, this is spurious, but because I

569
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 1: know the person that's been accused of this had studied

570
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:06,320
Speaker 1: under Kathleine Ramsland, who studied the BTK a serial killer

571
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: by the way, who are the background and criminal justice.

572
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 1: So there's another serial killer that has a background and

573
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: criminal justice. He kills a ten people in the nineteen seventies, eighties,

574
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 1: and nineties, and guess the first target of that man's

575
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 1: killing cycle was a group of four people, a family

576
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: of four in a house that he had never previously

577
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: had connections to. So there's a sense in which you've

578
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: got some eerie echoes going on here. Jerry McCollum, isn't

579
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 1: it true that Bryan Kroeberger also studied under Professor Ramsland? Yes? Absolutely,

580
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: what do you know? I just know he was in

581
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: several of her classes and studied under her, And you know,

582
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,439
Speaker 1: I'm certain that they had a working relationship of nothing else,

583
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: because the level that he was at in the master's program,

584
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 1: I mean, you get to know your students pretty well

585
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 1: at that level. You know, they are writing all the time,

586
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: they're researching all the time, they're discussing topics all the time.

587
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 1: So he was there and studying into her, No question

588
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 1: about it too. Laura Ingle, Senior correspondent, Fox Child. I've

589
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 1: been asked by many people whether Kyberger was assessed with

590
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy, because they have a lot of similarities. What

591
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 1: if anything do you know? You know there have been

592
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 1: reports of that. Well, obviously we know that he had

593
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 1: been studying what he had been studying for a very

594
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: long time, twenty eight years old. In these studies, we

595
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: have heard classmates say that there was some type of

596
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: connection in the sense of him being interested in him.

597
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: And we've heard, of course the studies of under that

598
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: professor that you just mentioned. But in terms of him

599
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 1: writing about having a connection with Ted Bundy and mimic him,

600
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: you know, wanting to be like him or anything like that,

601
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 1: I haven't heard anything like that, but I have heard

602
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 1: reports that he was interested in those types of people. Nancy,

603
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 1: if I could jump in about that, yes, okay, So

604
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 1: Brian Koberger is playing at being human. He's pretending to

605
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 1: be human. He's not human, he doesn't feel human. He

606
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: uses the word depersonalized. He pulled that out of a

607
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 1: textbook somewhere. He's sending, you know, happy things, getting messages

608
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,760
Speaker 1: to the neighbors who are clearly rejecting him. He's pretending

609
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 1: to be sociable. People like this. They don't. I know.

610
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: There's some report that said maybe he even had aspergers.

611
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: So this inability to relate to others, I think just

612
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 1: fueled the feeling of rejection and the rage he had.

613
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 1: But if there was a connection to Ted Bundy, I

614
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 1: would also think that he's trying to locate a sense

615
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 1: of himself in the people around him, kind of like, oh,

616
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 1: like like two year old at the fair? Am I

617
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 1: like the clown? Am I like the monkey? I mean?

618
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: Who am I most like? So that that's really what's

619
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: going on in all these strange behaviors. Interesting, Well, there's

620
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,919
Speaker 1: been another theory out there, guys. We just been hearing

621
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: David Wilson, criminology professor, speaking to this morning. There's also

622
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 1: another theory floating around that he intentionally left the knife

623
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 1: sheath with his DNA on it. I think that is wrong.

624
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 1: And the other night when I was driving through the dark,

625
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 1: Chris mcdonna, you know exactly where it is, his long

626
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: circuitous about the dick of an hour to get home

627
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:28,359
Speaker 1: when he reportedly left the crime scene. It's pitched dart,

628
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: there are no street lights, very hard to see, and

629
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 1: I've got twenty twenty vision. I just wonder along that

630
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 1: drive when it hit him. Oh my stars wears the

631
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 1: knife sheath. Yeah, and it is an interesting theory, but

632
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 1: I agree with you, Nancy, highly unlikely. No way. Okay,

633
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: let's get a vote on Now, what about a Dell Carson.

634
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 1: You agree with Chris mcdonna, You know I do. I

635
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 1: don't think he intentionally left it there. I think the

636
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 1: argument from the defense is that he was never there

637
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:05,320
Speaker 1: and somebody else got his fingerprint left argument, Laura Angle,

638
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 1: do you think you left it their own purpose? You know,

639
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 1: that's that's a great question. I personally don't think he did.

640
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: But just and just to go back, just to go

641
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: back really quickly about Ted Buddy. That is where we're

642
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 1: going to that search warrant, those search warrants when they

643
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: are released, when we find out what they found in

644
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: his apartment, what we when we find out what the

645
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: search history was in his computers. And remember all those

646
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 1: all those conversations from the neighbors. He was up late

647
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 1: at night, he was walking around, was he pacing, was

648
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: he thinking? What was he googling? You know, those are

649
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 1: the types of things that we will learn as we

650
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 1: get closer, as we get closer to that probable car.

651
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 1: I can't wait. I wonder if we'll find that before

652
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,760
Speaker 1: the preliminary hearing. I certainly hope. So, guys, we wait

653
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: as the evidence unfolds. Fancy Grace comes story, signing off,

654
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:52,720
Speaker 1: goodbye friend,