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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and welcome back to Coast to Coast. George Nori

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Speaker 1: with you along with John Gastell. His website is his name.

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Speaker 1: It's linked up at Coast to Coast dot com. We're

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Speaker 1: talking about his latest book, Dungeon Party. His other book,

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Speaker 1: of course, Gray Matters, we talked with him about several

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Speaker 1: months ago, and also Hope for Democracy. We're going to

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Speaker 1: take calls with John next hour, and if you're definitely

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Speaker 1: a gamer, check in with us. There was a scare

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Speaker 1: back in the eighties. Do you remember that one, John,

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Speaker 1: where Dungeons and Dragons may have had some things, some

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Speaker 1: messages popped into there. What was that all about? The

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Speaker 1: satanic panic? Ah, that's right, that's right. And it was

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Speaker 1: you know rock and roll music, right had had the

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Speaker 1: devil worked into the lyrics backwards, and Dungeons and Dragons

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Speaker 1: was teaching people to cast spells and dabble in the occult.

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Speaker 1: That was the charge. People panicked, though, they went crazy.

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Speaker 1: They did a little bit um, you know, in fairness,

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Speaker 1: I mean, Dungeons and Dragons absolutely has you know, devils

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Speaker 1: and witches and and all sorts of spirits and uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, pantheons from all over the world and from

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Speaker 1: all over history. So it really had all those creepy

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Speaker 1: crawley things in the game. But but it was just

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Speaker 1: a story. Um. But it was pretty scary to people

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Speaker 1: who looked at it and thought, oh my gosh, this

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Speaker 1: is actually telling people to become you know, sorcerers. Uh

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Speaker 1: and uh to you know, maybe play an evil character. Right,

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Speaker 1: that that was that was too much for some people.

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Speaker 1: Does the paranormal kind of ease into a lot of

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Speaker 1: these games? Oh? Absolutely, yeah. And and and you know

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Speaker 1: these games we're talking about, these fantasy role playing games

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Speaker 1: come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. There's dungeons

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Speaker 1: and dragons, which were we were just alluding to, but

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Speaker 1: there's now so many different ones. There's there's horror based ones,

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Speaker 1: and you know based in the world of HP Lovecraft,

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Speaker 1: there's there's Steve Punk, there's you know, you name it

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Speaker 1: as sci fi Western superhero. The paranormal can play a

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Speaker 1: huge role in these worlds. It just depends on how

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Speaker 1: the world is constructed. Right. If that's a normal part

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Speaker 1: of the world that people are playing in, well, then

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Speaker 1: all kinds of freaky and creepy things could happen and

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Speaker 1: it won't even surprise the characters in the game. They've

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Speaker 1: come a long way since the days of Pong, haven't they? Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know I Pong did you know threatened to take

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Speaker 1: over the world, that video games would be what gaming became,

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Speaker 1: But instead they just became another way to play games,

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Speaker 1: because the truth is we like to have lots of

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Speaker 1: different choices when it comes to playing games. So the

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Speaker 1: video games are now incredible, but the tabletop games and

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Speaker 1: the fantasy role playing games are better than ever. You're

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Speaker 1: a book, A Dungeon Party should be turned into a movie.

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Speaker 1: Any chances I have been contacted, We'll see what happens.

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Speaker 1: I do think it would make a fun story. I

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Speaker 1: do too, Yeah, it wouldn't be too expensive to produce.

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Speaker 1: But you know, the the audiobook right now is one

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Speaker 1: of the fun ways of accessing it. And the voice

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Speaker 1: of the audiobook is actually the voice of Victor Bevin,

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Speaker 1: who is has read lots of books by R. A. Salvatore,

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Speaker 1: an author who's written amazing fantasy stories that some of

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Speaker 1: which were based in the Forgotten Realms. A part of

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Speaker 1: the Dungeons and Dragons World, So it's fun to have

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Speaker 1: a familiar voice reading Dungeon Party. That was a real

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Speaker 1: treat to get him on board with these video games, John,

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Speaker 1: what is the demographic generally? Oh, it's incredibly diverse now.

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Speaker 1: I mean video games, right, have become such such a

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Speaker 1: deep part of our culture that they've even seeked into

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Speaker 1: the sporting world. Right. Esport is now a thing at

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Speaker 1: colleges and universities. Right, And in the age of Zoom, it's,

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the sports that is relatively robust.

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Speaker 1: So it's it's incredible how diverse the player base has become.

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Speaker 1: And that's true of other kinds of games too, like

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Speaker 1: like fantasy role playing and tabletop games that they reach

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Speaker 1: really across different cultural groups, genders and so on in

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Speaker 1: a way that wasn't always as true back in the

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Speaker 1: seventies and eighties. Um, but it's it's really nice to

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Speaker 1: see the diversity of people who, for instance, show up

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Speaker 1: at a gaming convention. I used to get a kick

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Speaker 1: out of flight simulator simulators back in the late eighties

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Speaker 1: and nineties. They must be incredible today, Oh, absolutely, Like

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Speaker 1: you're actually on a plane. They probably move you around

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Speaker 1: too in the chair. Well, I mean it says something

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Speaker 1: that the simulators are used for actual training purposes, and

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Speaker 1: the military uses games as well in training. There are

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Speaker 1: things you can learn and there's things you don't. But

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Speaker 1: it's funny to think that Sci Fi used to have,

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Speaker 1: you know, a common theme was that someone would become

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Speaker 1: an expert at some video game that was actually training

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Speaker 1: for you know, a real space confrontation. And now that's

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Speaker 1: that's that's real. I mean, the skills you learned using

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Speaker 1: an Xbox controller, you may be using that very same

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Speaker 1: controller when you control a drone. So and you may

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Speaker 1: never have visual physical contact with the world. You may

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Speaker 1: experience it all through a monitor, not unlike playing of

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Speaker 1: video games. That's a little scary, but that has already

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Speaker 1: come to pass. Tell us about the characters you developed

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Speaker 1: for Dungeon Party, Well, the point was to have conflict, right,

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Speaker 1: Every story needs to have conflict, and I want people

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Speaker 1: who aren't just gamers, but people who are curious about gamers,

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Speaker 1: maybe they're married to one, to have different points of view.

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Speaker 1: So the characters give you the perspective of you know,

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Speaker 1: veteran gamers, people who've been doing it a long time

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Speaker 1: and have very strong opinions about how games should be played,

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Speaker 1: and some new gamers, right, a couple players who don't

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Speaker 1: have as much experience. One in particular is just a

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Speaker 1: high school kid, and you know, I was worried about

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Speaker 1: the game is going to damage her reputation. That's can

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Speaker 1: still be a thing. So all kinds of different perspectives.

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Speaker 1: They have different professions of one of them is in

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Speaker 1: medicine and other ones in insurance, which is so what

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Speaker 1: I really think some of these games teach you is

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Speaker 1: statistical skills and so on. That the players really just

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Speaker 1: have different different lives, and those different lives and their

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Speaker 1: different concerns about the world are expressed in the game,

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Speaker 1: and their anxieties come through and the characters they choose

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Speaker 1: to play and how they play them. What have the

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Speaker 1: smartphones done for the gaming industry, Well, they've created a

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Speaker 1: whole other platform for games, haven't they. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you can play amazing games on your phone that previously

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Speaker 1: we're inconceivable for video games, but they can actually be

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Speaker 1: a neat thing to enhance even your experience playing a

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Speaker 1: tabletop game or now playing it on Zoom. And that

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Speaker 1: it's like the tricorder in Star Trek right. It's a

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Speaker 1: little handy references tool, so you may not have to

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Speaker 1: look something up in a book. You can you know,

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Speaker 1: you don't even have to bring a set of dice

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Speaker 1: to the table. You can just use your phone to

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Speaker 1: roll the dice for you. So it's fun how it

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Speaker 1: can be an accessory to other games, but it also

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Speaker 1: obviously provides you games right on it. And we were

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Speaker 1: talking before the break John about how you can play

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Speaker 1: video games with people who aren't even next to you,

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Speaker 1: hundreds and thousands of miles away, absolutely, and you can

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Speaker 1: actually develop pretty strong relationships with them. One of the

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Speaker 1: things Dungeon Party is about is about the bonds that

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Speaker 1: gamers feel towards each other. And that's not just true

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Speaker 1: if people sitting around the table, though that's incredibly important.

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Speaker 1: It also happens with people who commit themselves to online

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Speaker 1: games like Grand Theft Auto or Red Dead Redemption. They'll

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Speaker 1: play for hours on end and make really strong bonds

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Speaker 1: with people who we otherwise might think are complete strangers

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Speaker 1: to them. How big is the gaming industry money wise, Well,

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Speaker 1: it's bigger than the moon. The industry right the opening

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Speaker 1: weekend of passed up the movie industry, Wow, absolutely it's huge,

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Speaker 1: and that's just video games. So games in general have

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Speaker 1: become an incredibly lucrative industry, and it again it's fun

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Speaker 1: to see though, that it's not just dominated by big companies.

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Speaker 1: This is especially true of tabletop games, where again things

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Speaker 1: like Kickstarter have made it possible for you to come

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Speaker 1: up with a new idea, George and say, you know what,

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Speaker 1: I want to Coast to Coast Insider game, and we're

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Speaker 1: going to explore all the paranormal themes on the show

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Speaker 1: and that's going to be the game. Well, if you

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Speaker 1: invent it and enough people back you, you can make

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Speaker 1: your game, and if people enjoy it, they'll play it,

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Speaker 1: and then more people will play it. And that just

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Speaker 1: wasn't true in the past. You really had to go

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Speaker 1: through brokers like agents to get one of the few

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Speaker 1: game companies to consider publishing your game. But that's now

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Speaker 1: broken through, and so the creativity that that's unleashed is incredible. Sure,

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Speaker 1: a lot of bad games are out there now as

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Speaker 1: a result, but some spectacular ones are out there now

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Speaker 1: that never would have been published. The radio host gets

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Speaker 1: abducted by aliens and take beamed up to a spaceship.

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Speaker 1: See see how now you're on a roll. You've got

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Speaker 1: the spirit of it. Yeah, that's all it takes, and

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Speaker 1: off you go. That's right. Well, I'm sure your listeners

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Speaker 1: will contribute a lot of ideas of this. Has COVID

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Speaker 1: increased the gaming industry? People are stuck at home? Well,

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Speaker 1: yes and no. There is the experience of gathering your

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Speaker 1: friends over to sit around the table, and in general

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Speaker 1: that's not a great idea right now. But families that

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Speaker 1: are obviously in a house together now do have an

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Speaker 1: incentive to maybe try a few new things. You know,

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Speaker 1: you've tried that puzzle enough times, let's break out a

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Speaker 1: new board game. So board game sales are robust and

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Speaker 1: a lot of the games that are really geared towards

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Speaker 1: um diverse ages are working really well for families. And

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Speaker 1: you know what, one of the very best cooperative board

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Speaker 1: games out there is having a little too much of

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Speaker 1: a moment. It's called Pandemic and the players each play

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Speaker 1: different specialized roles trying to battle the spread of disease

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Speaker 1: outbreaks around the world. And did that come before or after?

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Speaker 1: COVID came long before. In fact, the Centers for Disease

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Speaker 1: Control actually gave some input to the game itself. In

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Speaker 1: this very well conceived game, it's it's a very easy

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Speaker 1: game to learn, but you can set the level of difficulty.

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Speaker 1: But the point is that it's cooperative, that your family

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Speaker 1: can sit around the table and you know, have the

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Speaker 1: different roles specialists each play their part in potentially thwarting

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Speaker 1: the spread of some terrible disease. And there's other games

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Speaker 1: like that. But the whole idea of a cooperative game

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Speaker 1: I think turns the idea of competitive gaming on its

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Speaker 1: head and says, you know, if the point is to

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Speaker 1: have fun, there's more than one way to have fun.

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Speaker 1: We're going to take calls with John Gastell next hour,

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Speaker 1: and if you're into gaming as well, check in with us.

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Speaker 1: Tell us what it's like, what are your favorite games,

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Speaker 1: and how many different titles are out there? There must

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Speaker 1: be thousands, I guess, John, absolutely, And you know what

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Speaker 1: I'm really looking forward to as callers are going to

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Speaker 1: tell us the roles that games have played in their lives.

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Speaker 1: That'll be fun to hear. I mean, do they take

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Speaker 1: this stuff seriously? Absolutely absolutely? I mean this can you

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Speaker 1: know think about it. Some of the people who really

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Speaker 1: commit themselves to these games sometimes they're trying to find

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Speaker 1: something that they have as their identity. You know, the

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Speaker 1: Coast to Coast insider is partly about being an insider,

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Speaker 1: right sure, well, yeah, absolutely, yeah. Well, for some people,

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Speaker 1: the games are what provide them that and they know

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Speaker 1: things that other people don't know. They have something very

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Speaker 1: special that's near and dear to them, and when they

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Speaker 1: get together with other people who play the game, it's

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Speaker 1: like nothing else in their lives. If you're a parent

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Speaker 1: and your child is playing games all the time, should

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Speaker 1: you be concerned? Well, it's never really all the time, right,

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Speaker 1: I would say, it's a question of how they're playing

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Speaker 1: the game and what they're getting out of the game.

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Speaker 1: My mom, bless her heart, she said to me one day,

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Speaker 1: you know what, you and your friends can play video

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Speaker 1: games as much as you want, as long as it's

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Speaker 1: one that you made. And where I wrote the worst

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Speaker 1: version of a popular arcade game at the time, and

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Speaker 1: we just played that thing to death on my little computer.

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Speaker 1: But you know, obviously I had to learn how to

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Speaker 1: code it. So I wrote the code, wrote the terrible game,

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Speaker 1: and we played it endlessly. You know that did not

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Speaker 1: upset mom. And I think games like these fantasy role

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Speaker 1: playing games. They're teaching you incredible things. Vocabulary, mathematics, science, art,

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Speaker 1: all these things get rolled into the game. And so

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Speaker 1: when I see people playing a game that is challenging

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Speaker 1: them and teaching them things and that don't even realize it,

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Speaker 1: knock yourself out. Just you know, make sure you get

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Speaker 1: decent grades, but have fun with your game. I worry

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Speaker 1: more about people who play games that are incredibly repetitive

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Speaker 1: and not very social, and that starts to look a

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Speaker 1: little more compulsive and less sort of enriching. John. Whatever

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Speaker 1: we hear are these tragedies of school shootings, and thank

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Speaker 1: god we haven't had one in a while. But one

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Speaker 1: of the first things that always comes up video games.

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Speaker 1: Video games. That's what people say. Is it conceivable that

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Speaker 1: video games contribute to creating that mindset and someone who

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Speaker 1: does that, Well, the evidence isn't out there. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's been studied to death, and the video games just

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Speaker 1: don't really have a robust effect on aggression and things

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Speaker 1: like that. It's really like so many things in our lives, right,

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Speaker 1: people do things for very different reasons and they get

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Speaker 1: very different things out of them. Part of what the

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Speaker 1: novel Dungeon Party is about is about how the very

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Speaker 1: same game that all these different people are playing is

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Speaker 1: having really different effects on them. For some people it's

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Speaker 1: very uplifting. For some it's therapeutic, but for some it

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Speaker 1: kind of it indulges maybe a darker part of their personality.

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Speaker 1: But was it really the game or was it the person?

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Speaker 1: And that's that's the way they found to express themselves.

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Speaker 1: And for some people, expressing that maybe darker part of

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Speaker 1: their personality through the game is frankly good for society

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Speaker 1: because it's a perfectly harmless place for that expression to

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Speaker 1: take to take place, and it doesn't have to happen

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Speaker 1: on the high school campus. Were you writing Dungeon Party

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Speaker 1: when you were writing Gray Matters, because it came out

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Speaker 1: pretty darn fast. Well, I've been working on novels for

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Speaker 1: several years and I made a commitment to myself that

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't publish these books until a publisher thought they

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Speaker 1: were ready to go. And as it happened, John Hunt

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Speaker 1: publishing one of them both, and that you know, Dungeon

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Speaker 1: Party was the one they were most excited about. But

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Speaker 1: when they saw Gray Matters, they thought, you know what,

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Speaker 1: we got to get that out During the twenty twenty election,

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Speaker 1: so it came out first, and then they thought it

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Speaker 1: was funny that Dungeon Party would come out basically on Halloween.

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Speaker 1: So it has been a little st having two novels

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Speaker 1: this year, but hey, if I'm on coast to coast

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Speaker 1: talking about them, something must be something's working for you. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: How much research did you have to do for Dungeon

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Speaker 1: Party or did you already have a lot of that knowledge.

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Speaker 1: You know, I had a lot of firsthand experience playing

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Speaker 1: these games at different ages in my life, So when

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Speaker 1: I was writing the high school character, I was thinking

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Speaker 1: about that experience. When I wrote about the adults playing

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Speaker 1: the game, I was thinking about playing with contemporaries. And

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Speaker 1: at the same time, I found I did want to read.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to read more about games and about gaming

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Speaker 1: and to get back into the source material of different

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Speaker 1: fantasy role playing games. And that was actually really fun,

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Speaker 1: and I was frankly surprised to see how these games

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Speaker 1: had had really had a resurgence. You know, people George

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Speaker 1: now will not only just play this game, but they'll

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Speaker 1: just listen to podcasts for hours of other people playing

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Speaker 1: the game. They'll they'll watch TV shows or or Twitch

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Speaker 1: feeds of people just playing. And that's true not just

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Speaker 1: for video games but also for tabletop games. So there's

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Speaker 1: so many different ways now to experience these games. You

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Speaker 1: can even become a professional gamemaster. You can post games

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Speaker 1: for people and they'll pay you to do it again.

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Speaker 1: The world is so interconnected now that these games aren't

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Speaker 1: just happening in somebody's basement. They're kind of happening all

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Speaker 1: over the world in some cases, in many countries at

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Speaker 1: once a single game. Listen to more Coast to Coast

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Speaker 1: AM every weeknight at one am Eastern and go to

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Speaker 1: Coast to Coast am dot com for more