1 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: That's happening here. Ship. We didn't want it to. We 2 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:11,039 Speaker 1: were like, uh, it shouldn't happen here. That would be bad. 3 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: But now it is. And I'm Robert Evans. This is 4 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 1: the podcast about things are kind of falling apart and 5 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: maybe it would be good if they didn't fall apart, 6 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: or at least if while they were falling apart, we 7 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: did something that was better than the thing that fell apart. Anyway, Hi, everybody, 8 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: this is a podcast. I'm Robert Evans. As you can 9 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: note from this horrible introduction, which was was incompetently done, 10 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:39,959 Speaker 1: half acidly done. Uh, subsequent weeks of the show are 11 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: going to be very different from the first week. We 12 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 1: started off with five very scripted episodes. My vision kind 13 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: of at the start of this was that first week 14 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: of this, the first five episodes would be ever green, 15 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 1: so that when we have new people over the coming 16 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: months and years, we can say, hey, if you want 17 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: to know what we're about, listen to episodes one through five. 18 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: It lays out our philosophy what this show is, kind 19 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: of gives you the background we think you need to 20 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: understand where we are in the world right now. Um, 21 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: but of course this is a daily show. I'm not 22 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: going to be writing a ten thousand words script every 23 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: single day, because that would literally be writing a novel 24 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 1: length work every week, and that would very quickly drive 25 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: me to drink. And also I don't think would be 26 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: as interesting as trying to be nimble. Um. So, this 27 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: week we're gonna try to give you kind of an 28 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: idea of what most of the weeks of the show 29 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: will be like. It's going to be a mix of 30 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 1: kind of breaking news coverage of some ongoing stories, speculation, interviews, 31 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: um so with I don't know, probably a little bit 32 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: of further ado. I would like to introduce I would 33 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: like to start this, this episode, this show, this beautiful 34 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: thing or terrible thing, whatever it winds up being either 35 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: beautiful or terrible, by introducing my team, the people who 36 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: actually do the most of the work on this while 37 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: I extract their surplus value and turn it into fancy liquors. 38 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: First off is Sophie Lichterman. Uh, Sophie, you exist, Hi? Apparently, Hey, 39 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: you're my executive producer. It's your job to make sure 40 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,359 Speaker 1: that I do things like turn on my computer, um, 41 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: and that we have guests. Uh. Next up is Garrison 42 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: Davis Garrison, What what are you? That's a good question. Um, 43 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: I read books and articles and occasionally go to places 44 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: to learn about different resistance movements. I guess yeah, yeah. 45 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: We we actually sent you out to an Earth First 46 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 1: gathering a couple of weeks ago, and we're gonna have 47 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: some episodes about your experiences there in the very near future, 48 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: and I'm excited for that. Um. We also sent you 49 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: to a waffle house where you saw a guy get stabbed. 50 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: So really it's been quite a week of journalism for you, 51 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: and they're also there are also be some content around 52 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: that trip in the near future as well. I got 53 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: to talk to some other other researchers the climate change 54 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: and um, how that affects extremism, and look forward to 55 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: Garrison's three part or Fear and Loathing in the waffle 56 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: House in South Carolina in the very near future. I'm 57 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: excited for that quite a bit myself. Uh. And then last, 58 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: but certainly not at least, we have Christopher and Christopher, 59 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: how are you doing. Um, I'm doing pretty good. Well, okay, 60 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: I say I'm doing pretty good. I've I've just you know, 61 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: I'm I'm I am also a researcher, and being a 62 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: researcher means I've just come off of about six hours 63 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: of reading about Japanese war crimes. So that's what I do. 64 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: Kind of by definition, no one on this team is 65 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 1: ever doing all that well, which is which is the job. Christopher, 66 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: you are probably most prominently to people who use Twitter 67 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: the ice must be destroyed guy on Twitter. And I 68 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,839 Speaker 1: became aware of you because if you're incredibly well researched 69 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: threads UM, particularly focusing on the history of revolutionary movements, 70 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: anarchist movements and include mainly like Southeast and in mainland Asia, 71 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: which is not a history political or or cultural that 72 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: I knew much about, UM, And so we brought you 73 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: onto Behind the Bastards UM to fill out for the 74 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: fact that I am not capable of, for example, doing 75 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: a mouse dung episode with any sort of competence UM. 76 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: And you've done a lot of great stuff there and 77 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 1: you will be You are a history of particularly like 78 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: left wing political movements nowhere UM in a way that 79 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 1: I can never be UM. And I have a great 80 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: deal of admiration for your ability to do that research. 81 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: So you will be helpful. Uh when when I say 82 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: wouldn't it be neat if someone had done this? And 83 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: you say, actually they did and here's how many people died, 84 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:38,799 Speaker 1: And I say, oh damn, Okay, well that's good, Chris. 85 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: What are you reading about this week? Yeah? This this week? Yeah, 86 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: this is this is the this is the Japanese war crimes, 87 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:49,559 Speaker 1: deep dive, this is Yeah, it's mostly been forced labor. 88 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: I made an executive decision that I was not going 89 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: to start reading about comfort women and that particular kind 90 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: of Japanese war crimes one hour before this podcast started. 91 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: But oh yeah yeah, so ah, man, that's the good. 92 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 1: That's the good war crimes right there. Um, I I 93 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 1: don't know, I I've spent like when it comes to 94 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: military history, I definitely spent less time in the Pacific 95 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 1: theater than I have uh in the Western theater. But 96 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: my god, like some of the Unit seven thirty one 97 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 1: ship is just among the darkest stories in history. But 98 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 1: that's not what this podcast is about. So, guys, I 99 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: brought everyone here today because number one, I wanted to 100 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: introduce the audience to the team, and number two I 101 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 1: kind of wanted to ask a big question, um, which 102 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: is you know, we had our first week where I 103 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: sort of laid out the scope of the problems confronting everybody. 104 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: Climate change, UM, the the rising authoritarian movements around the globe, UM, 105 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: the danger of weaponized unreality, and kind of the fundamentally 106 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: separate reality tunnels that people are getting increasingly trapped in 107 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: that make peaceful coexistence almost impossible. UM. And we attempted 108 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: in in that first week of shows to provide people 109 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 1: with some reasons for hope, with some paths forward. UM, 110 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: I am, despite it all, uh, not black pilled. And 111 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: and our goal is to avoid being a black pilled 112 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: podcast Garrison. You want to explain to the nice people 113 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: what black pilled means. All right, So I think followers 114 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: of of you and us as in a Hole are 115 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: probably familiar with pill culture of the coming coming coming 116 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 1: from the matrix. The term red pill got used a 117 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: lot by the far right, especially during Gammer Gate, to 118 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: be like introducing a new idea to someone's pilling someone. 119 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: If you're and if you're getting someone to become like 120 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: a conservative or for or like an alright person, you're 121 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: red pilling them. UM. So that that was what got popular, 122 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 1: and then because that became like a much more viral meme, 123 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: and pill was just got to be used on various 124 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: various other ideologies and even just like things. So if 125 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: I'm drinking coffee, I'm taking my coffee pill, etcetera. Bad 126 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 1: jokes by people who don't have much better things to do. UM. 127 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: But black pill is like uh, is like a duomer 128 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: pill or like a nihilism pill. It's like not being 129 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: able to see hope for the future. Everything is like 130 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: just like avoid you don't be able to see that, 131 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: you can't see the light at the end of the tunnel. UM. 132 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: So that's kind of what black pill means when it's 133 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: used like online UM generally it's it's true. It's it's 134 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: people who are making like propaganda or making content who 135 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: are or or just you know, people like on forms, 136 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: chat rooms and stuff. We're trying to get other people 137 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: to become this kind of dysfunctional nihilist um and not 138 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: be able to really see any any future. UM. And 139 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of issues with this, but 140 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: particularly it comes from kind of a very like privileged 141 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: place in in in a lot of ways, because the 142 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: people who are you know, seeped in this are not 143 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: gonna be the ones facing the worst consequences of climate 144 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: change or you know, localized collapses. UM. So that's that's 145 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: kind of the problem with this whole black pilling thing. 146 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: And it's because it's becoming increasingly pop are online. Yeah, 147 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: and I've seen a lot of this, so obviously, UM. 148 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: I I spend some time on the collapse subreddit because 149 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: that's a good information aggregator UM. And I have some 150 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: fans there, so they've been commenting on the first week 151 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: of shows, and one person was like, I I think 152 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: that he's he always understates the damn it, like how 153 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: serious climate change is going to be, and sort of 154 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: made the point that like basically, we're all going to die. UM. 155 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: And that's that's not that's not gonna happened. That's not 156 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: the situation. Number one, UM, have you heard if you 157 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: have you all heard of the Toba catastrophe. No, it's 158 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: an interesting thing. I just got informed about this and 159 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:39,079 Speaker 1: have been doing a little bit of reading. It was 160 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: a super volcanic eruption that occurred about seventy five thousand 161 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: years ago. UM. And so like what does present day Sumatra, Indonesia, 162 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: it's one of the largest explosive eruptions in world history. UM. 163 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: And there's a theory and this is so this is 164 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: you know, obviously too far, too long ago, first hard evidence, 165 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: but there's a theory that this caused a global like 166 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: volcanic winter that lasted as long as a decade and 167 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: may have caused a thousand year long cooling episode. And 168 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: this is y'all may have heard that there are a 169 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: number of scientists who think that about seventy thousand years 170 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 1: ago there was a massive population bottleneck where the global 171 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: human population was reduced to an incredibly tiny number, which 172 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 1: is why like everyone can kind of trace their lineage 173 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: back to one of a very small number of people, 174 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,559 Speaker 1: and kind of the theory is that the Toba explosion 175 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 1: caused that bottleneck. It was just so devastating to life 176 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: on Earth that like it caused or specifically to human life, 177 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: that it it reduced the global human population down to 178 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: a very tiny number. Um. But also if that's true, 179 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: we we did make it. It was seventy five thou 180 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: years ago. Like we're doing all right, which is not 181 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 1: to say, like when I say we're doing all right, 182 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:51,079 Speaker 1: I mean the human species exists in sufficient number to 183 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: maintain biodiversity, right. I think people underestimate how many people 184 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: are who life right now? Yeah, and how adaptable our 185 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 1: species is. And that doesn't mean the problem is not 186 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 1: nightmarishly severe, because it is. The question is number one, 187 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: how miserable is life going to be? How many we 188 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: could still human beings could exist in completely sufficient numbers 189 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,199 Speaker 1: for the maintenance of the population, and billions of people 190 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: could still die as a result of climate change, And 191 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: that's a problem, Like that's a that's a real issue, 192 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: But it is also not. Um, it's not a guarantee 193 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: that that many people will die, that we will let 194 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: it get that bad. It is at this point a 195 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: guarantee essentially based on all of the best that we have, 196 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: that we're going to hit one and a half degrees um. Absolutely, 197 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: and almost certainly two degrees just kind of based on 198 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: where things are politically now three degrees. Four degrees is 199 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: not a guarantee and can be stopped. Um. It is 200 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: an uphill battle. Uh And And but also because we 201 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 1: are talking about not just billions of human lives, but 202 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: hundreds or if not thousands of species around the planet. 203 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: Um depend on us curbing emissions and us reversing to 204 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 1: the extent that that's possible. As much of the damage 205 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: as we can UM and I think it is kind 206 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: of the height of selfishness to just look at the 207 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: scale of the problem and go, well, we're doomed, so 208 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: don't try to do anything. So like, ever since that 209 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,959 Speaker 1: climate report came out, there's been two narratives online that 210 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:39,959 Speaker 1: I've seen quite a bit, which is does individual impact matter? 211 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: And what will the quality of life be? These are 212 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: these are both impossible to questions to answer. I mean 213 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 1: the first the first one was a little bit easier because, 214 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 1: like generally world individual consumer choices matter, probably not very much. 215 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: Of course, not that's not that's that we can look 216 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: at the history of how that's been pushed by certain companies. 217 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: I think a lots of people are already familiar with that, 218 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:06,599 Speaker 1: which doesn't mean there's no And I do want to 219 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:08,199 Speaker 1: be clear here when I when we say your your 220 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: individual decisions as a consumer are not going to UM 221 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: fix the problem in any meaningful degree. Learning how to 222 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: be comfortable and happy with less, learning how to personally 223 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: emit less, those are all still useful adaptations because part 224 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: of the story, part of the solution is how do 225 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: we fix this. Part of the solution is how do 226 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: we as individuals and communities adapt to this, and we 227 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: are going to have to adapt to less. That is 228 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: going to be a necessity. You can just look at 229 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: how in a lot of places weed crops have are 230 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: fifty lower than the harvest was last year in some 231 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:46,719 Speaker 1: reasons like ninevah in Iraq, in northeastern Syria, um like 232 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: calamitous under production as a result of how bad this 233 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: summer is. That's going to continue to happen. We are 234 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: going to have to deal with less, not just because 235 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: we'll have less available, but because if we're trying to 236 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: take care of our community, that might mean even if 237 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: we can afford to consume at the level where we 238 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: need to personally do more, get by with less so 239 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: that we can give more to other people in our 240 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: community who can't afford anything. There's a and that's again 241 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 1: not going to taking care of the people in your neighborhood. 242 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: You know, setting up a four block radius where you 243 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 1: make sure there's you know, free fridges and soup kitchens 244 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: or whatever isn't going to fix climate change. But community 245 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: resiliency is an important part of building any building the 246 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:29,319 Speaker 1: kind of dual power that I think is going to 247 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:31,199 Speaker 1: be necessary to find climate change. It's also just a 248 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: necessary survival adaptation, and the fact that there are things 249 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: to do, the fact that there's so much to do 250 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: both to solve the problem on a big scale and 251 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:42,839 Speaker 1: to take care of the people around us, that all 252 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 1: of us have a responsibility to do because we as 253 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:49,079 Speaker 1: people are responsible for each other. Um, I think means 254 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: it's immoral to lose hope. Yeah, this is also precisely 255 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: the wrong one went to do it because and and 256 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:57,679 Speaker 1: this this is one of you know, one of the 257 00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: one of the reasons I'm excited to be doing this 258 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: is that I don't think generally the broad public has 259 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: a particularly good understanding of what's been happening the last 260 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,599 Speaker 1: three years, which is that well, and you know, you 261 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 1: can go back into the decade, right, you know, so 262 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: I I like started doing activism stuff around thirteen with 263 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: the sort of second wave of revolutions from from the 264 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: air Spring, and so you know, and over the course 265 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: of that decade, you have you have an increasing series 266 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: of revolutions and they kind of they kind of peter 267 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: out and they kind of start to lose around but 268 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: then in eighteen they start again, and you know, I'm 269 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna read a partial, like enormous emphasis on 270 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: partial list of places that had either full scale revolutions 271 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: or hundreds of thousands of millions people in the street. 272 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: So okay, starting starting Fromen, you have Haiti, Sudan, Algeria, Honduras, Chila, Ibraq, 273 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: Hong kong I, rands on their like third version of this. 274 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: Lebanon's had about three, Columbia's had three, h France at 275 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: the general strikes. There's also the Yello vest. There's there 276 00:14:58,000 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: was there was a six d person general striker p 277 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: there was There's been a bunch of stuff in India, 278 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: the farmer's protests. There's been stuff in Ecuador and Popua 279 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: Catalonia briefly, and you know, there there's something there, like 280 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: there there were a bunch of roadblockades last year in Canada, 281 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: like Canada when it went into revolt over a bunch 282 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: of pipeline stuff. And then you know, and then and 283 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: then and then there was last summer, and last summer 284 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: was sort of in the US and that that was 285 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: sort of this this this capstone of like the second 286 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: wave of revolutions in that decade, and you know, the 287 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: thing like this wave that that that again, that's that's 288 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: a very partial list, and that that sort of wave 289 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: of upheople right, it's it's a sign of both the 290 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: fact that you know, everyone realizes that the world is 291 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: just crumbling, right, and also that you know, people people 292 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: have sort of started to figure out that, like, you know, 293 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: the sort of ordinary political processes don't work, and that 294 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: if you get enough people together, you can like the 295 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: ordinary political process to cease to function. And you know, 296 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: I mean people there there's been a huge if forget 297 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: everyone to forget this last summer. But you know, people 298 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: were fighting the Secret Service at the gates of the 299 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: White House, like the president, like Donald truck was yeah, 300 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: like you know, like the like you know, the you know, 301 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: for for for about a week there, the cops completely 302 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: lost control of most major cities. Like you know, I'm 303 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: in Chicago and in Chicago, god, the street drinking in 304 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: Portland was beautiful. Just teenagers smoking cigarettes walking down the 305 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 1: right in front of the police station. Yeah, it's sorry, 306 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: I mean it's incredible. People like people, people like just 307 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: took control of them, like the Bracle Mile it was, 308 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: you know, and you saw for a very brief moment 309 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: just like what what a world without the police, for example, 310 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: would look like right, And you know, it was a 311 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: lot of parties, there's a lot of celebration, there's a 312 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: lot of people sort of there's there's a lot of 313 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: arts everywhere, right, And I think, what what have you 314 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: seen over the last three years? What we've seen ability 315 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: of the last decade is that you know, cycles revolutions 316 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: like this, You used to get them once every like 317 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:10,400 Speaker 1: three decades, two, right, we got to in a decade. 318 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: And all the things that cause that, like all of 319 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 1: the all things thats inate financial class, everything that was 320 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 1: bad that caused everyone to go into the streets is 321 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 1: still happening, and they're still getting worse. And so this 322 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: is this is going to keep happening. This sort of 323 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: unrest is gonna keep happening. And and our job and 324 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: our responsibility is to make sure that you know the 325 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: product if this is actually a better world, because you 326 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: know they're there, there's there's basically you know this this 327 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: is the thing you learned study history that there's always 328 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: almost always bad things happening, there's almost always resistance to it, 329 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 1: and that resistance can win. And I think that's you know, 330 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: like that that's that's the important part of this. Yeah, yeah, 331 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: and it's it's this um. One of the things that 332 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: you're getting at there is one of the things that 333 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: I think most toxically the left, particularly in UM in 334 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: the West, HASH has lost in recent times, which used 335 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 1: to be a huge aspect of not just the anarchists left, 336 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,719 Speaker 1: although it was massive among anarchists, but about the organized 337 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: left in general in the West. Was internationalism. Was this 338 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 1: idea that like the struggles in Spain, the struggles of 339 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: workers in Germany and England and uh in China, in 340 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 1: Poland and Indonesia, where we are all connected, and like 341 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: you would have the magazines that were like, you know, 342 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 1: part of these different workers organizations would have stories and 343 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: experiences from protests and strikes and uprisings all around the world, 344 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 1: and there was this this strong sense of international solidarity 345 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: and that has collapsed, and the collapse of it is 346 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 1: a long story. I think we should probably do a 347 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 1: special on it at some point. Aspects of it started 348 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: in World War One when there was this big understanding 349 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 1: among socialists in World War One that like, well, if 350 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 1: push comes to shoven there's a big European war, the 351 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: workers won't fight, right, We won't we won't massacre each other, 352 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: and then they did. Um Because you know, nationalism is 353 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: the hell of a drug. There's a lot of again 354 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: we're not doing the topic justice, but but a big 355 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: part of why it's so thoroughly dead right now is 356 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 1: these this this multinational series of kind of propaganda campaigns 357 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 1: orchestrated by a number of different governments, including our own, 358 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: in order to you know, in the case of like 359 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: Russian disinformation propaganda, make all these different left wing or 360 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: all these different kind of populist uprisings and populist movements 361 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: that are anti Russian political interests, call them color revolutions. 362 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 1: And you see, you know, the same thing is done 363 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 1: by the Chinese government, and our government does the same thing. 364 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: Like it's not a it's not a case of like, well, 365 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: we're better or or they're better. It's a case of like, well, 366 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: all of these governments have a vested interest in people 367 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 1: not seeing their interests as in common and their struggle 368 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: as the same. Um. But people are still struggling, and 369 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: one of the missing ingredients in the last couple of 370 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: years of increasing as as as Christopher did a great 371 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: job of playing out of increasingly massive um sustained revolts 372 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: against state power and against the global system that is 373 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,640 Speaker 1: grinding us all under its boot heel. Is that, Um, 374 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 1: we did not have as as much of an international 375 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: kind of solidarity as we as we should have, UM, 376 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: And I think that's going to be necessary if we're 377 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: going to do you know, we talked about this in 378 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 1: the first week of episodes, um, and you were just 379 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: talking about a version of this, Chris. I think the 380 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: only thing that's really the only thing likely to get 381 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: us out of this without you know, blood letting on 382 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 1: a scale that nobody really wants to think about is 383 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: the equivalent of a heart attack at the centers of capital, 384 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: which can only happen when enough people are like, well, 385 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: I'm just not going to keep doing ship like I'm 386 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 1: not gonna keep I'm not going to keep doing the 387 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 1: ship that like keeps this system moving forward. Um, because 388 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, you can like send 389 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: cops out to beat people, but you can't make me work. 390 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 1: Um And Uh, that could do something. People who are 391 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,439 Speaker 1: telling you it can't happen, or it can't work or 392 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 1: it can't be done are are full of ship. And 393 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 1: one of the things I want to cover that we 394 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 1: will at some point. Is how the how the movement 395 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: in Hong Kong came to a broad consensus about their 396 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: list of demands, And obviously that is in the process 397 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: of being crushed, you know, um in the long run, 398 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: there's and there's there's certainly criticisms to make, but also 399 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: they were up against a kind of insurmountable challenge really 400 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:29,479 Speaker 1: without any kind of um aid from overseas. You know, 401 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: it was it was, it was. It was a noble, 402 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 1: doomed fight. But there's a lot of lessons, including how 403 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: this very decentralized movement came to an accordance about a 404 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: list of demands that that then became internationally recognized as 405 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 1: like these are the demands of this movement. Um. And 406 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: I think there's there's powerful lessons for kind of what's 407 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: going to be necessary for all of us in in 408 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: in that process. UM. Because I think hoping to kind 409 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: of overnight get everyone on board with we have to 410 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: overthrow the government and established socialism, I just don't see 411 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: that happening. Um. I. I we can't get Americans on 412 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: board with whether or not masks stop a pandemic. Um. 413 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: But could you get Americans, could you get a wide 414 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: variety of working class people from around the world on 415 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: board with, you know, a more focused list of things 416 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,919 Speaker 1: that like they see is like well this this. You know, 417 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 1: you can get a lot of people who if you 418 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: have them talking about the politicians they support or like 419 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,439 Speaker 1: how they identify politically, will get into screaming arguments. But 420 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 1: if you talk about like, boy, it sure seems like 421 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: we're all getting fucked over by this pretty same small 422 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: group of rich people, They'll all be like, yeah, I mean, 423 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: I'm more or less agree with that. If you say, like, hey, 424 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: it seems like the government's corrupt and shitty and incompetent 425 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: and never takes care of any of us, they all 426 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: agree with that, and you can get them. You can 427 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: if you focus on, hey, here's what we all need 428 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 1: to advocate for together, because it will make all of 429 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: our lives better. I think you'll have an easier time 430 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: with that than trying to convince somebody who's been educated 431 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: for fifty years to think socialism as the devil to 432 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 1: identify personally as a socialist. And maybe that's a little 433 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: less important than getting that person to agree that we 434 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 1: need to seize the wealth of the billionaire class UM 435 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 1: and reinvest it in a world that is sustainable and 436 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,719 Speaker 1: survivable for all of us. I don't know that seems 437 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: like a better shot to me, So I guess the 438 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: question to ask is what gives each of you hope 439 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: right now. There's a couple of things. I think back 440 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:36,199 Speaker 1: to the moment when I was reporting from the steps 441 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: of the Federal courthouse in Portland two or three nights 442 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 1: into things getting really fucking crazy, and I was standing 443 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: next to this middle aged mom with a respirator who 444 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: had gotten tear gas horribly the night before and come 445 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 1: came back out, and we were all yelling at the 446 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 1: or they were all yelling at the federal agents inside, 447 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: and she said, I don't see why we have to 448 00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: wait it out here. Let's kick down the damn door. 449 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: And then she tried to do it. UM. And that, uh, 450 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: you know, there were some real moments. I think about 451 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 1: the line the pa length of Chud's with weapons breaking 452 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: and running last year UM, when enough of the city 453 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: came out to push them back. UM. I think about 454 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 1: the I think about the fact that UM, an unprecedented 455 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 1: mutual aid effort, was organized by huge numbers of regular 456 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: people around India to try to fill in the craps, 457 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 1: the well cracks, and the craps from their their government's 458 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: complete failure to handle the pandemic earlier this year. UM, 459 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 1: I think about, uh, what people would activists have been 460 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 1: doing in Puerto Rico for years as the US government 461 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: has consistently failed to deliver any sort of meaningful disaster relief. UM. 462 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 1: I think about the fact that while we are all, 463 00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 1: every single person listening to this, ruled by venal cowards 464 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 1: who think of nothing but their own short term interests 465 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,120 Speaker 1: and will kill the world to maintain those interests. Um, 466 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: the vast majority of us would give the shirts off 467 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 1: of our back to a neighbor in immediate traumatic need 468 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: because that's just what people generally do. Yeah. Mutual the 469 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: the heightened popularity mutual aid is something that's talked about 470 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: a lot in terms of what is giving people more hope. 471 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: I guess the other thing is like be able to see, 472 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: but like both see and experience a lot of like 473 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:40,199 Speaker 1: um quote unquote, like many anarchies, UM like popping up 474 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,199 Speaker 1: in different places and getting to like see the world 475 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: through a different through, like through like a different lens 476 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 1: for for even for however, briefly, you know, that's part 477 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 1: of you know, what happened staying at like the stop 478 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,439 Speaker 1: line three camp. Part of what happened at like the 479 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: Earth First camp is like you get to very briefly 480 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: look at like the world without the same systems of 481 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 1: a hierarchy that we live in every day, and it's 482 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: like almost intoxicating, Like the way like once you can 483 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: experience that, you're like, why can't it always be like this? 484 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 1: Um and getting more people to experience that many anarchy 485 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: can will I think help people be more able to 486 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: like yeah, I'll I'll go across the country to help, 487 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: you know, do something for this pipeline to help protect 488 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 1: the specific forest. And then even like like even like 489 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: locally whenever there's like a you know, whether it's be 490 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: like a forest by are in your area, a hurricane, 491 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,239 Speaker 1: be like, yeah, I'm gonna go help with the with 492 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: the relief efforts, because one, you're making people's lives better 493 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 1: and to it actually does feel good, like it actually 494 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 1: like it be able to being able to work as 495 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: a person with other people outside the regular systems of 496 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: hierarchy is super interesting. When we're stuck in such like 497 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: a repetitive cycle of you know, of our jobs and 498 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 1: of our bills and of all this kind of stuff, 499 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: but able to go outside of that. For however, brief 500 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: is is is a new thing that can get you 501 00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: to really change your outlook on certain things. We saw 502 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: us a bit, you know, with the temporary autonomous zones 503 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: popping up. Um. We saw this a bit with like 504 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: the Red House in Portland, um. And like these these 505 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 1: things are by no means without flaw, Like there's a 506 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 1: lot of the same systems of oppression, like misogyny um 507 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: is still like in these spaces a lot um. You know, 508 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: there's there's still a lot of you know, like men 509 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,400 Speaker 1: who get guns who want to be like the security 510 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: which can replicate a lot of police. Like we're going 511 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 1: to have to do an episode on protest security has 512 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,160 Speaker 1: to and why those two children got fucking murdered. Yeah, 513 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: it's like like these these mani anarchies are not like 514 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,880 Speaker 1: they doesn't make all these things go away, um. And 515 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,400 Speaker 1: it actually gets a really good example of these Even 516 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,160 Speaker 1: when you get to get rid of certain hierarchies, some 517 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: are still seeped into a lot of people's brains, Like 518 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: misogyny is one of them. And having having power over 519 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: other specific people. UM, so those are all things to address. 520 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 1: But being like you know at the top line three 521 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 1: camp that that was like run by um indigenous and 522 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,200 Speaker 1: two spirit women, and that was like a y very 523 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: different environments then all of them like Redhouse and the 524 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: A Z s Um Red House was an eviction defense 525 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: in Portland's that was extremely successful in its goal, which 526 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 1: was to stop the eviction, but also had some problematic 527 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 1: elements people declaring themselves security and like threatening teenagers with 528 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: paintball guns over graffiti like some dumb ship, which doesn't 529 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 1: take away from the effective and very powerful aspects of it. 530 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,400 Speaker 1: But you know, we should be able to analyze accurately 531 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: the failures and the successes of of things that are 532 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,479 Speaker 1: kind of within our our wheelhouse of ship we broadly 533 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: agree with. Otherwise we're just cheer leading without analysis. Chris, Yeah, 534 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: I think there's a few things. So there's a there there. 535 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,719 Speaker 1: There's a line from a Uruguayan journalists whose name I'm 536 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: about to butcher roul Zebitchy. I think um and he 537 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: he talks about how struggle like it's like it's like 538 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: a bolt of lightning that sort of illuminates a night 539 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: sky and what what what what that what that illumination, 540 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: what that bolt of lightning shows you is you know, 541 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 1: it's it's the previously obscure relation to domination and power, 542 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: and you know it, it's it shows you all of 543 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: the things that were sort of hidden before. And I 544 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: think this is what happened a lot over the summer, right, 545 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, one of the things I always 546 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: think about was that so if if you had told 547 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: like even you know, even in the beginning of one 548 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: if you had told me that like even ten percent 549 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: of Americans would have supported burning down a police station, no, 550 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: it's it's impossible, right, And then you know, after it happens, 551 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: the like you know that burning down the police station 552 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 1: had a higher approve of reading the both presidential either yeah, 553 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,719 Speaker 1: and you know, and this is something and you know, 554 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: in that moment, right like you know, the sort of 555 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: normal public opinion, everything shifted dramatically, just instantly, in a 556 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: manner of a week. Everyone went from sort of you know, 557 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: I say, if here obviously that there's always been people 558 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: struggling against the police, but it went from you know, 559 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: no one and no one in the US could ever 560 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: publicly say that they wanted a police station to get 561 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: burned down without like Fox News personally taking a mob 562 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: on them too. More than half the country thinks this 563 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: is good and and that that kind of transformation, the 564 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: way that it is actually possible for things to change 565 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: extremely quickly, and its possible things to get better extremely quickly, 566 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 1: and it's possible possible people's for for people to get 567 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: to to get used to and sort of and uh, 568 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: you know, it's worth noting that a huge part of 569 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: why a plurality of Americans supported burning the Third Precinct 570 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: was because a a single citizen with a camera had 571 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: the courage to film something that was wrong, and that 572 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: that instantly changed a lot of people's minds. Um, people 573 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 1: who would not have supported that. And if it had 574 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: just been sort of like if that had not been 575 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: a part of the of the equation, um. But because 576 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: the inhumanity of state violence was was rendered so stark 577 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: before them, there was for most decent people nothing to 578 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: do but say, well, yeah, what else were they going 579 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: to do? You know? Um? And as often as not, 580 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: like more than I think works of political theory or 581 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: tracks or newsletters or grand speeches, it is moments like 582 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 1: that that galvanized people into changing things. Is just seeing 583 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: something that's like all right, well fuck it, we gotta 584 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: like we gotta fox some ship up. Um. Yeah, that's 585 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: less eloquent than the quote you read, but what Chris 586 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: said was it was way more eloquent but prettier. Yeah. 587 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: I stole this. I stole this people who are better 588 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 1: at it than I am. But yeah, that's all. Yeah, 589 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: And I also I also would say whatever a thing, 590 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: you know, is it like they're like the control of 591 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: the state. The controls are capitalism, the control of you know, 592 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: these sort of systems of depression. It's not total and 593 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: it never it never has been in it probably can't be. 594 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: There's there's always places where the state, for one reason 595 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: another is either forced to withdraw or has or you know, 596 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: it decides it doesn't want to be anymore. And you know, 597 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 1: you know there there's there, there's a good example of this, 598 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: and well, you know, partially can you can look at 599 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: what happening north in Syria, which you know is is 600 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: its own sortain episode of its own right, But I 601 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: mean one of one of these show on that. Yeah, 602 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: like you know, but but I think like the state 603 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 1: withdraws and then you know, there's there's sort of organizations 604 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: there that can actually like take power in a way 605 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: that's not quite that's not taking power. And then you know, subsequently, 606 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 1: I think, I think maybe more importantly is just the 607 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: reality of the feminist movement in you know. So so 608 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: the p k K is the Kurdish Yeah yeah, we're 609 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: Workers Party and started up in the mountains. Yeah yeah, yeah, yes, 610 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: and the list is now you know, a post I 611 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: guess you'd say, yeah, yeah, And you know, like they 612 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: like that. That movement was an incredibly hierarchical movements and 613 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways it was a very patriarchical 614 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: movement because you know, it's it's a classical Martist Londonist movement, right, 615 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: they have they have a great leader, everyone follows a 616 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 1: great leader, everything sort of passes down, and and it 617 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 1: was mixed in with these kind of very traditional Kurdish 618 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: militant because Kurds have a long tradition of like kind 619 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: of militant warrior culture. So yeah, incredibly patriarchal in a 620 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: number of ways. Yeah. And then but then inside of it, 621 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: like a feminist movement in Burches and in a lot 622 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: of ways they win like they're there. You know, this 623 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 1: is this is how you get from this sort of 624 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: incredibly hierarchical institution to one that's significantly what democratic, that's 625 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: more a gallaternie on gender lines. That that that's how 626 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: you get all of that is there there. You know, 627 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 1: there's an internal feminist movement inside the PKK, and it 628 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: wins and and you know, I mean and part part 629 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,799 Speaker 1: of that also has to do with Opo, who's leader 630 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,320 Speaker 1: the p KK, sort of having a sort of ideological 631 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 1: come around. But you know, the the fact that it 632 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: is possible to you know, when when when you when 633 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: you have a radical movements that is doing a lot 634 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:23,399 Speaker 1: of good things in some ways, in some ways it's 635 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 1: also incredibly flawed. It's possible for it to make it better. 636 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: And it's also it's possible for for you know, it's 637 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 1: it's possible to mount to consistent five for patriarchy in 638 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 1: in these spaces and win I think, is you know, 639 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 1: or I mean, you know, maybe not win, but at 640 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,959 Speaker 1: least very dramatically change the balance of power. Yeah, it's 641 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: some I think it is incredibly important important to study 642 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 1: because it's it's a case of you have this movement 643 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: that the p KK that has done some really messed 644 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,800 Speaker 1: up stuff and has some very problematic aspects in its history, 645 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:00,839 Speaker 1: but it's also effective at doing a number of things, 646 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: including armed resistance. And you have internally this movement democratize 647 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. You have it, you have 648 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,879 Speaker 1: it shed a lot of its patriarchal structure while still 649 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 1: maintaining its capacity for resistance, and it never stops. There's 650 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 1: always been and still are things that the p k 651 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: K does that that I'm not going to support or 652 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 1: defend um because there's some, although a lot less of 653 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:25,760 Speaker 1: them now, and if you're going to kind of compare 654 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: them to the people they're fighting, I think they're committing 655 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: less war crimes in the Turkish government at the moment um. 656 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:36,319 Speaker 1: But it's it's hopeful because part of what is necessary 657 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: is and part one of the things I think that people, 658 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: particularly online left get wrong is this kind of throw 659 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 1: the baby out with the bathwater sort of thing. You 660 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 1: get this a lot in the in the in the 661 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,839 Speaker 1: dialogue around US veterans where there's a chunk of the left, 662 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 1: it's like, well, they're all war criminals and funk everyone 663 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: who chooses to do that, and it's like, Okay, well, 664 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 1: you're going to ignore number one, like people who are 665 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 1: eighteen years old, and depending on where they grew up. 666 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,240 Speaker 1: A simple fact about human beings is that if everyone 667 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 1: around you when you're a child tells you this is 668 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,919 Speaker 1: a good thing to do, an a moral thing to do, 669 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,399 Speaker 1: you will probably grow up believing that is a good 670 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 1: and a moral thing to do. And some of those 671 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,440 Speaker 1: people grow up to realize like, oh, you know what, 672 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 1: it was actually pretty fucked up. Uh, And and this 673 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,880 Speaker 1: this is bad and I want to agitate and organize 674 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 1: against this thing without wanting to condemn and say like, also, 675 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: all of my friends are murders because you know what 676 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 1: they're they're they're not um not in the sense that 677 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:35,319 Speaker 1: like every single person there is knowingly mass occurring civilians. 678 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 1: Is everybody enabling uh, structures that kill civilians? Yes? And 679 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 1: so are you, and so am I and so is 680 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 1: everybody listening to this. If you pay your taxes, if 681 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 1: you um, if you exist in this society, you are 682 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:54,160 Speaker 1: enabling like every time you fill up your fucking gas tank. Um, 683 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 1: you're you're a part of it. We're all a part 684 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: of it. Um. And so I think this, this, I 685 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,840 Speaker 1: think is the kind of condemnation culture is less effective 686 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: in this understanding that, like, if we accept that things 687 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,479 Speaker 1: are fucked up and we agitate to make them less 688 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:12,439 Speaker 1: fucked up. Um, you can sometimes accomplish remarkable things within 689 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: very flawed structures and systems. Um. And I think that's 690 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: better than I don't know, trying to just score points 691 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: over how much you know about how bad things suck. 692 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:42,399 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess in in conclusion, uh, I think 693 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,759 Speaker 1: society could be improved somewhat. I think the things that 694 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:49,840 Speaker 1: are currently killing people could kill less people. Um. And 695 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: I think everybody has some responsibility to try and force 696 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: changes that make the world less violent and horrible. Uh. 697 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,320 Speaker 1: And if you think the world could be less island 698 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 1: and horrible, um, then then I think we're more or 699 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 1: less on the same side, unless you think it could 700 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,760 Speaker 1: be less horrible by murdering all of the Democrats because 701 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 1: they're harvesting the adrena chrome of babies, in which case 702 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:17,320 Speaker 1: we're not really on the same side. To kind of 703 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 1: go full circle to the first thing we talked about 704 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,920 Speaker 1: with like doom stuff, I think it's important to also 705 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:26,280 Speaker 1: remember like we're we're not even we're barely even deciding 706 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,239 Speaker 1: how we're going to live going forward. Right now, we're 707 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,839 Speaker 1: at like at the pivotal point where we're deciding what 708 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 1: the Earth is going to be like in three hundred years, 709 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,279 Speaker 1: like we are, and I would like this podcast to 710 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,400 Speaker 1: also not be anthropocentric. I wanted to also focus on 711 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: like we're just part of this planet and there's other 712 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 1: species and other things that all that are all self 713 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 1: reliant on each other to continue going um. And we're 714 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 1: not just deciding how long someone like you know, me 715 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 1: is going to live or people you know younger than me. 716 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,319 Speaker 1: It's deciding like we're like we're like we're at the 717 00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 1: end of the human climate. We are now entering a 718 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,880 Speaker 1: new age and we're deciding what that's going to be. 719 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,719 Speaker 1: And it can be really really bad, or it can 720 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:07,279 Speaker 1: be only a little bit bad, and we can and 721 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 1: we can adapt to that little little little bit of badness. 722 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:11,759 Speaker 1: But I think it's really really bad that's going to 723 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 1: be very difficult. And that's where like we can't not 724 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,719 Speaker 1: do anything right now because we're deciding so many important 725 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,400 Speaker 1: things for centuries and even like millennia to come. And 726 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 1: that's like the other thing to help us not get 727 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,920 Speaker 1: stuck in the black pill. Yeah, that's an incredibly important 728 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:35,440 Speaker 1: point because it is like you, we're we're all we're 729 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 1: not just deciding like how livable is this, How pleasant 730 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 1: is the climate going to be for us? How livable 731 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 1: is it going to be for It's like we're deciding 732 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 1: are there going to be iguanas in the future? Are 733 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: there going to be truth slots? Are there going to 734 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:49,840 Speaker 1: be redwoods and salmon? You know? Are we going to 735 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 1: have clouds? Will we have clouds in a century? Um? 736 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:56,759 Speaker 1: I hope the es to all of it, And like, yeah, 737 00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:02,279 Speaker 1: that is why it is this. Um, the folks who 738 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 1: have spent billions of dollars kind of fighting against any 739 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:10,360 Speaker 1: effective action against climate change and kind of muddying the 740 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 1: issue until it was too late to stop what's going 741 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 1: to be inevitably going to be a very dark scenario already. Um, 742 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,919 Speaker 1: those people are now pushing the idea that like, well, 743 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 1: there's nothing that can be done, or there's nothing that 744 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 1: like we we can't none of the actions we take 745 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,120 Speaker 1: would be worth taking and like whatever, or like there's 746 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,720 Speaker 1: there's a variety of different kind of tax they've taken, 747 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:37,480 Speaker 1: but they have a vested interest in the the reaction 748 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 1: that I see from a lot of people on the left, 749 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 1: which is like, well we're fucked, just prepare for collapse 750 00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,960 Speaker 1: like that. They win, they win if you take that. Yeah, 751 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,800 Speaker 1: they would love they love that reaction. They're they're finally 752 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:49,839 Speaker 1: like the new way, like the old way to pass 753 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 1: by people as by saying no, this isn't real, this 754 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 1: isn't a problem. The new way that passed by people 755 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,320 Speaker 1: are saying this is a huge problem that can't be fixed, 756 00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,200 Speaker 1: and all they want is for people to be pacified. 757 00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: And we have to actually resist that because that's the 758 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: easy thing to do. That's the thing that makes our 759 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:05,640 Speaker 1: brains feel more comfortable, like we can like we can 760 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,840 Speaker 1: relax into the doom, right, And we have to actively 761 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,440 Speaker 1: fight that every day because it always infects our brains 762 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 1: and if it affects my brain like it, you can't 763 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,320 Speaker 1: you can't escape, but you have to actively fight it. Yeah. 764 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 1: The reality is that if we accept doom, we will 765 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,600 Speaker 1: all burn to death separately. Whereas if we take all 766 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,799 Speaker 1: of their ship and we lock the worst of them 767 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: away in a dark hole for trying to kill the 768 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 1: planet um and we stop building a society around the 769 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,200 Speaker 1: poisons that they profit from, then maybe there will be 770 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 1: claw slots and clouds in a hundred years um, and 771 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:43,239 Speaker 1: that's worth fighting for. Do it do it for the iguanas? 772 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: Do it for what for the iguanas? H The anthropolgist 773 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 1: David Graber wrote something about neoliberalism where he said, deliberalism 774 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 1: is it's it's not an engine that produces anything economically, 775 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 1: as an engine that produces despair. That's you know, that's 776 00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 1: its sole job. And not only is it so job, 777 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,000 Speaker 1: it will sacrifice its own continue to existence to make 778 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:05,239 Speaker 1: sure that people can't actually can't not only like I 779 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:07,400 Speaker 1: can't imagine in the future, but are just sort of 780 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:11,279 Speaker 1: are so beaten down that you know that the engine 781 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: of despair cans use him. They do nothing. And you 782 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,120 Speaker 1: know I would say this, You know, the reason the 783 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 1: state cracks down so hard isn't because it's strong. It's 784 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,439 Speaker 1: because it's weak. The you know, the the the the 785 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:23,840 Speaker 1: reason that sort of engine and despair has to keep going, 786 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:25,480 Speaker 1: Why why they have to keep telling you that it's 787 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 1: im possible, is because it is. If it were genuinely 788 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:29,960 Speaker 1: impossible for us to do anything, they wouldn't have to, 789 00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,239 Speaker 1: like you know that there wouldn't be any need for propaganda, 790 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:34,600 Speaker 1: right if if they were, if they weren't actually genuinely 791 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:39,399 Speaker 1: afraid of the possibility that you know, we decided not 792 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:44,160 Speaker 1: to give in to despair and do something. Yep, that's 793 00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:46,520 Speaker 1: as good as a note to end on as we're 794 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,799 Speaker 1: going to find. So, uh, don't give in to despair. 795 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:57,000 Speaker 1: Do it for the Iguanas. Uh and uh, you know 796 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:05,160 Speaker 1: uh of products and services you can follow, can follow. 797 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 1: You can follow cool Zone Media on Twitter and Instagram. 798 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,560 Speaker 1: You can uh you know you're probably already subscribed to 799 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:12,479 Speaker 1: it could it could Happen Here pod because you're listening 800 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:14,200 Speaker 1: to it, but if you're not, should probably subscribe to that. 801 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 1: You can follow, You can follow, You can follow the 802 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:22,960 Speaker 1: podcast that Happen Here pod on Instagram in Twitter too, Yep. 803 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,160 Speaker 1: Follow the things, Listen to the things that will help 804 00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:31,400 Speaker 1: us keep making more stuff. God speed, goodbye, and speed 805 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:33,920 Speaker 1: for the Iguanas.