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Speaker 1: Hi, this is Annie and this is Bridget and you're

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Speaker 1: listening to stuff I'll never told you. So once again

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Speaker 1: we gotta start off with the trigger warning for this one,

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Speaker 1: because today we are talking about another part of me too,

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Speaker 1: and just in general, we're talking about complex PTSD and

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Speaker 1: in the age of me too, how to navigate that

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Speaker 1: if that is a trigger for you and then you're

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Speaker 1: just being overwhelmed almost everywhere, but especially in social media

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Speaker 1: and things like that with triggers. And another thing we

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Speaker 1: have to say at the top is we are not doctors,

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Speaker 1: are therapist at all. So hopefully this is informative, but

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Speaker 1: it is no replacement for seeing a professional. Yes, we

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Speaker 1: are not doctors. If you need to see a profess national,

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Speaker 1: you should try to do that. Um. We want to

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Speaker 1: give you resources, advice, make sure that you know that

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Speaker 1: you're not alone, but we cannot replace an actual professional. No.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of you have written in about this

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Speaker 1: and about sort of your struggles with it, um and

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Speaker 1: how it makes you makes you feel not being able

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Speaker 1: to engage. So yeah, we thought we'd talked about it.

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Speaker 1: And I think when a lot of us think of PTSD,

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Speaker 1: we think of veterans war veterans, And there's an episode

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Speaker 1: that you and Emily did bridget around UM suicide and

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Speaker 1: female veterans. Yeah, I actually would really encourage even if

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Speaker 1: you're not a veteran. I learned so much about how

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Speaker 1: PTSD is different for women on the research for that episode,

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Speaker 1: So that's something that you're interested in. Definitely check it out. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: for sure, UM and a lot of us probably have

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Speaker 1: a general idea of what post traumatic stress disorder is,

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Speaker 1: but um, what is complex. PTSD are sometimes as it's

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Speaker 1: known c PTSD. But before we get into that, let

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Speaker 1: us start with a quick rundown of PTSD. So eighty

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Speaker 1: to eighty five per cent of folks who experience a

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Speaker 1: traumatic event are estimated to work through it naturally by

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Speaker 1: talking to people, are by grieving. But it's when people

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Speaker 1: don't talk about it, when they avoid it altogether, symptoms

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Speaker 1: develop and hang around, leading to post traumatic stress disorder.

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Speaker 1: PTSD is a trauma or stress related disorder resulting from

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Speaker 1: a traumatic event, and the symptoms are divided into four clusters.

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Speaker 1: One re experiencing so nightmares, flashbacks, intense distressing feelings when

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Speaker 1: you remember the event of setting thoughts or feelings about

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Speaker 1: the event, are having a physical stress response when you

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Speaker 1: are reminded of the event, and an out about flashbacks

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Speaker 1: is visual is not the only type. There's also somatic

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Speaker 1: that's physically reliving a pain or emotional emotionally reliving something

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Speaker 1: like very vividly emotionally reliving something. Yeah, I feel like

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Speaker 1: when we talk about things like this emotionally reliving something like,

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Speaker 1: people think that that is not an actual like I can.

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Speaker 1: I can imagine someone saying, oh, that's not a real

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Speaker 1: side effect, that's not a real symptom, but it can

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Speaker 1: be very real. I've seen with my own eyes people

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Speaker 1: who are in an experience that reminds them of something

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Speaker 1: that was traumatic for them kind of physically and emotionally

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Speaker 1: relive it as if they're you know, in it in

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Speaker 1: that moment. And it's no joke. Like I think it's

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Speaker 1: something that is easy to discount, but it's really no joke, No,

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Speaker 1: not at all. Um. The second cluster of symptoms is

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Speaker 1: called avoidance, and these manifests in ways like avoiding anything

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Speaker 1: that might remind you of the event, and that could

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Speaker 1: be people, places, thoughts, conversations, topics, anything, all of the above.

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Speaker 1: You might go out of your way to stay busy

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Speaker 1: to keep yourself from remembering our dwelling. Third is hyper arousal,

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Speaker 1: which is basically your keyed up all the time. You're

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Speaker 1: always on edge, You're experiencing difficulties sleeping, having outbursts or

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Speaker 1: general irritability, not able to concentrate, being easily startled, or jumping.

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Speaker 1: And the last is negative thoughts are beliefs, which is

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Speaker 1: pretty self explanatory but includes things like not being able

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Speaker 1: to remember the traumatic event clearly, lots of interest in things,

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Speaker 1: feelings of isolation, difficulty feeling anything positive, and feeling like

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Speaker 1: your life may suddenly end. So to be clear, most

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Speaker 1: people don't actually exhibit all of these symptoms all at once,

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Speaker 1: but they do have a few from each of these clusters,

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Speaker 1: and untreated PTSD can lead to a whole host of

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Speaker 1: negative things, eating disorders, substance abuse or disorders, anxiety disorders,

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Speaker 1: or major depression. Yeah, and it's pretty common, to affecting

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Speaker 1: eight million people of all ages in the United States.

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Speaker 1: Women are two to three times more likely to develop

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Speaker 1: it than men, tend to to women compared to five

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Speaker 1: to six percent of men, and studies are ongoing as

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Speaker 1: to why that is, and theories range from biological to

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Speaker 1: psychological UM. Other researchers point out the increased likelihood that

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Speaker 1: women will be exposed to a traumatic event like sexual

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Speaker 1: assault at a younger age. The earlier in life of

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Speaker 1: trauma takes place, the greater the impact and UM. The

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Speaker 1: types of trauma associated with PTSD UM and that last

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Speaker 1: maybe a longer period of time, are perpetrated by people

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Speaker 1: close to them. That might be one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: women are more likely to develop PTSD than men. Others

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Speaker 1: say that because women are twice as likely to develop

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Speaker 1: depression or anxiety disorders, it puts them more at risk

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Speaker 1: to developing PTSD after a traumatic event. It's also possible

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Speaker 1: men don't report as much are that they display symptoms differently.

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Speaker 1: Women who experienced abuse develop PTSD at a ratio of

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Speaker 1: seventy four to three compared to women who have not. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so that is PTSD. Well, let's get into complex PTSD.

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Speaker 1: The main difference between PTSD and c PTSD is that

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Speaker 1: the causes of PTSD, like say a hurricane or a

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Speaker 1: car accident, usually have a time limited duration. C PTSD doesn't.

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Speaker 1: A person dealing with c PTSD experiences chronic trauma lasting

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Speaker 1: months or maybe years at a time, and usually presents

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Speaker 1: additional symptoms alongside the ones you see with traditional PTSD.

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Speaker 1: So I had actually never heard of CPSD, but it

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Speaker 1: makes so much sense, Like if you're someone who has

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Speaker 1: dealt with something that was a longer term trauma and

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Speaker 1: not just sort of a like at one time time

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Speaker 1: limited experience, it makes sense that your symptoms and your reaction,

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Speaker 1: both emotional, mentally, physiologically, all of that would be different. Um.

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Speaker 1: Some of the particular circumstances that can lead to CPSD

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Speaker 1: are used with things that involve captivity or a situation

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Speaker 1: where one person has control over the other. These are

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Speaker 1: things like being a prisoner of war, concentration camps, forced

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Speaker 1: non consensual sex work, or child exploitation, long term child

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Speaker 1: abuse and that's physical emotional or sexual, or long term

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Speaker 1: domestic abuse, which also can be physical, emotional or sexual. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and UM. C PTSD is also sometimes called disorders of

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Speaker 1: extreme stress not otherwise specified or does NOS, or in

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Speaker 1: the case of children and adolescents, developmental traumatic disorder and

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Speaker 1: kind of sort of maybe one of the reasons you

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Speaker 1: haven't heard of it, Bridget, is that it's relatively new.

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Speaker 1: The idea that we needed a new diagnosis other than

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Speaker 1: PTSD to describe the experience of people dealing with chronic

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Speaker 1: trauma was first proposed by Harvard's doctor Judith Herman. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't added as a separate diagnosis to the d s

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Speaker 1: MB after d d s MB four field tests found

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Speaker 1: it shared the same diagnostic criteria with PTSD. Is mentioned

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Speaker 1: in the d s m V, but doesn't have its

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Speaker 1: own entry. Also, um it does not address the cultural

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Speaker 1: variance when it comes to PTSD, which was a problem

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Speaker 1: pointed out in earlier editions. Nevertheless, a lot of professionals

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Speaker 1: believe it might need to be treated a little differently

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Speaker 1: c PTSD and believe that a misdiagnosis of PTSD or

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Speaker 1: maybe even a personality disorder will result in an incomplete

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Speaker 1: or incorrect treatment plan. Well, that makes so much sense because,

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Speaker 1: like you started the show talking about, people have issues

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Speaker 1: with PTSD when they're when they're traumas on their pain

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Speaker 1: go on dealt with and you're not talking to someone

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Speaker 1: when you're not seeing a therapist. And so if you

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Speaker 1: finally actually get to a point where you're talking to

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Speaker 1: someone to go and then have them say, oh, it's

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Speaker 1: PTSD not CPSD, Like that would be very problematic to

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Speaker 1: finally you get to a place where you think I

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Speaker 1: can talk to somebody and then have your issue be

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Speaker 1: misdiagnosed in that way or have them say, oh, you

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Speaker 1: actually have this personality disorder or whatever. Um. It almost

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Speaker 1: it would almost make the process that talking to someone

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Speaker 1: seem worthless in a kind of way. I would imagine, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's difficult in the first place to take that step.

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Speaker 1: And also not too many people specialize in it. So

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Speaker 1: since it is sort of new, there aren't a lot

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Speaker 1: of places you can go if you're looking online and

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Speaker 1: you suspect that this is what you're dealing with. There

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Speaker 1: aren't too many doctors or therapists you'll find that specialized

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Speaker 1: in it to be transparent. I was diagnosed to see

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Speaker 1: PTSD last year. Um, and it's funny the week that

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Speaker 1: I was diagnosed it was that was when it was

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Speaker 1: announced that like PTSD was going to be taken off insurance.

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Speaker 1: And I remember, like I just had to go home

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Speaker 1: and just like sit and try to stay calm, and

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Speaker 1: then I had to come back and record podcast. Um.

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Speaker 1: But it's it is a long, long battle and for

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Speaker 1: me at least you can think you've dealt with it,

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Speaker 1: and then something will happen and it just all comes back.

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Speaker 1: So my heart goes out to the listeners who have

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Speaker 1: written in UM and I understand how hard, how hard

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Speaker 1: it can be, and uh yeah, just just know that

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Speaker 1: there are options out there for you, and we will

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Speaker 1: be talking about some of those. But first, UM, so

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Speaker 1: the symptoms that separate c PTSD from PTSD. These could

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Speaker 1: include difficulty regulating your emotions UM and this could present

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Speaker 1: to suicidal thoughts. Explosive anger are a sadness that just

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Speaker 1: stays with you UM. Difficulty with certain aspects of consciousness

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Speaker 1: which could result in forgetting are a living traumatic events

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Speaker 1: or feelings of its association from one's body, poor self perception,

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Speaker 1: strong feelings of guilt, shame, helplessness, stigma, feeling like you're

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Speaker 1: different from everyone else, distorted perception when it comes to

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Speaker 1: the perpetrator, attributing them with total power, are becoming completely

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Speaker 1: preoccupied with them or revenge. Essentially, they just dominate your thoughts. Uh.

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Speaker 1: It impacts your current relationships as well. You might isolate

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Speaker 1: yourself because you feel distressful, or you might constantly be

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Speaker 1: looking out for a rescuer. And lastly, you might experience

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Speaker 1: a loss of meaning, our faith or whatever it is

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Speaker 1: that a system in your life um or perhaps you'll

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Speaker 1: just feel hopeless or overwhelmed with despair or all the above.

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Speaker 1: So something that's really interesting to note is that from

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Speaker 1: a biological standpoint, the cause is unknown, but studies and

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Speaker 1: animals show that trauma impacts the parts of the brain

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Speaker 1: related to memory and stress response. Researchers theorize that it's

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Speaker 1: the body's way of trying to make sure the same

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Speaker 1: thing doesn't happen again by reminding the survivor of the

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Speaker 1: event and keeping I'm hyper vigilant. Some researchers even think

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Speaker 1: that it might be genetic and that increased risk factors

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Speaker 1: include a family history of anxiety or depression, or lifestyle

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Speaker 1: factors like having a dangerous job. So some of these

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Speaker 1: researchers even sort of sort of think, you know, this

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Speaker 1: is your body's way or your brain's way of saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: be on alert because X y Z traumatic dangerous thing

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Speaker 1: happened in the past, So never relax, never let your

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Speaker 1: guard down, never feel okay, always be vigilance it doesn't

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Speaker 1: happen again. Yeah, it's kind of similar to the thing, um,

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Speaker 1: what is it called paper tigers? Where back when our ancestors,

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Speaker 1: if you saw a tiger, like your brain would recognize

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Speaker 1: patterns where they weren't there. So you're always going to

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Speaker 1: be afraid of maybe perhaps a rare event. But now

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Speaker 1: we don't have tigers, but we're still making these patterns

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Speaker 1: and seeing paper tigers. It's kind of like that, except

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Speaker 1: the thing really did happen to you, and your brain

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Speaker 1: is always just like never again amped up trying to

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Speaker 1: keep it from happening. Um. And it can be tricky

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Speaker 1: to properly diagnosed c PTSD because survivors might avoid talking

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Speaker 1: to professionals about the trauma, either because it's too painful

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Speaker 1: or difficult. On top of that, they might use on

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Speaker 1: healthy coping mechanisms like alcohol and or self harming. And

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Speaker 1: sometimes survivors are assumed to be of quote weak character

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Speaker 1: and then blamed for the abuse they endured, which is horrible,

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Speaker 1: that's awful. We really have to I mean, that's I

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Speaker 1: think a cultural change that we really have to get

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Speaker 1: rid of this attitude that if something happens to you,

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Speaker 1: you're weak, you're stupid, you're not strong, and that that

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Speaker 1: that is the cycle that people get stuck in or

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Speaker 1: they don't talk about these things. Yeah. On one side

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Speaker 1: of my family, Um, there's definitely an attitude of if

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Speaker 1: you have to go to therapy, you're weak. On the

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Speaker 1: other side, it's the complete opposite, like going to therapy

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Speaker 1: if you need it. But um, that that attitude I

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Speaker 1: think is not healthy, not correct. Another thing worth mentioning

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Speaker 1: is that people with CPTSD might seek treatment years after

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Speaker 1: the traumatic experiences have ended, because it does stick around,

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Speaker 1: and I think the average is like ten years later

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Speaker 1: people people. Yeah, yeah, so it sticks around and sometimes

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Speaker 1: it just happens later, like it's a delayed response. So

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Speaker 1: that's kind of an overview of what it is. But

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Speaker 1: now we're going to talk about having c PTSD in

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Speaker 1: the age of Me Too. But first we're going to

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Speaker 1: stop for a quick break for word from our sponsor,

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Speaker 1: and we're back, Thank you sponsor. So while the conversation

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Speaker 1: started by me Too has been a good thing, it

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Speaker 1: can be really triggering for c PTSD survivors and others

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Speaker 1: too when the trauma behind it is something related like

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Speaker 1: sexual assault. Of sexual assault victims experience PTSD symptoms in

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Speaker 1: the first weeks after the assault, and most people do

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Speaker 1: find ways to live with it um talk to people

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Speaker 1: about it, but a minority do develop long term PTSD,

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Speaker 1: and if the sexual assault was ongoing c PTSD the

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Speaker 1: new cycles draining on all of us. But it can

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Speaker 1: cause panic attacks and flashbacks for people who are dealing

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Speaker 1: with PTSD or c PTSD, and to be confronted with

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Speaker 1: it day after day, reminders of the trauma, to see

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Speaker 1: primarily women but men as well not be believed when

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Speaker 1: they share their experience. That can be extremely damaging. Having

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Speaker 1: your experience validated and believed is so important to treatment.

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Speaker 1: So seeing that not happen for others can it can

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Speaker 1: really suck. It can really put you back. Treatment takes time,

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Speaker 1: and it is like ten years on average for c PTSD,

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Speaker 1: and it is a daily struggle. And the constant exposure

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Speaker 1: to news about other sexual assaults are things that are

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Speaker 1: even tangentially related because a whole it's another thing you

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Speaker 1: have to deal with, and people in your life me

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Speaker 1: maybe talking about it, perhaps unfavorably, not knowing what you're

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Speaker 1: dealing with. So it's it's great that it's happening, but

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Speaker 1: mental health should be a part of the conversation. As well,

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Speaker 1: And UM, it can be exhausting to know your triggers

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Speaker 1: and to avoid them when they're all over the place,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes it's almost impossible to avoid them. Yeah, this

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Speaker 1: is a weird time that we're in. I agree that

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Speaker 1: me Too is obviously a really important conversation and one

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Speaker 1: that I think is vastly overdue. But I've I've had

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Speaker 1: that moment where you know, maybe maybe you want to

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Speaker 1: get through a work day and not be assaulted by

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Speaker 1: endless conversation about something traumatic that reminds you of something

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Speaker 1: that you've experienced. You know. Um, it can feel OK,

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Speaker 1: it's something you can't turn off. And I've had those

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Speaker 1: times where I had to just log off because it's

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Speaker 1: just too much. Um. I will never forget. When I

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Speaker 1: was working at MSNBC. This was when that football player

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Speaker 1: I think it was Ray Rice, was on on a

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Speaker 1: security video like punching his I think it was his

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Speaker 1: girlfriend or his wife had punching her to the point

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Speaker 1: where she was unconscious and kind of carrying her lifeless

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Speaker 1: body around. And this was the news story of the week,

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Speaker 1: And I worked under this giant, massive TV screen that

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Speaker 1: was literally playing this footage on a loop over and

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Speaker 1: over and over and over again. I like, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I I think about it now, my my, you know,

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Speaker 1: my fur gets up because I just remember how that felt.

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Speaker 1: It felt like a kind of torture, and there was

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Speaker 1: no way to turn it off. There was no unless

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Speaker 1: I quit my job. There was, you know, no way

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Speaker 1: to to stop it. And that was a short term thing,

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Speaker 1: you know. A couple of days later, the news story

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Speaker 1: changed and there was some new awful thing happening, and

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Speaker 1: that was less traumatic for me. But imagine how hard

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Speaker 1: it is to I feel like that always. You know,

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Speaker 1: then there's feel like there's no escape, but it's just constantly, constantly, constantly,

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Speaker 1: And in this era of me too, I think that's

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Speaker 1: how it can feel sometimes. Yeah, And I it is

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Speaker 1: an interesting thing when you work in a field like

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Speaker 1: like media where you sort of have to deal with it.

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Speaker 1: And that was a really hard thing for me to learn,

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Speaker 1: um when I first started here, because you don't want

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Speaker 1: to at least I didn't want to talk to my

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Speaker 1: bosses about it. But I was like, how how else

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Speaker 1: am I going to be able to if I need

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Speaker 1: to have a reason to step away, So it can

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Speaker 1: be it can be really difficult to navigate in the

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Speaker 1: workplace too. Yeah, but again that just goes back to

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Speaker 1: this need to get away from stigma. Because listen, if

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Speaker 1: your boss is interested in having Annie show up to

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Speaker 1: be her best self and do the best job she

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Speaker 1: can at work for the good of the company and

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Speaker 1: for the good of Annie as a person, your boss

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Speaker 1: should be in And I'm I'm using bus like now,

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Speaker 1: I'm not talking about like a specific boss here. I

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Speaker 1: mean this you know the BOS a while ago. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure I didn't know this person, but yeah, I

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Speaker 1: guess what I'm saying is that it should be in

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Speaker 1: their best interests to make sure that you can do that,

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Speaker 1: that you can show up as your best self every day.

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Speaker 1: And we need to abandon this idea that when you

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Speaker 1: walk through your workplace doors, all the other stuff that's

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Speaker 1: on your mind, your family, what's in the news, the

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Speaker 1: social climate. You know, Donald Trump is gonna kill us all.

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Speaker 1: You know, someone that you would admired us a child

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Speaker 1: or not to be a rapist. You know, you were raped,

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Speaker 1: your sister was raped, like all of this stuff that

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Speaker 1: is that we carry around in our on our backs

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Speaker 1: every day. It's ridiculous to expect that when you walk

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Speaker 1: into your office, all of that gets put put away

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Speaker 1: like at the door, because it doesn't. And we need

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Speaker 1: to acknowledge our full selves in the workplace. And sometimes

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Speaker 1: that looks like saying, yeah, I just spent the entire

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Speaker 1: day being triggered us because men are awful and this

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Speaker 1: is the reality of being a woman at working woman

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Speaker 1: in the world. And sorry, my mental health is important.

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Speaker 1: And if you want me to show up as my

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Speaker 1: best self, you know I need to step away, or

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Speaker 1: I need to go for a walk, I need to

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Speaker 1: do whatever. I need to not be moderating comments with

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Speaker 1: people being horrible like whatever it is, whatever that looks

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Speaker 1: like for you. I would just love to see a

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Speaker 1: workplace culture that understood what we all understand. Right Like

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying right now isn't mind blowing to anyone.

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Speaker 1: If you've ever been broken up with and then had

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Speaker 1: to go to work and smile because that was your job.

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Speaker 1: We all we all have experience this one way or another.

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Speaker 1: So why are we pretending like it's not reality? Like

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Speaker 1: why can't we just have workplaces that acknowledge what we

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Speaker 1: all plainly see and experience as how reality is playing out?

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Speaker 1: You do know what do you know what I mean. Oh, absolutely, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's definitely a stigma there. But on the flip side,

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Speaker 1: at least in my case, I think my boss would

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Speaker 1: have completely understood. But I could not have that conversation.

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Speaker 1: I did not have the strength to have that conversation

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Speaker 1: at the time. UM. So I didn't like my My

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Speaker 1: avoidance game is for the worst is on points. I

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Speaker 1: have gotten very good at that. UM But I do

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Speaker 1: think that we need to be able to have those

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Speaker 1: conversations where we can in the workplace, because yeah, don't

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Speaker 1: you want the best work environment and employees that you

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Speaker 1: can have. So I'm curious how you have navigated that, Like,

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Speaker 1: as someone who is dealing with this and we know

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Speaker 1: it's a something that you have to deal with all

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Speaker 1: the time, Like for people who are listening, how have

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Speaker 1: you navigated better? How have you not navigated it? Like

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Speaker 1: how does it play out for you? Are you doing

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Speaker 1: things to navigate this or is it just something that's

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Speaker 1: going to be always a you know, everyday struggle. It's

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Speaker 1: a it's an everyday struggle. I think no matter what, UM,

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Speaker 1: I did figure out triggers and when I got this job,

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Speaker 1: I it was really hard at first, but I if

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Speaker 1: I can anticipate something, then it's much easier, Like I

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Speaker 1: can prepare myself for it, and I hardly ever get

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Speaker 1: really triggered or upset by stuff at work anymore. It's

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Speaker 1: the things that surprise me that get me, Like I

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Speaker 1: remember a year ago, because again, like you deal with

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Speaker 1: it for a long time, right, and you think, why,

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Speaker 1: I've I've learned and I know what's gonna set me

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Speaker 1: off on what's not. I went to go see mo

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Speaker 1: Wanna and within thirty minutes, I was like, I've got

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Speaker 1: to leave, and I was in the bathroom crying over

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Speaker 1: what was it about Molanna. I just didn't believe that

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Speaker 1: there would be this young girl and this big dude

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Speaker 1: alone on a boat together, nothing would go wrong. There's

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Speaker 1: some in my heart was like nope, which is awful.

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Speaker 1: And I've since seen Mohanna and I love it. But

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Speaker 1: I didn't know, like you can't prepare yourself for everything. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I had. That's interesting that you say that,

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Speaker 1: because I remember a very similar experience. Um this was

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Speaker 1: a couple of years ago. I had gone to the

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Speaker 1: movies to see, um this movie south Side with me,

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Speaker 1: and it's if you've seen it it's a really cute,

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Speaker 1: romantic movie about Barack and Michelle Obama's first date when

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Speaker 1: they had first met when they were in law school.

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Speaker 1: And when I saw the movie, the trailer that proceeded

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Speaker 1: it was a trailer for Nate Parker's Birth of a Nation, which,

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Speaker 1: if you know, there was a whole controversy where his

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Speaker 1: background of having allegedly raped a classmate in college and

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Speaker 1: that classmate later committing suicide. That was like that that

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Speaker 1: conversation dominated the premiere of that movie, and so for me,

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Speaker 1: I could not think about Birth of a Nation or

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Speaker 1: see anything about it without thinking about, you know, rape

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Speaker 1: and sexual assault. And so watching this trailer really put

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Speaker 1: me in a headspace of you know, being sort of

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Speaker 1: like I wouldn't say I was triggered, but it was

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Speaker 1: top of mine. And so then seeing a movie that's

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Speaker 1: about two people that I really admire going on a

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Speaker 1: sweet date and sort of the kind of one of

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Speaker 1: the kind of running jokes of the movie, and I

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Speaker 1: guess their relationship is that when Barack Obama first met Michelle,

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Speaker 1: Michelle didn't want to date him and was like very

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Speaker 1: clear she was like, its just some scrubby legal guy

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Speaker 1: in my practice, he's younger than me. I don't like him,

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Speaker 1: and so in the movie, she keeps saying, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to go out on a date with you.

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Speaker 1: And the audience is very curly meant to find this

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Speaker 1: as charming and heartwarming, and it is charming and heartwarming,

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Speaker 1: Like I don't want to crap on that movie. But

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Speaker 1: because I had just seen that trailer about birth of

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Speaker 1: a nation and I was in my head, all I

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Speaker 1: was thinking of is sexual assault right, sexual assault RPE.

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Speaker 1: Within that framework, I could not experience what I what

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Speaker 1: I logically understood on screen to be a charming love story.

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Speaker 1: And of course they get married and they're the best

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Speaker 1: on blah blah blah. But in that moment, I just thought, wow,

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Speaker 1: I can't see this as sweet and romantic. I can

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Speaker 1: only see it as threatening. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's things

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Speaker 1: like that that I find the most the most challenging,

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Speaker 1: because you can't prepare yourself for them. Um and I

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Speaker 1: do have some some things that we'll talk about later,

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Speaker 1: like if you find yourself in a situation where Mona

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Speaker 1: has upset you, that you can do, but we'll come

431
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 1: back to that. And I have to say, you know,

432
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: as I just got my start teaching in the college setting.

433
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: What you just said, I feel like makes the conversation

434
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: around trigger warnings in places like college classrooms. No one

435
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 1: in a classroom setting should have to leave crying if

436
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 1: they can help it, right, like, if you can avoid

437
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,880
Speaker 1: that happening. And so when that conversation around oh, trigger warnings,

438
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 1: our kids are so caddled, blah blah blah. This is science, Like,

439
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 1: this is not people being coddled little snowflakes. This is

440
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: medical research about how about people's mental and physiological responses

441
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: to trauma. To boil that down into look at these

442
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 1: little snowflakes, you know, don't want to get upset because

443
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: of whatever. It's so backward and so wrong, you know,

444
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 1: And it makes me sad that we are not providing

445
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 1: an environment, as you mentioned before, in our workplaces that

446
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: makes room for this, but especially for young people who

447
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 1: are just developing and in school, you know, being told

448
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 1: that their traumas are not real, that they're that they're

449
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: you know, backed by science, busy logical responses to traumatic stuff.

450
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: Oh there, that's just a joke. You're a snowflake. Yeah,

451
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 1: that that is not helpful at all, not at all

452
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 1: UM and there aren't specific studies yet looking into the

453
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 1: impact of me too on survivors of sexual assault, but

454
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,199
Speaker 1: a study from two thousands six found that when a

455
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: survivor of a crime saw or read anything about their case,

456
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 1: they were very likely to experience negative emotions. Six reported

457
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 1: sadness and reported fear. Other studies suggest that just seeing

458
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 1: traumatic stories like this UM will increase the likelihood of

459
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 1: developing PTSD. In particular, there was a pretty big study

460
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: after UM nine eleven on New Yorkers that saw witness

461
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:56,159
Speaker 1: nine eleven UM. Another aspect that can be traumatizing is

462
00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: for trans people who have survived sexual assault. And despite

463
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 1: you're seeing some of the highest rates of sexual assault

464
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 1: have been kind of left out of the me too

465
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,719
Speaker 1: movement UM, and this is seen by some trans folks

466
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 1: as just another example of their experiences being ignored, and

467
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: that in itself can be triggering. And it's the same

468
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: for nonsense and people of color because it's mostly been

469
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: me two, has mostly been about affluent white women. Well,

470
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 1: that's just like what you said earlier, how important it is,

471
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 1: Like the first step to dealing with these issues are

472
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 1: being validated, being heard. If you feel like your experience

473
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 1: is just not going to be validated, not going to

474
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: be heard. If you say it, someone's gonna be like, oh, yeah, yeah,

475
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: I hear you trans women, But did you hear about

476
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: this affluent white woman who is not trans? You know? Yeah?

477
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: If that's if that's the methode that you're getting, then

478
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 1: you can't get that. You can't take that first important

479
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: step right And um. Betty Tang wrote about about this

480
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: over at Slate, about this whole me too and c

481
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: PTSD and PTSD and um. The article was called how

482
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: to find Shelter in the Storm of Me Too? And UM,

483
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: I want to read this quote. Many of my patients

484
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: were re traumatized by Donald Trump's election. Post election, they

485
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: experienced a renewed sense of dismissal that a self professed

486
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: pussy grabbing man with multiple allegations of sexual assault stacked

487
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: up against him could still be elevated to the most

488
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 1: powerful leadership position in the world. The tacit message was

489
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: as a crime, sexual assault did not matter, and as

490
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: an individuals survivors lives did not matter. This point had

491
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: been underscored time and time again. Within the space of

492
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: a year, Me Too launched a global reckoning about the

493
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: importance of speaking up about all forms of sexual violence.

494
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 1: Silence breaking women were named Times Magazines Person the Year

495
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 1: for the shift has been momentous and emotionally grueling. As

496
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: galvanizing as me Too has been, it has also been

497
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: extremely overwhelming. This is the double edged sword of exposing trauma,

498
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 1: as long held sufferings pour forth relief and horror both

499
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: our eyes from my most vulnerable patients, this has been

500
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: destabilizing and confusing. When their social media feeds are flooded

501
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: with detailed trauma histories, Some questioned their decisions not to

502
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 1: disclose their's, while others wondered whether their assaults were quote

503
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: as bad or worse. Yeah, I I plus a million

504
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 1: to what she said. I have this theory that that

505
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: that's why we see me too, was because we couldn't

506
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 1: stop self proclaimed pussy a grabber from ascending to the

507
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: highest office in the land. Right. We couldn't stop that,

508
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: But we can stop Harvey Weinstein. We can stop you know,

509
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: your your boss, right. I think the anger at not

510
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 1: being able to staff Trump and watching him a send

511
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,239
Speaker 1: and be so awful to women and everyone and just

512
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: be a nightmare. I think it triggered this anger that

513
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: was in out of all of us who are marginalized,

514
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: who are women, who are trans or people of color,

515
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: I'm saying, we couldn't stop it then, but we can

516
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: stop it now. And so maybe it's not Donald Trump,

517
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: but you know I can speak up and and you know,

518
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: call out my abuser and and that that is sort

519
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: of a way of feeling empowered even when you know

520
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 1: you can't, Like we still have a you know, admitted

521
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: pussy grabber in the White House, right and UM. On

522
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: the flip side of that, a lot of folks have

523
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: expressed guilt for not being able to speak out about

524
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: their own experiences, which just adds on to what you're

525
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,479
Speaker 1: already dealing with. And therapists say they are different levels

526
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,479
Speaker 1: of engagement in me Too. For survivors UM maybe signal

527
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: boosting UM sharing a story in your own feed, but

528
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: for some disengagement is key for their mental health. If

529
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: you see a post from a friend about me Too,

530
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: therapists recommend to comment thinking of you or or even

531
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: a love or angry face emoji toes show that you

532
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: you heard it UM or you saw it, but to

533
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: not ask for details or to not try to be

534
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: their their therapist. Oh my god, I mean I've seen

535
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 1: that play out on Facebook where somebody talks about something

536
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: good happened to them and you see somebody who I'm

537
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: sure as well meaning just making a real ass of

538
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 1: themselves in the comments, and you're thinking, show respect, validate it.

539
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: You saw it, you heard it. But people don't want

540
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 1: to be necessarily giving you the details of their of

541
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 1: their traumatic event, and they don't owe you that right

542
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: like survive. Like I'm when a survivor speaks out, I

543
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 1: applaud them, but survivors don't owe you their story. It

544
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 1: should not take all of us splitting our risks and

545
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: showing you our blood to get people to do something

546
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: like like you do not owe someone your meat story

547
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: of survival. It's like what you're saying, it's a double

548
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 1: edged thing because it should not take waves and waves

549
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: and waves of people telling you all the dirty details

550
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: about what the most traumatic thing that ever happened to

551
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: them to get people to act and be like, yeah,

552
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 1: this is a problem. And if people speak up, more

553
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: power to them. I applaud you, but you don't owe

554
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 1: any but at your story. And if speaking up doesn't

555
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: feel right to you, we should still as a society

556
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: be able to say this is going on and it's

557
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: not okay, even if you're not, you know, not giving

558
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 1: someone every detail of something, the most traumatic thing that

559
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: happened to you, you know, absolutely. I mean I remember

560
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: seeing a lot of that, because one of the reasons

561
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: I avoid social media is largely stuff like this. UM.

562
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: But I remember when me too was first happening, a

563
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 1: lot of tweets along the lines of like, the owners

564
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 1: shouldn't be on on women who have experienced this to

565
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: to make changes, but that that's what it took, or

566
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: at least that's what it took for this conversation to

567
00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:00,080
Speaker 1: start happening. Um. Another possible impact of me too for

568
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 1: survivors is that more people are seeking treatment compared to

569
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: the same time period. In sixteen, the Rape Abuse and

570
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 1: Incest National Network received more calls in Whether that's because

571
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,320
Speaker 1: of re traumatization or an increased belief that their stories

572
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: will be believed, We're not sure, but either way, it

573
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 1: is happening. And something else that it's important to point

574
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 1: out is that a lot of these abusers might be

575
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: scared or anxious about being found out as abusers and

576
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,280
Speaker 1: as creeps. And that might lead them to make threats

577
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 1: to whoever they know that that you know would speak

578
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 1: up about that, And so that's something that we need

579
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 1: to stay vigilant for as well. In the in the

580
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: in the wake of me Too, Yes and Um, assistant

581
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: professor of Clinical psychology and psychiatry and clinical staff member

582
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 1: at Penn Center's Treatment and Study of Anxiety or c

583
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: t s A a new as Nanni said when discussing this,

584
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 1: I've had women in the middle of the me Too

585
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,839
Speaker 1: movement who say I can't own it like these women can,

586
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 1: and I say, you don't need to. That's the great

587
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 1: thing about this movement. You can own as much of

588
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 1: it as you want. You don't need to share your

589
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 1: trauma to get over your trauma, except with your therapist.

590
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 1: And while me too can be traumatizing for a lot

591
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 1: of people, for some it has been healing and maybe

592
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: it's been both at the same time. Yeah, I think

593
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 1: we just have to allow space for that that it

594
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: can be both. It can be traumatizing, but it can

595
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 1: also be healing. You know, we can we can just

596
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: help that duality and that's okay, mm hmm. And this

597
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: finally brings us to UM some some treatment options, some

598
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: things you can do if this is something you're dealing with.

599
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 1: But first we're going to take one more quick break

600
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: for a word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank

601
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: you sponsor. After hearing all of this, as you might imagine,

602
00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: c PTSD can be debilitating and current research is looking

603
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,240
Speaker 1: into more specialized ways to deal with it. But treatment

604
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 1: options do exist. Uh, there are things you can do

605
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: to help treat c PTSD. The first one and most

606
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,800
Speaker 1: obvious is going to a therapist if that's an option

607
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 1: for you. I know, personally this has been really hard

608
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 1: for me, like finding the right person again with the

609
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,919
Speaker 1: whole insurance thing. It can be really discouraging. But if

610
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: this is something that is available to you, is a

611
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: possibility for you, don't give up. Yeah, it can be tough,

612
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 1: but you know, if it's something that you feel like

613
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: you need to do for yourself, just tell yourself, you know,

614
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,359
Speaker 1: this is a process, and that first step is making

615
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,879
Speaker 1: a call. Maybe that first step is going online. I'm

616
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 1: doing a Google search. Maybe that first step is talking

617
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 1: to a friend who might be able to get you

618
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: someone to talk to. You know, like, take that first step,

619
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: even though it might be hard, and and like I

620
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: said at the top, since c PTSD is is relatively new,

621
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: there aren't too many people that specialize in it, and

622
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 1: misdiagnosis is pretty common. It can be hard to get

623
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 1: it covered by your insurance here in the US, so

624
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: unfortunately is not an option for everyone, but if it

625
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: is for you, we definitely recommend it. If you do

626
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,240
Speaker 1: go to a professional, they might employ cognitive behavioral therapy

627
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 1: or exposure therapy, or acceptance therapy, or this new one

628
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: called eye movement desensitization and reprocessing, which is really interesting. UM.

629
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: One of the first goals of treatment is called stabilization,

630
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: and this refers to the ability to separate the traumatic

631
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,399
Speaker 1: event from the present by using grounding techniques. And these

632
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: can be pretty literal, like walking around barefoot to keep

633
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 1: you in the safety of the here and now, just

634
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 1: something kind of physical that that puts you in the moment.

635
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: Other things that you'll hear a lot when it comes

636
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: to treating both PTSD and c PTSD UM. It might

637
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: sound simple, but it could be a challenge if you're

638
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 1: a survivor of something traumatic. Things like learning how to

639
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 1: manage stress, learning how to deal with flashbacks, and knowing

640
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 1: what triggers them, having a health strategy for emotion management

641
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,840
Speaker 1: and finding healthy long term coping mechanisms, and really figuring

642
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: out a way to improve your sleep so that you

643
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: don't just feel like garbage all the time. Yeah, and

644
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,760
Speaker 1: all of those if you if you look up online,

645
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 1: they're like walkthroughs. If you're thinking, well, how do I

646
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 1: improve my sleep? There are um there are documents and

647
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 1: resources available to you online that will tell you, like

648
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 1: step by step. Try this. Another important one, and this

649
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:33,720
Speaker 1: one one was a big one for me, is finding

650
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 1: a support group, reaching out to friends and family. Those

651
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: are generally good steps for for mental health. Educating yourself

652
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 1: and the people in your life about the symptoms and

653
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 1: risk associated with c PTSD and PTSD is another recommendation.

654
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 1: I would also add, you know, even if you're not

655
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: someone who's struggling with PTSD or c PTSD, you know,

656
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 1: I remember after Anthony Bourdine died, the kind of national

657
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 1: converse station was, you know, talk to someone if you

658
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 1: are having an issue, you know, don't suffer in silence.

659
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 1: But I also and I think that's important, and so

660
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: I'm glad that you said that, But I also want

661
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 1: to implore folks, reach out, you know people. As we

662
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 1: discussed today, it's hard to talk about this. One of

663
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 1: the hallmarks of someone having PTSD is that they have

664
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 1: not it's hard to talk about and you don't. You

665
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 1: put it off, you don't talk about it, and it

666
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 1: might not be a conversation about the person who is

667
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 1: suffering speaking up. We should all taken upon ourselves, whether

668
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 1: we are struggling with issues or not, to talk to

669
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:36,720
Speaker 1: our our people and be like, hey, are you okay?

670
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 1: Do you need to talk? You know, and not just

671
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 1: waiting for them to come to us. I guess that's

672
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Yeah, for sure. And at its core,

673
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 1: what most professionals believe is key to treating c PTSD

674
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 1: is to restore the survivor's sense of control and to

675
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 1: empower them, and parts of that can include healing relationships

676
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: or allowing yourself a period of mourning and um finding

677
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 1: ways to reconnect with your life. So if this is

678
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:11,359
Speaker 1: something that you're you're struggling with, or that you think

679
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,879
Speaker 1: you might be struggling with, UM, there is hope. There

680
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 1: is hope. It's not it's not easy by any means,

681
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: but there are things that you can do and there

682
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,840
Speaker 1: are also a lot of resources for you. Um. The

683
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,320
Speaker 1: National Center for PTSD is a good place to start

684
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 1: here in the US. They have an app, They have

685
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 1: an app on your phone, and the nonprofit out of

686
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: the Storm There there is a lot of there's a

687
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 1: lot of good stuff out there for for how to

688
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:49,839
Speaker 1: deal with it and encourage anyone who thinks they're dealing

689
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 1: with it or maybe not, maybe someone in their life

690
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:53,399
Speaker 1: is to go and to go and look it up,

691
00:40:53,920 --> 00:41:03,240
Speaker 1: because just having simple coping techniques are yeah, stress management. Um,

692
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 1: it's super helpful, super helpful. Yeah. And I mean if

693
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 1: you need help, get help and and talk to your

694
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 1: friends and take care of each other and any I

695
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 1: have to say, I am grateful for you for really

696
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: modeling what that could look like and being so transparent

697
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: on the show about these issues because it really can

698
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 1: help somebody. Yeah. I struggled with it whether or not

699
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 1: I was going to talk about it, but UM, I

700
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 1: know for me hearing someone else talk about it and

701
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 1: just seeing that they were having this life, that they

702
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:42,839
Speaker 1: were successful and happy, and that they had like not

703
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,359
Speaker 1: overcome it completely, but they had found ways to deal

704
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 1: with it and still be happy and fulfilled and that

705
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 1: was so valuable to me, So if it was valuable

706
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 1: to anyone else, I I hope. I hope so totally,

707
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: because I mean you, yeah, you are a successful, dynamic,

708
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,839
Speaker 1: happy person and that you know, having these challenges does

709
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 1: not mean that you're not those things. You can you

710
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 1: can be all of those things at once. Yeah. I'm

711
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 1: happy that folks are modeling that because it is important. Yeah.

712
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 1: And and one thing, one disclaimer I would like to

713
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: include because I did do this as well for a while,

714
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: as I would see people who I thought were quote

715
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,839
Speaker 1: dealing with it better than me, But you don't know

716
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: what what's going on outside of when you're seeing them, right,

717
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 1: and that's not helpful to you. They it's a struggle,

718
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 1: and some people are better, are better they they just

719
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 1: you don't know what they're dealing with outside. You don't

720
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: see all of them. So don't think like you aren't

721
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 1: enough for you're you're not as strong as this person.

722
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 1: Because people deal with things in different ways, People present

723
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: things in different ways, So it just is different for

724
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 1: different people. And I would put money on someone that

725
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: you think is dealing better with it and you is

726
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: just dealing with it differently. Are when you be more

727
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 1: in private, or maybe not at all. Yeah, that's I mean.

728
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 1: I just finished watching Sharp Objects. No spoilers, but there's

729
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 1: a great line where um, someone tells the main character, Oh,

730
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 1: I'm so happy that you tackled your demons, and she says,

731
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 1: my demons are not remotely tackled, merely concussed. Love it,

732
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 1: Love it. So that brings us to the end of

733
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 1: this episode and two. Listener mail Alex Route, I love

734
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 1: hearing your feminist voices every week, even with laryngitis. I

735
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: wanted to thank you for doing an episode on name

736
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 1: changes in marriage. This episode really resonated with me because

737
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 1: I took my husband's name when I got married and

738
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 1: changed it back a year later. I actually wrote an

739
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 1: article about it that was published on XO Jane. During

740
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: my engagement, I debated whether to change my name, and

741
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: it ended up deciding to change it. I immediately question

742
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 1: into my decision, but I decided to stick with my

743
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 1: new name for a while in case it grew on me. Spoiler.

744
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: It didn't actually like my husband's last name, and it

745
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 1: sounded nice with my first name. But I just couldn't

746
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 1: get over losing such a big part of my identity.

747
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 1: I love my birth name, and, like you talked about

748
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 1: on the podcast, my name is intertwined with so many

749
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 1: aspects of my life. Plus, I'm a huge feminist and

750
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 1: taking my husband's name doesn't align with my values. I'm

751
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 1: actually embarrassed that I succumbed to society's pressure to take

752
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: my husband's name in the first place. About a year

753
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 1: into my marriage, I changed my name back. It was

754
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 1: a huge hassle, but it was so worth it. After

755
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 1: using a different last name for a year, reading or

756
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,840
Speaker 1: hearing my full birth name again is the best feeling.

757
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:43,759
Speaker 1: I did get a lot of interesting reactions, though. My

758
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: husband was very supportive, and so were a lot of

759
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 1: my family and friends. But a lot of people, strangers, friends,

760
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 1: and acquaintances are like, We're confused, shocked, or even outraged.

761
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,879
Speaker 1: Some of my husband's friends even called him to ask

762
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,239
Speaker 1: if he was mad, or to say that they disagreed

763
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 1: with what he had done, which was dis pointing on

764
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: so many levels. I had to go to court to

765
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: change my name back, and even the judge assumed I

766
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 1: was getting divorced. I don't regret it at all, though,

767
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,879
Speaker 1: I'm telling you, we got so much email about this

768
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:17,839
Speaker 1: and just every email was unique, and um, I'm loving it.

769
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 1: That is interesting to me that people called her husband like,

770
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 1: I don't agree with that your wife was doing. Just

771
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: so you know, I don't agree with what's happening in

772
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,319
Speaker 1: your marriage, Just so you're aware. Can you imagine, like

773
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 1: what a busybody, what a things say? Oh? How he

774
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 1: wrote The episode on name changes after marriage really hit

775
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: home for me because it was a major point of

776
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,320
Speaker 1: contention for me and my now wife throughout our engagement,

777
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 1: which lasted two full years because we were waiting for

778
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:52,239
Speaker 1: it to be legal to get married in Texas. From

779
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 1: a pretty early age, middle school, maybe before I even

780
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 1: had an inkling, I was queer. I was pretty sat

781
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 1: up not changing my name for a spouse. It was

782
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: all hypothetic, But I was a pretty contrary kid even

783
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 1: before I knew to call myself a feminist. Once we

784
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 1: were engaged, I had an even stronger desire that neither

785
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 1: of us should change our name because we felt that

786
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:11,799
Speaker 1: it was super head or normative. And I've already felt

787
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 1: pretty overwhelmed the sheer head oronormity about entire wedding industry.

788
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 1: It turns out my wife was equally set on sharing

789
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 1: a family name. It was important to her that we

790
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,240
Speaker 1: established an identity as a family. Well. I was focusing

791
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 1: on the fact that marriage wouldn't erase us as individuals,

792
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 1: because the whole thing about codependent lesbians that I was

793
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: pushing back onto. I think she didn't want to hyphenate

794
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 1: and saddle future kids with a hyphen A reasonable position

795
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: if you think about what those kids would face if

796
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: they grow up and get married and face the same debate.

797
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 1: Do we just have infinitely compounding hyphens? Coming back to

798
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: that thought later. Anyway, the reasonable solution was obviously that

799
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:47,400
Speaker 1: she would take my last name. She was happy to

800
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 1: do so, and I was really the one uncomfortable with it,

801
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:51,879
Speaker 1: which I think is probably a different dynamic than straight

802
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 1: couple's face. I also have some professional credit built up

803
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: with my family name, which is more unusual than my

804
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 1: wife's maiden name, and yet totally ikey that we call it. That.

805
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 1: My parents and grandparents have lived and done business and

806
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 1: our smallest town for a long time, so there are

807
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 1: practical reasons too. I just really really didn't want to

808
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 1: do it, and we put off the decision until literally

809
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 1: the week before our wedding. We ultimately decided that she

810
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 1: would take my last name and they both take her

811
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 1: maiden name as our middle name. Problem solved, except we

812
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,359
Speaker 1: found out in the aftermath of the wedding that either

813
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 1: partner can change their last name on the basis of

814
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 1: a marriag certificate, and you can drop your middle name

815
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:28,360
Speaker 1: in favor of your maiden name with no extra paperwork.

816
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 1: But for me to change my middle name only over

817
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 1: require a court order and a public notice in a newspaper,

818
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 1: both of which cost money, so I still haven't legally

819
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 1: changed my middle name. Also, even for my wife to

820
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 1: change her middle name in the quote usual way was

821
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 1: tons of paperwork to a bunch of different places. It's

822
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 1: not like there's some central office you write to and

823
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 1: they just tell everyone. The d m V does and

824
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 1: talk to the Social Security Administration and doesn't talk to

825
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,360
Speaker 1: the Post Office, doesn't talk to the State Department, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

826
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 1: It's a draconian nightmare. I was also pondering what it

827
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,240
Speaker 1: means that you can have so much family identity wrapped

828
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 1: up and keeping your name when my virtue of doing so,

829
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,439
Speaker 1: you're potentially keeping your own kids from having that same

830
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 1: sense of family identity if they don't share a last

831
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 1: name with one or both of their parents, how do

832
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 1: we reconcile that our reason for preserving the thing is

833
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: also literally destroying at the same time. Sure there's hypher nation,

834
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: but that's just pushing the buck down the road one

835
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 1: generation one. If two hyph native kids marry each other,

836
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 1: standardized forms don't have that many boxes. I have no

837
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 1: idea what the answer is. Obviously, in the past we've

838
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 1: just solved it by only caring about patriolenage. So it's

839
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 1: not like this is a new issue or by itself

840
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 1: a reason to change your name. But it's something I

841
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 1: was thinking about during the episode. Maybe we just need

842
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: to go super old school with naming conventions and tack

843
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 1: on a new son daughter child of surname with every generation.

844
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 1: Um Hallie, thank you for this letter. First of all,

845
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 1: it's it's I'm happy that folks who are not in

846
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 1: heterosexual pairings are writing in to tell us what the

847
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 1: experience is like for them, because I swear as you said,

848
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:02,879
Speaker 1: and it's like a frient interesting story situation every time.

849
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 1: But also I don't think I really knew how because

850
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:08,439
Speaker 1: I'm not married. I don't think I really knew how

851
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:12,720
Speaker 1: complicated it can be logistically to change your name. Oh yeah,

852
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 1: I've been shocked at how expensive and how just time consuming.

853
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 1: And somebody wrote in and said, yeah, you had to

854
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,399
Speaker 1: announce him the paper if you changed like I think

855
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 1: it was if the husband took the less. If the

856
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 1: husband changed his name, you had to announce it in

857
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 1: the paper or something. That's so old fats, that's like

858
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 1: the most I mean, people don't really get the paper anymore, right,

859
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 1: Like that's such how old. Well, yeah, that's I mean,

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00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: that's another thing true. I mean it's like it's what

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00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 1: it's like old school with an old school you know,

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00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. Yes, Well, yeah, thanks to

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00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 1: both of them for writing in. We'll we'll be hearing

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00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: a lot more from listeners because we've gotten so much

865
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:54,439
Speaker 1: mail about it. Um in future episodes as a listener mail.

866
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 1: We just got to do a full episode. We really should.

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00:49:57,719 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 1: I thank us reading them the whole time with the

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00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 1: ball ring, but we need to figure something out, yeah,

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00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 1: because it's been just so rewarding and stunning. Honestly, how

870
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: many letters and other communications we've gotten about this. But

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00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:13,400
Speaker 1: in the meantime, if you would like to write to

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00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 1: as yourself. You can our email as mom stuff it

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00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 1: has to Works dot com. You can also find us

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00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 1: on social media on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast and

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00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 1: on Instagram Stuff Mom Never Told You And thanks as

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00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 1: always to our producer Dylan Fagan