WEBVTT - Hayes Carll 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:12.360 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sense Podcast. 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:17.040 My guest today songweather musician Hey. He's called Hey. He's 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:19.000 good to have you on the podcast. Hey, Bob, it's 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:22.160 great to be here. So to what degree has COVID 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:26.560 nine team affected your career? Touring and Saturday Boy? Way 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:29.520 more than I could have imagined. I mean it initially, 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:35.080 it ended it. You know, I was I was in Seattle, 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:37.680 just about to start a tour and we did one 0:00:37.680 --> 0:00:40.839 show at half capacity and and we just canceled it 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:45.879 and flew home. And UM, I was fortunate to be 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:47.880 had I'd been on the road for a couple of months, 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:52.640 so I was in decent shape financially and um, and 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:54.480 you know, nobody knew how long this was gonna go on. 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:56.880 So we thought we were okay and just try to 0:00:56.880 --> 0:01:00.800 do some fundraising and help people out. UM. But then 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:03.440 as it continued, you know, it started to hit me. 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:06.039 The way I make my living, or had made my 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:09.959 living for the most part for twenty years, was gone, 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:12.080 and we didn't know when it was gonna come back. 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:14.920 So we started doing a lot of people did and 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:22.640 doing live streams. I had done that years before on Facebook. 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:25.760 I used to do a showdown in Austin at a 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:29.240 place called the Saxon Pub and I would we would 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:32.000 stream it on Facebook. We just never thought to monetize it. 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:34.320 I thought, how cool is this The people in Ireland 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:37.040 or Ireland are watching my show, or people in Idaho 0:01:37.200 --> 0:01:40.080 or wherever. I was reaching all these people, and that 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:42.080 was significant to me. And I knew there was something there, 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:45.680 but I just never thought to put a tip jar up. 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:50.600 And um so when the pandemic came, I had some 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:53.560 experience with that and and and so now with the 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:57.520 ability to for people to support you, um we were 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:00.960 up and running. And uh so I started doing them 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:07.920 and and uh I was afraid that, you know, every week, 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:11.000 I just thought this isn't sustainable because it was people 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:14.119 were being very generous and and but at a certain point, 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:17.079 I thought the bottom was gonna fall out. So I 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:22.959 started working two. Um. I made it a priority to 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:28.720 show my appreciation and decided that I wanted my show 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:30.720 and then supporting my show to be the last thing 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:33.160 that they took out of the budget, you know, the 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:37.960 sort of discretionary income. So my wife's a musician as well, 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:40.359 and she was doing shows and she was sending postcards 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:43.640 to people, um who had supported her, and so I 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:47.200 started doing the same. And then I started making a 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:52.560 new postcard every week. And then I started um uh 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:57.000 adding set lists and and um and doing two three 0:02:57.120 --> 0:03:00.640 four hour shows, and I started taking requests and asking 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:02.960 people to tell me stories about their life and what 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:06.520 was going on or about my music. And over a 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:08.519 period of about a year and a half, I did 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:13.160 uh sixty five shows or something and built up a 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:19.239 community um and uh it felt like a family. I 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:21.880 just got much closer to my audience in a way 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:26.640 that than I ever had before. And that was really 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:32.080 uh significant for me, not just emotionally, uh not just 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:34.720 financially during that time to keep us alive, but but 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:38.680 and like everybody else, we were isolated and kind of 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:42.720 quarantined and and too even if I couldn't see people, 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:47.120 to know, there was five thousand people every Tuesday at 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:51.520 six pm tuning in and I was sending on postcards 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:54.440 and they were sending me request and there was there 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:56.440 was a relationship there in a connection and it was 0:03:56.560 --> 0:04:01.360 really incredible and kind of made me rethink my my career, 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:04.920 which had always just been about touring, touring, touring, grinding 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:09.600 on the road, and uh so, um it gave me 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:12.320 a really good chance to reset and an opportunity to 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:15.440 connect with my fans and kind of re prioritized and 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:18.360 figure out what was important to me. Okay, let's start 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:21.880 with the actual live stream. The first time you did it, 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:25.239 How did you make people aware that you were doing it? Well, 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:28.720 I did a couple of things that prepared me for 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:30.880 the pandemic. I had a Patreon page going. This is 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:37.200 probably five years ago, and I had I had sort 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:40.159 of hit a a point in life where I was 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:44.840 struggling creatively and and it had been four or five 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:49.040 years in between records, and so I got Patreon really 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:51.880 just to have an outlet for music because I was 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:55.839 starting to feel pressure on myself too. Um, my creative 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:59.560 flow was blocked and and so I just wanted a way, 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:01.960 a a pressure way to release music and songs that 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:03.800 I thought were cool and working producers that I thought 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:07.440 were interesting. Um, that didn't affect my career in my life, 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:11.160 And so I started Patreon and then I started doing 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:13.839 the live stream, and I combined the two. Well, well, well, 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:16.719 let's stay with Patreon then, since you started there. Yeah, 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:20.880 so when you first started Patreon. How did you drive 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:24.840 people to Patreon? Just social media? Basically, I I just 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:27.320 went on. I made the banners of all my pages, 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:31.600 you know, an image, and only most people didn't know 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:33.760 what it was at the time. I didn't know what 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:38.520 it was. My my manager at the time, uh, Mike Crowley. 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:43.880 I brought this idea to me, and um, it seemed interesting, 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:45.600 so we we set it up and I just tried 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:47.320 to figure out what I was gonna do, which was okay. 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:49.880 We got a lot of things going on here. You 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:52.920 say Mike Crowley was your manager, which would imply he's 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:56.560 not your manager anymore. Correct. What happened there? We just 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:59.920 we had a really good run, um uh for close 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:04.320 to fifteen years, and you know, I just reached a 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:07.039 time where it was it was time for us to 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:09.640 move on, and so we did. We're still friends and 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:13.159 uh no ill will of any kind. Just uh. I 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:15.839 have a lot of gratitude for him. And do you 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:19.039 have a manager now? I do? I do? UM, I 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:23.039 had I got a second manager after Mike, and then 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:27.480 um we split up during the pandemic and uh now 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:30.640 I work with Holly Lohman with Red Light Management. How 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:34.240 did you get hooked up there. Uh, she works with 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:38.920 some people I know, and UM, a lot of folks, 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:42.919 my my wife, my attorney, UM, and just a lot 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:44.960 of people in the business who knew I was looking 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:49.440 and needed help. UM recommended her. Her name just kept 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:54.720 coming up. So I I just cold called her and said, uh, 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:57.320 you know, let's meet for lunch and and talk it over. 0:06:57.400 --> 0:06:59.200 And so we we hit it off and she had 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:01.359 room for me, and and so we've been at it 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:06.200 for uh, you know, almost a year now. Okay, Now, 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:08.680 red Light is a unique business model. I won't go 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:11.400 into all the depth at this point in time, but 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:14.800 they're managers to have individual acts, but they all work together. 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:18.120 Do you find any benefit having your manager part of 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:21.720 a larger organization in this case red Light. Yeah. Yeah. 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:24.280 I mean I think there's still things I'm waiting to see, 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:27.720 you know, how much they pay off. But I know 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:33.960 that she can see what's happening with with a lot 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:36.080 of other acts, and she's in close contact with a 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:40.360 lot of other managers. UM. And and I think some 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:42.640 things as basic as they send out a memo saying 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:45.480 you know this, these people are looking for a song 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:48.640 for a commercial, or here's a here's an opening opportunity 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:50.880 or you know supports lot or that might be good 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:54.280 or um. So it's it's similar to you know, if 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:56.440 you're with a booking agency, some things are going to 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:58.520 come across the table that may not have been aimed 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:01.360 at you, but but you and benefit from them. So 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:04.880 you made people aware of Patreon. On social media? What 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:08.320 platforms are you on? Which ones work? And how active 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:12.800 are you? I am on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, and 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:17.080 I guess I'm on Twitch, although I don't know how 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:21.880 I'm smile. But if you're on Twitch, begs a question 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:24.280 are you a gamer? And I'm not? No, okay, but 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:27.880 you're on Twitch, so yeah, go into those three platforms 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:31.080 and how you're using, etcetera. I have gone back and 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:37.000 forth over the years from being very involved to uh 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:39.720 not touching them from a month and it's it's it's 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:42.440 a struggle. I think a lot of musicians and a 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:46.200 lot of people period, but I seem to have this 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:49.520 conversation all the time with folks. Uh, it's this love 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:52.000 hate relationship like where we know it's essential or we 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:54.800 feel like it's essential. We feel like we're missing out 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:57.839 if we're not posting everything. We do all the time 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:02.480 and building this rapport and forming people I don't even know. 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:08.360 I struggle with how essential it really is. Um. But 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:11.520 but most of the time I think it's incredibly important 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:13.720 and something that I need to do. But I also 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:16.800 don't like doing it and I'm really uncomfortable doing it. 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:21.559 Um it's all my insecurities come out with it. Here's 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:23.520 here's what I'm thinking. Do you like me? Here's the 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:25.360 thing I'm gonna do. Are you gonna respond to it? 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:30.040 And and then I'm looking at other people's reactions and 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:32.720 it's hard not to compare and say, well this this 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:36.480 person has way more followers, or this person is funnier 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:39.120 than I am, and I find that it can lead 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:45.600 to uh kind of unhealthy um thing for me. And 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:51.560 and um it's also time consuming. So um I my 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:53.679 my wife the last couple of months has been helping 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:57.079 me out um with it, and it's been a godsend 0:09:57.080 --> 0:09:59.280 because I now I just pick it up if I 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:01.200 want to look at the new is or something. But 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:04.920 I don't have to. It's a full time job, you know. 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:10.040 It's it's it's I want to be writing songs, you know, 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:13.719 are living life. So you mentioned your insecurities said, those 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:17.800 may feed your creativity, but what are your insecurity since 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:24.840 you mentioned them, well, my insecurities point, um, yeah, I've 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:28.200 got them all. It's uh, it's a constant work. I 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:35.360 mean insecurities about my my talents, my my my voice, 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:41.520 my looks, my physique, my career, my um, you know, 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:48.080 the job as a parent. Um Uh, there's there's a 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:51.080 lot of a lot of self doubt and uncertainty and 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:54.840 healthy amount is healthy. Um. But well, I guess the 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:56.520 question would be, you know, we live in an era 0:10:56.640 --> 0:11:00.240 where people boast, and especially on social media institum am 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:04.560 being the prime example of that. To what degree does 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:07.959 that self confidence and people do you think help them 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:12.560 or hurt them? Musicians? I'm speaking of the self confidence 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:15.920 people we you know, we all know we forget the 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:19.760 raw level who someone really is in terms of evidencing 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:23.679 themselves in public. A lot of people demonstrate an incredible 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:27.600 self confidence. And if you have insecurities, you know, I 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:29.880 find this myself. I have insecurities and then all these 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:31.320 people got they're all telling me I have the great 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:33.520 and they're beating me down. And then every once while, 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:35.800 I can you know detach and said, well, I've met 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:37.600 a lot of people. This has got more to do 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:41.160 with that person than me, and it's just bluster. But 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:45.720 should I evidence more self confidence? So to become a 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:49.400 public figure and musician, that requires a certain amount of 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:55.040 belief in yourself and self confidence. So did you feel that, Hey, man, 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:58.760 I've got something to deliver, I'm entitled or is it? 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:02.559 Have you been tentative along? I've been pretty tentative. I mean, 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:05.560 there there are times, just like in life with my 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:08.079 my personality in real life, there are times where I'm 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:12.199 incredibly confident and um, and there are times where I'm crippling, crippling, 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:14.440 lee insecure, and there's times where I have a pretty 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:18.680 good balance. Um. And you know that's probably been reflected 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:22.160 in my social media. UM. I just I find the 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:26.240 I am expected to be or I feel like I'm 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:28.600 expected to be confident or I need to be confident 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:32.520 to put stuff out there, and that feels like a 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:37.400 disconnect sometimes because I want to. Um, I work really 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:40.400 hard at being connected with myself and not getting disconnected, 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:43.400 and there feels like a major disconnect sometimes when I say, hey, 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:45.600 here's this great thing going on, and I may not 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:48.040 be in a great place that day. It's not reflective 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:50.320 of my actual life. It's reflective of one part of 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:53.680 my career or or one moment in my life. And 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:55.920 and so that's a that's just a thing that I've 0:12:56.320 --> 0:13:00.520 battle with is is uh. It does not feel seamless 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:02.400 like here, here's where I am in life, and then 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:09.520 here's why I'm on social media. Um. That that bothers me. That, Um, 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:11.440 I feel like I have to to put out some 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:13.959 sort of something. I don't know, maybe I take it 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:17.839 all too seriously, but it's this is great. No, you're 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:20.040 you're being honest like you are in your music. And 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:22.320 that's why it resonates, which begs the question using that 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:27.040 term again, what works on social media? What gets a reaction? Well, 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:29.600 you know, I find that when I am honest, that 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:32.640 tends to work when I tell uh some part of 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:35.720 my story in a real way, because I can post, hey, 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:39.320 I here's something cool I did and crickets and I 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:42.079 can say here's a struggle I had, and I get 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:44.960 a response. And so that's been informative to me. Doesn't 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:47.960 make it necessarily easier to put that out there, but 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:51.200 I have I have learned that I think people want 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:55.280 connection and and that you know, asked about the pandemic 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:59.160 that that was. That was my big takeaway was people 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:03.480 wanted connection, They wanted something authentic and and I think 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:05.640 I spent many years feeling like I needed to be 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:08.400 something that I wasn't because there I needed to be 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:11.120 a front man, I needed to be a rock singer, 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:14.200 I needed to be a drunk and whatever. And and 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:17.360 it's really hard to just be what you are, whatever 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:19.520 it is in that moment, to be vulnerable and and 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:22.920 when you're in the public eye. And so yeah, that's 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:25.840 that's I guess the struggle. Okay, so which of these 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:29.840 platforms you mentioned Twitter? You mentioned Facebook and Instagram for 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:34.440 your audience, which one has the largest audience in terms 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:36.600 of when you actually say something as opposed to the 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:40.120 number of followers, It says probably Facebook still um, with 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:44.360 Instagram being second and Twitter as a distant third for me. Okay, 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:46.800 so let's go back. You decide to go on Patreon. 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:50.200 There's a way to spur your creativity. You put out 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:55.600 the message. Two things, one how many people actually bite 0:14:56.120 --> 0:14:58.840 and the nature of Patreon is their different tiers. What 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:02.000 were the different tiers you established? I think my initial 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.640 so I've had two sort of runs with Patreon, and 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:07.840 the first time I did it for a couple of 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:13.800 years and I had three four folks on there, and 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:17.080 my tears went from a dollar to a hundred dollars 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:21.000 And essentially I just told them you're going to get 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:24.200 a song a month and then here's a few extra things. 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:27.600 I wasn't all that creative with it, but I just 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:29.520 tried to figure out some way to make it worth 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:33.200 their while financially. But the money. I wasn't looking at 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:35.040 it to live off the money. I was looking at 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:37.600 it to get money to pay producers so that I 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:40.000 could go. I worked. My first one was with John 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:42.920 Levinthal and then I went work to Charlie Sexton or 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:47.960 just different people um um uh that I just really 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:50.480 wanted to play music with. And and so that's what 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:53.040 it was. I wasn't really profiting off of it. It 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:55.640 was just giving me the opportunity to to pay people 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:58.080 that I wanted to work with. Okay, so if someone 0:15:58.160 --> 0:16:00.640 signed up for a hundred dollars, what they get, you know, 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:03.840 I don't even remember what I was offering back then. 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.680 I'll just skip real quick to where it is now. Well, well, 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:10.880 let's let's hold that for a second. Okay, So you start, 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:14.800 you're doing it for creative purposes. People are paying monthly 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:17.760 to what degree? And I think it's inherent. You're seeing 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:20.640 whether the numbers are staying steady, going up, going down? 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:22.960 And to what degree did you feel you had to 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:25.800 service people to a degree in order to make sure 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:30.680 they stayed on? Yeah? I, Uh, the numbers were pretty 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:33.560 consistent as long as I was consistent. But then I 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:37.320 stopped being consistent, and then people express frustration and say, 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:39.840 you know, what are we paying for? You're not really delivering. 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:42.920 And so I felt like I was taking my best 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:47.680 fans and and rather than making them closer to me, 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:51.760 that I was making them regret trusting me. And I 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:54.200 didn't like that. So, and I had just made a 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:57.640 new record using a lot of the songs, you know, 0:16:57.720 --> 0:16:59.920 different recordings, but a lot of the songs that I 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:03.920 had written and recorded initially on Patreon um and so 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:05.680 I decided to shut it down and so I could 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:09.160 pay attention and focus on the on the record, and uh, 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:11.560 that's what so I gave it. It was about two 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:13.359 years that I went with it, and it was it 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:16.080 was wonderful to get to make music. But then it 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:18.520 felt like a job, started to feel like a full 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:21.560 time job, and I was I had a pretty busy 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:24.240 life at that point. Decided to put it away for 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:27.000 a minute, but you restarted it. What was the motivation 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:30.000 of restarting? What's different or the same about it now? Yeah, 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:34.320 So that was another another result of the pandemic UM 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:37.520 and I was fortunate that even though I had shut 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:40.040 it down, I still had I don't know, three hundred 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:43.639 or so of my the followers were still there. And 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:45.480 so I just put it back out and said, Okay, 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:48.480 I'm gonna start charging uh per month again, and I 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:52.520 reworked the tears and UM and then I got like 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:56.320 around seven hundred patrons, and I think people were feeling, 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:58.520 you know, like they wanted to help out. They knew 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:01.959 musicians were in a tight spot. So so I got 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:04.560 more significantly more than I had the first time around, 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:07.240 and I expanded it all the way up to a 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:11.960 thousand dollar level UM. And so you'd asked, what the 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:15.360 what you get? I think at like a five dollar level, 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:17.960 I send you a signed set list from a show 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:20.480 of your choice, or UM, you can get a v 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:24.239 I P meet and greet at a show. Um, at 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:29.680 the hundred dollar level, I'll do a cameo, I'll sing 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:32.280 you know, a personalized song for you or something, all 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:34.200 the way up to a thousand, which after a year, 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:37.680 i'll do a I'll do a concert at your house 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:43.080 like a you know, acoustic show or um, I'll send 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:47.159 people guitars and signed lyrics and and uh, all my 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:50.840 vinyl and basically anything I can think of. I just 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:53.560 try and make it worth people's while to to support me. 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:55.760 So if you've done any live shows, of course, the 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:58.919 pandemic has continued, and how many people will pay a 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:03.359 thousand dollars on long Well, I currently have two people 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:08.560 who who do that, and UM, I'm very grateful for them. 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:10.440 So if you've done the live shows yet, yeah, I 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:13.960 did one. I did one of them. What was that experience? Like? 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:17.280 I was cool? It's um Uh, it's just a very 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:21.600 generous guy who, um, who loves music and is financially 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:24.119 in a position to to support stuff that he loves. 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:28.119 So it's um, he supports me through through Patreon and 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:30.600 then every single live stream I would do, he would 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:34.600 support me through that and and so uh and you 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:37.800 know sometimes it's uh, I spent a long time kind 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:41.320 of being too close to my fans and then sometimes 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:43.560 you know, keep really keeping a distance because it it 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:48.560 didn't feel um, I was just trying to establish some boundaries. Um. 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:52.840 And but Patreon has has been good for me and 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:56.679 that um uh. You know, the people that are on 0:19:56.760 --> 0:20:01.680 there or in my experience of been solid folks who 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:04.840 just want to support something that they appreciate, and so 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:07.440 I keep the guidelines. There. You have the two people 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:11.240 paying a thousand dollars. You know, you mentioned your insecurities past. 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:13.080 You know, if you put up a date and you 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:15.880 go to a club that's an established business, you play, 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:19.000 you get paid, assuming people come. When someone sends you 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:21.520 a thousand dollars a month, do you have any guilt? 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:24.080 But you just say, this is a business. Obviously they 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:28.160 can afford it, and I'm giving something back. It's transactions. Yeah, 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:31.040 If I have any guilt, it's maybe maybe sometimes I 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:34.240 just feel like I'm not doing enough, But I also 0:20:34.280 --> 0:20:37.560 have to realize that I do. I have a lot 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:41.120 going on in my life and uh, and if they're 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:43.560 not happy, they can, you know, they can let me know, 0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:45.919 and I try to. I try to reach out and 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:48.720 stay in contact and just make sure folks are doing 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:51.600 doing well. Um, I lucked out and I found a 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:55.639 woman to help me out with this stuff. Before I 0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:58.800 had a manager. Um finding my last manager and and 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:01.360 help me keep it all together. They're organized, Otherwise I'd 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:05.320 be lost, um fulfilling all this stuff. So UM, No, 0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:08.920 I don't feel guilty. It's ah. Um. I do a thing, 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:11.000 they appreciate it and and they support me, and I 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:21.359 appreciate them for that. So the people, let's you know, 0:21:21.440 --> 0:21:27.320 the steady three people on Patreon, that's the result of 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:30.199 them being so close to you online and limited in 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:32.399 numbers supposed to a big like a big act. Do 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:36.320 you actually know them and interact with them? Uh? Some 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:39.320 of them? I mean, and I know a few of 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:42.439 them just because they're friends, are supported and then I 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:47.359 know a few of them, Um, through meet and greets 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:49.320 and stuff. They'll come to the show and you start 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:51.720 to recognize names. You know, there's some people who are active. 0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:53.080 There's a lot of people who sign up and I 0:21:53.080 --> 0:21:56.080 think don't ever read my emails because they just want 0:21:56.080 --> 0:21:58.359 to support me. They don't actually want to listen to 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:01.159 everything I have to say. Um. And I know that 0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:02.640 to be true because I support a lot of people 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:05.920 on Patreon and and I. You know, there's a certain 0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:07.720 percentage that I just delete because I don't have the 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:12.080 time to to go through it all. But um, um, 0:22:12.119 --> 0:22:15.520 and that's fine. I appreciate them just wanting to support it. Okay, 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:18.080 So how many people do you support on Patreon? I 0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:21.639 currently have six people that I, uh support and with 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:25.080 those big names that the average person recognizes or they're 0:22:25.080 --> 0:22:28.360 more personal friends. Yeah, I'm not sure who. I mean, 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:31.680 what one is Amanda Palmer, who's the biggest act on there, 0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:35.000 and and I And that's more educational for me, um, 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:39.040 just trying to study, you know, how she got to 0:22:39.040 --> 0:22:42.240 where she's at and and um, and how she engages 0:22:42.280 --> 0:22:44.320 with her audience, which is I don't know how many 0:22:45.280 --> 0:22:49.320 thousands of people, but it's it's pretty impressive. Uh. And 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:52.680