1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff I've Never Told You, a production of iHeartRadio, 3 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 2: and today we are bringing back an older Kristen and Caroline, 4 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 2: past host founder of Stuff we Never Told You, classic 5 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 2: around women and photography. Did you ever get really into photography, Samantha. 6 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: I did a whole little project which I kind of 7 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: want to talk about later, called the Purple Balloon Project, 8 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: in which a lot of it was featuring artistic pictures 9 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: and stories of women who survived domestic violence situations or 10 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: assault situations. And yeah, I really thought I was doing something. 11 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: Going back and look at it, I still think I 12 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: did pretty good. I think I could have been a photographer. 13 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 3: Maybe not, Yeah, yeah, I mean if this was a 14 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 3: different podcast, I would wax poetic about how I won 15 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 3: this free camera but it had all these limitations. But 16 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 3: I found the ways around the limitations. But also for 17 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 3: a while, for my job I did, I was a 18 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 3: part of my job. I would never say. 19 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 2: I I would never say I did anything amazing, but 20 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 2: I got pretty good at it. 21 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 4: Yeah. 22 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:37,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I would love listeners, if you're into photography, 23 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 2: if you have any tips, if you would like to 24 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 2: share with listeners. I would love to hear from all 25 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 2: of you. I do have a really good friend who 26 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 2: is a photographer, and she does great work. And every 27 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 2: time I see a picture she's taken. Wow, so good, 28 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 2: so good. But yes, in the meantime, please enjoy this 29 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 2: class episode. Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told You from 30 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 2: HowStuffWorks dot Com. 31 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 5: Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 32 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 4: I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, and. 33 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 5: Let's offer a snapshot of Women and photography, a portrait 34 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 5: of women's contributions to the field of photography. 35 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 4: Caroline filtering the knowledge for you. 36 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 5: This won't be an Instagram Wait, okay, I don't have 37 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 5: a pun for Instagram. It's too bad. Yeah, we're going 38 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:44,399 Speaker 5: to talk about women in photography, which is a huge subject, 39 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,919 Speaker 5: but we're going to offer some historical highlights and also 40 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 5: talk about gender and photography today. More behind the lens, 41 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 5: not stuff so much in front of the camera in 42 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 5: terms of what people are taking pictures of, but talking 43 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 5: about the women behind the camera. So let's go back 44 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 5: in history to eighteen thirty nine. 45 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 6: Yeah, Frenchman Louis de Guerre perfects his dageriotype, the world's 46 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 6: first form of photography, and women were involved from the 47 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 6: get go. But let's talk a little bit more about 48 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 6: the technology. So in eighteen eighty eight we have the 49 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 6: introduction of the mass marketed Kodak box camera, and part 50 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 6: of marketing this Kodak camera and this Kodak technology was 51 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,839 Speaker 6: the Kodak Girl. In eighteen ninety three, the Kodak Girl 52 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 6: appears in the company's national advertising, a character embodying independence 53 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 6: and travel. 54 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 5: And the whole Kodak Girl thing was so significant for 55 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 5: women in photography at the time, in the same way 56 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 5: that we talked about in the podcast recently on Secretaries 57 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 5: of how typewriters were initially marketed to women. It was 58 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 5: this brand new technology, and Kodak was like, you know what, 59 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 5: women would love, this new handheld, easier to use camera, 60 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 5: and their advertising images showed women shooting pictures at home, 61 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 5: out with friends, having a great time, just snapping their 62 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 5: old timey photographs. 63 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 6: You know, you mentioned the Secretary episode and the typewriter, 64 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 6: and I actually was thinking the same thing as I 65 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 6: was reading this stuff, but in regards to a new 66 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 6: industry developing, so there was no precedence for it as 67 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 6: far as what gender it was aligned with, because you know, 68 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 6: obviously we talked about in the Secretary episode how it 69 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 6: was new. The typewriter was new, and so women could 70 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 6: just get into those jobs. It wasn't considered a male pursuit. 71 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 4: It was kind of the same with photography. 72 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 6: Yes, there was technology and you were outside, and these 73 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 6: were two things that were not typically associated with women. 74 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 6: But as the photography industry really got going, I mean 75 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 6: there were a ton of women who got involved. 76 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,919 Speaker 5: Yeah, And in nineteen hundred, when Kodak released its first 77 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 5: Brownie camera, which was lightweight and more inexpensive, this also 78 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 5: revolutionized things for women. And I like how Kodak advertised 79 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 5: it by saying there's a new pleasure in every phase 80 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 5: of photography, whilst showing a woman having lots of pleasure 81 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 5: holding a Brownie camera. 82 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 6: Just carry it around, like when hipsters wear fake glasses. 83 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 6: That's women just carrying brownies around. 84 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 5: I'm gonna start carrying around a nineteen hundred brownie Yeah, yeah, sure, 85 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 5: Who needs an iPhone and Instagram when you have a 86 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 5: camera that won't work. 87 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 4: My thoughts exactly? 88 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 6: Yes, all right, So you know we're talking about women 89 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 6: being outside and following different hobbies and things. 90 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 4: In the mid to late. 91 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 6: Nineteenth century, we get bicycles and bicycle clubs, and then 92 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 6: photography clubs and photography bicycle clubs. 93 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 5: Yeah, I love this. In the mid eighteen nineties, the 94 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 5: whole combination of cameras plus bicycles, plus the emergence of 95 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 5: the new woman who is more emancipated because she's riding 96 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 5: a bicycle and she's taking pictures of things outside that 97 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 5: she sees, is like this huge craze for a bit, 98 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 5: and it seems a little dangerous because I could imagine 99 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 5: that wielding a camera while riding a bicycle. 100 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 4: Hopefully they stopped. 101 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, I assume that they stopped, but still. It was 102 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 5: kind of a sign of the times, though, that women 103 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,160 Speaker 5: were wielding this new technology and getting around on their 104 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,919 Speaker 5: own on bicycles. 105 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 6: And people who were debating it at the time were saying, like, well, 106 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 6: it seems a little risque, but I guess it's an 107 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 6: acceptable form of women getting their exercise. 108 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 5: And photography in general exploded. I mean ever since you 109 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 5: know dea guare perfected, the Daguerreo type studios were popping 110 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 5: up everywhere. 111 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, especially out west. 112 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 6: According to found SF San Francisco dot org, photography became 113 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 6: an emancipator of women out on the western frontier, and 114 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 6: a lot of times these women would go out there 115 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 6: following husbands, brothers, fathers, and pick up the trade from 116 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 6: the men in their lives and continue to work the studios. 117 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 4: So it really wasn't weird. 118 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 6: I mean, it was like, okay, well, it's weird that 119 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 6: there's a woman out here on the frontier, but it 120 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 6: wasn't necessarily weird that a woman would be working at 121 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 6: a photo studio. So women were involved in photography, like 122 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 6: we said, from the very beginning, and particularly out west 123 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 6: during the gold Rush, they worked in all sorts of 124 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 6: related activities, not just shooting the actual photos. They worked 125 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 6: as studio photographers, traveling photographers, proprietors, gallery owners, retouchers, colorists, 126 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 6: and photo mounters, and they also joined the swelling ranks 127 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 6: of amateur art photographers. And these women who worked particularly 128 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 6: as like colorists and retouchers, could actually make a lot 129 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 6: more money than women could in other traditional female roles 130 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 6: at the time. 131 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 5: In the same way, again echoing that secretary podcast, in 132 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 5: how early typists were earning a lot more money than 133 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 5: they could say as garment workers, which was one of 134 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 5: the most common ways for women to earn money outside 135 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 5: of the home, but in the West, which was mostly 136 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 5: dominated by men who were out there for the gold Rush. 137 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,559 Speaker 5: From eighteen fifty to nineteen hundred, there were seventy seven 138 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 5: working female photographers and two hundred and five women earning 139 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 5: a living in related trades, along with fifty two women 140 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 5: who were documented as amateur or fine art photographers, which 141 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 5: sounds like a small group of women, but considering their 142 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 5: proportions in relation to the you know, the gold rush 143 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 5: population was very sizable. 144 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. 145 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 6: And one woman who advertised her services out there was 146 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:38,839 Speaker 6: Julia Shannon, who in eighteen fifty put an ad in 147 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 6: the San Francisco Alta newspaper notice, dagueriotypes taken. 148 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:45,239 Speaker 4: By a lady. Lady is capitalized. 149 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 6: Those wishing to have a good likeness are informed that 150 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 6: they can have them taken in a very superior manner, 151 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 6: and by a real life lady too, in Clay Street, 152 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 6: opposite the Saint Francis Hotel, at a very moderate charge. 153 00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 4: Give her a cul gents. 154 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 5: Yeah, and I can imagine that Julias Shannon did quite 155 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 5: well for herself because she probably emphasized the fact that 156 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 5: your picture will be taken by a real live lady, 157 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 5: because there were not many real live ladies around in 158 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 5: gold rush California. 159 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 6: Right, you've been panning for gold all day, Come in 160 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 6: and see a lady. 161 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 5: But why, Caroline, were women able to pursue photography in 162 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 5: these early years. It wasn't just because of the Kodak 163 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 5: girl's that's that whole fact of the technology being brand 164 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 5: new and therefore not gender segregated yet. 165 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,559 Speaker 6: Yeah, and there was a lack of established schools basically 166 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 6: that could deny them admittant. So it's like definition by negative. 167 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 6: You know, there was nobody to say no. So they 168 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 6: just got involved. And you know, like I said, a 169 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 6: lot of them worked in family businesses and inherited the 170 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 6: trade from a husband or a father. 171 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 4: And it really. 172 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 6: Became the case that photography studios were one of the 173 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,719 Speaker 6: first businesses that were okay for women to own and run. 174 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 5: And in the West in particular, in this you know, 175 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 5: this frontier environment. It's interesting that photography became acceptable and 176 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 5: even desirable for women working in us AY San Francisco's 177 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 5: photo industry because social critics at the time argued that 178 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 5: adventurous women needed a suitable occupation, like being a studio 179 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 5: photographer that offered higher wages so that they wouldn't end 180 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 5: up in a life of vice. Keep women busy, or 181 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 5: else they will end up selling their bodies. 182 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 6: God, that always happens every time I'm bored. It's true, 183 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 6: every time I'm bored. So by eighteen ninety there were 184 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 6: one hundred and forty one documented women working in the 185 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 6: photographic industry, and by nineteen hundred, women composed over twenty 186 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 6: five percent of America's professional registered photographers. 187 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 5: But just because women were wielding the camera and you know, 188 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 5: exploring this new technology, did not mean that it was 189 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 5: necessarily easy for women to sell their photos, particularly for 190 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 5: the ad industry in the early twentieth century, because in 191 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 5: terms of taking portraits, doing studio photography or amateur fine 192 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 5: art photography, women were really finding their stride. But in 193 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 5: advertising that was something that was already an entrenched, male 194 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 5: dominated industry. 195 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,199 Speaker 6: Yeah, in the early twentieth century, agencies for selling photographs, 196 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 6: according to Jermaine Craull, seem to. 197 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 4: Have been reserved for men. 198 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 6: However, the increase in advertising in Germany, in particular in 199 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 6: the late nineteen twenties and early nineteen thirties made it 200 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,319 Speaker 6: possible for women to make it in the field. The 201 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 6: writer lists Ellen Auerback and Gret Stern, who were praised 202 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 6: for their quote inborn womanly instinct for the delicate nuances 203 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 6: of textiles. 204 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 5: Which sounds like a whole lot of benevolent sexism, saying, Oh, 205 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 5: you're so good at this because you are a woman. 206 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:01,439 Speaker 4: You're so good at knowing what cloth looks like. You're empathetic, but. 207 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 5: By that same regard too. As women start making strides 208 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 5: in more of the business side of photography, it still 209 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 5: took a while for them to be taken seriously. From 210 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 5: the nineteen forties on, there were gains in advertising, fashion, 211 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 5: and publicity photography, and in a nineteen forty five summary 212 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 5: of photography related opportunities for women, one commentator urge women 213 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 5: to earn quote unquote pen money by supplying magazines with 214 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 5: pictures of domestic subjects at between two dollars and five 215 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 5: dollars of print, and speaking of the two dollars to 216 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 5: five dollars per print again, same as with secretarial work. 217 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 5: Around the same time. Even though those kinds of jobs 218 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 5: were allowing women to earn more wages than they would 219 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 5: in other industries, they were still being paid about half 220 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 5: as much as men doing the same. 221 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 6: Thing, right, And another commentator on this nineteen forty five 222 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 6: summary of job opportunities for women photographers, it gets worse 223 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 6: than saying, well, they can get a little extra money 224 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 6: for their bobbles and things. Another guy dismissed women as 225 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 6: a handy photo gadget for their photographer husbands. So they're 226 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 6: just like an accessory. 227 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 5: Yeah. That is One thing that photo historians will point 228 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 5: out is that for even the more recognized male photographers 229 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 5: of the era, they had often wives with them who 230 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 5: were traveling and helping them develop their films, set up 231 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 5: their shots, doing all of this very integral work. But 232 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 5: during World War Two and that manpower drain as a 233 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,839 Speaker 5: lot of men left their jobs to go fight, female 234 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 5: photographers got improved access to, especially women's magazines such as 235 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 5: Better Homes and Gardens, House, Beautiful House and Garden, and McCall's. 236 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 6: And after the war, commissions were typically given to women 237 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 6: on other women and on minority groups topics that editors 238 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 6: consider less important. 239 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 5: And that question of are women relegated to shooting women's 240 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 5: interest and domestic related subjects is something that we'll talk 241 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 5: about today because it's a debate that is still going 242 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 5: on for women in photography in twenty thirteen. 243 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 6: Yeah, well, so do you want to talk about some 244 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 6: early pioneers before we get into the gender discussion. 245 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 5: Let's do it. 246 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 4: Let's do it. 247 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 6: Lady Clementina Howarden is one of Britain's first female photographers. 248 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 6: This is coming from her profile on the Telegraph. She 249 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 6: started shooting in eighteen fifty seven and in the eighteen 250 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 6: sixties some of her images that she shot of her 251 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 6: daughters were considered to be some of Britain's first fashion shoots. 252 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 5: Yeah. She often shot her daughters Isabella Grace, Clementina and 253 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 5: Florence Elizabeth in romantic and sensual poses. She had pretty 254 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 5: iconic set dressings that were usually covered with gossamer curtains, 255 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 5: a freestanding mirror, a small chest of drawers, and Empire 256 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 5: star wallpaper. So she definitely developed a look. But even 257 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 5: though the look might seem kind of commonplace, you know 258 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 5: you're thinking, oh, curtains in a mirror, no big whoop. 259 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 5: Her themes were highly progressive for the time and they included, 260 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 5: as reported on in the Telegraph, identity otherness, the doppelganger 261 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 5: and here we go female sexuality, which for a Victorian 262 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 5: era female photographer, pretty progressive stuff. Yeah. 263 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 6: In eighteen sixty three and eighteen sixty four she won 264 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 6: silver medals from the Photographic Society, and she had admirers, 265 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 6: including Lewis Carroll and photography specialist Francesca Spickernell. In recent 266 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 6: times has said that the photography recognition she received was 267 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 6: a tremendous achievement. She said most photography was very masculine 268 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 6: and mostly architectural, so these elegant feminine shots really stood 269 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 6: out at that time. 270 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 5: Now, a contemporary of Hawardans was Julia Margaret Cameron, and 271 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 5: she's been highly praised, more so by contemporary critics than 272 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 5: her critics at the time she received her first camera. 273 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 5: I thought this was funny when she was forty eight 274 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 5: years old in eighteen sixty three and her kids essentially 275 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 5: like moved away and were like, here, mom, have a 276 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 5: camera to keep yourself entertained. And they all know what 277 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 5: happens to women who aren't occupied. Oh yeah, that's right, 278 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 5: and this camera might have otherwise ended up on the street. 279 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 5: But she was deeply religious, well read, and eccentric and 280 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 5: had some pretty famous friends such as Charles Darwin, Alfred 281 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 5: Lloyd Tennyson and Robert Browning, and Cameron immediately started taking 282 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 5: all sorts of pictures, especially portraits and figure studies on 283 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 5: literary and biblical themes, which was something that was unprecedented, 284 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 5: and she quickly became one of the most highly admired 285 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 5: Victorian photographers. 286 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 6: Yeah, she was a very quick learner. Within a year 287 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,400 Speaker 6: and a half she'd sold eighty prints to the Victorian 288 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 6: Albert Museum. But she also went about in an entrepreneurial fashion, 289 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 6: rapidly copyrighting her work, exhibiting her work, and she even 290 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,160 Speaker 6: established her own two room studio. 291 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 5: But she did get snubbed, as I said, from some 292 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,640 Speaker 5: of her critics of the time. In the Photographic Journal 293 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 5: in eighteen sixty five, someone commented that missus Cameron exhibits 294 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 5: a series of out of focused portraits of celebrities. We 295 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 5: must give this lady credit for daring originality, but at 296 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 5: the expense of all other photographic qualities. And not surprisingly 297 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 5: such criticism infuriated Cameron. But she pretty much got the 298 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 5: last laugh because, for instance, a lot of her information 299 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 5: about hers coming from the website of the Metropolitan Museum 300 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 5: of Art, so she certainly put her stamp on art 301 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 5: history at large. 302 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 4: That's exactly right. 303 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 6: Moving forward just a little bit, we have Francis Benjamin Johnston, 304 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 6: who's one of America's first and foremost women photographers. She 305 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 6: trained in Paris in art and in photography at the 306 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 6: Art Students League in d C. And opened her own 307 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 6: studio around eighteen ninety. And what really helped her out 308 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 6: is Johnson's family's social status that gave her access to 309 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 6: the First Family and leading Washington political figures. She actually 310 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,359 Speaker 6: that helped her launch her career as a photojournalist and 311 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 6: a portrait photographer. 312 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 5: Yeah. For instance, thanks to a letter of introduction from 313 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 5: Teddy Roosevelt, no big deal, Johnston boarded Admiral Dewey's flagship 314 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:50,360 Speaker 5: and interviewed him en route to the Philippines, Which I mean, 315 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 5: this is going on in the late eighteen hundreds, early 316 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 5: nineteen hundreds, and Johnston was a pretty pioneering woman in 317 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 5: general to be hanging out on a sh ship like that. 318 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 5: And there's this great iconic picture that she took. It's 319 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 5: a self portrait of her and she's sitting in a 320 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 5: chair hunched forward and she has her skirt pulled up 321 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 5: to reveal her petticoat, which is very risque at the time. 322 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 5: I want to see she's smoking a cigarette two and 323 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 5: she just it's a very masculine post. But you can 324 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 5: just tell from it that she gave no hoots about 325 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 5: what people thought of her. 326 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 4: No hoots were given. 327 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 6: And in nineteen hundred, Johnston was chosen as one of 328 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 6: two American women delegates at the International Congress of Photography, 329 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 6: where she spoke out on behalf of women photographers and 330 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 6: displayed pictures from thirty female colleagues around the US. 331 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, and she was really promotional of women getting into photography. 332 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 5: She wrote a series of articles, for instance in the 333 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 5: Ladies Home Journal, and there was one eighteen ninety seven 334 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 5: article she wrote called what a Woman Can Do with 335 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 5: a Cam in which she talks about the qualities that 336 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 5: you need to be a solid photographer, and she says, 337 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,919 Speaker 5: the woman who makes photography profitable must have as to 338 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 5: personal qualities, good common sense, unlimited patients to carry her 339 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 5: through endless failures, equally unlimited tact good taste, a quick eye, 340 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 5: a talent for detail, and a genius for hard work. 341 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 5: And I think that that advice is probably still the 342 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 5: advice that would be given to women looking to pick 343 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 5: up the camera today. But the thing is in Johnston's 344 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 5: story points to one of the reasons why we wanted 345 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 5: to highlight women in photography is that even though at 346 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 5: the time she was this very important pioneer and had 347 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,919 Speaker 5: a pretty high public profile, the first significant monograph of 348 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 5: her work didn't come around until nineteen seventy. She's one 349 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 5: of many female photographers who were making great strides during 350 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 5: the time, but who have been pretty much ignored in 351 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 5: photo history up until recent decades. 352 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 6: Yeah, one woman who made a lot of waves was 353 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 6: Margaret Burke White, who's actually one of the most famous 354 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 6: photojournalists of the twentieth century. And she has a saucy quote, 355 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 6: if anybody gets in my way when I'm making a picture, 356 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 6: I become a rational I'm never sure what I'm going 357 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 6: to do, only that I want that picture. And so 358 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 6: she was born in the Bronx in nineteen oh four 359 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 6: and began work after college as a commercial photographer, but 360 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 6: she made rapid, exponential strides later in life, and in 361 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 6: nineteen twenty nine she became the first photographer for Fortune magazine, 362 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,959 Speaker 6: and in nineteen thirty six, a black and white photo 363 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 6: of hers made the cover of the first issue of 364 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 6: Life magazine. 365 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 5: Yeah, it was an image of the construction of the 366 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 5: Fort Peck Dam, which was a Public Works Administration project 367 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 5: to build the largest earth dam in the world during 368 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 5: the Great Depression. And in getting that gig, she was 369 00:21:55,440 --> 00:22:00,239 Speaker 5: the only female Life magazine staffer, and she invented the 370 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 5: photo essay for the magazine, and her work became very 371 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 5: famous at the time. And she began as a commercial 372 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:12,479 Speaker 5: photographer documenting the achievements of corporation and then applied that 373 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 5: dramatic style that she owned with industrial and architectural subjects 374 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 5: to photo essays in places all around the world, including Germany. 375 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:24,919 Speaker 5: She actually took pictures from one of the concentration camps 376 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 5: that was being liberated at the time, and those pictures, 377 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 5: I mean just shocked audiences around the world. She also 378 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 5: took pictures in the Soviet Union. She was I think 379 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 5: the first Western photographer to go to the Soviet Union. 380 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 5: She also documented the Midwest during the dust Bowl and 381 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 5: took pictures of these harrowing pictures of families who were 382 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 5: suffering at the time. And she was known for her 383 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 5: fearlessness in doing all of this. 384 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,199 Speaker 6: Yeah, she was definitely no shrinking Violet. She was the 385 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 6: first female war correspondent and the first to be allowed 386 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 6: to work in combat zones during World War Two. 387 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 5: Yeah, and I wish that there was some way. This 388 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 5: is an audio podcast, and so trying to describe photography 389 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 5: in a very meaningful way is a bit challenging. I 390 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 5: wish there was some kind of visual maybe with Google glasses, 391 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 5: maybe we could see a slide show right now of 392 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 5: all of this photography. And there are so many more 393 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 5: important female photographers that we aren't even able to touch 394 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 5: on in depth. I mean, they're women like Dorothea Lang, 395 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 5: Tina Badotti, image In Cunningham, Diane arbus Helen Levitt, Anny Leeboitz, 396 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 5: et cetera, et cetera. And those are only a few 397 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 5: of the women that we ran across. But we only 398 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 5: had time to offer, like we said, a snapshot of 399 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 5: women's photography. But we really want to now dig into 400 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 5: the issue of gender because we've established that women in 401 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 5: photography history have remained underrepresented, even though you have you know, 402 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 5: the Margaret Burke whites, but she and I would say, 403 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 5: in today's term, someone like Annie Leebwitz, or even like 404 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 5: Cindy Sherman. You know, we have these big names, but 405 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 5: it's just a handful of them, and some wonder whether 406 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,199 Speaker 5: the industry still remains male dominated, because we've tried to 407 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 5: kind of go back and correct the record and give 408 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 5: women their due, but there's still more progress that needs 409 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 5: to be made. 410 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 6: And as long as women have been in photography, women 411 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 6: have also been involved in trying to draw recognition to 412 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 6: their female colleagues. 413 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 4: In the industry. This starts really early. 414 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 6: In eighteen eighty nine, Katherine Weadbarnes, a New York amateur photographer, 415 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 6: petition for the Special Photography. 416 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 4: Awards for women to be eliminated. 417 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 6: She said, and I might you know that might seem counterintuitive, 418 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 6: but she says that if the work of men and 419 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,159 Speaker 6: women is admitted to the same exhibition, it should be 420 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 6: on equal terms. 421 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 5: And that is a question that does come up with 422 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 5: not just in photography, but you can name any other industry. 423 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 5: It's this question of whether calling out women for doing 424 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:07,120 Speaker 5: work in a specific field kind of undercuts progress because 425 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 5: are we saying that, oh, well, this is wonderful photography 426 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 5: by women, or should we just say, as Catherine Weed 427 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 5: Barnes would advocate for, oh what a wonderful photograph and 428 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 5: it doesn't matter. But the question is, then doesn't matter? 429 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 5: I mean, in the nineteen sixties and seventies, in the 430 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 5: wake of feminist political action, gender absolutely mattered. There was 431 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 5: a newfound interest that sprang up in women's photography, both 432 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:41,199 Speaker 5: contemporary and historical, and some feminists sought to resituate the 433 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 5: work of women photographers within that larger history of photography 434 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 5: and rescue women photographers who had disappeared from the historical records. 435 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 5: So you probably did for that reason see things like 436 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 5: that nineteen seventy monograph of France's Benjamin Johnston's work, And 437 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 5: so in that regard you can argue that, yes, having 438 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 5: exhibitions that focus solely on work produced by women is 439 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 5: important because of a legacy of sexism. 440 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 6: Well yeah, I mean, it's not that you look at 441 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 6: a photo and you say that was taken by a 442 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 6: woman or that was taken by a man. I guess 443 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 6: it doesn't matter if a great photo was taken by 444 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 6: one or the other. However, we can't forget that there 445 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 6: are very important women contributing to the field like that. 446 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 6: I think that matters more than knowing that a photograph 447 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 6: was taken by a woman or a man. 448 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 5: Right, it's more of that educational aspect, and that's why, 449 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 5: you know, there was a movement in the seventies to 450 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 5: to highlight that kind of art. For instance, in nineteen 451 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 5: seventy five, there was at the San Francisco Museum of 452 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 5: Modern Art an exhibition called Women a Photography, a historical 453 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 5: survey with fifty women photographers. In nineteen seventy nine, the 454 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 5: International Center for Photography sponsored recollections ten Women of Photography, 455 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 5: which was partially funded by the National Endowment for the Arts. 456 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 6: And it was around the time too, in the seventies 457 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 6: and moving into the eighties, that media savvy artists like 458 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 6: Barbara Krueger and Cindy Sherman did a lot of work 459 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 6: to undermine the authority of the male gaze and commercialism 460 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 6: and all that stuff. For instance, Krueger's Your Body is 461 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 6: a Battleground. She actually interpreted a lot of photography like 462 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 6: advertisements to sort of undermine the way that media looked 463 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 6: at women at the time. 464 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 5: Yeah, and we don't have a lot of time to 465 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 5: delve into feminist photography, but they definitely did spring up 466 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 5: in the seventies, eighties, nineties and a lot of it 467 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 5: was more political and examining like the women's female body 468 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 5: and the whole thing of the male gaze and sort 469 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 5: of playing with all of those concepts, sort of infusing 470 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 5: feminism with photography. And speaking though of Cindy Sherman, I 471 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 5: think it's pretty notable that in twenty eleven she sold 472 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 5: the most expensive photograph in history. It was a nineteen 473 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 5: eighty one self portrait called Untitled, and it's sold for 474 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,640 Speaker 5: almost three point nine million dollars. 475 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 2: Geez. 476 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 5: But in response to, oh, you know, someone's buying this 477 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 5: female produced piece of art, what does this mean? And 478 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 5: essentially art critics were like, it just means that art 479 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 5: is funny money. You know, you just plunk down a 480 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 5: lot of money. There's a weird kind of competition among 481 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 5: art collectors, and it's really no big deal that it 482 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 5: was produced by Cindy Sherman, as opposed to say, man 483 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 5: ray yeah. 484 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 6: Moving forward to today, a photographer Paul Melcher started a 485 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 6: debate on the Black Star Rising blog when he was 486 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 6: talking about the importance or the unimportance of calling out 487 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 6: photographers genders and how that affected anybody. He says that 488 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 6: it seems that political correctness has now started to reach 489 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 6: the shores of the previously sexless island of photography. It 490 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 6: appears that some people with a highly developed social conscience 491 00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 6: want you to know the gender of a photographer whose 492 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 6: picture you would as if it made any difference. 493 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 5: And then Melissa Golden, who's a photographer who we actually 494 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 5: worked with at our college newspaper we did, made a 495 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 5: public response to Melcher saying, you know, like, essentially the 496 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 5: idea that the gender shouldn't matter is true. He's got 497 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 5: a good point. But she talks about how when she 498 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 5: was fighting her way into the often boys club of 499 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 5: professional photography, especially if you look at more veteran figures, 500 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 5: it is dominated by men, and she said, it took 501 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 5: me too long to figure out the drinking massive amounts 502 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 5: of alcohol and putting up with sexual harassment. We're not 503 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 5: the tests I had to pass to join the club. 504 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 5: And she said, I now know it took me so 505 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 5: long because I didn't have a strong senior female photographer 506 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 5: or editor willing to take me in and tell me 507 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 5: there's another better way. And this kind of brings up 508 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 5: the whole question of you know, like, is feminism still useful? Well, yeah, 509 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 5: it is, because we don't live in a society that's 510 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 5: free from sexism, and we're not living in this gender 511 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 5: equal utopias. So unfortunately, gender does still matter. I mean, 512 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 5: I wish that Melcher was right and that it is 513 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 5: just a sexless island, as he says, no. 514 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 6: But the debate, it seems like the debate on whether 515 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 6: gender matters has been going on forever and it will 516 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 6: continue to do so because you have people like Princeton 517 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 6: Women's Studies and Art and Archaeology professor Carol Armstrong, who 518 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 6: says that male and female photographers have always ventured into 519 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 6: the same territory, but women do so with more empathy 520 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 6: for the subject. Then you have British writers slash critics 521 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 6: Griselda Pollock and Janet Wolf who asserted that there is 522 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 6: no intrinsic feminine or masculine essence, only complex networks of 523 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 6: culturally conditioned markers that construct what superficially appears to. 524 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 4: Be coherent gender identity. 525 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 5: So essentially, what they're saying in the book Photography, a 526 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 5: Cultural History by Mary Warner Marian is that there are 527 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 5: no gender differences in how men and women approach photography right, 528 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 5: and that is echoed in a blog post on the 529 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 5: News Photographers Association of Canada blog by Renee Blackstone. She 530 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 5: interviewed a number of female photojournalists on the question of 531 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 5: whether gender differences exist because you do that issue of oh, well, 532 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 5: women have more empathy with their subjects. Women might be 533 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 5: able to approach a situation, a more sensitive situation, better 534 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 5: than a male photographer could. And some of the photojournalists said, yeah, 535 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 5: women might be better in situations where quote unquote a 536 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 5: kind of intimacy is required and a certain woman to 537 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 5: woman trust can be developed. But a lot of them said, 538 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 5: you know what, there's really no difference. Men and women 539 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 5: are both doing social documentary work and in the same 540 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 5: way that women can go into places that men can't. 541 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 5: I would say that men can probably go into plenty 542 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 5: of places that women can't. And I don't know, I 543 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 5: have a little bit of hesitation just saying that, you know, 544 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 5: what women bring to the table are more finely tuned emotions. 545 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 5: I think that while, yes, your emotions will influence your 546 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 5: art and your work, I don't know that that should 547 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 5: be you know, the platform on which we call for 548 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 5: equality or progress. Yeah, well, simply because I would think 549 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 5: that veteran male photographers would give no hoots to quote 550 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 5: myself about your emotion, especially in the workplace. Yeah, and 551 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 5: I'm also I mean, like we're sitting here speaking as 552 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 5: not experienced photographers or photojournalists. But you know, it does 553 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 5: make me wonder whether that's really a useful argument. And 554 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 5: I think that's one reason why if you do talk 555 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 5: to a lot of women about this, that there, at 556 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 5: the end of the day, there aren't really gender differences 557 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 5: in how women and men take pictures what we see 558 00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 5: and don't see. 559 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 6: I mean when I worked at the news paper, I 560 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 6: mean half of our staff, half of our pheto staff 561 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 6: was men, half was women, and. 562 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 4: They were all brilliant. 563 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 6: But they weren't Maybe it's because we were in a 564 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 6: metropolitan newspaper and we weren't sending people to Iraq or 565 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 6: anything to take dangerous pictures. 566 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 4: But it's like, you know, they went to. 567 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 6: Their various fair county fair assignments and you know, criminal 568 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,959 Speaker 6: trial assignments and took pictures and I mean, they were 569 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 6: all brilliant. It wasn't a case of like we need 570 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 6: to send Jackie to this one because she's a girl, 571 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 6: and we need to send you know, Mike to this 572 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 6: one because he's a boy. 573 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 5: Jackie is going to the baby judging contest, Jack's going 574 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 5: to the NASCAR race. Go but numbers wives though there 575 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 5: are more men involved in photography. According to the National 576 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 5: Endowment for the Arts Artists in the Workforce survey from 577 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 5: nineteen ninety to two thousand and five, forty two point 578 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 5: eight percent of all the people who listed themselves as 579 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 5: professional photographers were women, so less than half, but this 580 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 5: was also a compelling statistic. Sixty percent of those women 581 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 5: were under thirty five, meaning that men comprise a majority 582 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 5: of the veteran successful photographers. So photography is also one 583 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 5: area where you know, women are wondering whether or not 584 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 5: there is some kind of off ramp. Maybe it has 585 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 5: to do with, like Melissa Golden talked about, not having 586 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 5: you know, the senior editor to encourage her onward a 587 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 5: female mentor there's a question of why in a lot 588 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 5: of art schools, women might be out numbering men in 589 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 5: the student body in terms of who's studying photography, but 590 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 5: once they get out there seems to they seem to 591 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 5: thin out. 592 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 6: Yeah, Well, what really thins out is pay for women, 593 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 6: because according to this report, there's a major pay gap 594 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 6: the median income for a male photographer is thirty five 595 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,280 Speaker 6: five hundred dollars, for a woman it's sixteen three hundred. 596 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 5: And I think maybe as a result of those of 597 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 5: a huge pay gap like that women photographers have, I've 598 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 5: really been honing in on certain areas like wedding photography 599 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 5: and the family portraiture, to which there was an article 600 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,760 Speaker 5: over at The Grindstone talking about the ghettoization of female 601 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 5: photographers in weddings, saying, all, we can shoot our weddings, 602 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 5: it's all people tosses their weddings. 603 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 6: Well, I don't think that's true, but you can. I 604 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 6: also know that you can make boku de bucks or 605 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 6: ok he as a wedding photographer. 606 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,400 Speaker 5: Well that's what I'm saying, in order to close up 607 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 5: that income gap, get into wedding photography. But but I 608 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,240 Speaker 5: am curious to hear from female photographers out there whether 609 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 5: they are instantly assumed to be you know, if you're 610 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 5: a woman walking around with a camera around your neck, 611 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 5: you know, are you just assumed to be on your 612 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:44,800 Speaker 5: way to a wedding? 613 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 6: Well, you know, you talked about whether there were female 614 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:52,400 Speaker 6: role models or mentors in the industry. Feon a Rogers, 615 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 6: who started the Firecracker Photographic Grant in twenty eleven to 616 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 6: support women photographers, says that well, there seems to me 617 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,359 Speaker 6: to be an abundance of way and studying photography. Would 618 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 6: appear that a large percentage leave education and take on administrational, 619 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 6: organizational or nurturing roles within the visual arts. And she 620 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 6: goes on to say that Firecracker was established as a 621 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 6: way of supporting women photographers and linking them with a 622 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,360 Speaker 6: wider public and industry audience. 623 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 5: Which is good. I mean it sounds like within the 624 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 5: industry there is a greater effort to link women up 625 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 5: with other women to offer more support. Women are also 626 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 5: making strides on their own. This is coming from the 627 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:33,840 Speaker 5: British Journal of Photography. It was an article talking about 628 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 5: how women are really coming into their own with social portraiture, 629 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 5: which was traditionally male dominated, and they've been scooping up awards. Recently, 630 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 5: the Master's Photographers Association awarded its sole fellowship to photographer 631 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 5: Joe de Banzi, and that's such a big deal when 632 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 5: you consider that out of the sixty five fellowships ever 633 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:02,719 Speaker 5: awarded by MPa, only eight have gone to women. And similarly, 634 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 5: Lisa Visser was awarded the British Professional Photographer of the 635 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,279 Speaker 5: Year or in two thousand and eight. So I mean they're, 636 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 5: you know, obviously like women are doing very well at 637 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 5: their jobs and climbing up through the ranks. But it 638 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 5: seems like maybe it's just we're catching up from such 639 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 5: a long legacy. And by we, I mean female photographers, 640 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:26,240 Speaker 5: not myself. 641 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 4: Right, I mean, I'll take pictures of my iPhone. 642 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 6: But there have been a lot of sources, not just 643 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,799 Speaker 6: this British Journal of Photography piece, but a lot of 644 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:40,839 Speaker 6: other areas on the Internet are talking about how digital photography, 645 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 6: the ease of use, has made it possible for more 646 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,240 Speaker 6: women to get into photography, and that makes my eyes twitch. 647 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,319 Speaker 6: There was one comment on a blog I read where 648 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 6: this man who was like, look, you know, I'm young 649 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 6: and i don't have a lot of experience, but I'm 650 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 6: just saying that maybe from the early days of photography, 651 00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 6: where cameras were highly technical and it was difficult, maybe 652 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 6: women just weren't interested. And now that things are digital, 653 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 6: women are interested because they just want to take pictures 654 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 6: of their kids. And I mean I pushed my computer 655 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,760 Speaker 6: out the window after I read that, but that digital 656 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 6: photography discussion is something that's going on, and I think, 657 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 6: knowing some of the amazing female photographers that I do, 658 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:20,640 Speaker 6: I think that's crap. 659 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I mean again that it does bring up 660 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 5: I mean, that's kind of not so benevolent sexism saying 661 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,359 Speaker 5: that since it's easier now, women want to do that. 662 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 5: And I feel like we could do and listeners, if 663 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 5: you have an idea of how we could do this, 664 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 5: I think we could do a whole episode on Instagram 665 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 5: because because it is so female dominated, women love it 666 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,799 Speaker 5: and it is becoming this huge social media force and 667 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 5: I think it'd be interested interesting to look into that more. 668 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 5: But yeah, I mean I arguments like that make me 669 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 5: cringe that oh now we're now we're interested just because 670 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 5: it's simple men, you enjoy ease of use well and 671 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 5: a good user experience. Okay, So anyway, I want to 672 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,799 Speaker 5: get riled up here, but I hope that we have 673 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 5: photographers listening. And again, I know that there were so 674 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 5: many notable women behind the camera that we did not 675 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 5: have time to talk about. Hopefully I can do like 676 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,400 Speaker 5: a big blog round up maybe. Unfortunately, the challenging thing 677 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 5: about setting up galleries for photography to show women's work 678 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 5: is copyright issues, right, and we ain't going to violate them, 679 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 5: but I'll do my best to try to find pictures 680 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 5: that we can show of these women's incredible work. And 681 00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,920 Speaker 5: we haven't even talked very much to about younger contemporary 682 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 5: women who are climbing through the ranks as well. 683 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 4: Right, So yeah, if you know any of that, please 684 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:47,600 Speaker 4: give us a shout. 685 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,920 Speaker 5: Yeah, and shout out to photographer Lizzie if she's listening 686 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 5: to this podcast, your photos are amazing. 687 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,319 Speaker 4: And Melissa Golden, yeah, if you're listening, what up? 688 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 5: And all the all the photographers out there, send us 689 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 5: emails though. Moms Stuff at Discovery dot com will be 690 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,759 Speaker 5: curious to hear everyone's thoughts on this, and of course 691 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:07,640 Speaker 5: you can find us on Facebook if you'd like to 692 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,239 Speaker 5: send us a message that way, or tweet us at 693 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 5: Mom's Stuff podcasts. And before we get to a couple 694 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,799 Speaker 5: of your letters, let's take a quick break, Caroline, and 695 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:31,720 Speaker 5: then we'll come back. And now back to our letters. 696 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 6: I have one here from Madeline talking about cleanliness and 697 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 6: same sex households. She says, I totally agree that men 698 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 6: and women don't have innate differences in cleanliness just culturally 699 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 6: impose differences. I am a bisexual woman and I've been 700 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 6: in monogamous relationships with men and women. In my experience, 701 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 6: there is just as much variation within men and women 702 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,319 Speaker 6: in terms of how clean people are. I have been 703 00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:01,320 Speaker 6: with clean men, filthy men, clean women, filthy women, et cetera. However, 704 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,759 Speaker 6: in my relationships with the opposite sex, there has been 705 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,600 Speaker 6: that unspoken assumption that I will be cleaning up. This 706 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 6: can easily be remedied by dividing chores and letting your 707 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 6: boyfriend dude whatever do his chores in his own time. 708 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 6: With my same sex relationships, chre delegation has been smoother 709 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:19,120 Speaker 6: since we have both been trained to constantly be. 710 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 4: Thinking about how we look. 711 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:23,799 Speaker 6: Luckily, my fiance and wife to be is in the 712 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:27,200 Speaker 6: healthy middle ground of the slob OCD continuum. 713 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,160 Speaker 4: Congratulations, Madeline, and thank you well. 714 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 5: I've got an email here from someone who would like 715 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:37,360 Speaker 5: to remain anonymous because she's writing in about her labia plasty. 716 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,719 Speaker 5: She writes, I had a labia plasty at the age 717 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,880 Speaker 5: of fifteen, and it dramatically changed my life for the better. 718 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 5: I was born with an enlarged labia minora that hung 719 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 5: out of my vagina, and it never bothered me until 720 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 5: dreaded puberty hit. The skin got longer and larger and 721 00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,400 Speaker 5: would rub on the inside of my underwear and become irritated. 722 00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 5: So I got to the point to where I could 723 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,880 Speaker 5: no longer do any vigorous exercise or pants that were 724 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,399 Speaker 5: tighter than sweatpants. Noticing a drastic change in my life, 725 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,240 Speaker 5: my mother asked what was going on, and I finally 726 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,680 Speaker 5: admitted my problem, and she took me to the gynecologist. 727 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,120 Speaker 5: I was booked for my Labiya plastis soon after and 728 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:15,600 Speaker 5: was deeply satisfied with the results. I understand that most 729 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:17,520 Speaker 5: women who go through the surgery do it simply for 730 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 5: cosmetic reasons, but I thought you should know that some 731 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,080 Speaker 5: of us out there have done it out of necessity. 732 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 5: We don't just talk about it because it can be 733 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,920 Speaker 5: quite embarrassing and require us a long backstory about our 734 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,279 Speaker 5: misfit vaginas. I certainly don't share this at parties or 735 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 5: even with my closest friends. However, the anonymity of the 736 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,520 Speaker 5: Internet has inspired me to share my surgery story to 737 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:38,960 Speaker 5: let you know that I wasn't trying to please some man, 738 00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,960 Speaker 5: I was only horrified by the prospect of wearing sweatpants 739 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,880 Speaker 5: and walking like an old lady for the rest of 740 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,600 Speaker 5: my life. So thanks for sharing, because I think that 741 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:51,080 Speaker 5: you know. It's stories like these that are important to 742 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 5: help drive home the point that every vagina is a 743 00:42:54,680 --> 00:43:00,000 Speaker 5: little bit different. And with that song, I think you Carol. 744 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:04,759 Speaker 5: Send us your emails Momstuff at Discovery dot com. You 745 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,280 Speaker 5: can also Facebook us or tweet us at mom Stuff podcast. 746 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,080 Speaker 5: You can also follow us while you're at it on Tumblr. 747 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:15,160 Speaker 5: We're at Stuffmomnever Told You dot tumblr dot com, and 748 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,399 Speaker 5: we're now on YouTube. You can watch us. That's right. 749 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,479 Speaker 5: Go to YouTube dot com slash stuff mom Never Told 750 00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,719 Speaker 5: You and click subscribe if you don't mind, and watch us. 751 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,120 Speaker 5: We're coming at you three times a week over there, 752 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,920 Speaker 5: and if you'd like to, you can still visit our 753 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:38,600 Speaker 5: website too, it's how stuff Works dot com. For more 754 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:49,040 Speaker 5: on this and thousands of other topics, visit HowStuffWorks dot com.