1 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: Lokata Radio is a radiophonic novella, which. 2 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 2: Is just a very extra way of saying a podcast. 3 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 3: I'm Fosa FM. 4 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:19,760 Speaker 2: And I am Mala Munos. 5 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: Lokata Radio is yr Brima's favorite podcast, hosted by us 6 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: Mala and Viosa. 7 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 2: We're two ig friends turned podcast partners, breaking down pop culture, feminism, 8 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 2: sexual wellness, and offering fresh takes on trending topics through 9 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 2: nuanced interviews with up and coming LATINX creatives. 10 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: Known as Las Lokatas, Las Mammis of Myth and Bullshit 11 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:48,279 Speaker 1: and Las Bocasters Prosas. We were podcasting independently since twenty sixteen, 12 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: but joined iHeartMedia's Microtura network in twenty twenty two. 13 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 2: This year, we're continuing to share stories from the LATINX community. 14 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 1: Partodo el Mundo Welcome to season eighty. 15 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 4: Are you listening? 16 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 1: O La La Loka Motes, Welcome to season eight of 17 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: Lokata Radio. 18 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 4: I'm the Osa and I'm Mala. 19 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: You're tuning in to Capitolo one seventy nine. 20 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 2: Last time on locat Our Radio, we interviewed Jasmine Malonado, 21 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 2: founder of Persona the Shop. Go ahead and tune into 22 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 2: that episode, leave us a review, share with a friend, 23 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 2: and subscribe to Loca Thought our radio. 24 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: So today we have a pretty intense episode. This is 25 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 1: a this is a deep one. This is this is 26 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: We've been waiting to do this one. We need at 27 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: the time, We needed the research and so we're going 28 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: to be talking about the state of affairs in the 29 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: world as best as we can, but we'll be doing 30 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: so with a journalist and really focusing on misinformation and 31 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: social media. This in this conversation, the. 32 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 2: Last time we briefly touched upon Israel Palestine, we suggest 33 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 2: that folks not turn to celebrities or influencers or Instagram 34 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 2: graphics for their takes and for their perspectives and for 35 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 2: their background, which is why we're inviting on a journalist, 36 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 2: Jean Guerrero, to give us some context and perspective on 37 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 2: specifically misinformation online as it relates to Israel Palestine. A 38 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:29,559 Speaker 2: few weeks ago, we received the news over here Stateside 39 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 2: that Hamas bombed Israel. Since October seventh, seven thousand civilians 40 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 2: have been killed in Gaza due to Israeli airstrikes. Of 41 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 2: those seven thousand, more than twenty nine hundred have been children, 42 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 2: twenty four journalists, sixty one teachers, thirty five United Nations staff, 43 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 2: and these numbers according to The Washington Post. 44 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: Those numbers continue to rise right as we do our research, 45 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,239 Speaker 1: as things are reported out. And we're also have been noticing, 46 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,959 Speaker 1: you know, in the US, of course, when people voice 47 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: their opinions or people voice their support in particular of Palestine, 48 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: they have been losing job opportunities, have been resigning from jobs, 49 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: and so just a couple examples, Javier Zamora, author of 50 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: New York Times bestselling memoir Sorito, was uninvited from a 51 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: panel for voicing his support of Palestine. 52 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,239 Speaker 2: And javier' Zamora is not the only one that seems 53 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 2: to be experiencing some type of professional repercussions for support 54 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 2: of Palestine. We also have examples of folks like ca 55 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 2: agent Maha Dakil, who recently resigned from the internal board 56 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 2: at CAIA. But we're seeing Israeli people and those who 57 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: are in support of ending air strikes in Gaza receiving 58 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 2: negative backlash in the public sphere. 59 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: We mentioned like not to listen or not to seek 60 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: out influencers, write, or celebrities for your information or news, 61 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: but I did want to point out like Belahadee obviously 62 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: is a model, she's Palestinian, and she has been vocal 63 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: in the Free Palestine movement in support of it, and 64 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: she's been receiving death threats, and so it's we share 65 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: this to contextualize the consequences of showing your support for Palestine, 66 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: and how this relates to free thinking, critical thinking, media literacy, 67 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: lack there of media literacy, and how we can combat 68 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: it as we consume news, how we can be more 69 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: mindful with the things that we share, because we all 70 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: share things, influencer or not. If you're a person online, 71 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 1: you're probably sharing. If you care about different causes, you're 72 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: going to be sharing things. 73 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 2: And in addition, you know, the Free Palestine movement is 74 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 2: not a recent movement. This is something that has been 75 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 2: going on for the past fifty years. There have been 76 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 2: Students for Justice in Palestine chapters at Universe cities across 77 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 2: the country for a long time. Certainly when I was 78 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 2: an undergrad, SJP was around, and so I think part 79 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 2: of it too is look to the movement that has 80 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 2: been going on for several decades now, the thought leaders, 81 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 2: the activists, the writers, the journalists, the Palestinians who have 82 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 2: been talking about this issue, not necessarily like someone who 83 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 2: got a million followers in the last six months, you 84 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:29,039 Speaker 2: know what I mean, as like now posting about it 85 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 2: is more the perspective where're coming from? 86 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean Angela Davis has been writing about Palestine 87 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: for most of her career. Different collectives, feminist collectives over 88 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 1: the years, over the decades that have been writing about 89 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: Palestine have been thinking and supporting Palestinian folks. And also 90 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: because you mentioned SGP, I did also want to mention that, 91 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:53,679 Speaker 1: you know, students from across the country in their SJP 92 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: chapters are being dogsed, are losing their jobs. And something 93 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: to keep in mind is these are twenty somethings student leaders. 94 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: So we can have celebrities, we can have professional folks 95 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 1: sure losing opportunities, but we're having twenty something year olds 96 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: being docksed. 97 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:10,239 Speaker 3: So this is happening more. 98 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 2: And more absolutely. And in putting this episode together, you know, 99 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 2: we were reaching out to different folks to see who 100 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 2: could we bring on, who could we interview, And I 101 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 2: asked a journalist friend of ours, you know, who are 102 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 2: your recommendations as far as Palestinian journalists who might be available, able, 103 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 2: willing to speak on the topic, and sort of what 104 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 2: we were finding is there are plenty of Palestinian journalists 105 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 2: out there who right now are very booked. They're on CNN, 106 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 2: they're on the major news stations, they're on the ground, 107 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 2: they're talking about the issue and what's going on. But 108 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 2: you also have a number of Palestinian journalists, writers, thinkers 109 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 2: who are not necessarily able or comfortable or safe to 110 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 2: speak on these issues publicly or on the record for 111 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 2: fear of whatever potential consequences might come their way. So 112 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 2: if you're asking, why don't we have a Palestinian journalist 113 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 2: on today's episode, well, that's one of the reasons why. 114 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 2: So thus Jean, we're very excited to have her. She's 115 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 2: been writing on this issue recently for the la time 116 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 2: she has a column, So after the episode, make sure 117 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 2: to go and read some of her writing about misinformation 118 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 2: and how to really kind of disentangle all the different interests, 119 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 2: all the conflicting interests that are involved in this in 120 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 2: this issue. 121 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and next week we will be joined by two guests, 122 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: one of them Palestinian, to talk about the crisis and 123 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: war crimes in Palestine and They have a podcast as well, 124 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: so we'll be talking more about that next week, but 125 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: in the meantime, we're super excited to have an Jin Guerrero. 126 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: We've been following her work for years and she's an 127 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: opinion columnist at the La Times. Her writing has been 128 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: featured in Vanity Fair, Politico, The Nation, Wired, and The 129 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: New York Times and The Washington Post and everywhere. Basically. 130 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: She's originally from San Diego and a graduate of USC 131 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: and Gaucher College. This past week, she published an article 132 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: titled Horrific Social media post about the Israel Hamas War 133 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: show how being online ruins independent thinking? Can we fix it? 134 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 2: Jean Guerrero columnist, journalist, writer at the La Times. Thank 135 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 2: you so much for joining us today. Can you please 136 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 2: say hello and introduce yourself for our listeners. 137 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 4: Hi, great to be here. 138 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 5: My name is Jean Guerrero and I'm a columnist at 139 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 5: the La Times. I write mostly about politics, threats to democracy, 140 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 5: disinformation and grew up on the border in San Diego 141 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 5: and covered immigration issues under the Trump administration and Gene. 142 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 2: You cover all kinds of topics in your column, from 143 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 2: dating and who splits the Bill to now talking about 144 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 2: misinformation and the horrific social media posts about the Israel 145 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 2: Hamas war that people are seeing online, and what that 146 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 2: is illustrating about American public's ability to think freely and independently. 147 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 2: So I would love for us to talk to you 148 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 2: specifically about about that article as it relates to Israel 149 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 2: and Hamas. 150 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'd love to talk about it. 151 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 5: I'll just preface by saying I'm not, by any stretch 152 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 5: of the imagination, an expert on the Israel Hamas war, 153 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 5: So I wouldn't feel comfortable commenting on the peculiar the 154 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 5: particularities of how people should be processing it. But I 155 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 5: can absolutely talk about why people on social media seem 156 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 5: to be adopting an extremely harmful and black or white 157 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 5: framing that I don't think is conducive to peace or 158 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 5: any constructive progress on this issue. 159 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 2: Gene, I'm curious, was there one particular post or a 160 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 2: series of posts, or a pattern that sparked this idea 161 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 2: for you you to talk about the misinformation as it 162 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,439 Speaker 2: relates to the Israel Palestine issue, Like, was there something 163 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 2: specific that you saw that moved you to write this column? 164 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I was. 165 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,439 Speaker 5: I was on Instagram and I was just noticing that 166 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 5: the people who were appearing in my feed were either 167 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 5: super super pro Israel and not expressing any empathy or 168 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 5: concern about the lives of Palestinian civilians, or they were 169 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 5: super pro Palestinian to the to the point of of 170 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 5: of rationalizing or even cheering on the horrific deaths that 171 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 5: we saw as a result of Hamask going into Israel 172 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 5: and killing so many people in these brutal ways. 173 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 4: So I just I was. 174 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 5: I was noticing it was it was either one way 175 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 5: or the or the other way, and I wasn't seeing 176 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 5: any nuance or complexity in the discussion. And I started 177 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 5: talking to my friends and found that they were experiencing 178 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 5: similar things on social media. If if they were were 179 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 5: if they leaned more in the Palestinian direction, their social 180 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 5: media media feeds tended to be more populated by these 181 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 5: just horrible videos of of of of the violence being 182 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 5: committed against Palestinians by by the Israeli government and UH 183 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 5: and vice versa. 184 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 4: People who were super pro Israel were tending. 185 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 5: To see videos of of of the children who were 186 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 5: taken hostage by Hamas and and and the people who 187 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 5: were killed by Hamas and I realized we were all 188 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 5: experiencing completely different realities and were unable to It was 189 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 5: just another example of how we were a lot of 190 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 5: people just were unable to have conversations about this very 191 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 5: important issue because we were all seeing entirely different realities 192 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 5: and we couldn't. We can't. So many of us just 193 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 5: continue to not be able to understand one another because 194 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 5: we're not seeing the same reality. Literally, we're seeing entirely 195 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 5: different realities on our. 196 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 1: Feeds, right, And that's part of how the algorithm is created. 197 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I would definitely be on the side of 198 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: social media where everyone is pro Palestine, you know, free 199 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: Palestine movement, and so what I'm seeing is very different 200 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,559 Speaker 1: than say someone in the opposite quote opposite side. 201 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 2: But the way the. 202 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:38,599 Speaker 1: Social media algorithm is created, that's where we exist online. 203 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: And you references really great quote by Naomi Klein about 204 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: the more we exist online, the more privacy and autonomy 205 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: we lose. 206 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 3: So can you talk more. 207 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: About that as someone that's both online for work maybe 208 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 1: for personal reasons too, and consuming all of this news. 209 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean this great quote she says is how 210 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 5: individual we're all becoming individuals not guided by legible principles 211 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 5: or beliefs, but acting as members of groups, playing yin 212 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 5: to the others yang well versus weak, awake versus sheep right, 213 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 5: just versus depraved binaries where thinking once lived. And I 214 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 5: just thought that was so insightful because I do believe 215 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 5: that the way that the algorithms operate, they're encouraging us 216 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 5: to increasingly increasingly think in terms of binaries instead of complexities. Literally, 217 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 5: we're starting to think like in zeros and ones like 218 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 5: the coding and computers, and are losing what I think 219 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 5: makes us human and becoming more like automatons, like robots, 220 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 5: which is what these algorithms are intended to do, because 221 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 5: the more that we think in these reductionistic ways, the 222 00:13:53,920 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 5: more susceptible we become to manipulation, and these these algorithms 223 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:06,079 Speaker 5: are designed to do that. The tech tech companies gather 224 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 5: all kinds of information about us, the most intimate details 225 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 5: of our lives. 226 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 4: Every click, view. 227 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 5: And search online is harvested from us to create these 228 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 5: user profiles that are sold to data brokers that are 229 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 5: then sold to corporations who want to sell us things, 230 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 5: to campaigns who want to affect the way that we 231 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 5: vote and the way that we see the world and 232 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 5: the way that we see other people. So we're increasingly 233 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 5: losing our free will and the way Naomi Client talks 234 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 5: about it in her amazing new book Doppelganger, is these 235 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 5: digital profiles that are being created of us, are she 236 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 5: calls them, digital doubles. We're losing our autonomy and our 237 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 5: free will to these digital doubles that are kind of 238 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 5: like these virtual voodoo dolls that get constructed out of 239 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 5: our online behavior and can then be used. I mean 240 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 5: they're sold, like I said, to corporations, can pains, and 241 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 5: anyone who wants to influence what we believe, how we behave, 242 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 5: and those doubles are used to nudge our behavior in 243 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 5: real life. They use our fantasies, our fears, o our 244 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 5: deepest vulnerabilities, our biases, our proclivities to inform how they 245 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 5: can best take advantage of us, you know, in moments 246 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 5: of darkness and moments of weakness. I mean, the amount 247 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 5: of things that they know about us is that is astounding. 248 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 5: They know if we're going through divorce, they know if 249 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 5: we're they knew who were sleeping next to They know 250 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 5: what time we wake up in the morning. They know 251 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 5: how fast we walk, they know what facial expressions we're making, 252 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 5: and all of this is just such an incredible amount 253 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 5: of information that they have on us that, whether whether 254 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 5: we think we're susceptible or not we are, the more 255 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 5: time that we spend on line, the more we lose 256 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 5: our free will to these to these companies that have 257 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 5: access to that information. 258 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 2: I also want to ask about the sentence. In the 259 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 2: days since the Israel Himas war began, our collective loss 260 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 2: of these things is conspicuous on social media, where many 261 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 2: of us are recycling the one sided takes of bots. 262 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 2: And I think this point is so important, whether it's 263 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 2: on Instagram, TikTok x formerly Twitter, sometimes the posts that 264 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 2: you see going super viral and the pages that you 265 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 2: see like posting tons of memes or whatever. I don't 266 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 2: think that we always sit back and realize that there 267 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 2: are not necessarily human beings running the pages or generating 268 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 2: the post. We're at this place in social media and 269 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 2: in our economy where a lot of people and brands 270 00:16:53,320 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 2: and companies have paid to like have pages right count 271 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 2: that they don't necessarily have to manually run, but they 272 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,719 Speaker 2: can like run themselves, you know, and so I'm wondering 273 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 2: about the place of bots and like meme pages in 274 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 2: all of this, where it's like not even necessarily human 275 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 2: beings influencing other human beings directly exactly. 276 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 5: I'm so glad you bring that up, because there's so 277 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 5: much disinformation going around about this war, and a lot 278 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,640 Speaker 5: of it is being spread by bots that then, because 279 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 5: of how viral the content goes, ordinary people begin to recycle, retweet, 280 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 5: and just spread that information, and it just creates this 281 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 5: ripple effect of people just not understanding what is really 282 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 5: going on. And the people who are behind those bots 283 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 5: those accounts are often foreign actors who are using social 284 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 5: media as a weapon of psychological warfare that is intended 285 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 5: to pit us all against each other so that we 286 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 5: can't talk to each other, and we can't, you know, 287 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,680 Speaker 5: we can't address the real issues that we're facing, whether 288 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 5: it's in our country or abroad, and and they're they're 289 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 5: they're chipping away at our capacity for civil discourse and 290 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 5: eroding our democracy. This is a tool of psychological warfare 291 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 5: that is being used in that way, but also just 292 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 5: anybody within the United States who has an interest in 293 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 5: us talking past each other and and not understanding what's 294 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 5: going on, you know, within the military industrial complex, people 295 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 5: who just want to profit off of our sale of 296 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 5: weapons and and such overseas. I mean that that those 297 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 5: are other people who have an interest in spreading disinformation 298 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 5: and causing us to not be able to talk about 299 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 5: this in a way. That's that's constructive. 300 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: That's such a great point, and I think leads to 301 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: this question about propaganda, right. 302 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 3: A lot of us have. 303 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 1: Been seeing the propaganda language right being used when talked 304 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 1: about Palestinians. They're being regarded as quote animals, unhuman, subhuman, 305 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: And so how do we, you know, filter the propaganda 306 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: the disinformation while also holding in mind there's a genocide happening, 307 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: And so how are we carrying those two We're sure 308 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:27,919 Speaker 1: for one side of the aisle it may seem like 309 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: we're speaking in extreme ways, but this is the reality 310 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 1: of Palestinian journalists, Palestinian civilians reporting on the ground. So 311 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: how do we carry all of that as just like 312 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: average citizens. 313 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 3: That want to be informed. 314 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 5: I just think it's so important for us to remember 315 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:47,439 Speaker 5: that the minute that we lose our theory of mind 316 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,719 Speaker 5: for the other, the minute that we lose our capacity 317 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 5: to put ourselves in the shoes of the perceived other, 318 00:19:55,600 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 5: we risk becoming exactly what we're condemning. And I've been 319 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 5: trying to talk to people within my social circle who 320 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 5: I've seen posting what I believe to be like extremely 321 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 5: dangerous and toxic views, and. 322 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 4: Be like, just call out the fact that, like, Okay. 323 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 5: You think these people are monsters, you think these people 324 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:24,360 Speaker 5: are animals, But like, how can you then distinguish yourself 325 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:30,120 Speaker 5: from this perceived other if you too are like surrendering 326 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 5: your capacity for empathy and for having a theory of 327 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 5: mind of the other, and for seeing other people as 328 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 5: human Like I think one of the most beautiful, powerful 329 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 5: and unique things about the human species that distinguishes us 330 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 5: from other animals is that our brains can explore the 331 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 5: liminal spaces of uncertainty and contradiction and complexity, and we 332 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,160 Speaker 5: have mirror neurons that allow us to empathize with people 333 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 5: who are very different from us, and to cultivate a 334 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 5: theory of mind for others, which enables us to have 335 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 5: conversations and co create and collaborate on extraordinary feats. And 336 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 5: this is a gift that we I don't think we 337 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 5: realize how much of it. We are losing to our 338 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 5: digital economy and surveillance capitalism, and I just think that 339 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 5: when we I think we need to keep the conversation 340 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 5: focused on what is happening to our brains, because we're 341 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 5: all being made victims here, and people who we see 342 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 5: who are saying and believing outrageous, horrific things and contributing 343 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 5: to the problem. I think that if we approach them 344 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 5: with a little bit of empathy and understanding as well, 345 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 5: and try to have conversations about why perhaps they're being 346 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 5: misled or manipulated and try to give people the benefit 347 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 5: of the doubt, I think that is going to be 348 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 5: a much more constructive way to be able to change 349 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 5: people's hearts and change people's minds and allow them to 350 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:07,959 Speaker 5: deradicalize and understand that, like, at the at the end 351 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 5: of the day, what matters is protecting human lives, and 352 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 5: right now that's not happening right now, right now, I mean, 353 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 5: we all know what's happening, it's just it's just beyond words. 354 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 5: And I think that the only way we're going to 355 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 5: stop stop this is if we're able to convince some 356 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 5: of the people who have been manipulated into dehumanizing Palestinians 357 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 5: into understanding what's happening in their own minds and how 358 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 5: their tools, how are digital tools, how their digital tools 359 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 5: are being weaponized against them, without condescending, without patronizing, just 360 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,120 Speaker 5: trying to trying to be like, look, we're all victims 361 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 5: of this. I think those are the conversations that we 362 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 5: need to be having, because I don't think people realize 363 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 5: the extent to which they're literally just being manipulated on 364 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 5: a constant basis, and the reality that they're seeing on 365 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 5: their devices is tailored to exploit their deepest fears and biases, 366 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 5: and and and we need to be empathetic to the 367 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 5: fact that that that that they're that that that everyone 368 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,199 Speaker 5: is being made a victim of these technologies, and we 369 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 5: need to figure out how we can collectively guide ourselves 370 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 5: out and regain our autonomy and our capacity for universal empathy, 371 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 5: and and and find ways to pressure our governments to 372 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 5: to be better and and to not fund genocide. 373 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,199 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for all of that, for sharing 374 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 2: all of your insight. I think that our audience tends 375 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 2: to be predominantly Latinas, and I think that a lot 376 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 2: of our audience has come from maybe a Catholic background 377 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 2: or some type of a Christian background, And speaking for myself, 378 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 2: you know, when you grow up Catholic, there is a 379 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 2: sort of there is an emphasis on Israel and Bethlehem 380 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 2: and the Promised Land and all of that. And something 381 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 2: we've been doing on our show is encouraging our listeners 382 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 2: who tend to be Latina's Right not to get all 383 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 2: of their news from social media, to not look to celebrities, 384 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 2: and to not look to influencers, especially with regards to 385 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 2: this issue in particular. And I'm wondering if you have 386 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 2: suggestions for our audience on where they can look instead 387 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 2: of looking to Instagram posts and influencers and social media, 388 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 2: where can they go to get more perspective on the issue. 389 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great question, and 390 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 5: I just encourage people to to I mean, I feel 391 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 5: like I can't general Well, Okay, first of all, I 392 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 5: used to work in public media. I came I came 393 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 5: to the Early Times from KPBS, which is the NPR 394 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 5: and PBS station in San Diego. 395 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:12,880 Speaker 4: So I always. 396 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 5: I always encourage people to support and to turn to 397 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 5: public media in times of crisis to understand what is 398 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 5: happening in our world because public media is among it's 399 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 5: just it's the least likely to be affected or one 400 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 5: of the least likely to be affected by corporate interests 401 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:39,199 Speaker 5: and and and and just much more likely to be 402 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 5: I don't want to say objective or impartial, because I 403 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 5: feel like those terms are so loaded now. But I 404 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 5: do think that they try to approach thing NPR, PBS, 405 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 5: news are They try to approach things with with with 406 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 5: real nuance and consideration of the facts, and not not 407 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 5: let certain interests affect the way that they cover things. 408 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,400 Speaker 5: And obviously I work at the Alley Times. I think 409 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 5: we have amazing journalists here and who are doing who 410 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 5: are doing. 411 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 4: Great work on this issue and and all. 412 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 5: I mean, there's there's so many publications to choose from, 413 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 5: and and not all of them are consistently great on 414 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,120 Speaker 5: especially on on foreign affairs. But I do encourage people 415 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 5: to just seek out that there's always certain journalists at 416 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 5: every inst at almost every journalistic organization whose work is 417 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 5: worth following. And and I just I encourage people to 418 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 5: make to make their own decisions based on on on 419 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 5: assessing like who are the best journalists at these at 420 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 5: these various publications who are on the ground whenever possible, 421 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 5: or who who actually demons straight an interest in informing 422 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 5: the public. 423 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 4: Versus just. 424 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 5: You know, just versus like furthering divisions and disinformation. 425 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:13,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that. 426 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: Definitely support public media. I want to ask you about 427 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: independent thinking in general and creating more space for it. 428 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: A lot of us have gravitated to the digital space, 429 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: especially if we're a millennial or gen Z. We haven't 430 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 1: A lot of us haven't known a time without the internet, 431 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: right or without social media. Like we talk about that 432 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 1: all the time, Like we met online. I remember when 433 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: I made my first aim account, my first MySpace, Like, 434 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 1: we've been online for so long, it's it makes me wonder, 435 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,919 Speaker 1: like is it even possible to create a space for 436 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: independent thinking online? Is this something we need to move offline? 437 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: Like what are your thoughts on that? 438 00:27:54,880 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 5: I do think that it's possible. I mean, like, well, 439 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:01,439 Speaker 5: first of all, I just want to. 440 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:02,199 Speaker 4: Say that whenever we. 441 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 5: Fall into this adversarial US versus them binary way of 442 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 5: thinking that our digital spaces encourage, we we are less 443 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 5: able to fight against, Like we're less able to fight 444 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 5: for our common interests as the non billionaire classes because 445 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 5: we're not able to talk to each other, We're not 446 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 5: able to reach any form of compromise, and that's what 447 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 5: these billionaires want. They want to protect the status quo. 448 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 5: And whenever we start to attack each other instead of 449 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 5: the systems that they are protecting, it strengthens the status 450 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 5: quo because we have like a form of paralysis. But 451 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 5: to your question, I do think that there's a way 452 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 5: for these digital spaces to embrace, for us within these 453 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 5: digital spaces, to embrace a more non violent form of 454 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 5: communication that will encourage actual changes to take place in 455 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 5: the real world. And I say non violent communication because 456 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 5: this is one thing I've realized in recent years. I've 457 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 5: just been challenged a lot the more that I spend 458 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 5: time offline, like in the real world, to talking to 459 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 5: people who have very different political views for me or 460 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 5: just different experiences for me. I've realized that, like because 461 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 5: I've talked to a lot of I've talked to a 462 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 5: number of extremists, religious extremists, right wing extremists who have 463 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 5: become deradicalized and who left extremism behind as a result 464 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 5: of people communicating with them non violently, either in real 465 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 5: life or in digital spaces, and I mean, there's an 466 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 5: entire book, Non Violent Communication, which I've written about before, 467 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 5: which which is really helpful for this. But also Reverend 468 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 5: James Lawson here in Los Angeles, who is a close 469 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 5: ally Martin Luther King junior, and who's still alive today. 470 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: He was. 471 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,959 Speaker 5: He's a leading theorist of nonviolence who teaches a class 472 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 5: on non violence. 473 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 4: And it's all about treating. 474 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 5: The perceived other, the person who we see as our adversary, 475 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 5: as as a fellow human being and and and instead 476 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,959 Speaker 5: of our immortal enemy or an existential threat to our lives, 477 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 5: even if we feel that, even if we feel like 478 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 5: their beliefs and their actions in the world are a 479 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 5: threat to us and the people that we love, if 480 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 5: we if we condemn them in violent language, no matter 481 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 5: how true we believe that language to be, we're actually 482 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 5: causing them to double down and and too, and losing 483 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 5: the ability to potentially persuade them and and change them. 484 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 5: And I've talked to people former extremists who have been 485 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 5: changed by people speaking with them, speaking to them with 486 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 5: empathy and with like just these non violent forms of 487 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 5: communication and and and even though they have not these 488 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 5: non violent forms of communication have not predominated in digital spaces. 489 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 5: I do see them increasingly going viral. People like a 490 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 5: low fade men and who I wrote about, a non 491 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 5: binary activist and who embraces love towards their towards the 492 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 5: people who express hatred towards them. Love and empathy and 493 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 5: humanity do go viral. I think so many of us 494 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 5: are exhausted by hatred and adversarial thinking that we're increasingly 495 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 5: likely to want these things, and so they do go viral. 496 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 5: And we just we need to we we just we 497 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 5: need to model ways of being in digital spaces and 498 00:31:54,720 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 5: in the real world that are revolutionary and contradictory to 499 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 5: those that have been set in motion. And once these 500 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 5: tech companies see that this is what we want, I 501 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 5: hope and I do believe that that that that they 502 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 5: will be forced to change their business models. 503 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're thank you so much, Gene for giving us 504 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 2: and our listeners so much to chew on and so 505 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 2: much to think about, especially as I think we all 506 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 2: scroll aimlessly, you know, and we're clicking and we're liking 507 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 2: and we're sharing, and I hope that this is a 508 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 2: type of conversation that will really like give our listeners, 509 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 2: you know, pause and really think about what it is 510 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 2: that we're consuming and what we're sharing and what we're liking, 511 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 2: and what we're encouraging the algorithm to feed us more of. 512 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I do a follow up question. 513 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: You know, obviously you're you're a columnists, so you you 514 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: write for a living, but just in general, you know, 515 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about out you know, right, 516 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: you because you have a column based on your opinion, right, 517 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: what's your process for backing up your belief with research 518 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: and supported arguments? Because even if someone is not a columnist, right, 519 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: we all have our opinions and how are we backing 520 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: them up? 521 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 3: Right? 522 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 1: And so how would you advise someone to that has 523 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: this belief, has this opinion, and how can they you know, 524 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: back that up in the way you do, but at 525 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: their own level. 526 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 5: Well, so for every column that I write, I'm I'm 527 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 5: kind of I think I'm an outlier. Well, I don't 528 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 5: want to say that because I'm not. I'm not fully 529 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 5: informed of everybody else's creative process as a columnist. But 530 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 5: I for every column, even if it's a short column, 531 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 5: I talk to at least a dozen people, and often 532 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 5: these are long conversations like our long conversations where I'm 533 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 5: just and I love these conversations because I'm just. I 534 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 5: go to people who are experts on a subject that 535 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 5: I intend to write about, and I just I call 536 00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 5: them and I pick their brains, and I just I 537 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 5: don't even necessar crely have a set list of questions. 538 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 5: I just I want to hear what's interesting to them 539 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 5: about this issue and and and just pick their brains 540 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 5: in a sort of free flowing way. 541 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:17,320 Speaker 4: And I just I feel like we have forgotten this art. 542 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 5: Of of deep, long, lingering conversations with each other. And 543 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 5: that's what I love about about you guys, and and 544 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 5: podcasting in general, is it creates a space for us 545 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 5: to really just dive deep and and to explore the 546 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 5: expertise of so many different people and the life experiences 547 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 5: of different people. So just don't expect I mean, obviously, 548 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 5: doing research and making sure that you're corroborating your sources 549 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 5: and that they're reliable sources to the best of your knowledge. 550 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 5: Doing as much research as possible is great, but there's 551 00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:00,320 Speaker 5: nothing that substitutes having conversations with people who have lived 552 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 5: experience in the area that you're trying to understand, who 553 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 5: have spent their lives or written entire books about certain subjects. 554 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 5: So so I do encourage people to try to have 555 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 5: those conversations with people. If they don't have the time 556 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 5: to seek people out on their own, then obviously listening 557 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 5: to podcasts long form interviews online. 558 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 4: Are great as well. 559 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 5: But I just I just think it's so important and 560 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:36,320 Speaker 5: for us to do that and to just question, question 561 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,320 Speaker 5: the information that is automatically fed to us, because that 562 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:43,800 Speaker 5: that information that is appearing on our feeds is, even 563 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 5: if it's accurate, it is, it's only so accurate. It's 564 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 5: only one small piece of the picture in most cases, 565 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 5: and and it is designed to to exploit our particular 566 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 5: biases or to reinforce our biases, and not necessarily to 567 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,800 Speaker 5: broaden our perspective in ways that can be extremely useful. 568 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 5: So seeking out as many perspectives as possible while avoiding propagandists, 569 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,799 Speaker 5: which like it can be an entire podcast episode on 570 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 5: its own, like who are the gas Lighters? Like how 571 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 5: do you spot somebody who's just like going deep on 572 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 5: a subject in a way that's extremely deceptive. But I 573 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 5: do feel like we all kind of have a feel 574 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 5: for or we can develop a feel for who are 575 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 5: trustworthy voices, and usually it's people who are not speaking 576 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,239 Speaker 5: in binaries and who are not trying to reinforce your 577 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,280 Speaker 5: hatred of other people. 578 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 2: I think that's huge. I think that's a great takeaway 579 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 2: folks who are not speaking in binaries or reinforcing hatred 580 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 2: of other people. I think that's a really great summation 581 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:05,279 Speaker 2: for how our folks, our listeners can like navigate misinformation 582 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 2: and propaganda online. 583 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, because I think in for latin As and a 584 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: lot of us in multi generational household, we're doing the 585 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: work for the family, right. It's not just me disseminating 586 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,879 Speaker 1: information and going through news and what's propaganda and what's misinformation, 587 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:21,800 Speaker 1: but it's like what is my mom seeing on Twitter? 588 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: What is she seeing on Facebook? And kind of navigating 589 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 1: those conversations as well, because we're not just doing it 590 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 1: for ourselves. 591 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:30,760 Speaker 3: It's also a lot of the time it's for our families. 592 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:31,720 Speaker 4: So true. 593 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, Yeah, the amount of times that my Aalita usually 594 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 5: it's my Awaitha will send me something and she's like, 595 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 5: can you believe this is happening and I'm like, oh no, 596 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 5: that's not that's not happening. And yeah, especially with my 597 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 5: dad because my dad, yeah, my dad is he has 598 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:57,400 Speaker 5: struggled with delusions of persecution and hallucinations, and he's constantly 599 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:03,359 Speaker 5: coming to me with video, YouTube ideas and articles from 600 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 5: Russian news outlets that are being targeted to him, that 601 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,239 Speaker 5: are preying on his particular paranoias. 602 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 4: And I'm just like, ugh, yeah, Latinos. 603 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 5: We often have to play that role of helping our 604 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:24,240 Speaker 5: families navigate this extremely complicated media environment. 605 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 2: While also like not making it about us, right right, 606 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 2: And I find that and my grandmother too, and older Catholics, 607 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,239 Speaker 2: older Latini Catholics in particular, you know, there is a personal, 608 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 2: seemingly a personal vested interest in Israel because of all, 609 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,399 Speaker 2: because of everything, you know, especially the religious connections there. 610 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 2: And I think that that's a big piece of it, 611 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 2: is like this is not about us, Like this particular 612 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 2: issue really is not about us and how we feel 613 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,919 Speaker 2: about it about Israel, and I think that's I think 614 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 2: a big takeaway for me is like even decentering ourselves. 615 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 2: Obviously we're latin As here having this conversation, but I 616 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 2: think that's like an important takeaway too, you know, And 617 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 2: it's interesting to see folks who really are are not Israeli, 618 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 2: are not Palestinian, are not Jewish or not Muslim, also 619 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 2: having very strong opinions in one direction or the other, 620 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:23,839 Speaker 2: and how that sways things like I think a lot 621 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 2: of people somehow see themselves as part of the issue 622 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 2: when maybe we're not. 623 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 4: You know, yeah, that's one hundred percent true. 624 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 5: Like the amount of self self anointed experts on this 625 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 5: who've never visited or lived in the region is kind 626 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 5: of crazy. So I do think that decent ourselves is 627 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,480 Speaker 5: really important, but also recognizing that we do have agency 628 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:51,640 Speaker 5: when it comes to protecting people's lives. I think we 629 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 5: can condemn the actions of the Israeli government, we can 630 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,759 Speaker 5: condemn the actions of Hamas, and we can act in 631 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 5: response to them and urge our government to do what 632 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 5: is right without without broadly characterizing Israeli's or Palestinians as 633 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:20,839 Speaker 5: evil based on the actions of a few specific individuals 634 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 5: who are who I mean, groups that are in power. 635 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 5: I just think it's really important for us to distinguish 636 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,880 Speaker 5: and while we're decentering ourselves, also acknowledge that we do 637 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 5: have a responsibility as citizens of the United States, where 638 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:39,319 Speaker 5: so many resources are being sent to this war. We 639 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:45,040 Speaker 5: have a responsibility to act on behalf of life and 640 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 5: peace to the extent possible. 641 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,239 Speaker 2: And in that spirit and in that vein, a lot 642 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,279 Speaker 2: of folks have been sharing, you know, call your representative, 643 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,200 Speaker 2: call your senators and demand a cease fire. And that 644 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,840 Speaker 2: is one thing that we can each you and using 645 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,400 Speaker 2: that personal and civic and global responsibility as human beings 646 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,360 Speaker 2: to make the phone call. You know, it's not something 647 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,600 Speaker 2: we can vote on right this second, but you can 648 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,960 Speaker 2: get in touch with your representative and it. 649 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,839 Speaker 5: Makes a difference. They count those calls. I mean, every 650 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:22,239 Speaker 5: call does count. As small or as quaint as the 651 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 5: action may seem, it really it really does make a 652 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,239 Speaker 5: difference to make those calls and to talk to your 653 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 5: friends and family members about the importance of making those calls. 654 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,080 Speaker 1: Yes, I'm going to link in the news letter and 655 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 1: our show notes where you can find your representative if 656 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:42,560 Speaker 1: you're in California. That sometime is like the first hurdle. 657 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:44,040 Speaker 1: You don't know where to find them, you don't know 658 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 1: their information. So we're going to link that in the 659 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: show notes as well. Thank you so much Jean for 660 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:50,880 Speaker 1: joining us today. I also want to shout out that 661 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:55,279 Speaker 1: there's been a long history of Palestinian Latin American solidarity, 662 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,400 Speaker 1: and so I just want to call that out and 663 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: also say that we will be producing another episode about 664 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,600 Speaker 1: this with some more experts that can speak more on this. 665 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 1: So thank you so much for listening. Thank you Gene 666 00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,480 Speaker 1: for joining us today. This has been an incredible conversation. 667 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,319 Speaker 1: You're welcome back anytime I think we need to talk 668 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: about propaganda next. 669 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,880 Speaker 5: I'd love to thank you both. I really enjoyed speaking 670 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,759 Speaker 5: with you and you guys are doing great work. So 671 00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 5: thank you so much. 672 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,799 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for tuning into another episode of 673 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 1: lok A Radio. We will catch you next time us. 674 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,279 Speaker 2: Lokata Radio a Radio Fani Novela is executive produced and 675 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,959 Speaker 2: hosted by me Mala Munos and Viosa. 676 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,920 Speaker 3: Fam Story editing by Me Fiosa. 677 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:41,880 Speaker 2: Audio editing by Stephanie Franco. 678 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,400 Speaker 1: Thank you to our locomotives, our listeners for all of 679 00:42:44,440 --> 00:43:33,360 Speaker 1: your support.