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Speaker 1: Amy Robock and TJ.

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Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Elisa Donovan.

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Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, Elisa Donovan here and welcome back to Killer Thriller.

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Speaker 1: In the second part of my conversation with actor David Lasher,

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Speaker 1: we are turning to another true crime film from his career,

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Speaker 1: and this case is even more unsettling. Twisted Desire is

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Speaker 1: based on the shocking nineteen ninety murders of James and

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Speaker 1: Kathy Wiseman in rural Virginia. Prosecutors said fourteen year old

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Speaker 1: Jessica Wiseman and her seventeen year old boyfriend Douglas Thomas

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Speaker 1: carefully planned the murders because Jessica's parents stood in the

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Speaker 1: way of their relationship. So what drew you to this

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Speaker 1: role or how did it come to you.

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Speaker 3: I might have been on hiatus from some show I

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Speaker 3: was doing, so I had that window where you can

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Speaker 3: go off and do a movie. And yeah, it wasn't

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Speaker 3: a huge role, but I think it was integral to

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Speaker 3: the story because this girl wants a relationship with me,

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Speaker 3: with my character so badly, and it's so devastated that

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Speaker 3: her father has ruined it that it sets in motion

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Speaker 3: what she ends up doing, and again she finds some

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Speaker 3: patsy of a guy to murder her father. And also

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Speaker 3: another similarity is Daniel Baldwin is a scary dude whoa

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Speaker 3: he yes, right, Like I remember being there being like

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Speaker 3: this guy is big and thick and his voice and

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Speaker 3: he's just a scary guy.

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Speaker 1: Yes, his whole demeanor is very intimidating for sure. I

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Speaker 1: mean I think that was probably intentional. Yeah, but it's

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Speaker 1: so to give the plot really quickly, a teenage girl

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Speaker 1: convinced this is an ex con who's in love with

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Speaker 1: her to kill her parents so they can be together.

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Speaker 1: But the real thing is she wants to be with

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Speaker 1: your character. So it's really about manipulation and it's twisted,

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Speaker 1: and it's based on this real life nineteen ninety double

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Speaker 1: murder of James Baxter and Kathy Wiseman, committed by their

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Speaker 1: fourteen year old daughter and his seventeen year old her

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Speaker 1: seventeen year old boyfriend. But in the movie version of

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Speaker 1: the crime, the girl who plots her parents' murders is

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Speaker 1: almost eighteen, who's Melissa's character, and the shooter was a

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Speaker 1: few years older than that. But in reality, they were

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Speaker 1: fourteen and seventeen I mean, did you have a hard

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Speaker 1: time believing that the real people at the center of

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Speaker 1: the story, who are fourteen and seventeen?

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I don't remember. I don't remember knowing that.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 3: Off the ages.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so they made Melissa eighteen or almost eighteen, and

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Speaker 1: then the x con boyfriend love interest was probably like twenty.

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Speaker 1: He was out of high school in the movie.

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Speaker 3: Right, yeah, that was clear. He was working at a gas.

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Speaker 1: Station, right whe Yeah, yeah, I mean fourteen to seventeen.

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Speaker 1: My I mean Scarlett is fourteen. I can't wait. When

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Speaker 1: I think about this.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, what, Oh my god. Yeah, I mean there's

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Speaker 3: a fourteen year old doesn't even know. They have no

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Speaker 3: way to make, they have no idea what they're doing, right,

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Speaker 3: there's no justification for what that kid did.

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Speaker 1: No, No, I mean I think that or do you

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Speaker 1: think that we underestimate how powerful teenagers feelings can be

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Speaker 1: and their relationships. You know, there's so much drama. I

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Speaker 1: know that, As I said, my daughter's fourteen, so there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of drama in our house right now. But

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Speaker 1: going from that to actually this, I mean, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of unimaginable.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the other famous story that I think of

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Speaker 3: is the Menendez brothers, who were you know, even recently

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Speaker 3: claiming that they were physically abused and in danger of

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Speaker 3: their parents and claiming it was self defense. But I

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Speaker 3: don't know, what do you think.

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Speaker 1: Because in this case, I didn't from everything that I've read,

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Speaker 1: it isn't you know. She wasn't even claiming that her

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Speaker 1: parents were abusive. It was just simply I want to

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Speaker 1: be with this person, and they don't like him, like

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Speaker 1: or they don't approve of him. So because this is

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Speaker 1: the way. At first, it seems like, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: about one thing, but really it's that this girl is

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Speaker 1: manipulative because they were just overprotective, right.

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Speaker 3: Well, the way I think they set it up is

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Speaker 3: that the father is very overprotective. Like changing clothes, she

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Speaker 3: asked her, can I go study where? You know? What

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Speaker 3: are you studying for? What task? What class? What period

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Speaker 3: are you studying? You know? And then yeah, you know,

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Speaker 3: the mother is just like, don't talk to your father

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Speaker 3: that way. The mother is just like, you know, let

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Speaker 3: the dad do whatever he wants. Don't protect the daughter

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Speaker 3: at all. There's no excuse for what she did, obviously,

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Speaker 3: but it was definitely a very overbearing you know dad

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Speaker 3: right in.

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Speaker 1: The So unlike in the in the film where both

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Speaker 1: of the parents are shot in their bed, in real life,

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Speaker 1: Jessica's mother survived the first gun shot long enough to

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Speaker 1: try to reach her daughter's bedroom, and then she was

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Speaker 1: shot again. And just reading details like that is just

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Speaker 1: it's heartbreaking. That's an egregious I mean, that's, without a doubt,

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Speaker 1: first degree murder.

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Speaker 3: Did the girl tell him to kill my mom too?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, she said, both of them, both of them.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I hope she I hope she's still in jail.

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Speaker 1: So she was Jessica. This is one of the most

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Speaker 1: astonishing parts of this whole case is what happened afterwards.

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Speaker 1: So Jessica was fourteen and she remained in the juvenile system. Douglas,

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Speaker 1: the boyfriend, was seventeen and tried as an adult. He

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Speaker 1: was sentenced to death and eventually executed. I mean, does

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Speaker 1: that surprise you. I can tell by the espression on

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Speaker 1: your face that it does.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you don't hear about a lot of executions,

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Speaker 3: especially of a seventeen year old.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, I was pretty struck by that too.

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Speaker 3: What was her sentence?

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Speaker 1: She was released let's see, so at the time, Virginia

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Speaker 1: law did not permit her to be tried as an

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Speaker 1: adult at fourteen, so she was educated delinquent in juvenile

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Speaker 1: court and was committed to a juvenile correctional facility until

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Speaker 1: her twenty first birthday in ninety seven, and she was released.

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Speaker 1: Why don't she turned twenty one?

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Speaker 3: Wow? Twenty one? She was released? So Dick, didn't she

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Speaker 3: do what she did? What Donna did, conspired to murder

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Speaker 3: her dad instead of her husband. Donna got forty years

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Speaker 3: and she whatever, she got twenty seven. Yeah, and this

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Speaker 3: girl got out at twenty one.

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Speaker 1: She served seven and she's like the mastermind of the whole.

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Speaker 1: I don't understand that, as justice.

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Speaker 3: And Donna's life was legitimately in danger, this girl just

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Speaker 3: couldn't have the boyfriend she wanted.

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Speaker 1: Her dad was annoying, just right exactly, I want this

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Speaker 1: boyfriend and my dad's annoying. I don't. I don't understand

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Speaker 1: that at all. So, I mean, this is one of

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Speaker 1: the questions, right of this difficult question of the person

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Speaker 1: who plans the murder just as responsible as the person

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Speaker 1: who actually commits it. And these both these cases and

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Speaker 1: movies sort of take the opposite end of that confusing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I disagree with that. I think the person that

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Speaker 3: pulls the trigger is the murderer, and that is a

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Speaker 3: bigger crime than paying someone to do it. I mean, right,

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Speaker 3: conspiracy to commit murder is you know, a serious things,

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Speaker 3: but it means that person didn't have That person is

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Speaker 3: not a killer and not a cold blooded killer. Like

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Speaker 3: Donna said, I could never have pulled that trigger.

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Speaker 1: And I appreciated in this movie how they show his character.

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Speaker 1: He said, I don't know if I can do this.

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Speaker 1: You know, he does have those doubts, and then she says,

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Speaker 1: what you have to so we can be together. So

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Speaker 1: they really also don't shy away from the twisted, diabolical

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Speaker 1: nature of this girl that even when you know the

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Speaker 1: shooters having second thoughts, like maybe this isn't the greatest idea,

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Speaker 1: and she's like, no, you have to do it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well then I don't know. What do you think

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Speaker 3: the person that conspires it and puts it together just

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Speaker 3: as bad.

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Speaker 1: No, I think I agree with you. I think when

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Speaker 1: push comes to shove in the moment, you have a

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Speaker 1: choice to do it or not, And particularly in this

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Speaker 1: kind of a situation where there's no immediate threat, right,

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Speaker 1: It's not like somebody is immediately going to hurt you.

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Speaker 1: But I think it is a particular sort of twisted

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Speaker 1: manipulation and manipulative personality that could do this to another person.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know. Maybe I'm contradicting myself now because

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking it's still it's still pretty bad what she did.

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Speaker 1: But I but I agree with you actually committing the murder.

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Speaker 1: That's that's worse. It's worse, all.

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Speaker 3: Right when you're thinking of the punishment, isn't it about

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Speaker 3: like how long does society think it will take for

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Speaker 3: this person to rehabilitate and not act like this again?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 1: Right, that's supposed to be what the serving of the

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Speaker 1: time is, right.

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I think they're both like this young

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Speaker 3: girl when they let her out of prison. I mean,

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Speaker 3: obviously she didn't do this again, but you'd think, like,

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Speaker 3: what if someone else gets in her way?

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Speaker 1: What right is this going to be her problem solving

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Speaker 1: tactic for everything?

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Speaker 3: You know, Oh, I'll just flirt with some idiot and

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Speaker 3: have him kill it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So Melissa, she was she was like America's sweetheart at

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Speaker 1: the time of this movie. I mean, were you surprised

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Speaker 1: that she took such a dark role.

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Speaker 3: I think I understand why. Right, she was coming off

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Speaker 3: of Oh she was Clarissa, Clarissa, she hitne Clarissa explains

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Speaker 3: it all. And I think she wanted to not be

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Speaker 3: that little Nickelodeon tween kind of actress. She wanted to

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Speaker 3: be do something dramatic. So she's like, let me be

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Speaker 3: a sick you know, twisted, you know, murdering mastermind right right,

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Speaker 3: it made sense. I think it was a good choice

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Speaker 3: for her. I think Paula produced it, probably helped choose

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Speaker 3: the movie, and they did a good job with it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think. And then I feel like

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Speaker 1: Sabrina started probably right after that. Yeah, you're right, So

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Speaker 1: I know it was over thirty years ago. But what

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Speaker 1: do you remember the most about making the film.

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Speaker 3: I remember just having a really good time. Melissa and

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Speaker 3: I got along so well. She was awesome. Charleston was

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Speaker 3: so much fun. Have you ever filmed there?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I haven't filmed there, but I've been to a

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Speaker 1: wedding there which was pretty fun.

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Speaker 3: Great city, and I mean I remember the Jeremy Jordan

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Speaker 3: that that actor was very eccentric.

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Speaker 1: Oh really, No, but I thought he was quite good.

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Speaker 1: And then I didn't even realize that he was like

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Speaker 1: a pop star or something. Yes, a singer.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he was a pop star before this movie. And

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Speaker 3: I thought he did a great job.

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Speaker 1: I did too, So like his.

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Speaker 3: Choices I remember were so like not what you'd expect. Yes,

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Speaker 3: it was very thoughtful, but he was. He was a

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Speaker 3: unique dude, really, and I think Melissa just couldn't figure.

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Speaker 1: Him out, right, She was like where's David.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I remember her coming to me being like, what's

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Speaker 3: with this guy?

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Speaker 1: Oh my god? Maybe he was method, you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: he was like getting deeply into his character. I was

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Speaker 1: very impressed with his work too.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he ended up doing a great job, right. I

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Speaker 3: remember seeing the movie being like no way, oh like surprise. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I was surprised.

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Speaker 1: Oh man. So getting back to this idea of do

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Speaker 1: we underestimate how powerful teenage relationships can become when the

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Speaker 1: brain isn't fully formed yet and the emotions are big

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Speaker 1: and all of that. So I mean, did it did

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Speaker 1: it ever cross your mind like that could this happen

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Speaker 1: in my family? Like now as an adult, do you

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Speaker 1: think about that? Is that?

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Speaker 3: Ah? My god? Well I do have a sixteen year

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Speaker 3: old daughter. That's pretty strong willed and defiant, right, I mean,

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Speaker 3: so is I. But no, I never think of that obviously,

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Speaker 3: But I do think of like that line as a

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Speaker 3: parent where you have to not really care if they

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Speaker 3: like you or they're offended by your choices for them.

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Speaker 3: You're their parent, not their friend. And I, you know,

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Speaker 3: I fall. My default is like, don't upset anybody. You know,

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Speaker 3: she wants to go to this party where there's no adults.

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Speaker 3: Why are we going to stop her? All her friends

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Speaker 3: are going, and Jill's like be her father, Like there's

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Speaker 3: boys there.

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Speaker 1: We just we are in the midst. I mean, Scarlett

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Speaker 1: is home today. She's supposed to be at surf camp,

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Speaker 1: but she wasn't feeling well, so she's home. I have

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Speaker 1: to I'm gonna have to whisper now. But we were

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Speaker 1: literally just having this conversation over the weekend, Charlie and

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Speaker 1: I I'm like, uh, okay, so were She's telling me,

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Speaker 1: you know, none of my friends like you. They think

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Speaker 1: you're mean. And I have to swallow my feeling of

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Speaker 1: like I want everybody to like me. Aren't I cool?

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Speaker 1: You know, to like I don't care if they like me?

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Speaker 1: I don't care if they like me and also don't

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Speaker 1: speak to me that way. That's very disrespectful, you know.

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Speaker 1: But it's like it's hard, it's but I agree with

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Speaker 1: you. You can't be You're not their friend.

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Speaker 3: And teenagers are so they're so sensitive and they know

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Speaker 3: exactly what your sore spots are and how to get

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Speaker 3: to you. She knows that you want to be liked,

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Speaker 3: yes and yes, and they're and their emotions are you know,

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Speaker 3: everything is so heavy, like everything, Like I say to

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Speaker 3: Chelsea all the time, in five years you're being in college,

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Speaker 3: You're not even going to remember any of this, right,

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Speaker 3: these things that you think are the the end of

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Speaker 3: the world, right, like, none of this is going to matter.

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Speaker 1: Right, the hormones, the hormones. No, they can't see it.

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Speaker 1: And then how about when the dad he was he's,

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Speaker 1: as we said, a very intimidating presence. He goes to

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Speaker 1: the party to pick her up. I remember my mom

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Speaker 1: going into a nightclub when I was seventeen and taking

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Speaker 1: me out, and I now, if it was my dad,

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Speaker 1: I would have had a different reaction. But my mom,

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Speaker 1: I was like, what are you doing here? How dare

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Speaker 1: you come in here? After me, you know. Meanwhile, she's like,

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Speaker 1: you said that I did, And I stormed out in

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Speaker 1: front of her and went to my car. And then

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Speaker 1: she said, now, oh, I was so afraid you weren't

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Speaker 1: going to drive home, that you were just going to

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Speaker 1: like drive away and never come back. And meanwhile I

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Speaker 1: was sweating it, like I am in so much trouble.

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Speaker 3: Good, there needs to be still that level of like respect.

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Speaker 3: This is my family. These are the only people that

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Speaker 3: love me, like and care about me.

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Speaker 1: Right. That was not the response of Melissa's character in

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Speaker 1: this movie. She was like, Okay, I guess I have

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Speaker 1: to kill Dad if he since he's come into this.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I'll tell you like this this scary. Scariest people

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Speaker 3: in the world are like mentally unstable adolescents.

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Speaker 1: Yes, right, like, yes, I was.

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Speaker 3: Held up one time at gunpoint in New York on

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Speaker 3: sixth Avenue way really with my buddy Doug Ellen. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: We we were walking back to his parents' apartment sixth

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Speaker 3: then what fifty seventh, outside of Stelly, right, And it

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Speaker 3: was must have been one in the morning. We're coming

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Speaker 3: home at the end of the night, and these three

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Speaker 3: kids came up to us held a gun. One of

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Speaker 3: them held a gun right in my stomach, and all

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Speaker 3: I kept thinking was, this is a child. He won't

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Speaker 3: even know what he's doing, right, right, Like if you're

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Speaker 3: held up by a thirty year old. This guy knows

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Speaker 3: he's the consequences, but like a sixteen year old kid

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Speaker 3: has no freaking clue what they're doing. They'll look, they'll

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Speaker 3: regret it when they're thirty, but meanwhile you're dead. Yes,

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Speaker 3: so I find like, yeah, mentally unstable young you know,

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Speaker 3: adolescents are really scary and dangerous.

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Speaker 1: I think you are exactly right. It is that the

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Speaker 1: literally their brains are not fully formed, so they can't

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Speaker 1: fully understand consequences and you know, and that desire to

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Speaker 1: have what you want when you want it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, look, but this's his character. You know,

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Speaker 3: could have used a good therapist and maybe a psychiatrist

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Speaker 3: and some impulse control medication. Correct.

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Speaker 1: Did working on two movies like this that you know,

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Speaker 1: based on real murder cases so early in your career

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Speaker 1: have any kind of particular impact on you.

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Speaker 3: No, For me, it was kind of about the work

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Speaker 3: and you know, just getting to act in front of

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Speaker 3: the camera and connecting with the different cast members, pleasing

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Speaker 3: the director. I wasn't. I didn't really, but you know what,

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Speaker 3: I did a lot of these. When after the Donna

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Speaker 3: Yaclick movie ended, Prime Video automatically pulls up Violation of

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Speaker 3: Trust starring me and Katie Segal and Charlie the Ross

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Speaker 3: about another freaking true crime, crazy story.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, guess what You're coming back, David, and we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about that too.

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Speaker 3: And Jill's like, why is Prime Video bringing this up

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Speaker 3: as your next thing to watch? Is it like finding

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Speaker 3: the algorithm David Lasher and real life murders?

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Speaker 1: Listen, just ask Charlie what our algorithm is. Now everything

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Speaker 1: our Netflix account is under his name and everything that

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Speaker 1: comes up is murder related and trying.

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Speaker 3: He's like, oh my god, oh god, you must see

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Speaker 3: the craziest stories.

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Speaker 1: Oh boy, oh boy, I sure do. Was making either

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Speaker 1: of these films Cries on Herd or Twist to Desire

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Speaker 1: emotionally heavier than the other, was one more difficult.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the Donnie Yaklick one. I just I remember, even

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Speaker 3: though it was so long ago, I do remember walking

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Speaker 3: alone around this prison with my headphones on, listening to

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Speaker 3: sad music, thinking about I even remember the moments in

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Speaker 3: my life. I was thinking about to try and go

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Speaker 3: back in there and have that last scene with her

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Speaker 3: where where I have to cry. I mean, legitimately, he

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Speaker 3: should be crying. I mean he's telling his mom like

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Speaker 3: it's okay, you left me with no one and I understood,

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Speaker 3: I still love you, and I remember it being very

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Speaker 3: heavy and sad.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I can believe that.

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Speaker 3: It's a much sadder story. I mean the cries unheard

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Speaker 3: is kind of sensationalists, like just a crazy teenager. Really

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Speaker 3: nothing more than that, like tragedy.

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Speaker 1: The twisted desire, right, yeah, I'm sorry.

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Speaker 3: Twisted twisted desire was just more like you know, it

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Speaker 3: seemed like an entertaining story where I didn't feel so

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Speaker 3: sad for the character I was working with. Yeah, like

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Speaker 3: Jacqueline Smith and that character and what she did to

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Speaker 3: her husband and to her son was so sad, right, Like, you.

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Speaker 1: Don't feel any there's no kind of redemption or sense

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Speaker 1: of justice in the end because you kind of you

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Speaker 1: don't want her husband to be alive. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is a horrible man. But then you also don't want

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Speaker 1: her to.

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Speaker 3: Say they killed him. I was like, go check, make

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Speaker 3: sure he's dead. I was sure he was going to

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Speaker 3: get up and be like.

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Speaker 2: You right, right, But so she says that in the

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Speaker 2: things in the some of the video that I watched

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Speaker 2: of her, of the real Donna speaking later, and the.

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Speaker 1: Transcripts that I've read where she says, I was, you know,

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Speaker 1: I was waiting for him to get up when he

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Speaker 1: was in the driveway. I just kept thinking, he's going

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Speaker 1: to get up, and he's going to come after me.

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Speaker 3: That's what jud and I thought watching it, like is

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Speaker 3: he dead? Like make sure he's dead? Is that scary?

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Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, I mean that guy deserved to die

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Speaker 3: because he was going to kill her, right.

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Speaker 1: But it's interesting the son, Denny, who you play, he

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Speaker 1: did in real life support his mom much like it's

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Speaker 1: reflected in the movie. But then there's another apparently there's

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Speaker 1: another daughter, not the Hillary Swank character, another daughter who

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Speaker 1: has a whole different story and is like, the mom

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Speaker 1: made it up and my dad was a perfect man,

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Speaker 1: and but you know, these are always yes. And I

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Speaker 1: just don't personally think it is feasible nor possible for

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Speaker 1: a woman to make up all of this abuse to

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Speaker 1: such a degree, Like it's just it's crazy. This is

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Speaker 1: like a kid who just didn't see it or doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to believe there could be a bad man.

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Speaker 3: Well, Hilary Swank's character lived in the house with them

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Speaker 3: and testified for Donna that this was true. And Donna's

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Speaker 3: sister also was a wakener saw the whole thing. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I don't think it's possible that she made all this up.

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Speaker 1: No, no, neither do I. Okay, let's go for one second,

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Speaker 1: go back to the twisted Desire that Melissa joh Hart movie.

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Speaker 1: Than that case, do you think that it is ultimately

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Speaker 1: about love, obsession, manipulation, or something else entirely? What do

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Speaker 1: you think that's about?

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Speaker 3: I think twisted desire. If it's about anything, it's about

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Speaker 3: adolescent mental health. I mean, this girl, for her to

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Speaker 3: be able to do this with no conscience, I'm not

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Speaker 3: you know, I'm not a psychiatrist. And you can use

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Speaker 3: the word sociopath or some sort of diagnosis, but you

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Speaker 3: know she was a sick kid.

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Speaker 1: This is a great answer.

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Speaker 3: And triggered by a father that you know pushed her

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Speaker 3: too far. But you know, to kill both their parents

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Speaker 3: or have them both killed, and manipulate this guy into

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Speaker 3: doing it with no conscience, That to me that's what

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Speaker 3: the movie is about, is a really crazy sick teenager.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that is an excellent answer.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean they're look, we see we see sick

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Speaker 3: teenagers do crazy tragic stuff way too often. I mean

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Speaker 3: it's still you know, it still happens.

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Speaker 1: Yep. Well, David, this has been such a pleasure. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much. I love getting to see her face,

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Speaker 1: even if if it's not quite in person. And this

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Speaker 1: is so great. We've never you know, I've never seen

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Speaker 1: I had never seen these movies before, and you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not a surprise what your work is so great

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Speaker 1: in it, and it's just nice to now kind of

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Speaker 1: have that backdrop for you. Now I feel like I

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Speaker 1: know you even better.

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Speaker 3: All Right, thank you so much. Everybody,