Speaker 1: Hi everyone, it's James again. I just wanted to remind
Speaker 1: you that this is part two of a two part
Speaker 1: and if you haven't listened to yesterday's podcast, today's might
Speaker 1: not make a lot of sense, so I would suggest
Speaker 1: starting there. Obviously, you have your own life, do what
Speaker 1: you want, but you're going to understand today's a lot
Speaker 1: more if you start with yesterday's. Today was speaking to
Speaker 1: Menieba with the ACLU about the legal response to some
Speaker 1: of the bizarre things City of Ashville has been doing.
Speaker 1: If you hear reference to Pip in this episode, that's
Speaker 1: because Pip is another of the activists. They weren't able
Speaker 1: to make our call, but we're going to be speaking
Speaker 1: to them as well in our ongoing coverage of this.
Speaker 1: So I hope you enjoy today's episode know that we'll
Speaker 1: keep you updated as this moves forward. All right, So
Speaker 1: our first guest today is Niba and Minie. But would
Speaker 1: you like to introduce yourself explain your relationship to what
Speaker 1: we're talking about today. Yeah? Sure, So. My name is
Speaker 1: Beniba Hollister. I'm a stop attorney with the ACLU nrth
Speaker 1: Charle I know, and I represent some of these wonderful
Speaker 1: folks that you'll be talking to act for me, and UM,
Speaker 1: it's unfortunate that we met this way, UM, but you know,
Speaker 1: I'm happy to be working with them. So basically I
Speaker 1: can go into it or do you want to ask
Speaker 1: me questions about it? Or I think it'd be great
Speaker 1: if you could start off by sort of walking us
Speaker 1: through how mutual Aid seems to have met with this
Speaker 1: bizarre prosecution. Yeah, of course. UM. So we got connected to, um,
Speaker 1: you know, our now clients that this group of individuals
Speaker 1: whom you know have been doing important advocacy and mutual
Speaker 1: aid work on the house of on house folks, um
Speaker 1: in ethel and um, we were connected by this other
Speaker 1: organization called Center for Constitutional Rights and kind of fill
Speaker 1: in quickly about, um, how this group of people were
Speaker 1: not only banned from perks, but these bands were based
Speaker 1: on this absurd criminal charge called felony littering, um, which
Speaker 1: you know it sounds as crazy as it is. UM.
Speaker 1: So so yeah, you know I think, UM, my colleagues
Speaker 1: and I at the ECLU we were eager to talk
Speaker 1: to these folks and learn more about what happened and
Speaker 1: and see what we can do and um uh and
Speaker 1: you know, start talking about some of the legal issues
Speaker 1: that um, that arise from when a city tries to
Speaker 1: ban a large group of people from from one of
Speaker 1: the few places that they have to convene and to
Speaker 1: protest um and demonstrate, which you know, one of the
Speaker 1: first things I learned in law school is like how
Speaker 1: or like one of the first things I think I
Speaker 1: learned as someone living in the US, like you, you
Speaker 1: always hear kids say, oh, I have free speech, Like
Speaker 1: you know, free speech, So it's such a central part
Speaker 1: of being in this or like growing up in this
Speaker 1: country and being a citizen or a member of this country.
Speaker 1: Is just the way that is thrown around, sometimes inaccurately,
Speaker 1: but people generally know that that speech should be protected
Speaker 1: and cannot be restricted except in very narrow ways by
Speaker 1: the government, not by like you know, your mom, you
Speaker 1: don't have um free speech in front of your mom.
Speaker 1: Like that's not that I learned that quick. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: when I took my being an American test, I took
Speaker 1: like I became assist in a couple of months ago.
Speaker 1: And there's like only like fifty questions they can ask you,
Speaker 1: and I think two of them are like what it's
Speaker 1: free speech? Like like, yeah, yeah, can you claim free
Speaker 1: speech when you get banned from Twitter dot com? Like yeah,
Speaker 1: it's something, Yeah, that's yeah. And I think, UM, I
Speaker 1: think you know, it's UM it's absurd to criminalize protest,
Speaker 1: of course, UM, but it's it's also like equally as
Speaker 1: troubling to take away this this important public space from
Speaker 1: people that UM, you know, especially in a city like Ashville,
Speaker 1: like you've been there, it's one of the few public
Speaker 1: spaces that people can convene and UM get together and
Speaker 1: enjoy each other's company. UM. You know that that being
Speaker 1: separate from also one of the few places that you
Speaker 1: can protest and and UM engage and discussion about how
Speaker 1: to fix problems. So it's really troubling UM that the
Speaker 1: city of Bashville has had taken that route. And when
Speaker 1: the ACIL you got involved, we thought it would be
Speaker 1: best to list out some of these legal issues. UM.
Speaker 1: You know, I mentioned the First Amendment UM and free speech,
Speaker 1: but there are also a lot of procedural due process
Speaker 1: problems that UM or issues that come up when you
Speaker 1: then folks from a park. UM. One of you know,
Speaker 1: one of the things that the city doesn't do is
Speaker 1: provide proper notice so a few of our clients never
Speaker 1: received notice that they were banned from the park, and
Speaker 1: you know, found out that they were banned either through
Speaker 1: the discovery process in their criminal cases or by doing
Speaker 1: like very intense investigation of their own which you know,
Speaker 1: that is not a that's just not okay, Like a
Speaker 1: city needs to you need to at this is like
Speaker 1: a very basic thing, right, notice and hearing. Those are
Speaker 1: the tenets of procedural due process. And the city fails there.
Speaker 1: The city then sails again at providing hearing and providing
Speaker 1: opportunity to appeal these bands, Like there is no pre
Speaker 1: deprivation hearing. First of all, like bands, once our clients
Speaker 1: received them, they're banned. They're banned from the parks and
Speaker 1: cannot go and don't have didn't have any opportunity to
Speaker 1: defend um why they shouldn't be banned or be heard
Speaker 1: about why they shouldn't be banned before that band happened,
Speaker 1: which is you know, it's it's not okay. I think
Speaker 1: a pre deprivation hearing is really important when you're taking
Speaker 1: away an interest, like like the First Amendment interests that
Speaker 1: I laid out, and and then the hearing that was
Speaker 1: provided was problematic in a lot of ways. For one,
Speaker 1: these were very short cursory hearings um that lasted from
Speaker 1: I want to say, like five to thirty minutes, but
Speaker 1: I'll let Sarah and Tip confirm. And they they had
Speaker 1: people from actional police department who are you know, arguably
Speaker 1: also involved in the criminal cases that that several of
Speaker 1: our clients are still sattling through. They were not allowed
Speaker 1: to ask questions, and you know, several of our clients
Speaker 1: do not have the resources to have proper legal representations,
Speaker 1: so it's sometimes their clients were there alone and had
Speaker 1: to fend for themselves and navigate that tricky area of
Speaker 1: not saying something that could hurt you in your criminal case.
Speaker 1: And you know, the hearing was just a mess in
Speaker 1: all of the ways. How does the city like legally
Speaker 1: justify banning someone from parks? I guess they're like a
Speaker 1: way which they can do that. So they have this
Speaker 1: policy called the Restricted Access to City Parks Expulse policy,
Speaker 1: and it is I think we should call it the
Speaker 1: park band policy. It basically allows the city to to
Speaker 1: band folks from parks based on certain violations of I
Speaker 1: think the categories are city park rules, city parks and
Speaker 1: Recreation Department program rules, city ordinances, state laws, and federal laws.
Speaker 1: So what's interesting is there is no there's nowhere in
Speaker 1: the policy that says when a person has committed or
Speaker 1: that defines what a violation of any of these rules
Speaker 1: are like. Is that a conviction? Is that a formal
Speaker 1: like citation there? The policy does not provide that. So
Speaker 1: this is important, I think, especially here where our clients,
Speaker 1: none of them, or actually I shouldn't say none of them.
Speaker 1: Three three of our clients have pled to lesser misdemeanor charges,
Speaker 1: but everyone else has an open case and they have
Speaker 1: not been formally convicted of anything. And so it's it's
Speaker 1: strange that, you know, you can ban someone based off
Speaker 1: of the stele any charge that hasn't even been fully litigated. Yeah,
Speaker 1: have they banned there like a record of the city
Speaker 1: banning people from parks? Or have they just like dug
Speaker 1: this one up from the bowels of legislation to ban
Speaker 1: these people. Oh that's a really interesting question, and I'd
Speaker 1: love to know the answer myself. We did submit a
Speaker 1: public records request to try to figure out if I
Speaker 1: have UM, but I imagine the city is not going
Speaker 1: to want to tell us, and I think Sarah, you
Speaker 1: can speak to this later. But I don't think they
Speaker 1: have they I think they've rejected PRRs that you all
Speaker 1: have done and have not provided that um elusive restricted
Speaker 1: access list which they have of like folks that they've
Speaker 1: spanned from the Perks and and maybe that list is
Speaker 1: just you know, our clients, which yeah, I mean, maybe
Speaker 1: they have. I don't know what's worse, like if they
Speaker 1: have a Parks black list and they're just not notifying
Speaker 1: people until like they send a swat team after them,
Speaker 1: or if it's if it's only people who are helping
Speaker 1: unhouse people and they just don't want to admit that.
Speaker 1: Both those are pretty dark the topic of weird legal things,
Speaker 1: What on earth is felony littering? I'd love to know.
Speaker 1: I'd love to know what felony littering is, because, um,
Speaker 1: I'll tell you this. When I told my partner, like,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, did you know there's something called
Speaker 1: felony littering? And he's like, I hope that's when corporations
Speaker 1: get punished for, you know, dumping toxic waste into the sea.
Speaker 1: But no, it's apparently when community members come together for
Speaker 1: a demonstration and the city is mad about what's left behind, which, um,
Speaker 1: you know, that's uh. I think it's really telling that
Speaker 1: the city has chosen to to prosecute folks on this
Speaker 1: like felony littering charge, which you know hasn't in the
Speaker 1: past ten years, there's only been one felony littering case
Speaker 1: out of Buncombe County where Ashville is. Okay, So I
Speaker 1: think that's really telling, and I think it's it's really
Speaker 1: troubling that's the city of Ashville seems to be really
Speaker 1: taking out a position in silencing speech. It does not
Speaker 1: like yeah, there's yeah, go ahead, No, they just seem
Speaker 1: to be taking like the most bizarre and ran around
Speaker 1: the first Amendment that they can. Yeah, it might be
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of like the Occupy era
Speaker 1: stuff where like all of these cities suddenly realized that
Speaker 1: like wait, hold on, these people can actually use a
Speaker 1: park for political activity, and then immediately like suddenly that
Speaker 1: all these like organises started appearing where like everyone has
Speaker 1: to like clear out of the park by ten pms,
Speaker 1: leaking clean it or something that eventually were just like
Speaker 1: was used to force people out. And I don't know,
Speaker 1: it seems like There's something interesting too about like it
Speaker 1: seems like it's it's almost when whenever like a city
Speaker 1: government tries you something, it seems like they always like
Speaker 1: immediately reach for sanitation ordinances. Like yeah, I would saying
Speaker 1: like that was that was like the big occupy thing,
Speaker 1: like they're doing this here too. It is it's I
Speaker 1: don't know. I think all around the country we're seeing
Speaker 1: the government fish out these weird ordinances and make new
Speaker 1: laws to to criminalize poverty and um and to criminalize
Speaker 1: unhoused people existing. And I think that trend, unfortunately carries
Speaker 1: even in places like Ashville, UM that are seeing especially
Speaker 1: after COVID, you know, there's been a rising and house
Speaker 1: population everywhere, and so it's it's really upsetting, but it
Speaker 1: is the truth that these these ordinances and laws that
Speaker 1: are being fished out are being fished out to targets
Speaker 1: folks and um and new laws that lawmakers are creating.
Speaker 1: Now I was thinking about this, I remembering there there's
Speaker 1: a whole sort of anthropological literature about like how colonial
Speaker 1: states US used like sanitation ordinances as a way to
Speaker 1: sort of destroy like indigenous public spaces and the places
Speaker 1: they colonize. And I guess like, yeah, I don't know,
Speaker 1: Like there's there's a lot of sort of throughput I
Speaker 1: guess between like the sort of old like colonial government's
Speaker 1: regimes and the way that people still use sanitation is
Speaker 1: like the default way to sort of cleanse people out
Speaker 1: of public spaces. I think it's interesting how, like um
Speaker 1: an analogy one can make maybe visit there are people
Speaker 1: with rights and people without rights, even when in theory
Speaker 1: we all have rights, and like this attempt to sort
Speaker 1: of use sanitation to be like all of these people's
Speaker 1: rights don't matter what. They don't have those rights at all. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not not linked to the way the metropolital colonies.
Speaker 1: I think also just you know, going back to this
Speaker 1: position that the City of Nashville is taking, UM, what's
Speaker 1: really troubling is like the different angles that they're coming
Speaker 1: at this issue with. Like if you look at you know,
Speaker 1: if you look at some of the press releases and
Speaker 1: wild posts on the city's website about the house population,
Speaker 1: you might get a sense that they're trying to find
Speaker 1: solutions to address what they seem to acknowledge as a
Speaker 1: big problem. But then you know, on the flip side,
Speaker 1: you see these actions that directly contradict that sentiment, and
Speaker 1: you know these part funds. That's that's one of the
Speaker 1: ways that UM, the city of that kind of indirectly
Speaker 1: is like no, please, like, let us do our thing.
Speaker 1: We don't want to hear anything bad about what we're doing,
Speaker 1: Like we're trying our hardest. You know, that's rich on
Speaker 1: its own, but you know, there's so there's a felony
Speaker 1: littering charges, there's the park that and then you know,
Speaker 1: alongside all of this, like a few weeks ago, we
Speaker 1: followed the petition in Bunkham Truntium Superior Court petitioning for
Speaker 1: the release of police body camera footage of the arrest
Speaker 1: of two journalists, for the release of the footage that
Speaker 1: UM that shows the arrests of these journalists covering covering
Speaker 1: the eviction of encampments of unhoused folks in Aston Park
Speaker 1: on Christmas night in twenty twenty one. So around the
Speaker 1: same time that several of our clients, UM, you know
Speaker 1: are being hit with these felony charges and then shortly
Speaker 1: after with park bands and UM the rest of journalists
Speaker 1: in a democracy is very or should be very rare
Speaker 1: and should be troubling, and these journalists, like just to
Speaker 1: give you some context. Um, we're not shy about their
Speaker 1: critique of the city and how it's handling done housed
Speaker 1: community and um, that critique is protected by the First Amendment.
Speaker 1: But the city of Asheville, I think is just you know,
Speaker 1: doing its own thing when it's allowing arrests of journalists
Speaker 1: and and um, the release of that body camera footage
Speaker 1: we think is important to just show what happened because
Speaker 1: that's that's that's kind of strange, like just in the
Speaker 1: same way that felony littering is strange. Yeah, it does
Speaker 1: seem like there is there is kind of a yeah
Speaker 1: bypasses and commitment to not wanting journalists to meddle with
Speaker 1: you harassing the house people. It seems to be like
Speaker 1: very much a Democrat thing is one of the Republican thing.
Speaker 1: What did were those journalists charged anything or were they
Speaker 1: dis arrested? They were also charged with um, I want
Speaker 1: to say, second degree trust pass um, and they've been
Speaker 1: pretty vocal about UM their arrests and and UM, and
Speaker 1: I think what's been happening. Like their names are uh,
Speaker 1: Veronica Quite and Matilda Blists. Um. I'm not sure Sarah
Speaker 1: if you want to add more to that, but UM,
Speaker 1: I think that's that's like another thread that's important to
Speaker 1: this story is like all of the different ways that
Speaker 1: Ashville is operating to silence folks and and to continue
Speaker 1: doing what they're doing, which you know, in a like
Speaker 1: if you look at UM just their own narrative where
Speaker 1: they talk about, oh, yes, we've you know, evicted these
Speaker 1: folks as a success story, and you know, like they'll
Speaker 1: they'll maybe list like all of the hotels, like free
Speaker 1: hotel nights that UM these folks got for one or
Speaker 1: two nights. But that's obviously not a sustainable solution to
Speaker 1: um to you know, the plight of that community. Yeah, certainly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think sometimes things get done because things look good
Speaker 1: on a press release around them because it gives anyone
Speaker 1: like longto Maxis to housing. So I wonder, what's the situation.
Speaker 1: Several of your clients are now facing felony charges? Are serious? Right?
Speaker 1: If people maybe on in the US or don't realize,
Speaker 1: maybe you could explain, like a felony follows around for
Speaker 1: the rest of your life, right, Yeah, And and just
Speaker 1: to be clear, where the AFLU is not defending them
Speaker 1: on the criminal charges. UM, I think all of our
Speaker 1: clients have separate representation for their criminal charges. We've taken
Speaker 1: on the charge of um addressing these parts bands and
Speaker 1: how we think they're constitutional. So I'm sure, like I can,
Speaker 1: I can speak a little to this, but yeah, I think, um,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe getting getting one of the criminal defense
Speaker 1: attorneys to talk if they can about the criminal case
Speaker 1: might be more helpful for sure. Yeah. Maybe can you
Speaker 1: explain this in general terms what a felony would mean
Speaker 1: for someone living in North Carolina, in terms of just
Speaker 1: how would affect their life going forward. Yeah, so there's
Speaker 1: there's a lot I think, you know, um right, I'm
Speaker 1: not a criminal lawyer, but let me just think of
Speaker 1: a few things. Uh, you know, having the felony on
Speaker 1: your criminal record just on its own, nobody nobody wants
Speaker 1: a criminal record in a country and state that is
Speaker 1: still looking and you know, allowing background checks for certain
Speaker 1: jobs and having to explain that in any context like
Speaker 1: I will just you know, you know, let me just
Speaker 1: talk from my own experience where I've whenever I am
Speaker 1: getting admitted to a bar, I've moved a couple of
Speaker 1: times in the past few years and had to deal
Speaker 1: with the unfortunate process of being admitted into that state's bar.
Speaker 1: There's several intrusive questions and many of those involved like
Speaker 1: what kind of what your background is, and that means
Speaker 1: what your criminal background is, Like we have to do um,
Speaker 1: Like I have gone through the moral character fitness tests
Speaker 1: for three stage now and UM it's never fun. It's
Speaker 1: you know, as someone who is privileged and does not
Speaker 1: have a criminal history background, it's not fun for me
Speaker 1: because I like the number of questions they ask you.
Speaker 1: It's like you really, like you know, have to dig
Speaker 1: back into the past, like your whole life, Like they
Speaker 1: ask all of the addresses that you've lived at in
Speaker 1: the past fifteen years, and if you get it wrong,
Speaker 1: you're lying. So you're okay, I'm going out unattention. But
Speaker 1: the point is, like any any sort of certification or
Speaker 1: job or um new opportunity that is that is something
Speaker 1: a criminal record is something that's looked at and considered
Speaker 1: and oftentimes in in a negative way and can result
Speaker 1: in people not getting jobs. Um, it's I think Sarah
Speaker 1: and like other Saharan Tips maybe can explain more about
Speaker 1: like what the consequences would be like if you've had
Speaker 1: conversation with your attorneys. But I also have some background
Speaker 1: in immigrants race work, and I know that if any
Speaker 1: any kind of criminal charges slash convictions that you're facing
Speaker 1: can be used by UM, can be used by ICE,
Speaker 1: can be used by USBIS to deny you immigration privileges
Speaker 1: and and UM and to deport you, to detain you
Speaker 1: before they deport you, and UM. So you know, beyond that,
Speaker 1: like having to have this hang over your head where
Speaker 1: the process is not short, it's not easy, is mentally
Speaker 1: taxing and UM, it's honestly degrading to go through our
Speaker 1: criminal legal system, and it's decorating for everyone UM and
Speaker 1: and I mean that's that's all I can say of
Speaker 1: like someone UM who does like general civil rights work.
Speaker 1: But if you talk to someone who's doing criminal defense
Speaker 1: work and in this all the time, I'm sure they're
Speaker 1: they're you know, can paint a better picture of how
Speaker 1: dark that that processes and how dark it can be
Speaker 1: to have that on UM a record. I think another
Speaker 1: thing that this is Okay, I'm not a lawyer. I'm
Speaker 1: also not like your lawyer. Lead to legal advice, etcetera, etcetera, UM,
Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure the way it work in North
Speaker 1: Carolina is that if you if you have a felony conviction,
Speaker 1: you can't vote until you serve out the time Jesus
Speaker 1: So yeah, like in country. Yeah, yeah, so that's that's
Speaker 1: another thing. And I'm fairly muted in North Carolina. I
Speaker 1: moved here in March, so almost a year, but not
Speaker 1: quite so. But I do know that the hoops that
Speaker 1: you have to jump through just to vote are a
Speaker 1: lot more than other states that I've lived in. And um,
Speaker 1: you know, of course that is um that is also
Speaker 1: another thing done on purpose to silence certain voices. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's dark and certainly like you'll lose your second Amendment right,
Speaker 1: so it be jobs you can't do, that will be
Speaker 1: things that you have access to, like yeah, your rights
Speaker 1: will go away potential forever, which is bad when you're
Speaker 1: just trying to help some people who need to melt.
Speaker 1: It's pretty unconstable. Yeah, I think that's the other, like
Speaker 1: really wild thing about all of this is like a
Speaker 1: lot the folks that are you know, being banned on,
Speaker 1: being targeted on this way are providing really important services
Speaker 1: in in a way that the city haven't been able
Speaker 1: to and hasn't and it's filling in this this really
Speaker 1: important role of like making sure that folks stay alive
Speaker 1: and have support and are fed and clothes, And it's
Speaker 1: unfortunate to have that taken a way like being banned
Speaker 1: from a park means being banned from one of the
Speaker 1: few spaces that our clients had to do this work
Speaker 1: and where they were able to distribute food and other
Speaker 1: aid to folks who don't have a home. And it's
Speaker 1: just it's wild that that kind of action is being
Speaker 1: taken when when we know that this is a crisis
Speaker 1: that the city is just not addressing. Yeah, they're like
Speaker 1: taking action against people pointing to the crisis rather than
Speaker 1: the crisis itself, which is yeah, very sad. So what
Speaker 1: what stage is you are? I know you have to
Speaker 1: go in a second here, what stage is your lucky
Speaker 1: said seou with challenging the park ban. How has that?
Speaker 1: How's that gone for you? So so far? We've spent
Speaker 1: a demand letter to the city. The city have responded
Speaker 1: to that letter with UM right now kind of wishywashie
Speaker 1: commitments of like reviewing the policy and UM. While while
Speaker 1: I think that's a great first step, I do think
Speaker 1: the city needs to commit to doing more and um
Speaker 1: to commit to retracting the for all of our clients
Speaker 1: and potentially others who have been affected by this policy.
Speaker 1: They also need to change the policy, like reviewing the policy.
Speaker 1: That's a great first step that you know, I want
Speaker 1: to see, like what are the things that they are
Speaker 1: building in to make sure that folks are getting proper
Speaker 1: notice that this policy isn't being abused and used by
Speaker 1: actual police department others in an unfair way, and that
Speaker 1: there's like you know, basic standards of like when the
Speaker 1: policy can be instituted, like is there a conviction involved
Speaker 1: and what are the convictions? Like doesn't make sense to
Speaker 1: then someone from a park for I don't know, like
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of like something fellingy literate. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just so bizarre. It's clown stuff. It is bizarre.
Speaker 1: And I think, like, you know, historically park bands from
Speaker 1: what I know is like they've been used against like
Speaker 1: people who have committed like sexual offenses and um, and
Speaker 1: so it's kind of it's kind of out of lust
Speaker 1: field to and and I'll just say this, that's a
Speaker 1: city like indo response. They cited to one of the
Speaker 1: cases that are two cases unfolved sexual offenders who are
Speaker 1: bound from parks, which you know, yeah, peaceful demonstrators who
Speaker 1: provided aids to folks who are unhoused. So you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's not really there. The comparison is not there,
Speaker 1: And I think I hope the city can be honest
Speaker 1: and UM if they are not willing to put in
Speaker 1: network and to take some of UM do the actions
Speaker 1: that I've laid out. I do think that we will
Speaker 1: continue to challenge these park bands and UM you know,
Speaker 1: we'll continue to prepare to file suit if that's necessary.
Speaker 1: Great And how can people follow along with that or
Speaker 1: if they want to sort of donate or support it,
Speaker 1: is there a place they can do that? UM? You know,
Speaker 1: our website UM is a great space to our website.
Speaker 1: I think our socials like Twitter, UM and Instagram, like
Speaker 1: our comms team is amazing and they update on our
Speaker 1: work frequently and often and UM and we try to
Speaker 1: we try to provide updates there, but also UM kind
Speaker 1: of engage with our work and what it means broadly
Speaker 1: for UM books across North Carolina and across the US. Yeah, right,
Speaker 1: and that's just a CLU North Carolina. Those would be
Speaker 1: the socials I should know that. That's fine. Um So
Speaker 1: it's AHLU of North Carolina dot org and if you
Speaker 1: go to our website you'll find our socials. But it's
Speaker 1: probably a very much thought. Yeah, wonderful. Well, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for giving us some of your time. Thanks
Speaker 1: so much for having me. Yeah, that's great, Thank you.
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