WEBVTT - Asheville's Crackdown on Mutual Aid Part 2 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:07.880 Hi everyone, it's James again. I just wanted to remind 0:00:07.920 --> 0:00:09.920 you that this is part two of a two part 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:12.520 and if you haven't listened to yesterday's podcast, today's might 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:14.200 not make a lot of sense, so I would suggest 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:16.400 starting there. Obviously, you have your own life, do what 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:19.080 you want, but you're going to understand today's a lot 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:21.279 more if you start with yesterday's. Today was speaking to 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:24.239 Menieba with the ACLU about the legal response to some 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:27.800 of the bizarre things City of Ashville has been doing. 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:31.200 If you hear reference to Pip in this episode, that's 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:33.320 because Pip is another of the activists. They weren't able 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:35.040 to make our call, but we're going to be speaking 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:37.120 to them as well in our ongoing coverage of this. 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:39.720 So I hope you enjoy today's episode know that we'll 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:42.559 keep you updated as this moves forward. All right, So 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:47.040 our first guest today is Niba and Minie. But would 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:49.640 you like to introduce yourself explain your relationship to what 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:53.519 we're talking about today. Yeah? Sure, So. My name is 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:57.480 Beniba Hollister. I'm a stop attorney with the ACLU nrth 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:02.040 Charle I know, and I represent some of these wonderful 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:08.399 folks that you'll be talking to act for me, and UM, 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:13.440 it's unfortunate that we met this way, UM, but you know, 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:16.880 I'm happy to be working with them. So basically I 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:20.440 can go into it or do you want to ask 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:23.760 me questions about it? Or I think it'd be great 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:25.880 if you could start off by sort of walking us 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:28.880 through how mutual Aid seems to have met with this 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:37.080 bizarre prosecution. Yeah, of course. UM. So we got connected to, um, 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:42.560 you know, our now clients that this group of individuals 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:48.120 whom you know have been doing important advocacy and mutual 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:51.320 aid work on the house of on house folks, um 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:55.600 in ethel and um, we were connected by this other 0:01:55.760 --> 0:01:59.880 organization called Center for Constitutional Rights and kind of fill 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:07.560 in quickly about, um, how this group of people were 0:02:08.320 --> 0:02:12.160 not only banned from perks, but these bands were based 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:19.079 on this absurd criminal charge called felony littering, um, which 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:28.840 you know it sounds as crazy as it is. UM. 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:33.960 So so yeah, you know I think, UM, my colleagues 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:39.960 and I at the ECLU we were eager to talk 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:43.720 to these folks and learn more about what happened and 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:48.680 and see what we can do and um uh and 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:51.320 you know, start talking about some of the legal issues 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:56.960 that um, that arise from when a city tries to 0:02:57.000 --> 0:03:01.720 ban a large group of people from from one of 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:05.920 the few places that they have to convene and to 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:10.920 protest um and demonstrate, which you know, one of the 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:14.040 first things I learned in law school is like how 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:16.200 or like one of the first things I think I 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:22.520 learned as someone living in the US, like you, you 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:26.560 always hear kids say, oh, I have free speech, Like 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:32.200 you know, free speech, So it's such a central part 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:37.280 of being in this or like growing up in this 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:41.120 country and being a citizen or a member of this country. 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:45.640 Is just the way that is thrown around, sometimes inaccurately, 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:51.320 but people generally know that that speech should be protected 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:58.200 and cannot be restricted except in very narrow ways by 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:01.360 the government, not by like you know, your mom, you 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:04.800 don't have um free speech in front of your mom. 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:10.920 Like that's not that I learned that quick. Um. Yeah, 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:14.040 when I took my being an American test, I took 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:15.839 like I became assist in a couple of months ago. 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:19.520 And there's like only like fifty questions they can ask you, 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:21.280 and I think two of them are like what it's 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:25.000 free speech? Like like, yeah, yeah, can you claim free 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:29.760 speech when you get banned from Twitter dot com? Like yeah, 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:35.240 it's something, Yeah, that's yeah. And I think, UM, I 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:41.960 think you know, it's UM it's absurd to criminalize protest, 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:48.080 of course, UM, but it's it's also like equally as 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:55.360 troubling to take away this this important public space from 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:59.760 people that UM, you know, especially in a city like Ashville, 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:02.040 like you've been there, it's one of the few public 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:06.559 spaces that people can convene and UM get together and 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:12.320 enjoy each other's company. UM. You know that that being 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:15.440 separate from also one of the few places that you 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:20.960 can protest and and UM engage and discussion about how 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:26.560 to fix problems. So it's really troubling UM that the 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:30.680 city of Bashville has had taken that route. And when 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:34.320 the ACIL you got involved, we thought it would be 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:38.440 best to list out some of these legal issues. UM. 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:42.960 You know, I mentioned the First Amendment UM and free speech, 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:49.039 but there are also a lot of procedural due process 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:54.560 problems that UM or issues that come up when you 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:59.400 then folks from a park. UM. One of you know, 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:01.839 one of the things that the city doesn't do is 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:06.080 provide proper notice so a few of our clients never 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:10.120 received notice that they were banned from the park, and 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:13.920 you know, found out that they were banned either through 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:19.840 the discovery process in their criminal cases or by doing 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:24.320 like very intense investigation of their own which you know, 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:29.760 that is not a that's just not okay, Like a 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:34.400 city needs to you need to at this is like 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:39.280 a very basic thing, right, notice and hearing. Those are 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:44.760 the tenets of procedural due process. And the city fails there. 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:50.880 The city then sails again at providing hearing and providing 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:57.200 opportunity to appeal these bands, Like there is no pre 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:01.600 deprivation hearing. First of all, like bands, once our clients 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:04.359 received them, they're banned. They're banned from the parks and 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:10.160 cannot go and don't have didn't have any opportunity to 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:14.239 defend um why they shouldn't be banned or be heard 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:17.560 about why they shouldn't be banned before that band happened, 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:22.119 which is you know, it's it's not okay. I think 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:25.280 a pre deprivation hearing is really important when you're taking 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:32.880 away an interest, like like the First Amendment interests that 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:37.840 I laid out, and and then the hearing that was 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:43.320 provided was problematic in a lot of ways. For one, 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:49.440 these were very short cursory hearings um that lasted from 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:51.640 I want to say, like five to thirty minutes, but 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:57.200 I'll let Sarah and Tip confirm. And they they had 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:04.000 people from actional police department who are you know, arguably 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:09.120 also involved in the criminal cases that that several of 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:15.400 our clients are still sattling through. They were not allowed 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:19.000 to ask questions, and you know, several of our clients 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:24.360 do not have the resources to have proper legal representations, 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:29.600 so it's sometimes their clients were there alone and had 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:34.400 to fend for themselves and navigate that tricky area of 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:39.400 not saying something that could hurt you in your criminal case. 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:45.160 And you know, the hearing was just a mess in 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:49.760 all of the ways. How does the city like legally 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:54.120 justify banning someone from parks? I guess they're like a 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:56.439 way which they can do that. So they have this 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:01.360 policy called the Restricted Access to City Parks Expulse policy, 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:04.800 and it is I think we should call it the 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:10.840 park band policy. It basically allows the city to to 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:18.560 band folks from parks based on certain violations of I 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:22.440 think the categories are city park rules, city parks and 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:30.359 Recreation Department program rules, city ordinances, state laws, and federal laws. 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:37.679 So what's interesting is there is no there's nowhere in 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:43.800 the policy that says when a person has committed or 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:48.600 that defines what a violation of any of these rules 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:51.240 are like. Is that a conviction? Is that a formal 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:57.160 like citation there? The policy does not provide that. So 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:03.040 this is important, I think, especially here where our clients, 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:06.640 none of them, or actually I shouldn't say none of them. 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:11.319 Three three of our clients have pled to lesser misdemeanor charges, 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:17.320 but everyone else has an open case and they have 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:24.880 not been formally convicted of anything. And so it's it's 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:29.320 strange that, you know, you can ban someone based off 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:37.720 of the stele any charge that hasn't even been fully litigated. Yeah, 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:40.800 have they banned there like a record of the city 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:43.080 banning people from parks? Or have they just like dug 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:46.800 this one up from the bowels of legislation to ban 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:53.400 these people. Oh that's a really interesting question, and I'd 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:56.400 love to know the answer myself. We did submit a 0:10:56.679 --> 0:11:00.079 public records request to try to figure out if I 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:04.360 have UM, but I imagine the city is not going 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:07.640 to want to tell us, and I think Sarah, you 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:11.760 can speak to this later. But I don't think they 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:16.200 have they I think they've rejected PRRs that you all 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:21.120 have done and have not provided that um elusive restricted 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:25.080 access list which they have of like folks that they've 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:28.440 spanned from the Perks and and maybe that list is 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:34.280 just you know, our clients, which yeah, I mean, maybe 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:37.320 they have. I don't know what's worse, like if they 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:39.760 have a Parks black list and they're just not notifying 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:43.760 people until like they send a swat team after them, 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:46.520 or if it's if it's only people who are helping 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:48.320 unhouse people and they just don't want to admit that. 0:11:48.559 --> 0:12:01.600 Both those are pretty dark the topic of weird legal things, 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:06.280 What on earth is felony littering? I'd love to know. 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:10.880 I'd love to know what felony littering is, because, um, 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:14.520 I'll tell you this. When I told my partner, like, 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:16.800 I was like, oh, did you know there's something called 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:20.400 felony littering? And he's like, I hope that's when corporations 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:25.520 get punished for, you know, dumping toxic waste into the sea. 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:31.880 But no, it's apparently when community members come together for 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:41.120 a demonstration and the city is mad about what's left behind, which, um, 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:45.480 you know, that's uh. I think it's really telling that 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:53.920 the city has chosen to to prosecute folks on this 0:12:54.080 --> 0:13:00.760 like felony littering charge, which you know hasn't in the 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:04.600 past ten years, there's only been one felony littering case 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:10.320 out of Buncombe County where Ashville is. Okay, So I 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:15.199 think that's really telling, and I think it's it's really 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:18.360 troubling that's the city of Ashville seems to be really 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:22.720 taking out a position in silencing speech. It does not 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:27.520 like yeah, there's yeah, go ahead, No, they just seem 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:29.800 to be taking like the most bizarre and ran around 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:33.000 the first Amendment that they can. Yeah, it might be 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:35.160 a lot of a lot of like the Occupy era 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.280 stuff where like all of these cities suddenly realized that 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:41.240 like wait, hold on, these people can actually use a 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:45.280 park for political activity, and then immediately like suddenly that 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:48.520 all these like organises started appearing where like everyone has 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:50.560 to like clear out of the park by ten pms, 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:53.880 leaking clean it or something that eventually were just like 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:56.160 was used to force people out. And I don't know, 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:59.240 it seems like There's something interesting too about like it 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:01.960 seems like it's it's almost when whenever like a city 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:04.719 government tries you something, it seems like they always like 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:09.720 immediately reach for sanitation ordinances. Like yeah, I would saying 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:11.400 like that was that was like the big occupy thing, 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:13.400 like they're doing this here too. It is it's I 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:16.960 don't know. I think all around the country we're seeing 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:22.800 the government fish out these weird ordinances and make new 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:30.120 laws to to criminalize poverty and um and to criminalize 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:36.560 unhoused people existing. And I think that trend, unfortunately carries 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:43.400 even in places like Ashville, UM that are seeing especially 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:47.720 after COVID, you know, there's been a rising and house 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:53.880 population everywhere, and so it's it's really upsetting, but it 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:59.600 is the truth that these these ordinances and laws that 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:03.040 are being fished out are being fished out to targets 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:08.720 folks and um and new laws that lawmakers are creating. 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:11.560 Now I was thinking about this, I remembering there there's 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:15.320 a whole sort of anthropological literature about like how colonial 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:19.360 states US used like sanitation ordinances as a way to 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:22.800 sort of destroy like indigenous public spaces and the places 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:25.680 they colonize. And I guess like, yeah, I don't know, 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:29.640 Like there's there's a lot of sort of throughput I 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:35.680 guess between like the sort of old like colonial government's 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:38.960 regimes and the way that people still use sanitation is 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:41.160 like the default way to sort of cleanse people out 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:45.360 of public spaces. I think it's interesting how, like um 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:49.200 an analogy one can make maybe visit there are people 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:51.800 with rights and people without rights, even when in theory 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:54.960 we all have rights, and like this attempt to sort 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:57.560 of use sanitation to be like all of these people's 0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:01.520 rights don't matter what. They don't have those rights at all. Yeah, 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:05.800 it's not not linked to the way the metropolital colonies. 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:14.200 I think also just you know, going back to this 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:20.160 position that the City of Nashville is taking, UM, what's 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:25.200 really troubling is like the different angles that they're coming 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:30.560 at this issue with. Like if you look at you know, 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:33.000 if you look at some of the press releases and 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:38.000 wild posts on the city's website about the house population, 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:41.000 you might get a sense that they're trying to find 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:44.600 solutions to address what they seem to acknowledge as a 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:49.080 big problem. But then you know, on the flip side, 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:53.920 you see these actions that directly contradict that sentiment, and 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:56.360 you know these part funds. That's that's one of the 0:16:56.400 --> 0:17:01.600 ways that UM, the city of that kind of indirectly 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:04.360 is like no, please, like, let us do our thing. 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:07.720 We don't want to hear anything bad about what we're doing, 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:13.639 Like we're trying our hardest. You know, that's rich on 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:17.640 its own, but you know, there's so there's a felony 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:21.480 littering charges, there's the park that and then you know, 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:24.919 alongside all of this, like a few weeks ago, we 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:30.919 followed the petition in Bunkham Truntium Superior Court petitioning for 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:34.960 the release of police body camera footage of the arrest 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:39.600 of two journalists, for the release of the footage that 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:46.960 UM that shows the arrests of these journalists covering covering 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:52.600 the eviction of encampments of unhoused folks in Aston Park 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:57.600 on Christmas night in twenty twenty one. So around the 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:01.959 same time that several of our clients, UM, you know 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:05.200 are being hit with these felony charges and then shortly 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:11.000 after with park bands and UM the rest of journalists 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:14.480 in a democracy is very or should be very rare 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:18.879 and should be troubling, and these journalists, like just to 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:21.920 give you some context. Um, we're not shy about their 0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:25.720 critique of the city and how it's handling done housed 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:32.119 community and um, that critique is protected by the First Amendment. 0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:35.679 But the city of Asheville, I think is just you know, 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:39.840 doing its own thing when it's allowing arrests of journalists 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:44.680 and and um, the release of that body camera footage 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:51.280 we think is important to just show what happened because 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:55.439 that's that's that's kind of strange, like just in the 0:18:55.520 --> 0:19:00.640 same way that felony littering is strange. Yeah, it does 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:02.360 seem like there is there is kind of a yeah 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:06.000 bypasses and commitment to not wanting journalists to meddle with 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:08.800 you harassing the house people. It seems to be like 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:11.840 very much a Democrat thing is one of the Republican thing. 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:14.800 What did were those journalists charged anything or were they 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:22.760 dis arrested? They were also charged with um, I want 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:28.120 to say, second degree trust pass um, and they've been 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:34.240 pretty vocal about UM their arrests and and UM, and 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:38.760 I think what's been happening. Like their names are uh, 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:44.879 Veronica Quite and Matilda Blists. Um. I'm not sure Sarah 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:47.520 if you want to add more to that, but UM, 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:53.520 I think that's that's like another thread that's important to 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:56.000 this story is like all of the different ways that 0:19:56.080 --> 0:20:01.360 Ashville is operating to silence folks and and to continue 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:06.120 doing what they're doing, which you know, in a like 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:11.359 if you look at UM just their own narrative where 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:14.600 they talk about, oh, yes, we've you know, evicted these 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:20.400 folks as a success story, and you know, like they'll 0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:23.280 they'll maybe list like all of the hotels, like free 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:26.840 hotel nights that UM these folks got for one or 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:32.080 two nights. But that's obviously not a sustainable solution to 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:41.520 um to you know, the plight of that community. Yeah, certainly. Yeah. 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:44.440 I think sometimes things get done because things look good 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:46.479 on a press release around them because it gives anyone 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:51.600 like longto Maxis to housing. So I wonder, what's the situation. 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:55.560 Several of your clients are now facing felony charges? Are serious? Right? 0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:57.600 If people maybe on in the US or don't realize, 0:20:57.600 --> 0:21:00.439 maybe you could explain, like a felony follows around for 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:04.840 the rest of your life, right, Yeah, And and just 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:11.360 to be clear, where the AFLU is not defending them 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:14.480 on the criminal charges. UM, I think all of our 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:19.800 clients have separate representation for their criminal charges. We've taken 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:24.040 on the charge of um addressing these parts bands and 0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:30.000 how we think they're constitutional. So I'm sure, like I can, 0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:34.520 I can speak a little to this, but yeah, I think, um, 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:39.480 you know, maybe getting getting one of the criminal defense 0:21:39.520 --> 0:21:42.960 attorneys to talk if they can about the criminal case 0:21:43.080 --> 0:21:46.159 might be more helpful for sure. Yeah. Maybe can you 0:21:46.200 --> 0:21:49.760 explain this in general terms what a felony would mean 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:52.840 for someone living in North Carolina, in terms of just 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:58.720 how would affect their life going forward. Yeah, so there's 0:21:59.240 --> 0:22:06.040 there's a lot I think, you know, um right, I'm 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:08.280 not a criminal lawyer, but let me just think of 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:14.040 a few things. Uh, you know, having the felony on 0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:21.200 your criminal record just on its own, nobody nobody wants 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:25.280 a criminal record in a country and state that is 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:32.240 still looking and you know, allowing background checks for certain 0:22:32.359 --> 0:22:36.199 jobs and having to explain that in any context like 0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:38.199 I will just you know, you know, let me just 0:22:38.240 --> 0:22:43.160 talk from my own experience where I've whenever I am 0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:45.560 getting admitted to a bar, I've moved a couple of 0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:48.720 times in the past few years and had to deal 0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:55.160 with the unfortunate process of being admitted into that state's bar. 0:22:56.240 --> 0:23:01.400 There's several intrusive questions and many of those involved like 0:23:01.520 --> 0:23:06.840 what kind of what your background is, and that means 0:23:07.000 --> 0:23:10.959 what your criminal background is, Like we have to do um, 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:15.159 Like I have gone through the moral character fitness tests 0:23:15.240 --> 0:23:20.600 for three stage now and UM it's never fun. It's 0:23:20.840 --> 0:23:23.240 you know, as someone who is privileged and does not 0:23:23.440 --> 0:23:25.879 have a criminal history background, it's not fun for me 0:23:26.040 --> 0:23:30.439 because I like the number of questions they ask you. 0:23:30.520 --> 0:23:35.120 It's like you really, like you know, have to dig 0:23:35.200 --> 0:23:41.159 back into the past, like your whole life, Like they 0:23:41.200 --> 0:23:43.639 ask all of the addresses that you've lived at in 0:23:44.160 --> 0:23:46.320 the past fifteen years, and if you get it wrong, 0:23:46.480 --> 0:23:50.080 you're lying. So you're okay, I'm going out unattention. But 0:23:50.119 --> 0:23:54.359 the point is, like any any sort of certification or 0:23:54.640 --> 0:23:59.840 job or um new opportunity that is that is something 0:24:00.040 --> 0:24:04.400 a criminal record is something that's looked at and considered 0:24:04.480 --> 0:24:10.200 and oftentimes in in a negative way and can result 0:24:10.280 --> 0:24:16.199 in people not getting jobs. Um, it's I think Sarah 0:24:16.240 --> 0:24:21.119 and like other Saharan Tips maybe can explain more about 0:24:21.160 --> 0:24:23.640 like what the consequences would be like if you've had 0:24:23.720 --> 0:24:28.040 conversation with your attorneys. But I also have some background 0:24:28.080 --> 0:24:32.160 in immigrants race work, and I know that if any 0:24:32.280 --> 0:24:37.600 any kind of criminal charges slash convictions that you're facing 0:24:37.680 --> 0:24:41.760 can be used by UM, can be used by ICE, 0:24:41.880 --> 0:24:45.879 can be used by USBIS to deny you immigration privileges 0:24:46.000 --> 0:24:49.879 and and UM and to deport you, to detain you 0:24:50.280 --> 0:24:57.240 before they deport you, and UM. So you know, beyond that, 0:24:57.720 --> 0:25:01.919 like having to have this hang over your head where 0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:08.880 the process is not short, it's not easy, is mentally 0:25:08.960 --> 0:25:14.800 taxing and UM, it's honestly degrading to go through our 0:25:15.080 --> 0:25:22.800 criminal legal system, and it's decorating for everyone UM and 0:25:22.800 --> 0:25:25.240 and I mean that's that's all I can say of 0:25:25.320 --> 0:25:29.840 like someone UM who does like general civil rights work. 0:25:29.920 --> 0:25:33.520 But if you talk to someone who's doing criminal defense 0:25:33.600 --> 0:25:37.520 work and in this all the time, I'm sure they're 0:25:37.800 --> 0:25:41.520 they're you know, can paint a better picture of how 0:25:41.720 --> 0:25:45.240 dark that that processes and how dark it can be 0:25:45.359 --> 0:25:58.800 to have that on UM a record. I think another 0:25:58.840 --> 0:26:02.960 thing that this is Okay, I'm not a lawyer. I'm 0:26:02.960 --> 0:26:07.560 also not like your lawyer. Lead to legal advice, etcetera, etcetera, UM, 0:26:07.680 --> 0:26:10.080 but I'm pretty sure the way it work in North 0:26:10.119 --> 0:26:12.760 Carolina is that if you if you have a felony conviction, 0:26:12.840 --> 0:26:16.359 you can't vote until you serve out the time Jesus 0:26:16.359 --> 0:26:22.160 So yeah, like in country. Yeah, yeah, so that's that's 0:26:22.200 --> 0:26:25.800 another thing. And I'm fairly muted in North Carolina. I 0:26:25.920 --> 0:26:28.840 moved here in March, so almost a year, but not 0:26:28.920 --> 0:26:33.320 quite so. But I do know that the hoops that 0:26:33.400 --> 0:26:35.879 you have to jump through just to vote are a 0:26:35.920 --> 0:26:40.439 lot more than other states that I've lived in. And um, 0:26:40.520 --> 0:26:44.320 you know, of course that is um that is also 0:26:44.359 --> 0:26:48.680 another thing done on purpose to silence certain voices. Yeah, 0:26:48.760 --> 0:26:52.680 that's dark and certainly like you'll lose your second Amendment right, 0:26:52.720 --> 0:26:55.239 so it be jobs you can't do, that will be 0:26:55.400 --> 0:26:58.520 things that you have access to, like yeah, your rights 0:26:58.560 --> 0:27:03.080 will go away potential forever, which is bad when you're 0:27:03.080 --> 0:27:04.720 just trying to help some people who need to melt. 0:27:05.160 --> 0:27:09.080 It's pretty unconstable. Yeah, I think that's the other, like 0:27:09.240 --> 0:27:13.199 really wild thing about all of this is like a 0:27:13.240 --> 0:27:16.440 lot the folks that are you know, being banned on, 0:27:16.600 --> 0:27:22.439 being targeted on this way are providing really important services 0:27:22.600 --> 0:27:25.560 in in a way that the city haven't been able 0:27:25.640 --> 0:27:31.920 to and hasn't and it's filling in this this really 0:27:31.960 --> 0:27:35.920 important role of like making sure that folks stay alive 0:27:36.040 --> 0:27:42.600 and have support and are fed and clothes, And it's 0:27:42.680 --> 0:27:48.320 unfortunate to have that taken a way like being banned 0:27:48.400 --> 0:27:51.320 from a park means being banned from one of the 0:27:51.400 --> 0:27:55.320 few spaces that our clients had to do this work 0:27:55.520 --> 0:27:59.600 and where they were able to distribute food and other 0:28:00.119 --> 0:28:04.400 aid to folks who don't have a home. And it's 0:28:04.440 --> 0:28:08.680 just it's wild that that kind of action is being 0:28:08.720 --> 0:28:13.520 taken when when we know that this is a crisis 0:28:13.680 --> 0:28:18.240 that the city is just not addressing. Yeah, they're like 0:28:18.320 --> 0:28:20.880 taking action against people pointing to the crisis rather than 0:28:21.280 --> 0:28:26.680 the crisis itself, which is yeah, very sad. So what 0:28:26.680 --> 0:28:28.119 what stage is you are? I know you have to 0:28:28.160 --> 0:28:30.760 go in a second here, what stage is your lucky 0:28:30.800 --> 0:28:33.399 said seou with challenging the park ban. How has that? 0:28:33.480 --> 0:28:36.840 How's that gone for you? So so far? We've spent 0:28:37.160 --> 0:28:40.360 a demand letter to the city. The city have responded 0:28:40.440 --> 0:28:45.760 to that letter with UM right now kind of wishywashie 0:28:45.800 --> 0:28:50.920 commitments of like reviewing the policy and UM. While while 0:28:50.960 --> 0:28:53.520 I think that's a great first step, I do think 0:28:53.560 --> 0:28:57.640 the city needs to commit to doing more and um 0:28:57.840 --> 0:29:02.720 to commit to retracting the for all of our clients 0:29:02.760 --> 0:29:07.200 and potentially others who have been affected by this policy. 0:29:07.840 --> 0:29:12.320 They also need to change the policy, like reviewing the policy. 0:29:12.720 --> 0:29:16.520 That's a great first step that you know, I want 0:29:16.520 --> 0:29:19.160 to see, like what are the things that they are 0:29:19.200 --> 0:29:22.040 building in to make sure that folks are getting proper 0:29:22.160 --> 0:29:26.200 notice that this policy isn't being abused and used by 0:29:27.840 --> 0:29:31.840 actual police department others in an unfair way, and that 0:29:31.960 --> 0:29:36.840 there's like you know, basic standards of like when the 0:29:36.920 --> 0:29:40.520