1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, it's James again. I just wanted to remind 2 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: you that this is part two of a two part 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: and if you haven't listened to yesterday's podcast, today's might 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: not make a lot of sense, so I would suggest 5 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: starting there. Obviously, you have your own life, do what 6 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,080 Speaker 1: you want, but you're going to understand today's a lot 7 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 1: more if you start with yesterday's. Today was speaking to 8 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: Menieba with the ACLU about the legal response to some 9 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: of the bizarre things City of Ashville has been doing. 10 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: If you hear reference to Pip in this episode, that's 11 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: because Pip is another of the activists. They weren't able 12 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: to make our call, but we're going to be speaking 13 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: to them as well in our ongoing coverage of this. 14 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: So I hope you enjoy today's episode know that we'll 15 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: keep you updated as this moves forward. All right, So 16 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: our first guest today is Niba and Minie. But would 17 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: you like to introduce yourself explain your relationship to what 18 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 1: we're talking about today. Yeah? Sure, So. My name is 19 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: Beniba Hollister. I'm a stop attorney with the ACLU nrth 20 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: Charle I know, and I represent some of these wonderful 21 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 1: folks that you'll be talking to act for me, and UM, 22 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: it's unfortunate that we met this way, UM, but you know, 23 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: I'm happy to be working with them. So basically I 24 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: can go into it or do you want to ask 25 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: me questions about it? Or I think it'd be great 26 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: if you could start off by sort of walking us 27 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: through how mutual Aid seems to have met with this 28 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: bizarre prosecution. Yeah, of course. UM. So we got connected to, um, 29 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: you know, our now clients that this group of individuals 30 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: whom you know have been doing important advocacy and mutual 31 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: aid work on the house of on house folks, um 32 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: in ethel and um, we were connected by this other 33 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: organization called Center for Constitutional Rights and kind of fill 34 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: in quickly about, um, how this group of people were 35 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: not only banned from perks, but these bands were based 36 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:19,079 Speaker 1: on this absurd criminal charge called felony littering, um, which 37 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: you know it sounds as crazy as it is. UM. 38 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: So so yeah, you know I think, UM, my colleagues 39 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: and I at the ECLU we were eager to talk 40 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: to these folks and learn more about what happened and 41 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: and see what we can do and um uh and 42 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: you know, start talking about some of the legal issues 43 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: that um, that arise from when a city tries to 44 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: ban a large group of people from from one of 45 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 1: the few places that they have to convene and to 46 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 1: protest um and demonstrate, which you know, one of the 47 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: first things I learned in law school is like how 48 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: or like one of the first things I think I 49 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: learned as someone living in the US, like you, you 50 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: always hear kids say, oh, I have free speech, Like 51 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: you know, free speech, So it's such a central part 52 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: of being in this or like growing up in this 53 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: country and being a citizen or a member of this country. 54 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: Is just the way that is thrown around, sometimes inaccurately, 55 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: but people generally know that that speech should be protected 56 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: and cannot be restricted except in very narrow ways by 57 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: the government, not by like you know, your mom, you 58 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: don't have um free speech in front of your mom. 59 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: Like that's not that I learned that quick. Um. Yeah, 60 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: when I took my being an American test, I took 61 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:15,839 Speaker 1: like I became assist in a couple of months ago. 62 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: And there's like only like fifty questions they can ask you, 63 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:21,280 Speaker 1: and I think two of them are like what it's 64 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: free speech? Like like, yeah, yeah, can you claim free 65 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: speech when you get banned from Twitter dot com? Like yeah, 66 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: it's something, Yeah, that's yeah. And I think, UM, I 67 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: think you know, it's UM it's absurd to criminalize protest, 68 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: of course, UM, but it's it's also like equally as 69 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: troubling to take away this this important public space from 70 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: people that UM, you know, especially in a city like Ashville, 71 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 1: like you've been there, it's one of the few public 72 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:06,559 Speaker 1: spaces that people can convene and UM get together and 73 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: enjoy each other's company. UM. You know that that being 74 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: separate from also one of the few places that you 75 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: can protest and and UM engage and discussion about how 76 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: to fix problems. So it's really troubling UM that the 77 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: city of Bashville has had taken that route. And when 78 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: the ACIL you got involved, we thought it would be 79 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: best to list out some of these legal issues. UM. 80 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: You know, I mentioned the First Amendment UM and free speech, 81 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:49,039 Speaker 1: but there are also a lot of procedural due process 82 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: problems that UM or issues that come up when you 83 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: then folks from a park. UM. One of you know, 84 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: one of the things that the city doesn't do is 85 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: provide proper notice so a few of our clients never 86 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: received notice that they were banned from the park, and 87 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: you know, found out that they were banned either through 88 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 1: the discovery process in their criminal cases or by doing 89 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: like very intense investigation of their own which you know, 90 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: that is not a that's just not okay, Like a 91 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: city needs to you need to at this is like 92 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:39,280 Speaker 1: a very basic thing, right, notice and hearing. Those are 93 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: the tenets of procedural due process. And the city fails there. 94 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: The city then sails again at providing hearing and providing 95 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: opportunity to appeal these bands, Like there is no pre 96 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: deprivation hearing. First of all, like bands, once our clients 97 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,359 Speaker 1: received them, they're banned. They're banned from the parks and 98 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: cannot go and don't have didn't have any opportunity to 99 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:14,239 Speaker 1: defend um why they shouldn't be banned or be heard 100 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: about why they shouldn't be banned before that band happened, 101 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:22,119 Speaker 1: which is you know, it's it's not okay. I think 102 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: a pre deprivation hearing is really important when you're taking 103 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: away an interest, like like the First Amendment interests that 104 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: I laid out, and and then the hearing that was 105 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: provided was problematic in a lot of ways. For one, 106 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: these were very short cursory hearings um that lasted from 107 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: I want to say, like five to thirty minutes, but 108 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: I'll let Sarah and Tip confirm. And they they had 109 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: people from actional police department who are you know, arguably 110 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: also involved in the criminal cases that that several of 111 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: our clients are still sattling through. They were not allowed 112 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: to ask questions, and you know, several of our clients 113 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: do not have the resources to have proper legal representations, 114 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: so it's sometimes their clients were there alone and had 115 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: to fend for themselves and navigate that tricky area of 116 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: not saying something that could hurt you in your criminal case. 117 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: And you know, the hearing was just a mess in 118 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: all of the ways. How does the city like legally 119 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: justify banning someone from parks? I guess they're like a 120 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,439 Speaker 1: way which they can do that. So they have this 121 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: policy called the Restricted Access to City Parks Expulse policy, 122 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: and it is I think we should call it the 123 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 1: park band policy. It basically allows the city to to 124 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: band folks from parks based on certain violations of I 125 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 1: think the categories are city park rules, city parks and 126 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:30,359 Speaker 1: Recreation Department program rules, city ordinances, state laws, and federal laws. 127 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 1: So what's interesting is there is no there's nowhere in 128 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: the policy that says when a person has committed or 129 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: that defines what a violation of any of these rules 130 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: are like. Is that a conviction? Is that a formal 131 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: like citation there? The policy does not provide that. So 132 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: this is important, I think, especially here where our clients, 133 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: none of them, or actually I shouldn't say none of them. 134 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:11,319 Speaker 1: Three three of our clients have pled to lesser misdemeanor charges, 135 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: but everyone else has an open case and they have 136 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: not been formally convicted of anything. And so it's it's 137 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: strange that, you know, you can ban someone based off 138 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: of the stele any charge that hasn't even been fully litigated. Yeah, 139 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: have they banned there like a record of the city 140 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: banning people from parks? Or have they just like dug 141 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: this one up from the bowels of legislation to ban 142 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: these people. Oh that's a really interesting question, and I'd 143 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: love to know the answer myself. We did submit a 144 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,079 Speaker 1: public records request to try to figure out if I 145 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: have UM, but I imagine the city is not going 146 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: to want to tell us, and I think Sarah, you 147 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: can speak to this later. But I don't think they 148 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 1: have they I think they've rejected PRRs that you all 149 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: have done and have not provided that um elusive restricted 150 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: access list which they have of like folks that they've 151 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: spanned from the Perks and and maybe that list is 152 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: just you know, our clients, which yeah, I mean, maybe 153 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 1: they have. I don't know what's worse, like if they 154 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: have a Parks black list and they're just not notifying 155 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: people until like they send a swat team after them, 156 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: or if it's if it's only people who are helping 157 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: unhouse people and they just don't want to admit that. 158 00:11:48,559 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: Both those are pretty dark the topic of weird legal things, 159 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: What on earth is felony littering? I'd love to know. 160 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: I'd love to know what felony littering is, because, um, 161 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: I'll tell you this. When I told my partner, like, 162 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, did you know there's something called 163 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: felony littering? And he's like, I hope that's when corporations 164 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: get punished for, you know, dumping toxic waste into the sea. 165 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: But no, it's apparently when community members come together for 166 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: a demonstration and the city is mad about what's left behind, which, um, 167 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: you know, that's uh. I think it's really telling that 168 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: the city has chosen to to prosecute folks on this 169 00:12:54,080 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: like felony littering charge, which you know hasn't in the 170 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: past ten years, there's only been one felony littering case 171 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: out of Buncombe County where Ashville is. Okay, So I 172 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:15,199 Speaker 1: think that's really telling, and I think it's it's really 173 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: troubling that's the city of Ashville seems to be really 174 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: taking out a position in silencing speech. It does not 175 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: like yeah, there's yeah, go ahead, No, they just seem 176 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: to be taking like the most bizarre and ran around 177 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: the first Amendment that they can. Yeah, it might be 178 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of like the Occupy era 179 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: stuff where like all of these cities suddenly realized that 180 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: like wait, hold on, these people can actually use a 181 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: park for political activity, and then immediately like suddenly that 182 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: all these like organises started appearing where like everyone has 183 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: to like clear out of the park by ten pms, 184 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: leaking clean it or something that eventually were just like 185 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: was used to force people out. And I don't know, 186 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: it seems like There's something interesting too about like it 187 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: seems like it's it's almost when whenever like a city 188 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:04,719 Speaker 1: government tries you something, it seems like they always like 189 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: immediately reach for sanitation ordinances. Like yeah, I would saying 190 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: like that was that was like the big occupy thing, 191 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: like they're doing this here too. It is it's I 192 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: don't know. I think all around the country we're seeing 193 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: the government fish out these weird ordinances and make new 194 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: laws to to criminalize poverty and um and to criminalize 195 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: unhoused people existing. And I think that trend, unfortunately carries 196 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: even in places like Ashville, UM that are seeing especially 197 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: after COVID, you know, there's been a rising and house 198 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: population everywhere, and so it's it's really upsetting, but it 199 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: is the truth that these these ordinances and laws that 200 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: are being fished out are being fished out to targets 201 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: folks and um and new laws that lawmakers are creating. 202 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: Now I was thinking about this, I remembering there there's 203 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: a whole sort of anthropological literature about like how colonial 204 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: states US used like sanitation ordinances as a way to 205 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: sort of destroy like indigenous public spaces and the places 206 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: they colonize. And I guess like, yeah, I don't know, 207 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: Like there's there's a lot of sort of throughput I 208 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: guess between like the sort of old like colonial government's 209 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: regimes and the way that people still use sanitation is 210 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: like the default way to sort of cleanse people out 211 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: of public spaces. I think it's interesting how, like um 212 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: an analogy one can make maybe visit there are people 213 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: with rights and people without rights, even when in theory 214 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: we all have rights, and like this attempt to sort 215 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: of use sanitation to be like all of these people's 216 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: rights don't matter what. They don't have those rights at all. Yeah, 217 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: it's not not linked to the way the metropolital colonies. 218 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: I think also just you know, going back to this 219 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: position that the City of Nashville is taking, UM, what's 220 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: really troubling is like the different angles that they're coming 221 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: at this issue with. Like if you look at you know, 222 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: if you look at some of the press releases and 223 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: wild posts on the city's website about the house population, 224 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: you might get a sense that they're trying to find 225 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: solutions to address what they seem to acknowledge as a 226 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: big problem. But then you know, on the flip side, 227 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: you see these actions that directly contradict that sentiment, and 228 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: you know these part funds. That's that's one of the 229 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: ways that UM, the city of that kind of indirectly 230 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,360 Speaker 1: is like no, please, like, let us do our thing. 231 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: We don't want to hear anything bad about what we're doing, 232 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 1: Like we're trying our hardest. You know, that's rich on 233 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 1: its own, but you know, there's so there's a felony 234 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: littering charges, there's the park that and then you know, 235 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 1: alongside all of this, like a few weeks ago, we 236 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:30,919 Speaker 1: followed the petition in Bunkham Truntium Superior Court petitioning for 237 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: the release of police body camera footage of the arrest 238 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: of two journalists, for the release of the footage that 239 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: UM that shows the arrests of these journalists covering covering 240 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: the eviction of encampments of unhoused folks in Aston Park 241 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: on Christmas night in twenty twenty one. So around the 242 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:01,959 Speaker 1: same time that several of our clients, UM, you know 243 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: are being hit with these felony charges and then shortly 244 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: after with park bands and UM the rest of journalists 245 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: in a democracy is very or should be very rare 246 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 1: and should be troubling, and these journalists, like just to 247 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 1: give you some context. Um, we're not shy about their 248 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: critique of the city and how it's handling done housed 249 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 1: community and um, that critique is protected by the First Amendment. 250 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,679 Speaker 1: But the city of Asheville, I think is just you know, 251 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: doing its own thing when it's allowing arrests of journalists 252 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: and and um, the release of that body camera footage 253 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: we think is important to just show what happened because 254 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 1: that's that's that's kind of strange, like just in the 255 00:18:55,520 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 1: same way that felony littering is strange. Yeah, it does 256 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:02,360 Speaker 1: seem like there is there is kind of a yeah 257 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: bypasses and commitment to not wanting journalists to meddle with 258 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: you harassing the house people. It seems to be like 259 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: very much a Democrat thing is one of the Republican thing. 260 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: What did were those journalists charged anything or were they 261 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: dis arrested? They were also charged with um, I want 262 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 1: to say, second degree trust pass um, and they've been 263 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: pretty vocal about UM their arrests and and UM, and 264 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: I think what's been happening. Like their names are uh, 265 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: Veronica Quite and Matilda Blists. Um. I'm not sure Sarah 266 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: if you want to add more to that, but UM, 267 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: I think that's that's like another thread that's important to 268 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: this story is like all of the different ways that 269 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 1: Ashville is operating to silence folks and and to continue 270 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 1: doing what they're doing, which you know, in a like 271 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 1: if you look at UM just their own narrative where 272 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: they talk about, oh, yes, we've you know, evicted these 273 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 1: folks as a success story, and you know, like they'll 274 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 1: they'll maybe list like all of the hotels, like free 275 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: hotel nights that UM these folks got for one or 276 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: two nights. But that's obviously not a sustainable solution to 277 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: um to you know, the plight of that community. Yeah, certainly. Yeah. 278 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 1: I think sometimes things get done because things look good 279 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,479 Speaker 1: on a press release around them because it gives anyone 280 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: like longto Maxis to housing. So I wonder, what's the situation. 281 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: Several of your clients are now facing felony charges? Are serious? Right? 282 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: If people maybe on in the US or don't realize, 283 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 1: maybe you could explain, like a felony follows around for 284 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: the rest of your life, right, Yeah, And and just 285 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:11,360 Speaker 1: to be clear, where the AFLU is not defending them 286 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 1: on the criminal charges. UM, I think all of our 287 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: clients have separate representation for their criminal charges. We've taken 288 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: on the charge of um addressing these parts bands and 289 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: how we think they're constitutional. So I'm sure, like I can, 290 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: I can speak a little to this, but yeah, I think, um, 291 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: you know, maybe getting getting one of the criminal defense 292 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: attorneys to talk if they can about the criminal case 293 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 1: might be more helpful for sure. Yeah. Maybe can you 294 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: explain this in general terms what a felony would mean 295 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: for someone living in North Carolina, in terms of just 296 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: how would affect their life going forward. Yeah, so there's 297 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: there's a lot I think, you know, um right, I'm 298 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: not a criminal lawyer, but let me just think of 299 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: a few things. Uh, you know, having the felony on 300 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 1: your criminal record just on its own, nobody nobody wants 301 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: a criminal record in a country and state that is 302 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: still looking and you know, allowing background checks for certain 303 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 1: jobs and having to explain that in any context like 304 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,199 Speaker 1: I will just you know, you know, let me just 305 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 1: talk from my own experience where I've whenever I am 306 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: getting admitted to a bar, I've moved a couple of 307 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: times in the past few years and had to deal 308 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 1: with the unfortunate process of being admitted into that state's bar. 309 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 1: There's several intrusive questions and many of those involved like 310 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: what kind of what your background is, and that means 311 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,959 Speaker 1: what your criminal background is, Like we have to do um, 312 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: Like I have gone through the moral character fitness tests 313 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: for three stage now and UM it's never fun. It's 314 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: you know, as someone who is privileged and does not 315 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 1: have a criminal history background, it's not fun for me 316 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 1: because I like the number of questions they ask you. 317 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:35,120 Speaker 1: It's like you really, like you know, have to dig 318 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: back into the past, like your whole life, Like they 319 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: ask all of the addresses that you've lived at in 320 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: the past fifteen years, and if you get it wrong, 321 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: you're lying. So you're okay, I'm going out unattention. But 322 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 1: the point is, like any any sort of certification or 323 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: job or um new opportunity that is that is something 324 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 1: a criminal record is something that's looked at and considered 325 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: and oftentimes in in a negative way and can result 326 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:16,199 Speaker 1: in people not getting jobs. Um, it's I think Sarah 327 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 1: and like other Saharan Tips maybe can explain more about 328 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 1: like what the consequences would be like if you've had 329 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: conversation with your attorneys. But I also have some background 330 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 1: in immigrants race work, and I know that if any 331 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: any kind of criminal charges slash convictions that you're facing 332 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: can be used by UM, can be used by ICE, 333 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: can be used by USBIS to deny you immigration privileges 334 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: and and UM and to deport you, to detain you 335 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: before they deport you, and UM. So you know, beyond that, 336 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 1: like having to have this hang over your head where 337 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:08,880 Speaker 1: the process is not short, it's not easy, is mentally 338 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: taxing and UM, it's honestly degrading to go through our 339 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: criminal legal system, and it's decorating for everyone UM and 340 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: and I mean that's that's all I can say of 341 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: like someone UM who does like general civil rights work. 342 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: But if you talk to someone who's doing criminal defense 343 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: work and in this all the time, I'm sure they're 344 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: they're you know, can paint a better picture of how 345 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: dark that that processes and how dark it can be 346 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: to have that on UM a record. I think another 347 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: thing that this is Okay, I'm not a lawyer. I'm 348 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: also not like your lawyer. Lead to legal advice, etcetera, etcetera, UM, 349 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure the way it work in North 350 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: Carolina is that if you if you have a felony conviction, 351 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 1: you can't vote until you serve out the time Jesus 352 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 1: So yeah, like in country. Yeah, yeah, so that's that's 353 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: another thing. And I'm fairly muted in North Carolina. I 354 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: moved here in March, so almost a year, but not 355 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: quite so. But I do know that the hoops that 356 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 1: you have to jump through just to vote are a 357 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:40,439 Speaker 1: lot more than other states that I've lived in. And um, 358 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 1: you know, of course that is um that is also 359 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 1: another thing done on purpose to silence certain voices. Yeah, 360 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 1: that's dark and certainly like you'll lose your second Amendment right, 361 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,239 Speaker 1: so it be jobs you can't do, that will be 362 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: things that you have access to, like yeah, your rights 363 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: will go away potential forever, which is bad when you're 364 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: just trying to help some people who need to melt. 365 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: It's pretty unconstable. Yeah, I think that's the other, like 366 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,199 Speaker 1: really wild thing about all of this is like a 367 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 1: lot the folks that are you know, being banned on, 368 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:22,439 Speaker 1: being targeted on this way are providing really important services 369 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: in in a way that the city haven't been able 370 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 1: to and hasn't and it's filling in this this really 371 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: important role of like making sure that folks stay alive 372 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: and have support and are fed and clothes, And it's 373 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: unfortunate to have that taken a way like being banned 374 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: from a park means being banned from one of the 375 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: few spaces that our clients had to do this work 376 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: and where they were able to distribute food and other 377 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 1: aid to folks who don't have a home. And it's 378 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 1: just it's wild that that kind of action is being 379 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: taken when when we know that this is a crisis 380 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: that the city is just not addressing. Yeah, they're like 381 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,880 Speaker 1: taking action against people pointing to the crisis rather than 382 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 1: the crisis itself, which is yeah, very sad. So what 383 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 1: what stage is you are? I know you have to 384 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: go in a second here, what stage is your lucky 385 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 1: said seou with challenging the park ban. How has that? 386 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: How's that gone for you? So so far? We've spent 387 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: a demand letter to the city. The city have responded 388 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: to that letter with UM right now kind of wishywashie 389 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 1: commitments of like reviewing the policy and UM. While while 390 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: I think that's a great first step, I do think 391 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: the city needs to commit to doing more and um 392 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: to commit to retracting the for all of our clients 393 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 1: and potentially others who have been affected by this policy. 394 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: They also need to change the policy, like reviewing the policy. 395 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: That's a great first step that you know, I want 396 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: to see, like what are the things that they are 397 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: building in to make sure that folks are getting proper 398 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: notice that this policy isn't being abused and used by 399 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: actual police department others in an unfair way, and that 400 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: there's like you know, basic standards of like when the 401 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: policy can be instituted, like is there a conviction involved 402 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: and what are the convictions? Like doesn't make sense to 403 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: then someone from a park for I don't know, like 404 00:29:52,040 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of like something fellingy literate. Yeah, 405 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: it's just so bizarre. It's clown stuff. It is bizarre. 406 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: And I think, like, you know, historically park bands from 407 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: what I know is like they've been used against like 408 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 1: people who have committed like sexual offenses and um, and 409 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 1: so it's kind of it's kind of out of lust 410 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: field to and and I'll just say this, that's a 411 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: city like indo response. They cited to one of the 412 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: cases that are two cases unfolved sexual offenders who are 413 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: bound from parks, which you know, yeah, peaceful demonstrators who 414 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 1: provided aids to folks who are unhoused. So you know, 415 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 1: it's it's not really there. The comparison is not there, 416 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: And I think I hope the city can be honest 417 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: and UM if they are not willing to put in 418 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: network and to take some of UM do the actions 419 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: that I've laid out. I do think that we will 420 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: continue to challenge these park bands and UM you know, 421 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 1: we'll continue to prepare to file suit if that's necessary. 422 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: Great And how can people follow along with that or 423 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: if they want to sort of donate or support it, 424 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 1: is there a place they can do that? UM? You know, 425 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: our website UM is a great space to our website. 426 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 1: I think our socials like Twitter, UM and Instagram, like 427 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: our comms team is amazing and they update on our 428 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: work frequently and often and UM and we try to 429 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: we try to provide updates there, but also UM kind 430 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: of engage with our work and what it means broadly 431 00:31:53,600 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 1: for UM books across North Carolina and across the US. Yeah, right, 432 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: and that's just a CLU North Carolina. Those would be 433 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: the socials I should know that. That's fine. Um So 434 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: it's AHLU of North Carolina dot org and if you 435 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: go to our website you'll find our socials. But it's 436 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: probably a very much thought. Yeah, wonderful. Well, thank you 437 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: so much for giving us some of your time. Thanks 438 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: so much for having me. Yeah, that's great, Thank you. 439 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 440 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,959 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 441 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 442 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 443 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated 444 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.