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Speaker 1: Prosecutors say in Massachusetts, woman pressured a friend to take

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Speaker 1: his own life because she wanted sympathy. The involuntary manslaughter

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Speaker 1: trial of Michelle Carter, the twenty year old Plainville woman

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Speaker 1: accused of causing her boyfriend Conrad Roy's death by pushing

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Speaker 1: him to kill himself back in July, she used carterrad

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Speaker 1: as a pawn. Prosecutors say it was all in act, though,

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Speaker 1: from a team now aged twenty, who wanted attention from

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Speaker 1: her boyfriend's death. This is crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: Prosecutors in her trial claim that she told the eighteen

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Speaker 1: year old to kill himself numerous times over text messages

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Speaker 1: and phone calls. Text between Carter and Roy show she

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Speaker 1: pushed him to drive out to a remote spot and

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Speaker 1: poisoned himself with carbon monoxide in his car. As his

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Speaker 1: truck was filling with carbon monoxide, he was scared. He

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Speaker 1: got out. It was the defendant on the other end

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Speaker 1: of the phone who ordered him back in. Did she

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Speaker 1: use her boyfriend as a pawn in a sick game,

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Speaker 1: persuading him? Just a young boy at teen, a sensitive

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Speaker 1: boy that had bouts of depression that had tried to

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Speaker 1: kill himself before did she use him, convince him to

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Speaker 1: commit suicide in order to get attention as a quote

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Speaker 1: grieving girlfriend, even carrying out a dry run two days

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Speaker 1: before Conrad Roy the Third committed suicide. I Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: this is crime stories and joining me a renowned attorney,

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Speaker 1: Robin Thicker out of the Maryland jurisdiction, who practices all

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Speaker 1: across the country. Thicker, have you, first of all welcome?

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Speaker 1: Let the hazing begin with Thicker. Vicker, have you actually

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Speaker 1: read the thousands of texting messages she sent him on

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Speaker 1: top of phone calls, uh, just emails, the works, trying

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Speaker 1: to get him to kill himself. I certainly have read them.

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Speaker 1: But here I think the case is simple. The question

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Speaker 1: is do you believe or not that actions speak louder

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Speaker 1: than words. Look at his actions. He drove the truck

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Speaker 1: there where he could do this. He installed the generator

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Speaker 1: that was going to produce the gas. He put up

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Speaker 1: the windows. He attempted suicide many times before, he researched

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Speaker 1: hundreds of times the internet how to do this. He

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Speaker 1: turned on the engine. He's responsible. His actions caused the death,

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Speaker 1: not her words. Really knowing that he was so incredibly

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Speaker 1: prone to depression. Let's take a listen to some of

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Speaker 1: the things that she actually said to him. Okay, let's

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Speaker 1: hear her words that Mr. Ficker is so anxious to discount,

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Speaker 1: because there are plenty of them, such as, you need

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Speaker 1: to stop thinking about this and just do it because

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Speaker 1: overthinking he always kills overthinking. You can't think about it.

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Speaker 1: You just have to do it. You said you were

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Speaker 1: gonna do it, like I don't get why. I don't

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Speaker 1: get why you aren't so and another so I guess

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Speaker 1: you're not gonna do it. Then all that for nothing.

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Speaker 1: I'm just confused, Like you were so ready and determined.

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Speaker 1: Then the guy Conrad Roy a teen boy who was

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Speaker 1: in love with this girl. He wants to get out

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Speaker 1: of it. He wants to not kill himself. She says,

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Speaker 1: you kept pushing it off. You say you'll do it,

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Speaker 1: but you never do. It's always gonna be that way

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Speaker 1: if you don't take action, you're just making it harder

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Speaker 1: on yourself by pushing it off. You just have to

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Speaker 1: do it. Do you want to do it now? I mean,

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Speaker 1: she's like the devil on his shoulder quote. It's probably

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Speaker 1: the best time to do it now because everyone is

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Speaker 1: sleeping just go somewhere in your truck. No one is

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Speaker 1: really out there right now because it's an awkward time.

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Speaker 1: And if you don't do it now, you're never gonna

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Speaker 1: do it. And you can say you'll do it tomorrow,

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Speaker 1: but you probably won't. And comrade, I told you I'll

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Speaker 1: take care of your family. Don't worry about them. Everyone

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Speaker 1: will take care of them to make sure they won't

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Speaker 1: be alone. People will help them through it. We talked

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Speaker 1: about this. They'll be okay and accept it. People who

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Speaker 1: commit suicide don't think this much. They just do it.

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Speaker 1: Did you know all that? This is a lot of

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Speaker 1: chit chat. If he had done nothing, her words would

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Speaker 1: have meant absolutely nothing. Her her words do you mean something?

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Speaker 1: Only because of his positive acts which caused his death.

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Speaker 1: He turned on the engine, he drove there, he put

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Speaker 1: the windows up, He took the drugs that made his

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Speaker 1: thinking unclear. He researched this. If for terrorists had researched

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Speaker 1: how to set off a bomb and then did it,

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Speaker 1: he would be the cause, not someone on the telephone.

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Speaker 1: let's get back to our podcast what about this? Before

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Speaker 1: I read more of her malicious texts. I have spoken

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Speaker 1: at length with his defense attorney. I've spoken at length

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Speaker 1: with his family. The family blames her thinking but for

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Speaker 1: Michelle Carter, their boy would be alive. The mother went

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Speaker 1: for a walk with him on the beach just before

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Speaker 1: he committed suicide and had no indication anything was going

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Speaker 1: to happen. But then he gets on the phone and

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Speaker 1: the text with Michelle Carter, and he goes, you gotta

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Speaker 1: do it right now. In fact, she says, if you

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Speaker 1: want it as bad as you say you do, it's

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Speaker 1: time to do it right now. Don't be scared. You

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Speaker 1: made this decision. If you don't do it tonight, you're

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Speaker 1: gonna be thinking about it all the time and you'll

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Speaker 1: be miserable the rest of your life. Not only that,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about Michelle Carter, a twenty year old woman

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Speaker 1: charged with manslaughter of a teen boy who killed himself.

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Speaker 1: She sent him thousands of texts, emails, encouraging him to

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Speaker 1: take his own life, even telling him exactly how to

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Speaker 1: do it, exactly how to jerry rigg a generator so

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Speaker 1: he will be able to kill himself. Quote. You can

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Speaker 1: also just take a hose and run that from the

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Speaker 1: exhaust pipe to the rear window of your car and

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Speaker 1: seal it with duct tape and shirts so it can't escape.

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Speaker 1: You'll die within like minutes. All pain free, Conrad, all

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Speaker 1: pain free. In fact, she actually got mad, Robin Ficker,

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Speaker 1: when a friend of Conrad's try to move her tribute

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Speaker 1: baseball tournament to her dead boyfriend to the dead boyfriend's

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Speaker 1: hometown instead of her hometown, and she actually got mad

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Speaker 1: at him and wrote in a takes you're not trying

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Speaker 1: to get credit for this argue was my idea. I mean,

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Speaker 1: really seriously, Robin, you know there's no law in Massachusetts

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Speaker 1: against someone assisting in a suicide. There's no law here

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Speaker 1: but for his acts. You use the term but four.

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Speaker 1: But for his acts. He wouldn't be dead if he

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Speaker 1: had done nothing, He wouldn't have been dead. His acts

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Speaker 1: caused this death. Her words standing alone did not. Her

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Speaker 1: words didn't cause that. If he would all me and

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Speaker 1: said the same thing. I wouldn't have committed suicide. In

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Speaker 1: my mind, she prayed on an innocent boy. Depression and

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Speaker 1: teen boys is very common. She knew he had tried

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Speaker 1: to commit suicide in the past, and all it too.

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Speaker 1: It was basically a feather on his back for him

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Speaker 1: to jump off a cliff. In my mind, it's like

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Speaker 1: it's tru doing someone how to create a bomb and

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Speaker 1: then telling them when, where, how, and then standing back

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Speaker 1: when the bomb goes off, wiping their hands, and it's saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: I had nothing to do with that. It's like the

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Speaker 1: getaway driver out in the car during the bank robbery.

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Speaker 1: Oh I wasn't there. I didn't have anything to do

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Speaker 1: with it. I mean, do you not see that analogy?

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Speaker 1: Robin Thicker. I see your analogy, but it doesn't carry

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Speaker 1: the day. She was also taking drugs herself to treat

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Speaker 1: her psychiatric condition, and she wasn't thinking clear a play.

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Speaker 1: She was taken Selexa or whatever that is for depression.

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Speaker 1: And there is a very controversial doctor, and let me

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Speaker 1: just say controversial that is stating that because she was

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Speaker 1: on the antidepressant Selexa, which is prescribed widely. It's Dr

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Speaker 1: Peter Brigine I believe is his name, Peter Brigeen or Briggan,

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Speaker 1: very controversial psychiatrist, claiming that she was basically involuntarily intoxicated

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Speaker 1: at the time because she was on an antidepressant. That's

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Speaker 1: going nowhere. All right, that's a crazy argument that's not working.

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Speaker 1: It may not be working, but it's certainly one that

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Speaker 1: the defense has to make. They have to throw in

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Speaker 1: all possible winning arguments to be competent. It's it's an

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Speaker 1: argument in the alternative. If the judge doesn't believe that

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Speaker 1: he caused his own death, then perhaps the judge can

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Speaker 1: take some solace in that argument. I think the state's

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Speaker 1: attorneys just doing their job. You're right, Uh, And that's

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Speaker 1: a very common and accepted and traditional defense theory. You

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Speaker 1: try this, that she's not the one that actually manually

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Speaker 1: killed him, too, uh, you would go the fallback argument

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Speaker 1: as Robin Ficker, who is a very well known defense

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Speaker 1: attorney throughout the country, arguing that she was under the

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Speaker 1: influence of selects. Okay, nobody's gonna buy that, But also

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Speaker 1: what about the traditional concepts of causation. That is why

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Speaker 1: I believe Robin Ficker that the defense took the case

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Speaker 1: away from a jury, and are they waived a right

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Speaker 1: to a jury trial and they are having a bents

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Speaker 1: trial with a judge only. Why do you think they

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Speaker 1: did that, Robin, Well, I think they may have made

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Speaker 1: a mistake because jury has to be unanimous. It's I

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Speaker 1: have found and I have a jury called starting here shortly. Um.

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Speaker 1: I have found that that there's always one or two

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Speaker 1: hold ups, holdouts, one or two people who have serious doubts.

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Speaker 1: It's it's more difficult to convince twelve people than just one.

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Speaker 1: They may have made a mistake in going with the judge.

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Speaker 1: You know, I have the exact opposite reaction, and for

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Speaker 1: this reason, and I'm not saying you're wrong, but I

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Speaker 1: was thinking, Robin, that it was a very wise move

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Speaker 1: to go with the bench's triumph because it takes out

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Speaker 1: all emotionality. Because when you read, for instance, when he

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Speaker 1: got out of the car and said he didn't want

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Speaker 1: to kill himself that night, she says, get back in

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Speaker 1: the car, get back in there and just do it.

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Speaker 1: When you read things like that, it's very incendiary. A

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Speaker 1: judge may be able to put emotions aside and focus

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Speaker 1: on the fact that she was not there. At the

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Speaker 1: time of the suicide. Okay, he may be able to

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Speaker 1: look at it more calmly than a drewe would. But

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Speaker 1: I see what you're saying. It's easier to convince one

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Speaker 1: than twelve and the whole concept, Robin. I mean, I've

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Speaker 1: looked up a few similarities. There was some nineteen sixties

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Speaker 1: cases where people were charged playing Russian roulette and the

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Speaker 1: other people at the table were charged with the victims murder.

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Speaker 1: There was also a case where a man loaded a

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Speaker 1: gun for his wife and offered her tips on how

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Speaker 1: to use it before she killed herself. Those have come

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Speaker 1: under fire for the reasons that you're stating, Robin. In

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Speaker 1: those cases there was actually some act committed by the

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Speaker 1: by the accused. Here, there really were no act. She

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Speaker 1: didn't purchase the generator or the truck or drive it there.

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Speaker 1: She did nothing. As a matter of fact, there was

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Speaker 1: you you talk about their relationship, it was simply a

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Speaker 1: textual relationship. They weren't physically in love. They saw each

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Speaker 1: other very few times. This was an imaginary relationship. If

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Speaker 1: you're saying they never had sex, we're taking her word

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Speaker 1: for that. But also they did meet many times, but

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Speaker 1: they texted You're right, many many more times than they met.

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Speaker 1: There were thousands, I'm walking ten twenty thousand texts, thousands

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Speaker 1: of emails, phone calls, the works. But when I hear

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Speaker 1: these words and I think about I think about my

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Speaker 1: boy and my daughter. You know they're gonna be teens

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Speaker 1: in just a few years. Robin Ficker, think if someone

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Speaker 1: says the more you push this off, the more it's

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Speaker 1: gonna eat at you. You're ready. All you have to

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Speaker 1: do is turn on the generator and you'll be free

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Speaker 1: and happy. No more waiting, no more pain. Twenty minutes, Max,

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Speaker 1: and you'll be in heaven. Everything will be fine. If

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Speaker 1: you want it as bad as you say you do,

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Speaker 1: it's time to do it now. Don't be scared. You've

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Speaker 1: got to do it tonight. If you don't, the rest

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Speaker 1: of your life will be miserable. You know what if

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Speaker 1: somebody said that to one of my children, I would

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Speaker 1: want them under the jail. Okay, what about that Vicker?

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Speaker 1: There was no real relationship there. You have been a

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Speaker 1: ten ager and I have too. When there's a real relationship,

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Speaker 1: you want to spend as much time as you possibly

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Speaker 1: can with that other person on a daily basis, not

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Speaker 1: infrequently like these two were spending. This was not a relationship.

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Speaker 1: That was a make believe. She refers to him as

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Speaker 1: her boyfriend, and then she played it up as the

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Speaker 1: grieving girlfriend. That was meaningless talk. They were not boyfriend

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Speaker 1: and girlfriends. They were just people in the in the

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Speaker 1: cloud talking to each other. Okay. Robin Ficker, very well

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Speaker 1: known and respected attorney out of the Maryland jurisdiction and beyond,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. I know you're heading

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Speaker 1: into court right now, Robin, Thank you. I'll pick this

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Speaker 1: up with Alan the Duke. Do you joining me from

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Speaker 1: his posh pad in the Hollywood. I'll see you on

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Speaker 1: the backside. Robin. Thanks man, Thank you. I've gotta witness.

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Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna do it. No offense, but I

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Speaker 1: hope you'll lose Man, because that means another guilty person

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Speaker 1: will be on the streets. Thank to Robin Saker, by

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Speaker 1: buddy you, Alan, to you the defense attorney with whom

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Speaker 1: I've spoken extensively. Joseph Cataldo, also a very well respected lawyer,

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Speaker 1: says that Conrad Roy previously was suicidal and that at

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Speaker 1: one point Carter had taught him out of taking his life.

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Speaker 1: That will be a strong defense. What do you think

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Speaker 1: is going to happen? Alan, This is a shocking case

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Speaker 1: to me because you're taught on the school ground. You

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Speaker 1: maybe have said this to John David and Lucy. Sticks

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Speaker 1: and stones may break my bones, but words will never

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Speaker 1: hurt me. This whole case is about words, not sticks

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Speaker 1: and stones. Is it true? Can you be assaulted with words?

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Speaker 1: I could say all kinds of things to you, but

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Speaker 1: does that make me criminally liable with how you interpret

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Speaker 1: those words? Well, now I'm not just words. I don't

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Speaker 1: mean just name calling or questions. I mean explaining to

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Speaker 1: someone how to commit suicide and how to kill themselves

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Speaker 1: and goading them until they do. You know what? This

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Speaker 1: is going to be in the hands of a judge,

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Speaker 1: and we're standing by Nancy. Before we finished, let me

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Speaker 1: play a couple of minutes from the opening statements in

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Speaker 1: the trial. First, you'll hear from prosecutor Mary Claire Flynn

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Speaker 1: describing how Carter used text messages and phone calls to

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Speaker 1: push Conrad Roy towards suicide, followed by about a minute

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Speaker 1: of defense lawyer Joseph Cataldo making the point that all

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Speaker 1: of the physical actions that led to Roy's death were

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Speaker 1: his own, and that he had been on a suicidal

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Speaker 1: path for years. Tonight is the night, It's now or never.

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Speaker 1: When he delayed, she expressed frustration and even anger. You

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Speaker 1: better not be bullshitting me and say you're going to

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Speaker 1: do this than purposely get caught. She pressured him not

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Speaker 1: to procrastinate. In one text, when he simply asked her

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Speaker 1: how was your day, she replied, when are you going

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Speaker 1: to do it? Stop ignoring the question. She helped him

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Speaker 1: devise a plan to kill himself, using a combustion engine

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Speaker 1: to poison himself with carbon monoxide gas. She encouraged him

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Speaker 1: to google ways to make carbon monoxide, but she also

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Speaker 1: proposed other painless and even effective suicide methods, such as

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Speaker 1: hanging by or by using a bag. Hanging his painless

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Speaker 1: and it takes like a second if you do it right.

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Speaker 1: When they finally decided on a portable generator as mechanism

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Speaker 1: of his death, she told him to take some brenaderal

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Speaker 1: just in case. When the original generator malfunction, she told

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Speaker 1: him to get a different gas machine. It was then

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Speaker 1: that he found the gas powered water pump. She encouraged

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Speaker 1: him to conceal the suicide plan from his parents. She

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Speaker 1: told him to lie to his mother about where he

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Speaker 1: was going so that he would she would not interfere

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Speaker 1: with him leaving the house to commit suicide. She warned

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Speaker 1: him not to let his father see him get the

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Speaker 1: gas machine. She advised him on how not to get caught,

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Speaker 1: telling him not to do it in his driveway where

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Speaker 1: he would be easily found. Instructed him to go to

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Speaker 1: a secluded parking lot. Just park your car, sit there.

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Speaker 1: It's it's not a big deal. She made him promise

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Speaker 1: that he would go through with the plan. You need

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Speaker 1: to do it, Conrad. Okay, I'm going to do it today,

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Speaker 1: he said, you promise, Conrad, I promised, babe. I have

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Speaker 1: to now, Carter, you can't break a promise. Go somewhere

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Speaker 1: you know you won't get caught. You can find the

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Speaker 1: place I know you can. And he made good on

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Speaker 1: that promise. Just after six pm on July twelve, he

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Speaker 1: left his mother's house, telling her that he was going

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Speaker 1: to his friend's house. Instead, he drove to the Kmart

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Speaker 1: parking lot. His last text at was to the defendant, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm almost here. She then asks, did you delete all

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Speaker 1: the text messages? But it doesn't end with text messages.

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Speaker 1: After that last text, Conrad called the defendant at six

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Speaker 1: eight p m. Where they spoke for thirty I'm sorry.

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Speaker 1: They spoke for forty three minutes after. Immediately after that

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Speaker 1: phone call, at seven twelve, the defendant called him back

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Speaker 1: and their phones connected for another forty seven minutes. Three

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Speaker 1: minutes later, at eight o two, the defendant texts a

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Speaker 1: friend that she was just on the phone, loud noise,

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Speaker 1: she heard moaning, and after twenty minutes, he wouldn't answer

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Speaker 1: when she called his name. I would suggest that the

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Speaker 1: records will show that call was the last call that

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Speaker 1: Conrad Roy ever made. He never used his phone again,

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Speaker 1: and at five the defendant was texting another friend, I

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Speaker 1: think he just killed himself'. This case is a suicide case.

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Speaker 1: It is a suicide. It is not a homicide. And

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Speaker 1: older than Michelle Cotter, who has had a long, long

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Speaker 1: history of suicidal suicidality, suicide attempts, suicidal ideation finally caused

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Speaker 1: his own death. Michelle Kada was not present. Michelle Kada

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Speaker 1: had been texting with him the She did not physically

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Speaker 1: see this individual for over one year. The evidence will

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Speaker 1: show at times to the texting. Conrad Roy even acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that Michelle doesn't have influence over her, And the evidence

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Speaker 1: of the texting is overwhelming. That Conrad Roy was on

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Speaker 1: this path to take his own life for years. And

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Speaker 1: I would also suggest to this court go through this

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Speaker 1: case methodically and read in a chronological order. The Commonwealth

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Speaker 1: is trying to have it so that the evidence is

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Speaker 1: all about Michelle Kada. There is so much evidence about

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Speaker 1: Conrad Roy and his decisions and his choices that he made.

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Speaker 1: For instance, the power water power pump that caused the

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Speaker 1: death of Conrad Roy. We had told how did that pump?

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Speaker 1: What will the evidence show? How the pump physically got

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Speaker 1: into the car? The evidence will show that the pump

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Speaker 1: was placed in the car by Conrad Roy two days prior.

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Speaker 1: How did a generator get into the back of his truck,

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Speaker 1: not the water pump that ultimately took his life? What

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Speaker 1: about a generator two days before? The evidence will show

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Speaker 1: that Conrad Roy tried to take his own life two

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Speaker 1: days prior. And again, if you're not there when a

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Speaker 1: fire starts, who will be there to save your home?

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Speaker 1: Was simply save home security? Your smoke detectors immediately alert

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Speaker 1: emergency services at the first sign of a fire. Get

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Speaker 1: Timber sent off your system today. It's simply safe dot

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Speaker 1: com slash nancy. That's simply safe. Dot com slash nancy,

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Stories, signing off, goodbye friend,