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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff

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Speaker 2: your Wednesday episode where you've already heard me introduce the

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Speaker 2: guest and the episode topic. I am your host, Margaret

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Speaker 2: Kiljoy and my guest is Sarah Marshall.

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Speaker 3: Hello.

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Speaker 2: How are you. I'm so good. Thank you for having

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Speaker 2: me again. Yeah, I lost my train of thought. I

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Speaker 2: have a producer. Her name is Sophie hy Sophie.

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Speaker 4: Last time I checked, Sophie catches the train of thought

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Speaker 4: when it wanders away.

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Speaker 2: That's actually true and one of the nicest things about

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Speaker 2: having a producer.

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Speaker 1: I also do this in all my friendships.

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Speaker 2: Oh interesting, that's true. You are the institutional memory and

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Speaker 2: the short term memory.

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Speaker 4: Uh huh, Sophie, did I tell you? I was watching

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Speaker 4: an episode of The Dick Van Dyke Show where they

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Speaker 4: were like, I think, showing somebody around set and trying

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Speaker 4: to introduce them to the producer, and the producer went,

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Speaker 4: don't talk to me, I've got a big problem, and

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Speaker 4: I was like, wow, that feels true.

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Speaker 1: You did because you were like and in that moment

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Speaker 1: I thought of you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. I don't know what you do exactly day

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Speaker 4: to day, but I know that every day thirty problems

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Speaker 4: arise and you solve them, and then it is five o'clock.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's a description of what Sophie does

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Speaker 2: for a living.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there you go. And sometimes opportunity is just a

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Speaker 4: duad stripper on your boat. Or however that quote from

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Speaker 4: thirty Ron.

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Speaker 2: Goes, Yeah, do not know the quote.

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Speaker 1: A lot of times people will be like, and you know,

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Speaker 1: what's one of your greatest skills? And I say problem solving,

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Speaker 1: but like not in ironic way, like literally.

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Speaker 2: I mean it's like part of why I'm like kind

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Speaker 2: of over doing everything DIY constantly as I'm like, whoa,

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Speaker 2: what if other people working together makes a thing better

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Speaker 2: and actually able to happen.

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Speaker 1: Kind of like indie media.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's true. Oh shit, which is, by the way,

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Speaker 2: this week's subject.

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Speaker 1: I know, I just producer the podcast.

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Speaker 2: You absolutely did. The other person who's audio engineering, which

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Speaker 2: is different than production but is related is Eva hi

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Speaker 2: Eva hi Eva. Our theme musical was written for us

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Speaker 2: by an women. This is part two about indie media,

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Speaker 2: and it's a two parter, so it was the second

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Speaker 2: half for people who are capable of doing that level

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Speaker 2: of math, which is that the second part is the

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Speaker 2: second half of the thing, so where we last left

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Speaker 2: our heroes. They had a lot of contexts, you know,

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Speaker 2: like coming up with this big protest and they're like,

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Speaker 2: you know, do we have to start from scratch and

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Speaker 2: they said, no, we have context. Margaret spent an hour

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Speaker 2: explaining it to us, and then they said to themselves, well,

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Speaker 2: then we should probably all work together. Because indie media

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Speaker 2: was from the beginning in international organization. I was reading

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Speaker 2: an interview with someone who is, you know, one of

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Speaker 2: these journalists who had been a journalist since the sixties

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Speaker 2: or whatever, who is At some of these first meetings,

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Speaker 2: activist techies and journalists in Seattle were hanging out in

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Speaker 2: the office space that had been rented by movement lawyers

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Speaker 2: for the big upcoming protest, and they were talking to

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Speaker 2: people from all over Latin America and Europe and Australia

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Speaker 2: about how to launch indimedia dot org, which is more

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Speaker 2: work of like launching a website than like, when I

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Speaker 2: think of any website that I've launched, which is usually

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Speaker 2: about fifteen years ago. I was very prone to getting

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Speaker 2: a bad idea and then going and registering a domain

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Speaker 2: name and then like setting up three email addresses attached

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Speaker 2: to it and then fifteen years later still be paying

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Speaker 2: for those URLs. I know that one. Yeah, it's a

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Speaker 2: truly universal problem, knowing everyone has.

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Speaker 4: Like two thousands experience.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, don't ask me about my steampunk erotica website.

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Speaker 2: And so first thing with the name Margaret Kiljoy on

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Speaker 2: it that was published anyway lunderbus dot net. Oh it

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Speaker 2: was good. Now as steamy punk dot net. It's gone

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Speaker 2: for really good. That's good. Yeah, shame, which means I

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Speaker 2: missed gear rotica, but I like steamy punk better. I

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Speaker 2: like steamy punk better too. So they set up indimedia

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Speaker 2: dot org so that people could go and post to

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Speaker 2: the news wire what was happening and break a sort

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Speaker 2: of anticipated media blackout about it. And realistically these protests

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Speaker 2: ended up so big that it could not have been

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Speaker 2: a true media blackout about it, but protesters in the

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Speaker 2: US were pretty used to not getting coverage. During the protests,

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Speaker 2: one source says that they had two million hits on

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Speaker 2: their website. Another source says that they had two point

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Speaker 2: five million hits every two hours, which is fundamentally a

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Speaker 2: different order magnitude.

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Speaker 4: But I can understand people at the time not really

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Speaker 4: knowing to ask or to understand the difference.

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Speaker 2: I know, and I actually find that the two point

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Speaker 2: five million hits every two hours. I would have thrown

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Speaker 2: away the grandiose number as like I don't know how

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Speaker 2: you do this, but like if I read multiple sources

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Speaker 2: and one person like a thousand people came, and then

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Speaker 2: the other one is like eighteen million people came and

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Speaker 2: they destroyed everything, you know, and like you kind of

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Speaker 2: go with the mean or like the mode on that one. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: In this case, the two million hits was like a

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Speaker 2: random pop article about it, just being like, oh, this

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Speaker 2: is what it was doing. The two point five million

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Speaker 2: hits was like an academic paper that interviewed like seventeen

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Speaker 2: participants and like had all of its shit. So I

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Speaker 2: trust that one in this case, So it's.

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Speaker 1: The opposite of one a man says he's six feet

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Speaker 1: tall and he's actually five eight.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, But in this.

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Speaker 1: Case, the man says he's six feet tall and he's

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Speaker 1: actually six foot five.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Great, wait, I'm going to tell you all something

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Speaker 2: off mic anyway, now that you all have learned this wonderful,

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Speaker 2: incriminating fact about me. Yeah, it was great. Yeah. Indie

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Speaker 2: media its updates were spread by mainstream media channels. Basically,

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Speaker 2: mainstream media channels are like, oh, this is actually a

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Speaker 2: very useful source of information, thank you. And the Independent

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Speaker 2: Media Center as it was called, was physically located in

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Speaker 2: a downtown office space that they shared with a bunch

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Speaker 2: of other organizations, and every night the protest lasted about

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Speaker 2: a week. We did a two part about them recently.

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Speaker 2: They're very big and interesting, and every night they gathered

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Speaker 2: updates from the previous night, and every morning they went

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Speaker 2: to the local public radio station and broadcast out what

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Speaker 2: they knew. And part of the reason they were able

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Speaker 2: to do that is because it's not really as much

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Speaker 2: of a complete break from all other infrastructure as people

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Speaker 2: might want to paint it. Right, a lot of the

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Speaker 2: IMC volunteers and organizers were journalists with real credentials who

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Speaker 2: had been doing things for decades.

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Speaker 4: When you think about it, the idea kind of it

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Speaker 4: gets into the sense of like not painting the protesters

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Speaker 4: as human beings with like lives and jobs and experiences.

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Speaker 4: It's like part of sort of seeing them as an undifferentiated.

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Speaker 2: Mob totally, which is part of why it's always important

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Speaker 2: for like, if you want to do a media narrative

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Speaker 2: where you kind of talk trash on protest. They're all unemployed,

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Speaker 2: twenty three year old people, especially like white men. You know,

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Speaker 2: of course, like you make them us undifferentiated, but unemployed

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Speaker 2: and young.

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Speaker 4: Yes, and there's you know that certainly exists because like

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Speaker 4: young white guys do love drumming. But there's so many

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Speaker 4: old people at protests, and my very narrow experience.

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Speaker 2: It's true, there are a lot, and it's really heartening

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Speaker 2: every single time. Yeah. So journalists went to the protests

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Speaker 2: and they did shit that hadn't been done much before. Like,

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Speaker 2: for example, the first live stream video I've ever heard

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Speaker 2: about was at this demonstration in nineteen ninety nine. Someone

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Speaker 2: took a heavy backpack. I mean, I don't know the

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Speaker 2: backpack was heavy before they did all this stuff to.

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Speaker 4: It, but you know, once the stuff was in there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they attached a camera to a laptop and then

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Speaker 2: a nineties wireless modem that I had never heard of

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Speaker 2: that I spent way too long reading about this afternoon

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Speaker 2: called a ricochet.

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Speaker 4: Ooh riko, Yeah, he's irishcche.

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Speaker 2: Wow, exactly, that's what it was. It wasn't spelled like

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Speaker 2: the English word ricochet.

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Speaker 4: It was yeah, I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 2: In penance, you're gonna have to write more period romance

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Speaker 2: heserratica under that now, yeah, I accept, all right, well

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Speaker 2: that'll be the next closob Media book Club when you

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Speaker 2: turn it in ahead.

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Speaker 4: But okay, but this sounds very heavy and incredible and

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Speaker 4: like also very attractive. Honestly, I'm attracted to whoever's wearing this.

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Speaker 4: Realize it's going out on a limb, but I'll say it.

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Speaker 2: No, that makes sense. There's a specific vibe to radical hackers,

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Speaker 2: you know, where like they have like some of the

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Speaker 2: like hacker stereotypes, but they kind of judge it up

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Speaker 2: a bit and like so tend to know how to

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Speaker 2: like dress a little nicer, you know.

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Speaker 4: Well, and also I guess like figuring out like both

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Speaker 4: being willing to figure out and to carry And I realized,

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Speaker 4: you know, probably a lot of people worked on this

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Speaker 4: and it was a team effort.

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Speaker 2: But like this.

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Speaker 4: Late nineties modem live stream is like just incredible honestly

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Speaker 4: to think about. It's like thinking about the Right Brothers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, totally the Right Brothers of showing people police

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Speaker 2: violence basically.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and they only streamed for sixteen seconds, but it

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Speaker 4: changed everything.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, all of their backup batteries are forty

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Speaker 2: five pounds, you know, live streaming from Kitty Hawk, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean a couple years later. I used to go

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Speaker 2: to demonstrations as a videographer. Every single videographer had a

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Speaker 2: runner attached to them where you would shoot onto video,

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Speaker 2: onto tape, and then as soon as you were done,

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Speaker 2: or if something real spicy happened, you give the video

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Speaker 2: to the runner, who gets the fuck out of the

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Speaker 2: protest man, so that if the police arrest you, because

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Speaker 2: they would target people with cameras, they don't get the

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Speaker 2: footage and the footage gets out.

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Speaker 4: Which is like the kind of thing that I feel

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Speaker 4: like you as an American encounter in stories about other countries,

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Speaker 4: you know, like that's the kind of thing that would

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Speaker 4: be like an Oliver Stone's Salvador, and it's like, no,

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Speaker 4: we do that, we do that too.

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Speaker 2: I know that story. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. I'm

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Speaker 2: just excited. I knew a pop culture reverence. It is

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Speaker 2: really not pop culture evidence. It's an Oliver Stone movie

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Speaker 2: from the eighties or nineties or whatever.

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Speaker 4: Oliver Stone is a pretty poppy.

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Speaker 2: Guy, you know, I'll take it.

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Speaker 4: I also love that it's like the most niche movie,

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Speaker 4: you know, because like most people have not even heard

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Speaker 4: of that one because it's a big downer.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I loved that one. And it's a movie

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Speaker 2: about Robert Evans going to El Salvador exactly and smuggling

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Speaker 2: out footage. And also Jim Belushi is for some reason.

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Speaker 4: I love that it starts as like James Woods as

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Speaker 4: this down and out we're a photographer and he's trying

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Speaker 4: to get a job and he's like calling around trying

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Speaker 4: to get sent to Al Salvador, and he's got just

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Speaker 4: like a slug quarter that he's using in his like

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Speaker 4: in the payphone in the lazy boarding house payphone. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I just love that. Yeah, Yeah, I'll watch any movie

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Speaker 4: about a character who starts off using a slug and

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Speaker 4: a payphone probably that's fair, right, And just like but

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Speaker 4: that's the allure of this story too, right, where it's

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Speaker 4: like the truth is out there, not in a paranormal

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Speaker 4: X Files way, but just like, no, it's right there

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Speaker 4: and people aren't talking about it and we could.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And so they went out with this big old

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Speaker 2: backpack and live streamed and.

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Speaker 4: Like one of the people secretly controlling an animatronic droid

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Speaker 4: and Disney World.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Originally indie media was put together just for that protest,

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Speaker 2: which is funny because it was a global coalition of

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Speaker 2: people to put together the media for one protest. But

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Speaker 2: it spread like fire, with new cities and regions launching

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Speaker 2: their own independent media centers all over the world. Most

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Speaker 2: of them centered around in indiemedia dot org site, so

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Speaker 2: it's like an independent media center is like a form

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Speaker 2: of a media collective. But almost all of them, maybe

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Speaker 2: all of them were affiliated with indiemedia dot org or

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Speaker 2: it would be like Portland dot indiemedia dot org or

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Speaker 2: Athens dot indiemedia dot org or whatever.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and I feel like that was kind of like

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Speaker 4: how websites worked in the nineties, where there would be

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Speaker 4: like local iterations of like you know, different message groups

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Speaker 4: and newsgroups and stuff, or like iterations of something by

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Speaker 4: subject or you would get into these like subcategories.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really interesting to me because it does show

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Speaker 2: that this is like an iteration, not a like complete

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Speaker 2: brand new thing, right m hmm, but it is this

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Speaker 2: really important iteration in what the Internet could be. And

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Speaker 2: by the JENOA two thousand and one protests, that I'll

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Speaker 2: likely be covering on the show at some point soon,

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Speaker 2: and I'm going to talk about some horrible stuff that

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Speaker 2: happened there later. But indie media sites that covered the protest,

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Speaker 2: we're getting five million hits every couple of hours, like

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Speaker 2: people were looking. And so there was this chant that

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Speaker 2: I always hated. The whole world is watching. I hate

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Speaker 2: most protest chants. They just annoy me. It's great people

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Speaker 2: should chant I'm just a killjoy is literally how I

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Speaker 2: got that name.

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Speaker 4: Just like you care, you have tasting chance?

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Speaker 2: Perhaps right? Yeah, you wanna hear my favorite one? Yes,

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Speaker 2: I do. This is at one point, this is the

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Speaker 2: high point of my career as an activist. At one

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Speaker 2: point I got a black block of about thirty to

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Speaker 2: forty people chanting, what do we want a free association

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Speaker 2: of cooperative autonomous groups for the purpose mutual aid? When

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Speaker 2: do we want it now? I like that. That's the

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Speaker 2: high points. All downhill from there, except for me when

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Speaker 2: I would carry around a boombox and play tango at

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Speaker 2: demos because I was like bored of all the rage

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Speaker 2: against the machine or whatever.

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Speaker 4: You know, well, yeah you do need to hear some

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Speaker 4: like horny music. Occasionally rather than angry music exactly.

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Speaker 2: So by two thousand and four, people say it peaked

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Speaker 2: in like two thousand and four, two thousand and six

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Speaker 2: with like one hundred and sixty five sites or whatever.

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Speaker 2: By two thousand and four, there's one hundred and forty

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Speaker 2: of these around the world in thirty different languages. Each

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Speaker 2: one is maintained by a local collective. They allowed people

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Speaker 2: to coordinate with each other so that like people in

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Speaker 2: Brazil could see what people in you know, some other

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Speaker 2: place in the world. Actually, the specific example I read

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Speaker 2: about was like India and Brazil coordinating with each other

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Speaker 2: by being able to look and follow each other's struggles, right,

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Speaker 2: And it allowed people to coordinate with each other to

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Speaker 2: see what was happening, and so they could compare notes

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Speaker 2: and tactics and learn how to advance their causes. And

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Speaker 2: it really allowed people to be like, how do we

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Speaker 2: organize protests? But also how do we organize social movements?

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Speaker 2: And just like all of this shit, it was a

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Speaker 2: I don't know, the big fucking deal.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And also it feels like, you know, people in

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Speaker 4: different countries being able to learn and from what was

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Speaker 4: happening in places far away that they couldn't get information

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Speaker 4: about using traditional forms of media previous to this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, And as much as we complain about the Internet,

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Speaker 4: like that's pretty great.

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Speaker 2: I know, it's a real double edged sword. The Internet

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Speaker 2: and even the social media that indie media is going

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Speaker 2: to create. You know, when are we going.

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Speaker 4: To get some single edged swords? That's what I would

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Speaker 4: really like.

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Speaker 2: That's a good idea, like ones that only hurt the

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Speaker 2: other person instead of you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, once where you can just use it, you know,

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Speaker 4: to like cut your meat.

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Speaker 2: Are you trying to say that the katana people who

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Speaker 2: go to the gas station and buy katanas or the

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Speaker 2: whatever mal Ninja SAIDs Are you trying to say that

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Speaker 2: they have it right? Because a katana is a single

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Speaker 2: edged blade. Maybe that is what I'm saying. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Or a machete as well, you know, very reasonable thing

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Speaker 4: to have.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true, I have one.

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Speaker 4: But is a machete a knife or a sword?

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Speaker 2: No, it's an agricultural tool.

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Speaker 4: Like a plow or a pitchfork.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a site or all these other things that get

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Speaker 2: used as weapons. Anyway, before I decided to get pedantic

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Speaker 2: incorrectly about machetes, most of these sites are long gone

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Speaker 2: outside of the US, there are a bunch of sites

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Speaker 2: that are still active and or ones that lasted for

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Speaker 2: a lot longer. A lot of those actually literally came

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Speaker 2: down because of government repression and raids, but we'll talk

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Speaker 2: about that later. And any media collectives did all sorts

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Speaker 2: of shit on top of just run these websites, although

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Speaker 2: those websites are an incredible amount of both work and value.

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Speaker 2: Right the New York City Collective started the newspaper The Independent,

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Speaker 2: which is still around as I understand. In Portland, we

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Speaker 2: had a video collective and we would film protests and

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Speaker 2: make short documentaries and play them at video screenings around

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Speaker 2: the city once a month, the main ones. I remember

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Speaker 2: at this pizza shop that I really liked that let

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Speaker 2: us do them like kind of a hippieizza shop, and

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Speaker 2: all of the different independent video journalists would come and

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Speaker 2: we'd like get together and be like, Okay, this is

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Speaker 2: what I have for the screen, this is what I have,

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Speaker 2: and kind of did a YouTube before we could do

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Speaker 2: it on the internet easily.

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Speaker 4: He goes do YouTube like one building at a time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was totally to have to do. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: You actually had to come out and it was nice

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Speaker 2: because It was like a way to have you know,

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Speaker 2: thirty forty people come and you talk about each of

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Speaker 2: the videos afterwards, and it would be it would just

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Speaker 2: be like some students took over their school for a day,

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Speaker 2: or you know, the following strike is happening, or you know,

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Speaker 2: whatever the thing is, and people would go out and

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Speaker 2: make a five minute video and come and show it.

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Speaker 4: That is really cool.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there is.

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Speaker 4: It feels like you were existing in this like middle

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Speaker 4: ground between like you know, we have video and like

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Speaker 4: camquorder technology and stuff, and we have this technology that

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Speaker 4: makes it easier to produce this news media, but we

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Speaker 4: still have to take it physically around and show it

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Speaker 4: to people.

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Speaker 2: Right, totally, it would dumpster dive Blockbuster and get all

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Speaker 2: the old VHS tapes and then dub over whatever it

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Speaker 2: was with our videos and then like put them back

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Speaker 2: in the cases and then like draw with sharpie on

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Speaker 2: the cases and then give them away at the screenings

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Speaker 2: and things. It was fun. Yeah, simpler times. I say

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Speaker 2: that as if like a bunch of people didn't get

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Speaker 2: really badly hurt by police during this time, right, But you.

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Speaker 4: Know, but like it's uh that I mean, I don't

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Speaker 4: know when I see like kind of adolescents today feeling

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Speaker 4: nostalgic about sort of the Y two K era. It's like, yeah,

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Speaker 4: like some things are timeless or at least have been

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Speaker 4: going on for longer than we like to think. But

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Speaker 4: there is just the you felt less overwhelmed back then,

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Speaker 4: like people were bored. I don't think anyone's bored anymore.

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Speaker 4: No one's been bored in like years. We deserve to

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Speaker 4: be bored.

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Speaker 2: I let my phone die on a regular basis these days.

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Speaker 2: This isn't so I'm very smart. No, I don't recommend it.

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Speaker 2: I was like in a waiting room the other day

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Speaker 2: and I was just like, my phone was dead. The

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Speaker 2: other person that was like hanging out with was like

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Speaker 2: not there, And so I'm just like sitting in this

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Speaker 2: waiting room being like I'm gonna read that magazine on them, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know on the rack.

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Speaker 4: You know what I do sometimes is absolutely you know,

386
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Speaker 4: just feel so out of step with this moment in time.

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Speaker 4: Is just like I'll take a walk and I won't

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Speaker 4: be listening to anything. I'll just be walking around looking

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Speaker 4: at things, and it's just like, wow, when did we

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Speaker 4: think that there wasn't enough entertainment in day to day life.

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Speaker 4: And at the same time, daily life gets boring.

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Speaker 2: And that's why you need podcasts.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and there's a reason why we created this media

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Speaker 4: and we had this longing to have strangers talk to us.

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Speaker 4: But also it's just like, don't listen to so many

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Speaker 4: strangers that you can't ever hear what you're thinking.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know what strangers people should listen to.

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Speaker 2: And you know what is timeless? What advertising?

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Speaker 4: That's true, it's.

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Speaker 2: Actually not even particularly fundamentally different than it was twenty

401
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Speaker 2: five years ago or on.

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Speaker 4: There even one hundred and twenty five.

403
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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, that's right by our snake oil. We try

404
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,800
Speaker 2: to filter it out and we can't always. We can

405
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Speaker 2: use the box later, here's a bunch of ads. You

406
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:27,040
Speaker 2: can do whatever you want, and we're back. So the

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Speaker 2: Independent Media Center in Chiapas, Mexico, which is the southernmost

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Speaker 2: state in Mexico, the southern east southeast most state in Mexico,

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Speaker 2: or the Zapatistas are based out of.

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Speaker 4: That's almost the word chips, But then there's two ways

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Speaker 4: in there. How my brain works, Yeah, totally. They're working

412
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Speaker 4: in an environment where most people didn't have computers. So

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Speaker 4: the indie media people there would take news from the

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Speaker 4: international network and record it onto audio tapes and distribute

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Speaker 4: it in person and play it on the radio. In Brazil,

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Speaker 4: folks would set up screens and public places, like with

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Speaker 4: projectors out on the streets and they would play the

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Speaker 4: news and have discussions about it, and they would pass

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Speaker 4: around photocopy news sheets and like wheat paste them onto

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Speaker 4: the walls, so you can like literally walk around and

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Speaker 4: you're like, oh, there's the news. It is wheat pasted

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Speaker 4: onto the wall. Do people still use wheat paste?

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Speaker 2: Is?

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Speaker 4: What's the status of wheat paste.

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Speaker 2: I haven't we pasted anything in a long time, but

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Speaker 2: wheat paste is kind of interesting because it's I am

427
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Speaker 2: not telling you to do or not do anything. It's

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Speaker 2: usually legal. It's one it feels like crime, right, but

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Speaker 2: it's usually legal to wheat paste. Depending on what you're

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Speaker 2: wheat pasting onto.

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Speaker 4: Do you buy it or can you make it out of?

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00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,159
Speaker 2: Oh you make your flower? Yeah, it's flower. There's everyone

433
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Speaker 2: has their own like recipes. It's funny like one recipe

434
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Speaker 2: that was distributed a lot included cinnamon. I think that

435
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Speaker 2: was added as like a troll move.

436
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Speaker 4: Yeah, but maybe you know it's just maybe it's nice

437
00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,240
Speaker 4: when you're wheat pasting and you're like, m cinnamon.

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Speaker 2: I know, and it probably adds like this, like real

439
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,120
Speaker 2: slight brown patina to it. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: See, it looks like when you would have to write

441
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 4: like a fake historical document in the seventh grade and

442
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 4: then dip it in coffee or something and.

443
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,720
Speaker 2: We past it as basically paper mache. For anyone who's curious,

444
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,119
Speaker 2: you can look it up. It's real easy. Don't whatever.

445
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:21,240
Speaker 2: I'm not going to tell you to do or not

446
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:21,680
Speaker 2: do crime.

447
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:23,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, who knows what you're going to do. I don't

448
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:24,240
Speaker 4: know you.

449
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, getting in trouble is a fake idea. I've been

450
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 2: thinking about that a bunch recently, where I'm thinking about

451
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 2: how like when you're a kid, they're like, oh, that's

452
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,960
Speaker 2: like against the rules, and you slowly learned that against

453
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,160
Speaker 2: the rules is really different than against the law. Yeah,

454
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 2: you know.

455
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,959
Speaker 4: And also that against the law is still you know,

456
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,879
Speaker 4: not really tied to any time lest fake idea, idea

457
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 4: of justice or anything. It's because sort of what's convenient

458
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 4: for property owners at a given time.

459
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:49,359
Speaker 3: Yep.

460
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 2: Totally another thing that an indie media did that I

461
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 2: thought was pretty neat Indie media and Australia wanted to

462
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 2: get news into prisons, so they would go and set

463
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,919
Speaker 2: up micro radio broadcast. Oh oh gosh. No, So they

464
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,120
Speaker 2: would set up little micro radio broadcast things right outside

465
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 2: the prison walls and then play audio reports about what

466
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 2: was going on in the world. That's amazing. I love that. Yeah,

467
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 2: that one. I'm like, I really like that one. There

468
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 2: was always tension between the local collectives and the larger

469
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 2: network because all of the local collectives are autonomous, right,

470
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 2: and they're making their own decisions, including making their own

471
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 2: like content moderation decisions for example, which means that there's

472
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 2: a real different vibe between different indie medias, right.

473
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,119
Speaker 4: They have mods essentially.

474
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is like kind of where mods come from.

475
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,200
Speaker 2: I mean, like there's probably people moderating on like Slashdot

476
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 2: and some other sites, but like.

477
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,160
Speaker 4: But as a figure that's necessary to a social movement, yeah,

478
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 4: maybe totally. It's so interesting.

479
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 2: I would spend a decent chunk of my time sitting

480
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 2: in front of a computer deleting shit and like getting

481
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 2: a little mad with power, you know. Yeah. During the

482
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 2: altar globalization movement, the like nineteen ninety nine to two

483
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 2: thousand and three or so movement. Most groups at the time,

484
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,880
Speaker 2: most activist groups would work on consensus decision making, where

485
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 2: everyone had to agree for a decision to go through.

486
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,400
Speaker 2: This is sometimes seen as one of the great weaknesses

487
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 2: of this movement. For example, in two thousand and two,

488
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,400
Speaker 2: there was an Illinois indie media that was a little

489
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,359
Speaker 2: bit more like They registered as a five oh one

490
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 2: C three like nonprofit and they were a little bit

491
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 2: more above board and a little less DIY and they

492
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,439
Speaker 2: managed to get a fifty thousand dollars grant from the

493
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 2: Ford Foundation. But the Indie Media Collective in Argentina and

494
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 2: soon joined by others, blocked that from happening because of

495
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 2: the Ford Foundation's ties to like capitalist and right wing politics.

496
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 2: And some folks thought, if we take that money, were

497
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 2: just another nonprofit or whatever, like just an NGO. Others

498
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,160
Speaker 2: were like, actually, if we had more money, this would

499
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 2: help us stay true to our values, because then we

500
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 2: would be a little bit less looking to kind of

501
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:06,159
Speaker 2: impress the right people.

502
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 3: You know.

503
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, the eternal debate rage is on.

504
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 2: I know, I like literally don't know what they should

505
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 2: have done. I almost don't care. That is the thing

506
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 2: that happens the thing.

507
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like, well, you're gonna do one of these

508
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 4: two things, so you might as well pick one.

509
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, And like, you know, I work, I work

510
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 2: the job. I work. I am like, this would be

511
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,199
Speaker 2: a great adtivit time, but it's not time for ads,

512
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 2: you know. It's like, really blew it on that one.

513
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, I really, It's okay. There's always a

514
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 4: lot of good opportunities.

515
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 2: For the pivot, That's true. It's ironically one of the

516
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 2: most fun parts of the episodes.

517
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 4: It is fun. Yeah, it's like you get to kind

518
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 4: of like sneak up on the audience.

519
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:49,200
Speaker 2: I feel like a gamble, but don't You're.

520
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 4: Like, you know, there was someone else who felt misunderstood,

521
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:52,679
Speaker 4: and that was the lord.

522
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 2: The footprints in the sand carrying you the whole time

523
00:25:58,000 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 2: was the advertising dollars.

524
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.

525
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:07,360
Speaker 2: All along the way, indie media has faced repression, perhaps

526
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 2: most famously and violently at the two thousand and one

527
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 2: g eight like Group of Eight protests in Genoa, Italy.

528
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,679
Speaker 2: The Group of Eight is eight like world leaders of

529
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 2: the most powerful economies, plus Russia, because basically they were like,

530
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,479
Speaker 2: well Russia wasn't like the eighth biggest economy. But they're like,

531
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 2: but you got nukes, so like you're in you know, yeah.

532
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 4: We're afraid of you.

533
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:33,439
Speaker 2: Come party. Yeah. Classic. So the protest in Genoa, Italy

534
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 2: where at a different time, and we talked about a

535
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 2: different episode. The cops shot and killed a young man

536
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 2: named Carlo Giuliani for they were like in a truck

537
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 2: and Carlo Giuliani was like chasing them with a fire

538
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 2: extinguisher and so they shot and killed him, which is

539
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 2: a totally normal thing for people to do anyway, whatever,

540
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 2: I have strong feelings about this. In two thousand and

541
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 2: one G eight protests in Genoa, Italy, the police raid

542
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 2: a school in the middle of the where the indie

543
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 2: media volunteers and activist lawyers had been gathering and it

544
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 2: was serving as like kind of a makeshift dormitory for

545
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 2: a lot of people from out of town, especially indie

546
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 2: media and lawyers. And the police later were like, we

547
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 2: got told that's where the black Bloc was, as if

548
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 2: this would make it okay that they raided this school.

549
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 2: And it's funny because like no one died, but it's

550
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 2: about as violent as you can get. Without that. There

551
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 2: are photos of bleeding heads and blood stains on like

552
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 2: the walls of the building. There's like bloodstains on a

553
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 2: radiator where someone had been bashed against it. Jesus. One

554
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 2: man lost ten teeth after being used, like he says,

555
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,959
Speaker 2: as a football. Sixty two people were injured. More than

556
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty cops stormed the place in the

557
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 2: middle of the night. Many of those who were arrested

558
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 2: were forced to shout fascist slogans and sing fascist songs

559
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 2: in jail by the police under threat of violence.

560
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 4: This cops love these surprise entrances. You know, if you're

561
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 4: so confident you should show up with an appointment.

562
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, or like it was about eleven thirty at night.

563
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 2: I think this one. In the US, it's like almost

564
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 2: universally four thirty in the morning, huh, because it's like

565
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 2: just the most vulnerable hour. It's the most vulnerable hour.

566
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 2: It's the everyone's home and asleep and groggy.

567
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 4: See, this is why pilates girlies are gonna save us.

568
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 2: All. They keep terrible hours because.

569
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 4: They're up at yeah, because they're up at four in

570
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 4: the morning to get to their five thirty reformer class.

571
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 4: All right, all right, So so when the police comes

572
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 4: serve a no knock Warren, the Pilates girlies war are

573
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 4: gonna you know, they'll have hell to pay.

574
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, at least wake everyone up.

575
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, they'll be up shredding documents because they've been keeping

576
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 4: pilates hours, assuming there's anything to shred, which there you

577
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 4: know so often isn't. But yeah, I feel like I

578
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 4: have to make a joke about how eleven thirty PM

579
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 4: is actually like, you know, since it's the Italian police,

580
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 4: they like wanted to get to it first thing, and guess.

581
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 2: You know, after dinner the day got away. Yeah, totally

582
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 2: absolutely have espresso first. No, this is fair. I absolutely

583
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 2: would go out to dinner when I was in Italy

584
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 2: and then it would be like eleven thirty at night

585
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 2: and be like can we go home now? They're like, ah,

586
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 2: we're still smoking and talking in a language you don't

587
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 2: know tomorrow now, which is you know, not my fault

588
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 2: that I don't speak Italian while I'm in Italy, but

589
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 2: like not. One of the ninety three arrested protesters in

590
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 2: the raid was found guilty of anything. There was two

591
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 2: bottles by the front door, so they were accused of

592
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 2: making Molotov cocktails and they just the state really wanted

593
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 2: to get them and there was nothing. The main way

594
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 2: that you know, it didn't happen in the United States

595
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 2: is that thirteen cops were convicted for their part in

596
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 2: the violence. Why that is the main way, isn't it? Yeah? Man,

597
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 2: And it was the largest criminal investigation into police in

598
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 2: the country's history. And I think that implies that includes

599
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 2: like fascist Well, of course during the fascist era didn't

600
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 2: interrogate the police about anything, but like.

601
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 4: But any kind of post fascism attempts said, yeah, yeah. Also,

602
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 4: I imagine that a lot of people had you know,

603
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 4: bottles by their door that night and were like, my god,

604
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 4: it could have been me.

605
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 2: What's funny is every now and then, like cops will

606
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 2: rate a place during an activist thing and be like

607
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 2: one anytime there's a bottle, They're like, oh, they're planning

608
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 2: to thromolotovs, despite the fact that especially in the States,

609
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 2: like very very few people thromlotov cocktails here because of

610
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 2: the way that our laws work and how the cost

611
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 2: benefit analysis rarely works out on that one for people, and.

612
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 4: Because it's like assault with a deadly weapon technically or

613
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 4: something like that.

614
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, uh, improvise munitions, and like there's just like

615
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 2: all kinds of like mandatory minimum stuff. As soon as

616
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 2: you add fire or explosives to any crime in the

617
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 2: United States, it's like kind of not worth it. That's

618
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 2: really good to know. Yeah, yeah, so you have to

619
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 2: change your evenings plans. But the other thing that happens

620
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 2: is that they always accuse people of like throwing piss.

621
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 2: This is this like ageless myth that protesters throw piss

622
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 2: at police.

623
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 4: Okay, you know why I think they're saying this just

624
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 4: off the top of my head, because the kinds of

625
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 4: men who get into being like police or like I

626
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 4: don't know, senators or whatever in the positions of power

627
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 4: where you lie about this kind of thing, they all

628
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 4: want to.

629
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 2: Have pissed throughout it them. Yeah. Probably that's why they

630
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 2: have those jobs. Yeah. I have absolutely met anarchist professional

631
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 2: doms who specifically have like high powered, like rich like

632
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 2: CEO ish people.

633
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 4: Who are like who are like protest me, yeah, exactly,

634
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 4: protest me so hard, tell me I'm a dirty capitalist.

635
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 4: Yeah oh yeah.

636
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 2: And I think one of the other reasons is that

637
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 2: if you raid a makeshift dormitory in the middle of

638
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 2: the night, there is urine and bottles in there.

639
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 4: That's true because there's guys in there.

640
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, yeah, and there's maybe a limited

641
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 2: number of bathrooms. And even if there wasn't, there's guys

642
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 2: in there and they drank beer. Yeap, beer goes out,

643
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 2: he goes in fair enough, honestly, So I don't think

644
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 2: the bottles are full of piss. I was just thinking

645
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 2: about the myths that they constantly repeat.

646
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, are this idea that like any normal thing

647
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 4: that's done by a population you're trying to dehumanize to

648
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 4: the public. Is like you change it into like, yeah,

649
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 4: they're doing it for like a scary, weaponized reason rather

650
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 4: than a normal, everyday person reason.

651
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, which I have to admit sometimes when they

652
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 2: like raid a right wing person's house and they're like

653
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 2: and check out this cache of arms and it's like

654
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,239
Speaker 2: five guns and a bunch of ammunition, and you're like,

655
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 2: that's just gun owners in America, right, it doesn't mean anything,

656
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 2: you know, Yeah, Like.

657
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 4: It's like, looks like this person's fixing to hunt quail.

658
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, they own an AR fifteen. Like I think

659
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 2: a hundred million people in this country, you know.

660
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 4: Like I mean, right, you kind of have to pick.

661
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 4: You can either have like rampant, fairly unchecked gun owner

662
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 4: and a general you know, turning of a blind eye

663
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 4: towards extreme gun violence and the whole thoughts and prayers template,

664
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 4: or you can get upset about an activist owning five guns.

665
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 4: I don't think you get to have both.

666
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 2: Right, totally. Yeah, and so one of the cops who

667
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 2: was convicted of this raid said that they left the

668
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 2: place looking like a quote butcher shop. That's how Jesus

669
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 2: Christ awful they were.

670
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 4: Yeah. The worst is when they're I mean, I don't

671
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 4: know in what spirit this was said, but the worst

672
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 4: is when you have these accounts of police violence, and then, inevitably,

673
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 4: in so many of these, you sort of hear the

674
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 4: ways that they're sort of cheerfully celebrating it and feeling

675
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 4: like really psyched about all the violence that they carried out.

676
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 2: I think this person was kind of trying to be like, ah,

677
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 2: I'm good to lower my yeah you know, but yeah,

678
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 2: but yeah, like very very in.

679
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 4: Other cases, Yeah, especially when you find like, you know,

680
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 4: the secret Facebook that they're all in, which I feel

681
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 4: like has happened in multiple of these. By now, speaking

682
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 4: of how the Internet has evolved that run decade anyway.

683
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 2: So another moment of police violence. No Boy one of

684
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 2: the more famous indie media journalists, both famous a little

685
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 2: bit beforehand as a writer and an activist and then

686
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 2: later because of his death, and so a man named

687
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 2: brad Will, Bradley Will. He was in some ways sort

688
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 2: of the archtypical super activist anarchy guy from that era.

689
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 2: Like he just was, like you know, in his early thirties,

690
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,720
Speaker 2: mid thirties and traveled constantly, going everywhere and playing songs

691
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 2: on acoustic guitar and like you can kind of imagine

692
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 2: the man. And he would spin fire and like go

693
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 2: and try and live his best life and whatever, and

694
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 2: he would produce independent journalism for indie media from everywhere

695
00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 2: he went. And he filmed his own murder in Oha,

696
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,839
Speaker 2: Mexico in two thousand and six. He went down there

697
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 2: to report on the teachers uprising that'll one day be covering,

698
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 2: and the federal police gunned him down while he was

699
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 2: quite obviously armed with only a camera and with some

700
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 2: other repression they faced. European indie media sites lasted way

701
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 2: longer than US ones. There are a couple indie media

702
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 2: sites around in the US still, I think. But in

703
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 2: twenty fourteen Bristol Indie Media in the UK was taken

704
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 2: offline because the server was raided by cops who wanted logs.

705
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 2: Because indie media, like, if you have this open platform, right,

706
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 2: people are going to post communicas on it. So people

707
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 2: are gonna be like, I smashed up the bank of

708
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,800
Speaker 2: the evil Man and here's my long poetic communica about

709
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,439
Speaker 2: why I am amazing or whatever. I'm like, not even

710
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 2: mad about it. It's just that's the thing that happened. Now.

711
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 4: It's just like if people have a lot of access

712
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 4: to that, then different people will share different things and

713
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 4: that'll be one of them totally.

714
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 2: And someone in Bristol burned on a police firearms range

715
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 2: and then I believe wrote a communicate about it.

716
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 4: Kind of a victimless crime as long as nobody's in there,

717
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 4: which is hard to doing sure, but still, yeah.

718
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 2: This is certainly fewer people will be well, you know

719
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 2: they're already bad shots, but whatever. And then in twenty seventeen,

720
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:25,879
Speaker 2: Germany like shut down linksuten dot indiemedia dot org, which

721
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 2: was the main leftist organizing site in the country at

722
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 2: the time. Link Sutton translates to bottom left, which is

723
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 2: a reference in this case to the lower part of Germany.

724
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 2: But it became all of Germany's indie media in a

725
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 2: lot of ways. And I think its name is probably

726
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 2: also a play on being from the bottom in the

727
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 2: left because of being like anti authoritarian left, and like

728
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 2: the Zapatistas talk about being from the left and below

729
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 2: a lot. I also, and this is just I think

730
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 2: important for everyone to know that if you type link

731
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 2: sutin into Google Translate as link son and replace one

732
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 2: of the t's, it means left wing horse. And I

733
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 2: was really impressed by the German left's audacity and that

734
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 2: I double checked and it actually was bottom left, not

735
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 2: left wing horse. I like both of them. I agree

736
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 2: now they're both awesome.

737
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 1: I love left wing horn.

738
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 2: I just saying I still got no problem with the

739
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 2: bottom left. If I'm still making sexual references.

740
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 4: That's true. It's a good quadrant.

741
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 2: So the cops shut down the site. They rated three

742
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 2: different places as relates to this, and they held all

743
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,320
Speaker 2: of its servers. The site was banned, its logos were banned.

744
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 2: Germany has an understandable precedent for the ability to ban

745
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 2: political logos, but I actually think This is an example

746
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 2: of where that shit doesn't work, is that they're banning that.

747
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 2: And part of the reason they're banning it because the

748
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 2: country was in a fight against left extremism, even though

749
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 2: they have a specific Nazi problem and it was specific that.

750
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,280
Speaker 2: The reason, as best as I can tell, the reason

751
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 2: that the site was taken down that in twenty sixteen,

752
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 2: someone released a DOS of everyone who went to the

753
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 2: AfD convention the Nazi political party of Germany. So if

754
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 2: the docs is of three thousand people who went to

755
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 2: that convention were released and AfD in case you're like, well,

756
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 2: I don't understand where they sit politically, they are the

757
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 2: political party in Germany that Elon Musk supports because he

758
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 2: has fucking died.

759
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:24,240
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, he sure is. Isn't it funny how Nazi

760
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 4: used to be like an insult in the way that

761
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 4: you would call someone a Nazi and they'd be like, hey,

762
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 4: I'm not a Nazi. Yeah, And now it's just a

763
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 4: term's for people who are like, yeah, I'm a Nazi totally.

764
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 2: Although actually, when a bunch of Nazis docks me, I

765
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 2: was like complaining about it on Twitter and one of

766
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 2: them like replied on Twitter and was like, we're not Nazis,

767
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: were Neo Confederates? Oh brah, Like what wait, man, that

768
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 2: might be worse. I don't even know six of one honestly.

769
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're like you're like great, still gross yeah off.

770
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:54,919
Speaker 2: Yeah.

771
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 4: Also, if you're that upset about semantics and if you

772
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 4: have beliefs that are the beliefs of Nazis, than like

773
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 4: you might be a Nazi. Yeah, I'm sorry.

774
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 2: No. And it's like neo Confederate is like all right, look,

775
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,879
Speaker 2: you're gonna describe the two groups of people that are

776
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 2: like the only time I can really clearly point to

777
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 2: the American Army as the good guys in a conflict. Yeah,

778
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 2: you know, that's very true. Both of those things were

779
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 2: stopped by a river of blood.

780
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:25,879
Speaker 4: As opposed to the Spanish American War.

781
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 2: Callback anyway, one of the main things that brought down

782
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 2: the Link Sutton or Sutton, I don't know how to

783
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 2: pronounce German either way, was that they were helping people

784
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 2: coordinate protests, and that is like what indie media kind

785
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 2: of started off doing, and so it was raided and

786
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,839
Speaker 2: shut down. The FEDS of various countries, including the US,

787
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 2: have been trying to raid and subpoena indie media since

788
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 2: basically forever hoping to get IP addresses of posters and

789
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 2: readers alike. But the techies who run these sites are

790
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 2: really smart, and so there's roadblock after roadblock when the

791
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:04,879
Speaker 2: FEDS try to get this kind of information. Mostly, though

792
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 2: indie media did not so much collapse, like it wasn't

793
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,840
Speaker 2: destroyed by the state, it became eclipsed by the things

794
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 2: that it helped spawn. And in order to talk about

795
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,800
Speaker 2: those things, I first want to talk about these goods

796
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 2: and services that will just make everything okay. If things

797
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:27,760
Speaker 2: are not okay in your life, you could consider listening

798
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,319
Speaker 2: to these ads and thinking, actually, my life seemed better

799
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 2: before I listened to the ads. I really was just

800
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 2: like taking it for granted that I wasn't listening to ads,

801
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:38,280
Speaker 2: and then when they end, you'll feel so much better.

802
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 2: It's actually good for you to listen to these ads.

803
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 2: That's what I'm trying to say. And we're back, all right.

804
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 2: The two things that indie media did change the world,

805
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 2: besides the actual direct impact on protests, anyone can be

806
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 2: a journalist, and that the Internet can be status updates

807
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 2: instead of static pages. It's so funny to me that

808
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 2: this technical innovation is its like longest standing impact.

809
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, it almost feels like the fossil that it left behind.

810
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. But it also because you have the status

811
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 2: update things, it means that the we we kind of

812
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 2: talked about this earlier, a ragtag group of anarchists and

813
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:21,320
Speaker 2: radicals were some of the first people that have to

814
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 2: sit around to be like, what the fuck do we

815
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 2: do with all these trolls and Nazis and fake news

816
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 2: and conspiracy theories and shit.

817
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 4: Makes perfect sense, honestly. Yeah, And to deal with that

818
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,399
Speaker 4: question of like providing a sandbox for people and then

819
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 4: having to get them to behave Yeah, totally, totally, and

820
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 4: also to behave while breaking the rules. Yeah, right, to

821
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,799
Speaker 4: like instituting rules on people who have come together for

822
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 4: the sake of not having rules exactly. Yeah, it's a

823
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 4: tricky one.

824
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

825
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 4: And it does feel like, I mean, you're talking about

826
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 4: being involved in this as like a young person, and

827
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,479
Speaker 4: it does feel like a frequently kind of like young

828
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 4: person experience of like, oh, this is why societies are

829
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 4: hard to run.

830
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Absolutely. I feel like one of the things that's

831
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,720
Speaker 2: like aging with my politics is tempered about my politics

832
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 2: is understanding that even some of the things that I'm against,

833
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 2: I can see why some of those things were created.

834
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, you know, like all these single use plastics. Yeah,

835
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 4: you know, or like I feel like we maybe have

836
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 4: this in common where like when you're like a Mason

837
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,760
Speaker 4: jar millennial, or you save all your old spaghetti sauce

838
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 4: jars and you repurpose them and it's great, but then

839
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 4: one of them breaks. I had like a week where

840
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 4: I broke like two glass jars, and I was like, Oh,

841
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 4: this is why we invented plastic, because this is like dangerous.

842
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 1: Actually I had this same experience. There was like a

843
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,320
Speaker 1: week and a half where I broke glass at least

844
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: six or eight times, and I was like.

845
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 2: It really breakable.

846
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,720
Speaker 1: I was like, what in the world.

847
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 4: Sophie, Yeah, like celebrity deaths. And then you're like, oh, plastic,

848
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 4: if only I had a version of this that was

849
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 4: softer and lighter and less likely to cut.

850
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 2: Meny and like, yeah, you get why certain things were done.

851
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 2: And sometimes things were done because it's like cheaper and

852
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,279
Speaker 2: they just want to exploit people. And sometimes things are

853
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:21,399
Speaker 2: done for like more complicated or nuanced reasons and still

854
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 2: might make things that are bad and need to be

855
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 2: changed about society. But it's like you see where they are,

856
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:26,360
Speaker 2: you know, and.

857
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 4: Right, some things are nice, yeah, you know, the tied

858
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 4: hygienic clean laundry pods are nice.

859
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. And so people had to do their own content

860
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 2: moderation and had to learn where limits are, and like

861
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 2: have complicated conversations about free speech, right, And you know

862
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 2: what is the difference between free speech and platforming? Right?

863
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 2: Because you're like, well, I'm not saying that it should

864
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 2: be illegal to have said what you said, and I'm

865
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 2: not going to put you in jail, but I am

866
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 2: the publisher of this website, and I don't want to

867
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 2: publish it, you know, and.

868
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 4: We are no longer just like and I'm human, individual citizens,

869
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 4: but like I am in a position of power, and

870
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 4: I have to decide whether or not to share that

871
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 4: power with you totally.

872
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 2: And what's awful is it's also kind of addictive even

873
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 2: among anti authoritarian people once you give them a little

874
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 2: bit of power. Like the moderators we got kind of

875
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 2: high on it. You know, we're like, oh, well, we're

876
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 2: the ones who decide what gets to go in you know,

877
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,280
Speaker 2: the ring of power is I am the law. Yeah, yeah, exactly,

878
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:29,760
Speaker 2: And I'll be honest. Overall, indie media websites were better

879
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 2: at shutting down trolls and Nazis than they were at

880
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 2: shutting down conspiracy theorists, because that is a problem that

881
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 2: is without a political ideology. That is a problem that

882
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:46,800
Speaker 2: you will find everywhere. There was plenty of chemtrails content

883
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 2: on Portland indie media, for example. Yeah. So yeah, there's

884
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 2: some problems with conspiracy theorists within indie media and people

885
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 2: being very certain that their position on a particular like

886
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 2: global political thing is absolutely right and all of the

887
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 2: other ones are wrong and impressive, which is sometimes true.

888
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:05,799
Speaker 2: It's just hard to know.

889
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 4: It feels very human to want to find the one

890
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 4: thing that unlocks everything else, and this idea of like

891
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 4: it's this one conspiracy by this one group of scary guys,

892
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 4: and you know, like sometimes there are conspiracies. But the

893
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 4: thing is that, you know, people who are conspiring tend

894
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 4: to do so in a way that is, if not legal,

895
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 4: then like you know, is enshrined within the protections that

896
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 4: a corporation has or done by people who are you know,

897
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 4: running a government because they were actually elected to it

898
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:41,320
Speaker 4: or at least to a lot of business with people

899
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,799
Speaker 4: who were rather than having a cabal inside of you know,

900
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:49,840
Speaker 4: some kind of architecturally specific impressive object.

901
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 2: It's like, we know who influences the political figures. They're

902
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 2: called lobbyists. The industry's lobbyists, Yeah, constantly, and impact our

903
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 2: politics constantly.

904
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:01,319
Speaker 4: There's kind of a paper trail, but nobody wants to

905
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,240
Speaker 4: do anything about it. You know, it's not like a secret.

906
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 2: Right, And then when like, oh, everyone's secretly a pedophile,

907
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 2: we're like, yes, we all have seen about Epstein. You know,

908
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 2: like the conspiracies aren't what people think they are.

909
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,879
Speaker 4: And it feels like people now of this spent are

910
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 4: like everyone's secretly a pedophile except Epstein.

911
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 2: And it's like, wait, what, I can't totally except the pedophile.

912
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,919
Speaker 4: It was fine, It's like you guys need to take

913
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 4: pedophile recognizing classes, I would think, because this idea of you.

914
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 2: Know, yeah, okay, so indie media didn't collapse because of

915
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 2: content moderation. It didn't collapse because of government repression. It

916
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 2: was just rendered obsolete by itself. Indie media now in place,

917
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:40,800
Speaker 2: you have all of these you know, early aughts, you

918
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 2: have all these anarchisttackers trying to figure out all kinds

919
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,760
Speaker 2: of communication methods and changing the way the Internet works.

920
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 2: And the next development that comes along is called text

921
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 2: Mob txt mob. When the Democratic National Convention came to

922
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 2: Boston in two thousand and four, people were like, all right,

923
00:46:58,120 --> 00:46:59,839
Speaker 2: how do we get all these various groups of people

924
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,919
Speaker 2: streets to coordinate with one another, to outflank police and

925
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 2: do all of this in a decentralized way. And so

926
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 2: the answer was this program, not an app because there's

927
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 2: not smartphones, called text Mob. It was developed by an

928
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,399
Speaker 2: MIT student and then someone from an anarchist think tank

929
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,720
Speaker 2: called the Institute for Applied Autonomy. This is a group

930
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 2: texting platform that worked on dumb phones and let people

931
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 2: text groups and share information. And they developed all kinds

932
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 2: of technical shit behind it. For example, at the time

933
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 2: like text would be free if they were like converted

934
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 2: to email, right, and.

935
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 4: God, I remember this, yeah yeah.

936
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 2: And so someone built a server where you could send

937
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 2: an email to it and it would convert it to

938
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 2: a text and send it out. But it couldn't be

939
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 2: just one computer because it would get flagged as spam

940
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 2: by the mail carrier. So Indie media stepped up to

941
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 2: be willing to kind of like become a botnet for

942
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 2: its own users, where basically, like if you logged into

943
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 2: indie media, your computer would open it visible window, and

944
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 2: your computer would be taking the emails and turning them

945
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 2: into texts and sending them out. I love that, and

946
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,800
Speaker 2: it decentralized itself to get around restriction. During the Republican

947
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 2: National Convention in two thousand and four in New York City,

948
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 2: about four thousand protesters were using text mob. I was there,

949
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 2: but I sure didn't have a cell phone then, and

950
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 2: so I did not use it. Eventually, T Mobile shut

951
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 2: down their entire phone system in New York rather than

952
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 2: let protesters use their network to evade police. Yeah, and

953
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 2: text mob kept being refined. In two thousand and five,

954
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 2: there was this big immigrant strike on May Day and

955
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 2: text mob provided communications. And you can see how all

956
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 2: of this is sort of going to lead to Twitter, right,

957
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,720
Speaker 2: Like this idea of people doing status.

958
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 4: Updates, right, I like trying to send a few sentences

959
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 4: worth of information to a few hundred people.

960
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, you can even see the character limits are

961
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:02,359
Speaker 2: in some ways coming from that.

962
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:03,800
Speaker 4: Like early texts.

963
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, because in.

964
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 4: Early text children there was a character limit, remember.

965
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:11,840
Speaker 2: Yeah totally, yeah and yeah. It would get split up

966
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 2: into multiple texts and.

967
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,759
Speaker 4: The worst was having to text. This is what holds

968
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 4: me back from getting a flip phone is the memory

969
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 4: of having to text by like to get the letter CEO,

970
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 4: had to press the number one three times to get

971
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 4: to see you know, and then it would just take forever.

972
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:26,240
Speaker 4: And it was like feeding Atamagashi.

973
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 2: Watching the people who were fast at it was like

974
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 2: the first time I felt old when I was like, yeah,

975
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 2: twenty four. Well, it was like watching like a court

976
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 2: stenographer or something. Yeah, totally. So they're not just conceptually

977
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 2: linked in the media and text mob and Twitter. It

978
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:45,720
Speaker 2: is more direct. There was this new podcast startup, Odio,

979
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 2: and it was trying to democratize access to media and

980
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,440
Speaker 2: it was inspired by indie media, and so they hired

981
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 2: indie media text to work at odio.

982
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 4: Isn't that like the first person press of like Spanish

983
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 4: for to hate. I don't know it's odeo. I think

984
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 4: this one has an eye. I don't know this is

985
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 4: Spanish one o one come, but anyway, somebody knows.

986
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 2: Go on. I'm sorry, no, it's all right. And one

987
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 2: of the people who got hired at Odio was the

988
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 2: guy Rabble that I talked about earlier, and he's an

989
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 2: indie media founder and soon enough he's looking to hire

990
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 2: at Odio. So first he tries to hire this anarchist

991
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 2: moxy Marlin Spike, who later creates the app Signal, but

992
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 2: he doesn't succeed at hiring Moxie. So he hires a

993
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 2: guy named Jack Dorsey who goes on to found Twitter,

994
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 2: who wasn't an indie media person or anything. And this

995
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,400
Speaker 2: is going to end up reversing. Rabble is actually the

996
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 2: first person hired by Twitter, so basically his old boss

997
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 2: is hiring him. Odio is going to do all this

998
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:55,319
Speaker 2: podcast stuff. But then Apple added podcasts to iTunes in

999
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 2: two thousand and five, and so they're like, all right, shit,

1000
00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:00,360
Speaker 2: we gotta do something different. And so they're like, all right, well,

1001
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 2: what are we going to do? They created Twitter in

1002
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 2: two thousand and six, with indi media people building a

1003
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 2: ton of the infrastructure like Blaine Cook, who is the

1004
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 2: lead technical architect of Twitter for a long time or

1005
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 2: of the beginning. Originally Twitter was a bit more open source.

1006
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 2: It would let other programs interact with it, with APIs

1007
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 2: and some of its anarchist employees who were like some

1008
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 2: of the architects of it, pitched a decentralized version of

1009
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 2: Twitter before its launch, which would have been a federated

1010
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 2: system instead of a centralized system. This is kind of

1011
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,360
Speaker 2: a little bit over my own head, but like I

1012
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 2: kind of understand it. And according to that famous lefty

1013
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 2: rag Forbes quote, if launched on Groundhog Day two thousand

1014
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 2: and eight, when it was completed, that federation would have

1015
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:53,840
Speaker 2: prevented Trump from obtaining such a powerful megaphone in the

1016
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:57,240
Speaker 2: first place by giving users more control over their network,

1017
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 2: and it would have away some of the method by

1018
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:07,279
Speaker 2: which powerful right wing or honestly just anyone saying weird

1019
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 2: fake shit would have been able to access this network.

1020
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:13,319
Speaker 2: It also goes on to say that it also would

1021
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 2: have removed the ability to ban Trump, or it would

1022
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:17,319
Speaker 2: have made ways to get around it in other ways

1023
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 2: or whatever. But someone else who worked at I believe

1024
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 2: worked at Twitter at this time, named Mark Attwood wrote quote,

1025
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:25,839
Speaker 2: if this had taken off and it had worked, there

1026
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:28,359
Speaker 2: would not have been a Zuckerberg. There would not have

1027
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 2: been a Jack. We would live in a fundamentally different

1028
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 2: world now. It So it's this one moment where like

1029
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:37,719
Speaker 2: three fucking I don't know how many people there where

1030
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 2: there's a picture and the picture of the like whiteboard

1031
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 2: with the like two programmers standing in front of a

1032
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 2: whiteboard describing the federated thing, and then the photographers credited.

1033
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 2: So there's only three people I know about who are

1034
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 2: in that room. And if it had gone differently, everything

1035
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 2: geopolitically would be This is just like a I mean,

1036
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:57,840
Speaker 2: it's a butterfly moment, right, It's a butterfly flappiness wing moment,

1037
00:52:57,840 --> 00:52:59,839
Speaker 2: and I'm like fascinated by it.

1038
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:02,839
Speaker 4: There was a trend on tictok a few weeks ago

1039
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 4: about like the butterfly effect. If I hadn't gone to

1040
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:07,400
Speaker 4: this college, I wouldn't have met my boyfriend and we

1041
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 4: wouldn't be sitting in a rowboat right now. And it's like, okay,

1042
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 4: but like that term means that, like, you know, a

1043
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:17,360
Speaker 4: butterfly flaps its wings here and there's a monsoon in

1044
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 4: Sri Lanka or whatever. Right, it's chaos theory. It's the

1045
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:26,720
Speaker 4: idea that like we can't imagine how much seemingly insignificant

1046
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 4: activities or how the outcome of something down the line

1047
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:34,239
Speaker 4: is completely impossible to imagine, whereas if you're choosing a

1048
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 4: college to go to, you kind of know that a

1049
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:37,959
Speaker 4: lot of how your life is going to go after

1050
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 4: that hinges on, right the choice you make, which I get,

1051
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:45,280
Speaker 4: I realize, is me being maybe like unnecessarily school marmish.

1052
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 2: I mean the strangers on the internet, but I.

1053
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 4: Care about them. I want them to have the pleasure

1054
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 4: of being correct.

1055
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:58,719
Speaker 2: That is the best Yeah, totally, Uh, the school arm

1056
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:02,360
Speaker 2: that's working for you, you know, yeah, yeah, because like

1057
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:05,440
Speaker 2: if you went to a different school and it caused

1058
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 2: or stopped a genocide, that.

1059
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 4: Would be the same scale, right. Or it's like, you know,

1060
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 4: imagine if I hadn't eaten that chocolate chip cookie that

1061
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 4: sent me to the er where I met my best

1062
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 4: friend in the waiting room. Like that's a real butterfly

1063
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:23,880
Speaker 4: effect thing where you're like, wow, you don't realize how

1064
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,799
Speaker 4: big the seemingly little things can become, which I feel

1065
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,239
Speaker 4: like is what you're talking about here, where it's like, well,

1066
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 4: it's just apps, like who cares? And it's like, yeah,

1067
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:34,880
Speaker 4: but these apps are going to shape how people communicate

1068
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:37,400
Speaker 4: and therefore what gets communicated.

1069
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:39,399
Speaker 2: And we can point to specific things around it. Right

1070
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 2: if there hadn't been a Zuckerbe in these moments in time. Yeah,

1071
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:46,759
Speaker 2: so Twitter ended up doing what Twitter ended up doing,

1072
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:48,880
Speaker 2: and it was still pretty useful for a long time.

1073
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 2: It was famous at first for its ability to allow

1074
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:56,240
Speaker 2: protesters to out maneuver police. Right. The first person arrested

1075
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 2: for tweeting in the US was accused of using the

1076
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 2: service to announce the location of police to protesters in

1077
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:05,320
Speaker 2: Pittsburgh at an anti G eight demonstration in two thousand

1078
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 2: and nine, and like basically, yeah, there was like people

1079
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:12,680
Speaker 2: kind of go Pittsburgh, I know, I know, right, and

1080
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:17,239
Speaker 2: the cops rated a hotel room and like grabbed computers,

1081
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:20,640
Speaker 2: and we're going to accuse this person of like coordinating

1082
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 2: everything by using Twitter. Thank god. That protest is actually

1083
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:27,319
Speaker 2: why I joined Twitter. I wanted to look at a

1084
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:28,960
Speaker 2: phone and learn where the cops were.

1085
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:31,399
Speaker 1: Oh shit, so cool.

1086
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, there you go, that's the future working for you.

1087
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:35,840
Speaker 2: I know. I was really sad when I finally like

1088
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:38,800
Speaker 2: actually deleted my Twitter because it's just not Twitter anymore.

1089
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:42,279
Speaker 2: It's just actually gone. And it was like joined two

1090
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 2: thousand and nine a.

1091
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:44,799
Speaker 4: Place where cops can find you.

1092
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. This use case of people using it to

1093
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 2: organize demonstrations is of course more famous with Arab spring.

1094
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 2: To quote Harry Halpin and rabble again from a paper

1095
00:55:57,080 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 2: I quoted a while ago. Quote the tools that have

1096
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:04,239
Speaker 2: been pioneered by a relatively small amount of protesters as

1097
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 2: part of the anti globalization movement were now able to

1098
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:10,120
Speaker 2: be used by everyone, including those in the global South

1099
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 2: that needed the most, having more important things to tweet

1100
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:16,920
Speaker 2: about than even Twitter expected. And then you know, in

1101
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:19,960
Speaker 2: twenty twenty, Jack Dorsey band Trump from Twitter, so Elon

1102
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 2: Musk bought Twitter, and now it's a fucking nightmare, massive

1103
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:25,040
Speaker 2: grifters and ai slop like the rest of social media,

1104
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 2: but in this case it's run by a literal cicale Nazi.

1105
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:33,280
Speaker 4: But newspapers dot com it's still fun, just for fun.

1106
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:36,120
Speaker 2: The way to go from indie media to podcasting is

1107
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 2: that podcasting is a combination of two things, the ability

1108
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:42,200
Speaker 2: to upload an MP three file and the ability to

1109
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:45,440
Speaker 2: have that get sent out over an RSS feed, a

1110
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 2: technology first explored by indie media. Weha, thank you daddy. Yeah,

1111
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:55,880
Speaker 2: I know right, I'm like the weird smaller butterfly effect

1112
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 2: is like, and that's how I feed my dog every day.

1113
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:02,520
Speaker 4: Literally right, And also that if you're like a right

1114
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:05,799
Speaker 4: wing podcast or the joke's on you because what you're

1115
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:10,400
Speaker 4: doing only exists because of protest movements that drove the

1116
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:13,280
Speaker 4: need for that technology in order for it to get developed.

1117
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. And that's how a bunch of rabble, including

1118
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 2: a guy named Rabble, reinvented the Internet, and then how

1119
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 2: capitalism and fascism have tried really hard to recuperate it,

1120
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 2: and everything's a mess. And you can't say a technology

1121
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 2: in this case is inherently good or bad, but people

1122
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 2: sure used it for good and are using it for bad.

1123
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 4: Yeah. You know, what I was thinking the other day

1124
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:38,560
Speaker 4: was that, like, people will just always shock you both ways,

1125
00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:42,760
Speaker 4: and that's kind of the constant, is that, like people

1126
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 4: will always shock you with how awful they can be,

1127
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 4: and they'll also always shock you with how amazing and

1128
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 4: resourceful and kind they can be, and you just have

1129
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 4: to prepare to be shocked all the time.

1130
00:57:56,560 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, that's my story I got for you. I

1131
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:03,880
Speaker 2: loved it how our job is because of this.

1132
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:08,560
Speaker 4: Podcasts are it's such a funny journey of technology, right,

1133
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:14,160
Speaker 4: because I remember when podcasts seemed like something for weird people.

1134
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 4: To be weird on right, where like this kind of

1135
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 4: lineage felt more baked into the way people saw them.

1136
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:24,560
Speaker 4: And now over time they've become like, you know something

1137
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 4: where corporations and advertisers and people trying to you know,

1138
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 4: continue their careers see a lot of money and a

1139
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 4: lot of potential for all of the sort of sexy

1140
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 4: mainstream media accouterments that they originally had nothing to do with. Basically,

1141
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 4: it's such a funny thing to see something that technically

1142
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:50,520
Speaker 4: is just like a medium for information, like go through

1143
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:55,760
Speaker 4: several phases of life and we'll just keep talking and

1144
00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:56,920
Speaker 4: keep seeing what happens.

1145
00:58:57,240 --> 00:58:59,800
Speaker 2: No, totally, and it's like, I find it really interesting

1146
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:03,200
Speaker 2: that both things still exist. In podcasting, you.

1147
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:06,600
Speaker 4: Know, right, there's still so much counterculture and podcasting.

1148
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 2: I work on this podcast and I work on a

1149
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 2: DIY podcast called Live Like the World Is Dying. You know,

1150
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:16,320
Speaker 2: both reach people, and they reach people in different ways,

1151
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:19,080
Speaker 2: and it is kind of interesting because it's still I

1152
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 2: guess it's like when you democratize media, that doesn't kick

1153
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:27,600
Speaker 2: out mainstream media, it just makes it accessible to other

1154
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 2: people as well, and then it becomes a question of

1155
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 2: like who can get ears, you know, and it's easier

1156
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 2: to get ears with an institutional power behind you, you.

1157
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 4: Know, yeah, or with just kind of like the support

1158
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:44,440
Speaker 4: that offers or the promise that it will, you know,

1159
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 4: be something that people can connect to something else that

1160
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 4: they like or something they already know. But it's also

1161
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 4: just I don't know, is the fact that there is

1162
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 4: still space for people to just try stuff out, or

1163
00:59:56,960 --> 01:00:01,000
Speaker 4: that the barrier to entry remains. So oh, I do

1164
01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:03,680
Speaker 4: love that because we really did lose Twitter, like that

1165
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:05,920
Speaker 4: was a place where we used to get to exist

1166
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:08,280
Speaker 4: and that place is gone now. But there's still so

1167
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:10,360
Speaker 4: much space in podcasts.

1168
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:12,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, is that all the past is a different country thing?

1169
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:15,800
Speaker 2: You know, it's just different. That is not the world

1170
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:17,560
Speaker 2: we live in anymore as the world of our Twitter

1171
01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:21,160
Speaker 2: or whatever. Well, if people want to hear your podcast

1172
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:23,640
Speaker 2: or hear anything else you do, how can they do that?

1173
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, you can listen to your wrong about and I

1174
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:31,200
Speaker 4: mean I think you can find it anywhere you get podcasts.

1175
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:34,280
Speaker 4: Maybe there's a place where you get podcasts that doesn't

1176
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:36,880
Speaker 4: have it, But then I don't know, I can't help

1177
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:38,840
Speaker 4: you with that. You can figure it out, but yeah,

1178
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:44,520
Speaker 4: listen to it. We talk about recent history and you know,

1179
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:46,160
Speaker 4: a lot of what you and I are talking about

1180
01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:50,200
Speaker 4: today just people trying to do good in the world

1181
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:54,480
Speaker 4: despite overwhelming odds, and people getting in trouble and people

1182
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:56,880
Speaker 4: making bad choices. But when you think about what they've

1183
01:00:56,920 --> 01:00:58,680
Speaker 4: been through, maybe it kind of makes sense that they

1184
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 4: thought that was a good idea at the time. Yeah,

1185
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:06,400
Speaker 4: and I'm just so happy to be here and thank

1186
01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 4: you again for having me on. What an amazing I

1187
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:11,800
Speaker 4: don't know. I love to meet the cool people with you.

1188
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 4: Thanks you for letting me do it.

1189
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:17,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, You're welcome on anytime. If I have anything to plug,

1190
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:19,840
Speaker 2: I would say I want to plug that getting in

1191
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:23,880
Speaker 2: trouble is a fake idea, and that everyone should take

1192
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:26,920
Speaker 2: their own risk analysis into consideration, and that there's an

1193
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:30,560
Speaker 2: entire gulf between what's the law and what's right and

1194
01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:33,320
Speaker 2: people should try and figure out what's right and then

1195
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:38,480
Speaker 2: make their own risk assessments around that. And Sophie, you

1196
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:39,479
Speaker 2: got anything you want to plug?

1197
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:43,280
Speaker 1: Where sunscreen, pet a dog or if they want you

1198
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:47,480
Speaker 1: to pet them cool zonemedia dot com.

1199
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:51,560
Speaker 4: Corn we're sunscreen on your eyelids too. Don't figure out

1200
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:54,000
Speaker 4: your eyelids and the and your feet. Don't forget your.

1201
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 1: Feet and your ears.

1202
01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:57,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't put sunscreen any of those places. I

1203
01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:01,320
Speaker 2: will have to address how I do this. It probably

1204
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:04,080
Speaker 2: goes on my eyelids because I wear moisturizers the way

1205
01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:06,920
Speaker 2: I do my soundstaf. You know, my face. No one

1206
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 2: ever gets at one hundred percent, but we keep trying.

1207
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:10,240
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1208
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 1: And if you are like, well I wear sunscreen, that's

1209
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:14,880
Speaker 1: in my makeup. You're not wearing enough sunscreen.

1210
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:19,760
Speaker 2: Good to know. Yeah, all right, Well, talk to you

1211
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:20,360
Speaker 2: all next week.

1212
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 3: They Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production

1213
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:28,800
Speaker 3: of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts on cool Zone Media,

1214
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:32,160
Speaker 3: visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out

1215
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:35,160
Speaker 3: on the iHeartRadio app I'm a Podcast, or wherever

1216
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 2: You get your podcasts.