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Speaker 1: restrictions apply. Hey everyone, it's carvel And before we get
Speaker 1: into this episode, I want to ask you a favor.
Speaker 1: Throughout this series, we've talked a lot about how Fred
Speaker 1: Rogers has helped show us how to make the world
Speaker 1: a kinder place, a better place. But now we want
Speaker 1: to hear from you. We want to hear a story
Speaker 1: about when someone in your life showed you what it
Speaker 1: means to be a helper. Maybe it's someone in your family,
Speaker 1: or someone in your community, or someone that you haven't
Speaker 1: seen since you worry kid, but that you still think
Speaker 1: about something They did to help you, whoever they are,
Speaker 1: wherever they are, however they're helping, we want to hear
Speaker 1: about it. So give us a call at three three
Speaker 1: six five five zero five to nine. Again, that's three
Speaker 1: three six five one five zero five to nine, and
Speaker 1: tell us a story about someone who has shown you
Speaker 1: how to be a helper and we might just play
Speaker 1: it on an upcoming episode. Again that number is three
Speaker 1: three six five one five zero five two nine. Or
Speaker 1: you can tweet your story with the hashtag finding Fred. Okay,
Speaker 1: now let's start the show. Here's a question, did Fred
Speaker 1: Rogers do enough? By He had lived and breathed children's
Speaker 1: television for more than twenty years. He had found kid
Speaker 1: friendly ways to cover death and to sat nation and segregation,
Speaker 1: but also haircuts and doctors visits and moving to a
Speaker 1: new home. And he felt like he'd done enough. He
Speaker 1: felt that he created a library of television visits that
Speaker 1: covered everything a child needed to know about growing up.
Speaker 1: So Mr Rogers decided he was done. In a week
Speaker 1: of episodes slated to be his last, Mr Rogers takes
Speaker 1: us out to his garage, where he shows us a
Speaker 1: big cabinet filled with dozens and dozens of VHS tapes,
Speaker 1: all neatly lined up in rows. You see, those are
Speaker 1: all different visits, television visits that we have on tape,
Speaker 1: share this one. Just as he's about to pop one
Speaker 1: of these tapes into the VCR, Mr McFeeley stops by
Speaker 1: and the two get to talking about how McFeeley has
Speaker 1: changed since his earliest visits to the neighborhood. Huh, I
Speaker 1: remember the days when it was very, very hard for
Speaker 1: you to sit still, Mr mcpheeley. Well, I used to
Speaker 1: talk louder then and talk faster. I'll show you a
Speaker 1: tape on that machine over there and see if you
Speaker 1: remember that visit. I'd like to see that visit. You know,
Speaker 1: my video tape machine over here. See if you remember
Speaker 1: this time when you came to visit me already. Fred
Speaker 1: plays the tape and the two watch what is essentially
Speaker 1: a rerun of a Mr. Rogers Neighborhood segment from a
Speaker 1: few years before. Then, Fred explains, we'll be seeing a
Speaker 1: lot of reruns from now on. Well, next week we'll
Speaker 1: start to show all of these visits so everybody can
Speaker 1: see them the whole way through. Well, I'll look forward
Speaker 1: to that. And with that Mr Rogers signed off, I'm
Speaker 1: Carla Wallace and this is Finding Fred, a podcast about
Speaker 1: Fred Rogers from I Heeart Media and Fatherly in partnership
Speaker 1: with transmit Or Media. Fred Rogers felt like he'd done enough.
Speaker 1: He created an encyclopedia of programs that anticipated the questions
Speaker 1: and anxieties that children have as they grow and learn, like,
Speaker 1: for instance, getting poked and prodded or stuck with a needle.
Speaker 1: Over the years, Fred had made several visits to optometrists,
Speaker 1: barber's doctors. Producer Arthur Greenwald worked with Fred in a
Speaker 1: series of episodes about going to the hospital. He had
Speaker 1: a long time interest in how children are frightened or
Speaker 1: overwhelmed by hospitalization. You know, I was really struck by
Speaker 1: There was this moment where he was talking about X rays.
Speaker 1: He was talking with the physician about X rays and
Speaker 1: the physician was explaining, well, you can we can see
Speaker 1: your bones, and then Fred said, I know some children
Speaker 1: who will wonder if if you can see my bones,
Speaker 1: can you excre my head and see my thoughts? If
Speaker 1: you can see the inside of a hand with X ray,
Speaker 1: could you see the inside of somebody's head and know
Speaker 1: what that person is thinking, No, uh, the X ray
Speaker 1: picture won't show thoughts feelings. Those are things that we
Speaker 1: really can't see a touch. Our thoughts are very own.
Speaker 1: All thoughts are our own. That's good to know. When
Speaker 1: I watched that, I laughed out loud because he was
Speaker 1: a grown man, And but it wasn't like silly. It
Speaker 1: was like kind of phenomenal and magical that he was
Speaker 1: able to capture a very specific, very clear thought of
Speaker 1: a child that was important. And of course some people
Speaker 1: look at you like you're insane, But who said anything
Speaker 1: about an X ray seeing my thoughts and feelings? But
Speaker 1: by god, that is exactly what a preschool was thinking.
Speaker 1: Fred was always working to eliminate misunderstandings, and that was
Speaker 1: a real gift for television audience of toddlers who weren't
Speaker 1: necessary really used to being seen and heard and responded to.
Speaker 1: But this kind of deep focused listening made adults uncomfortable
Speaker 1: because they're socially just not used to people paying attention
Speaker 1: to their every word, and so a lot of the
Speaker 1: things will casually say as a passing joke, Fred would
Speaker 1: pause an interpret it out loud, which would be either
Speaker 1: illuminating or embarrassing, depending on you know how comfortable you
Speaker 1: are with that sort of conversation. It seems like Fred
Speaker 1: was betting on most people being comfortable with that kind
Speaker 1: of thing, because when he left Mr Rogers neighborhood, he
Speaker 1: set out to make a new television program for adults.
Speaker 1: He developed a new show with PBS called Old Friends,
Speaker 1: New Friends. It featured Fred talking with other adults about
Speaker 1: what they're passionate about and where their inspiration comes from.
Speaker 1: That's what he was interested in. This is TV critic
Speaker 1: David b and Cooley. It's like, if you're a musician,
Speaker 1: where does the music come from? You know, what was
Speaker 1: it like that made you become a musician and sort
Speaker 1: of get to the bottom of what what is art
Speaker 1: and what is an artist. The show was documentary style.
Speaker 1: Fred visited different locations around the country. He talked to
Speaker 1: famous and not so famous people about their lives and
Speaker 1: showed them at work. Pittsburgh baseball legend Willie Stargel opened
Speaker 1: up about resilience. Comedian Milton Burrow talked about the rewards
Speaker 1: of fame. Fred visited Robert Frost's daughter and NPR hosts
Speaker 1: Susan Stamberg. Old Friends, New Friends was conversational warm, and
Speaker 1: because this was still Fred Rogers after all, it was slow.
Speaker 1: Responses to the show were mixed. I saw them and
Speaker 1: and I loved what he was doing with them, but
Speaker 1: you have to you have to be open to it
Speaker 1: and be interested. Not everybody loved it. Fred's biographer Max
Speaker 1: King told me he didn't think it was very good.
Speaker 1: I watched a lot of it. It's not particularly compelling.
Speaker 1: The approach that he brought to children's television just didn't
Speaker 1: translate to adult television. Betsy Siemens had worked with Fred
Speaker 1: and Mr Rogers Neighborhood. She later helped produce episodes of
Speaker 1: Old Friends, New Friends. The idea that he was going
Speaker 1: to quit doing the Neighborhood, I thought, good for you,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I I found like people move on.
Speaker 1: I mean, I I think I think I was aware
Speaker 1: that it was hard for him because he had been
Speaker 1: doing this other work for so long, and I think,
Speaker 1: you know, it's hard to just really switch gears and
Speaker 1: work for a completely different audience and in a in
Speaker 1: a really profoundly different medium. The show featured extreme close
Speaker 1: ups of people's faces, long silent pauses, deep reflection on
Speaker 1: family history, reason, and many of Fred's signature moves, slow pacing,
Speaker 1: intimate production, emphasis, and emotions, but these didn't necessarily translate
Speaker 1: for most grown ups. Fred's show was illuminating, but many
Speaker 1: viewers found the intimacy embarrassing or even worse on TV boring.
Speaker 1: One New York Times critic wrote that for some viewers,
Speaker 1: This Quiet Man may appear to have taken one volume
Speaker 1: too many. But I watched it the only episode you
Speaker 1: can really find online an interview with concert pianist Lauren Hollander,
Speaker 1: and honestly, I found it brilliant. The intimacy, the patient's
Speaker 1: Fred's willingness to hover over difficult topics with sometimes difficult
Speaker 1: people was transfixing. You're the only pianist who has ever
Speaker 1: communicated to me the feeling that this instrument as a place,
Speaker 1: that it is a country, that it's somewhere that you
Speaker 1: go to say something. And I've felt that today. Poor Beethoven,
Speaker 1: the throwes of his deafness, kept a little chimber pot
Speaker 1: under the keyboard, and he used to keep his head
Speaker 1: pressed here against the wood, and could not leave the
Speaker 1: instrument long enough to take care of his needs. And
Speaker 1: we who grow up here know that it's an answer,
Speaker 1: because it's a way of dealing with that incredibly complex reality.
Speaker 1: When I heard that, it occurred to me that maybe
Speaker 1: that is the case for Fred to that he was
Speaker 1: like Beethoven or Lauren Hollander, and that in a sense,
Speaker 1: the precision and love and kindness of Mr Rogers neighborhood
Speaker 1: was his place, his country where he could deal with
Speaker 1: the incredibly complex reality. And he got to go back
Speaker 1: there when he returned to Mr Rogers neighborhood. More than
Speaker 1: that after a break, teething can be a real nightmare
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Speaker 1: A and d S dot com slash kind claims based
Speaker 1: on traditional homeopath a practices, not accept the medical evidence,
Speaker 1: not ft evaluated. Stimulant use disorder is a disease not
Speaker 1: a choice, but getting help for your math CK cocaine
Speaker 1: addiction is Choose treatment and choose Change California. Find proven
Speaker 1: treatment options at choose Change see a dot org. He
Speaker 1: loves me, he loves me not? He loves me, he
Speaker 1: loves me not. He loves me not. So he returned
Speaker 1: me because he had thirty days to do so, which
Speaker 1: is plenty of time to discover you don't love someone
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Speaker 1: car who is now back on the market thirty day
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Speaker 1: see Carmacks dot com for details. In Fred Rod just
Speaker 1: wrote himself a note. It's typed neatly on a piece
Speaker 1: of yellow legal paper, the kind Fred used for early
Speaker 1: drafts of his scripts. Am I kidding myself that I'm
Speaker 1: able to write a script again? He wrote? Why don't
Speaker 1: I trust myself? He continues, after all these years, it's
Speaker 1: just as bad as ever. Oh well, the hour cometh
Speaker 1: and now is when I've got to do it. Get
Speaker 1: to it, Fred. Just a few weeks prior, a four
Speaker 1: year old boy named Charles Green died after jumping from
Speaker 1: his grandmother's seventh story apartment in Brooklyn. His mother told
Speaker 1: reporters he'd been trying to fly like Superman. Fred Rogers
Speaker 1: had already started working on new episode to the Neighborhood Program,
Speaker 1: but he was shaken by the story of little Charles Green.
Speaker 1: The kid was trying desperately to be like a hero
Speaker 1: he saw on screen. When Fred left an Neghborhood Program
Speaker 1: five years earlier, he thought he'd said everything there was
Speaker 1: to say, but the world itself had changed. Daycare was
Speaker 1: now a widespread and normal thing, but clearly a terrifying
Speaker 1: thing to a toddler. And what to say to kids
Speaker 1: about divorce as it became more and more prevalent. Television
Speaker 1: itself had evolved, had become a never silent fixture in
Speaker 1: every home, and there were more channels and programs spraying
Speaker 1: all sorts of violence and fantasy at children. So Fred
Speaker 1: did what he knew how to do best. Remember when
Speaker 1: I was a boy, I used to take a sweater
Speaker 1: and put it around my my shoulders like that, hold
Speaker 1: the arms out like that, and pretend that I was flying. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's go out here. I'll show you what I had.
Speaker 1: A couple of steps there at the porch, and I
Speaker 1: would go like this, but of course I never took off,
Speaker 1: because only birds and bats and bugs can fly. People can't.
Speaker 1: Only birds and bats and bugs can fly. I want
Speaker 1: to sing that with me. Only birds and bats and
Speaker 1: bugs can fly. Sometimes I wish I could fly, but
Speaker 1: only birds and bats and bugs and fly. Fred made
Speaker 1: an entire week of programming about how superheroes aren't real.
Speaker 1: He even visited the Universal Studio sound stage where The
Speaker 1: Incredible Hulk was filmed, and he showed the star looferign
Speaker 1: no putting on and taking off his costume. That's all
Speaker 1: part of his work, all part. And here's the special
Speaker 1: solution that takes the green makeup off. I liked seeing
Speaker 1: the makeup coming off just as well as going on.
Speaker 1: But I was glad to show my television friends that
Speaker 1: because it's important to realize that people just don't change
Speaker 1: shape and change color. That's all just sort of movie business,
Speaker 1: isn't it. It's it's just makeup pretend. Of course, you
Speaker 1: remember the note Fred wrote to himself. A few weeks later,
Speaker 1: he added a handwritten PS. It wasn't easy, but it
Speaker 1: was good. This I must remember. In the sixteen years
Speaker 1: since Fred passed, he's been turned into a TV superhero himself,
Speaker 1: someone who was born with extra powers of intuition and
Speaker 1: communication and self control and love. Fred Rogers wasn't a superhero.
Speaker 1: His biographer told me that Fred himself would be horrified
Speaker 1: that anybody might think he was a saint. But producer
Speaker 1: Margie Whitmer told me that Fred did believe that his
Speaker 1: show mattered. It's hard, I think when you when you
Speaker 1: become famous, there's lots of people who tell you how
Speaker 1: wonderful you are. You know, he had lots of followers.
Speaker 1: You tend to believe that you're making a difference. The
Speaker 1: audience was national, even international. There were enormous lineups to
Speaker 1: meet Mr Rogers when he did public appearances. He was
Speaker 1: Mr Rogers, but the program was bigger than him. I
Speaker 1: just had a letter the other day. It was from
Speaker 1: this woman who said, fourteen years ago, I had a
Speaker 1: baby who was sixteen months old, and I had that
Speaker 1: baby in the backseat of the car and I was
Speaker 1: in such a terrible depression my heart. I didn't even
Speaker 1: know that I had put him back there. And she said,
Speaker 1: I was driving along and I saw this truck coming
Speaker 1: and I thought, I'm just gonna end it all. I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna go straight into the truck because she was desperate.
Speaker 1: And she said, I started turning to the left, and
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, I heard this little voice singing,
Speaker 1: it's a beautiful day in lint it. And she said,
Speaker 1: I veered my car to the right, and I thought
Speaker 1: of life and love. And now it's fourteen years later,
Speaker 1: and I just need to thank you. Well. You know,
Speaker 1: to hear that your works can be used in such
Speaker 1: wonderful ways is a great blessing. When I started interviewing
Speaker 1: people for this project, there were two questions. I asked
Speaker 1: almost everyone who knew Fred, did you think he did enough?
Speaker 1: Do you think Fred thought he did enough? And while
Speaker 1: the responses varied, a lot of people told me the
Speaker 1: same thing. Yes, they think Fred did enough, but he
Speaker 1: always wanted to do more. Fred returned to the Neighborhood
Speaker 1: program in The show ran until two thousand one. He
Speaker 1: kept at it almost three times as long as his
Speaker 1: first run, for decades and for generations of kids. He
Speaker 1: was a voice of comfort, of stability, and of reason.
Speaker 1: He'd made a special episode when Bobby Kennedy was assassinated
Speaker 1: he'd recorded p S A S in the middle of
Speaker 1: the Gulf War. Fred finally retired in two thousand one,
Speaker 1: after nine hundred episodes and thirty years on the air.
Speaker 1: But we don't know if Fred ever actually felt like
Speaker 1: he did enough. We do know that just a few
Speaker 1: weeks later, planes flew into the Twin Towers in New York.
Speaker 1: When nine eleven happened, he was so distraught. I don't
Speaker 1: think that I ever really until that day, I didn't
Speaker 1: think on a real internal level about his mission as
Speaker 1: saving the world. I thought. I think I just thought
Speaker 1: about it in more practical terms, we of helping people
Speaker 1: try and do the best they can. I think it
Speaker 1: really hit home to him when those when the Twin
Speaker 1: Towers got hit that he's not the savior. He can't
Speaker 1: save the world. Some of Fred's producers, including Marky, convinced
Speaker 1: him to send one final message in his office. I
Speaker 1: went up to get him to come down to the
Speaker 1: studio and he was He was a mess. He was said,
Speaker 1: why am I doing these? These aren't going to do
Speaker 1: any good. I said, you have to do them. And
Speaker 1: I said, Fred, people care about you, people listen to you.
Speaker 1: You have got to do these none of us can
Speaker 1: save the road. We can do the best we can do.
Speaker 1: In the p s A Fred recorded after September eleven,
Speaker 1: he repeated his story he'd often told about his mother
Speaker 1: comforting him when he was young. She told him, notice
Speaker 1: the people who are helping during times of crisis. Look
Speaker 1: for the helpers, she said, there's always someone trying to help.
Speaker 1: Look for the helpers has become this sort of stock meme,
Speaker 1: one that gets reposted all over so social media after
Speaker 1: a catastrophe, whether a natural disaster or mass shooting. But
Speaker 1: there's something I want you to notice about Fred's final message.
Speaker 1: Listen closely. Who is he talking to. I'm just so
Speaker 1: proud of all of you who have grown up with us,
Speaker 1: and I know how tough it is some days to
Speaker 1: look with hope and confidence on the months and years ahead.
Speaker 1: But I would like to tell you what I often
Speaker 1: told you when you were much younger. I like you
Speaker 1: just the way you are. And what's more, I'm so
Speaker 1: grateful to you for helping the children in your life
Speaker 1: to know that you'll do everything you can to keep
Speaker 1: them safe and to help them express their feelings in
Speaker 1: ways that will bring healing in many different neighborhoods. It's
Speaker 1: such a good fee linked to know that we're lifelong friends.
Speaker 1: He's talking to us, to the adults in the room.
Speaker 1: His producer, Betsy Siemens says, this is the message of
Speaker 1: friends that we need now. Look for the helper. Was
Speaker 1: advice to children, and we are not children. And I've
Speaker 1: heard a lot of adults saying, oh well, Fred Rogers
Speaker 1: made me feel so much better because he said look
Speaker 1: for the helpers and no, no, that was advice to
Speaker 1: children and that was not advice to the parent. It's
Speaker 1: an interesting distinction though, between the child and the parents
Speaker 1: and the adult. Uh, because the harm that comes to
Speaker 1: many of us in our childhoods. I think this is
Speaker 1: my theory my therapist agrees, is that is that it
Speaker 1: we get frozen in moments in time and we don't
Speaker 1: ever overcome our childhoods in that way, and so we
Speaker 1: constantly have this child in us that is crying out
Speaker 1: for the things that we need as children, crying out
Speaker 1: for safety or for acknowledged manner for because we don't
Speaker 1: get those things as young people. And so I think
Speaker 1: that that may even be we may be experiencing a
Speaker 1: mass level of fact as a country. Maybe it's one
Speaker 1: of my theories. And so when people hear that quote,
Speaker 1: that's the child in them, the unhealed child who's still going,
Speaker 1: oh great, now I know what to do. It's it's
Speaker 1: hard to be an adult, and it's hard to be
Speaker 1: an adult when your own child hasn't been raised. Absolutely, however,
Speaker 1: it is the universal human condition. It's true for all
Speaker 1: of us, and it was true for him, and I
Speaker 1: still think I know that one of the things that
Speaker 1: was very important to him on the program was that
Speaker 1: he always be the adult, the adult who can play
Speaker 1: with children, and I mean he acknowledged all of our
Speaker 1: inner children and his own, but he also understood that
Speaker 1: there comes to time in life when we also have
Speaker 1: to be the adult. And I think that was one
Speaker 1: of the fine points of his work. We're the grown
Speaker 1: ups doing what we can. Doing enough doesn't mean fixing
Speaker 1: a tragedy as massive as nine eleven, but it does
Speaker 1: mean helping. Every one of us has something essential inside
Speaker 1: of us that we can use to help. For Fred,
Speaker 1: that meant sitting at the bedside of a comatose kid,
Speaker 1: or staying on the air for thirty years, helping children
Speaker 1: grow into adults who could help other people. What does
Speaker 1: it mean for you? I think he drove himself very hard,
Speaker 1: and I think his expectations of himself were extraordinary, So
Speaker 1: I would guess that he never thought he did enough.
Speaker 1: Because here's the thing, there is no enough, there is
Speaker 1: no finish line. The problems faced with are so big,
Speaker 1: so many, that no one of us can address them alone.
Speaker 1: It's not easy to keep trying, but it's one good
Speaker 1: way to grow. It's not easy to keep learning, but
Speaker 1: I know that this is so. When you've tried and learned,
Speaker 1: you're bigger inside than you were a day ago. It's
Speaker 1: not easy to keep trying, but it's one way to grow.
Speaker 1: You've got to see every little bit you've got to
Speaker 1: do it. Do it, do it, do it, and when
Speaker 1: you're through, you can know who did it for you
Speaker 1: did it, you did it, You did it. And when
Speaker 1: you've done something that you wanted to do and you've
Speaker 1: done it well, you and get such a good feeling
Speaker 1: from that next time. I think it was the first
Speaker 1: time in my life where I felt seen by an adult,
Speaker 1: like when he got down to my eye level, introduced
Speaker 1: himself and looked me in the eye. Of course, I've
Speaker 1: had adults introduced themselves to me a million times up
Speaker 1: into that point and asked me what my name was.
Speaker 1: But the way that he looked at me, I felt
Speaker 1: like you saw me. Finding Fred is produced by Transmitter Media.
Speaker 1: The team is Dan O'donnald, Jordan Bailey and Maddie Foley.
Speaker 1: Our editor is Sarah Nicks. The executive producer for Transmitter
Speaker 1: Media is Greta Cohne. Executive producers at Fatherly are Simon
Speaker 1: Isaacs and Andrew Berman. Thanks to the team at I
Speaker 1: Heart Media. Fred Rogers interviewed tape courtesy of the Television
Speaker 1: Academy Foundation Interviews. The full interview was available at Television
Speaker 1: Academy dot com slash Interviews. Our show is mixed by
Speaker 1: Rick Kwan, music by Blue Dot Sessions and Alison Layton Brown.
Speaker 1: If you like what you're hearing, rate the show, review
Speaker 1: the show and tell a friend I'm Carvel Wallace. Thanks
Speaker 1: for listening. Teething can be a real nightmare for your
Speaker 1: little ones. Highlands Naturals Baby oral pain relief tablets can
Speaker 1: help ease the pain. It's gentle. Natural active ingredients like
Speaker 1: camemeo and arnica soothe your baby's mouth and gums. Made
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