1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: Yea. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a 2 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:18,799 Speaker 1: weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the 3 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: small decisions we can make to become the best possible 4 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 1: versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford, 5 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or 6 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website 7 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope 8 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it 9 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship 10 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so 11 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: much for joining me for session to ninety two of 12 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: the Therapy for Black Girl Podcast. We'll get right into 13 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: our conversation after word from our sponsors. Well, you've probably 14 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: heard the term quiet quitting when employees stopped going above 15 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: and beyond stick to the minimum requirements. But do you 16 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 1: know about quiet firing. The term is gaining traction on 17 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: social media. The pandemic changed a lot about workplace bore. 18 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: Part of that shift is employees gaining more power in 19 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: the workplace now in terms like quite quitting and quite 20 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 1: firing have entered the conversation quite quitting is what an 21 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: employee pulls back from their duties at work while still 22 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: remaining employee. White firing is sort of the opposite. Within 23 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: the last few months, you might have seen or heard 24 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: the term quiet firing circulating on your local news stations, 25 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: LinkedIn profile, or social media accounts. For those of us 26 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,919 Speaker 1: just coming into the now, quiet firing is a method 27 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 1: used by employers to drive employees to quit on their 28 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: own volition. To discuss quiet firing more at length, I'm 29 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: joined today by Dr Lla F. Washington, an Organizational psychologists 30 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: d I expert and professor of practice at Georgetown University's 31 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 1: McDonald School of Business. In part one of our conversation, 32 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: we discuss how to identify if quiet firing is happening 33 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: in your workplace, the psychological effects of being quietly fired, 34 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: and how biases and a lack of managerial training in 35 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,799 Speaker 1: the workplace impact how managers give critical feedback to employees. 36 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please 37 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: share it on social media with us using the hashtag 38 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: TBG in session or join us in the assister circles 39 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: to talk more about the episode. You can join the 40 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: conversation at Community dot Therapy for Black Girls dot com. 41 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. Who's great to see you, not to Washington. Hello, Hello, 42 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: thank you for having me here. Yes, I'm very excited 43 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 1: that you were able to join us, So thank you 44 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: so much for it to spending some time with us 45 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: today my pleasure. So I'd love for us to get 46 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: started by talking a little bit about your background. So 47 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 1: you work as an organizational psychologist. Can you say what 48 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: leads you to that field and tell us a little 49 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: bit about what you do as an organizational psychologist. Yes. 50 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: So organizational psychology is one of those things people intuitively 51 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: thinks make sense, but they're like, what do you actually do? 52 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: So I help organizations with all of their human side 53 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: of what they do, and so they're human capital, specifically 54 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: in my role diversity, equity, and inclusion. But organizational psychologists 55 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: were kind of the breath of an organization and I 56 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: was always really passionate about psychology. I remember when I 57 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: took a p psychology in high school, I was like, 58 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: this is it. But I knew I didn't want to 59 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: be a therapist. I know, we're on therapy for black girls, 60 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: but they're beast was not what I wanted to be, 61 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: but I did want to take what we gain from 62 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: things like therapy and human connection and apply that in 63 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: an organizational setting because we spend so much of our 64 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: lives at work. More than one third of our lives 65 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: are at work or working, and I would argue even 66 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,359 Speaker 1: more in the Western world and then that one third number. 67 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 1: And for me, I just wanted to make sure that 68 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: organizations could be places like for me, that could thrive, 69 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 1: and that everyone could have the opportunity to be themselves 70 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: and do their best work. And I think that's the 71 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: core of why I do this work. And whether it's 72 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 1: called diversity, equity and inclusion, whether it's called human capital management, 73 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: whether it's called culture creation, all of that, I want 74 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 1: to make sure that people like myself, people that are 75 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: traditionally marginalized, can be in workplaces where they can thrive. 76 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: That So, in the past couple of months, it feels 77 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: like we have heard quite a bit about quiet quitting. 78 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 1: But in your work you talk a lot of out 79 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 1: quiet firing. So can you tell us what that is exactly? Yes, So, 80 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: quiet firing is when employers maybe are unpleased with the 81 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,679 Speaker 1: work of their team members and they instead of having 82 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 1: those tough conversations giving the candid feedback that is needed. 83 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: They often treat their employees so badly to the point 84 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: they will clip I see them out of important conversations 85 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: or opportunity. And so for the employee, they start to 86 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: feel that and so eventually they do quit instead of 87 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: it being in the hands of the employer. And so, 88 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 1: why you think that people are not having the conversation 89 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: with their team members right, Like, why not just say, like, 90 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: I don't feel like you're performing at your best, Like 91 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: what can we do to kind of get you up 92 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,679 Speaker 1: to speed? Like why push them out in this way instead? 93 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: Because people don't know how to get feedback. I think 94 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: generally speaking, most of us are not great at giving 95 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: candid feedback. And this becomes even more complicated when we 96 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:58,840 Speaker 1: have to give feedback to people who are different than us. 97 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: And so we see this trend being even exacerbated for 98 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: communities of color and for women in the workplace especially, 99 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: But in general, giving feedback in a constructive and candid 100 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: way is not something that many organizations spend enough time on. 101 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: We have shifted from the once a year feedback conversation, 102 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: so most organizations now have platforms where they're saying, have 103 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: feedback conversations multiple times in the year, but they're often 104 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: not giving that training on how to do so. Furthermore, 105 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: we often are not able to be specific in our feedback, 106 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: and so we say you're doing a great job, or 107 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: I want to see you do better, but there's no 108 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: specificity around what exactly happens if I don't do this, 109 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: What are the consequences, How specifically can I get better? 110 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: Like what is the development plan path forward? All of 111 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: that is really challenging for people. And further managers often 112 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: aren't just taking the time to have those one on 113 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: one conversations until things get really bad. So instead of 114 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: you know, having that development or coaching conversation, is easier 115 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: to just say, oh, I'm just not gonna bite this 116 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: person to the meeting, I'm gonna invite someone else, instead 117 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: of having that time set aside for that important development. 118 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: So you brought up this point around it. I suspected 119 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: that this would disproportionately impact communities of color, probably black women, 120 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: because we know we are often most disproportionately impacted when 121 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: things like this happened. Can you talk about, like any 122 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: research that's being done in this area to kind of 123 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: really lay out like how black women in specific are 124 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: being impacted in this way. Yes, so the research is 125 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: probably ongoing at this very moment about quiet firing and 126 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: quired quitting specifically, but there have been decades of research 127 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: that demonstrate as I talked about the challenges with just 128 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 1: giving candid feedback. For example, there was a study done 129 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: a few years ago called the White Male Leadership Study 130 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: that found that many white men in those positions of 131 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,119 Speaker 1: leadership talked about the fact that they struggle with giving 132 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: candid feedback, especially to people that are different from them 133 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,559 Speaker 1: as far as demographic backgrounds. So if you're having white 134 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: male leaders saying I struggle with this and I'm not 135 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: sure that I'm able to give the same candid feedback 136 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: to someone who's different from me than someone who is similar, 137 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: that already is going to cause a chasm in development opportunities. 138 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: But also when we see these efforts of quiet quitting 139 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: acquire firing, right, there's gonna be a disproportionate impact, so 140 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: much so that I remember last year in the New 141 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: York Times, I believe they had an article that talked 142 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: about what happens when women don't get the same feedback 143 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: as men, and how two people can start their careers 144 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: at the very same moment, but the difference in feedback 145 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: at these different inflection points can cause a gap in 146 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: skills and development and certainly in promotion and how well 147 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: that person does. And so they actually showed a graph 148 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: of how two people starting the same day had these 149 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: different feedback experiences. And it's not just one time, it's 150 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: these multiple pigher effects of not getting a necessary feedback 151 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: that you need, and it does become a developmental issue 152 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 1: down the line, right, Like at first, it's just a 153 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: matter of getting that information for what you need to 154 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: do a specific project. But unfortunately these things multiply and 155 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 1: over time we do see that developmental gap happen. And 156 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 1: you know, when that person leaves the organization, some will say, 157 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: and I've heard this from clients, like, oh, well, they 158 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: weren't that strong anyways. They weren't you know, a strong contributor. 159 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: But maybe they weren't as a strong contributor because they 160 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: didn't get the same development and feedback as the next 161 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 1: person did. M mmmm. So can you talk a little 162 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: bit about like the psychological tool of quiet firing, because 163 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: I would imagine there's a lot of them questioning like okay, 164 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 1: well am I doing a good job? And you know, 165 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: like can you talk a little bit about how that 166 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: impacts the employee? Absolutely, I mean, so much of our 167 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: work experience is in our minds because there is so 168 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: much of those unwritten rules, and so when you stop 169 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: getting the invitations, or you're not sure where you're not 170 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: considered for the next opportunity, or you just don't know 171 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: that you're off track and you're not sure how to 172 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: get back on track with your boss in terms of 173 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: that relational respect, but also with the actual output and 174 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 1: the performance that it's expected, it can be really a 175 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: frustrating experience. I mean if you're almost like you don't 176 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: know what to do, especially in cases where you're asking 177 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: for the feedback and there's a lack of candor and 178 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: a lack of comfort with saying that uncomfortable thing, which 179 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,199 Speaker 1: is the manager's job, and so it certainly can take 180 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: a psychological toll. And we see that every single day. 181 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: And that's why there has been this notion of quiet quitting. 182 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: I think well, quiet quitting and quiet firing are a 183 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: signal that the social contract between the team member and 184 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: the manager has been broken. In some way. It may 185 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: be the team member not holding up there into the 186 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: bargain or the manager. But when you have either one 187 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: of these things happened, there is a break in that 188 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: social contract and it can't end well if we're not 189 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: able to come together, have these tough conversations and get 190 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: some alignment on what's needed from the organizational perspective but 191 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: also what is needed from that employee perspective so they 192 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: can give their best their work. So that's just been 193 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: a little time talking about the quiet quitting because I 194 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: have lots of thoughts here, but this is not necessarily 195 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,199 Speaker 1: my expertise, but it is yours, and so I love 196 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: to hear just one are your general thoughts about this 197 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: idea of quiet quitting. It's not new, right, this aspect 198 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: of you know, not giving your job every single part 199 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: of you. There's actually a method of healthy boundaries. So 200 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: I think, for one perspective, if you are thinking of 201 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: quiet quitting as someone having healthy boundaries and not working seven, 202 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: you know, not checking their phone and suessantly when they're 203 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: supposed to be doing other things that are part of 204 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: their life, I think it's a good thing. But if 205 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: quiet quitting is about me just doing the bare minimum. 206 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: Then again, clearly I am not being fulfilled in this 207 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: organization in some way, in this role by my manager. Again, 208 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: there's something broken there, and so I think we have 209 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: to try to do the work to unearthed why the 210 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,439 Speaker 1: quiet quitting is happening for employees. I do not believe 211 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: it's because we are lazy in general. I do not, 212 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 1: But it's because gen Z, who gets a bad rap 213 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 1: right now, just doesn't want to work. I don't think 214 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: it's that. I think there is a break in that 215 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: social contract, and most people would rather just put a 216 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:12,319 Speaker 1: label on it and put it under this trend, as 217 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,559 Speaker 1: opposed to doing the work that it takes to understand 218 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: what's broken and what's missing. And again it goes back 219 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: to those those opportunities for candid conversations that a lot 220 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: of people don't have the tools to have. But also 221 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: there's a lack of time, like managers are like, well, 222 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: I'm busy, I don't have time to pacify every single employee. Well, 223 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: certainly I get that, but then you're going to lose 224 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: employee engagement, which is what has traditionally been called And 225 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: now we're just seeing at the extremes of the quiet 226 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: quitting mm hmmm, yeah, you know, so, as you mentioned, 227 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 1: like nothing is new under the sun. But I do 228 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:49,599 Speaker 1: find it interesting that this term pops up post pandemic 229 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: or whatever level of the pandemic we're in, right, And 230 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 1: so to me it speaks to like just people feeling 231 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: really burned out into aft out right like, and so 232 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: now people are feeling like, I actually can't overextend myself 233 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: in these weeks. So is it really that they're quite 234 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 1: quitting or as you said, really just maintaining healthy boundaries 235 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: around work life and you know, having separation there. The 236 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: pandemic has taught us so much about the need for boundaries, 237 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: but also what happens when you wrap your whole identity 238 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: up in your work, right, That is also not a 239 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 1: healthy thing to do, even if you love your work 240 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: like I love my work, but my whole identity cannot 241 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: be wrapped up in being a professor or author, because 242 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:32,319 Speaker 1: there's so much more to life, right, and you want 243 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: to have that sense of enjoyment. It makes you better 244 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: at your work when you're able to unplug and reconnect. 245 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: Like that's where we always say unplugged and restart when 246 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: we're talking about technology. We need that as humans too, 247 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 1: and so I think the pandemic has just shown us that, 248 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 1: like life is bigger, there are things that happen that 249 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: are not work related that do have a huge impact 250 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: on us, but also how we want to live our lives. 251 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: I think having our ability to just do whatever we 252 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: want whenever we wanted. During the pandemic, it really brought 253 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: into because, Okay, how do I want to spend my 254 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: time outside of work or how do I want to 255 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: spend my work day? Do I want to spend it 256 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 1: commuting two hours each way? Do I want to spend 257 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 1: it behind a computer? Do I want to spend it, 258 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: you know, doing something else? And I think the great 259 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,959 Speaker 1: resignation and the trends we've seen in the past two 260 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: years around people just choosing a different life, even if 261 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: that means less money, even if that means doing something 262 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: they ever thought they would be doing. People are actively 263 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: engaging in their lives in terms of what their careers 264 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: will not only look like, but what it'll feel like. 265 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: And part of that is like when you don't have boundaries, 266 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: you will see more quiet quitting as they're calling it, 267 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: I would say black Way engagement is what I would 268 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: say is the more specific term, but it's certainly all 269 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: in the same family. Mm hmmmmmm. So you mentioned that 270 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: the quiet firing is really kind of them just pushing 271 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: people out as opposed to actively kind of firing somebody. 272 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: Is there some kind of like financial incentive for a 273 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: company to like quietly fire somebody as opposed to a 274 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: mortard aditional firing, Like do you know you save money 275 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: in some way by pushing somebody out as opposed to 276 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: firing them. There certainly are financial implications of terminating an 277 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: employee that's at will, but truly, I don't think most 278 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: managers are one aware of those implications, and they certainly 279 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: are not thinking about those in the forefront of their mind. 280 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: I think secondly, most times quiet firing is not done intentionally. 281 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: I do not think people are sitting down like how 282 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: can I I se this person out? There may be 283 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: some that are doing that, but I think the majority 284 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: of people are just thinking, how can I navigate this situation, 285 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: How can I navigate around this situation or this problematic 286 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: employee from my perspective, versus having the tough conversation versus 287 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: putting them on an improvement plan. So certainly some may 288 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: be thinking financial and some may be doing it on purpose, 289 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: but I think for the most part, it's a method 290 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: of cowardice that is demonstrated in poor management behaviors that 291 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: we're talking about. Not someone waking up like with the 292 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: acts to grind against a specific employee. M got it. 293 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: So Let's say that someone you know enjoying our conversation 294 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: and they realize like, oh, I think this is happening 295 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: to me. So what steps should they take? Like should 296 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: they try to bring this up with the manager? Like? 297 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: What can you do if you feel like this is 298 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: happening to you? Absolutely, I think you have to ask 299 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: for direct and specific feedback. So whether it's positive or negative. 300 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: If your manager says, oh, you did great, make them 301 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: be more specific. What was great about what I did 302 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: in that particular project? What behaviors do you want to 303 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: see again that I can make sure to hone in 304 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: on and vice versa. If you say I need improvement, awesome, 305 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: I want to improve? Tell me specifically how I can improve. 306 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: What behaviors again do you want to see to ensure 307 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: success in the future? How will I know when I've 308 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: made progress? Like being very specific about your questions will 309 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: help someone that's not great at giving feedback. As I mentioned, 310 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: most managers aren't at least push them to be more 311 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: specific in their dialogue. The second thing you want to 312 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: do is document your opportunities to question the feedback you're getting, 313 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: document the things that you are doing to demonstrate your engagement, 314 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,679 Speaker 1: and make sure that you have a social network within 315 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: your organization that goes beyond just your manager. Right, and 316 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: so that is the power of community and power of 317 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 1: having mentors and advocates across the organization. Let them know 318 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 1: what's happening. Don't let quiet firing be your quiet quitting 319 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: exit right. If you want the job, if you want 320 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 1: to continue to progress, you should show some agency. Now 321 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: it's not your fault that they're doing this. Again, I 322 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: think this is poor management when we're seeing it happen. 323 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: But if I'm trying to empower those listening what things 324 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: to do, I would say, ask some more feedback, document 325 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: your conversations as well as reach out to that social 326 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 1: network and be very clear when you're reaching out to 327 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,239 Speaker 1: your manager and to the border social network within the 328 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: organization that you want to be here. You want to 329 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,159 Speaker 1: have opportunity, you want to continue to excel, You're willing 330 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: to do the work. I think those messages coming through 331 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 1: loud and clear are strong ways to combat the CHOI 332 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: at firing. But again, I do not want to allow 333 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 1: bad behavior to be okay, right, this is poor management skills, 334 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: and so it is not on the fault of the 335 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 1: team member if they are being pushed out in this way, 336 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: if they're not getting the feedback they need, this is 337 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: a lack of strong management. What you've shared is making 338 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 1: me think, like, what kind of training exists for managers 339 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: to do a better job at this. Let's say you 340 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 1: are listening in your manage and you're like, oh, I'm 341 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: really afraid of difficult conversations. What kinds of things can 342 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: they do to get better at this? Well, practice makes perfect, 343 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 1: and so leaning into those difficult moments is what's going 344 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: to help now. I do trainings all over the globe 345 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: around like inclusive leadership and inclusive feedback and how to 346 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: create conversations and conversational spaces in order to consistently have 347 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: this report with your team members. But a lot of 348 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: times it comes down to the relationship the manager has 349 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: with their team members, and so the first thing you 350 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 1: can do is making sure that you're creating time and 351 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: space from one on one conversation to get to know 352 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: your team members. You are much more comfortable giving challenging 353 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,120 Speaker 1: news when you actually have a relationship with someone, when 354 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 1: you understand their perspective and they understand yours. Now, again, 355 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,439 Speaker 1: this takes time, and most organizations don't make it clear 356 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,360 Speaker 1: what it takes to be an inclusive leader. They'll say, 357 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: be inclusive in your leadership style, make sure everyone feels 358 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: welcomed in those types of things, but they don't make 359 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: it clear and transparent what the expectations are for managers 360 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: in this regard, or maybe they get a training when 361 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: they first become a manager and that's it. There's no 362 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 1: accountability on the back end of okay, end of year, 363 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: how have you made your team more inclusive? Like, what 364 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 1: is one thing that you've done to really bring in 365 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: divorse perspectives, to really make sure everyone is heard, to 366 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: provide feedback and challenging situations. And so I do think 367 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 1: a lot of the onus is on the organizations and 368 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: providing that environment for training people that are not just 369 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: born knowing how to be good managers. Even if they're 370 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:00,360 Speaker 1: great individual contributors, they do their job excellent, and even 371 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: if they have some natural leadership abilities. You have to 372 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: learn how to be a manager, how to be that 373 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: player and coach which most managers have to contend with 374 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: in organizations. Need to do a better job of providing 375 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: that structure and that training and accountability in order to 376 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: train managers and how to do that. I completely agree 377 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: with it. So you talked about doing trainings across the world. 378 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 1: It sounds like related to d e I. Where do 379 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: you feel like most executives misunderstand about d I work 380 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: and how do you feel like your work is bridging 381 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,959 Speaker 1: that gap. I think most executives think of d e 382 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: I as this big thing that happens in the big conversation. 383 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 1: So for example, after the murder of George Floyd, or 384 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: for example, you know one time a year when it's 385 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,360 Speaker 1: Pride Month, or it's Black History Month or Women's History Month, 386 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,919 Speaker 1: they think about that's d e I in those moments, 387 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 1: or d I is the programs that we're doing to 388 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: support these holidays and events. And d I is so 389 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: much more than that. D I is every single day 390 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 1: creating environments where we're encouraging diversity and diversity of thought, 391 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: Creating environments where we are intentionally being inclusive and we 392 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 1: are seeking out in equities and trying to write them right, 393 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: and those things can be done every single day. So 394 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,120 Speaker 1: what I do in my training to try to bring 395 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: it down to the level of, yes, it's these big moments, 396 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: big conversations, but also, how are you leading inclusively every 397 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 1: single day? What are the things that you can do 398 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: in a regular, everyday team meeting to make people feel 399 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: more seen and valued as a part of the larger team. 400 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,159 Speaker 1: And so I think that's the biggest misnomer that I 401 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 1: try to demystify what d I is all about in 402 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: my work and bring it down to a level where 403 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 1: people can see themselves doing small actions every single day 404 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 1: which add up to those big moments and being able 405 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: to lean into those big conversations when they happen. So, 406 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: you know, our plan is to have this episode released 407 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: in February, which is Black History Month of course here 408 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: in the US, and we know that that is also 409 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: a time when we see lots of corporations doing this 410 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: programming that you're talking about. So how do employees check 411 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 1: their organizations and leadership to ensure that they're not just 412 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: behaving performatively during these you know, months like Black History Month, 413 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: Pride Month, and those kinds of things. Yeah, it's a 414 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: great question. I think first of all, we have seen 415 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,919 Speaker 1: so many more organizations listening to their employees over the 416 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: past few years. I think the pandemic played a huge 417 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: role in that. I think social media has played whog 418 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: rolling that for a number of factors. Organizations are actually 419 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: listening when their employees are speaking. So it's up to 420 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: employees to continue to speak out. So, for example, when 421 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: you are going to those Black History Month events, do 422 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 1: the survey at the end, give that feedback, take that 423 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,399 Speaker 1: extra three minutes. I know we hate the surveys. I 424 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: know we hate to do that, but it is important. 425 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: You know, organizations listen. If you say, yeah, this really 426 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: missed the mark, they will listen. But when you don't 427 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,120 Speaker 1: have the feedback, when you don't take that extra two 428 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 1: minutes to the survey, they're left just assuming that, oh, 429 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 1: it went great. And so one provide feedback through the 430 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: channel alls that your organization has. If your organization doesn't 431 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: have a channel, email somebody let them know what you thought. 432 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 1: You thought the event was great or you thought it 433 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: missed the mark. And here's why. The second thing I 434 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 1: would say is challenging and asking leadership how they plan 435 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: to maintain the commitment during the other eleven months of 436 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: the year. And this goes for Black History Month and 437 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: all of the months that we celebrate and specifically, not 438 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: only how do they plan to continue the commitment throughout 439 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: the rest of the year, but how does this fall 440 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 1: into the broader d I strategy at our company? And 441 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: what this is questioning is, you know, is this just 442 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: a thing we're doing because it's Black History Month and 443 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: we think it's the right thing to do, or we 444 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 1: are assumed that that's what people are expecting, or is 445 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 1: this connected to our larger d I strategy. I do 446 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: not think these cultural events or other celebrations or even 447 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: programs should exist in the vacuum. As I talk about 448 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: in my book The Necessary Journey, these things have to 449 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,880 Speaker 1: be integrated with one another in order to really move 450 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: forward on the larger d I strategy. And so that's 451 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: the second question I would be asking, you know, how 452 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: does this connect to our border strategy and how will 453 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:07,400 Speaker 1: you maintain this commitment throughout the other eleven months? Mm hmmmm. 454 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: So you talked about the book, so I definitely want 455 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 1: to get into the book in the book, you talk 456 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: about like this workplace utopia. So can you define for 457 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: us what does a workplace utopia look like? Well, the 458 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: beautiful thing is that workplace utopia is about conceptualizing this 459 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: ideal work environment for everyone and working towards making that 460 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,959 Speaker 1: a reality. Now, the concept realized heavily on the belief 461 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: that our workplaces are an ecosystem, and everyone will have 462 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: a different sense of what makes a perfect workplace for 463 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 1: them or workplace where they can thrive. It's not going 464 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 1: to be the same for everyone. But what's beautiful about 465 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: workplace utopia is the more that we can kind of 466 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: say out loud what would make a workplace that we 467 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: can thrive, and we hear other people sense of workplace utopia, 468 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 1: we can start to move towards that as a workplace community. 469 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: And so my sense of workplace utopia may be different 470 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: than yours, but understanding you know what really makes us tick, 471 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: what makes us feel included, what makes us feel like 472 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: we can do our best work, we can collectively start 473 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,920 Speaker 1: to work towards making that a reality for everybody. Mm hmmm. 474 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: So there's a chapter in your book called Harnessing the 475 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: Power of Diversity of Thought. At Uncle Nearest and you 476 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: share a quote there from the founder and CEO that says, 477 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: when you set this as your intention from the start, 478 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: then you're able to build a culture where d I 479 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 1: is so in neat that people will question when something 480 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 1: is not aligned with that value. Can you say a 481 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 1: little bit more about what you feel like Uncle Nears 482 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: does right in terms of d e I. So many 483 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: companies you know are not clear on where their values 484 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: are and where their actions align or misaligned with those values. 485 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: Every company has values on their website, every single one, 486 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: and most of them if you ask them, you know, 487 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,479 Speaker 1: how does d I fit into your values, they'll say, oh, 488 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,959 Speaker 1: we're people first, or let's say something broad. But if 489 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: you're not specific around what your organization stands for and 490 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: how the actions of your organizations are aligned with those values, 491 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,880 Speaker 1: you're going to continuously miss the mark and send mixed 492 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,360 Speaker 1: signals not only to your internal stakeholders, but also externally 493 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: as well. And so one thing that Uncle Near says, 494 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: a beautiful job and under the leadership of n Weaver, 495 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: their CEO is being really explicit about those ten values 496 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: that are not negotiable, and not only are they on 497 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,640 Speaker 1: the website, they're part of the interview and hiring process, 498 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: and they are also part of the development process internally 499 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: to the organization. So this is a company that doesn't 500 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 1: just have their values on the website because it's a 501 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: nice thing to have and it sounds good. They really 502 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 1: do live by them and they often question business decisions 503 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: internally and externally based on are these aligned with our values? 504 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,880 Speaker 1: And I wish more companies did that more from our 505 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: conversation after the break all right, well, sift think looking 506 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: at chefs of Worful as you can see trading in 507 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 1: the red down just alcohol. The center following the report 508 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: of the tech giant started to layoff US based employees 509 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 1: welcome back. As companies across the board continue to tighten 510 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,880 Speaker 1: their belt, some have been feeling the impact more than others. 511 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: How a company handles a layoff can have a lasting 512 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: impact on the firm's future success. Experts say if it's 513 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,959 Speaker 1: poorly managed, a staff production can't damage the company's reputation. 514 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: As the American economy continues to ebb and flow, and 515 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 1: nations across the world continue to deal with the effects 516 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: of the global pandemic, many folks are in a position 517 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: where they do not have gainful employment. In Part two 518 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 1: of our conversation, we continue with Dr Washington while also 519 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: hearing the firsthand testimony of TVG community member Flow, who 520 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: found herself out of work in the midst of the pandemic. 521 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 1: For most of us, finding out that you're out of 522 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: work feels like an absolute nightmare. Here's flow story. So 523 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:01,679 Speaker 1: Miley off happened in September twenty twenty. That was within 524 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: the first twelve months of the pandemic, even though the 525 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: company signaled in channery of that changes were going to happen. 526 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: I don't think knowledge of something really fully prepares you 527 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: for the actuality of it happening. So, yes, I could 528 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: have saved more money than I usually would, but the 529 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: reality of not waking up in the morning and having 530 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: to log onto my laptop to show up at a job, 531 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 1: so to speak, was really tough. I don't think anything 532 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: I could have done would have prepared me for the 533 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: feeling of disappointment and at times aimlessness so to speak. 534 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: That a layoff provided that Washington. So within the last 535 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: few weeks and months, it feels like there have been 536 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: like a handful of, like very large amount of layoffs, 537 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: specifically in the tech community. Are you aware of any 538 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 1: like research that talks about like how black and brown 539 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: communities may be disproportionately impacted by like these significant kind 540 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: of layoffs. Yeah, so historically, unfortunately, black and brown communities 541 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: are generally disproportionately impacted. If we look back to the 542 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: Great Recession of the two thousand seven two thousand nine error, 543 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: for example, black workers unemployment rate increased to double digits 544 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: and remained high over six years, even though the unemployment 545 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 1: rate of white workers never reached double digits during the 546 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: Great Recession or in the years after. It took more 547 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: than ten years for black workers incomes to return to 548 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: their prerecession levels during the Great Recession. So we've seen 549 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: this before, and there are a lot of factors that 550 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: go onto play there. Even if the layoff process is 551 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,719 Speaker 1: not specifically biased, there is biased in the discretion that 552 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: managers might have to lay off people. And so when 553 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 1: we think about maybe a woman who's pregnant, maybe be 554 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: a manager assumes that you know, she's secondary income to 555 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: the household, or that she won't be able to pull 556 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: her away after she has the baby, or other more 557 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: unconscious biases such as we see in the performance review process, 558 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: you give better feedback to one group versus another. So 559 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: now when it's time to think about layoffs, well, we 560 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: don't think these two employees are at the same level, 561 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: and so we're more likely going to layoff black or 562 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: brown employee, and so I think it's a legitimate concern. Unfortunately, 563 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: the research does point in that direction as what we've 564 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: seen in the past, and I don't have good evidence 565 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: to think that it's going to be much different this 566 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: time around. Unfortunately, huge flow. Again, I think will is 567 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: a big part of our identity. Think about it, I 568 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: would have shown up for nine hours every day, don't 569 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: know particular job for modern tennis closer tenny as actually 570 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: so not having that but a killer aspect of my 571 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: life is there anymore? Was really different and changes challenging 572 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: to deal with. Sometimes even when we finally see the 573 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 1: hype points of the change, it is really tough to 574 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: deal with it while you're going through it. You spoke 575 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: down to Washington earlier about how so much of our 576 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: identity is sometimes unfortunately tied in to our work, and 577 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: so I can imagine, especially if that was something that 578 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: you struggle with, like layoffs feel really personal right in 579 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: addition to the livelihood stuff, I think it can also 580 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: cause a bit of a blow to like who am I? 581 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 1: And like, what does this all mean now that I've 582 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: been laid off? What kind of recommendations do you have 583 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: for people, especially in the immediate aftermath of a layoff. Yeah, 584 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: it's tough, first of all, So let's just acknowledge it 585 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: doesn't feel good and no one wants to be laid off, 586 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:53,959 Speaker 1: even if there's you know, a light at the end 587 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 1: of the town and all of that. You got to 588 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 1: give yourself time to process. It's a loss, and you 589 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: may go through a grieving process us around like this 590 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: identity being shifted, and that's okay. Give yourself that time 591 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: and space. I think once you move past those initial 592 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: shock feelings and that initial anger or other things you 593 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: may be feeling, think about it as a time to 594 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: reevaluate and allowing your goals and interests, you know, reflect 595 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: on that job that you are leaving. What parts of 596 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: the job did you love and you can't wait to 597 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: do again. What parts of the job just did not 598 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: serve you and you will not miss and you don't 599 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: want to recreate. I also think it's an opportunity to 600 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: reinvent yourself if you would like, right, this could be 601 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: an opportunity to get into another career, Explore hobbies that 602 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: can be career oriented in the future. Go back to school. 603 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: Like the sky is the limit. And so when we 604 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 1: don't limit ourselves based on again our previously defined identities, 605 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: we may find that we are going to do something 606 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: that is totally different but much more fulfilling to us. 607 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: So give yourself that space. And then finally, I would say, 608 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 1: tap into your community. Like it can be embarrassing, it 609 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: can feel lonely, it's a hurtful place to be laid off, 610 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 1: but your community is there for you, right tap into 611 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 1: your friends and family network. Let them know when you're struggling. 612 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 1: Don't grapple with feelings of depression or loss by yourself 613 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: if you don't have to. That is the power of 614 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: our community. And I encourage just even in these tough 615 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: and uncomfortable moments, to lean into that head of So 616 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 1: I found out that I lost my job over zooe 617 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 1: meeting or teams meeting, but a virtual meeting of some sort. 618 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: It was around the third of September. It was during 619 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: the pandemic, so there was a lot of uncertainty outside 620 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 1: and having to lose my job was another aspect of uncertainty. 621 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: So for me, even though I may have known that 622 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 1: this day was going to come, just being called internet 623 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: virtual meeting and here in the woods, well we no 624 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: longer require your employing and really stung. So I had 625 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: to prepare myself. I tried to remain calm. Actually my 626 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 1: managers were surprised that I was so calm, but I 627 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: forced myself to end on the most positive of notes 628 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 1: because I don't believe in being in bridges. You never know, 629 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: and someone who lives on an island, we have like 630 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 1: three degrees of separation, so you never know who knows who. 631 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: So I really tried to manage my emotions. However, after 632 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,839 Speaker 1: I got off the call, Yeah, I cried, tears rolled 633 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,280 Speaker 1: on my face. I remember like my hands were trembling, 634 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 1: and I picked up the phone and I called my 635 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,399 Speaker 1: significant other and I told him the news. I was like, yes, 636 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,399 Speaker 1: it was just confirmed. I've been laid off. And then 637 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 1: I studied myself again. I took another deep breath and 638 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,360 Speaker 1: I called my mom and I said, Mom, I just 639 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: heard the news, and she said, like most moms would do, 640 00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: she would try to remain optimistic. She said a prayer 641 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,720 Speaker 1: for me, and you know, She's like, you know, don't worry. 642 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 1: I'm sure you would find something soon. Try to reassure 643 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 1: me as best as I possibly could. Know. This was 644 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: a round the third of September. Mind you, I had 645 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: to work out the end of the month, so I 646 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,799 Speaker 1: had to show up every day for the remainder of 647 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: the month of September, knowing that comedy thirty yards that 648 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 1: would be it. So yeah, it was a lot of 649 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: managing emotions. You may be seeing the tears welling up 650 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: in my eyes now because I remember it so vividly. 651 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: It's sometimes we want to take it personally, and I 652 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 1: might say that I perhaps took it personally because it's 653 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:44,839 Speaker 1: almost as if someone is telling you, know, personally, like 654 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,799 Speaker 1: you are no longer wanted. It may not necessarily condemning 655 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: your ability to do your job. It is just a 656 00:35:53,000 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 1: reality of an economic situation. More from our conversation after 657 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:29,360 Speaker 1: the break, Dr Washington, what do you find most people 658 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 1: are concerned about immediately after a layoff. It's an identity piece. 659 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,240 Speaker 1: It's what are people gonna think? You know, there's certainly 660 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 1: the economic factor, right depending on their economic status. But 661 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:42,400 Speaker 1: I think for a lot of people, like in the 662 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 1: tech world, that they're very first concerned based on what 663 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: I'm hearing. It's not like how am I going to 664 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 1: pay my bills? But it's like, what are people gonna 665 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 1: think now that I'm fired? Like what am I gonna do? 666 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 1: Like who am I? Who is this new identity? And 667 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 1: so I think you got to resist that, like we 668 00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 1: have seen, unfortunately in our lifetime recession for obviously, so 669 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,879 Speaker 1: we've been here before and people made it, struggled, but 670 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 1: made it to the other side. So even taking those 671 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,799 Speaker 1: lessons learned, maybe it was you that experienced that, or 672 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: maybe it's a generation before you, but trying not to 673 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 1: let it be a cloud over your whole career. Right, 674 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: this is a moment in time, and you're not the 675 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,319 Speaker 1: only one if you look at the news every day. 676 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: So it does for like a personal attacking his personal 677 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 1: in some ways, you're not the only one, and so 678 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 1: thinking about that as well can help, just putting into perspective. 679 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 1: But I don't want to pretend like it's easy. It's 680 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 1: not easy, and it sucks. So I just want to 681 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,839 Speaker 1: be very clear that this is not to pacify those 682 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 1: very natural emotions of hurt and loss that you'll feel. 683 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 1: So I think I read something recently that talked about, 684 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 1: especially if you have a decent like severance package, right, 685 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 1: that a lot of people are able to like build 686 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: really cool new startups or you know, just delve into 687 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,400 Speaker 1: places that they maybe didn't have the time or resources 688 00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,759 Speaker 1: to when they were employed. Can you talk a little 689 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 1: bit of about how people can maybe use this opportunity 690 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: in between jobs to really kind of prep them for 691 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:09,839 Speaker 1: the next opportunity. Yeah, So I think it's exploring yourself, right, 692 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,760 Speaker 1: like using that opportunity to think about the biggest idea 693 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 1: you can think about, and how can you make that 694 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: a reality. We're often limited by what we see right 695 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: in front of us, So what resources our current company 696 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: had or what our manager allowed us to do, and 697 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 1: that previous role, all of the guard whils are taken 698 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 1: off in this new space. And so I encourage me 699 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: to dream big. Like in my classes, we start with 700 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: the biggest ideas we can get and then we bring 701 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:37,920 Speaker 1: them down to a tactical level, And so I encourage 702 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 1: to do that in our own lives, like nothing is 703 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 1: off limits. I do think though, we must acknowledge that 704 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 1: for people with those generous severance packages. That is a 705 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,279 Speaker 1: position of privilege that everyone doesn't have, right, There are 706 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: some people that when they are laid off, they do 707 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: immediately need to think about their very next job, and 708 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,560 Speaker 1: so it is a position of privilege. So recognize that 709 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 1: as such, like you the privilege of having three months 710 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: to figure it out. Don't waste it, you know, sitting 711 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 1: your feelings for whatever records the time you need, but 712 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,440 Speaker 1: also use it as an opportunity to go to the 713 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,439 Speaker 1: next biggest thing, the thing that's really going to make 714 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 1: you thriving your career. So I had to relieve find 715 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:34,239 Speaker 1: my confidence again, and people were instrumental in that. I 716 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: remember getting on a phone call with my coach at 717 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:42,440 Speaker 1: the time and explaining to her, you know, what happened, 718 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 1: and she encouraged me to write a letter. And that 719 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,800 Speaker 1: was really really helpful because after I wrote that letter 720 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,640 Speaker 1: and you know, said all these things that I did 721 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 1: not allow myself to say in a conversation, it felt 722 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,920 Speaker 1: good to express them. And at the same time, I 723 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 1: was able to tear it up, and just the act 724 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: of tearing up the letter was free and it felt 725 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 1: good to release that anger and frustration with something that 726 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: was really out of my control, so that really came 727 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 1: in handy that advice from her. What also helped me 728 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 1: was taking long walks. I made it a point to 729 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,279 Speaker 1: wake up every morning go get some fresh air. So 730 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:27,319 Speaker 1: I took some laps around. They failed attached to my 731 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,960 Speaker 1: high school, and it was good to actually see my 732 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,439 Speaker 1: high school because it reminded me of a time when 733 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 1: there was so much promise. I had so many years 734 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,720 Speaker 1: ahead of me, So just physically see in the school 735 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:44,160 Speaker 1: was just so great and so reassuring, and it was 736 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,360 Speaker 1: almost like I was planning for a new life and 737 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 1: new career. Something we say here in Trinidad is God, 738 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,759 Speaker 1: go sleep and what is for you is for you, 739 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,239 Speaker 1: meaning that your creator knows what is in your best 740 00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 1: interests and he will create that opportunity for you when 741 00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 1: it toy right time. If you've been recently laid off, 742 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 1: here's what I suggest. Ease back into the world of 743 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:12,479 Speaker 1: book and by that I mean express your emotions, actively, plan, 744 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:17,879 Speaker 1: seek support, and embrace evolution. You would have heard me 745 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 1: mention me venton, yes, write it out. If you need 746 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,800 Speaker 1: to go into that diary journal, even if it's a 747 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:29,640 Speaker 1: voice journal. Remain active and definitely plan what your next 748 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:33,839 Speaker 1: steps are going to be. Six support because you would 749 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 1: be surprised at the number of people within your network 750 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:41,239 Speaker 1: who would be willing and ready to help you if 751 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,879 Speaker 1: you only ask for that help. And the last thing 752 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:49,160 Speaker 1: is to embrace evolution. Try something new. You never know 753 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: what new horizon away to pull out that to do 754 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:54,920 Speaker 1: list or some might say a bucket list and just 755 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:59,359 Speaker 1: try something new, stay strong, ease back into the world 756 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 1: of work. I remember that the rough tide wound to 757 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:05,759 Speaker 1: last forever. Dr Washington, Like, if you have been you know, 758 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 1: quietly by your pushed out of a position, or if 759 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 1: you are someone who has been recently laid off, how 760 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:13,400 Speaker 1: do you suggest people talk about that like in the 761 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 1: interview process for a next position. I think for the 762 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 1: quiet firing situation, you know what it's like to have 763 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,640 Speaker 1: a manager that's not connected with you, to not get 764 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,560 Speaker 1: the feedback in neath your development. So I would ask 765 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:32,240 Speaker 1: very directed questions to the interviewer around how is feedback 766 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:36,000 Speaker 1: giving this organization? What is the expectation that managers will 767 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,720 Speaker 1: spend one on one time with their team members instead 768 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:40,919 Speaker 1: of talking about your skills, what you're going to bring 769 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,000 Speaker 1: to the organization and even what your expectations are from 770 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,600 Speaker 1: the organization. So I totally think interviews should be a 771 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,080 Speaker 1: two way street. But if you're spending the whole time 772 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:51,799 Speaker 1: talking about what you're mad about from your past organization, 773 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,560 Speaker 1: I think you may be missing an opportunity to ask 774 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 1: the right questions of your new employer of making sure 775 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 1: that won't happen there. So I think it's fine to 776 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,400 Speaker 1: talk about you've had struggles with getting the feedback you 777 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,840 Speaker 1: need or something like that, but I think if you 778 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,359 Speaker 1: center the conversation there, it's not as productive for either 779 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,200 Speaker 1: side to truly understand what you're bringing to the table, 780 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 1: but also what the organization can bring to you. So 781 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:20,320 Speaker 1: currently I have moved into my ideal field, which is 782 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:25,720 Speaker 1: human resources. I landed a job and human resources and 783 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:31,400 Speaker 1: it is so rewarding. I remember recently calling a candidate 784 00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:37,120 Speaker 1: to congratulate on landing a rule and she said, oh 785 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,560 Speaker 1: my gosh, she gonna make me cry. You can't believe 786 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:43,879 Speaker 1: how happy I am. And honestly, as someone who has 787 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:47,440 Speaker 1: been laid off and who has struggled to find employment, 788 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:52,160 Speaker 1: I understand exactly what she meant and how she felt 789 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,959 Speaker 1: at that point in time. So that's my day job, 790 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 1: and I have also started coaching people on the side. 791 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:03,120 Speaker 1: That's my side hustle, because hey, there are many people 792 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:05,880 Speaker 1: and he will that need help. And if I have 793 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,279 Speaker 1: life and breath and I kind of help, I will 794 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 1: find a way to help. I love when a black 795 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,080 Speaker 1: woman's story ends with her not only on top, but 796 00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,759 Speaker 1: with her in a position to help others. I want 797 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,040 Speaker 1: to thank Dr Washington and Flow for joining us for 798 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,000 Speaker 1: this episode and also want to ensure you're able to 799 00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 1: stay in touch with them. Here's how to stay connected 800 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,560 Speaker 1: with Dr Washington. I would love it if you connect 801 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,920 Speaker 1: with me on LinkedIn or Instagram at Ella F Washington 802 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,200 Speaker 1: and my website is Ella f Washington dot com. And 803 00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:36,640 Speaker 1: can we grab a copy of your book from the website. 804 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:39,360 Speaker 1: I would love if you grab ten copies of the 805 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,719 Speaker 1: book from my website. My book, The Necessary Journey Making 806 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,799 Speaker 1: Real Progress on Equity and Inclusion, is available at all 807 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,480 Speaker 1: major retailers. You can also find out more on my 808 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:52,319 Speaker 1: website or The Necessary Journey dot com website. Here's how 809 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:54,640 Speaker 1: to stay connected with Blow Well. You can find me 810 00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:59,320 Speaker 1: on Instagram at finding Her, Flow f l O Underscore 811 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:04,120 Speaker 1: w and on my Instagram bio, you will find links 812 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:06,680 Speaker 1: to my website. Feel free to drop in my d 813 00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,680 Speaker 1: M s. I'm always happy to connect to our fellow 814 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:14,960 Speaker 1: sister because one thing being laid off proved to me 815 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:18,600 Speaker 1: is that your network can be a safety net. So 816 00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,680 Speaker 1: I'm always happy to grow my network. So reach out, 817 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:25,160 Speaker 1: say hi if you're outside of Trinidad and to make 818 00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,840 Speaker 1: a new Caribbean Hey, I'm always happy to make friends 819 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,239 Speaker 1: all across the group, So that's finding her flow. F 820 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:39,120 Speaker 1: l O underscore w What an incredible conversation. I want 821 00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,840 Speaker 1: to thank both our guests for sharing their respective expertise 822 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:45,960 Speaker 1: and personal experience. To learn more about Dr Washington Flow 823 00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,959 Speaker 1: or to do more research on this topic, be sure 824 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:51,400 Speaker 1: to visit our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot 825 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,560 Speaker 1: com slash session to ninety two. If you're looking for 826 00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,640 Speaker 1: a therapist in your area, check out our therapist directory 827 00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,359 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash direct three. 828 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,080 Speaker 1: And if you want to continue digging into this topic 829 00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,719 Speaker 1: or just be in community with other sisters, come on 830 00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,000 Speaker 1: over and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our 831 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:10,680 Speaker 1: cozy corner of the Internet designed just for black women. 832 00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,520 Speaker 1: You can join us at Community dot therapy for Black 833 00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:17,560 Speaker 1: Girls dot Com. This episode was produced by Freda Lucas 834 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,840 Speaker 1: and Elise Ellis, and editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. 835 00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:23,760 Speaker 1: Thank you' all so much for joining me again this week. 836 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,359 Speaker 1: I look forward to continue in this conversation with you 837 00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:28,759 Speaker 1: all real soon. Take it care