Speaker 1: I am a Yamla. I had a baby daddy relationship.
Speaker 1: I spent time in a relationship with a married man.
Speaker 1: I had to learn the skills and tools required to
Speaker 1: make my relationships healthy, fulfilling and loving. Welcome to the
Speaker 1: R Spot, a production of shondaland Audio in partnership with
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio Ground Rising. Great day, wherever you are, and welcome
Speaker 1: to our spot, the place we come to talk about relationships,
Speaker 1: all types of relationships, but particularly the relationship that we
Speaker 1: are having with ourself, which influences and impacts the relationships
Speaker 1: that we have with all other people. And I am excited.
Speaker 1: I'm telling you, I am excited about our conversation today
Speaker 1: dealing with men and their relationship with themselves as it
Speaker 1: is presented by my guest today. I've got guests today
Speaker 1: as it is presented by my guest. In the book
Speaker 1: The Invisible Ache, Black Men Identifying their Pain and Reclaiming
Speaker 1: their Power, presented to the world by Courtney B. Vance
Speaker 1: and doctor Robin L. Smith. You know these people, you
Speaker 1: know them, I know them. I love them. Courtney B.
Speaker 1: Vance we know from his work and stage and screen.
Speaker 1: I know him as Da Carver from the Law and
Speaker 1: Order because you know, I am a Law and Order fan.
Speaker 1: I think I've seen every episode eighty six times. But
Speaker 1: we know him and we love him, the beloved husband
Speaker 1: of Angela Bassett, who has shared his heart and his
Speaker 1: soul with the intention of supporting men and identifying their
Speaker 1: pain and reclaiming their power. He is joined in that
Speaker 1: effort by doctor Robin L. Smith, renowned psychologists. We've seen
Speaker 1: her everywhere. She shares from her heart, and she is
Speaker 1: committed to the health and the healing of people of color,
Speaker 1: but of all people, Doctor Robin. We call her because
Speaker 1: we love her. Welcome, mister Courtney, doctor Robin, Welcome to
Speaker 1: the art spot. And I have to thank you for
Speaker 1: the Invisible Ache. Oh my god, I can't put it down,
Speaker 1: so thank you for being here today. Why Courtney, Why now?
Speaker 1: Why ache? Why tell me why?
Speaker 2: I lost my father to suicide thirty three years ago
Speaker 2: and the journey of that to marriage and to healing
Speaker 2: into today. And then three years ago I lost my
Speaker 2: god son to suicide. And I said to myself and
Speaker 2: then to Miss Gilda by our publicist, I said, that's enough.
Speaker 2: I've got to say something. I've got to do something.
Speaker 2: And Miss Gilda and put myself and doctor the inimitable
Speaker 2: Doctor Robin l together and it was a match made
Speaker 2: in heaven and we we just we don't need nobody
Speaker 2: in the middle of us. We just talked, and that's
Speaker 2: what we're going to do today.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Doctor Robin. The way this book is
Speaker 1: learned out how Courtney shares and then you assess and
Speaker 1: give tools. I think that is just genius. You said
Speaker 1: this in the book. When I met Courtney it had
Speaker 1: been thirty three years since his father's suicide. And then
Speaker 1: you go on to say that black men's mental health,
Speaker 1: that too many of them suffer alone. Talk to me
Speaker 1: about that suffering.
Speaker 3: Yeah, suffering alone. And thank you again for this moment.
Speaker 3: Ian looe with you for Courtney and I to come.
Speaker 3: He and I are partners, and you and I have
Speaker 3: journeyed a long time together. So it's an honor to
Speaker 3: bring the Invisible Ache to this space. Suffering alone, suffering
Speaker 3: in silence. You know I talk about in The Invisible
Speaker 3: Ache that silence is not always golden. It can be deadly.
Speaker 3: And so often men in general and black men specifically
Speaker 3: have been taught, rewarded, punished for having their feelings. You know,
Speaker 3: I went on to pay a bill recently, and Courtney
Speaker 3: and I had been on the road sharing the Invisible Ache,
Speaker 3: and this I shared this with him and the audience
Speaker 3: that a message came up and it said, verify you
Speaker 3: are human. Not I am not a robot. Not right,
Speaker 3: not I am not a robot, but verify you are human.
Speaker 3: And immediately I felt for all boys and men, but
Speaker 3: particularly again Black boys and men who have been challenged
Speaker 3: as to whether or not they are human, full and
Speaker 3: whole humans, with all of their feelings and all of
Speaker 3: their You know, I say that tears are our teacher,
Speaker 3: but how many of our black boys and men have
Speaker 3: been stripped and robbed and really sanctioned to silence, almost
Speaker 3: solitary confinement. And so we are breaking that silence. We're
Speaker 3: breaking the shame of boys and men who were told
Speaker 3: to man up. And what we're saying is part of
Speaker 3: manning up is claiming your whole humanity.
Speaker 2: Thank you, doctor Rob, you can bring it off, so beautiful,
Speaker 2: go ahead.
Speaker 1: We've got a caller who is in that exact spot
Speaker 1: talking about defining his manhood and what it means. I
Speaker 1: want to bring him on so that he can share
Speaker 1: with you, and you can share with him and let's
Speaker 1: get his ache addressed to the best of our ability.
Speaker 1: Greetings beloved, and welcome to the R Spot. We are
Speaker 1: talking today to Courtney B. Vance and doctor Robin L.
Speaker 1: Smith about the invisible ache. Please share with us your
Speaker 1: dilemma at this time.
Speaker 4: Well, it's great to be on your show. Briefly, of
Speaker 4: what attracted me to the post that I seen yesterday
Speaker 4: was the fact that the word invisible ache spoke so
Speaker 4: harshly to me that I knew it was a real thing.
Speaker 4: And I've realized that the invisible ache that we all
Speaker 4: go through as people is the miseducation, especially as a
Speaker 4: Black man. On how miseducated I was and misled to
Speaker 4: do things a certain way in our community has led
Speaker 4: to nothing but at one point, nothing but downfall, and
Speaker 4: it eventually hurt that I had to basically endure and
Speaker 4: try to, I guess, rebrand what I became by going
Speaker 4: through my maturity. But I believe the more mature I
Speaker 4: believe that I got, the more hurt I kept discovering,
Speaker 4: and it became a whack of mole of emotions I
Speaker 4: kept going through, Like every time I just I saw
Speaker 4: one issue I come up with three others that I
Speaker 4: didn't realize this is way deeper the surface level of
Speaker 4: what I thought I went through, and it just became
Speaker 4: a self not a self hatred of my community, but
Speaker 4: just a global self awareness of that my community, especially
Speaker 4: as men go through And that's why I believe I
Speaker 4: go through the hurt, the emotion despite me not you
Speaker 4: my emotions. I still have feelings on how I go
Speaker 4: through things, but as men, we get told not to
Speaker 4: feel it. You just have to keep pushing and keep moving.
Speaker 4: And I grew up saying yes, I'm going to keep
Speaker 4: pushing and move and keep my head up. But then
Speaker 4: when everyone leaves the room I have to kind of
Speaker 4: go in the corner for a while, you know.
Speaker 1: So, beloved man asked you a question. I heard you say,
Speaker 1: the mis education. So that Courtney and doctor Robin can
Speaker 1: help you, can you give us a specific so that
Speaker 1: we can find common ground.
Speaker 4: A very specific. To be honest with you, is, for instance,
Speaker 4: when it came to professionalism, I would say, uh, you know,
Speaker 4: I was taught to, you know, be kind to your
Speaker 4: fellow co workers. Otherwise this would happen. But the more
Speaker 4: you give to others, the more they take or especially
Speaker 4: in the black community, Hey be nice to your fellow
Speaker 4: you know, black sister, and we would try to be
Speaker 4: nice to them, but then we would get mistreated, you know,
Speaker 4: because we were so nice to them, especially grow up
Speaker 4: in the city that I'm from, or whenever it comes like,
Speaker 4: hey being you know, be nice to your fellow black mats.
Speaker 4: You know. When it came to family, I was also
Speaker 4: taught to, hey, respect your elders. But when it came
Speaker 4: to putting up a healthy bouncher, say hey, mother or auntie, uncle,
Speaker 4: this isn't right, they will say, hey, don't disrespect your elders,
Speaker 4: or they'll just exil you from the family. When all
Speaker 4: I did was follow what you told me to do.
Speaker 4: But I thought I did everything right, but all I
Speaker 4: got was the wrong outcome. As growing up, I had
Speaker 4: to be kind of conscious of what am I exactly
Speaker 4: supposed to do because what I am taught to the
Speaker 4: world and from the world, it's a different reaction than
Speaker 4: how the world actually gave it to me.
Speaker 3: The ways in which people have disappointed you, you've been
Speaker 3: and we all have been miseducated. We have been conditioned
Speaker 3: as people, but particularly as black people, and particularly as
Speaker 3: black boys and men. You know, when boys fall down
Speaker 3: and hurt themselves, we tell them to get up and
Speaker 3: stop that crying. When girls fall we pick them up,
Speaker 3: we kiss their boo boo, We picked a certain color
Speaker 3: band aid for them. And then we wonder why, as men,
Speaker 3: a lot of their entitlement to all of their feelings
Speaker 3: is not there. And so I want to invite you
Speaker 3: to not get stuck. That doesn't mean you deny your pain.
Speaker 3: It means that you use it as a stepping stone.
Speaker 3: And I hear you waiting in some ways, and I've
Speaker 3: done this, so I understand this waiting for someone else
Speaker 3: to tell you to validate that your feelings are real.
Speaker 3: And I'm wondering what would happen today? He and Courtney
Speaker 3: can really weigh into this, what will happen today if
Speaker 3: you decide, even if your Mama and grandmam and aunties
Speaker 3: and the other people, if they don't see you, can
Speaker 3: you decide today that you see you? And Courtney bevancies you,
Speaker 3: and doctor Robin sees you, and Iyanla sees you. But
Speaker 3: what is most important is can you make a decision
Speaker 3: to no longer be invisible and have your aches and
Speaker 3: your pains and your holes. You know, I say, we
Speaker 3: all have holes h o l e s we are
Speaker 3: longing to be whole w h o O l e,
Speaker 3: which is a holy h O l y journey.
Speaker 2: I love as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah that was good, right, this one fill your holes
Speaker 1: so you can be whole and that is a holy journey.
Speaker 4: Wow, that's amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah did you hear? What can you choose? Have you chosen?
Speaker 1: Will you choose to be seen today? And how does
Speaker 1: that make you feel?
Speaker 5: Just to consider that if it was almost like a
Speaker 5: burden at first. But I have to look through the
Speaker 5: pain and I have to ignore the pain, just like
Speaker 5: what we do when we lift weights, and I feel
Speaker 5: once I am I'm able to do that. I'm going
Speaker 5: to not literally, but I'm going to, you know, spiritually
Speaker 5: parba mentally cry about it, but lift that heavy pain
Speaker 5: off myself.
Speaker 3: You don't need to ignore your pain when we're lifting weights.
Speaker 3: When I'm a runner and so when I'm jogging, I
Speaker 3: can't really ignore what I'm feeling. What I can do
Speaker 3: is give myself a new message about the pain I'm feeling.
Speaker 3: So I want to caution you you don't need to
Speaker 3: ignore your pain. You want to read language what your
Speaker 3: pain is here to teach you what it is here,
Speaker 3: how it's going to instruct you. And the other part
Speaker 3: is we're longing, all of us for somebody, and Ianla
Speaker 3: did this for hundreds of people, to fix our lives,
Speaker 3: to fix our heart, our hearts, to fix our relationships.
Speaker 3: And the reality is, and you know, like Prince Charming
Speaker 3: isn't coming, Princess Charming isn't coming. But the person you've
Speaker 3: been waiting for your whole life, the person I've been
Speaker 3: waiting for my whole life. Guess what. That person has arrived.
Speaker 3: And it's you. It's you awake, it's you committed to you,
Speaker 3: it's you open to your own power and your own transformation.
Speaker 3: And so what I'm saying to you, I did not
Speaker 3: learn this in books. You know, if you've been following
Speaker 3: Iyanla for years, she learned what she learned. Of course,
Speaker 3: she's smart and she's brilliant and she's all of that,
Speaker 3: but she's suffered and she has converted her suffering into
Speaker 3: a platform of elevation. And so we are inviting you
Speaker 3: to the same power. We're not special, there's nothing unique
Speaker 3: about me or Courtney or Yanla. We just made a
Speaker 3: decision to take all that stuff that hurt us and
Speaker 3: use it for pay and for purpose and for transformation.
Speaker 1: We'll talk more about it when we come back. Welcome
Speaker 1: back to the R spot. Let's pick up where we
Speaker 1: left off. How does it happen that men become disenchanted
Speaker 1: or they lose trust or faith in their own personal strength?
Speaker 1: How does that happen?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, our parents were raised in a different time.
Speaker 2: It happens in every generation. Our parents were raised in
Speaker 2: the depression. So that's a whole different reality that they've
Speaker 2: given to us. Some some fears and some things that
Speaker 2: they had to deal with that you know that that
Speaker 2: that that my parents didn't have to deal with. Okay,
Speaker 2: so then, but but they were taught that way. So
Speaker 2: my parents passed on some of their fear is to me.
Speaker 2: So I come to be thirty years old and did
Speaker 2: the best I could to get to where I was
Speaker 2: with what they gave me. Now, the rest of it,
Speaker 2: from thirty on, or whenever you come to that, you
Speaker 2: hit that roadblock in your life in your mind, the
Speaker 2: rest of it is on me. The rest of it
Speaker 2: is on me to try to connect with other people,
Speaker 2: you know, because you don't have to. You can go
Speaker 2: to the rest of your life exactly where you are,
Speaker 2: go as far as your parents there, their instructions will
Speaker 2: take you. And at thirty I could have stopped and said,
Speaker 2: I'm done. Whatever happens to me is whatever happens to me,
Speaker 2: that's life. I could have made all the excuses and gone,
Speaker 2: you know whatever, boo, I'm gonna be this is me,
Speaker 2: and that would be fine. I probably wouldn't be here
Speaker 2: right now because all I knew was what my father did,
Speaker 2: and he taught me everything, so I would be like,
Speaker 2: well he did it, It's okay to be done that way,
Speaker 2: that's what that's like. But I said no, no, my
Speaker 2: mother said no. First of all, my mother took me
Speaker 2: in my sister's side and said we're going to break this.
Speaker 2: Go find someone to talk to. Now that was foreign
Speaker 2: to me that I actually could I can do that.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's the thing you can do, to talk
Speaker 2: to somebody, talk about what what we're going to talk about.
Speaker 2: And so I'm growing, I'm I'm She gave me a charge.
Speaker 2: I followed it, and but at every step there was darkness.
Speaker 2: So I continually come up up against myself and I
Speaker 2: continually we continually can go I'm done. I don't want
Speaker 2: to do that. That's too much work. But as doctor
Speaker 2: Robin tells tells us that suffering is work, we're so
Speaker 2: used to being able to that. That's our reality. That
Speaker 2: that's life is suffering, and life is not suffering. Life
Speaker 2: is supposed to be abundance. But there's nobody encouraging us
Speaker 2: toward abundance. And sometimes, as my Bible tells me, you've
Speaker 2: got to encourage your own self. You've got to find
Speaker 2: a way to keep going. As Jonathan you told us,
Speaker 2: you got to keep going. Somebody told you to keep
Speaker 2: that's that's what you just got to keep and you do.
Speaker 2: You got to press until you find someone else to
Speaker 2: help you take past the batonda to go to the
Speaker 2: next But because ultimately I said, I got to get
Speaker 2: myself ready for the next time as someone wonderful comes
Speaker 2: into my life to be able to deal with them.
Speaker 2: And and at a certain point, your life can't be
Speaker 2: your grandmother's or your or your mama's life. You got
Speaker 2: to take responsibility for your life. And what do I
Speaker 2: want to do? What I want better? I want better,
Speaker 2: I want more than what my grandma mede than my
Speaker 2: mother dealt with and knows about. And that's the journey.
Speaker 2: Life's journey begins, is beginning for you. And that's why
Speaker 2: we're going around the country talking to let men and
Speaker 2: women and people know life is not exact all that
Speaker 2: just this where you your parents were able to bring
Speaker 2: you to and everybody and it don't have two parents,
Speaker 2: some people don't have parents at all. But it begins
Speaker 2: with a discussion. Let's start talking about get some tools
Speaker 2: and let's hear your pain so we can begin to
Speaker 2: give you ideas and tools to begin to go. Okay,
Speaker 2: let me take another step. I want to take another step,
Speaker 2: because if you don't want to take those steps, it's done.
Speaker 2: Can anybody make you do nothing? But we're here to
Speaker 2: say it's possible.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this, what is it that makes
Speaker 1: you think you don't have the strength to carry yourself
Speaker 1: to where you need to be. Is there a particular
Speaker 1: thought or feeling? Is it something you were taught or told?
Speaker 1: What makes you think that you don't have the strength.
Speaker 4: When I get told that you ain't sugar honey iced tea,
Speaker 4: I ask myself reassure myself that that is not true.
Speaker 4: But what I tend to do is that I tend
Speaker 4: to look away and turn the cheek and then slowly
Speaker 4: turn my head to think is that possibly true? And
Speaker 4: I think I started to lean into it, and instead
Speaker 4: of becoming what I was accused of, I just was
Speaker 4: defensive not I now know spent overspent my energy to
Speaker 4: the point that I realized that emotional currency, that strength
Speaker 4: is being depleted. I'm starting to overdraft now. I can't
Speaker 4: wait to move gone, but knowing that I haven't moved
Speaker 4: a single inch.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, the victory is you're here. The victory
Speaker 2: is that you're here, you're on the phone with us.
Speaker 2: The victory is you took the step to call. You
Speaker 2: didn't have to call. That lets us know that, lets
Speaker 2: me know that you're you're ready for the next step.
Speaker 2: You can't go any further, that's what you're saying. You've
Speaker 2: gone as far as you can go by yourself, and
Speaker 2: doctor Robin he needs some tools to go further. You
Speaker 2: want to go, but you're emotionally spent from trying to
Speaker 2: do it yourself, and the people that around you can't
Speaker 2: help you because they tell you you ain't sugar honey
Speaker 2: iced tea. But you know in your spirit you are,
Speaker 2: so doctor Robin, help, let's give my man some tools.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you know. I Courtney, thank you for reminding
Speaker 3: us how important the tools are, and also that it's
Speaker 3: important that we make the decision because it is a choice, Jonathan,
Speaker 3: we can end up being. I think one of the
Speaker 3: biggest addictions is the addiction to our suffering. And I
Speaker 3: want you to be aware that you've become comfortable even
Speaker 3: though you're hurting, You've become comfortable with your ache. And
Speaker 3: so part of what Courtney and I am the Invisible
Speaker 3: Ache is all about. It is becoming uncomfortable with suffering.
Speaker 3: It is becoming uncomfortable with aching being how you live
Speaker 3: your life. So one of the tools, and Courtney said this,
Speaker 3: that the people who are not affirming you, I'm wondering,
Speaker 3: is there anyone in your life who does affirm you?
Speaker 3: As we've talked about maybe some of the people who don't,
Speaker 3: But who's healthy in your life, who's doing their own work,
Speaker 3: who's been to therapy, who is telling the truth about
Speaker 3: their invisible aid, that's in your life?
Speaker 4: Honestly, that will be my life. She's been a great
Speaker 4: support system, she's been a great witness to what I've
Speaker 4: been through and unfortunately my suffering was weaponized on her
Speaker 4: throughout the years. Is because I always would look at
Speaker 4: her and say, you don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 4: You don't know what you're talking about. That family, you know, now,
Speaker 4: I'm always going to have them until you wake up.
Speaker 3: So right now, so I hear it got weaponized. But
Speaker 3: you know, you have a lot of insight. This is
Speaker 3: what's good. Not only did you call, you have a
Speaker 3: lot of insight. And you recognize that your wife is
Speaker 3: your partner. She's part of the blueprint for your liberation.
Speaker 3: Did you know that.
Speaker 4: I've seen that, Yes, and I wanted to recognize it
Speaker 4: because I feel like I never gave her enough credit
Speaker 4: because she's always working under blueprint.
Speaker 3: And this is I want to caution you. The past
Speaker 3: beckons all of us to come laid down in it
Speaker 3: and stay. And so I just want to invite you.
Speaker 3: Courtney could be talking today not about his father's death
Speaker 3: by suicide thirty three years ago and his godson suicide.
Speaker 3: Courtney could end other things that he shares in the
Speaker 3: invisible way. He could nurse and rehearse that trauma. So Jonathan,
Speaker 3: I one tool. I'm going to ask you to begin
Speaker 3: to withdraw from the addiction of nursing and rehearsing what
Speaker 3: didn't go well yesterday or ten years ago. See what
Speaker 3: we focus on grows, and what grows has dominion over us,
Speaker 3: and what is growing in your life before today? What's
Speaker 3: the trauma? Today? Now is a new day, and the
Speaker 3: tools are how do you starve the lie and feed
Speaker 3: the truth.
Speaker 1: We'll talk about that when we come back. Welcome back
Speaker 1: to the R spot. Let's get back to the conversation.
Speaker 3: You have a wife who is your partner in truth
Speaker 3: and in integrity, so you can apologize to her when
Speaker 3: we're finished. You can say, you know what, not only
Speaker 3: did I wake up, I'm woke, like all the way awake,
Speaker 3: and now I'm ready to move forward, not denying the past.
Speaker 3: But the past is over. You have the opportunity now
Speaker 3: to nurse and rehearse what is genuinely true about you.
Speaker 4: We'll do first.
Speaker 1: I want you to know that you were heard, but
Speaker 1: I want to hear what did you hear? Doctor Robins
Speaker 1: saying you don't have to repeat her words, but I
Speaker 1: just want to see how it lands in your body, how.
Speaker 4: It lends in my head? Is that to deny the
Speaker 4: past is a form of way of that. I've always
Speaker 4: been able to lie to myself because I always denying
Speaker 4: it and I always lie in it at the same time.
Speaker 4: And I think what we need to do is that
Speaker 4: what I need to do is that I need to
Speaker 4: focus on the future, and the future is the only
Speaker 4: mouldible truth that I could still make to myself to
Speaker 4: this day. And when it comes to what she said
Speaker 4: earlier about repurposing my language, I think, and I think,
Speaker 4: I know I would need to turn my anger into
Speaker 4: motivation to do better. And I can no longer continue
Speaker 4: to weaponize my suffering onto myself and others. That's how
Speaker 4: I internalize my God.
Speaker 3: All I want to say, my God, Jonathan, we need
Speaker 3: to just get up right now, because this is the beginning.
Speaker 3: You've caught yourself, you are coaching yourself. You're ready, You're there.
Speaker 3: And I'm not saying there's no work. Look, I'm doing
Speaker 3: work every day of my life to be more of
Speaker 3: who I am. But you have in you the spirit
Speaker 3: of truth, and you've got the courage to lift whatever
Speaker 3: burdens have been on you, to roll them off and
Speaker 3: move on. I hear it, I see it. It's exciting.
Speaker 4: It does feel good to speak on this. Like again,
Speaker 4: my wife has been a great outlet, but it's you know,
Speaker 4: just you know, having three other outlets to know take
Speaker 4: turns in a very fair and you know, prompt way.
Speaker 4: It's been a bit of a relief as well.
Speaker 3: Did you ever think about going to therapy? Not long term,
Speaker 3: but just go sit somewhere where somebody is all about that?
Speaker 4: Yes, my wife, we are considering couple's therapy just to
Speaker 4: keep things good, just to know, make sure things are
Speaker 4: still in balance. And I also have my own therapist
Speaker 4: on my own base. I'm in a military, but I
Speaker 4: also have my own military therapist as well. And I'm
Speaker 4: looking to help try to mitigate this the situations that
Speaker 4: I might bring out in my words and try to
Speaker 4: you know, use those outlets along with my wife and
Speaker 4: sources like you guys, and soon will be a new
Speaker 4: purchase of your Invisible Age. I will try to use
Speaker 4: as many resources as I can to try to learn
Speaker 4: something new every day because I'm not living if I'm
Speaker 4: not learning about myself. Now that's something I do. That's
Speaker 4: a long journey. I want to continue. With my wife, no, no,
Speaker 4: with herd hand and with myself. Even she even says
Speaker 4: she doesn't have to be here, but as long as
Speaker 4: she knows that I'm having some type of journey, because
Speaker 4: I can tell that my journey is long through.
Speaker 1: If I could leave you with three things, it would
Speaker 1: be this. Number one, everybody's got issues, so you haven't
Speaker 1: done anything wrong. The other thing is you are not
Speaker 1: the only one in the room who has this issue,
Speaker 1: who has these challenges. The third thing is to just
Speaker 1: be mindful where you're working with and living from an
Speaker 1: outdated program. That's what doctor Robin was saying, focusing on
Speaker 1: the hurt you are living with an outdated programs. I
Speaker 1: want to encourage you to do your counseling, coaching therapy.
Speaker 1: That's number one. Number two, get a copy of The
Speaker 1: Invisible Ache and start working through it. And number three,
Speaker 1: in January, come join the book club and we're going
Speaker 1: to work through it and get it done. I hope
Speaker 1: this has been helpful for you, Jonathan.
Speaker 4: This is very much as.
Speaker 1: Thank you for calling and be sure to tune in
Speaker 1: and listen to the art spot.
Speaker 2: Thank you for sharing.
Speaker 4: You all have been an absolute pleasure. Have every rest of today, Okay,
Speaker 4: thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1: From you, Courtney, as as men begin to read this book,
Speaker 1: because I'm gonna make sure that they get it read
Speaker 1: anybody with two eyeballs. My favorite chapter is makes me
Speaker 1: want to holler. But anyway, as men go through this,
Speaker 1: what do you want them to walk away with themselves?
Speaker 2: The victory of themselves that they they can reclaim or
Speaker 2: claim that the freedom of the fulfillment of being able
Speaker 2: to stand and you know, and and you know, I'm
Speaker 2: I'm always evolving and I do that by just breathing
Speaker 2: and living and reading and the excitement of you know,
Speaker 2: of seeing the where the world is is going and
Speaker 2: at this and not our bishop years ago said you
Speaker 2: got to look at you got to look at the
Speaker 2: way when people do things psych a psychiatrists or a psychologists,
Speaker 2: and when people disappoint your and say things that are crazy,
Speaker 2: you just go, isn't that interesting? Because they're always there
Speaker 2: are The world is going to be? Is it was
Speaker 2: this way when you got here, This is going to
Speaker 2: be this way when you leave it. So it's not
Speaker 2: don't get depressed about the world. The world was was
Speaker 2: the world we inherited. My generation inherited was Vietnam, Watergate assassinations, riots,
Speaker 2: and so it's there's there's no difference. The only difference
Speaker 2: in that world. In this world is this phone. And
Speaker 2: the technology has shifted such that things are are happening
Speaker 2: so fast that we've got to emotionally do what we're
Speaker 2: doing now to recover ourselves so that this phone doesn't
Speaker 2: wag the dog. This phone is wagging us. We've got
Speaker 2: to wag the phone. This is my phone, and it's
Speaker 2: just a phone. It doesn't control me. And so that's
Speaker 2: the journey of just getting back ourselves, talking to each other,
Speaker 2: getting truths as opposed to lies and misconceptions, and being
Speaker 2: able to go, oh wow, I didn't know. Can I
Speaker 2: do that? I can say that? Okay, I mean that's
Speaker 2: the journey.
Speaker 1: Doc, Doctor Robin, I want to I want you to
Speaker 1: give me this specifically, how do they begin to identify
Speaker 1: the ache? Because so many men don't even have the
Speaker 1: emotional language, they don't have the vocabulary. What do they
Speaker 1: need to do to begin to identify that ache?
Speaker 3: The question that we ask in the invisible ache is
Speaker 3: not do you hurt, because we already know that, but
Speaker 3: where does it hurt? That's question that's really where does
Speaker 3: it hurt? So I'm not asking you to tell me
Speaker 3: if you hurt. I already know that. So when a
Speaker 3: man or a boy is asked by his parents or
Speaker 3: his partner, where does it hurt and how does that
Speaker 3: hurt show up, it's a very different question that opens
Speaker 3: the door for curiosity and compassion to be curious about
Speaker 3: the internal world. Like the person might say, I don't
Speaker 3: know where it hurts. Okay, Well that's new information, not
Speaker 3: that it doesn't hurt, but you're learning that you don't
Speaker 3: have language for emotions, that that was taken from you.
Speaker 3: I also know that a lot of the violence that
Speaker 3: we're seeing with black men and black boys ultimately really
Speaker 3: is it is the invisible eche that had nowhere to go.
Speaker 3: I often say that if we could take for all
Speaker 3: the bullets that are shot from guns, and those bullets
Speaker 3: could be tagged with feelings of humiliation, embarrassment, not being
Speaker 3: good enough, feeling like a loser. And I mean, if
Speaker 3: we could attach those feelings and allow men again to
Speaker 3: be whole, to have their holes, which is a holy journey.
Speaker 3: And the other thing, Eanla, that I want to just
Speaker 3: remind all of your listeners is that the invisible ache
Speaker 3: is really about calling all people, but all black men
Speaker 3: and boys and those who love them to the floor
Speaker 3: of their own life. It's like an alter call. Not
Speaker 3: where you are coming down to receive the God of
Speaker 3: your youth or the God of your adulthood. You're coming down,
Speaker 3: as Courtney just said, to reunite or to unite for
Speaker 3: the first time, with yourself. You're coming to the floor
Speaker 3: of your own life and to the table that maybe
Speaker 3: you were not allowed to your own table, that someone
Speaker 3: disenfranchised you from, and now we're talking about come come
Speaker 3: back to yourself, come to your table, and come to
Speaker 3: the floor of your own life to have your holes
Speaker 3: h O l ees longing to be whole, whol e,
Speaker 3: which is a holy hol y journey.
Speaker 1: If they don't remember nothing else, they got to remember that.
Speaker 1: You know. A friend of mine heard the call out
Speaker 1: for the show yesterday and he sent me a text
Speaker 1: last night that just blew me out of the park.
Speaker 1: He said, here's my ache. I've learned that there is
Speaker 1: a distinction between failing and being a failing, and for
Speaker 1: most of my life I have felt like a failure.
Speaker 1: I want to know how to overcome that feeling. This
Speaker 1: man is seventy something years old, so I went to
Speaker 1: the book and this is what I said, because this
Speaker 1: is what you wrote, ask for help. That's number one.
Speaker 1: Number two, say it out loud. Thank you for saying
Speaker 1: it out loud. Number three, don't assume that it can't
Speaker 1: be healed. And don't deny that you wanted to be healed.
Speaker 1: You wrote that. You said a denial can serve a
Speaker 1: person's purpose. I said, but don't deny that you wanted
Speaker 1: to be healed. I said to him, carve out in
Speaker 1: authentic space for yourself with other men, with somebody you love,
Speaker 1: so that you can talk. And then I said, get
Speaker 1: thee to a therapist.
Speaker 3: But you know the other thing he did. He reached
Speaker 3: out to a safe space, and that was you. And
Speaker 3: to me, safety is the prerequisite of the work. If
Speaker 3: I don't feel safe to tell someone I hurt, That's
Speaker 3: what he was saying, I hurt. I used to think
Speaker 3: I was the failure and the fact you were safe
Speaker 3: that he could articulate that is again the beginning of
Speaker 3: his own liberation and healing.
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being here. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm on a crusade every everybody with two eyeballs. I've
Speaker 1: got to have this book and then we're going to
Speaker 1: come together. I don't know how I'm going to invite
Speaker 1: you to join the book club. Thank you, Courtney for
Speaker 1: your authentic honesty, your transparency, and your commitment to your
Speaker 1: own healing, which I think is a demonstration. Doctor Robin,
Speaker 1: you know you were, you are and have always been
Speaker 1: a powerful teacher in my life. At a time in
Speaker 1: my life when you could have really condemned me, you didn't.
Speaker 1: You gave me the space to grow. And I've never
Speaker 1: been the same. You know what I'm talking about. I've
Speaker 1: never been the same. And I thank you, I honor you,
Speaker 1: and deep vow to both of you for just being here.
Speaker 1: And we'll be in touch real soon. Loves love you back.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love you so much, and thank this honor
Speaker 3: and and know that I grew you and I have
Speaker 3: grown together because of each other. Yes and through each other.
Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, Yes, thank you, thank you, love you, Bye
Speaker 1: bye the Invisible Ache. I want to talk to women
Speaker 1: for a moment. I want to talk to women for
Speaker 1: a moment because one of the things that I noticed
Speaker 1: when I put the call up last night, women, can
Speaker 1: I come and get helpful my brother, and can I
Speaker 1: come and talk about my husd and can I come
Speaker 1: and do this? That and the other thing. And the
Speaker 1: thing that I want to say to us, to my
Speaker 1: sister women is yes, you can read the invisible ache,
Speaker 1: and yes you can get some insights. But I also
Speaker 1: encourage us and invite us to learn how to be
Speaker 1: a safe space for our father's brothers, husbands, sons, nephews,
Speaker 1: grandsons without having to control it. I think what the
Speaker 1: Invisible Eight talks about is giving men the space to,
Speaker 1: as doctor Robin said, come to the altar of their
Speaker 1: own life. And I know for me as a mother
Speaker 1: and when I was a wife, sometimes I was so
Speaker 1: afraid that he wasn't going to make it that I
Speaker 1: jumped in to break his fall, or to make it happened,
Speaker 1: or to make it look the way I thought it
Speaker 1: to look it needed to look. So, women, I want
Speaker 1: to say to you, let's not do this. Let's be
Speaker 1: aware of the ache, but let's give the men the
Speaker 1: room and the space and the opportunity to build their
Speaker 1: own inner altar, to build their strength again, to fill
Speaker 1: their holes and find their own wholeness. Let them have
Speaker 1: this holy journey, and let us as women know how
Speaker 1: to walk with them, not on them, not over them,
Speaker 1: and not for them. I think that as men begin
Speaker 1: to identify their pain and their pain, is it more
Speaker 1: important than our pain? Please don't hear that, because I
Speaker 1: saw that also in the call out why women have
Speaker 1: pain too? Women have an invisiy. Yeah, yeah, we do.
Speaker 1: And we have had spaces and times and opportunity for
Speaker 1: so long to address that. So let's not get into
Speaker 1: the duality of comparing and competing compartition, Not competition or comparison,
Speaker 1: but compartition, where we're competing pain and comparing pain. Let's
Speaker 1: get in our circles and let's continue to do our
Speaker 1: healing work, recognizing that healing circles are somewhat new for
Speaker 1: many men. And let us be a support, let us
Speaker 1: be a safe place, let us be their prayer partners
Speaker 1: as opposed to those who think we need to control them.
Speaker 1: The Invisible ache Black Men identifying their pain and reclaiming
Speaker 1: their power. It's available both as a book or on
Speaker 1: kind audio. I want to thank doctor Robin L. Smith
Speaker 1: and Courtney B. Vance for joining us today. I want
Speaker 1: you to go back, listen, take notes. Mothers, take notes, mothers,
Speaker 1: take notes wives, so that you can learn how to
Speaker 1: be with a man as he identifies his invisible ache.
Speaker 1: Thank you for tuning in. I will see you next
Speaker 1: time and in the meantime, stay in peace and not pieces.
Speaker 1: The R Spot is a production of Shondaland Audio in
Speaker 1: partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.