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Speaker 1: On this episode of News World, We're going to get

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Speaker 1: serious about facing America's greatest threat, China. On July first,

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Speaker 1: in Beijing, the Chinese celebrated the one hundredth anniversary of

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Speaker 1: the founding of the Chinese Communist Party, and I think

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Speaker 1: with that centennial celebration, it's a good time for the

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Speaker 1: United States to discuss the scale of the threat and

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Speaker 1: the complexity of the threat we are facing. In twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 1: I published the book Trump Versus China with Claire Christiansen,

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Speaker 1: and I spent a lot of my time looking at

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Speaker 1: the issues we're facing with China. The Belton Road Initiative,

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Speaker 1: the take over the South China Sea, economic aggression, and

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Speaker 1: the militarization of space, just to name a few topics.

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Speaker 1: Since writing the book, Claire Christensen, who is the co

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Speaker 1: author of Trump Versus China and part of my team

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Speaker 1: here in Englishman sixty, has continued to maintain a network

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Speaker 1: of other China watchers and has continued to track the

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Speaker 1: evolution of China and their goals to become the world's

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Speaker 1: next great superpower. And she has really been a voice

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Speaker 1: for why the United States needs to overcome the greatest

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Speaker 1: obstacle to the Chinese threat ourselves. I'm really pleased to

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Speaker 1: welcome my guest, Claire Christensen. Claire, thank you for taking

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Speaker 1: time to hang out with me today. Thank you, Nude.

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Speaker 1: I'm thrilled to be here today. So I want to start.

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Speaker 1: You know, you've been looking at China, You've thought about it,

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Speaker 1: You've had many lunches and dinners with people, many of

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Speaker 1: whom actually come from China, and I'm just curious compared

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Speaker 1: to back when you first started looking at China would

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Speaker 1: have been the biggest changes in your own mind about

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Speaker 1: how you think about China. So you'll recall you and

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Speaker 1: I started really diving into China back in the fall

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Speaker 1: of twenty seventeen. At that time, President Trump had just

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Speaker 1: come into office, and we had just started turning the

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Speaker 1: tide of the conversation towards recognizing the threat that communist

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Speaker 1: China was becoming. President Trump obviously had a large part

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Speaker 1: in that, and I think as the past four years

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Speaker 1: now have gone by, what we've realized is first and

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Speaker 1: foremost that China is committed to its totalitarianism, that their

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Speaker 1: system of Marxism and Leninist ideology of power is ultimately

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Speaker 1: what is going to carry them through to achieve their

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Speaker 1: goal in twenty forty nine, which is global domination. To

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Speaker 1: put it bluntly, I think as the time has gone on,

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Speaker 1: we've started to see more and more of what that

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Speaker 1: type of strategy entails, and more and more people are

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Speaker 1: becoming aware of the threat that communist China poses to

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Speaker 1: not just the government, not just the intelligence communities, but

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Speaker 1: to every single American. I think people have really started

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Speaker 1: to wake up to this challenge, and especially since the

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Speaker 1: emergence of the pandemic back in fall of twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 1: people have just started to realize the dangers that China poses.

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Speaker 1: It's not just a human rights issue, but it's also

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Speaker 1: a real national security threat. I'm curious you've watched now

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Speaker 1: for four years as Jianping has been evolving, and of

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Speaker 1: course his big moment celebrating the hundredth anniversary, which are away?

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Speaker 1: Do you think? For example, but the Soviet Union came

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Speaker 1: and went, the Chinese are not only there, but they're

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Speaker 1: successfully there, and they're growing in economic and military power.

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Speaker 1: How do you explain Jiping and what is it you

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Speaker 1: look for when you look at his speeches or you

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Speaker 1: read about stories about him? Yeah, so a couple of things. First,

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Speaker 1: when you look at the English translations of some of

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Speaker 1: the speeches that chi Jingping puts out and the Chinese

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Speaker 1: Communist parties propaganda apparatuses, oftentimes the English translations will be

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Speaker 1: different than what's actually translated in Chinese. So, for example,

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Speaker 1: there were a lot of bombastic rhetoric that chi Jingping

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Speaker 1: apparently ad lived throughout his speech that he gave on

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Speaker 1: the one hundredth anniversary celebrations that were held earlier in July,

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Speaker 1: and some of those phrases were seized upon in Western media.

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Speaker 1: So the bashing of skulls and the firewall of one

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Speaker 1: point four billion Chinese citizens. What we have to look

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Speaker 1: for when we're looking at those speeches is when she

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Speaker 1: really evokes that sense of nationalist rhetoric. That goes to

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Speaker 1: show China watchers and people who are looking at this

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Speaker 1: issue that ultimately what chi Jingping is trying to do

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Speaker 1: is really evoke a sense of nationalism within the Chinese people.

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Speaker 1: Because the Chinese Communist Party and with Shi jing Ping

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Speaker 1: at the helm, we have to remember the structure of power.

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Speaker 1: As you and I have talked about often, Shijing Ping

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Speaker 1: is first and foremost the general Secretary of the Chinese

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Speaker 1: Communist Party with ninety five million members. Now it's grown

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Speaker 1: since we wrote the book a couple of years ago.

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Speaker 1: The Chinese Communist Party ultimately roots its power on two factors,

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Speaker 1: one a sense of nationalism, and two economic superiority and

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Speaker 1: economic progress. So when the scales of the balance tip

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Speaker 1: one way or the other, when the economy is not

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Speaker 1: doing really well, you can bet that they're going to

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Speaker 1: really try to amp up that nationalist rhetoric and try

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Speaker 1: to really evoke a sense of pride within the Chinese

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Speaker 1: Communist Party and all of its members. So when I

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Speaker 1: saw the speech that came out earlier this week, that

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Speaker 1: was kind of my biggest takeaway from some of the

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Speaker 1: rhetoric that he used. Do you think that we overstate

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Speaker 1: the rhetoric. It's kind of interesting that it's their translations.

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Speaker 1: So if they're adding Bulaco's terms to his speech that

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Speaker 1: did not exist in the Chinese speech, you sort of

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Speaker 1: have to wonder what were the instructions to the propaganda department, right,

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Speaker 1: And I think looking at Chinese propaganda and some of

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Speaker 1: the different avenues that they use to try to get

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Speaker 1: those headlines. So Wolf Warrior Diplomacy was kind of this

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Speaker 1: bombastic rhetoric that was deployed in the early days of

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Speaker 1: the coronavirus pandemic, particularly a god of coverage back in

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Speaker 1: March and April, and a lot of those very inflammatory

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Speaker 1: statements were ironically used by diplomats on Twitter, which is

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Speaker 1: banned in China. So you can kind of see where

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Speaker 1: they're directing that type of rhetoric, if they're directing it

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Speaker 1: towards the more Western speaking countries, if they're putting it

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Speaker 1: up on Twitter or on different English speaking publications, or

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Speaker 1: if they're doing it to target more to their Chinese audiences,

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Speaker 1: in which case they'll start publishing it in Chinese speaking outlets.

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Speaker 1: So recognizing the distinction is really important. The Chinese have

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Speaker 1: a very controlled and very large propaganda apparatus, especially in

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Speaker 1: the United States, to China in twenty twenty actually spent

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Speaker 1: more than any other country on lobbying and propaganda work

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Speaker 1: here in the United States. So I think recognizing the

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Speaker 1: nuances in some of the language that's used. Another great

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Speaker 1: example that we wrote about in the book as well.

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Speaker 1: It's very subtled, but the difference between the China Dream

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Speaker 1: and the Chinese dream. So when Chinese propaganda outlets its

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Speaker 1: do Sheinwa, The Global Times, People's Daily, etc. Write about

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Speaker 1: the Chinese Dream. In English publications, they use the words

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Speaker 1: Chinese dream, and the Chinese Dream is Jijingping's essential goal

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Speaker 1: to rejuvenate the Chinese nation. It was talked a lot

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Speaker 1: about during his speech, and also it's been a cornerstone

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Speaker 1: of what the Chinese Communist Party is working for. So

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Speaker 1: when they write about it in Chinese propaganda outlets in

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Speaker 1: English speaking countries, they use the words Chinese dream, which

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Speaker 1: gives people the sense that this is a dream of

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Speaker 1: the Chinese people, but in reality, when you directly translate

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Speaker 1: the characters, it translates to China Dream, which has more

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Speaker 1: of a removed kind of sense. So it's those little

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Speaker 1: nuances that we need to really be careful to look for,

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Speaker 1: and that's one of the things. The language barrier is

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Speaker 1: something that's really challenging when we're dealing with China, and

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Speaker 1: particularly in our intelligence communities, and from a policy perspective

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Speaker 1: as well, it's hard to find really good Chinese speakers.

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Speaker 1: We do have many talented people who do understand the language,

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Speaker 1: but it's very complicated and it's difficult to understand recognizing

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Speaker 1: the nuances in those language and building up more Chinese

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Speaker 1: speakers will really help us in this long term challenge

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Speaker 1: that we're going to be facing. When you look at

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Speaker 1: the reality you see in China, are you surprised by

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Speaker 1: people like the CEO of Nike who said that Nike

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Speaker 1: is totally committed to China and Nike is a part

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Speaker 1: of China. Oh yeah, there was a great phrase. Values

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Speaker 1: are only important and only relevant when it comes to

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Speaker 1: making the hard decisions. Values only matter when you're faced

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Speaker 1: with a decision that affects either your bottom line or

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Speaker 1: it requires adhering to whatever those values are. So when

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Speaker 1: I see people like the CEO of Nike, Disney, the

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Speaker 1: head of the NBA, all of these big corporations siding

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Speaker 1: with their corporate bottom line and just willfully turning a

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Speaker 1: blind eye to the egregious behavior of the Chinese Communist Party,

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Speaker 1: it's really shocking, and ultimately, I think it's really disheartening

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Speaker 1: and it's really sad because that's a clear indication of

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Speaker 1: the challenges that we're facing in our own country, which

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Speaker 1: is attacks against patriotism throughout the Olympic trials. When you

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Speaker 1: have people that are disgracing the American flag, and you

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Speaker 1: have critical race theory emerging in our schools. Begin to

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Speaker 1: wonder where is this going to go in the future,

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Speaker 1: What is going to happen If we don't have a

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Speaker 1: sense of pride in our own country, how are we

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Speaker 1: going to be able to overcome them. You send me

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Speaker 1: a note the other day that the difference in the

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Speaker 1: size of the American and Chinese navies has been transitioning

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Speaker 1: at really a startling rate. Do you sense that they

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Speaker 1: actually intend to be capable of challenging us? Let's see, yes,

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Speaker 1: most definitely. But I think the way that we look

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Speaker 1: at their abilities to challenge us at sea is different.

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Speaker 1: In some of our military planning, China has a doctrine

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Speaker 1: essentially where it goes back to sun Zoo. The greatest

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Speaker 1: generals win bloodless victories. So ultimately their goal is to

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Speaker 1: build up a military fleet so large, so capable that

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Speaker 1: they will be able to overtake us without even having

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Speaker 1: to fire a shot. And you look at all the

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Speaker 1: different port acquisitions that are going on worldwide, how they're

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Speaker 1: building those up. You look at the fishing fleets, which

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Speaker 1: all have a maritime military capability as well, and you

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Speaker 1: start to see as they're building all of these different

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Speaker 1: avenues up, eventually they'll just be able to encircle us

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Speaker 1: and we won't be able to do anything about it,

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Speaker 1: and they'll be able to just make the first move

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Speaker 1: on the South China. See strategy where they are gradually

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Speaker 1: and methodically building islands and building here fields. By making

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Speaker 1: it a fact that they're so dominant in the South China,

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Speaker 1: see that they ultimately they will be able to claim

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Speaker 1: a kind of sovereignty. But supposedly they just sent two

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand more troops to the Indian Chinese border, and

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Speaker 1: those troops are up at eight nine ten thousand feet

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Speaker 1: in the middle of the Himalayan Mountains. I mean, first

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Speaker 1: of all, they're now more Indians than Chinese. India is

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Speaker 1: a more chaotic country than China, and I don't quite

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Speaker 1: understand what the Chinese think they're going to gain. There

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Speaker 1: are a lot of places if I were China, I'd

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Speaker 1: be sort of placing some bets. I'm not sure the

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Speaker 1: Himalayan Mountains would be one of them. Right. Fourteen country

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Speaker 1: border China. Historically they've always been concerned about border incursions.

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Speaker 1: I agree with you that strategically placing troops up in

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Speaker 1: the Himalayan mountains, especially when winter is going to be

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Speaker 1: here sooner than we know, it might not be the

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Speaker 1: most effective allocation of resources, but nonetheless, going back to

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Speaker 1: some of the sense of nationalism, the sense of pride,

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Speaker 1: I think that securing their borders is something that's really

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Speaker 1: really important, specifically with India as well. And the Indian

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Speaker 1: media has also been really lambasting some of the border

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Speaker 1: crises as well. So it's important to China. They have

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Speaker 1: a stake in this dispute, So it's important to not

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Speaker 1: back down and to not be seen as weak. Do

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Speaker 1: you got a significant Chinese investment in Indian border, a

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Speaker 1: real effort to sort of eliminate the Tibetan Buddhist system

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Speaker 1: and replace it with the Han system, continuing struggle to

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Speaker 1: totally change the weakers and the whole process in the West,

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Speaker 1: And in fact, I'd raised the question whether the Chinese

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Speaker 1: would fill the vacuum in Afghanistan if we pulled out,

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Speaker 1: And one of the points somebody made to me is

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Speaker 1: since everybody in Afghanistan is a devout Muslim, the Chinese

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Speaker 1: would be varied very risk averse to get that involved

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Speaker 1: with Muslims because they find dealing with religions so difficult.

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Speaker 1: But you keep coming all the ways, sweeping around, and

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Speaker 1: what's amazing is nonely are there in the South with

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Speaker 1: the South China See strategy. But they are becoming a

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Speaker 1: major player in the Arctic. I think they currently have

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Speaker 1: more ice breakers being built than any other country in

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Speaker 1: the world. And you'd look where China as you think,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is really sort of a reach. But

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Speaker 1: somebody pointed out to me the day, because the world

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Speaker 1: is round, if you can break open the Arctic from

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Speaker 1: a Chinese perspective, you then can ship to Europe at

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Speaker 1: about half the time. But the whole notion of China

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Speaker 1: going from a South China Sea power to an Arctic

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Speaker 1: power is just an illustration of I think the scale

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Speaker 1: of effort that's underway in Chinese society. When I first

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Speaker 1: started talking with people when we were researching for the book,

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Speaker 1: some people attempted to make the argument that China just

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Speaker 1: seek to be a regional power, so arguing that they

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Speaker 1: were focused primarily in the South China Sea. But as

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Speaker 1: you dive into all the different places just throughout the

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Speaker 1: world that China is involved in, you start to see

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Speaker 1: that China has a global strategy. Going back to the

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Speaker 1: language they often talk about creating a community with a

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Speaker 1: shared future for humankind, which is basically translated as a

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Speaker 1: China led global order. If we have to look at

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Speaker 1: everything that China is doing from not just a regional perspective,

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Speaker 1: but also looking at it from a global perspective, but

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Speaker 1: also taking into account not just the military ambitions, but

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Speaker 1: all of these different avenues which they are employing in

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Speaker 1: order to essentially assert their twenty forty nine ultimate goal.

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Speaker 1: And part of that hearkens back to nineteen ninety nine,

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Speaker 1: two kernels in China's military wrote a book called Unrestricted Warfare,

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Speaker 1: and essentially what unrestricted warfare argues is there are virtually

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Speaker 1: endless domains by which battles can be fought, not just

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Speaker 1: traditional military troops battling it out like we traditionally think of.

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Speaker 1: So when you look at the economy, when you look

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Speaker 1: at information warfare, lawfare, and also the military strategies as well,

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Speaker 1: and you start to kind of piece these all together,

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Speaker 1: you start to see that not only is China geographically

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Speaker 1: going out all throughout the world, but also they are

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Speaker 1: using a variety of different strategies and a variety of

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Speaker 1: different methods that we don't traditionally associate with warfare in

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Speaker 1: order to challenge democracies and free loving countries throughout the world.

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Speaker 1: You know, I was right struck when Clista was the

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Speaker 1: ambassador to the Vatican and we were living in Italy.

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Speaker 1: The Chinese showed up and took over management of the

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Speaker 1: two largest ports in Italy. So they now manage Venice

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Speaker 1: and they manage Genoa, which is the biggest port in Italy,

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Speaker 1: and in Venice. I've been told, and I don't have

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Speaker 1: proof of this, but I've been told below the water

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Speaker 1: they're digging in and actually building facilities that are in

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Speaker 1: the ground below the sea around Venice, and they just

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Speaker 1: have very large projects under way. And I think, by

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Speaker 1: a big margin, the largest number of ports that are

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Speaker 1: now being dredged are being dredged by Chinese. They have

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Speaker 1: a company. I'm assuming they subsidized it, but they have

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Speaker 1: a company now which dominates dredging worldwide, which also means

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Speaker 1: they're gathering up all those informations, I assume because they're

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Speaker 1: methodical and they're very smart. Somewhere in Beijing, all of

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Speaker 1: this port information now exists as intelligence, and I think

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Speaker 1: that's part of what we don't get that historically we

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Speaker 1: had a relatively thin defense system and the free enterprise

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Speaker 1: systems out there churning away and doing whatever work for

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Speaker 1: free enterprise, but it wasn't designed to be a power

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Speaker 1: extension or a military extension capability. And they come at this,

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Speaker 1: I think in ways that we just literally don't understand exactly.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that I always try to point

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Speaker 1: out to people, that's one of the first talking points

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Speaker 1: when I'm discussing China, is that there's no such thing

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Speaker 1: as a private sector in China. There is no such

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Speaker 1: thing as something that an entity that operates independent of

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Speaker 1: the reach of the Chinese Communist Party. And I think

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Speaker 1: you're exactly right. I think you have to look at

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Speaker 1: the potential dual use function of a lot of these

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Speaker 1: different ports, the potential dual use function of scientific research

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Speaker 1: and military research. They have a strategy that they term

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Speaker 1: as military civil fusion, essentially where they use scientific research

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Speaker 1: and different investments and private sector technology businesses, some of

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Speaker 1: there are nearly two hundred talent programs around the world.

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Speaker 1: They use all of the information that they glean from

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Speaker 1: those investments towards advancing their military ambitions as well. So

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Speaker 1: I think looking at the potential dual use for ports

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Speaker 1: around the world, economic investments, etc. Is something that's really important,

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Speaker 1: and I think it requires a big shift in how

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Speaker 1: we think about potentially innocuous actions and how they can

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Speaker 1: be used to our disadvantage. One of the greatest problems

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Speaker 1: that faces any country that has been very successful is

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Speaker 1: how to have a conversation with itself about a world

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Speaker 1: that's dangerous and all the internal advantages are in favor

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Speaker 1: of complacency and problem avoidance. I was very struck that

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Speaker 1: in the pre World War Two era there was a

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Speaker 1: joint Planning Board then between the Navy Department and the

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Speaker 1: War Department, and the joint Planning Board was supposed to

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Speaker 1: coordinate the services specifically as they related to the Philippines. Well,

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Speaker 1: it turned out after Pearl Harbor that the Army had

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Speaker 1: this terrific plan to defend the Philippines for three months

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Speaker 1: until the Navy arrived, and the Navy had this terrific

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Speaker 1: plan to arrive in three years, and that did not,

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Speaker 1: by the way, take into account losing most of their

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Speaker 1: battleships of Pearl Harbor. So they just thought it would

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Speaker 1: take three years to fight their way across the Pacific,

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Speaker 1: even with the full fleet. So here you have MacArthur

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Speaker 1: sitting out there with this great three year plan, which

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Speaker 1: probably wouldn't have worked anyway, but he's calling on the

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Speaker 1: Navy and learning, oh, yeah, we're going to be there

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Speaker 1: about three years from now. And it was just a

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Speaker 1: great reminder that bureaucracies have an enormous capacity to avoid reality.

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Speaker 1: Now it's even more powerful with the American people. When

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Speaker 1: the Japanese bombed the US naval gunboat Panay and Chinese

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Speaker 1: waters in nineteen thirty seven, gallop ran a question, and

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Speaker 1: instead of fighting that, the American people were enraged. Most

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Speaker 1: Americans were asking the question, why do we have a

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Speaker 1: warship in China? And so Roosevelt had no leverage. Was

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Speaker 1: the Japanese knew those numbers. They had no leverage in

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Speaker 1: going after the Japanese for having bombed an American warship

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Speaker 1: because the American people just didn't care. As late as

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirty nine, you had a very very large segment

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Speaker 1: of the American people who absolutely did not want to

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Speaker 1: help Great Britain or France against Nazi Germany. Sis said, basically,

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Speaker 1: that's a European problem, or we're sick and tired of it.

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Speaker 1: Being involved in World War One didn't help, and so

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Speaker 1: we're not going to be involved in their fighting. Let

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Speaker 1: them fight it out. So very significant, maybe thirty five

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Speaker 1: forty percent of the country, including many well known celebrities.

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Speaker 1: So we're now in a similar Ethach situation. It's quite

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Speaker 1: clear that China is getting more powerful, more aggressive, more formidable,

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Speaker 1: and it's also equally clear that the American elites are split.

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Speaker 1: They're almost as many pro Chinese in our senior leadership,

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Speaker 1: our CEOs, our celebrities, etc. As there were people who

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Speaker 1: were comfortable with Germany in nineteen thirty eight thirty nine

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Speaker 1: are comfortable with the Soviet Union in nineteen forty six

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Speaker 1: forty seven. And I think that's an enormous problem. Claire.

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Speaker 1: I want to get your feeling, because you talked to

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Speaker 1: so many people. What's it going to take for the

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Speaker 1: American people and the American elites to realize what a

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Speaker 1: significant challenge we have. Yeah. So, one of the kind

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Speaker 1: of results that happened after the coronavirus pandemic, and after

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Speaker 1: it was very clear the stent to which the Chinese

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Speaker 1: Communist Party lied about the emergence of the virus, covered

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Speaker 1: it up, and didn't do their due diligence to the

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Speaker 1: global international community in preventing this virus. What happened was

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Speaker 1: the American people their unfavorability ratings towards China skyrocketed to

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Speaker 1: historic highs. There was a pupil a couple months ago

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Speaker 1: that showed that eighty nine percent of the American people

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Speaker 1: distrust China and view them as a competitor or an adversary.

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Speaker 1: That's really significant. That's a big turning tide. Is that

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Speaker 1: a big jump from two or three years ago. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so it has been very significant. And President Trump throughout

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Speaker 1: his administration sounding the alarm bells on China. As I

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Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, I think that's going to be one of

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Speaker 1: his greatest lasting legacies. He really started this movement when

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Speaker 1: he wrote his National Security strategy back in December twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 1: And the problem just continued to be made more and

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Speaker 1: more a parent with no assistance from the mainstream media,

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Speaker 1: who chooses to ignore the problems with China for their

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Speaker 1: own self interest. But countering China is largely a bipartisan issue.

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Speaker 1: The challenges that we face, and the people who oppose

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Speaker 1: effective counter China strategy do not fall within the Democrat

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Speaker 1: and the Republican traditional party lines. Actually, last fall, Chairman

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Speaker 1: McCall's China Task Force report that came out had four

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Speaker 1: hundred recommendations on what to do with China legislatively, and

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Speaker 1: out of all of the legislative recommendations, half of those

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Speaker 1: were bipartisan. So it's not a Democrat versus Republican issue.

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Speaker 1: I like you mentioned, it is an issue with the elites,

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Speaker 1: the CEOs, the academics, the scientists, the researchers, sometimes journalists

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Speaker 1: who have an interest in maintaining the status quo that

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Speaker 1: we've had with communist China for so long. And it's

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Speaker 1: newing a sense of patriotism. It's encouraging a grassroots movement,

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Speaker 1: encouraging the American people to call their representatives. Have legislation

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Speaker 1: moved faster, get past faster. Right now, the congressional approach

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Speaker 1: is throwing billions of dollars at this problem, But ultimately

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Speaker 1: it's not just throwing money at the problem to increase

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Speaker 1: our research capabilities and what have you. It's about holding

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Speaker 1: our CEOs and our businesses accountable and really putting pressure

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Speaker 1: on them to change their behaviors and move out of China.

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Speaker 1: And do you see any real progress on that front

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Speaker 1: or do you see them just essentially ignoring public opinion.

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Speaker 1: I think they are unfortunately ignoring public opinion. I think

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Speaker 1: you look at what the Nike CEO said just a

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, that Nike is a company for China,

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Speaker 1: and it doesn't get more blunt than that. And the

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Speaker 1: challenge that we have is China is a country of

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Speaker 1: one point four billion people with a growing middle class,

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00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: people who have more purchasing power, So it's a very

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Speaker 1: attractive market for these big companies who want to make

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Speaker 1: a profit in China. Similarly with Hollywood, with China's growing

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Speaker 1: movie industry, more people going out to the movies and

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Speaker 1: buying tickets, Hollywood is more incentivized to tailor their storylines

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Speaker 1: in such a way that get by the Chinese censors

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Speaker 1: so that they can show their movies in China. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen much progress in companies growing a backbone

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00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: and deciding to stand up against China's human rights abuses.

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Speaker 1: Do you have these companies that are still continuing to

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Speaker 1: sponsor the Olympics in twenty twenty two in Beijing. Despite

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Speaker 1: all of the information that's come out about the weavers

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Speaker 1: and the horrific prisonment of millions of people in Western China,

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen much of a movement. But I think

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Speaker 1: that's where American consumers can go online, read some of

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Speaker 1: these websites that have these companies listed, such as China

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00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 1: owns Us, and make purchasing decisions on their own sense,

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Speaker 1: on their own decisions every day. I man, she for

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Speaker 1: a second. Has you've watched for the last four or

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Speaker 1: five years the evolution, both in his public speeches and

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Speaker 1: in the reports we get about his various meetings. How

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Speaker 1: do you assess him as a leader. He's got a

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Speaker 1: lot to lose at this point. He has been a

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Speaker 1: dramatic turn from the dan Chiaoping practice of fiding your

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Speaker 1: time and hiding your capabilities. Some people think that he's

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Speaker 1: shown his hand to early shown China's true ambitions under

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Speaker 1: the leadership of the Chinese Communist Party. I think he's

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Speaker 1: running a big risk. I think he's incredibly fragile. The

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Speaker 1: party itself is very fractured. There are some party elites

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Speaker 1: who believe that he has bitten off more than he

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Speaker 1: can chew, and that is going to have a real

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Speaker 1: uphill battle in the coming years. But there are others

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Speaker 1: who are really kind of seizing this opportunity of China's

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Speaker 1: coming out party. He's incredibly fragile. President Trump, actually, I

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Speaker 1: think was someone who Jijing Ping felt that he could

434
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: really deal with and felt that he was the only

435
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: Chinese Communist Party member who was capable of handling President Trump,

436
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: so to speak. Because President Trump was so dangerous to China,

437
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: because he was unpredictable, because he said what he thought,

438
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: and because he was not afraid of what the typical

439
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: elites in Washington, in New York and Silicon Valley would

440
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: come back and tell him. We'll see what happens with

441
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: President Biden. But General Secretary of Jijing Ping, I think

442
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: is really going to especially now with President Biden in office,

443
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: He's going to continue full force along his path towards

444
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 1: twenty forty nine. I have to ask you one last thing,

445
00:29:55,480 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: which is you've had a real chance to encounter this great,

446
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: complex civilization. Do you find it enjoyable or do you

447
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: find it sort of daunting. That's one of the things

448
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 1: that's so fascinating. It is daunting. I mean, it's a

449
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: civilization with a five thousand year long history. You've gone

450
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: through a lot of changes over the past seventy years

451
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 1: with the party in power. But what I find most

452
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: fascinating about studying China is the history of the Chinese people.

453
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 1: It's very complex, it's very robust. I have met a

454
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: lot of very kind, very inspiring Chinese activists as well.

455
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: But I find that when you study China, it does

456
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: touch a lot of different areas. It touches the human

457
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: rights issue, the religious freedom issue, it touches the economic issue,

458
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 1: the technology issue, space, military politics, as well different government systems.

459
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: So I do find it really fascinating when you put

460
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 1: all of those together, because you can't just look at

461
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: one siphoned off area of expertise with China. You have

462
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: to look at the whole picture because all elements work together. Well,

463
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 1: that's great, and frankly, your work has been invaluable that

464
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: together as a team we wrote a number one New

465
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: York Times bestseller. I think in the not too distant

466
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: future we may have another run at all those topics,

467
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 1: and also national security in general. You've really reached out

468
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: and trying to understand how we integrate our own thinking.

469
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: So I just want to thank you for sharing this update.

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00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: Thank you so much at letch do you for having

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00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: me on. Thank you to my guest Clara Christensen. You

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00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: can learn more about why China is America's Great as

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00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: Threat on our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld

474
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: is produced by Genglis Sweet sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive

475
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: producers Debbie Myers, our producer is Garnsey Sloan, and our

476
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was

477
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at

478
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: Gingwidge three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope

479
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: you'll go to Apple Podcasts and both rate us with

480
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: five stars and give us a review so others can

481
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of Newtsworld

482
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: can sign up from my three free weekly columns at

483
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: Gingwidge three sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingridge.

484
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 1: This is Newtsworld