1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: Oh, fellow conspiracy realist, let's have a big round of 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:10,399 Speaker 1: applause for the mainstream media whooa oh my god, or 3 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 1: the CIA. 4 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 2: Huh. 5 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: What's the difference. 6 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 2: Well, there's a big difference. One of those is an 7 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 2: intelligence agency. 8 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 1: Okay, yes, the other. 9 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 2: One reduces our intelligence little by little we turn it on. Sorry, 10 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 2: it's not really not really. 11 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 1: Kind of though. It's who knew the journalism would become 12 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 1: an endangered species in the United States other than pretty 13 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:42,840 Speaker 1: much every student of history. Yeah, so okay, So back 14 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, we were we were looking into something 15 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: that fascinated us. We had her whispers in the wind. 16 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: We had heard elusive statements about how the United States 17 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: is totally fine with marketing propaganda for foreign audiences, but 18 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: had a deal for a long time that doesn't exist anymore, 19 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: about how it could not advertise propaganda to a domestic population, 20 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: and about how they were super into you know, this 21 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: thing we called amusing the past tense freedom of the press. 22 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, there should be a separate thing, maybe almost a 23 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 2: fourth branch of the government. 24 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 1: Of technique, Yeah, immortal technique. Yes we're talking about yeah. Yeah, 25 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: These longstanding laws were eroding over time, in a very 26 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: quiet way. And in this episode your news agency or 27 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: the CIA, the story of Operation Mockingbird, we discover, to 28 00:01:55,120 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: our horror just how much of an influence US intelligence 29 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: agencies can have over the news you read every day. 30 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: And you know, Matt, I'd be really interested to revisit 31 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: this with the acceleration of social media, right, which is 32 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: now for a lot of people, it's a primary source 33 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: of news. So how is how are our friends at 34 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 1: the company. I haven't asked them. How are our friends 35 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: at the company touch in TikTok? 36 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 3: Right? 37 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: Other agencies touching touching TikTok and Facebook and all the hits. 38 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 2: I don't know now, correct me if I'm wrong here, Ben, 39 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 2: But what we're about to get into is when individuals 40 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 2: allegedly infiltrated like news operations, right. 41 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, what if anything just made it? At this point, 42 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 4: it just feels like they were just they were taking 43 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 4: extra steps, right because nowadays you just step in and 44 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 4: say don't print this or print it this way. 45 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 1: But yeah, Operation mocker. 46 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 5: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is 47 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 5: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 48 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 5: learn this stuff. They don't want you to know a 49 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 5: production of Iheartrading. 50 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 2: Hello, Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, 51 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 2: my name is Noah. 52 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our 53 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: super producer Paul. Mission control decands. Most importantly, you are here, 54 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. Now, 55 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: we've been starting off and on with a Twitter roll 56 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: call of sorts that we had talked about, just to 57 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: keep everybody in touch as close as we can be 58 00:03:55,920 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: during these our days of quarantine. Wanted to shout out 59 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: in particular Snake Pliskin, who just heard our episode on 60 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: the Smiley Face Killer theory. Snake, you said, hey, conspiracy stuff. 61 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: I just listened to your Smiley Face Killers episode. In 62 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 1: the last two months, male subjects were pulled from the 63 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 1: Milwaukee River and someone else, Lindsay at Backstreet on Twitter says, 64 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: one of the guys, Luke H was in my graduating 65 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: class in high school. I remember he went missing. It 66 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: was surreal seeing his mom on TV related to the 67 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 1: Smiley Face Killers. So it's interesting because you know, as 68 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: we said in our episode, the vast majority of law 69 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: enforcement believes there's nothing to the theory, but the two 70 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: men who have been spearheading the investigation themselves former law 71 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: enforcement are still convinced there's something nefarious afoot. What did 72 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: you guys think about that when we looked into that episode. 73 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 2: I mean, it's nice to have two people who have 74 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 2: decided to continue looking into it, especially for you know, 75 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 2: the individuals, like the families of the victims that are involved, 76 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:12,919 Speaker 2: just to have someone that it feels like they're in 77 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 2: your corner. But you know, it did seem like a 78 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 2: bit of a stretch where we did the episode. That 79 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 2: doesn't mean it's you know, not real, just means we 80 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 2: don't have enough evidence at this point to connect everything. 81 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:27,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, It just felt like, you know, the 82 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 3: smiley face is such a ubiquitous, very kind of easy 83 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 3: thing to spray paint on a wall. The existence of that, 84 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 3: you know, connected to multiple cases of drowning, which is 85 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 3: also an easy thing to happen near a body of water, 86 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 3: seemed like a real kind of shot in the dark 87 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 3: to me. And it seems like that is what the 88 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 3: evidence bore out. That it did feel like a bit 89 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 3: of a either a coincidence or just you know, somebody 90 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 3: getting a little overly obsessed and wanting to find an 91 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 3: answer where none existed, and that's certainly a thing that happens. 92 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 1: You know, well said, well said, And it sounds like 93 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: we're all on the same page with this one. We 94 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,839 Speaker 1: have to add to that the enormous difficulty of proving 95 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: drowning by homicide. But with that being said, of course 96 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: we want to hear your arguments for or against it, 97 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 1: and we would, like everybody else listening, want nothing more 98 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: than closure for the families who have lost these children. 99 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 1: Today we're diving into something that fellow longtime listeners will 100 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: be more than familiar with, at least in principle. I mean, 101 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 1: hot gosh, we're in a new golden age of propaganda. 102 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,799 Speaker 1: It's often said, right since before the twenty sixteen election, 103 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 1: or at least it looks like a new age if 104 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,679 Speaker 1: you don't as long as you don't dive too deeply. 105 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: While we're saying we're in a new age of propaganda. 106 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting because it makes for a slick headline. 107 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: But that's not entirely true. So here are the facts. 108 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 2: If you've listened to this show, you know that propaganda 109 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 2: is nothing new. Propaganda is something that's been around forever 110 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 2: because we've always needed we as in us, every human, 111 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 2: those in power or those wanting to acquire power, have 112 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 2: always needed a way to convince others that their way 113 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 2: is the right way. And if for some reason you 114 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 2: didn't check out our very first episode of Stuff they 115 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 2: Don't Want You to Know in podcast form, you should 116 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 2: do that now because it's all about the life and 117 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 2: story of Edward Burnez, who is popularly known lovingly known 118 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 2: as the father of public relations i e. Propaganda. 119 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, And you can read his work for yourself. 120 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: It is surprisingly transparent because Edward Burnes felt like he 121 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: was doing a good thing. He thought he was making 122 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: the world a better place. You can find this stuff 123 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: for free online, like to recommend for anybody who hasn't 124 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: read him before checking out Crystallizing Public Opinion and of 125 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: course his breakout banger, the single in his Uh. If 126 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: his work is an album, the book simply titled Propaganda, 127 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: I would also say he's he's a very clear and 128 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: talented writer. And these are easy reads. You know, it's 129 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: not like slogging your way through Kirkgard or something like that. 130 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 3: Uh. 131 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: And you know he won't he will be he will 132 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: be not by no means the only uh, the only 133 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: author you find writing about propaganda or writing actual propaganda 134 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 1: if you look on the Internet these days, because it 135 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: is chock full of propaganda. As a matter of fact, 136 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: propaganda has become increasingly weaponized. It's a crown jewel in 137 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: the world of asymmetrical warfare. And have this in the notes, 138 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: but just just for anybody who's like heard the term 139 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 1: propaganda or wondering what it means. Propaganda's information. It's not 140 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: always untrue, but propaganda is information with an agenda. It's biased, 141 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: it can be misleading, and it's meant to make you feel, 142 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: as the reader or the viewer or the audience member, 143 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: that what you're being told is leading you inevitably to 144 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: an obvious conclusion. But that conclusion is not always the truth. 145 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: It's very tricky, I know. 146 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, yeah, it exists. You know, we're talking 147 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 2: about it existing now in modern days and the Internet 148 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 2: being chocked full of it. You could you can slightly 149 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 2: put a twist on anything that gets released from a 150 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:48,439 Speaker 2: public relations perspective, whether it's the messaging within a let's 151 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 2: say a company and the way it portrays itself in 152 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 2: advertising or oh especially a candidate and the way they 153 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 2: are portrayed within an election year. 154 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean the term is right. Spin is 155 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 3: literally taking a truth and twisting it. That is what 156 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 3: spinning something is. It is a way of changing the 157 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 3: way a thing is perceived or quote unquote getting ahead 158 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 3: of it, which can basically mean controlling the narrative. It 159 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 3: doesn't necessarily mean that it's outright lying. In fact, it's 160 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 3: it's probably a bad idea to outright lie and propaganda 161 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 3: because you can call out a lie, you can't call 162 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 3: out a cleverly strategically placed partial truth quite as easily, 163 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:34,599 Speaker 3: can you? 164 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 5: Right right? 165 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 1: I think I mentioned this in earlier episode, but always 166 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: makes me think of that fantastic line from Emily Dickinson. 167 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: Tell the truth, but tell it slant, and you see 168 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: more and more of that. I want to arm everybody 169 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: who's been reading a lot of news, especially political news, 170 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: with an easy tip to find stuff that maybe, if 171 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 1: not propaganda, just opinion masquerading is fact. You'll notice this 172 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: when you see by the verbs you see in headlines, 173 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: like if you ever read something where it says like 174 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:15,559 Speaker 1: politician a slams country Bees announcement of blah blah, blah 175 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: or they slam or they blast or they know, excoriate whatever. 176 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: All when they're putting in those action verbs, that is 177 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: the spin, that is part of the narrative they're trying 178 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:33,079 Speaker 1: to make you agree with. And it's weird because typically 179 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 1: here in the US, before and after the advent of 180 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: the Internet, when we would hear about propaganda, it would 181 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: be portrayed as something that other countries do. Right. You might, 182 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: for example, remember hearing a news anchor saying something along 183 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: the lines of, look at all this crazy disinformation coming 184 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: from Russia. RT used to be know as the Russian 185 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 1: Times or Russia Times has a brand new crazy conspiracy theory, 186 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: and they might reference Russia's state level propaganda on everything 187 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: from quote unquote globalists, the five G and more. And 188 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: you might also, if you're a fan of The Daily 189 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: Show or a fan of excellent work like last week Tonight, 190 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: recall the weird over the top videos that countries like 191 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: North Korea or Turkmenistan release. Have you guys ever seen those? 192 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 2: Oh yes, I recall this very vividly calling out the 193 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 2: United States for its use of propaganda, but in a 194 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 2: propaganda format, it was fascinating and it was highly effective, 195 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 2: because I remember watching it and myself personally feeling moved 196 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 2: in that I believed. I believed it to an extent, 197 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 2: if that makes sense. I believed that there was a 198 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 2: US campaign to wage propaganda against North Korea when I 199 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: was watching their tape and partic And the problem is 200 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 2: it's kind of it was happening, It kind of is 201 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 2: happening at all times, but from all sides. As as 202 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 2: we said, this is the standard fodder for asymmetrical means 203 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 2: of warfare. 204 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: Right, Why buy a supercarrier when you can get the 205 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: domestic population to turn against its masters. We often see 206 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: propaganda presented as a tool in the dictator toolkit. You know, 207 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 1: you can use it to gaslight and suppress local populations, 208 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:39,319 Speaker 1: and you can also use it to discredit any domestic opposition. 209 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: But if you think the US is somehow above this practice, 210 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 1: if you think the US is somehow immune to this practice, 211 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: you could not be any more wrong. Sadly, what are 212 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: we talking about. We'll tell you after a word from 213 00:13:54,080 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy. Oh hold on, 214 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: hold on, hold your horses, hold mine, hold the stable. 215 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: You might be saying, domestic propaganda would the United States 216 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: of America really be allowed to gaslight its own citizens. 217 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: No way. There should be a law. 218 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 2: There should be a law, especially because we're talking about 219 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 2: the United States government, the thing, the entity that we 220 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 2: all prop up every time we pay our taxes, the 221 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 2: thing that we make happen that works for us ostensibly 222 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 2: on paper. 223 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, And like you know, private entities are a different thing. 224 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: Everybody expects propaganda from private entities. We just call them advertisements. 225 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: Wendy's released this amazing mixtape a while back. That's definitely propaganda. 226 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: Burger King wants you to think that McDonald's is garbage. 227 00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: That's propaganda too, But it's different, you know. And as 228 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: you said, Bet, there are their tax dollars involved. And 229 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:08,119 Speaker 1: there was actually a law. It's called the US Information 230 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: and Educational Exchange Acts. Usually its street name is the 231 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: Smith Mount mun DT Act. 232 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 2: This is the. 233 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: Authorization, the legal authorization for propaganda activities conducted by the 234 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: Department of State here in the US. Well, I say 235 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: here in the US. The Department of State is based 236 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: in this country, but smith Mont is is green lighting 237 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: what could be euphemistically called public diplomacy. 238 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 3: I want to like walk this back ever so slightly 239 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 3: like wouldn't you say public? So this is governing public 240 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 3: discourse in some way or like the like being is 241 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 3: it trying to keep people honest? Like what's the purpose? 242 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 3: I don't quite understand if if it is meant for that, 243 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 3: it doesn't seem to be doing a very good. 244 00:15:55,440 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: Job, right right, So think of things if you can 245 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: listen to this. So you can listen to this now 246 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: in the US, but for a long time there were 247 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: things like VOA Voice of America. This is state sponsored 248 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: US content that's specifically marketed to foreign audiences, you know, 249 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: like think of the Horn of Africa, think of East 250 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: or Southeast Asia, and it's meant to kind of push 251 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: the push Uncle Sam's narrative to these foreign audiences. And 252 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: the act itself says or said that this kind of 253 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: stuff that we're piping out to residents of other countries 254 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: cannot be piped in here. So that's why you can't 255 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: turn on ninety point one or whatever your local MPR 256 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: station is and hear them talking about how dangerous the 257 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: government actions of Myanmar Pakistan are. 258 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 3: I see, Okay, So it's essentially like giving permission for 259 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 3: this kind of quote unquote we'd never call it propaganda. 260 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 3: The propaganda's not even in the thing that's sort of 261 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 3: a dirty word, but it's essentially allowing that legally within 262 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 3: the framework of our government to happen when it comes 263 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 3: to outside countries. But it's something that we would never 264 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 3: do to our own people knowingly or in terms of 265 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:24,360 Speaker 3: demonizing other countries. 266 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, nail on the head. In short, the United States 267 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 1: always knew that domestic propaganda could have a deletorious or 268 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: damaging effect on the population. We moved to protect ourselves 269 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: from ourselves. And this comes into play after all, the 270 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: propaganda of World War One and things like that, when 271 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: people are scrambling for their ration cards and so on. 272 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: The reasoning here was pretty patriotic. In fact, there's one Senator, 273 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: Edward Zurinsky who explained it, I think pretty pretty succinctly 274 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 1: when he was working with Senator J. William Fulbright to 275 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 1: try to push this act through Congress. 276 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:15,120 Speaker 3: And the purpose would be to distinguish what the US 277 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 3: is doing from the way the Soviets were conducting their propaganda, 278 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 3: he said. Zarensky said, quote from the Soviet Union, where 279 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 3: domestic propaganda is a principal government activity, Attempting to kind 280 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,360 Speaker 3: of demonize that. So Zarensky and Senator J. William Fulbright 281 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 3: sold their amendments on this idea of sensible rhetoric, which 282 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 3: I'm trying to get get at. American taxpayer shouldn't be 283 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 3: funding propaganda for American audiences, and that makes sense to me. 284 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 2: But we should be funding propaganda, you know, to all 285 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,880 Speaker 2: the other countries that are our enemies or our potential rivals. 286 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, yeah, like we shouldn't be lied to as 287 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: the American public, and you know what, we also shouldn't 288 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 1: be paying people for the privilege being lied to. That 289 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,640 Speaker 1: makes sense to me. It sounds like that's something all 290 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 1: of us are on board with. And here's the news. 291 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: It's quiet news. So don't feel bad if you missed it. 292 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 1: This rule, this sort of differentiation between US and the 293 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 1: quote unquote bad guys, all ended in twenty thirteen, seven 294 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 1: years ago, almost exactly seven years. There was a reform 295 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 1: that was passed in January of twenty thirteen. It went 296 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,919 Speaker 1: into effect in July of twenty thirteen. It had relatively 297 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 1: little media coverage, and it changed the rule. So Ever, 298 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: since twenty thirteen, the US government has been allowed to 299 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: market propaganda directly to the residents of the United States. 300 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 1: And this sounds maybe arguably like a small difference, like 301 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: that doesn't really matter. It does, especially when you consider 302 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 1: how much programming that opened the door for. It's huge. 303 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, there is a ton of produced prior to that 304 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 2: that you would never get inside the United States. The 305 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 2: stuff like the it's stuff that's made by the Broadcasting 306 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 2: Board of Governors, so Voice of America that we already mentioned, 307 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,400 Speaker 2: Radio Free Europe, Radio Liberty, the Middle East Broadcasting, all 308 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 2: of those networks, they can only be viewed or listened 309 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 2: to in broadcast quality, like the full quality that you're 310 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 2: meant to listen to. Let's say, like if you're in 311 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 2: your car listening to their radio or something, if you 312 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 2: were in a foreign country, if you're in a different 313 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 2: place other than the United States or a territory, those 314 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 2: are the only places you could listen to that stuff, 315 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 2: but not anymore. And that content is viewed in more 316 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 2: than one hundred countries in sixty one languages. And within 317 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 2: that programming, you're gonna hear about human rights abuses in Iran, 318 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 2: issues in Tibet, like self immolation of you know, certain 319 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 2: believers there or protesters there, human trafficking all across the 320 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 2: Asian continent, and all kinds of on the ground reporting 321 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 2: in war torn areas, in places like Egypt, also in 322 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 2: places like Iraq. That's where you're gonna find all of 323 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:09,640 Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. 324 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 3: But you know, to be fair, I mean, we have 325 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 3: to know that there's definitely a reason for this, there's 326 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 3: some valid arguments for this. The VOA's charter makes makes 327 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 3: this pretty boldly stated. They emphasize accuracy. Quote, our journalists 328 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 3: provide what many people cannot get locally uncensored news, responsible discussion, 329 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 3: and open debate. Yeah. 330 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, how do you like that language, Ben, That's what 331 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: they said, you know, that's that's their charter. 332 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 3: You know. 333 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 1: I think it's a good point though, because the because 334 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: it is what could be described, maybe somewhat glibly as 335 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 1: a pickle. There's an anonymous source where several anonymous sources 336 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 1: from the US government who say that Voice of America, 337 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: warts and all, does serve a good purpose. They call 338 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: it counter programming, counter propagandistic programming for people in incredibly 339 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 1: unstable areas that have little media access. So take Somalia 340 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: for example. Somalia is a failed state. It's very difficult 341 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 1: to live there, and according to at least one source, 342 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 1: again who wished to remain anonymous, they say Somali's have 343 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: three options for news, word of Mouth, al Shabab, or 344 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 1: Voice of America Somalia. So their argument is this propaganda 345 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:39,160 Speaker 1: has to exist because it is it is providing like 346 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: like you said in that mission statement, No, it's providing 347 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: quote unquote uncensored news. And okay, look, clearly uncensored news 348 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:56,120 Speaker 1: and responsible discussion. Responsible discussion sounds like it could also 349 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: be censorship. That could be a that could be like 350 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: someone's safe word for sense, honestly, but that also dodges 351 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 1: the real question. Okay, yeah, all right. Granted this is 352 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: important for areas of the world that would not otherwise 353 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: have any kind of international news or any kind of 354 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: larger context, but that fails to answer the question about 355 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,199 Speaker 1: why we would pipe this kind of stuff, which can 356 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: sometimes be orwellian, into the ears of people who live 357 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,439 Speaker 1: in this country. The argument is that if we do that, 358 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 1: By doing that, since twenty thirteen, this programming has been 359 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: able to reach large expatriate communities, like to go back 360 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: to the Somali example, A big part of the Somali 361 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: and diaspora is composed of people who live in Saint Paul, Minnesota. 362 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: So they're saying, look, this is propaganda, but it's accurate, 363 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: and it lets us reach people, you know, who need 364 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: to be reached here in the country. So overall, they're saying, 365 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 1: we're doing a good thing. Do you believe them? We'll see, 366 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 1: we'll see. Proponents who argue in favor of Voice of 367 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 1: America and similar propaganda enterprises produced by the US government 368 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: say that they are transparent. As a matter of fact. 369 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 1: Spokesperson for the BBG, the Broadcasting Board of Governors again 370 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: named Lynn Well, would not even call what the organization 371 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: does propaganda. Instead, she said it's an argument for transparency. 372 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 1: She said, look, this is overall a good thing. Quote. 373 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 1: Now Americans will be able to know more about what 374 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 1: they are paying for with their tax dollars. Greater transparency, 375 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:41,159 Speaker 1: she says, is a win win for everyone involved. She 376 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: doesn't mention this in her statements, but it is important 377 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:50,959 Speaker 1: to note, you know, lest we look at less, we 378 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: look at scants at the US for marketing propaganda to 379 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 1: US citizens, we have to remember a ton of other 380 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 1: foreign countries are already marketing propaganda here. Arguably a little 381 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: more successfully in some cases. 382 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, before you say hey, yeah, yeah, 383 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 2: BBC News in the United States, that's obviously propaganda. Hey, 384 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 2: come on, we don't know, maybe it is, but it's 385 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 2: certainly something that comes on my radio when I listened 386 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 2: to NPR in the morning. 387 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 3: Well that's the thing though, it's all about like what 388 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 3: your opinion of propaganda is, and like what's the rubric? 389 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 3: You know, like I don't know that there is one exactly, 390 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 3: because so much of it you can't prove is a 391 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 3: lie or is. 392 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 2: Well, if there's the slant that Ben kind of mentioned 393 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 2: at the top of this here, that's where you end 394 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 2: up kind of seeing the crack, seeing where it actually 395 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 2: is propaganda some sort, because they are reoccurring themes. Let's 396 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,679 Speaker 2: take a quick case in point here and jump to 397 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 2: Kansas City, Missouri, Missouri, Missouri, Missouri. Well, there was a 398 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,040 Speaker 2: New York Times article that came out in February of 399 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 2: this year that it's written by Neil mcfarquhar, and he 400 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 2: is talking about a radio station that is broadcasting there 401 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:17,479 Speaker 2: in Kansas City. It's called Radio Sputnik, And according to 402 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 2: Neil and the New York Times, it is a propaganda 403 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 2: arm of the Russian government, and it started broadcasting on 404 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 2: three radio stations in that area during the prime drive time. 405 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,199 Speaker 2: So radio, if you're in your car commuting, you're going 406 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 2: to hear this if you are on that channel. And 407 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,679 Speaker 2: it's a little strange. Let me just read this quote. 408 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 2: In the United States talk radio on this channel, Sputnik 409 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 2: covers the political spectrum from right to left. So again 410 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 2: you're getting what may feel like balanced news, like you're 411 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,439 Speaker 2: getting just a regular old station, but there is a 412 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 2: constant backbeat according to this article, is that America is 413 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 2: damaged to goods, that there's something wrong with America. There's 414 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 2: things aren't going right, there are problems, major issues, and 415 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 2: here here are all of the issues with America. And 416 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 2: it's interesting just to know that this is happening in 417 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 2: the United States with what is believed, like we said, 418 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 2: to be Russian propaganda. 419 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 1: We want to emphasize this is legal. You can learn 420 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: a lot about the story, and you have to remember 421 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: there's a human element. So this radio Sputnik exists in 422 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: the US primarily because of a radio station owner named 423 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 1: Pete Chartel. He was laying like two years ago, twenty 424 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: eighteen or so he had to lay off his entire staff, 425 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: and he was having a fire sale on ad spots. 426 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: He hadn't paid himself in months and months, and looked 427 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: like his operation was going to close. But Radio Sputnik 428 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 1: was paying thirty thousand dollars a month to broadcast it's 429 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,400 Speaker 1: programming in DC, and that's what that's what led him 430 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: to this. It was He's not like a Russian sleeper 431 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: agent allah the Americans guy that we know of, right right, 432 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 1: He's a guy who's trying to who's trying to keep 433 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 1: the lights on. It's an understandable thing. And this is 434 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: just one specific example. This could be also it's been 435 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 1: called public diplomacy. It could also be called soft diplomacy. 436 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 3: You know, you can. 437 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: Win hearts and minds without ever putting your hand on 438 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: a gun or god forbid, a nuclear weapon. But we 439 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: wanted to bring to your attention today something else. That's 440 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: the lay of the land now, right whatever law protected you, 441 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: quote unquote from domestic propaganda is no longer in effect. 442 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: It hasn't been for almost seven years, So please think 443 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: critically about all the stuff you've run into since twenty thirteen. 444 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: It also turns out that there's much more to this story. 445 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: The US has been flouting its own laws for even longer. 446 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: We're going to take a pause for word from our 447 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: sponsor that, as far as we know, is not US propaganda, 448 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: and we'll get back to you after the break. Here's 449 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: where it gets crazier, actually much crazier. Yeah, yeah, we've 450 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: got double double the crazy here is that first, I 451 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: don't know, it's a double mint of crazy though. For sure. 452 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: The US has been conducting this domestic propaganda kind of operation, 453 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: the these sorts of endeavors for decades and decades since uh, 454 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: since your grandparents were alive. Easily if you you know, uh, 455 00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: it's it's the easiest way to crack the this would 456 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: open is to start with two words. Operation Mockingbird. Yeah. 457 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 3: Operation Mockingbird was a secret campaign by the USCIA designed 458 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 3: to influence the media, our media. It was started by 459 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 3: Cord Meyer and Allen W. Dulles and later run by 460 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 3: Frank Weisner after Dulles became the head of the CIA. 461 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 3: On paper, it was all about fighting communism, fighting the Reds, 462 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 3: the Rooskies, and promoting Western values. Wisner was told to 463 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 3: create an organization that concentrated on quote propaganda, economic warfare, 464 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 3: preventative direct action including sabotage, anti sabotage, demolition and evacuation measures, 465 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 3: subversion against hostile states, including assistance to underground resistance groups, 466 00:30:55,240 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 3: and a support of indigenous anti communist elements and threatened 467 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 3: countries of the free world. Hold on, let's unpack this, 468 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 3: and this is like a free reign to kind of 469 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 3: collude with other countries and like a effort of covert 470 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 3: warfare back against our own country. 471 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a quote that directly speaks to our 472 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: earlier episodes on why a lot of foreign countries don't 473 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: trust nonprofits. This is this. This is a war of ideology, 474 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: and Weisner is Wisner is tasked with controlling the narrative 475 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: in the US and later franchising or expanding into a 476 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: global war. So that's why like underground resistance groups that 477 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: could be anybody from transparent political opponents of a regime 478 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: to a student body that gets that gets radicalized. Wisner 479 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: also is pulling journalists from the US who are who 480 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: are accredited and who work at some top notch publications 481 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 1: of note here, and he's he's getting them to help 482 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: fight the battle at home. He turns a guy named 483 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: Philip Graham at the Washington Post, and he has Graham 484 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: run this project within the journalism industry, and Graham starts 485 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: recruiting other people. There's a laundry list of names who 486 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: may be familiar to our fellow listeners, who are history 487 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: buffs into the murky world of spycraft. We're talking about 488 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: people like James Truett, Russell Wiggins, Phil Gilan, John Hayes, 489 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 1: Alan Barth. And here's something important. Technically, when you read 490 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: about this in official sources, declassified documents, and so on, 491 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: you'll you'll hear the program rarely ever mentioned in actual documents. 492 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: We have one mention that we'll cite later, But then 493 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: you'll also here it's still described as a quote alleged operation. 494 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: But what did it do? So we've got that, like 495 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: you said, we've got a lot to unpack in Wizner's 496 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 1: sort of mandate. But how did that translate to actual 497 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: things they did with journalists here? 498 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 2: Well, ultimately, this thing that we're calling Operation Mockingbird, it 499 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 2: was an influence campaign, a way to influence all the media, 500 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 2: different media, print media, television. It was to incentivize or threaten, 501 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 2: so carrot or stick journalists to really put out the 502 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 2: stories that the people running this operation wanted to actually 503 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 2: be out there, to be talked about around the water cooler, 504 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 2: to be things that would generally be in the zeitgeist. 505 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 2: Or and this is really important when a big news 506 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 2: story would come out, the operatives that were working, you know, 507 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 2: led by Philip Graham, would be able to spin the 508 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 2: news and those big stories as they come out, we 509 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 2: can put a little something on it before we send 510 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 2: it out into the world that's going to change the 511 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 2: way people are going to view this particular story. Or 512 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 2: and this is probably the worst part to hide news 513 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 2: stories from the public, just to keep things that they've 514 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 2: found unfavorable out of our ears and eyes. 515 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the thing. A method called catch and kill 516 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 3: where you basically like intercept the story and in some 517 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 3: way or another influence it to not ever see the 518 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 3: light of day, whether it's through intimidation, tactics, or a 519 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:39,760 Speaker 3: bribery or any number of ways. 520 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of similar to the tactic or the 521 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 1: phenomenon known as the Overton window, which is sort of 522 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: influencing the bounds of what can be talked about, what 523 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 1: is considered credible or legitimate or valid conversation. Good examples 524 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 1: of this would be the suppression of agent orange reporting 525 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: for a while. Another I don't know if this is 526 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 1: a solid example, but a good question to ask is 527 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: why isn't there more reporting about the health effects of 528 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:17,480 Speaker 1: depleted uranium which has been used in firearm rounds. There 529 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 1: should be more, but for a long time there wasn't. 530 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 1: The organizations that the CIA contacted, organizations and individuals they 531 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: wanted to present, as you said, Matt, the CIA's view. 532 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,760 Speaker 1: The CIA also funded student and cultural organizations and used 533 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:40,959 Speaker 1: magazines as fronts, not necessarily specialized trade magazines all the time, 534 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: more the kind of stuff you would see in a 535 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 1: waiting room at your local doctors or dentist's office. And 536 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: then as it developed, kind of like you said, Nol, 537 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: it started to franchise out. They would work to influence 538 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 1: foreign media, they would worked to influence political campaigns in 539 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,880 Speaker 1: other countries. And this was all by the way, this 540 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: was all just like gravy on the meatloaf. That was 541 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:09,399 Speaker 1: other illegal CIA operations already happening. Sorry for that painful comparison. 542 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 1: It didn't get lunch today, so I'm very all my 543 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: comparisons are like food based for right now. But we know, 544 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 1: we know that Wisner was a huge success. There's an 545 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,879 Speaker 1: author named Deborah Davis. She had wrote a book called 546 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: Catherine the Great, and when she's talking about Wisner, she says, 547 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:32,439 Speaker 1: by the early nineteen fifties, Wisner owned respective members of 548 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:38,799 Speaker 1: the New York Times, Newsweek, CBS and other communications vehicles. 549 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,240 Speaker 1: And they were getting big name journalists like too many 550 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 1: to name, but well, we've got an example of at 551 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: least one or two. 552 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 2: We sure do. 553 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 3: One of the most important journalists under the control of 554 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 3: Operation Rockingbird was Joseph Alsopp, who wrote articles for over 555 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 3: three hundred different newspapers, and he was far from the 556 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 3: only player the mocking Bird project of influence. The sphere 557 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:07,839 Speaker 3: of influence that Weisner held included journalists from the New 558 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 3: York Herald, Tribune, Time Magazine, Miami News, the Washington Star, Newsweek, 559 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 3: the Chattanooga Times. I mean paper is large and small. No, 560 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 3: you know, none were too insignificant. The whole idea was 561 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 3: to influence broadly and also narrowly if needed. The list 562 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 3: goes on. According to a guy by the name of 563 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 3: Alex Constantine, who wrote a book called Mockingbird the subversion 564 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 3: of the free press by the CIA in the fifties. 565 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 3: He says, quote, some three thousand salaried and contracts CIA 566 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:47,319 Speaker 3: employees were eventually engaged in propaganda efforts. That's that's not insignificant, Ben, 567 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 3: we talk about the idea of illegal CIA operations. It's 568 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,680 Speaker 3: just that's always interesting to me to hear that, because, 569 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:58,439 Speaker 3: you know, isn't it like it's just extra illegal kind 570 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 3: of right, the idea that it's legal. It's almost a 571 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 3: misnomer kind of because it's like it's obviously got the sanction, 572 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 3: the blessing from someone that's a very on high you know, 573 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 3: I always wonder about that. 574 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's uh, it's the Congressional military industrial complex, right. 575 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 1: That was the original phrase Eisenhower was going to use, 576 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,400 Speaker 1: but it got edited out of his speech, so he 577 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:26,719 Speaker 1: doesn't mention Congress and it. Yeah, you know, it's there's 578 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 1: so many moving parts to an organization the size of 579 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:34,440 Speaker 1: the US government that they're inevitably going to be contradictory agendas. 580 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: And if you are able to pursue what you see 581 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:42,000 Speaker 1: as the greater good, uh, and there's only one or 582 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: two pesky laws stopping you, then wouldn't you put doing 583 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:51,360 Speaker 1: the right thing over following some some sheaf of documents 584 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:52,879 Speaker 1: that's rotting in a dusty hall. 585 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:53,359 Speaker 2: Uh. 586 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 1: And you know, even if those documents are things like 587 00:38:55,880 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 1: the US Constitution, it's it's very easy for very intelligent 588 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 1: people to rationalize all sorts of horrible behavior. And this 589 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:09,799 Speaker 1: this goes into, Yeah, this goes into the subversion of 590 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,240 Speaker 1: the free press. That's exactly what happened. 591 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:12,760 Speaker 5: Matt. 592 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 1: I appreciate you pointed out. One of the most dangerous 593 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: capabilities of Operation mocking Bird was to again I'm like 594 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: legally required to say allegedly so, was to allegedly keep 595 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,839 Speaker 1: stories out of the news, to as you said, Noel 596 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 1: catch and to kill Weisner was able to stop newspapers 597 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,840 Speaker 1: from reporting the overthrow of the government of Iran, at 598 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: least for a while, to prevent them from reporting on 599 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:45,760 Speaker 1: the coup in Guatemala, which we shall also mention Edward 600 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:51,280 Speaker 1: Bernez was instrumental in drumming up at least ideological support 601 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:55,799 Speaker 1: for this is where this is where Eisenhower himself kind 602 00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:00,399 Speaker 1: of shows up. Henry luch or Henry Luce as the 603 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 1: owner at the time of a large media empire and 604 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 1: the rules were a little bit different for him because 605 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 1: he was a tycoon. You know, he was a mogul. 606 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,719 Speaker 1: He wasn't, he wasn't just a hard working, intrepid journalist. 607 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 1: He became key in Operation mocking Bird, and because of 608 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,400 Speaker 1: his personal wealth and power, he was able to push 609 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 1: his own agenda. He really wanted a more right wing 610 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:30,920 Speaker 1: presidential administration, and he did this because he thought it 611 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:33,400 Speaker 1: was the best way to fight communism. So he was 612 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 1: one of those guys who was always at the time saying, well, 613 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,879 Speaker 1: you know, the Democrats are very, very soft on communism, 614 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,279 Speaker 1: and this nation is going to fall if we let 615 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,920 Speaker 1: these reds get in and launch their fifth column or whatever. 616 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:51,920 Speaker 1: So he used his magazines in concert kind of with 617 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:56,440 Speaker 1: Operation mocking Bird to help get Dwight d. Eisenhower elected president. 618 00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 1: And then in nineteen fifty three, the web expands because 619 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:06,440 Speaker 1: Eisenhower appointed a family member of Henry Luchis to become 620 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 1: ambassador to Italy. This was the first first American woman 621 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 1: ambassador to a major country. So on the offset, that 622 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,879 Speaker 1: seems like a very very good thing. It's more representation 623 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:23,680 Speaker 1: in politics, right, But they got there because in a 624 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:25,959 Speaker 1: dirty way, they took a dirty path to get there, 625 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: and then other members to your point about point about 626 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,319 Speaker 1: contradicting your agendas. Other powerful people in the government, other 627 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:40,319 Speaker 1: members of other institutions started to become worry of the 628 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:42,440 Speaker 1: CIA's power, even envious of it. 629 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,839 Speaker 2: Yes, this is where we're going to talk about kind 630 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:50,520 Speaker 2: of the fall of this operation, why it wasn't successful, 631 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 2: and why it allegedly doesn't continue right now. 632 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,799 Speaker 3: Aha, Yeah, it's because our boy j ed Gar Hoover 633 00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:02,240 Speaker 3: was not happy with how powerful the CIA had grown. 634 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 3: He referred to Weisner's network as Wisner's Gang of Weirdos, 635 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 3: and then he actually started looking for dirt on the 636 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:16,960 Speaker 3: members of Wisner's Gang of Weirdos, looking into their past, 637 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,160 Speaker 3: and didn't take him long to figure out that some 638 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:23,320 Speaker 3: of them had been active surprise surprise in Oh Heavens 639 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:28,040 Speaker 3: TEBETSI left wing politics back in the nineteen thirties, which 640 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:32,000 Speaker 3: is at that time was essentially tantamount to being a commie. 641 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:32,239 Speaker 5: Right. 642 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:38,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's and Joseph McCarthy, who will dive into in 643 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 1: a future episode on the House on American Activities Committee. 644 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:45,360 Speaker 1: Joseph McCarthy also started trying to target members of the 645 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,360 Speaker 1: CIA and say that they were security risks or they 646 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:52,200 Speaker 1: were compromised. He claimed the CIA was a quote sinkhole 647 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,160 Speaker 1: of communists, and he said, I'm going to root out 648 00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,759 Speaker 1: one hundred of them. One of his first targets was 649 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,480 Speaker 1: coord Meyer, who at that time was still working still 650 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 1: allegedly working for Operation Mockingbird. But to put it bluntly, 651 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:11,160 Speaker 1: McCarthy had no idea who he was messing with. Weisner 652 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:17,760 Speaker 1: unleashed mocking Bird on McCarthy. Several members of the media 653 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:23,440 Speaker 1: that were also working on this operation, Drew Pearson, Ed Murrow, Walter, Lippman, 654 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,719 Speaker 1: and Moore, they went into attack mode. They're part of 655 00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:31,840 Speaker 1: the reason that McCarthy got such damaging press coverage. Again, again, 656 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,520 Speaker 1: we're not here to defend McCarthy, and he clearly became 657 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,280 Speaker 1: a flim flam man who was out of his depth. 658 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,719 Speaker 1: But the way we got there was dirty and it 659 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:46,359 Speaker 1: was orchestrated in part by the CIA. There aren't a 660 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,279 Speaker 1: lot of good guys here, if you know, if you 661 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:53,120 Speaker 1: delve into the story, and the US government was then 662 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:57,160 Speaker 1: attacking its own people and attacking its own you know, 663 00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:58,560 Speaker 1: technically its own agenda. 664 00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 2: Well, it's weird because it feels like the change in 665 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,440 Speaker 2: public opinion, you know, when you're thinking about McCarthy as 666 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:07,719 Speaker 2: and I know we haven't outlined that to its full 667 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,640 Speaker 2: extent in this episode, but as Ben said, we will later. 668 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 2: But you may think of the public support that McCarthy 669 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,640 Speaker 2: had for rooting out communists in the way that he 670 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,800 Speaker 2: was and the you know, administration was at that time. 671 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,320 Speaker 2: There was such support for it, or there was perceived 672 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,319 Speaker 2: support for it in a lot of ways, and then 673 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:35,520 Speaker 2: to have that perceived support just completely taken away by 674 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:40,399 Speaker 2: these very prominent voices within the media industry. You can 675 00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:44,960 Speaker 2: really see you can see it happening, I guess. And 676 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:48,040 Speaker 2: it's not something It's not in a way that I 677 00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,359 Speaker 2: would have imagined if I was just reading it in 678 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:52,239 Speaker 2: you know, a history book, the way it has been 679 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,400 Speaker 2: recorded over all these years. It's just, you know, the 680 00:44:56,000 --> 00:45:00,320 Speaker 2: winds have change, came and now McCarthy was out. No, 681 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,320 Speaker 2: there was some assistance there allegedly, yep. 682 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:07,320 Speaker 1: And this where we get to a point where we 683 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,480 Speaker 1: ask ourselves what happened to Operation Mockingberg. Eventually, all good 684 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,080 Speaker 1: and evil things must come to an end, right. This 685 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:18,680 Speaker 1: operation had so many players, it couldn't be secret forever. 686 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,520 Speaker 1: It was an open secret in the industry. In the 687 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,560 Speaker 1: journalism industry by the late nineteen sixties, it started to 688 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,799 Speaker 1: lose its cover in the seventies in a big way 689 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:31,880 Speaker 1: because of Watergate. So the Watergate scandal exacerbated concern about 690 00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:35,840 Speaker 1: the power of intelligence agencies. This is early seventies, nineteen 691 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:41,400 Speaker 1: seventy two, nineteen seventy four. Congress was becoming concerned that 692 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:44,520 Speaker 1: the president would be able to use the powers of 693 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:48,719 Speaker 1: the intelligence networks for their own nefarious ends. And then 694 00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,320 Speaker 1: this all hits a powder keg moment when the famous 695 00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:57,680 Speaker 1: reporter Seymour Hirsch publishes is nineteen seventy five expose about 696 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:01,839 Speaker 1: CIA domestic surveillance, which, fellow listeners, you've heard us talk 697 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,680 Speaker 1: about that before. Long story short. This leads Congress to 698 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:09,680 Speaker 1: authorize a series of investigations into the CIA from nineteen 699 00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:13,080 Speaker 1: seventy five to nineteen seventy six. They examined a ton 700 00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:17,240 Speaker 1: of different operations. They also find CIA ties with journalists 701 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:22,040 Speaker 1: as well as private voluntary organizations, but none of these reports, 702 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:29,200 Speaker 1: interestingly enough, specifically refer to Operation Mockingbird. All the famous 703 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,800 Speaker 1: Church Committee report found was that quote the CIA currently 704 00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:36,880 Speaker 1: maintains a network of several hundred foreign individuals around the 705 00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,839 Speaker 1: world who provide intelligence and at times attempt to influence 706 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:45,360 Speaker 1: opinion through the use of propaganda. And this is weird 707 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,680 Speaker 1: because the CIA already knew the heat was coming, and 708 00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:54,920 Speaker 1: they had begun restricting their use of domestic journalists and 709 00:46:55,040 --> 00:47:00,359 Speaker 1: foreign journalists, at least according to them, like right as 710 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:01,680 Speaker 1: this was all hitting the fan. 711 00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:05,200 Speaker 3: So in nineteen seventy three, the former director of the CIA, 712 00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:10,319 Speaker 3: William Colby, told the Church Committee that he believed, as 713 00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:15,959 Speaker 3: a general policy, the CIA won't be able to use 714 00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:21,120 Speaker 3: clandestine operations anymore, won't be able to use staff to 715 00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:26,839 Speaker 3: perpetrate these kinds of operations on US publications. It's it's 716 00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,520 Speaker 3: it's it's uh, which have a substantial impact, is what 717 00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:34,799 Speaker 3: he says, quote, or influence on public opinion. So he's 718 00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:36,600 Speaker 3: essentially shutting this down, right. 719 00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:40,120 Speaker 1: And just three years after that, George H. W. Bush, 720 00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:43,480 Speaker 1: who was then the CIA director, you know, member of 721 00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:47,640 Speaker 1: the Bush political dynasty he'd later go on to be president, 722 00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,799 Speaker 1: he said the following quote, effective immediately, CIA will not 723 00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:55,839 Speaker 1: enter into any paid or contractual relationship with any full 724 00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:59,960 Speaker 1: time or part time news correspondent accredited by any new 725 00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:05,440 Speaker 1: US news service. Newspaper, periodical, radio or television network or station. 726 00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:10,320 Speaker 1: So there we go, the problem solved right nineteen seventy 727 00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:13,399 Speaker 1: six on we are g to G that is short 728 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:17,120 Speaker 1: for good to go, or are we? We do have 729 00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:21,160 Speaker 1: to mention we tease. The one specific mention of Operation 730 00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:26,360 Speaker 1: Mockingbird in official docs, the Family Jewels, The Infamous Family 731 00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:32,480 Speaker 1: Jewels Massy classification of CIA documents says the following in full. 732 00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:37,040 Speaker 1: It's interesting to see how they characterize Mockingbird. 733 00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,040 Speaker 2: And this comes from and you can find this right 734 00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:43,080 Speaker 2: now if you're hanging out the Black Vault dot com. 735 00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:45,160 Speaker 2: And this is a quote from the sixth page that 736 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:49,279 Speaker 2: you'll find there. Project Mockingbird, a telephone intercept activity was 737 00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:53,920 Speaker 2: conducted between twelve of March nineteen sixty three and fifteenth 738 00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,279 Speaker 2: of June nineteen sixty three, so very short time there, 739 00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:01,080 Speaker 2: and targeted to Washington based newsman who at the time 740 00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,720 Speaker 2: had been publishing news articles based on and frequently quoting 741 00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:09,520 Speaker 2: classified materials of this agency, the CIA and others, including 742 00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:14,400 Speaker 2: top secret and special intelligence. And you know that's it 743 00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,799 Speaker 2: sounds like a very tiny operation, right There are two 744 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:21,000 Speaker 2: newsmen who have access to information that they probably shouldn't 745 00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:24,319 Speaker 2: have or that you know someone is feeding to them, 746 00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:28,480 Speaker 2: or that you know in some way these guys are 747 00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:30,960 Speaker 2: getting access to that secret information that they shouldn't have it. 748 00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:33,480 Speaker 2: So they checked out two guys, they wired tapped them, 749 00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:35,400 Speaker 2: and they figured out what happened, and then it was 750 00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:36,280 Speaker 2: over right. 751 00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:39,040 Speaker 3: But they stopped, right, I mean, if everything's fine, they're 752 00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:43,560 Speaker 3: not doing this anymore. They put the brakes on this program, 753 00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,239 Speaker 3: so no worries. Everything's all good, right. 754 00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:50,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, that leads us to our conclusion, and we wish 755 00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:52,760 Speaker 1: there was a little bit different because the answer really 756 00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:56,200 Speaker 1: to that excellent question is not so fast. You know, 757 00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:01,000 Speaker 1: decades have passed since the mid seventies, but people, some 758 00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:05,840 Speaker 1: of your faithful hosts included, believe this program never really stopped. 759 00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,120 Speaker 1: And it's easy to see why a lot of people 760 00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,240 Speaker 1: believe that this is the era of fake news. After all, 761 00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:15,640 Speaker 1: maybe we don't even need the CIA to conduct this anymore. 762 00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:21,240 Speaker 1: Maybe the massive consolidation of media conglomerates alone has led 763 00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:25,720 Speaker 1: to more effective control over more media than ever before. 764 00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:30,240 Speaker 1: The thing is, you'll notice that that mention from Family 765 00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:33,919 Speaker 1: Jewels talks about a Project mocking Bird. We're talking about 766 00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:37,880 Speaker 1: an Operation mocking Bird. That's that's the closest we could get. 767 00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:40,560 Speaker 1: And they sound like very different things. 768 00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:45,320 Speaker 2: They sound like completely different things. One is feeding information 769 00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:48,680 Speaker 2: to the press, the other is trying to figure out 770 00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:52,160 Speaker 2: how the press is getting all this dang information. So 771 00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:57,960 Speaker 2: maybe maybe Operation Mockingbird was happening, and then Project Mockingbird 772 00:50:58,000 --> 00:50:59,520 Speaker 2: was to figure out what the heck was happening with 773 00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:04,080 Speaker 2: the operation. I mean, honestly, because the people involved, Robert Kennedy, 774 00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:09,160 Speaker 2: Robert McNamara, huge names, These people are involved directly with 775 00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:13,160 Speaker 2: the tiny snippet we talked about Project Mockingbird. Joseph Carroll 776 00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:18,680 Speaker 2: is involved. I mean, it's just it's so insane to 777 00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:24,520 Speaker 2: imagine if Operation mocking Bird was real, absolutely was real, 778 00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:27,760 Speaker 2: just full stop, and they were doing all these things. 779 00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:33,680 Speaker 2: Who knows exactly how many people were involved and would 780 00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:39,840 Speaker 2: have information about this compartmentalized activity. You know, it's that 781 00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,600 Speaker 2: whole thing where maybe the left hand has no idea 782 00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:43,719 Speaker 2: what the right hand is doing. 783 00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:46,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then the big question is if you had 784 00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:50,880 Speaker 1: this tremendous network, this infrastructure, and you knew that you 785 00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:54,640 Speaker 1: were on the verge of discovering technology that would give 786 00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,600 Speaker 1: you even more control, why the hell would you walk 787 00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:00,960 Speaker 1: away it's a question that can really be answered. And 788 00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:04,919 Speaker 1: if you dig into Operation Mockingbird, you will you'll see 789 00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:09,440 Speaker 1: that it's still legally again an alleged operation, but there 790 00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:14,439 Speaker 1: is also there's no solid cutoff tape. Other than the 791 00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:19,200 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy statements that we mentioned just a few minutes ago. 792 00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:22,480 Speaker 1: You will not find an official end for this thing, 793 00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:26,719 Speaker 1: because this thing doesn't officially really exist. So this is 794 00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:28,480 Speaker 1: where we leave it to you. What do you think, folks, 795 00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:33,080 Speaker 1: Operation Mockingbird. Is it a small time conspiracy to hassle 796 00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:36,560 Speaker 1: some journalists, was it a deeper conspiracy to rule the 797 00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:39,960 Speaker 1: mind of the public. Was it a conspiracy that never 798 00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:43,200 Speaker 1: actually ended? We'd love to hear your thoughts. 799 00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:43,960 Speaker 5: Yeah. 800 00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:46,839 Speaker 3: You can reach us in the usual ways on the 801 00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:51,200 Speaker 3: internet at Facebook or we have our Facebook group here's 802 00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:53,319 Speaker 3: where it gets crazy. You can also find this on 803 00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:57,960 Speaker 3: Instagram and Twitter at some combination of conspiracy stuff conspiracy 804 00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:02,240 Speaker 3: stuff show. We also have a telephone number that are good. 805 00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:06,120 Speaker 3: Buddy Matt is kind enough to sort of be the gatekeeper. 806 00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:10,799 Speaker 2: Of that's right. Our number is one eight three three 807 00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:16,839 Speaker 2: std WYTK. Leave a message we you know, we'll hear it. 808 00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:19,200 Speaker 2: Whatever you want to say, whether you want to talk 809 00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,000 Speaker 2: about this episode, or when you want to hear in 810 00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:23,799 Speaker 2: the future or a past episode, or if you want 811 00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:26,799 Speaker 2: to talk about Nol's awesome hats that he wears on 812 00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:29,200 Speaker 2: Instagram all the time, or that he's wearing right now, 813 00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:33,480 Speaker 2: Ben's sunglasses that he's wearing while recording an episode of 814 00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:35,200 Speaker 2: stuff that I want you to know because got a 815 00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:37,520 Speaker 2: b BA while you're making this show. I've got a 816 00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:40,920 Speaker 2: magic the gathering background on Zoom right now. Actually, all 817 00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:44,239 Speaker 2: of us have really nice psychedelic backgrounds right now. Call 818 00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:46,120 Speaker 2: us and talk to us about that. What should we 819 00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:50,240 Speaker 2: put in our background when we make these episodes? Too much? Okay, 820 00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:50,960 Speaker 2: let's move on. 821 00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:54,000 Speaker 1: I think it's the perfect amount. Do you hit the 822 00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:58,279 Speaker 1: Goldilocks zone with that one old friend? But wait, you 823 00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:02,880 Speaker 1: might be saying, I social media, I don't get it, 824 00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,880 Speaker 1: or I hate tyger on phone. It's twenty twenty. But 825 00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:09,080 Speaker 1: I have something important that you or my fellow listeners 826 00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:12,000 Speaker 1: need to hear. How do I get in touch with you? Well, 827 00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:14,560 Speaker 1: we have good news for you, my friend. You can 828 00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:17,839 Speaker 1: reach us directly twenty four to seven at our good 829 00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:19,960 Speaker 1: old fashioned email address where we. 830 00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:41,880 Speaker 3: Are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 831 00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:44,120 Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production 832 00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:48,759 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 833 00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:57,200 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.