Speaker 1: If you don't know what you're really like, there's nothing
Speaker 1: you can do to change. You can't move forward. Welcome
Speaker 1: to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers have
Speaker 1: recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like
Speaker 1: garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think
Speaker 1: ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts
Speaker 1: don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy,
Speaker 1: or fear. We see what we don't have instead of
Speaker 1: what we do. We think things that hold us back
Speaker 1: and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking.
Speaker 1: Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort
Speaker 1: to make a life worth living. This podcast is about
Speaker 1: how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction,
Speaker 1: how they feed their good wolf Y, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1: Our guest on this episode is and Bogel, the creator
Speaker 1: of the popular blog Modern Mrs Darcy and the podcast
Speaker 1: What Should I Read Next. She's the author of many books,
Speaker 1: including her newest book, Reading People, How seeing the world
Speaker 1: through the lens of personality changes everything. Hi, friends, After
Speaker 1: four and a half years of working both the day
Speaker 1: job and doing this show, I have found myself struggling
Speaker 1: to find enough hours in the day to sustain and
Speaker 1: grow The One You Feed. It takes a lot of
Speaker 1: time and effort to do the show, and something has
Speaker 1: to give if The One You Feed is to continue.
Speaker 1: The bottom line is I realized I either needed to
Speaker 1: try and make the show successful enough to support me
Speaker 1: or stop doing the show. So I've chosen to focus
Speaker 1: my time fully on doing the thing I love the most,
Speaker 1: the One You Feed. So I have quit my day job. Yea,
Speaker 1: I think that's the good news. The bad news is
Speaker 1: that the show does not make enough money to support
Speaker 1: me and all the various things that I need to support,
Speaker 1: like keeping my son in college. So I am taking
Speaker 1: a leap of faith here and here's where I need
Speaker 1: your help. If you value the show, if you want
Speaker 1: the show to be around, now is the time to
Speaker 1: go to one you feed dot net slash support and
Speaker 1: make a monthly donation. I can't do this without you,
Speaker 1: so please go to one you feed dot net slash
Speaker 1: support now and make a contribution. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: And here's the interview with Anne vogel Hi and welcome
Speaker 1: to the show. Well thank you for having me. I
Speaker 1: am happy to have you on and talk with you
Speaker 1: about your latest book, which is called Reading People, How
Speaker 1: seeing the world through the lens of personality changes everything.
Speaker 1: You're also the host of a podcast called What Should
Speaker 1: I Read Next? And listeners who closely follow us know
Speaker 1: that I had a short interview with Anne. Sometimes I
Speaker 1: think around Thanksgiving to sort of cross promote some of
Speaker 1: our shows. We're both on the Wondering Network. But now
Speaker 1: we're going to do a full interview and we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about reading and her book. But before we
Speaker 1: get started, let's start like we always do, with the parable.
Speaker 1: There's a grandmother who's talking with her granddaughter and she says,
Speaker 1: in life, there are two wolves inside of us that
Speaker 1: are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which
Speaker 1: represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the
Speaker 1: other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed
Speaker 1: and hatred and fear. And the granddaughter stops and thinks
Speaker 1: about it for a second and looks up at a
Speaker 1: grandmother says, well, grandmother, which one wins? And the grandmother says,
Speaker 1: the one you feed. So I'd like to start off
Speaker 1: by asking you what that parable means to you in
Speaker 1: your life and in the work that you do. Well,
Speaker 1: that's such a great story, and even though I've heard
Speaker 1: you tell it many times, it never gets old. Well,
Speaker 1: that's so interesting, and I know you've had some guests
Speaker 1: come back to your show. I'm interested to hear if
Speaker 1: it's the kind of story that means different things to
Speaker 1: you at different stages of your life. But what I'm
Speaker 1: hearing now is that it's not just what you choose
Speaker 1: to pay attention to, but that it really influences what
Speaker 1: kind of action you take in your life. And what
Speaker 1: I mean by that is I did write a book
Speaker 1: about personality, so I spent three years like in it,
Speaker 1: finding out like what makes us who we are, and
Speaker 1: how much we do or do not have the power
Speaker 1: to influence that, and what things we do have control over.
Speaker 1: And I've learned that there's an enormous difference between pretending
Speaker 1: things aren't the way they are and striving to make
Speaker 1: them different. So now when I listen to you tell
Speaker 1: that story, I think about the proactive changes or decisions
Speaker 1: we make in our lives every day to become or
Speaker 1: act like a certain kind of person. And I mean
Speaker 1: that in a good way. I don't mean like pretending, Um,
Speaker 1: and how that's so very different from sticking your head
Speaker 1: in the sand or your fingers and your ears and
Speaker 1: going la la, la, la la, and pretending everything is fine.
Speaker 1: And in my work, I wrote this book about personality,
Speaker 1: but for eight years now I've written primarily about what's
Speaker 1: so important about the reading life, in in my work, online,
Speaker 1: in books. And what I've come to believe is that
Speaker 1: when you have a vibrant reading life, it makes your
Speaker 1: life better, rich or fuller, um, You're more self aware
Speaker 1: of what you want and the direction you're heading in,
Speaker 1: and I think that spills over into the rest of
Speaker 1: your life as well. When you develop a stronger reading life,
Speaker 1: the rest of your life improves. And so I'm constantly
Speaker 1: thinking about what we are putting into our brains, what
Speaker 1: things were choosing to think about every day, and just
Speaker 1: watching how that ought to if we're paying attention, flow
Speaker 1: out into our actions when we move into the world. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's two things you said there and I think are
Speaker 1: so useful. The first is about you know, not sticking
Speaker 1: your head in the sand, and I occasionally, you know,
Speaker 1: people will take the parable as you should only have
Speaker 1: good thoughts or should only feel happier, should only feel
Speaker 1: nd or generous, and and I think that's not really
Speaker 1: the point. The point, like you said, is here's what
Speaker 1: is right, whatever that emotion, situation, whatever it is, here's
Speaker 1: what is. But then I'm going to be conscious and choiceful.
Speaker 1: Is that a word? I know? I don't think it is.
Speaker 1: I'm going to be conscious about the choices that I make.
Speaker 1: What am I gonna do with what is? And I
Speaker 1: love that you point that out. And then I also
Speaker 1: agree with you about reading. My favorite place in the
Speaker 1: world is probably a library, and second favorite might be
Speaker 1: a bookstore, just in the libraries ahead of it, because
Speaker 1: it has more books usually and they're free. Um. But
Speaker 1: so I agree with you. I think that reading is
Speaker 1: so essential. One of the things that I lament a
Speaker 1: little bit about the current role I'm in is that
Speaker 1: I'm reading all the time for the show, which I love,
Speaker 1: but it limits the scope of my reading a little bit.
Speaker 1: And I'm a huge fiction reader, and I do I
Speaker 1: do less of it than I would like. Um, it's
Speaker 1: a worthwhile trade off, but I do occasionally miss that.
Speaker 1: So I love when I have a little bit of
Speaker 1: a lull that I can get into a good fiction book.
Speaker 1: So why don't we start there and then we'll head
Speaker 1: into personality. But what are a couple of fiction books
Speaker 1: that you have read recently that you have loved? A couple? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know. In book club last night we talked about
Speaker 1: Home Fire, a relatively new novel by Kamala Shamsi. It
Speaker 1: came out I think um August or September seventeen, But
Speaker 1: we just had our book club discussion last night. And
Speaker 1: that's a really interesting book because, um, it has a
Speaker 1: nerdy appeal, and that is that it's a twenty one
Speaker 1: century retelling of Sophocles play Antigny. But the way she's
Speaker 1: redone this for the twenty one century is she's made
Speaker 1: this this story about love and family and citizenship and
Speaker 1: obligations and terrorism and politics, and she has just created
Speaker 1: this really fascinating story that is so interesting to read.
Speaker 1: And when I first heard and Antigny retelling, like that's
Speaker 1: how like a yawner. Um, I was skeptical, but it's
Speaker 1: so good and I was really impressed by just knowing
Speaker 1: the fact that she's retelling this play that came out
Speaker 1: it's something like the fourth century BC. It was a
Speaker 1: really long time ago, and is human beings were still
Speaker 1: struggling with so many of the same issues, like how
Speaker 1: do we balance what is legal against what we perceived
Speaker 1: to be right? And Um, this person we owe a
Speaker 1: strong loyalty too, but this this other person that we
Speaker 1: also feel committed to, and what we do is people
Speaker 1: when those values are in conflict. And it was just
Speaker 1: so interesting and the fact that she made it about
Speaker 1: terrorism and politics was just fascinating. I was really impressed
Speaker 1: with the way she did that. And oh, let me think.
Speaker 1: I also love and have read several times The Spring
Speaker 1: Actually and a Maggie O'Farrell novel called This Must Be
Speaker 1: the Place, which is a really interesting family saga. It's
Speaker 1: to hold from many different points of view of all
Speaker 1: the characters in this story. You get inside everybody's head.
Speaker 1: She has one chapter the it's an auction catalog. She
Speaker 1: has one chapter that's an interview in like a gossip
Speaker 1: magazine that's going very, very badly for the subject involved.
Speaker 1: And I just love how she tells this family story
Speaker 1: that UM has lots and lots of sorrow. We've been through,
Speaker 1: like everybody in this story has experienced something horrible or
Speaker 1: they're dealing with this massive encumference like addiction or a
Speaker 1: physical disability, or they're greeting the loss of a loved one,
Speaker 1: but they are working it through some too better effects
Speaker 1: than others. It makes me think you're parable. But I
Speaker 1: just love it so much. I love stories where that
Speaker 1: seem realistic but are a little more um interesting and dramatic,
Speaker 1: usually in a bad way than my usual life. But
Speaker 1: I love it when when people's stories on the page
Speaker 1: really have emotional resonance and make me think about my
Speaker 1: own life and what I want from it in my
Speaker 1: place in the world, and you know, all that all
Speaker 1: that deep thought stuff. Yeah, I think that one of
Speaker 1: the things I love about literature that can do this
Speaker 1: is it's a good portal into other people's lives depend
Speaker 1: you know what you're reading. But in most cases that
Speaker 1: what that portal tells us at a very broad level
Speaker 1: is that we all go through really hard crap, and
Speaker 1: there's just something I think that's so normalizing about that.
Speaker 1: And I think it's one of the things on this
Speaker 1: show that you know, I've tried to emphasize over and
Speaker 1: over and work with, which is that you know, suffering
Speaker 1: is not personal. You know, pain that happens in life
Speaker 1: is not a failure. It's that's part of what's going
Speaker 1: to happen. It's not that all life is that way,
Speaker 1: but it's going to happen, and it's not a personal
Speaker 1: failing and people aren't alone and going through that that.
Speaker 1: Everyone goes through stuff like this at some juncture in life,
Speaker 1: and I think literature can really be a great way
Speaker 1: to explore that in a more in depth way than
Speaker 1: a lot of other methods. Yes, I totally agree, and
Speaker 1: that's one of the main reasons I like to read.
Speaker 1: And that's so interesting because now that you articulate that
Speaker 1: idea about suffering being universal, it's interesting. I can see
Speaker 1: in the people that I interact with every day when
Speaker 1: something bad happens, they think, where did I go wrong? Right?
Speaker 1: But but you didn't go wrong. This is life. Yep,
Speaker 1: this is life. It's just which is weirdly encouraging and
Speaker 1: depressing at the same time, right right. I used the
Speaker 1: words suffering a minute ago, and I actually make a
Speaker 1: real distinction between pain and suffering, and listeners have priorites
Speaker 1: a thousand times. But you know, I think that like
Speaker 1: pain is, you know, we're gonna have pain in life.
Speaker 1: Bad things are going to happen to a suffering tends
Speaker 1: to be to me the distinction of all the stuff
Speaker 1: that we layer on top of that that's optional. And
Speaker 1: one of those most common sufferings that we add to
Speaker 1: our burdens is what did I do wrong? Or why me?
Speaker 1: Or this shouldn't be happening, And all those thoughts, while
Speaker 1: perfectly normal and almost probably unavoidable, are also things that
Speaker 1: make what we're going through worse. And sometimes I think
Speaker 1: that's almost the best we can do, is just not
Speaker 1: make it worse, you know, I mean, just like but
Speaker 1: that's a remarkable relief to not make it worse. It
Speaker 1: can be pretty remarkable in how much better it feels.
Speaker 1: Funny because it's true. Ye ye, yes, absolutely. I've not
Speaker 1: looked at all your podcasts are all your blogs, but
Speaker 1: I've looked through some of them to see some different
Speaker 1: reading ideas. And I there's somebody that I love that
Speaker 1: seems to be right up your alley that I haven't seen.
Speaker 1: And maybe it's just because I haven't seen it, but
Speaker 1: Kristen Hannah, you know, I have read, probably have her
Speaker 1: works and have enjoyed it over the years. But oh
Speaker 1: my goodness, I loved the great Alone. I thought that
Speaker 1: was an amazing book. Me too. Yeah, the last two
Speaker 1: of hers, that one and I think it was The
Speaker 1: Nightingale just blew me away, both of them. It's just
Speaker 1: but it strikes me is is that exactly what we're
Speaker 1: talking about now, which is this view into somebody's life
Speaker 1: and how they deal with their challenges and just very nuanced,
Speaker 1: very rich, but also captivating. And you on your blog
Speaker 1: you've got sections. I think you call it literary fiction
Speaker 1: that's also easy to read or something, And I think
Speaker 1: that's what I prefer to, is that there's some depth
Speaker 1: to it, there's some meaning to it, there's some clear
Speaker 1: thought and nuance about the human condition, and it's a
Speaker 1: pleasure to read. You can get lost in it, and
Speaker 1: so I think we probably would like a lot of
Speaker 1: the similar books. I'm glad to hear that. And yes,
Speaker 1: I thought that novel was very well written. I thought
Speaker 1: the craft was excellent, but I could not wait to
Speaker 1: find out what happened next. I saw another post on
Speaker 1: your website about books that I read within like twenty
Speaker 1: four hours, and I think that that book, The Great Alone,
Speaker 1: is the most recent book, and it's been a little
Speaker 1: while of something that kept me up till like four
Speaker 1: in the morning reading. I could not put it down.
Speaker 1: I knew I needed to. I kept trying, and I'd
Speaker 1: lay down for a minute and I'd be like, oh,
Speaker 1: forget it, and I can just get back up and
Speaker 1: start reading it again, because it was so compelling to me.
Speaker 1: And it's a long book. It's four something pages, I know,
Speaker 1: but I did the same thing. But well, I didn't
Speaker 1: finish it at four in the morning. Luckily, I think
Speaker 1: I started that early on a Saturday morning, so sting
Speaker 1: myself on the back. I didn't know what a good
Speaker 1: decision that was at the time, but I was just
Speaker 1: so nervous for the characters. I really I needed to
Speaker 1: know if they were going to be okay and if
Speaker 1: something terrible was going happened to them. I needed to
Speaker 1: have it in the past tense and get it over with.
Speaker 1: So I just kept turning and turning and turning. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's remarkably well done, and I send out each
Speaker 1: month in our newsletter book recommendation. I'm trying to think
Speaker 1: of whether that one was in there in one of
Speaker 1: the recent ones. I'm pretty sure it was because I
Speaker 1: loved it so much. Let's turn and talk about personality,
Speaker 1: because we could spend the whole interview on books easily.
Speaker 1: But let's talk about personality because I think there's a
Speaker 1: lot of really interesting things. Your book is called reading People,
Speaker 1: how seeing the world through the lens of personality changes everything.
Speaker 1: And what you're really talking about in the book is
Speaker 1: here are these various types of personality assessments. We all
Speaker 1: tend to take them, whether they be something incredibly in
Speaker 1: depth like the Myers Briggs or as you joke, like
Speaker 1: the BuzzFeed quiz about like what kind of cheese am I? Um?
Speaker 1: So we all are are intrigued by that stuff. And
Speaker 1: and what I thought about the book that was a
Speaker 1: different take was it was your experience with how you
Speaker 1: used these different assessments to make your life better. And
Speaker 1: I thought that was really a useful way to look
Speaker 1: at it. But let's start with I think the direction
Speaker 1: will take this is what is personality? And then I
Speaker 1: think a lot of the book was about to what
Speaker 1: extent and you mentioned this in your introduction, to what
Speaker 1: extent are we able to change our elves and not
Speaker 1: change ourselves? And what should we even try to change
Speaker 1: and not change? And I think it's a really fascinating
Speaker 1: and nuanced question that I think you address in lots
Speaker 1: of different places. So let's start with what is personality? Wow?
Speaker 1: See that sounds like such a simple question, and that
Speaker 1: has been debated for hundreds of years what it really means?
Speaker 1: So in the book, what I'm talking about when I
Speaker 1: talk about personality or those things about us that we
Speaker 1: really can't change. I'm not talking about if you're kind
Speaker 1: or compassionate or generous, which our character traits that we do.
Speaker 1: Now see psychologists already say like, well, it's actually fairly
Speaker 1: difficult to become more conscientious or more generous unless you
Speaker 1: have like a real serious epiphany. You can move the needle,
Speaker 1: but just a little. But I'm talking about those things
Speaker 1: that are more or less hardwired. Um, we were born
Speaker 1: an introvert or an extrovert, or you know, we're some
Speaker 1: place on the spectrum. And while most of us tend
Speaker 1: to become a little more introverted over time, and while
Speaker 1: we can train ourselves to behave in ways that make
Speaker 1: us more comfortable or quote unquote successful in certain situations, um,
Speaker 1: those are coping strategies, not real fundamental change. Nobody decides
Speaker 1: they're going to be an extrovert and becomes one because
Speaker 1: they willed it to be. So UM, I'm talking about
Speaker 1: those things about how our mind is inclined to work, UM,
Speaker 1: how we tend to think about the world the way
Speaker 1: we see things, and it's hard to capture. But that's
Speaker 1: why I like the lens of these personality frameworks that
Speaker 1: lets you systematically approach the way that you are inclined
Speaker 1: to think, feel, act about certain behaviors with this UM
Speaker 1: a systematic framework that lets you think about one aspect
Speaker 1: of yourself at a time, and you walk through a
Speaker 1: lot of different personality type tests. And this is what
Speaker 1: I'll say about personality tests and me, I find them
Speaker 1: maddening because I end up if there's a middle on everything.
Speaker 1: That's where I end up every question. I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: I just feel like none of it feels to me
Speaker 1: incredibly clear, which I actually think as I step back
Speaker 1: and look at my personality kind of goes yeah. I
Speaker 1: think that's kind of where I gravitate too. Is you
Speaker 1: know a very you know, if you take a personality test,
Speaker 1: I look like I could almost be four different things.
Speaker 1: You know, It's like, well, where's the nuance in so UM?
Speaker 1: I find them to be challenging for me in that
Speaker 1: regard because some of the questions I'm like, well, the
Speaker 1: answer is it depends can I tell you something? Though, Eric,
Speaker 1: I do the same thing, and I wish I had
Speaker 1: known at the very beginning before I encounter my first
Speaker 1: personality test um whether or not those questions on a
Speaker 1: solid personality assessment, like like, I'm thinking of something like
Speaker 1: Myers Briggs, which psychologists do have some beef with sometimes
Speaker 1: because they don't think it measures you know, certain things,
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. We won't get into that right now,
Speaker 1: but um, some people make quizzes on the internet. They
Speaker 1: really aren't worth anything. But I'm just saying, as opposed
Speaker 1: to that, it says a lot about your personality. Truly,
Speaker 1: I'm not being silly about whether or not you can
Speaker 1: imagine yourself acting in all those different ways. You're not
Speaker 1: a black and white thinker, I'm guessing no, no, very much.
Speaker 1: Not so if what we're talking about when we talk
Speaker 1: about these personality frameworks is that it captures our characteristic
Speaker 1: patterns of thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. The fact that you're
Speaker 1: not a binary thinker does say a lot about yours
Speaker 1: and I understand that doesn't help you answer the question,
Speaker 1: but it might still confirm something that you had a
Speaker 1: hunch about, which is that you're good at seeing lots
Speaker 1: of persons or lots of possibilities. Yeah. And there's two
Speaker 1: things that you put early in the book that I
Speaker 1: thought were really important, because you talk about the importance
Speaker 1: of getting these things right, and you talked about, um,
Speaker 1: your early mistakes were that you didn't answer the questions
Speaker 1: exactly as you are, but kind of what you wished
Speaker 1: you were or what you thought you should be UM.
Speaker 1: And that's a really subtle nuance, and I think is
Speaker 1: very very important because I think we all have a
Speaker 1: sense of here's the right way to be. Now. I
Speaker 1: don't think there is, but most of us think there is,
Speaker 1: and so then we're kind of, you know, we're answering
Speaker 1: questions and that. And then the other thing that I
Speaker 1: thought you said that was really helpful in this was
Speaker 1: that it's easy to type yourself by paying attention to
Speaker 1: how you're likely to screw up. Yes, it is the
Speaker 1: first thing you said about how it's important to pay
Speaker 1: attention and get it right to identify your personality not
Speaker 1: as how you wish you were, And it's true there's
Speaker 1: not one right way to act. But in some in
Speaker 1: some careers, in some families, in some situations, there is
Speaker 1: a personality type that is valued more than others. And
Speaker 1: that's not a good thing, but it's still a true
Speaker 1: thing in many settings. So it's easy for us to
Speaker 1: unconsciously take that on. But that idea really goes back
Speaker 1: to the wolves were we're talking about in the parable
Speaker 1: how pretending doesn't make it so. And if you don't
Speaker 1: know how things, if you don't know what you're really like,
Speaker 1: there's there's nothing you can do to change. You can't
Speaker 1: move forward, and really knowing what kind of person you
Speaker 1: are and a kind I hate to use words like
Speaker 1: that because they're thrown around as cliches so often, but
Speaker 1: truly identifying your characteristic patterns of thoughts, feelings, and behavior
Speaker 1: can open up the world to you in so many ways,
Speaker 1: and it would be a shame to pass that by. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I think that there's a common I don't know
Speaker 1: if it's a criticism, but that you know, a personality
Speaker 1: test can be a way to put ourselves in a
Speaker 1: box right that, And and I think we also have
Speaker 1: to watch for confirmation bias, right, which is once we think,
Speaker 1: once we think one thing, we see that thing everywhere.
Speaker 1: And so if I take a personality test, that tells
Speaker 1: me I'm X, and I start looking for examples of
Speaker 1: me being X, I'm gonna be X. But I think
Speaker 1: you make a very important distinction, and I think the
Speaker 1: really useful one is that personality are things like introversion,
Speaker 1: extra version, m highly sensitive people. You know, whether you
Speaker 1: have a higher happiness set point or a lower happiness
Speaker 1: set point. But then you go on to make a
Speaker 1: distinction of two other key thing. And it's interesting because
Speaker 1: if I were to break down the way we approach
Speaker 1: things on the show, we would do it very similar
Speaker 1: to this. I'm always talking about, you know, the serenity prayer.
Speaker 1: What can you change, what can't you change? And so
Speaker 1: so personality is okay, let's just say that's the that's
Speaker 1: the part that we're not going to do much with.
Speaker 1: That's the genetic inheritance to some degree, right, But the
Speaker 1: two things that that are much more malleable. And again
Speaker 1: we can debate how malleable they are or not malleable.
Speaker 1: I'm in the more malleable with a lot of effort
Speaker 1: camp is our character and our behavior, and and so
Speaker 1: is people who listen to the show know that I
Speaker 1: you know, I'm all about behavior all the time. I'm
Speaker 1: all you know, We're always talking about how sometimes we
Speaker 1: can't think our way into right action. We have to
Speaker 1: act our way into right thinking. And that's because behaviors
Speaker 1: are are more malleable. And so I think that the
Speaker 1: way that you're talking about using personality tests is really
Speaker 1: the opposite of being a way to limit ourselves to say,
Speaker 1: like here's the box I put myself in, but much
Speaker 1: more as a way to understand ourselves in certain cases,
Speaker 1: to arrange our life in our environment in a way
Speaker 1: that that is going to work best for us given
Speaker 1: who we are, and to also use those things to
Speaker 1: give us a little bit of a break on being
Speaker 1: hard on ourselves when we just realize, like, you know what,
Speaker 1: that's the way I'm going to react to certain things,
Speaker 1: and you know that's what's going to happen. Again, there's
Speaker 1: there's degrees of improvement, but maybe the initial reaction I'm
Speaker 1: never going to change. Yes, I agree wholeheartedly, and I
Speaker 1: understand where this impulse comes to reject the whole idea,
Speaker 1: like oh, I don't want to be put in a box. However,
Speaker 1: when you go into the store, you probably know about
Speaker 1: what size you're looking for when you need your new
Speaker 1: running shoes. Like my hair is brown, it just is,
Speaker 1: and I can change it with DI if I wanted to.
Speaker 1: But but that is just part of who I am. However,
Speaker 1: you will hear people say, oh, I'm an I N
Speaker 1: T J, so I couldn't possibly fill in the blank.
Speaker 1: Or people will say to me like, oh, I know
Speaker 1: you have to be an extrovert because you have a podcast.
Speaker 1: An introvert would die if they had to talk to
Speaker 1: people all day. And that's just not true. And you know,
Speaker 1: we we can do any number of things. We can't
Speaker 1: we don't have options for close to us because we
Speaker 1: are or are not a certain a certain personality type
Speaker 1: according to whatever framework you're going with. However, I do
Speaker 1: think you're right and that we understand fundamental things about
Speaker 1: who we are, how our mind tends to operate. We
Speaker 1: really can enable ourselves to have an easier time changing
Speaker 1: our behavior, improving our character in the direction we want
Speaker 1: to go. Those are not easy things. They are absolutely possible,
Speaker 1: but it is difficult to change your behavior and it
Speaker 1: is difficult to change your character, So why not make
Speaker 1: it easier on yourself by understanding those things that are
Speaker 1: true about you that you can put to work for
Speaker 1: you instead of allowing to limit you. Right, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think there's a few things that are obviously the
Speaker 1: effort that we spend on changing things we can't change
Speaker 1: is wasted effort. And so it takes a certain amount
Speaker 1: of effort to make real change, and so let's put
Speaker 1: that effort where it can act make a difference. Also,
Speaker 1: that idea of structuring things I think we all underestimate myself,
Speaker 1: included the importance of our environment around us in who
Speaker 1: we become, how we act, what we do. I mean
Speaker 1: the classics simple explanation, because I work with people on
Speaker 1: behavior and actually making change and transformation. The classic stupid example, right,
Speaker 1: is that if you don't want to eat junk food,
Speaker 1: don't have it in the house. Right, That's that's your environment.
Speaker 1: But but that's pretty profound. I mean, it sounds simple,
Speaker 1: but do it and it it makes a big difference.
Speaker 1: And so there's so many different things that are like that.
Speaker 1: And you use a phrase in the book, Um, I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna read what you said as you say, I'm
Speaker 1: the kind of person who blank is a powerful phrase.
Speaker 1: No matter what goes in that blank, our identities evolved
Speaker 1: as we move through life. Sometimes this happens without our
Speaker 1: even noticing. And I think that is such a profound
Speaker 1: statement that I watch so closely for I'm the kind
Speaker 1: of person who X like. I work with people on
Speaker 1: making changes in their life, and so I will often
Speaker 1: hear people say I'm the kind of person who just
Speaker 1: can't stick with anything. I'm the kind of person who
Speaker 1: has no self control. I'm the kind of person and
Speaker 1: and my experiences those are traits that can be or
Speaker 1: behaviors that can be changed. I mean, there was a
Speaker 1: point where, you know, all I did every day was
Speaker 1: steal and put a neal in my arm. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm a long long way from there. Um so, so
Speaker 1: big change is possible in those ways. But I worry
Speaker 1: about that I'm the kind of person who X. But
Speaker 1: the flip side of that is one of the things
Speaker 1: you talk about is like highly sensitive people, and we'll
Speaker 1: move to that next. A trait of highly sensitive people
Speaker 1: is the stimulus around them is you know, up loud.
Speaker 1: That's the only way I can think to put it um,
Speaker 1: and so I think I have some of those traits,
Speaker 1: Like if somebody is eating really loudly next to me,
Speaker 1: I can't ignore it. I know that that's such a
Speaker 1: trivial thing to care about. I know it's but yet
Speaker 1: despite all my efforts, I mean, you know, all the
Speaker 1: changes I've made in my life, that one it's just
Speaker 1: makes me crazy. If there are five or six people
Speaker 1: talking at the same time, I can't filter it out.
Speaker 1: So that's the sort of thing that I think is
Speaker 1: a useful understanding of personality because I go, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: that's ah, that's kind of the way I am. So
Speaker 1: what do I do with that? First, I don't think
Speaker 1: I'm an awful person because I can't do it. And secondly,
Speaker 1: then I try and limit my exposure to those situations.
Speaker 1: So I think that's a really useful example of personality.
Speaker 1: And then you go on to talk about Carol Dweck,
Speaker 1: and we've had Carol on the show the fixed versus
Speaker 1: growth mindset. One of the more fundamental lessons that I
Speaker 1: think I've gotten from this show is is to look
Speaker 1: in any situation and where am I being in a
Speaker 1: fixed versus growth mindset? And so what I liked about
Speaker 1: your book was it was very clear about here are
Speaker 1: some things that you know, probably a fixed mindset makes
Speaker 1: sense about, like how tall I am, you know, being
Speaker 1: the most obvious example, but in the areas where a
Speaker 1: growth mindset is a more useful tool. But you could
Speaker 1: wear heels, and so could I, and I do well.
Speaker 1: Never scratch it from the record, Chris, nothing wrong with
Speaker 1: anybody wearing heels. Don't. Don't anybody take that wrong. Nothing wrong.
Speaker 1: A matter of fact, the truth be told. I have
Speaker 1: worn heels. Okay, it's out there. Now we're gonna move on.
Speaker 1: I didn't mean that an agendered kind of way. What
Speaker 1: I was thinking, though, was that I'm I'm very familiar
Speaker 1: with Carol duex work, and I think, I think eric
Speaker 1: that I'm the kind of person who has a growth mindset.
Speaker 1: But every once in a while I surprised myself by
Speaker 1: catching myself in a fixed mindset in a place I
Speaker 1: didn't realize. So all I mean is if you write
Speaker 1: something off immediately like oh I'm five nine and I
Speaker 1: will be forever and there's nothing I can do about it,
Speaker 1: you could be um forcing yourself to be stuck when
Speaker 1: that's not necessary. And height might be a silly example,
Speaker 1: but we also think things like I'm the kind of
Speaker 1: person who could never stick with an exercise play in,
Speaker 1: or I'm the person who could never do a handstand
Speaker 1: or a pull up, or I'm the kind of person
Speaker 1: who you know, It's funny. The kind of email I
Speaker 1: get the most about this book and about personality has
Speaker 1: to do with highly sensitive people. And I get emails
Speaker 1: that say I get them every week that say I
Speaker 1: thought I was the kind of person who wasn't cut
Speaker 1: out for family life, but it turns out I'm just
Speaker 1: a highly sensitive person who cannot tolerate six people talking
Speaker 1: to me at once. And knowing that about myself is fine.
Speaker 1: So just being clear on if the limitation we perceive
Speaker 1: is actually accurate is really important. But if we don't
Speaker 1: know to to ask ourselves those questions, then then we
Speaker 1: are stuck. Yep, that's why I mean, I do think
Speaker 1: the wisest three lines ever written are probably that first
Speaker 1: part of the Serenity prayer. I mean, the gold is
Speaker 1: in that wisdom. You know, what can I change and
Speaker 1: what can I I mean quality of I mean that
Speaker 1: just is such a huge disclaimer. The thing about Carol Dweck.
Speaker 1: Also that really struck me and I thought was such
Speaker 1: a useful thing was that we can be both in
Speaker 1: a fixed and growth mindset about different things in our life.
Speaker 1: It's not a I'm always like I'm fixed mindset about everything,
Speaker 1: where I'm growth mindset. It's really interesting to see where
Speaker 1: I or other people bump up against the fixed mindset.
Speaker 1: And I love hearing how other people do encounter that
Speaker 1: fixed mindset or the growth mindset in ways I didn't
Speaker 1: expect in their own lives because it helps me come
Speaker 1: back and evaluate my own life and think, am I
Speaker 1: doing that. I love to hear other people's specific examples.
Speaker 1: Nothing else has been more effective for me in helping
Speaker 1: myself get out of the ways I tend to just
Speaker 1: get stuck in my thinking. So let's move on to
Speaker 1: highly sensitive people. I touched it very briefly, and the
Speaker 1: reason I want to move on to it is because
Speaker 1: I have heard from lots of listeners about you know,
Speaker 1: they'd like to hear more about this topic. So now
Speaker 1: I've got somebody who's written about the topic, it would
Speaker 1: be negligent of me not to take advantage of it.
Speaker 1: So tell me about highly sensitive people. What does that mean. Sure. Well,
Speaker 1: people often hear that and think, oh, it means you're emotional,
Speaker 1: or it means you're touchy, or it means you're sensitive,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't. It refers to your nervous system and
Speaker 1: basically it's running it a little bit higher frequency than
Speaker 1: that of the general population. People are highly sensitive. That
Speaker 1: is true across species. You could have a highly sensitive
Speaker 1: labrador or guinea pig. That is a real thing. And
Speaker 1: what's funny is that the highly sensitive guinea pig, I'd
Speaker 1: buy that. So this is a framework developed by Elaine Arran,
Speaker 1: and I love her books, especially The Highly Sensitive Person.
Speaker 1: And if you are a highly sensitive type, I might
Speaker 1: start actually with the Highly Sensitive Child instead because you
Speaker 1: will read your own story there as well as a
Speaker 1: child and teen. If you're highly sensitive as an adult,
Speaker 1: you are highly sensitive as a kid too. And the
Speaker 1: Highly Sensitive Person has some information about like sexual abuse
Speaker 1: and how that may affect highly sensitive people that may
Speaker 1: be very difficult for highly sensitive people to read. So
Speaker 1: to you know, thirty second book Plug. But the funny
Speaker 1: thing is that this is not actually a personality framework
Speaker 1: in the traditional sense, but I included it in the
Speaker 1: book because it has impacted me in so many other
Speaker 1: people and opened my eyes in similar ways. It as
Speaker 1: me that lens through wish to understand myself and the
Speaker 1: way I approached the world and the way I interact
Speaker 1: with the people around me. So I included it here.
Speaker 1: To what extent are there variations in being highly sensitive?
Speaker 1: Can you be highly sensitive in a particular sense but
Speaker 1: the other senses don't really trigger you in the same way?
Speaker 1: What accounts for some variation that? Because some of the
Speaker 1: stuff I look at and I go, that is absolutely me,
Speaker 1: and then others of it I go, well, I don't
Speaker 1: think that's really you know, And and looking at other
Speaker 1: people I know, um, you know, I look and I go,
Speaker 1: I can see a couple instances of what seems to
Speaker 1: be very high sensitivity, and yet everything else I see
Speaker 1: looks more or less like you know less. So so
Speaker 1: I'm kind of curious, what's the level of variation look
Speaker 1: like in that? Do they know? It's pretty high? So,
Speaker 1: highly sensitive people are more sensitive to stimuli than that
Speaker 1: of the general population. Um. While there are common themes
Speaker 1: like the difference, stimuli can be diverse, like noise and
Speaker 1: sound are common triggers, but clutter can so be which
Speaker 1: surprises a lot of people at first. But if you
Speaker 1: think of a kitchen counter with no white space, it's
Speaker 1: that lack of white space that is just causing a
Speaker 1: mental overload. And the highly sensitive people. UM, A classic
Speaker 1: highly sensitive trigger for children is like sock seams or
Speaker 1: the tags and shirts. I wish when I was a
Speaker 1: kid that they had those amazing tag free shirts that
Speaker 1: they have now that my kids have. People can be
Speaker 1: overwhelming too highly sensitive people because people are very stimulating. Um.
Speaker 1: Big feelings can be very stimulating to highly sensitive people.
Speaker 1: So can emotional stimuli or like like action movies or NPR.
Speaker 1: So if you see yourself as the type of person
Speaker 1: who wants to go curl up in a ball in
Speaker 1: the corner and suck your thumb after watching network news,
Speaker 1: you might be a highly sensitive person. It's definitely a
Speaker 1: useful concept and I recognize, like I said, big parts
Speaker 1: of it in myself. Um. Well, put in the show
Speaker 1: notes links to you obviously your website, um, your book,
Speaker 1: and we'll also put a link into the highly sensitive
Speaker 1: online test. Oh yes, and Elaine Aaron has that great
Speaker 1: self assessments and the thing about high sensitivity that sets
Speaker 1: it apart from a lot of other personality frameworks, is
Speaker 1: that most people don't feel ambiguous about this. They'll read
Speaker 1: the checklist and go like, huh, I didn't know some
Speaker 1: people were like that, or that's not me, but that's
Speaker 1: my brother, or they'll go like, oh, is that weird
Speaker 1: because that's me. I thought everybody was like this, Yes,
Speaker 1: this is this is me. I get it now. Excellent.
Speaker 1: So I want to throw in a couple other things
Speaker 1: here that I just picked out from the book. And
Speaker 1: one is I love to bring in ideas that have
Speaker 1: long resonated with me that show up in a book
Speaker 1: that I have an opportunity then to talk about. And
Speaker 1: and one that I love it. I think I first
Speaker 1: discovered it in Stephen Covey's Seven Habits of Highly Effective People,
Speaker 1: which I still claim as a masterpiece. It sounds like
Speaker 1: you learned it from a couple of group at church.
Speaker 1: But the idea of the emotional bank account, can you
Speaker 1: talk to us about what that means? And and this
Speaker 1: also plays into more than just the emotional bank account.
Speaker 1: It ties into being highly sensitive, or the concept does
Speaker 1: in some ways. Sure, So we all have things that
Speaker 1: that drain us of energy, and we all have things
Speaker 1: that fill us with energy. This has often talked about
Speaker 1: in the context of introversion extra version, with introverts recharge
Speaker 1: their mental and physical batteries by having quiet time alone,
Speaker 1: and for extroverts is the opposite. Well, the same can
Speaker 1: really be true about our relationships with other people. So
Speaker 1: the people we love the most, who we live with,
Speaker 1: who we see the most, are the ones that will
Speaker 1: probably bring us the most joy but also disappoint us
Speaker 1: the most. And we know that as humans um. But
Speaker 1: problems arise when we don't have a healthy balance in
Speaker 1: the positive. So when I think about the emotional bank account,
Speaker 1: emotional gas tank, what we're thinking about is properly balancing
Speaker 1: or you know, as much as possible, you want to
Speaker 1: be in the black and not in the red. You
Speaker 1: want to have a lot more deposits into that good
Speaker 1: feelings bank than you do withdrawals, because we're all going
Speaker 1: to make the hopefully we're all going to make deposits
Speaker 1: and our loved ones accounts, or our coworkers or bosses
Speaker 1: or you know, neighbors. But um, because where people we
Speaker 1: will make withdrawals will do things that hurt them well
Speaker 1: disappoint them, will be deliberately cruel or just casually forgetful,
Speaker 1: and ways that hurt their feelings and make them feel bad.
Speaker 1: But um, if we don't keep that balance in the
Speaker 1: positive or that fuel tank towards the upper end of
Speaker 1: the gage, um, we are going to be in trouble. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I love that idea because it takes into account the
Speaker 1: fact that, like you said, inevitably we are going to
Speaker 1: do something that disappoints the people we love, but that
Speaker 1: we also hopefully are doing lots of things that are positive.
Speaker 1: And so every time we do something kind and we
Speaker 1: can debate what people think is kind the five love
Speaker 1: languages you talk about in the look, and I think
Speaker 1: that's a useful framework. We don't have time to go
Speaker 1: into it here. But the longest short of is, every
Speaker 1: time we do something positive for the other person, we're
Speaker 1: we're putting money into that bank account, you know, whether
Speaker 1: it's keeping a promise or doing something extra nice, or
Speaker 1: saying nice things or whatever they are. We you know,
Speaker 1: there's that bank account. The balance builds up, and then
Speaker 1: you know, when inevitably we do something wrong, you pull
Speaker 1: out of that. But as long as to your point,
Speaker 1: there's enough in there. The relationship works. So I think,
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, that struck me as such a useful
Speaker 1: concept because it's another way to get away from what
Speaker 1: I think bedevils a lot of us, which is sort
Speaker 1: of um, very black and white or very extreme thinking
Speaker 1: that anything we do wrong is a is a catastrophe.
Speaker 1: You know, that we have to be perfect all the time.
Speaker 1: I like the model because it sort of shows that, like,
Speaker 1: it's not what you do exactly in one moment, although
Speaker 1: that matters, but it's what you do consistently over a
Speaker 1: period of time. And by doing things consistently positive over
Speaker 1: a period of time, you get a positive result even
Speaker 1: if there's some negatives mixed in there. And I think
Speaker 1: it's a useful perspective exercise in that way. And then
Speaker 1: it also makes me think. You quoted John Gotten in
Speaker 1: the book Who's you know, a marriage family therapist counselor,
Speaker 1: but he has something that I think is really interesting,
Speaker 1: says that you know, you need about five positive things
Speaker 1: for every one negative remark that you make to sort
Speaker 1: of balance it out, you know, to have a to
Speaker 1: have a good relationship, you just sort of need like
Speaker 1: five positive experiences for each one negative because negatives are
Speaker 1: you know, so powerful, and we can talk about the
Speaker 1: negativity bias and all that. I think that's a really
Speaker 1: interesting concept. I can think of times where I've been
Speaker 1: in relationships where that ratio is completely flipped and it
Speaker 1: is just awful. I mean, it's just miserable. You know,
Speaker 1: it's five negative things for every positive thing. I just
Speaker 1: have found that concept to be useful when I'm dealing
Speaker 1: with people. I found it very useful as my son
Speaker 1: was growing up, because you know, I'm trying to do
Speaker 1: really good things and all that, and there will come
Speaker 1: a time where I'm like, it happened very rarely, but like,
Speaker 1: I'm going to miss this event of his and I
Speaker 1: tried to never miss any of them and blah blah blah,
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna miss this. And I could look at
Speaker 1: that in a context of overall actions and go, you
Speaker 1: know what, Okay, I'm in balance here. I'm in the
Speaker 1: positive here with him because of all these other things.
Speaker 1: So this one thing isn't isn't this catastrophic thing. It's
Speaker 1: just I think it's a way to sort of help
Speaker 1: us think about how we interact with people, and also
Speaker 1: to put our interactions with people into a broader context. Yes,
Speaker 1: and I love how viewing your relationships in this way
Speaker 1: can positively change the story as you tell yourself. So
Speaker 1: instead of saying, Oh, I'm as terrible father because I
Speaker 1: wasn't at my kids game, you can think, look how
Speaker 1: many deposits I've made in his account? This is a
Speaker 1: withdrawal and that's fine because I'm the kind of person
Speaker 1: who continually makes deposits. And it also you talked about
Speaker 1: how sometimes you need to act your way into it.
Speaker 1: This is something you can do without getting obsessed about.
Speaker 1: Am I the kind of person who will never disappoint
Speaker 1: my loved and you don't have to go into that story.
Speaker 1: You can be the kind of person who chooses to
Speaker 1: look for ways to make deposits into their accounts. It
Speaker 1: breaks into tiny pieces. It's very actionable, and it turned
Speaker 1: you into the kind of person who accomplishes that big,
Speaker 1: scary thing that you might not claim right off the
Speaker 1: bat because it feels a little too audacious. I would
Speaker 1: never becomes oh, I do this every day, step by step.
Speaker 1: I agree, and that makes me think of you know,
Speaker 1: we've talked about people and changing behavior and all that,
Speaker 1: and that's one of the things I work with people
Speaker 1: that I'm doing coaching with is that I say, you know,
Speaker 1: our goal is to get to whatever the thing is
Speaker 1: you want to change, Like, if we can be upwards
Speaker 1: of consistently, you've won. Like, so let's just say it's
Speaker 1: I want to have an exercise or meditation habit. If
Speaker 1: you're doing it of the time, you want to do it.
Speaker 1: But you do that one month, three months, six months,
Speaker 1: three years, you do that, that's a huge victory. But
Speaker 1: even within that, you'll notice that leaves you with you know,
Speaker 1: roughly say thirty six days a year that you will
Speaker 1: screw up. And I find that just knowing that if
Speaker 1: you screw up thirty six days a year you can
Speaker 1: still be winning is such I mean, it sounds so stupid.
Speaker 1: Like of course, we wouldn't think if it was our
Speaker 1: friend doing it that achieving at the time was bad.
Speaker 1: We would think that was amazing. But we can be
Speaker 1: so hard on ourselves because we just don't have the
Speaker 1: tools to picture it in a way that really helps
Speaker 1: us exactly. We can make one of those screw ups
Speaker 1: into a catastrophe. And that's a way I see a
Speaker 1: lot of people, myself included, get off track. We're doing
Speaker 1: well and then life intervenes and we suddenly don't do
Speaker 1: very well for a day or a couple of days,
Speaker 1: and then the old you back to the fixed versus
Speaker 1: growth mindset, the old story starts up here. I go again.
Speaker 1: I'm the kind of person that can't do it. See
Speaker 1: I knew I wouldn't be able to do it. I
Speaker 1: can't stick with anything, And before you know it, we're
Speaker 1: off track again in a permanent way, versus going, oh,
Speaker 1: that was just a temporary blip on a much bigger picture,
Speaker 1: and so tying this back to the emotional bank account.
Speaker 1: It's a it's a way of broad name perspective to
Speaker 1: realize that. Um. I think Gretchen Reuben, who you quote
Speaker 1: in your book, says, you know, it's not what we
Speaker 1: do once that matters. It's what we do every day
Speaker 1: or consistently. And again not that wants of certain things
Speaker 1: isn't bad, but it's it's a perspective, yes, And I
Speaker 1: think what the human brain needs on any Tuesday afternoon,
Speaker 1: when we're faced with an emotional crisis or even a
Speaker 1: small decision, is we don't know how to approach that issue.
Speaker 1: We don't know what matrix to plot it upon. We
Speaker 1: don't know how to think about it. And what I
Speaker 1: love about the emotional bank account, or like any of
Speaker 1: the frameworks in the personality books, they give us simple
Speaker 1: tools for like, oh, this is going on, this is
Speaker 1: how to think about it in a way that will
Speaker 1: help you and not send you into a downward destructive spiral. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so we're near the end of our time. And the
Speaker 1: last thing I'm going to say is that the one
Speaker 1: chapter of your book I didn't read because I was
Speaker 1: a little bit time limited was the one on the angiogram.
Speaker 1: It's so fun and the inngiogram happens to be the
Speaker 1: personality test that I have I most get value out
Speaker 1: of and and the reason I at value out of it,
Speaker 1: and maybe it's built into some of the other ones
Speaker 1: and I just haven't gone deep enough. I love what
Speaker 1: the innagram does. And this goes back to your like,
Speaker 1: if you want to type yourself, well, see where you
Speaker 1: screw up. I love that the indiagram shows like, okay,
Speaker 1: so like I'm a nine, I think, but I'm very
Speaker 1: close to a three and a seven, but I'm a nine,
Speaker 1: And it says, you know, a nine who's functioning well
Speaker 1: will look like this and I go, yeah, that's me
Speaker 1: sometimes most of the time, hopefully, And then a nine
Speaker 1: who's not doing well will look like this, and I go, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: those two people look completely opposite in the way they're behaving,
Speaker 1: in the way they're manifesting. So if you just looked
Speaker 1: at the the outward behavioral symptom, you'd go that those
Speaker 1: people are very very different, you know. But if you
Speaker 1: look at it from that perspective of there's this underlying
Speaker 1: sort of personality traits and that depending on whether that
Speaker 1: person is thriving or not thriving, those things are going
Speaker 1: to go different directions. I've just found that to make
Speaker 1: that framework particularly useful for me. Yes, I resonate with
Speaker 1: you there, maybe especially because I am a nine um
Speaker 1: and I said that and aogram was fun, and I
Speaker 1: think it is, But it is also brutal because it's
Speaker 1: true the angiogram, more than any other personality framework, your
Speaker 1: type is confirmed for most people by hearing the story
Speaker 1: of how that type is likely to um self destruct.
Speaker 1: So if you can look at how you tend to
Speaker 1: sabotage yourself and what things tend to send you crying
Speaker 1: to the corner, you can get your type right. And um,
Speaker 1: you know that's not fun to go through, but like
Speaker 1: having those insights about yourself is amazing. I agree. I
Speaker 1: have found that to be a particularly useful framework. Well,
Speaker 1: and thank you so much. This has been a fun conversation.
Speaker 1: I'm sure we could do it for a lot longer.
Speaker 1: But like I said in the show notes, we will
Speaker 1: have links to your site, your podcast, and um, you
Speaker 1: know a couple of the books and resources we talked
Speaker 1: about in the interview. So thank you so much, thank
Speaker 1: you for having me. All right, bye yea. If what
Speaker 1: you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making
Speaker 1: a donation to the One You Feed podcast. Head over
Speaker 1: to one you Feed dot net slash support. The One
Speaker 1: You Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors
Speaker 1: for supporting the show.