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Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 1: Chuck and Jerry's here too, sitting in for day, which

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Speaker 1: you guessed. It makes this a short stuff, and it's

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Speaker 1: a short stuff about a question that will probably never

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Speaker 1: be answered. What is a mcguffin?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I offered up a definition of my

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Speaker 2: own recently, and I'm not even sure what I said you.

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Speaker 1: I think you went with the second definition. Okay, that

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Speaker 1: we're covering here, all right, But there's I mean, even though,

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Speaker 1: so there's a couple of different definitions. They contradict each

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Speaker 1: other in certain ways, but there are some things they

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Speaker 1: agree on, and that is that a mcguffin is a

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Speaker 1: plot device. It moves things along to some way, to

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Speaker 1: some degree or another, it motivates characters in a story

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Speaker 1: or a movie. And what it is specifically and what

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Speaker 1: role it ultimately plays in the plot, that's what That's

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Speaker 1: where the definitions differ. And so just based on what

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Speaker 1: I just said, that means that figuring out what a

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Speaker 1: mcguffin is is the mcguffin of this episode of short stuff.

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Speaker 2: This would that wouldn't be the central premise of the

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Speaker 2: short stuff.

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Speaker 1: I don't know man, this is this is brain breaking.

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Speaker 1: This is like economics, quantum physics, and jackhammer is all

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Speaker 1: put together.

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Speaker 2: Well, the first sort of definition I think, example wise,

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Speaker 2: is the Maltese falcon is kind of always if you

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Speaker 2: if you look up anything about the mcguffin, they'll usually

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Speaker 2: kind of point to the Maltese Falcon film as one

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Speaker 2: of the best examples. It was a novel and then

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Speaker 2: later a movie where Humphrey Bogart played Sam Spade and

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Speaker 2: the mcguffin is the Maltese fact falcon. It's his statuette

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Speaker 2: of a bird in the movie. But it's really not

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Speaker 2: about that Maltese falcon the object. It's about what happens

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Speaker 2: to try and get a hold of this thing.

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Speaker 1: Basically, okay, okay, I okay, so this is where the

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Speaker 1: this is where I don't get it. So there's definitions

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Speaker 1: out there from screenwriters who say the Maltese falcon is

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Speaker 1: the point, this is the object that does everything in

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Speaker 1: the movie. All of the actions are based on getting

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Speaker 1: their hands on the Maltese falcon. There would be no

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Speaker 1: plot whatsoever if the Maltese falcon didn't exist. Ergo, that's

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Speaker 1: what a mcguffin is. It's the thing that moves the

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Speaker 1: entire movie. Yeah, right. The other definition is no. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it causes some action, and as far as the characters

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Speaker 1: are concerned, it's the most important thing, but it actually

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Speaker 1: isn't all that important in the overall plot. I get

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Speaker 1: the first definition of mcguffin quite clearly, but this other

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Speaker 1: definition I can not get because every time I say, okay, well,

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Speaker 1: then let me try to figure out what is an

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Speaker 1: example of a mcguffin there, I usually come up short

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Speaker 1: and it ends up basically falling into the first definition instead.

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Speaker 2: I don't see the difference much of a difference between

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Speaker 2: the two definitions.

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Speaker 1: I know there's not much difference, but the idea that

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Speaker 1: it's irrelevant or the most important part of the entire plot,

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Speaker 1: that's that's a that's a difference for sure.

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Speaker 2: Okay, but ultimately the Maltese falcon itself isn't like and

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Speaker 2: the cure for cancer is inside and we can save

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Speaker 2: the main character, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I'm gonna go with your take on this because

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Speaker 1: I'm not the one who had a movie podcast.

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Speaker 2: So a good example of the second one, and we're

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Speaker 2: going to go over some more famous examples too at

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Speaker 2: the end. But in Raiders of the Lost Ark at

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Speaker 2: the beginning, that little gold head statue that he's that

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Speaker 2: he gets. If you had never seen that movie before,

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Speaker 2: you know he saw it for the first time, you

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Speaker 2: might think like, oh, this object that he's recovering is

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Speaker 2: like super central to the plot perhaps, and it's not

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Speaker 2: at all. So that's just sort of the first mcguffin

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Speaker 2: in that movie. They're usually introduced in act one, although

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Speaker 2: George Lucas has come out and said that he thinks

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Speaker 2: the actual arc of the Covenant is also a mcguffin.

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, you sent that and I don't get that.

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Speaker 1: Then that's the thing that motivates everyone's action. It's the

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Speaker 1: most important thing in the entire movie. How is that irrelevant?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean because I guess because in the end

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Speaker 2: they just go stick it in a box and put

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Speaker 2: it in a warehouse.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So then let me ask you this. You reference

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Speaker 1: like the multice Falcon haveying cure for cancer. If the

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Speaker 1: point of getting the Arc of the Covenant was to

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Speaker 1: open it up and like just and all of the

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Speaker 1: ills of the world, and then they did that at

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Speaker 1: the end, would that mean it's no out the mcguffin

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Speaker 1: then or mcguffin.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, because I don't think that was the

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Speaker 2: driving point of them trying to find the arc, like

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Speaker 2: that was a byproduct of it.

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Speaker 1: If it had been, though, oh.

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Speaker 2: Well, geez, I don't know. That movie so ingrained, it's

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Speaker 2: hard to sort of reframe it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I say we take a break, we'll regroup, take

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Speaker 1: a couple of film classes, and come back.

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Speaker 2: That sounds great.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Chuck, I've got another another attempt here. This one

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Speaker 1: makes a little more sense to me. In the The

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Speaker 1: Murder of Roger Ackroyd, the Agatha Christie book. Have you

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Speaker 1: ever seen? It's really good. No, It's essentially what the

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Speaker 1: what Knives Out the first one is based on. But

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Speaker 1: in there, the character, the main character, the titular character,

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Speaker 1: Roger Ackroyd. He is murdered, and he was murdered to

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Speaker 1: get so the murderer could get their hands on a

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Speaker 1: blackmail letter. Okay, the blackmail letter with the name of

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Speaker 1: the blackmailer. That's important to the characters, but it's not

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Speaker 1: really the point of the overall plot. The point of

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Speaker 1: the overall plot is Hercule Paul Rose's investigation to uncover

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Speaker 1: who murdered Roger Ackroyd. So in that sense, that blackmailer

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Speaker 1: letter is the mcguffin. How about that one?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it seems like a mcguffin to me.

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Speaker 1: Okay, okay, we're on the trail. So I think my

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Speaker 1: problem is this, Chuck. It's not that I can't understand

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Speaker 1: what a mcguffin is. It's that I can't understand why

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Speaker 1: some things that are mcguffins are called mcguffins, and other

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Speaker 1: things that aren't considered mcguffins aren't mcguffins. That's that's my

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Speaker 1: big problem here. I'm just going to shut up about

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Speaker 1: it from now on, but I just want to make

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Speaker 1: sure I go on the record saying.

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Speaker 2: That, all right, well it all comes. It came pre Hitchcock,

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Speaker 2: But Hitchcock is the one that sort of made it famous.

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Speaker 2: I guess he used it in a lot of his movies,

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Speaker 2: for sure, and he had a couple of different explanations

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Speaker 2: over the years. One is that it was something vitally

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Speaker 2: important to the characters but of no importance to me,

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Speaker 2: the narrator. Another one I saw him say was, it's

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Speaker 2: the thing that the spies are after, but the audience

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Speaker 2: doesn't care about, which was where he and George Lucas

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Speaker 2: diverged because George Lucas apparently R two D two was

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Speaker 2: a mcguffin in Star Wars. He said, I think the

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Speaker 2: audience should care and tally like, if the audience doesn't

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Speaker 2: care as much about R two as Luke does in

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Speaker 2: finding him, then like the emotional tilt will be off.

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Speaker 1: Yeah for sure. But Hetchcock was able to pull off

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Speaker 1: what he was saying, and that say, like the microfilm

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Speaker 1: or whatever, you don't really care if the bad guys

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Speaker 1: get it or Carry Grant gets it. You want to

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Speaker 1: make sure that Carry Grant and was it Grace Kelly

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Speaker 1: who is in north By Northwest? You just want to

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Speaker 1: make sure that they're both okay. You don't care about

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Speaker 1: the microfilm?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure. The movie Psycho is one of

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Speaker 2: the classic examples, because you know, everyone remembers the Baits Motel.

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Speaker 2: But I think if you haven't seen the movie in

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Speaker 2: a while, if you're not a student of that film,

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Speaker 2: you may forget that whole first part in the first

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Speaker 2: act where Janet Lee the reason she goes to the

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Speaker 2: Bates Motel is because she's on the run. After stealing

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Speaker 2: forty grand from her employer. And that forty grand, that's

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Speaker 2: the mcguffin that it never comes up again.

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Speaker 1: No, but it's the thing that initially motivates the character's actions.

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Speaker 1: It gets her to flee. She's on the lamp that

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Speaker 1: takes her to the Bates Motel, and then the actual

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Speaker 1: plot begins.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but what about the word itself?

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Speaker 1: Well, you sent something and I've read this ten times

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Speaker 1: and I still don't get how it explains what a

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Speaker 1: mcguffin is. So I think I'll leave it to you.

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Speaker 1: But it's the one time Hitchcock tried to explain the

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Speaker 1: origin of mcguffin or what it is. I think.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he credits a writer that he worked with named

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Speaker 2: a Scottish guy named Angus McPhail, And one of the

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Speaker 2: theories is that it just comes from the root word

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Speaker 2: guff which is a word that means like something said

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Speaker 2: that's trivial or meaningless. So that certainly has a little

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Speaker 2: bit of weight. But another story is that apparently McPhail

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Speaker 2: had told this story to Hitchcock, where he said, two

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Speaker 2: Scottish men are riding on a train. One man asked

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Speaker 2: the other about the contents of a package on the

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Speaker 2: overhead luggage rack. He said, it's a mcguffin device for

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Speaker 2: hunting tigers in Scotland. And the other guy said, but

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Speaker 2: there are no tigers in Scotland. And he says, well,

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Speaker 2: then I guess it's not a mcguffin.

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Speaker 1: Still do not get it, well, I mean to me.

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Speaker 2: That just means it's sort of like that illustrates its meaninglessness.

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Speaker 1: Okay, okay, we'll go with that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't see what else it could mean.

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Speaker 1: I don't either. I don't see what it can mean

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Speaker 1: in any case. Like it's like, yeah, I don't know

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Speaker 1: who knows. I think your interpretation's right. I can kind

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Speaker 1: of sink my teeth into the history of this because

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Speaker 1: you said that it predates Hitchcock, although he popularized it

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Speaker 1: apparently decades before that. This was TV Tropes who pointed

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Speaker 1: this out. There was a silent film actress named Pearl

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Speaker 1: White and then the kind of action cliffhanger serials that

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Speaker 1: she started. They were always chasing after some like role

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Speaker 1: of film or some treasure or something like that, and

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Speaker 1: she called them Weeni's but they were essentially what she

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Speaker 1: was saying. They were the plot devices. That was driving

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Speaker 1: all of the character's actions.

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Speaker 2: I like Weenie.

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Speaker 1: I like Weenie too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty good.

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Speaker 1: Bring that back.

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Speaker 2: My favorite mcguffin I think is probably from Escape from

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Speaker 2: New York. Oh yeah, the cassette tape.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a cassette tape of Donald Pleasants as the President,

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Speaker 2: and you know, he's trapped on the prison island of

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Speaker 2: New York and Snake Plisken is tasked with going to

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Speaker 2: get him and crucially that cassette tape back because it's

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Speaker 2: some big important speech to the world and you don't

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Speaker 2: even hear it at the end because well, I don't

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Speaker 2: want to spoil it, but you never end up hearing

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Speaker 2: what's even on that cassette tape. So that's sort of

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Speaker 2: a classic mcguffin.

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Speaker 1: Similarly, another John Carpenter movie that had a great mcguffin

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Speaker 1: was the thing with Wilford Brimley being the mcguffin from

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Speaker 1: my understanding.

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Speaker 2: Of mcguffins, Yeah, that's a great movie.

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Speaker 1: You said, R two is the mcguffin in Star Wars

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Speaker 1: Episode four. I think that's awesome. I had never thought

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Speaker 1: about that before. But he's the droid that they're after

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Speaker 1: because he has the plans for the Death Star. Another

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Speaker 1: one that comes to mind is that mysterious briefcase that

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Speaker 1: belonged to Marcellus Wallace that Vincent and Jules go retrieve

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Speaker 1: in pulp fiction.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, classic mcguffin, And that one is I mean, I

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Speaker 2: love pulp fiction, but that one definitely seems like Tarantino

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Speaker 2: really wanted to write in a classic mcguffin I think.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and he did. Yeah, And they also they never

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Speaker 1: say what was in the briefcase no, and it just

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Speaker 1: kind of falls away from the plot eventually too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, I think I have a bad taste

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Speaker 2: in my mouth about Tarantino in general lately.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what is it about like men who have power

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Speaker 1: and fame and reach like their fifties and just completely

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Speaker 1: just jerk out. I don't know, I don't get it.

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Speaker 2: Well, my time is coming, I guess.

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Speaker 1: No, I think you've passed the point.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so once you hear fifty four or fifty five,

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Speaker 2: then you're safe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I think you made it through the great

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Speaker 1: filter of becoming a jerk.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, your time's coming, then.

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Speaker 1: I know I'm really having to hang out you'll be

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Speaker 1: all right. I'm going to follow all of your examples,

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Speaker 1: including your definition of mcguffin, and I think we should

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Speaker 1: stop talking about mcguffins now, all.

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Speaker 2: Right, And hey, we'll say this right in. We'd love

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Speaker 2: to hear from film students and film centephiles and see

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Speaker 2: if you guys can give us a clearer definition.

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Speaker 1: That's a great call, Chuck, great call. Short Stuff is out.

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Speaker 2: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

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