1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, and welcome 3 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. 4 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: This is one of those interviews where as soon as 5 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 1: the publisher's team emailed us and said that this author 6 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 1: was doing interviews, I was like, we have to have 7 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: her on. I think I typed maybe in all caps 8 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: message to Tracy to that effect. Um, I know, I 9 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: kind of jumped up and down in my seat and 10 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: kind of sent a note to the publisher to that effect. Um. 11 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: That her that we're speaking of is Stephanie Jones Roger. 12 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 1: She's an assistant professor at Berkeley's Department of History, and 13 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: in her dissertation when the learner Scott Prize, which is 14 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: given to the best doctoral dissertation in US women's history 15 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: each year. So she took that dissertation and expanded it 16 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: into the book that's the topic of today's episode. That 17 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: book is they were her property, White women as slave 18 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: owners in the American South. This uses financial and transactional 19 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 1: records to corroborate accounts from formerly enslaved people about their 20 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: experiences and the resulting work is unflinching and difficult, but 21 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: also really important and how it affects our knowledge about 22 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: the business of slavery and specifically white women's place in it. 23 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: So first up, Stephanie shared what led her to this 24 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: area of study, and then she talks a good bit 25 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: about how she conducted her research. So the first thing 26 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: I have to ask is what first drew you to 27 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 1: this particular avenue of research and writing. So UM, I 28 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: went to Workers University, and I was studying with Devil 29 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: Gray White, UM, the great Devil Gray White. And so 30 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: as I was completing my coursework UM back in Keep 31 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: Having and nine UM, I began to UM explore the 32 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: work that had been done on people UM in the 33 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: nineteenth century as well as that scholarship that had been 34 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: produced about white Southern women. And so you know, I 35 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: became really interested in the question of whether white Southern women, UM, 36 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: particularly married women, had an economic stake in the institution 37 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:17,399 Speaker 1: of slavery, whether they invested economically in the institution. And 38 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: that question seemed to have two kind of two answers 39 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: emerged in those two sub fields of of history. So 40 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: in the histories UM written about white Southern women and 41 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: their relationships slavery the way that that relationship is characterized 42 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 1: primarily in all of these non economic ways. So um ideologically, UM, 43 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: socially UM, even you know, indirectly perhaps UM economic UM 44 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:48,079 Speaker 1: in its basis, But largely there was this idea that 45 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: white women in the South had a very distanced relationship 46 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 1: to slavery, and far more often that married women had 47 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: no economic relationship to the institution of slavery, in large 48 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: part because of the ways that law is constrained women's 49 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: ability to own property and to to hold onto and 50 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: control property after marriage. But on the other hand, those 51 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: scholars who looked at the experiences of African Americans during 52 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: this period, and particularly enslaved people, were saying something very different. UM. 53 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: They were drawing on a different set of sources, and 54 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 1: they were UM saying that formerly in a people talked 55 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: about female owners. They talked about me and brought and 56 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: sold by women. UM. They talked about other individuals who 57 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:33,959 Speaker 1: they knew in their communities with an own bought or 58 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: sold by women. And so I was really interested in 59 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: this disconnect UM, and became frustrated by that disconnect between 60 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: these two subfields of history. And so I was really 61 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: interested in and addressing that question had on addressing the 62 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: question of whether white women had an economic um a 63 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: deep and economic investment in the institution of slavery, and 64 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: also showing what those investments looked like, um from the 65 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: perspectives of those individuals who they owned and had the 66 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: most intimate and deep experience of their their control, their 67 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: ownership and control, and those who are forms like people work. 68 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: So that was really where it started from kind of 69 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: a frustration, a moment of frustration, and then um, it 70 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 1: grew from there, Um the project, whether that's the frustration, 71 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: the project grew from there. Uh, did you find it 72 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: difficult to track down information and accounts about white women's 73 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: role in slavery and their economic stake in it? So 74 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: I thought was really fascinating was that, Um I just 75 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: kind of briefly mentioned it just now, is that it 76 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 1: seemed that the reason why there was this disconnect between 77 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: or this lack of consensus around the question of whether 78 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 1: white women and married white women in particular had an 79 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 1: economic investment and stake in the institution slavery was largely 80 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: driven by different store faces. So the scholars of white 81 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 1: Southern women we're using typically using the letters and the 82 00:04:56,120 --> 00:05:00,040 Speaker 1: diaries of white Southern women to craft these accounts in 83 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 1: histories of white Southern women's relationships to slavery. Whereas those 84 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: individuals who focused on the experiences of African Americans, we're 85 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: using these interviews that were conducted by federal employees at 86 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 1: the behest of the federal government during the nineties and 87 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: nineteen forties, where formerly in people were asked about their 88 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: um experiences and bondage and so um. For me, it 89 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 1: was okay, which which of these sources I go to? First? 90 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: I went to the diaries and the letters of white 91 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: Southern women to see what they had to say about 92 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: their economic investments in the institution. And while yes, they 93 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: did talk about it, they didn't talk about it often, 94 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 1: and they didn't talk about the sale and purchase of 95 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: inslave people very often. And so I then said, okay, well, 96 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: the people who were talking about it most frequently are 97 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,119 Speaker 1: those individuals who are subjected to this this control, this power, 98 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: this the sales um and the purchases and the separations 99 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 1: that were brought about by it by these sales um. 100 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: So I looked to formally inslade people's um testimonies and 101 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: their interviews and used the information that they provided in 102 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: those interviews to help me to develop a strategy for 103 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: where to go next. So by listening to what they 104 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 1: had to say, by reading and being very attentive to 105 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: UM what they were saying about white women's economic investments 106 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 1: in the institution, I was able to develop a kind 107 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: of course of action. So from their interviews as then 108 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: went to financial records UM and found women UM just 109 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: as they said I would in you know, in the 110 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 1: records UM that documented the purchase and sale of enslaved people, 111 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: they were identified as both the buyers and sellers of 112 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: enslaved people. I found them in UM court records where 113 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,359 Speaker 1: you know, if someone had sold them UM an enslaved 114 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: person who was unwell and that person didn't disclose an 115 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: illness to them when they purchased them, they could go 116 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 1: into court and sue them. So I found women you 117 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: know who owned inslaved people in legal records and court records. 118 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: And during the Civil War I found them in military 119 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: correspondence between Union officers as well as you know Confederate 120 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: official And then of course there were slave traders, individuals 121 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: typically men who who as a as a as a 122 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: job as their professional bought and soulden state people for 123 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: a living, and I found women in their account books 124 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: and in letters that they will to their business partners. 125 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: So by by paying close attention to what formerly people 126 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: said about these these married women's economic relationships to the 127 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: institution of slavery, I was able to find them in 128 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: all of these other bodies of of sources and documents, 129 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: basically collaborating and legitimating what formerly inslaved people had to 130 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: say about white married women's um economic investments in the institution. 131 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: So I'm glad you touched on that because one of 132 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: the things I really really love about this book is 133 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: that you do destroy that tendency that has happened over 134 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: years and years and years for people to dismiss some 135 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: of these accounts from formerly enslaved people as unreliable by 136 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: backing up their stories with a ton of corroborating documentation, 137 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: like you have all the receipts um At what point 138 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: did you realize that you were going to be able 139 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: to piece this puzzle together in that way and finally 140 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: validate some of those voices with evidence that cannot be disputed. Well, 141 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: I thought, what was really fascinating is but but so 142 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: what I did for what I What I said to 143 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:27,119 Speaker 1: myself first is that who better to tell us what? Uh? 144 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: You know, how deeply invested white women were in the 145 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: economist slavery then those individuals who they owned, you know, 146 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: until by starting from that position, by starting from the 147 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 1: position that no one could tell us the story of 148 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: life slave, only women's economic investince in the institution more clearly, 149 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: more cogently, and more powerfully than formally enslaved people, took 150 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: them seriously. I took them at their word. And then 151 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 1: I started to realize, like it wasn't hard to make 152 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: these connections and to corroberate the evidence, because, for example, 153 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: there were individuals who identified their former female owners by first, 154 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: last name, even by their maiden names. So there were 155 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 1: all these ways in which they gave me the data 156 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:15,679 Speaker 1: that I would need and or the information that I 157 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: would need to be able to go to other sources 158 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:20,959 Speaker 1: like the census, for example, so I could read what 159 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: one formerly slave person said about an owner. Say, Okay, 160 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: they gave me the first, middle and last name of 161 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: this person, the approximate area where they grew up, so 162 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 1: the where the person lives, and I would go to 163 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: the census and there there's a woman you know that 164 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: they talked about. So, you know, just by taking them 165 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: very seriously and using their sources in the way that 166 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 1: we use other sources, you know, like Washington, you know, 167 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: George Washington, you know letters or his you know, diary 168 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: or whatever, you know, I was able to go to 169 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: these other sources and find the women exactly where they 170 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: said they would be. UM and and the way that 171 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:00,040 Speaker 1: they characterized them I was able to find for and 172 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: information that was basically it suggested that they were quite 173 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: accurate in um, their their characterizations of the institution, but 174 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,959 Speaker 1: also the ways in which they implicated white Southern women 175 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 1: and white married women in particular in the economy of 176 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: American slavery and and continued sub ocation. So the evidence 177 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: has all been there for a long time. Why do 178 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: you think it took so long for someone like you 179 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: to go, you know, we can put this stuff together. 180 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: So on the one hand, UM, so I should say that, 181 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: there are, of course, um many scholars who have looked 182 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 1: to these sources and have produced these really extraordinary studies 183 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: of um, you know, kind of the complexities of slavery. UM. 184 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: And they have also implicated you know, white women in 185 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: the story of slavery, UM. But the economic dimension, particularly 186 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: when it comes to married women, I think is on 187 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:57,079 Speaker 1: the one hand, UM issue related to the laws at 188 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: the time, UM, And I'll just mentioned briefly, so there 189 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: was there was a legal doctrine called curvature, which essentially 190 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: mandated that if a woman who was either single or 191 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: widowed owned any property before marriage, once she became married. 192 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: Once she married, all of the wealth that she brought 193 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: into the marriage would automatically become her husband. So unless 194 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:25,719 Speaker 1: women um figured out ways around this law, around these 195 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: property laws UM that constrained and limited their ability to 196 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 1: own and control property and enslaved people, this is what 197 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,079 Speaker 1: would happen. And so for a very long time, many 198 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: scholars of slavery and many scholars of Southern women really 199 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: just I think embraced this idea that this was a 200 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: very all encompassing kind of legal system, a legal doctrine 201 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: that really did foreclosed the possibility that married women could 202 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: in fact own and control enslaved people in the ways 203 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: that I've show in the book. But what I did 204 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 1: again is go to what formally insread people had to say, 205 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 1: And so they were saying things like, oh my, my, 206 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: missions only by law and not her husband. So I'm like, well, 207 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: what do they mean by law? How could this be? 208 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: And so what I found in the legal records is 209 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: that women, these white other women who owned inslaved people, 210 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 1: particularly those who were married, were very explicit about how 211 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,079 Speaker 1: they came to own in flave people. They would give 212 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: they would provide documents and provide proof to the court 213 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: that and in that proof, what they would demonstrate was 214 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,839 Speaker 1: that there was this chain of ownership that they would establish, 215 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: the ways by which the means by which they came 216 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: to acquire inflave people as their own. And so what 217 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,199 Speaker 1: those documents also show is that women found ways. Married 218 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: women found ways around these legal constraints. And so by 219 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: listening to what formally inslaved people had to say, I 220 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: was able to then even kind of kind of conceive 221 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 1: of the idea that this was possible. And by thinking 222 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 1: about this as a possibility, I then had to show 223 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 1: how it was possible. And so the legal records show, um, 224 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,599 Speaker 1: the ways in which women were very savvy in navigating, 225 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: you know, um, using loopholes and navigating around them of 226 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: these constraints imposed upon them. So I think in large 227 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 1: part it was because of UM. This this the way 228 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: that we thought about these laws and the kind of 229 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,599 Speaker 1: constraints impose upon women in this period because of a 230 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: mad women in this cio, because of the law. I mean. 231 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: The other thing I think is because you know, women's 232 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: history UM was born in a moment in which the 233 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: woman's movement was was powerful, that it was gaining momentum, 234 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: and so the histories that were produced in those in 235 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 1: those in that moment, they were also part of that project, 236 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: part of a feminist project. And this is a very 237 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: and I say it all the time, this is a 238 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: very ugly feminist history, you know. I mean from one angle, 239 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 1: you know, these women are able to secure a kind 240 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: of freedom and autonomy in their lives UM in a 241 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 1: way that we would not imagine, that would be fathomable 242 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: for these fom in this periods. But they're able to 243 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: do that by owning and engraved people, by owning and 244 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 1: oppressing other people. That's that's an ugly that's an ugly 245 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: dimension of his very feminist story. So I think in 246 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: some ways it's a story that doesn't mesh well. It 247 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: didn't mesh well with the feminist project of the sixties 248 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: and the seventies. You know, so I think those those 249 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: are two primary reasons why I think, you know, although 250 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: the sources had been there, and people had mold over 251 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: the sources and produced extraordinary studies using these same sources. UM, 252 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: those things, I think UM kind of four closed the 253 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: possibility that this particular story would be told in the 254 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: way that I did. Coming up, Stephanie and I talked 255 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: about how she coped with facing research that was often 256 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: really upsetting and really waited on her. But first we're 257 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: going to take a little break in here from one 258 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: of our sponsors. One of the things about this book 259 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: is that there are a lot of accounts in it 260 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: that you um shared that were relayed by formally enslaved people, 261 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: and they are stories that are so important, but they 262 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: are also really difficult to read in some cases. UM. 263 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: It's a lot of very heavy, ugly information. Did research 264 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: in writing on this subject ever get a little bit 265 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: overwhelming for you? Did you ever have to just be 266 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: like not anymore today? I that was a very very frequent, 267 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: a very frequent experience to me. I mean, I you know, 268 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: admittedly some of your some of your listeners may not know, UM, 269 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: but I am um an African American woman. I am 270 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: a descendant of Sara Crapper, I am a descendant of Southerners. 271 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: I am a descendant of formally inslaved people. And so 272 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: from that position, it was very difficult from a personal 273 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: position for me to write this book because I'm too 274 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: learning about what my ancestors endured. But also at the 275 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: same time, as a historian, it was very difficult for 276 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 1: me to grapple with the atrocities that were perpetrated against 277 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,040 Speaker 1: formally inslaved people and that they survived. But what I 278 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: Austin reminded myself of when I would take a minute, 279 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes I would have to take a day 280 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: or two off because it was just so emotionally impactful 281 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: for me. And what I would often remind myself of 282 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: is that these formal inslaved people, these African Americans, were 283 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: giving these interviews in a time of lynching and a 284 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: time of severe racial hostility and racial terror and racial violence, 285 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: and they did that in spite of the risks and 286 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: the danger. And so they and that underscores to me 287 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: how important they thought it was for us as a 288 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: nation to know their stories, to know what they had 289 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: un endured, and to grapple with that as part of 290 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: our national history. So for me, it was it was 291 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: it was a duty in any respects for me to 292 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: return to these accounts, to return to the writing in 293 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: order to do justice to the formally enslaved people who 294 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: sat down and risked their lives and their respects to 295 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: tell all their stories. So for me, although it was difficult, 296 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: and I know for readers it's very hard um to 297 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:08,439 Speaker 1: read many of the accounts that I put that I 298 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: that I put forth in this book, but I all 299 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: always want to bring it back to the fact that 300 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: these were individuals who thought it was so important for 301 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: us to know what happened to them and to know 302 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 1: what they survived, and to know that this was part 303 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 1: of our national story, you know. So that's that's the 304 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 1: thing that brings me back to the work every single time. 305 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 1: And they are so important. One of the things that 306 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: you talk about in this book is how young girls 307 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: in white families were given this identity of being slave 308 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: owners as part of their upbringing, which is something I 309 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: don't think we always think about children kind of being 310 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: involved from an early age. Will you talk a little 311 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: bit about that. Absolutely, So, you know, many of the 312 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: many of the histories that we do have about white 313 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: women and slavery, White women in the context of slavery 314 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: often start when they are adults, when they are married, 315 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: when they have already you know, kind of lived you know, 316 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: lived these childhoods and girlhoods and have you know, raised 317 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 1: that they were raised up in the South. But often 318 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,679 Speaker 1: the story of their relationships that slavery begins when they're 319 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: adults and when they're in marriages or in widowhood. And 320 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: so for me that was really interesting because people started 321 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: the story in infancy, and you know, so they talked 322 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: about white girls, even white Asians, white female inciants, who 323 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: were given in plaved people as gifts, whether at birth, 324 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: for birthdays, whether as Christmas gifts many times and many 325 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: were in many cases they were given enclaved people as 326 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 1: wedding presents. So in Puma inflave people talked about the 327 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:49,880 Speaker 1: fact that well before these were married, they were developing 328 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 1: identities as Southern women or Southern females that were that 329 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: was taught to identities that were tied to either actual 330 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 1: slave ownership or the promise of lave ownership at a 331 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: later date. Um. And so for me it was really 332 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: important to begin the story there because it helps to 333 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: explain a lot of stuff that happens later on. It's 334 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 1: helped to explain why, for example, when women were married, 335 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 1: when married, when slavery own and women married, that the 336 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:18,679 Speaker 1: women in this book that I talked about in this 337 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,360 Speaker 1: book weren't willing to relinquish their control over and slave 338 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,120 Speaker 1: people and other forms of property to their husbands. They 339 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: have developed these identities that were tied to their ability 340 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: to own and control and slave people and to to 341 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,679 Speaker 1: own property, so they weren't willing to just simply relinquish 342 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: that control to their husbands, you know. So it explains 343 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: that when you start the story when they're little girls, 344 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:44,640 Speaker 1: and you see how profoundly um slavery shaped their identities 345 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: as Southerners, as as as white Southerners in particular. So 346 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: that's why I start the story there, because that's really 347 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: where um I think we need to begin in order 348 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: to understand what unfolds over the course of their lives, 349 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: particularly once they reach adulthood. You also talk kind of 350 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: the other end of the timeline spectrum about how white 351 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 1: women defended the institution of slavery, particularly as it was 352 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 1: becoming a parent. That it was coming to an end. 353 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: Will you talk a little bit about that as well. 354 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: One of the things that other historians looked at white 355 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: women's relationships in the institutions states we have shown is 356 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 1: that slave owing parents typically gave their daughters more slaves 357 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: than they did land. So what they had in mind 358 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: this idea that when their their children married that they 359 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: would have every They wanted them to have everything that 360 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 1: they needed to get a great start. So what they 361 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: would typically do is they would give their sons um 362 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: the land and would give their daughters more emplaced people, UM, 363 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 1: so that once those daughters and sons married, they would 364 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,880 Speaker 1: have everything needs to get started, get a household started. UM. 365 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: And So when you think about the fact that many 366 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 1: of these the women in this book are often UM, 367 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 1: if not a significant slave owner in the household that 368 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,439 Speaker 1: they go into when they marry, UM, there are others 369 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 1: that are primarily only they are the only save holders 370 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: in the household. Some of these women are the only 371 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: property owners in the household, so they are the ones 372 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: who bring both the slaves and the land and where 373 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: exception rare cases, UM to the household. So their husbands, 374 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: their their husband's identities are not necessarily tied to slavery 375 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: and slave ownership in the ways that their their their 376 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 1: wives are, And so when the Civil War emerges in 377 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: and it becomes kind of clear the writing is on 378 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 1: the wall that emancipation is inevitable, that the dissolution of 379 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: slavery is around the corner. These women, who are in 380 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: some cases more deeply invested economically invested in the institution slavery, 381 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: more profoundly tied to the institutions slavery um and slave 382 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:54,719 Speaker 1: ownership than their husbands, they understand that the war means 383 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: that emancipation means their financial ruin. So they are fighting 384 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: tooth and now to preserve the institution of slavery, not 385 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 1: simply as indirect beneficiaries of the institution, but because they 386 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: have a direct economic stake in the institution's preservation, because 387 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: they are the primary or or significant slave owners in 388 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: their household. And so they understand that with emancipation, the 389 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: value of those people that they hold in captivity it's 390 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 1: going to be gone, it's going to be zero, and 391 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: so they will be financially destitute. So they fight throughout 392 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 1: the war. They fight their own battle to preserve slavery. 393 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,439 Speaker 1: In large part because of these economic investments. And then 394 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: when it's over, not only are they devastated because of 395 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: the losses of the men and the boys in their 396 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: lives who went off to war never came back, but 397 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 1: they are mourning a financial and economic loss. One woman 398 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 1: described it, described emancipation as an unprecedented robbers. These women 399 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 1: saw that all this wealth, the value in free people 400 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: was being stolen from them by the federal government. So 401 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: they try to recreate um circumstances that um looked very 402 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 1: much like smacked of slavery. Um, these kind of pseudo 403 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 1: slavery circumstances after the war was over, and hosts that 404 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: they could hold on just for a very for a 405 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: little while longer, hold on to the kind of the 406 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 1: value of free labor um, meaning the labor that and 407 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,640 Speaker 1: slaved people offered to them or provided to the most 408 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: course to offer to them um as the owners, as 409 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: their legal owners. So it's really interesting that, you know, 410 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: when you think about women as slave owners and what 411 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: individuals who could in fact have been the only slaveholders 412 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 1: in the household. The Civil War and white women's responses 413 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,439 Speaker 1: to the war looked quite different, you know, And so 414 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 1: that's what the book shows um as well, Um, while 415 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: you were doing your research, which is so extensive and 416 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 1: I feel like so meticulous, did you come across any 417 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,199 Speaker 1: pieces of information and that surprised you. So there were 418 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,479 Speaker 1: two things that I thought were that I was just 419 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: you know, shot shot by even though I shouldn't have been, um, 420 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 1: you know, because of all the other things that formally 421 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 1: with people have to say about these women, I shouldn't 422 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,239 Speaker 1: have been shocked to find out what I did. So 423 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: one of the things that I really try to focus 424 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: on in the book is is, you know, these economic 425 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: relationships and investments that white women had any institution. And 426 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 1: while it was you know, it became kind of you know, 427 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: obvious to me after a while in the research that 428 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 1: you know, women would engage in slave market activities in 429 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: the ways that they did. And by a slave market, 430 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: I mean there was really there were really brick and 431 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: mortar structures where individuals could go and essentially shocked for 432 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: and slave people. Because I think some people don't realize 433 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 1: that that's not a metaphor, you know, it's you know, 434 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 1: it's like they were real markets. And so, you know, 435 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: I didn't expect to find out that white some white 436 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: women were involved in the business side of buying and 437 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: selling and slave people. So there's a woman that I 438 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 1: talked about in the book was part of a family 439 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: business where she would front the money UM, so she 440 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: would invest the money UM so that her her nephew 441 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: could buy the slave and sell the slave, and when 442 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: he sell the slave, she and her nephew would split 443 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,959 Speaker 1: the proceeds of those sales down the middle. UM. So 444 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,199 Speaker 1: I didn't expect to find women who were involved in 445 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: the business side of of of the slave, of the 446 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 1: slave trade and the business UM. I also didn't expect 447 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 1: for formul inslaved people to talk about white women who 448 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: owned slaves and who created circumstances in which they co 449 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: worked them into UM having UM sex against their will. 450 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: So there were in fact slave owning women who UM 451 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 1: committed access sexual violence or created circumstances in which access 452 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: actual sexual violence could be perpetrated against in slave people 453 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,199 Speaker 1: UM in this period. So that was another thing that 454 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 1: was surprising to me, although of course now I think, 455 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: you know, thinking back on it, it shouldn't have been surprising. 456 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 1: But those are two things that were really surprising that 457 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: I covered as I search for this book. In the 458 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: next segment, Holly asked Stephanie about the way women who 459 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 1: owned enslaved people saw themselves. But before we get into that, 460 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 1: we will pause for a quick sponsor break. You also 461 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 1: include some discussion towards the end of the book about 462 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: the disparity and you've talked about it already in this interview, 463 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,880 Speaker 1: some between the way white women of the time wrote 464 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,479 Speaker 1: about the institution of slavery and their role in it 465 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 1: versus the much uglier reality. And I wonder do you 466 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 1: think that was something of a pr move on their 467 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: part in characterizing themselves as generally kind and benevolent mistresses 468 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,679 Speaker 1: or even innocent bystanders in some ways, or do you 469 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: think they actually believe they were those things. I think 470 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: that there were some individuals who really did believe that 471 00:26:55,520 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 1: they were being kind of maternal, benevolent big years in 472 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 1: the institution of slavery. But the other I think there 473 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 1: were also many women who knew it was a lie. 474 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: Just to call it what it is, that they knew 475 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,159 Speaker 1: it was a lie. And so some of the women 476 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: that I discussed in that part of the portion of 477 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 1: the book pictured you're mentioning here, um, they were writing 478 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 1: these books and they have acknowledgements or dedications where they 479 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: make it clear they are writing these books, these accounts 480 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 1: for their descendants, for their grandchildren and their great grandchildren. 481 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: So they are very calculate, in a very calculated way, 482 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: in a very um purposeful way, constructing a whitewashed and 483 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: sanitized narrative that that positions then as these maternal, benevolent 484 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: views and positions slavery as a benevolent institution that was 485 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: good for black people. So they are very consciously constructing 486 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 1: a narrative that they know is a lie. Um. And 487 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: so of course, like you said formally and say, people 488 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,439 Speaker 1: like that's a lie. You know that's a lie, and 489 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: I'll tell you why it's a lie. So you know 490 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: you do see, yes, women you know were in fact 491 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 1: they did in fact styled themselves as you know, kind 492 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: of maternalists and benevolent figures. Um. But nevertheless, um, you know, 493 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 1: there were others that knew it was a lie and constructed, 494 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,919 Speaker 1: you know, narratives that erased the kind of darker dimensions 495 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,400 Speaker 1: and more violent dimensions and the economic dimensions of their 496 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: investments in the institution. Um uh, very purposefully. What's next 497 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: for you? I know, I read somewhere that you're collecting 498 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: additional data about this topic. Yes, so, um, there are 499 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 1: kind of I have on a couple of hats. So 500 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: one is a quantitative project UM which I've been working 501 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: on since about two thousand and fourteen, which essentially tries 502 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: he is trying to put the numbers UM in the story. 503 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: So the book doesn't really offer statistics, and that was 504 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,959 Speaker 1: intentional on my part in large part because I'm continuing 505 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: to work on the quantitative data trying to determine, you know, um, 506 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: give a sense of just how many women were involved 507 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: in the institution of slavery, who owned slaves, and so 508 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: I'm using census data and other smaller data sets throughout 509 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: the South to construct a database which will provide those numbers. 510 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: And just from the preliminary research UM I've I've learned 511 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: that in some cases that women constituted of the slaveholders 512 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: in certain regions of the South, and I'm imagining that 513 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: those members will also be replicated in the larger data sets. 514 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: Because you know, there's been work done in Britain on 515 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: slave owners um who you know, file for compensation once 516 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: Britain abolished slavery and women comes to the forty percent 517 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: of the applicants for compensation in Britain. So there are 518 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 1: ways in which I think there are these numbers. This 519 00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: this forty percent figures seems pretty consistent across UM, across 520 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: slave owning UM groups during this period. So I imagine 521 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: that the additional data that I look at, UM, the 522 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: quantitative data that I compile, will bear that out as well. 523 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: So that's that's that's the immediate one of the immediate 524 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: projects that I'm working. And I'm also working on what 525 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: I call the legal sequel of this project, because this 526 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: one was primarily focused on, you know, the economic dimensions 527 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: of women's investments institution, but the law made their ability 528 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: to kind of manipulate the law and to work around 529 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: certain laws made those economic investments possible. So I see 530 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: this book as a kind of necessary UM, kind of 531 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: second follow up, follow up UM to the to the 532 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: first book. So I'm working on a kind of UM 533 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: a llegal history UM of of white women's relationships to 534 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: the institution of slavery. Do you have any idea when 535 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: you started down this path that it would consume so 536 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: many years of your life? Absolutely not every not My 537 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: deepest thanks to Stephanie for talking with me. She is 538 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: an absolute delight in long after the interview ended, I 539 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: aked her ear off about all manner of things. If 540 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: you would like to catch up with her online, you 541 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: can do so at Stephanie Jones Rogers dot com that's 542 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: all run together, or on Twitter where she is s E. 543 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: J R. Underscore Historian. So the book once again is 544 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: they were her property, White women as slave owners in 545 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: the American South, and it's available wherever books are sold. 546 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: It is a really dense, like I mentioned in the interview, 547 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: meticulously researched read. There's a lot of information in that book, 548 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: and as we discussed, not always easy to read some 549 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: of those accounts of really the horrible things humans can 550 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: do to one another. But there's it's so so good. Um, 551 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: I really really loved it. I thought though, since this 552 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: was kind of a heavy topic, we would do some 553 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: mostly light listener mail, so I'm doing a little bit 554 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 1: of postcard round up again. The first one is from 555 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: I'm not sure if the name is Janna or Jonah, 556 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: but it is a lovely postcard from Scotland, and Jonah writes, 557 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: Dear Holly and Tracy, I am about to finish my 558 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: semester abroad and Edinburgh Sky Outland. I wanted to write 559 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 1: in and say thank you for keeping me company over 560 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: the last couple of months. I am studying history and 561 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: y'all always helped to remind me why I got into 562 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: this business. Y'all are amazing. Thank you so much, and 563 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: I hope your your time abroad has been spectacular because 564 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: that sounds lovely. It's a beautiful picture of Scotland, so 565 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: thank you very much for that. Our next one, I 566 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: won't read the whole thing, but I will mention it 567 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 1: is from our listener Allison, who sent uh was my 568 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: name with a couple of exclamation points, a beautiful picture 569 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: of a silk dress that was from a seventeenth century 570 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: shipwreck found in two thousand and four off the coast 571 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: of the Dutch Barrier island of I think it has 572 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: pronounced tesel. She mentioned some other things that were also 573 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 1: found in that shipwreck, but it's a really cool photograph 574 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 1: of this dress that I bet in its heyday was 575 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: utterly spectacular to behold. Um it looks a little, you know, 576 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: like it has been in a shipwreck, but you can 577 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: still see these vibrant pinks and yellows and and really 578 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: pretty weaving in the silk, So it's absolutely lovely. My 579 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: last one I'm not gonna read because it includes some 580 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: fairly personal information, but I wanted to just say hi 581 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: to this listener and how much we appreciate this letter. 582 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: It's from our listener, Jennifer, who wrote us about UM 583 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: being on medically for some stuff and listening to our 584 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 1: podcasts to kind of help her feel normal. And to me, 585 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: that is a great honor that we get to in 586 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 1: any way help someone get through a rough time. So 587 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: thank you so much for your letter, Jennifer. We are 588 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: thinking of you, UM, and we're so thankful to have 589 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: you as a listener. If you would like to write 590 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: to us, you can do so at History Podcast at 591 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: house works dot com. You can also find us pretty 592 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: much anywhere on social media as Missed in History. Can 593 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 1: also visit our website, which is Missed in History dot com. 594 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: And if you would like to subscribe to the show, 595 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: that's something we highly encourage. You can do that on 596 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, at Apple Podcasts, or wherever 597 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts. Stuff you Missed in History Class 598 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radios. How stuff works. 599 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: For more podcasts For my heart Radio, visit the i 600 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or ever you listen to 601 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: your favorite shows. H