Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to
Speaker 1: the White Tail Woods presented by First Light, creating proven
Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First
Speaker 1: Light Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on
Speaker 2: the show, I'm joined by Kip Adams of the National
Speaker 2: Deer Association to discuss what very well might be the
Speaker 2: most important action you can take this hunting season, filling
Speaker 2: a doteg all right, welcome back to the Wired to
Speaker 2: Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light and their
Speaker 2: Cameo for Conservation initiative, And as we are wrapping up
Speaker 2: the year, we need to talk about a very important issue,
Speaker 2: something that is important for your future deer hunting. The
Speaker 2: habitat where you deer hunt, the odds of seeing a
Speaker 2: killing mature bucks in the future, the future of deer
Speaker 2: hunting as a privilege that we can participate in the future,
Speaker 2: of our ability to effectively manage deer populations here in
Speaker 2: America as hunters, rather than having some other group of
Speaker 2: folks or service manage deer. That's how important our conversation
Speaker 2: is today because we are discussing antlerlus's deer harvest. Why
Speaker 2: it's becoming something that is increasingly of concern for folks
Speaker 2: within the deer hunting and conservation world. Why we are
Speaker 2: seeing deer harvest and antlerlass harvest in particular declining so
Speaker 2: substantially across many parts of the country. Why that's a risk,
Speaker 2: Why that's a problem, Why that could lead to worse
Speaker 2: deer hunting opportunities for you, and all those other things
Speaker 2: I mentioned. All of this we discuss with my guest today,
Speaker 2: mister Kip Adams, the top dog when it comes to conservation.
Speaker 2: Chief Conservation Officer I believe is his title at the
Speaker 2: Nation Deer Association, and he's going to detail for us
Speaker 2: all these things, explain why for almost all of us
Speaker 2: in the United States of America, other than a few
Speaker 2: areas of the northern reaches of the country where there
Speaker 2: are some lower deer populations, but most of the country
Speaker 2: we have a very very healthy deer population, if not
Speaker 2: too healthy, too many deer that are impacting the health
Speaker 2: of the deer herd, impacting the health of the habitat,
Speaker 2: and impacting all of the things. So that's the game
Speaker 2: plan today, discussing why all that's of concern, Why that's
Speaker 2: a problem, and then how we can do something about it,
Speaker 2: discussing everything from you know, how to determine whether or
Speaker 2: not all of this applies to you and your property.
Speaker 2: That's a key thing. Which kinds of places do need
Speaker 2: increased dough harvest? Which places don't. I want to make
Speaker 2: sure you can answer that question effectively. Number two, which
Speaker 2: dose should you be shooting the mature dough the young dough?
Speaker 2: How do you determine if it's a buck, fawn or
Speaker 2: a mature dough? How do you make sure that this
Speaker 2: is not a shed buck and it is a dough.
Speaker 2: All of these different questions we cover, as well as
Speaker 2: many others, and then finally we talk through some techniques,
Speaker 2: some strategies, from ideas for how you can fill those
Speaker 2: ante list tags. So we're gonna talk why, we're gonna talk, how,
Speaker 2: we're gonna talk when, and hopefully gets you all up
Speaker 2: to speed on what you can do to make a
Speaker 2: positive difference as a deer hunter and also sharing the meat,
Speaker 2: sharing this other folks who might be in need as well.
Speaker 2: That is the plan. This is how we're gonna wrap
Speaker 2: up the year. It's going to be an important episode.
Speaker 2: If you have a week left of the season, two
Speaker 2: weeks left of the season. I know some of you
Speaker 2: guys have more whatever it is, Please if this applies
Speaker 2: to you in your area, if you live in one
Speaker 2: of those places where you have those growing deer populations
Speaker 2: where not enough doughs are getting killed, please join me
Speaker 2: in participating in filling another dough tag or two. I
Speaker 2: know that I have goals of getting five plus more.
Speaker 2: We have an extended dough season this year in Michigan,
Speaker 2: so our season is going to go into mid January.
Speaker 2: It is, and I'm gonna be participating right on through
Speaker 2: the gory end of it. Hopefully gonna put some more
Speaker 2: meat in the freezer, share some with some family and friends,
Speaker 2: and have a really good time on the way. So
Speaker 2: that's the plan. Without any further ado, here's my chat
Speaker 2: with Kip Adams. All right here with me back on
Speaker 2: the line is Kip Adams. Thank you Kip for being here.
Speaker 3: Again, absolutely Mark, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: I always enjoy our chats. I always appreciate you making
Speaker 2: the time to do this, and today we are here
Speaker 2: with I think what's fair to say is an urgent
Speaker 2: call to action for anyone listening and I'm titling this episode.
Speaker 2: I think by saying something, by titling it as maybe
Speaker 2: the most important action you can take this hunting season.
Speaker 2: Something like that, Kip, And I'm curious, from your perspective,
Speaker 2: is killing an ant list deer filling an antlyst deer tag?
Speaker 2: Would that qualify as one of the most important actions
Speaker 2: a deer hunter can take this season in your mind.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And there are certainly places across the white Tails
Speaker 3: range where deer herd, you know, we're very low and
Speaker 3: antelyst harvest is you know, a light harvest is appropriate,
Speaker 3: but those places are few and far between. Most places
Speaker 3: where we have white tails because of the reproductive rate is
Speaker 3: so high, it just necessitates that hunters fill more ant
Speaker 3: list tags. Then we've been filling across much of the
Speaker 3: range over most of the past decade. So yeah, I
Speaker 3: agree with you, that's one of the most important things
Speaker 3: we can do to ensure the future. You know, we
Speaker 3: have a healthy deer herd next year and well into
Speaker 3: the future.
Speaker 2: So this is something that I'm seeing pop up more
Speaker 2: and more with a sense of urgency from people in
Speaker 2: the whitetail hunting conservation community. Definitely from the National Deer
Speaker 2: Association and other agencies on the country related to deer
Speaker 2: organizations related to deer. This this kind of flashing red
Speaker 2: light saying we need to take more antlers deer, we
Speaker 2: need to shoot more does we need to manage the
Speaker 2: populations more. What's going on for people who maybe have
Speaker 2: not been hearing this, who haven't been paying attention. What
Speaker 2: are these things that are making this so concerning where
Speaker 2: we are right now? And why has there been this increasing,
Speaker 2: you know, level of concern around if we're taking enough
Speaker 2: dos and people saying, hey, take more dos, take more dos?
Speaker 2: I mean we and in the state of Michigan, our
Speaker 2: deer lead deer biologists sent a very explicit letter I
Speaker 2: think it was last year to all hunters in the
Speaker 2: state of Michigan saying like, hey, you have to start
Speaker 2: taking more does otherwise we will not be able to
Speaker 2: have deer hunting as a management tool in the way
Speaker 2: we are right now. So it's getting to a pretty
Speaker 2: serious level here. Now. Can you just catch people up
Speaker 2: the speed if they have not been paying attention to
Speaker 2: this and not have been seeing this. What is causing
Speaker 2: this level of concern? Why is this becoming in the shoot.
Speaker 3: Sure. Well, you know, as hunter is one of the
Speaker 3: most important things we can do is, you know, make
Speaker 3: sure that we harvest enough antalysts deer to balance deer
Speaker 3: herds with what our habitats can support. And that often
Speaker 3: is it odds with what hunters want to see. And
Speaker 3: I'm the same way when I go hunting, I want
Speaker 3: to see deer and if I can see a lot
Speaker 3: of deer, you know, that's fun. I get it, that's fun.
Speaker 3: So as hunters, you know, nobody wants to go and says, man,
Speaker 3: I hope I don't see very many deer today. Well,
Speaker 3: we equate that to how many handless do we shoot. Well,
Speaker 3: if we shoot that deer, then there's fewer deer in
Speaker 3: the landscape, so we can't see as much. But the
Speaker 3: reality of it is we need to shoot appropriate numbers
Speaker 3: of antalysts deer to not have more than our areas
Speaker 3: can support, not as many as we want to see,
Speaker 3: because most areas cannot support as many deer as we
Speaker 3: would like to see as hunters. So historically we did
Speaker 3: a great job shooting bucks and not shooting dos, and
Speaker 3: that worked really well when we were trying to recover
Speaker 3: herds across most of the range. And it's funny to
Speaker 3: think back. You know, nineteen ninety nine is the first
Speaker 3: year in the US that we shot more analysts deer
Speaker 3: than bucks. Now, I know a lot of your listeners
Speaker 3: weren't born in nineteen ninety nine yet, and there's a
Speaker 3: lot of new hunters that makes that sounds like ancient times.
Speaker 3: But think about it. You know, we've been hunting white tails,
Speaker 3: you know, in the US almost one hundred years under
Speaker 3: you know, regulated hunting before we shot more dos in bucks.
Speaker 3: And that's really the whole QDM movement. That's when you know,
Speaker 3: the QDMA was was started. So hey, let's let's teach
Speaker 3: people the value of shooting dough. So fast forward, Mark
Speaker 3: with a lot of the education from when we're out
Speaker 3: the year two thousand up to the year about twenty ten,
Speaker 3: hunters really answer the call and we're harvested more analysts
Speaker 3: deer than bucks every year through that time, which was great.
Speaker 3: For the first time ever, we were getting deer herds
Speaker 3: pretty much in balance with what our habitats could support.
Speaker 2: That was awesome.
Speaker 3: Well, somewhere around you know, twenty eleven, in twenty twelve,
Speaker 3: we had a couple of terrible hemorrhagic disease years. We
Speaker 3: had some other things going on where hunters had reduced
Speaker 3: deer herds. Other side of mortality kind of took over,
Speaker 3: and suddenly deer herds dipped a little bit in many places,
Speaker 3: and it scared the heck out of hunters. So that's
Speaker 3: when they said, WHOA, let's back off. And since the
Speaker 3: early twenty tens, we have just been harvested and fewer
Speaker 3: and fewer and fewer analysts deer. That's what really brings
Speaker 3: us to where we are today because with everything, you know,
Speaker 3: that pendulum kind of swings, swings one way or man,
Speaker 3: we're harvesting a lot of analysts deer. Folks get nervous
Speaker 3: right now, it's kind of swung all the way to
Speaker 3: the other end where we're just protecting them too much.
Speaker 3: And as proof of this, we look at percentage of
Speaker 3: hunters in the US that are successful. A decade ago,
Speaker 3: it was about forty eight percent of all hunters would
Speaker 3: shoot a deer annually. You know, that's just one. You know,
Speaker 3: most people think man hunters are going out where everybody's
Speaker 3: killing them old. The reality is over half of the
Speaker 3: hunters don't shoot a single deer. If you look at
Speaker 3: now today, that's only about forty percent of hunters are successful.
Speaker 3: So what's happening is hunters are just choosing not to
Speaker 3: shoot deer. This isn't a matter of there's no deer available,
Speaker 3: deer herds a two. This is hunters making conscious decisions.
Speaker 3: I am not going to pull the trigger on in
Speaker 3: many cases that dough. So that's what's led us to
Speaker 3: where we are today. We're just harvesting deer at a
Speaker 3: lower rate at a time when deer herds are growing
Speaker 3: across most of the range. That's why you have more
Speaker 3: state wilife agencies than ever before today's imploring their hunters
Speaker 3: please take an ant list deer. So that's what really
Speaker 3: probably brings you and I to sitting together here this
Speaker 3: morning talking.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so are there any I guess, what are the
Speaker 2: signs that this is actually happening? So I know people
Speaker 2: are worried about it. I know the state agencies are
Speaker 2: worried about it. Have we seen this in the actual
Speaker 2: harvest reports? I mean I believe we have, because I
Speaker 2: think you and I have talked about this during some
Speaker 2: of our deer or conversations. But it seems like this
Speaker 2: is now translating to lower harvest numbers in the states
Speaker 2: that they're reporting. I think I've saw in Michigan like
Speaker 2: you said, or maybe this is something I was reading
Speaker 2: earlier today just about the fact that our deer harvest
Speaker 2: numbers have been going down dramatically in Michigan, like something
Speaker 2: like twenty five percent decline maybe last year or something
Speaker 2: along those lines. So this is translating. This isn't just
Speaker 2: like a vibes thing. This is like a real data
Speaker 2: thing too, correct.
Speaker 3: That's absolutely right. And states are measuring this with reduced
Speaker 3: ante list harvest, and this is at a time mark
Speaker 3: we are at historically high buck harvest, So we are
Speaker 3: killing as many or more bucks today than you know
Speaker 3: that we have almost every year in the past hundred years.
Speaker 3: So what that means is that shows us that deer
Speaker 3: herds are continued to expand that's how you have more
Speaker 3: bucks on the landscape. So we have actual data showing
Speaker 3: reduced antelyst harvest in many states, increasing buckharts in many states.
Speaker 3: That shows the deer herd is growing. We have reduced
Speaker 3: nutritional planes in many states. As they're collecting biological data
Speaker 3: on deer so they know, you know, kidney fat indexes
Speaker 3: showing deer going into winter with with lower fat levels,
Speaker 3: body weights by age class dropping. There's lots of different
Speaker 3: indicators showing we clearly have more deer and in many
Speaker 3: places more deer than we have good, high quality food available.
Speaker 3: So yeah, there's you know, states measure this stuff differently,
Speaker 3: but you know many, many states that they have absolute
Speaker 3: solid data showing deer herds are growing like crazy. We're
Speaker 3: shooting fewer dose. We're not shooting fewer bucks, We're shooting
Speaker 3: fewer dos. And that's why we really have to You know,
Speaker 3: it's fun to be shooting these bucks. That's awesome. I
Speaker 3: love too. Now's where the step is. Hey, as hunters,
Speaker 3: you know you got that, but like, that's awesome. Now,
Speaker 3: let's follow that up and make sure you get a
Speaker 3: dough or in many cases, you know, a couple of
Speaker 3: dose for each of those bucks that you're shooting.
Speaker 2: Okay, so what does this look like if this trend continues?
Speaker 2: I guess what I'm getting at here. What I want
Speaker 2: to better understand is what is the risk of inaction
Speaker 2: if we don't change this trend? If the deer populations
Speaker 2: continue to swell and we as hunters cannot manage them
Speaker 2: in balance with the habitat and balance with the herd.
Speaker 2: What negative ramifications might be in store.
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, if we're if we're not harvesting
Speaker 3: enough dose so that deer herds get too high. The
Speaker 3: first ramification is, you know, our deer herd health starts
Speaker 3: to suffer. They're just not getting you know, enough food
Speaker 3: to meet you know, their their growth requirements are certainly
Speaker 3: not to meet what their potential is. So that means
Speaker 3: body weights get smaller, means they can raise fewer fonds.
Speaker 3: It means anglers get smaller, you know, none of which
Speaker 3: hunters want. So that is the impact to deer. Then
Speaker 3: there's the impact to the habitat. If there's more deer
Speaker 3: than there should be, our habitats become degraded and then
Speaker 3: they can it can hold even if you were deer
Speaker 3: in the future. So that's the bad part to habitat.
Speaker 3: All those other wildlife species out there that share that
Speaker 3: habitat with deer now they're negatively impacted. So it's negatively
Speaker 3: impacting those And then from a hunter end, you know,
Speaker 3: we continue to have higher crop damage dollar amounts because
Speaker 3: of deer. We continue to have more other deer human
Speaker 3: conflicts like deer vehicle collisions, et cetera. So as those
Speaker 3: things increase, that just makes hunting become less important if
Speaker 3: we're not doing the job that we want. You know,
Speaker 3: only about four percent of our society hunts. You know,
Speaker 3: You and I are in the distinct minority in our kids,
Speaker 3: you know, and we don't get to do anything in
Speaker 3: this country because four percent of us want to do it.
Speaker 3: And you hear people say it's my God given right
Speaker 3: to hunt, and man, I wish it was, but that's
Speaker 3: not true. We get to hunt today because between seventy
Speaker 3: five and eighty percent of American adults support legal, ethical,
Speaker 3: regulated hunting, and they support that even though most of
Speaker 3: those donut support it, because they see hunters providing that
Speaker 3: free service to society. Part of that, or a big
Speaker 3: part of that, is harvesting enough antlyst deer to keep
Speaker 3: deer herds healthy. So as hunters, we want to do
Speaker 3: the best job possible to be providing that service to
Speaker 3: society so that we get to continue to do it,
Speaker 3: because if we don't, society is going to find an
Speaker 3: answer somehow. I'm doing everything possible every day of work
Speaker 3: to make sure that hunters are the champions and the
Speaker 3: ones that continue. So that's why we try to educate
Speaker 3: hunters on Hey, this is why it's in our best
Speaker 3: benefit to be shooting antlysts deer and be mentoring other
Speaker 3: people and encouraging them to shoot analysts deer. You know,
Speaker 3: we're not looking to get rid of all the deer.
Speaker 3: We're just looking to harvest enough so that we have
Speaker 3: a deer herd in balance, whether it's habitat, so it's
Speaker 3: very healthy deer herds, healthy habitat, and then you know
Speaker 3: that is what will allow us to hunt into perpetuity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, it's what's concerning, or one of
Speaker 2: the things that's really concerning when you look down the
Speaker 2: road is what happens when whitetailed deer are looked at
Speaker 2: as more of a nuisance and a pest and a
Speaker 2: detriment than as a benefit to the natural world and
Speaker 2: to society. And all right, we've heard from many years,
Speaker 2: like insurance companies not wanting there to be so many deer.
Speaker 2: Because of that, you're hearing more and more in city
Speaker 2: and suburban environments where deer are damaging not only cars
Speaker 2: and people's lives, but then also landscaping, whatever might be.
Speaker 2: But I think a thing that's popping up more and more,
Speaker 2: at least in my world in areas that I'm reading
Speaker 2: about and studying, I'm reading more and more about people
Speaker 2: within the environmental community and the larger conservation world looking
Speaker 2: at deer as one of the largest detriments to biodiversity
Speaker 2: and ecosystem health across the country, as this vast overpopulation
Speaker 2: of deer is destroying important habitat types that are important
Speaker 2: to pollinating insects, or it's all these other critters that
Speaker 2: need a healthy, thriving habitat. In areas where deer are
Speaker 2: overpopulated and we're not managing them, they're just crushing habitat,
Speaker 2: which then is impacting all these other at risk species.
Speaker 2: And like you said, if hunters aren't seen as a
Speaker 2: viable way to manage these deer in balance with the habitat,
Speaker 2: people are going to seek out other solutions and we
Speaker 2: will lose our opportunities because of that. So I think
Speaker 2: you know you've seen some of these things happen in
Speaker 2: suburban environments and city environments where cities and townships are
Speaker 2: hiring sharpshooters to manage deer populations. I don't know what
Speaker 2: that's going to look like and if that will continue
Speaker 2: to scale in some kind of way if we don't
Speaker 2: step up to the plate. But what are your thoughts
Speaker 2: on this biodiversity impact that I continue to read more
Speaker 2: and more about people looking at white tailed deer as
Speaker 2: a threat to many other species of wildlife because they're,
Speaker 2: you know, in some areas, just really leveling the vegetation.
Speaker 2: You see these browselines that are clearly define the lines
Speaker 2: across the landscape where there's hardly anything beneath it. Can
Speaker 2: you can you discuss that a little bit.
Speaker 3: More sure, And that's absolutely true what you're saying. And
Speaker 3: you know that's one of the reasons deer are known
Speaker 3: to be a keystone species. They have the ability to
Speaker 3: negatively or positively impact, you know, the area that they're living.
Speaker 3: There's very few other species that can can impact it
Speaker 3: to that level. Beaver's are one example. You know, beaver
Speaker 3: can come in and absolutely change the habitat where they are. Uh,
Speaker 3: deer are at the top of that list because deer
Speaker 3: are so good at surviving. Think about this deer, the
Speaker 3: oldest well white tails are the oldest deer species we have.
Speaker 3: You know, they've been around for over four million years.
Speaker 3: You know, they are good at surviving in many cases
Speaker 3: at the exclusion of other things that they share the
Speaker 3: area with. So you know, even if we do a
Speaker 3: poor job managing them, they continue to find a way
Speaker 3: to at least survive, maybe at lower levels than they
Speaker 3: are now, but they're going to continue now as they
Speaker 3: do that. This is where they are negatively impacting that
Speaker 3: for all those other wildlife species are out there, and
Speaker 3: where this whole biodiversity concern comes in, you know, in
Speaker 3: that conversation. Conversely, you know, if we do a good
Speaker 3: job managing them, they can be the champion for everything else.
Speaker 3: That's why the value of deer campaign, you know that
Speaker 3: we're so proud of in our spearheading now, is to
Speaker 3: let all those people out there that talk about the
Speaker 3: biodiversity or a concern to that that may not hunt,
Speaker 3: to make them aware of all of the positive things
Speaker 3: that deer provide in large part funding for our wildlife programs,
Speaker 3: you know, to protect all of those other species out there,
Speaker 3: butterflies and bees and non game and small game. So
Speaker 3: when hunters, when we get it right, Oh my gosh,
Speaker 3: we are, you know, the champion of champions. Deer are
Speaker 3: the vehicle to make that happen. So as managers, let's
Speaker 3: we know how to put a game plan together, we
Speaker 3: need the hunters to implement it. And then when hunters
Speaker 3: implement it correctly by shooting appropriate numbers of analysts deer,
Speaker 3: man it is so good for all of that biological diversity.
Speaker 3: When we fail to implement that part correctly, that's when
Speaker 3: it all starts to fall apart, and that huge segment
Speaker 3: of public that doesn't hunt starts looking at hunting in
Speaker 3: a negative light. So that's what we're trying to guard
Speaker 3: against here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think we're starting to see a larger
Speaker 2: proportion of our community recognizing the positive impact that we
Speaker 2: can have right on the larger natural world on the environment,
Speaker 2: especially those of us who are fortunate to have land
Speaker 2: that we can manage and improve. Like we've seen many
Speaker 2: of us have seen the absolutely tangible impacts we can
Speaker 2: have on the landscape by you know, improving the early
Speaker 2: successional habitat component or planning food plots, or managing timber
Speaker 2: or whatever might be. All of those things help deer
Speaker 2: and they help all of these other creatures, and so
Speaker 2: many of us are starting to see the value there
Speaker 2: and how we can benefit the everything. We can benefit
Speaker 2: the biodiversity. But a really important piece, like one of
Speaker 2: the very most important things we can do, maybe more
Speaker 2: important than making some of these habitat improvements or just
Speaker 2: as is this dear antlelus harvest management component of it.
Speaker 2: If you just improve habitat but you're not managing the
Speaker 2: dell population, you probably are. You know, you're missing out
Speaker 2: on a huge upside that could be there if you
Speaker 2: were to do both right. So they go hand in hand. Now,
Speaker 2: another thing here that I have heard increasingly getting bandied around,
Speaker 2: and something that I think is concerning to many hunters,
Speaker 2: is one of the more aggressive proposals that I have
Speaker 2: been hearing for those people within the government or otherwise
Speaker 2: trying to manage the deer population. People saying, hey, we
Speaker 2: got to get these deer populations down. It's becoming dangerous,
Speaker 2: it's damaging the environment, it's etc. Etc. The idea of
Speaker 2: putting a dollar value on on deer again and allowing
Speaker 2: folks to monetize them, and opening up market hunting to
Speaker 2: some degree again to try to incentivize harvest can you
Speaker 2: speak to how viable that is? Is that? Is that?
Speaker 2: Is that a real threat? Is that actually possible down
Speaker 2: the line, and why is that concerning if it were
Speaker 2: to happen.
Speaker 3: I think that it I'll answered the first question is
Speaker 3: is that a real threat? I think absolutely. You know,
Speaker 3: we have markets in wildlife in other places. You know,
Speaker 3: you're allowed to sell muskrat meat in Maryland, that's done
Speaker 3: all the time. We sell hides of fur bearers, we
Speaker 3: sell fish, so uh, you know, uh, deer are not
Speaker 3: allowed in that. You know when we ended the whole
Speaker 3: market hunting back in the early nineteen hundred, you know,
Speaker 3: that's what saved deer populations and it's been such an
Speaker 3: integral part of our North American model of wildlife conservation.
Speaker 3: You know, no markets for that, well, there's always been
Speaker 3: loopholes around that, not for deer, but for other species.
Speaker 3: So is it a viable discussion? I think absolutely. I
Speaker 3: think it's something you know, that should scare the heck
Speaker 3: out of a lot of hunters. You know, we have
Speaker 3: the opportunity to fix this right now that in my opinion,
Speaker 3: commercializing white tails would be a bad idea for the
Speaker 3: future of wildlife management. I don't think that's good. And
Speaker 3: I'm not somebody that's a traditionalist and just has to
Speaker 3: go by what we have done in the past. I
Speaker 3: am all about finding solutions and thinking out of the box.
Speaker 3: I just personally don't think that is a good one
Speaker 3: for white tails, at least not now. You know, maybe
Speaker 3: in the future that may be necessary, but right now,
Speaker 3: I don't. I do not think that's a positive thing
Speaker 3: for deer or the future of our over wildlife management programs.
Speaker 3: But it's absolutely something that's being talked about more and
Speaker 3: as the number of hunters that are at least the
Speaker 3: percentage of the US population the hunts continues to decline,
Speaker 3: that is something that would become a more real and
Speaker 3: real discussion and something that could absolutely be on the
Speaker 3: table for hunters in the future.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So again another clear reason why we need to
Speaker 2: take control this issue now ourselves, rather than let somebody
Speaker 2: else take control of the narrative and put those kinds
Speaker 2: of solutions on the.
Speaker 3: Table, right for sure, for sure.
Speaker 2: Okay, So, one of the things that we always hear
Speaker 2: when the topic of antelus harvest comes up is well,
Speaker 2: there's no deer in my area or everyone already shoots
Speaker 2: all the dos where I am, or this will crush
Speaker 2: the deer population where I live. I'm not going to
Speaker 2: do that. How can someone determine whether or not this
Speaker 2: issue applies to them? How can you determine whether or
Speaker 2: not you should be harvesting antelus deer where you hunt?
Speaker 3: Well, I think that you know, what hunters need to
Speaker 3: recognize is that all of our state wildlife agencies, you know,
Speaker 3: implement our hunting seasons, and they manage deer on a
Speaker 3: wildlife management unit or a deer management unit or deer
Speaker 3: management zone basis. You know, as hunters, we hunt at
Speaker 3: the property level. Our wildlife agens aren't managing deer at
Speaker 3: the level that we hunt. They're managing them on a
Speaker 3: larger scale. And then we need to realize that in
Speaker 3: across those units, there are places where there's more deer
Speaker 3: than there should be. There may be some places where
Speaker 3: there's fewer deer than they should be in somewhere it's
Speaker 3: right about in balance. So that's where you have someone
Speaker 3: to say, there are no deer in my unit. Well
Speaker 3: maybe there's no deer on your property. That's probably not true,
Speaker 3: but just understand that, you know what throughout that unit
Speaker 3: you're hunting in, there has been a lot of data
Speaker 3: collected by your state wilife agency, and that's why they
Speaker 3: have applied that harvest the level, whether you know it's
Speaker 3: moderate or high or whatever. So don't be arguing that
Speaker 3: that's wrong for that whole unit. Now within the property
Speaker 3: that you hunt on and pay I hunt at the
Speaker 3: property level, and so do you, and so do every
Speaker 3: other hunter from that. There are ways to be able
Speaker 3: to figure out, you know, should I shoot any dose,
Speaker 3: should it be one, should it be multiple? And there's
Speaker 3: some scientific information that I can give you. The easiest
Speaker 3: thing mark is actually on our website, we have a
Speaker 3: dough harvest diagnosis. It's a page you can look at
Speaker 3: and there's a bunch of questions. You just answer yes
Speaker 3: or no to each and at the end you count
Speaker 3: up the number of yes as the number of nos,
Speaker 3: and it tells you should you be harvested more deer
Speaker 3: in your area or not. So if folks want to
Speaker 3: go do that, that's an easy way to do that.
Speaker 3: But I will tell you, in general, across most of
Speaker 3: the white tails range, a good place to start is
Speaker 3: for hunters to be harvest in at least as many
Speaker 3: ante lists deer as they are bucks on the property
Speaker 3: that they hunt. There's places in New England, there's places
Speaker 3: you know in northern Minnesota, Wisconsin or Nebraska with deer
Speaker 3: herds are you know, not real productive or at least
Speaker 3: not growing quick that you just simply can't harvest as
Speaker 3: many dos there. But that is not true for most
Speaker 3: of the white tails range. Almost all the white tails range,
Speaker 3: we need to be harvest in at least as many
Speaker 3: antalysts deer, and in most cases more antalyst deer than bucks.
Speaker 3: Everybody can apply that right to your property level. If
Speaker 3: you're a hunt at your in Michigan camp, you know,
Speaker 3: when we shot five bucks this year, I will issue
Speaker 3: you should have been shooting more than five dos, and
Speaker 3: in many cases probably at least twice that many. My
Speaker 3: my hunting camp in northern Pennsylvania, our twenty year average
Speaker 3: is we shoot between three and four ant list deer
Speaker 3: for every antler buck that we shoot. And uh, and
Speaker 3: we have phenomenal hunting. You know, lots of folks say, well, man,
Speaker 3: you know you guys shoot nice bucks. I wish I
Speaker 3: could hunt there. Well, you know, part of the good
Speaker 3: hunting is we work hard on the habitat, and we
Speaker 3: work really hard to shoot enough ante list deer each year,
Speaker 3: so you know those those go together. But that's a
Speaker 3: good place for folks to start. Start by shooting more
Speaker 3: does than bucks.
Speaker 2: Where do we find that dough harvest diagnosis tool you
Speaker 2: mentioned on the website? It does go.
Speaker 3: It is so at Dear Association dot com. There is
Speaker 3: there under I think it's under one of our programs
Speaker 3: or materials available. Gosh, it's been so long since I
Speaker 3: have looked on the side. I know we have it there,
Speaker 3: but it's on our site. It's a one page pdf
Speaker 3: that folks can grab. I've been to make it easy.
Speaker 3: Mark when I can do we get done here. I
Speaker 3: can send you there or email that to you if
Speaker 3: you want to include a link to it in the show.
Speaker 2: Notes or something. But yeah, we'll have a link.
Speaker 3: I'll make it available because that's a super easy way.
Speaker 3: If somebody says, hey, you know what I actually collect data?
Speaker 3: I do camera surveys or I scout a lot. A
Speaker 3: good rule of thumb is, if you want to stabilize
Speaker 3: a deer herd, shoot twenty to thirty percent of the
Speaker 3: dose each year, which means if you shoot fewer than
Speaker 3: twenty to thirty percent, that deer herd is likely going
Speaker 3: to grow. If you want to reduce the deer herd,
Speaker 3: shoot more than twenty to thirty percent of the dose.
Speaker 3: So you know, say you do a camera survey and hey,
Speaker 3: I got ten dos using my property. If you shoot
Speaker 3: two or three, you probably keep that deer herd right there.
Speaker 3: If you shoot you know, four to five us a
Speaker 3: chance show you're going to reduce it. So that's a
Speaker 3: good rule of thumb as well. And that's what I
Speaker 3: have used. We do summer camera surveys on our Pennsylvania farm.
Speaker 3: I have every year for over twenty years. That is
Speaker 3: exactly what I do to estimate, Hey, here's probably how
Speaker 3: many different bucks are using our farm during the year,
Speaker 3: and then this is how many doughs we're going to shoot.
Speaker 3: We go into every deer season with a plan and
Speaker 3: I tell all the guys hount in our land, you know,
Speaker 3: we're going to shoot you know, eight to ten dos
Speaker 3: this year. We're going to shoot you know, eighteen to
Speaker 3: twenty dos this year. So that comes from that camera survey.
Speaker 3: Not everybody can do that, So that's why we also
Speaker 3: developed that dough harvest diagnosis sheet I mentioned, So you
Speaker 3: just go through it and answer yes or no, and
Speaker 3: then come up with with what your strategy should be.
Speaker 2: Terrific And like you said, for probably three quarters of
Speaker 2: the nation, the answer is an obvious yes. Definitely for
Speaker 2: anyone in the bottom two thirds of my home state.
Speaker 2: Here in Michigan, I think you'd be hard pressed to
Speaker 2: find anywhere in this state other than the far northern
Speaker 2: reaches where there's just not a pile of deer in
Speaker 2: most areas that need this kind of action. But despite
Speaker 2: that fact, people my you know, I have friends and
Speaker 2: folks that I know who had the same questions, concerns,
Speaker 2: or excuses for not shooting. Does beyond just well there's
Speaker 2: not enough. So you wrote an article recently for the
Speaker 2: NBA's website that covered some of these. I wanted to
Speaker 2: talk through a few with you, and one of them
Speaker 2: is something I've heard from people, which is, well, my
Speaker 2: state has such a crazy high bag limit. You know
Speaker 2: they they't like in Michigan. I think you can buy
Speaker 2: ten dough tags. They're trying to shoot every day deer
Speaker 2: out there. All these deer must be getting killed. There's
Speaker 2: no way I should shoot a bunch of them because
Speaker 2: everybody else is, or you know that I've been hearing
Speaker 2: there's depredation tags being given out. I've heard of some
Speaker 2: farmers shooting fifty deer every year over here. I better
Speaker 2: not do it myself. Can you speak to that one
Speaker 2: a little bit?
Speaker 3: Sure? And you know when I get it, You know,
Speaker 3: I'm the same way if I'm hearing what's going on
Speaker 3: in my town or down at the you know, the
Speaker 3: local bar or local coffee shop. You know, yeah, I
Speaker 3: heard Mark shot three and he had people over his
Speaker 3: private shot ten, and that story gets shared. Suddenly you
Speaker 3: wonder why there's any deer left in your in your
Speaker 3: whole township, the other gone. The reality of it is,
Speaker 3: that's not true. The reality of it is, we monitor
Speaker 3: harvest success rates from every state in the country annually,
Speaker 3: and you know, less than half of the hunters that
Speaker 3: go afield any year shoot a single deer, and about
Speaker 3: half of those that do shoot bucks. You know, if
Speaker 3: you're only going to shoot one deer, many people prefer
Speaker 3: a buck, so most won't shoot any A good percentage
Speaker 3: shoot a bux, which means then there's a large percentage
Speaker 3: that don't shoot any dough. So we share some data
Speaker 3: to show, hey, most people don't kill a single dough,
Speaker 3: even though you have the opportunities to kill multiple dose
Speaker 3: you know, all those years. The reality of it is
Speaker 3: most are not. So that's the first thing to let
Speaker 3: we try to share our folks, just to make them
Speaker 3: aware we're not making this up. Here's what the data
Speaker 3: actually says. You don't need to be afraid to shoot
Speaker 3: one because you think they're all gone or that they're
Speaker 3: over harvested. You know, most people just simply aren't shooting
Speaker 3: that at all. So we try to make that available
Speaker 3: because if hunters see that and start to understand that,
Speaker 3: that's the first step to reduce in those barriers that
Speaker 3: maybe we can convince them to pull the trigger on
Speaker 3: a dough.
Speaker 2: All right, here's another one. Well, I don't want to
Speaker 2: shoot a dough in the late season when we're discussing
Speaker 2: this right now, because that dough has already been bred
Speaker 2: by the big giant buck that I hope is running
Speaker 2: around out here, and I don't want to lose that
Speaker 2: future buck. I don't want the genetics from that big
Speaker 2: buck to disappear because I shoot the dough that he bred.
Speaker 2: What about that one.
Speaker 3: I think from that one. I say, you know what,
Speaker 3: You're right, you should have shot that dough back in
Speaker 3: September or October. Then you wouldn't have had to worry
Speaker 3: about it. There's a lot of benefits to early antler
Speaker 3: this harvest, and I would love if we could shoot
Speaker 3: all the dos on us, you know, in October. The
Speaker 3: reality of it is that just doesn't happen. So we
Speaker 3: get into you know, the rut, and then we're postbruck.
Speaker 3: From a biological standpoint, it makes absolutely no difference to
Speaker 3: that deer herd whether you shot that dough early in
Speaker 3: the year or after she had been bred. Think about
Speaker 3: like this. We know that a lot of the bucks
Speaker 3: out there get in and on the breeding, and in fact,
Speaker 3: research shows at about a quarter of all the twin
Speaker 3: fawns we see aren't real twins, they have different fathers.
Speaker 3: So we know that not only are a lot of
Speaker 3: bucks breeding, we know that some does are bred by
Speaker 3: multiple bucks. So between that we know and the other
Speaker 3: research done on actual antler growth and who's siren who,
Speaker 3: But from a hunting standpoint, mark we can't do anything
Speaker 3: to impact antler genetics in the wild. We can absolutely
Speaker 3: impact antler growth by making sure that there's not too
Speaker 3: many deer for anaria, and making sure that bucks are
Speaker 3: getting into older age classes. Those are two things that
Speaker 3: hunters can do every single day. We can do absolutely
Speaker 3: nothing about the actual genetics of what those those faons have,
Speaker 3: you know, from the sires. So from that, if somebody
Speaker 3: is saying, man, I don't want to shoot a dough
Speaker 3: now that's bred from it, maybe have bred by the
Speaker 3: biggest buck, you don't know, that probably was not bred
Speaker 3: by him. And even if he was, you don't that's
Speaker 3: not a guarantee that that faon will have big antlers
Speaker 3: if it is a buck fund. So that doesn't even
Speaker 3: need to come into you know what, the conversation at all.
Speaker 2: So I want to reiterate or have you reiterate something
Speaker 2: you said there for those people listening who are really
Speaker 2: fired up about big giant bucks, they can't influence how
Speaker 2: many big giant bucks they're going to have by shooting
Speaker 2: call bucks. Because we've talked in the past about how
Speaker 2: the as you just said, we can't really influence genetics.
Speaker 2: You can't influence it by making sure that the genetics
Speaker 2: of a certain buck are passed on by not shooting
Speaker 2: a dough. But there was something you did say could
Speaker 2: influence the antlers of future deer, which is making sure
Speaker 2: there's not too many deer in the landscape. Right, that's correct.
Speaker 3: Age is the biggest influence for antler size, just letting
Speaker 3: them get old enough to express what their potential is.
Speaker 3: The next biggest thing is just nutrition, making sure they
Speaker 3: you know what, And I will say this, I've been
Speaker 3: blessed to travel across the country actually and across the
Speaker 3: world to talk about white tails and work with white tails.
Speaker 3: In almost every place I have been, those deer would
Speaker 3: have been benefited from more nutrition, even in Southeast Ive.
Speaker 3: I have been in some of the best whitetail country
Speaker 3: in the world that grows some of the biggest whitetails,
Speaker 3: and in those areas, those bucks could be even bigger
Speaker 3: if there were fewer deer there and they had more food. So,
Speaker 3: as hunters, we do that by enhancing habitat and by
Speaker 3: shooting dos so that we reduce the number of miles
Speaker 3: competing for that good food that we provide.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, moving down the list, how about well,
Speaker 2: I don't want to shoot does right now or at
Speaker 2: any time of year, because I don't want to accidentally
Speaker 2: shoot a button buck, which will then be my future
Speaker 2: booner that I'm working towards and spending all this money
Speaker 2: on improving habitat for and got all my fancy hunting
Speaker 2: gear to shoot. I don't want to shoot my bucks
Speaker 2: by accident. What do you say to someone who's worried
Speaker 2: about that, and how can we prepare? What can we
Speaker 2: do to ensure that doesn't happen?
Speaker 3: I think one tell them, hey, thank you for at
Speaker 3: least considering shooting an analyst deer. Thank you for being
Speaker 3: cognizant enough to understand the difference between buck vah dough
Speaker 3: fonds and adult doughs, you know, and try to do
Speaker 3: a better job from a manager standpoint, and shoot a
Speaker 3: dough as opposed to a future buck, because by passing
Speaker 3: buck fonnds, yes, you can have more bucks on the landscape.
Speaker 3: But also by shooting that adult dough you are doing
Speaker 3: a better job helping manage that deer herd by reducing,
Speaker 3: you know, one of the breeding females. So that is
Speaker 3: all very good. There's nothing wrong with being concerned about that.
Speaker 3: In fact, it shows that you have a little more
Speaker 3: respect for that deer herd and want to do a
Speaker 3: good job as a steward. Now I'll say this, there
Speaker 3: is nothing wrong with shooting fonnds. Absolutely nothing wrong with
Speaker 3: either buck fonnds or dough funds. So you know you
Speaker 3: don't need to feel bad about that. And there's a
Speaker 3: great rule of thumb that shows you know, all of
Speaker 3: your antlers harvest, as long as about ten percent of
Speaker 3: that are buck fawnds, you're totally fine. You're not negatively
Speaker 3: impacting the future of that at all. Now, if fifty
Speaker 3: or sixty percent of your handlers harvest are buck fonnds,
Speaker 3: you are absolutely going to negatively impact what you have.
Speaker 3: But as long long as you keep that total antless
Speaker 3: harvest to about ten percent buck fawns or lower man,
Speaker 3: there is nothing wrong at all. So know that going in. Okay,
Speaker 3: now I see some ant let this, dear, how can
Speaker 3: I do the best job picking out or making sure
Speaker 3: one is a dough and not a fawn. Well, if
Speaker 3: you shoot them earlier in a year, it's easier to
Speaker 3: tell because there's a greater size difference.
Speaker 2: I like that.
Speaker 3: But now, man, those buck falls can be about as
Speaker 3: big as some of the adult does, particularly the one
Speaker 3: and a half year old doze. So with that, there's
Speaker 3: a couple of things we can look at mark from
Speaker 3: a physical standpoint and a behavioral standpoint that will help us.
Speaker 3: So from a physical standpoint, fawns are still a little smaller,
Speaker 3: but if we look at the bodies, like and if
Speaker 3: you're seeing broadside deer an adult dough, if you look
Speaker 3: at the space between her front legs and her back legs,
Speaker 3: it is rectangular. That same area on a fawn is
Speaker 3: more square because they're just not as long as a dough.
Speaker 3: That's why it helps having multiple deer available, because just
Speaker 3: looking at one you can be tricked pretty easily, but
Speaker 3: if you have two there to compare, that makes it
Speaker 3: a lot easier. If we can see their head, the
Speaker 3: distance from a fawn's forehead to its eye is about
Speaker 3: the same as it's eye to its end of its nose,
Speaker 3: so that if you look at then's whole head in profile,
Speaker 3: the eye is about right in the middle. An adult dough,
Speaker 3: the distance from her forehead to her eye are shorter
Speaker 3: than the distance from her eye to her nose. You
Speaker 3: can see that long and I have identified so many
Speaker 3: antlests here as a dough or a fawn based solely
Speaker 3: on looking at that heads from the side. If we
Speaker 3: see them from the front, a fawn's ears appear larger
Speaker 3: relative to its whole head than a doze, so we
Speaker 3: can use that as well. So ears, face, and body.
Speaker 3: There's three things from a physical standpoint that we can
Speaker 3: help differentiate between those two even before we get to
Speaker 3: any of the behavioral stuff. So those are all great
Speaker 3: indicators from a physical or a behavioral standpoint. Then we
Speaker 3: can watch how they interact. Fawns are less wary than adults,
Speaker 3: so they're almost always the first deer that shows up
Speaker 3: at a food source, particularly a food plot or some
Speaker 3: other area that doesn't have much cover. Maybe you're in
Speaker 3: a you know, helping some oak woods and there's a
Speaker 3: big open oak flat. You know, hey, they're often the
Speaker 3: first one's in there as well. So seeing the first
Speaker 3: deer come in, waiting the harvest on that one, you know,
Speaker 3: until another one is present, can help you pick an
Speaker 3: adult dough or Hey, if you want to shoot a fawn,
Speaker 3: you know you can bet that you know what the
Speaker 3: first one in there is a good chance it is
Speaker 3: a fun if you have multiple deer there. Now you
Speaker 3: can watch not only the size, but behaviorally as well,
Speaker 3: who appears to be in charge. Oftentimes adult doughs will
Speaker 3: go over, you know, and it can either smack a
Speaker 3: fond to remove them from an area, or the faun
Speaker 3: will follow the dough and it's very clear kind of
Speaker 3: who's in charge. So we can watch some of that
Speaker 3: behavior as well and do a really good job identifying that.
Speaker 3: And from that, the last thing that we can look
Speaker 3: at is if we see the head shape. Even without antlers,
Speaker 3: bucks have a very flat head, So whether a buck
Speaker 3: that has shed its antlers or a buck fawnd, it's
Speaker 3: very flat between the ears. Dose have rounded heads, so
Speaker 3: it's really really easy to tell that when they're in
Speaker 3: summer coat. It becomes a little more difficult in winter coat.
Speaker 3: But if we study and we can still see that.
Speaker 3: So that's a great way to differentiate buck fawns from
Speaker 3: dough faunds, buck fawns from adult does, or even bucks
Speaker 3: that have shed their antlers from adult does. So with
Speaker 3: a little bit of study, and I will say this,
Speaker 3: it makes that way easier if we have some good optics.
Speaker 3: So you know, don't go hunting without your binoculars. You know,
Speaker 3: I never leave home without my vortex binoculars, and I
Speaker 3: spend more time in them than I do my scope,
Speaker 3: and I confirm what's going on there before I go
Speaker 3: to my scope. So good optics really help. Not shooting
Speaker 3: in real low light situations can help, or waiting until
Speaker 3: there's better light can certainly help that as well. So,
Speaker 3: you know, there's things that we can look at on
Speaker 3: the deer, there's things we can observe from deer, and
Speaker 3: there's some things we can do from a hunting end
Speaker 3: as well to all, you know, improve the chances that
Speaker 3: we're shooting adult dose and not buck faonnds or any
Speaker 3: fond or even shed bucks.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So on that shed buck topic, that's another one
Speaker 2: that people are worried about. So the obvious thing, as
Speaker 2: you described there, was to make sure to check out
Speaker 2: that head with your buy no's and carefully study the forehead,
Speaker 2: but from the body perspective or anything else when it
Speaker 2: comes to determining or differentiating a mature dough from a
Speaker 2: shed buck, are there any other things you would recommend
Speaker 2: looking for?
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that is a legitimate concern as well. And
Speaker 3: I'm very cognizant when I'm hunting in late December or
Speaker 3: January of watching an antlyst deer to make sure it's
Speaker 3: not a shed buck. So one, I am making sure
Speaker 3: that I use my optics like we just discussed. Two,
Speaker 3: I am watching structurally on that deer bucks at that
Speaker 3: time of the year. For most of the white tails range.
Speaker 3: You know, my buddy's down in Alabama and Louisiana and
Speaker 3: the place is at rut really late. This is a
Speaker 3: little different for them, but for most of the ear
Speaker 3: else of the country. You know where our buck's rout
Speaker 3: in early to mid November, late season, once they have shed. Structurally,
Speaker 3: looking at them, they are off and just thin looking.
Speaker 3: They are rectangular between the front legs and back legs
Speaker 3: like the dose we talked about. But they tend to
Speaker 3: be slim because you know, they just don't eat much
Speaker 3: during the rut, and there's a lot of data the
Speaker 3: shows you know, they'll lose twenty to twenty five percent
Speaker 3: of their body weight during the rut, so they can
Speaker 3: get pretty slim. That's why a food sources. You know,
Speaker 3: they're trying to eat all they can to put on
Speaker 3: anything possible, you know, before we get into the full winter.
Speaker 3: So looking at them, if you're looking at a deer
Speaker 3: late seas I clearly see it's an adult. Can't really
Speaker 3: see the head good, but just looking at the body,
Speaker 3: if that body looks pretty round or pretty fit, it's
Speaker 3: probably a dough. It's probably not a buck that's gone
Speaker 3: through the riggers of the rut. Conversely, if you look
Speaker 3: at it and go, now, that looks a little slim,
Speaker 3: there's a better and an average chance show that that
Speaker 3: can be a buck or it's a dough that's just
Speaker 3: really nutritionally deprived. But that's something that I use Behaviorally.
Speaker 3: Those bucks still act a little different from the does.
Speaker 3: You know, once they lose their ramtlers, they know they
Speaker 3: don't have them anymore, so they're not as apt to
Speaker 3: you know, fight another buck. But they still often act
Speaker 3: to be a little bit in charge, you know, over
Speaker 3: the does. So if you see a bunch of deer,
Speaker 3: particularly in you know, say a food plot or maybe
Speaker 3: you have corn and you watch a deer come in,
Speaker 3: that just seems to look like attitude is a little
Speaker 3: more in charge or just kind of in many cases
Speaker 3: that is a buck that shed their antlers. You know,
Speaker 3: they don't often lose that whole attitude, you know, when
Speaker 3: the antlers are going on, So just behaviorally there some
Speaker 3: you can as well, But if I'm hunting in I
Speaker 3: am just really really studying is that head flat or not,
Speaker 3: and trying to pick up on those other cues, because
Speaker 3: you know, man, a buck that makes it through, you know,
Speaker 3: into late season, if he has shed his antlers from whatever,
Speaker 3: you know what, I don't want to be shooting him either.
Speaker 3: I want to make sure I'm putting my tag on
Speaker 3: a dough, so I take extra care and I'm extra
Speaker 3: cautious that time of the year.
Speaker 2: Is tarsal gland stain something that can reliably help you
Speaker 2: differentiate it all at that point in the year.
Speaker 3: That's a great point. Sometimes. Yes, bucks and doze will
Speaker 3: rub urine eight year round. They will do that. They
Speaker 3: just tend to do it a lot more during the
Speaker 3: rut and bucks tend to do it more during the
Speaker 3: rut than dose. So once they're they're testosteron levels start
Speaker 3: drop in and they're out of the ruck, they're not
Speaker 3: rub urinating as much, but you still will see that
Speaker 3: dark tarsal staining on bucks, and particularly older bucks that
Speaker 3: have rub urinated a lot. It hangs around there a
Speaker 3: lot longer than it does and does. So it's not
Speaker 3: an absolute telltale sign every single time, but that's a
Speaker 3: great suggestion mark and one thing that you can use,
Speaker 3: you know, as one more clue to Hey, is that
Speaker 3: likely a buck or is that more likely a dough?
Speaker 3: So yeah, that's a really good tip.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay. So another question, and this one isn't whether
Speaker 2: this isn't so much a should you hunt dose or not?
Speaker 2: This is a Okay, I've decided I'm going to start hunting.
Speaker 2: Does one of the other questions that you get is Okay,
Speaker 2: which dough is the best to shoot? Because a whole
Speaker 2: pile of them just came out into the cornfield er
Speaker 2: just came out in front of me in the clearing,
Speaker 2: and I've got a whole bunch of different ones. I
Speaker 2: see some big ones, I see some little ones. I
Speaker 2: see one with two fawns, I see one all by itself.
Speaker 2: What is the best dough to shoot? If I want
Speaker 2: to try to make an impact on the herd as
Speaker 2: we are discussing, if I want to help manage the
Speaker 2: dough herd to bring down that population or at least
Speaker 2: stabilize it, what dough should I be shooting?
Speaker 3: The older does tend to be better mothers. So if
Speaker 3: you're they tend to recruit more fonds. So if you're
Speaker 3: looking at reducing the deer herd, shooting an older dough
Speaker 3: can help the most. However, we can't estimate age of
Speaker 3: dose on the hoof like we can bucks, so that's
Speaker 3: a very very difficult thing to do. So what I
Speaker 3: tell people to do is and this is exactly the
Speaker 3: advice that I follow. If I am looking at a
Speaker 3: group of deer and I've identified, you know they're all does,
Speaker 3: or there's doze and fawns, or you know, all the
Speaker 3: deer at least all the adults there are dose, I
Speaker 3: am picking the biggest one out. I am shooting the
Speaker 3: biggest dough in the group. That is more likely to
Speaker 3: be a dough as opposed to a fawn. It's going
Speaker 3: to harvest deer from across the wide range of ages.
Speaker 3: The biggest deer there is not necessarily the oldest. I
Speaker 3: have seen two year old dough win big dough contest.
Speaker 3: I'll see in three year old dough, four year old dough,
Speaker 3: five year old dough. Kind Of like humans, some of
Speaker 3: us tend to get a lot bigger than others. Some
Speaker 3: just don't grow as big, so by harvest and the
Speaker 3: biggest dough in the group, you're going to get the
Speaker 3: most meat for the freezer, which is good, minimize the
Speaker 3: chance of harvesting a fawn, and then you're going to
Speaker 3: then also help harvest deer from across the whole range
Speaker 3: of age classes, which is really good for the deer hurt.
Speaker 3: Maybe as an individual landowner that's not important, but overall
Speaker 3: that's very good. So that's my advice. And if the
Speaker 3: biggest deer there was guaranteed to be the oldest, that's great.
Speaker 3: But since we can't figure out which is the oldest,
Speaker 3: sometimes behaviorally you can watch interactions in the more dominant
Speaker 3: one tends to be the older one. But a very
Speaker 3: easy piece of advice that I think across the board
Speaker 3: works really well is pick the biggest one out so
Speaker 3: that you can put the most meat in your freezer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've read recently about study came out somewhat recently
Speaker 2: about the possibility of there being super does being does
Speaker 2: that are disproportionately impacting the population? Is that something you
Speaker 2: can elaborate on at all? Have you have you seen that?
Speaker 3: I haven't seen that. I'm guessing they're probably talking about
Speaker 3: ones that are recruiting more fonds maybe or just tend
Speaker 3: to be better mothers, you know, because they would have
Speaker 3: larger impacts, you know, on the on the deer herd.
Speaker 3: So there's no doubt some do a better job recruiting fonds.
Speaker 3: All of them, ninety nine percent of them are going
Speaker 3: to be bred. Most of them will then be able
Speaker 3: to deliver fonds. Some just are do a better job
Speaker 3: recruiting them, and recruiting means they keep that phone alive
Speaker 3: till they're six months of age and they get into
Speaker 3: the fall deer herd. The most dominant does get the
Speaker 3: best fawning areas. Oftentimes, the best fawning areas are the
Speaker 3: ones that they are able to recruit the most fonds
Speaker 3: from because it's where they can hide best from predators.
Speaker 3: It's where you have the best food available to the
Speaker 3: mother to feed that fond. So some of that mark
Speaker 3: is that they just have qualities that make them better
Speaker 3: at protecting fonds. Some of it is they're just the
Speaker 3: dominant dough in an area, solid they have all of
Speaker 3: the things stacked in their favor to be able to
Speaker 3: actually recruit those fonds, you know, and nutrition is a
Speaker 3: big thing there. If you take a phone, I mean
Speaker 3: a dough on an area, the dominant dough, big healthy dough.
Speaker 3: Take the quality of the milk that she's feeding her fon.
Speaker 3: The quality of that is exactly the same as the
Speaker 3: most nutritionally deprived dough on that area. One is not
Speaker 3: better than the other. The difference is that dough that
Speaker 3: has a bunch of food produces way more milk for
Speaker 3: her fond So that fon will grow much faster because
Speaker 3: they have a lot more resources, They grow faster, they
Speaker 3: grow quicker than others. They are faster at an earlier
Speaker 3: age than others, so they're better able to avoid predators,
Speaker 3: and they tend to be bigger in the fall. So
Speaker 3: that's why it's important for us to make sure that
Speaker 3: we don't have too many miles on the landscape, because
Speaker 3: then dose can actually raise more fawns. Every other fawn
Speaker 3: on average is a buck fawn because they're born at
Speaker 3: about a fifty to fifty ratio. So for people to
Speaker 3: say I want the most bucks, I say, you know,
Speaker 3: God bless you, I do too. I like to see
Speaker 3: bucks and that keeps people hunting. Do that by shooting
Speaker 3: enough does so the dos are as healthy as popular.
Speaker 3: That's when they can recruit the most fawnds. That's how
Speaker 3: you recruit the most bucks on the landscape. So, man,
Speaker 3: when we do things right, it all works out good
Speaker 3: to benefit us. And I believe the hunters want to
Speaker 3: do things right, So sharing information like that with them
Speaker 3: can help convince them of the need and the benefit
Speaker 3: of shooting a dough.
Speaker 2: Now, speaking of fauns, a lot of people have worries
Speaker 2: or questions about shooting a dough with fauns. So we're
Speaker 2: sitting there in the tree stand and a mature looking
Speaker 2: dough and two fawns step out into the open in
Speaker 2: front of you. What are your thoughts for someone who
Speaker 2: is faced with the shoot or don't shoot question at
Speaker 2: that point, because some people have worries about.
Speaker 3: That, Absolutely, no great question. Most of our fauns in
Speaker 3: the northern half of the US anyway, where where deer
Speaker 3: are writing in November. Most of the phones are born
Speaker 3: in May and June. That means they are wienable by
Speaker 3: mid to late August. By ten weeks of age, they're wienable.
Speaker 3: They could live on their own. Now, we don't have
Speaker 3: deer seasons in August, partly because of that, by the
Speaker 3: time our deer seasons start, those fawns are totally fine
Speaker 3: to make it on their own if they have been orphaned.
Speaker 3: So what I tell people is there is no biological
Speaker 3: concern of harvesting that dough. Those fawns will survive, or
Speaker 3: at least there's a good chance that they're going to survive.
Speaker 3: The only time I would be hesitant is if those
Speaker 3: fawns still have spots. If it's a spotted fawn, man,
Speaker 3: there's a lot of benefit to leaving that mother with
Speaker 3: him for a longer period of time. Now, obviously that
Speaker 3: dough will continue to help them avoid predators in that,
Speaker 3: you know, but we don't need to worry about most
Speaker 3: of that for the most part. If the fawn is spotted,
Speaker 3: don't shoot that dough. Give it fawn more time with it.
Speaker 3: But if you're into deer season, that fawn, you know,
Speaker 3: is not spotted, It is eating vegetation, it is going
Speaker 3: to group up with other deer anyway, there is no
Speaker 3: biological concern with shooting the mother. Now, if it just
Speaker 3: makes you queezing and say I just don't want to
Speaker 3: do that, I understand that, go ahead and shoot a
Speaker 3: different do but understand, there is nothing wrong with you
Speaker 3: or somebody else shooting that dough that has fawns with her.
Speaker 3: It's not even guaranteed they're both her fawns because fawns
Speaker 3: grouped together. And there's some research out of Pennsylvania where
Speaker 3: they trapped deer and did DNA work and in many
Speaker 3: cases the fawn or fawns that walk in with that dough,
Speaker 3: they weren't hers. They weren't even related to her, you know,
Speaker 3: maybe they lost their mother so they just grouped up
Speaker 3: with her. So it's not a guarantee that you're shooting,
Speaker 3: you know, their mother. It's just a dough in that area.
Speaker 3: So nothing wrong at all with with with harvesting that
Speaker 3: adult dough.
Speaker 2: All right, So I'm convinced I need to do more
Speaker 2: to manage the antler list deer population in my area.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go out there and shoot doze. But I've
Speaker 2: listened to seventy two podcasts from Wired to Hunt about
Speaker 2: how to kill big mature bucks. Nobody ever tells me
Speaker 2: how to kill big old doe. Can I get Kip
Speaker 2: Adam's top three tips for killing a dough in the
Speaker 2: late season, since that's what we're talking.
Speaker 3: Sure, I'm hopeing a bunch of folks have shot them early.
Speaker 3: If you haven't, it's not too late. We still have
Speaker 3: season so one. Once this run is over, you know,
Speaker 3: doze now are looking also to get as much food
Speaker 3: as they can getting into winter, so food sources are
Speaker 3: an awesome time in the rut, those doughs are often
Speaker 3: and heavy cover just trying to stop from being harassed
Speaker 3: by bucks. So you know, hunting really heavy cover is
Speaker 3: often advantageous. That's where we want to be in many
Speaker 3: cases to catch those cruising bucks as well. But the
Speaker 3: rud is pretty much over, winter is getting you know,
Speaker 3: setting in dose. Need to feed as much as possible,
Speaker 3: so food sources are perfect. If you have anything left
Speaker 3: in food plots, if you have opportunity to hunt agricultural fields,
Speaker 3: if you have an opportunity to hunt mask crops, if
Speaker 3: you're in an all wooded area, find the mast, you know,
Speaker 3: if there's any acorns left, any beech nuts left, they
Speaker 3: want that. If not, find areas in wooded areas where
Speaker 3: or wooded situations do you know that have a bunch
Speaker 3: of young seedlings. They need those buds, so they're going
Speaker 3: to do as much as possible to maximize calories that
Speaker 3: they can take in. So I'm hunting food sources like
Speaker 3: crazy late season. That is where we stand the best
Speaker 3: chance to cross paths with a dough beautiful.
Speaker 2: Have you ever tried any outside the box tactics to
Speaker 2: fill a dough tag? Do you ever call? Do you
Speaker 2: ever decoy? Do you ever I don't know, slip around,
Speaker 2: spot and stock, anything that's a little outside of the norm.
Speaker 2: Is there anything like that worth considering?
Speaker 3: I No, I don't know that I've ever called in
Speaker 3: a dough in late season. I often continue to call
Speaker 3: while I'm hunting. I was running this past Friday night
Speaker 3: when I was sitting with my nephew in Pennsylvania. Our
Speaker 3: run is mostly over, but hey, there's still some dose
Speaker 3: or some bucks that are interested in that. So I
Speaker 3: think it's fine to call anytime. Deer communicated a much
Speaker 3: higher level through you know, sounds than many hunters realize.
Speaker 3: So I have never called in a dough late season.
Speaker 3: I don't know that that's one of, you know, the
Speaker 3: most likely things to call in, but I wouldn't be
Speaker 3: afraid to try it, you know, just because of the
Speaker 3: amount of time that they do communicate. I think spot
Speaker 3: and stock is totally fine. So I would be very
Speaker 3: careful because this time of the year in much of
Speaker 3: the white tails range, it gets loud to try to
Speaker 3: sneak around. It's either you know, krusty snow or we
Speaker 3: have ice or whatever. So I would be very careful
Speaker 3: along those lines. But I wouldn't rule that out. I'm
Speaker 3: thinking food first, and whatever I can do to get
Speaker 3: myself in a position to catch one on food or
Speaker 3: you know, or move into food as what I would do.
Speaker 3: I would not be afraid at all. And actually I
Speaker 3: would encourage people to set up outside that are different
Speaker 3: stands that you have hunted most of the season in.
Speaker 3: You've probably spooked some deer from those stands though, are
Speaker 3: aware of where they had been, you know, chased, So
Speaker 3: get into other areas. Maybe try take a saddle, you know,
Speaker 3: and hunt out of a saddle in a place you
Speaker 3: haven't hunted from this year. Maybe even just get out
Speaker 3: and stand by a tree or sit in an area.
Speaker 3: Maybe you can't hunt as long as we would have earlier,
Speaker 3: so you know, maximize later in the morning catching deer
Speaker 3: leaving food or just before an evening, you know, but
Speaker 3: try spots that you haven't spooked deer from during the
Speaker 3: course of the year, and you know, hit them from
Speaker 3: a new area like that can can be a great suggestion.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, one of my favorite things to do
Speaker 2: in the late season part of the year, when I'm
Speaker 2: focused just on dos is I will take the anything
Speaker 2: is better than nothing approach. So i might not be
Speaker 2: able to get out for a full morning hunt or
Speaker 2: a full evening hunt, but I've got from eight thirty
Speaker 2: to nine thirty in the morning after breakfast that could
Speaker 2: just slip out maybe. So we've got these late firearm
Speaker 2: seasons across many states these days for analyst deer. So
Speaker 2: I might say, well, I'll have breakfast of the family
Speaker 2: and then I'm going to go out for just an
Speaker 2: hour with the gun, and I'm gonna go walk the
Speaker 2: edges of some fields. And oftentimes that's not going to
Speaker 2: work when you're trying to hunt for one specific mature
Speaker 2: buck or something. But if you're trying to shoot any
Speaker 2: antelust deer, you might happen to catch that dough that's
Speaker 2: still feeding just before stepping into the woods on the
Speaker 2: edge of the bean field, or you might actually catch
Speaker 2: one when you glass over the hilltop and see that
Speaker 2: there's one just inside of the cover about to bed down,
Speaker 2: and you can sneak within one hundred yards or whatever.
Speaker 2: I found those little kind of get it in while
Speaker 2: you can kind of opportunities that are outside of the
Speaker 2: box end up sometimes being possible when you're targeting antlers
Speaker 2: deer and are really fun and when you're trying to
Speaker 2: do whatever you can to fill an antlyst tag and
Speaker 2: do your management responsibility. It's a great way to make
Speaker 2: it happen when you maybe don't have all the time
Speaker 2: in the world, or you're trying to fit it in
Speaker 2: between different things. Those types of things are possible when
Speaker 2: it's this kind of hunt.
Speaker 3: I agree. And you know the nice thing is is
Speaker 3: once deer seasons are done and hunters have left the woods,
Speaker 3: you know, after a few days or a week, you know,
Speaker 3: deer often start resuming some normal movement patterns anyway, So
Speaker 3: it's a great opportunity for that, you know where that
Speaker 3: may not have happened at the end of your rifle season,
Speaker 3: but you know, hey, it can happen now. Another benefit
Speaker 3: of that is, man, you have a perfect opportunity to.
Speaker 4: Do some postseason or at least Yeah, it's not postseason,
Speaker 4: but late scouting to see where deer are moving, you know,
Speaker 4: once all the hunters will leave, and so yeah, you know,
Speaker 4: I think that you get some information to help you
Speaker 4: next year, as well as provide an opportunity to shoot
Speaker 4: an antlerus deer late.
Speaker 3: Yeah, or maybe even a buck late if you still
Speaker 3: have your buck tag. Maybe you've already shot some antlous
Speaker 3: deer and you're trying to add another one or still
Speaker 3: can fill your buck teck.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a great time to try something new,
Speaker 2: that's for sure. What about the situation where somebody says, well,
Speaker 2: you know, I already killed a buck this year, and
Speaker 2: my I only need one deer worth of meat in
Speaker 2: the freezer. Or maybe they kill two deer and they
Speaker 2: don't need to they don't need any more meat. So
Speaker 2: this person who has a full freezer and they're saying, well, yeah,
Speaker 2: I would do this, I would shoot some does, but
Speaker 2: I just I don't need to. I don't need to
Speaker 2: eat it. What do you say to that person.
Speaker 3: I think there's a bunch of folks that fall in
Speaker 3: that category, And I say, you know what, we have
Speaker 3: a perfect opportunity to help feed others today in the
Speaker 3: us about one in seven households or food insecure, you know,
Speaker 3: I mean, and they don't have enough meat. This is
Speaker 3: a perfect way for a hunter to shoot a dough
Speaker 3: which helps that deer herd, and then donate that to
Speaker 3: a needy family. Maybe it's a somebody down the street,
Speaker 3: maybe it's a friend or family member, can take it
Speaker 3: to a soup kitchen. There are many venison donation processors
Speaker 3: across the country that can take that and get it
Speaker 3: into the food bank hands, and so that that is
Speaker 3: a great thing that makes the hunters look like a
Speaker 3: champion of society.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: Society loves it that we're solving this antlust deer under
Speaker 3: harvest problem at the same time feeding people. You know,
Speaker 3: and I get it, Mark, there's a there's a bottleneck
Speaker 3: today with fewer processors than there used to be. I
Speaker 3: see it in my state of Pennsylvania. I know it's
Speaker 3: in your state of Michigan and elsewhere. We have met
Speaker 3: with a lot of state wildlife agencies about this issue
Speaker 3: and where are trying to develop a national map of
Speaker 3: where venison processors are located. Pennsylvania is done, so we
Speaker 3: started in my home state of Pa. We have that
Speaker 3: map now and are starting to add other states to
Speaker 3: provide a resource for hunters. Hey, here's a place you
Speaker 3: can take a deer to have it, you know, processed.
Speaker 3: We have on those listed on there. Hey, these ones
Speaker 3: are involved with venison donation program, so it doesn't cost
Speaker 3: you anything to leave that. So I think this is
Speaker 3: going to be a tremendous resource for hunters because a
Speaker 3: lot just don't know where to go, you know, particularly
Speaker 3: we lose more venison processors. So we actually are working
Speaker 3: on trying to get some federal funding to increase the
Speaker 3: number of processors that are available to hunters, but then
Speaker 3: simultaneously making the current ones that are available, put it
Speaker 3: on a map to make at a resource for hunters
Speaker 3: to see where they are. So if you, even if
Speaker 3: you're Freezer's full, I promise you there's somebody in your
Speaker 3: community that can use it. Get with an NDA branch
Speaker 3: in your area. We can help find a home for
Speaker 3: or your state Wildlife agency or your state venison donation program.
Speaker 3: Somebody needs that, it needs it desperately, and as a
Speaker 3: hunter man you can you can be the winner and
Speaker 3: provide that for Yeah.
Speaker 2: So whether it be to get some information as you
Speaker 2: just described regarding processors, or finding that deer diagnosis, the
Speaker 2: dough harvest diagnosis one sheeter you mentioned, or connecting with
Speaker 2: an NDA branch, or becoming a member. All of these
Speaker 2: things I know are over on the Deer the National
Speaker 2: Deer Association's website. Can you tell folks where to find that,
Speaker 2: how to get involved anything else you want to leave folks, let's.
Speaker 3: Say, sure, you can go to Dearassociation dot com. We
Speaker 3: provide all kinds of information there for for hunters. You know,
Speaker 3: research information, hunting information, recipes, you know, the dough diagnosis,
Speaker 3: harvest and all kinds of other stuff. You know that
Speaker 3: that's all there for the take, and we encourage folks
Speaker 3: to grab it. Sign up to be a member. There's
Speaker 3: there are different levels of membership. Our paid membership provides
Speaker 3: all kinds of discounts to some awesome hunting industry items.
Speaker 3: If you don't want to be a paid member, we
Speaker 3: have a free membership as well, which gets you our
Speaker 3: weekly newsletter to keep you up to date with all
Speaker 3: kinds of good information. So there's lots of ways to
Speaker 3: be able to get involved and uh, you know, if
Speaker 3: if you want to do something positive for the future
Speaker 3: of our deer herds or our hunting heritage. Man being
Speaker 3: being a National Dear Association member is the perfect place
Speaker 3: to start.
Speaker 2: Terrific Kip. As always, I really appreciate your time. Thanks
Speaker 2: for chatting all right, good to see you.
Speaker 3: My friend's great day.
Speaker 2: All right, and that's gonna do it for us. Thank
Speaker 2: you for joining us, Thanks for being here. Hope you
Speaker 2: had a very merry Christmas. Happy holiday, is a wonderful
Speaker 2: time with your friends and family. Best to luck out
Speaker 2: there in the woods. Good luck filling some more dough tags.
Speaker 2: Let's keep the keep that momentum moving. Let's get some
Speaker 2: dos on the ground. Let's fill the freezers. Share it
Speaker 2: with folks, make a positive difference for the environment. Keep
Speaker 2: our ability to manage deer within the world of deer hunters,
Speaker 2: rather than having some other entity. You have to do it.
Speaker 2: We can control the situation, We can influence this situation.
Speaker 2: We know the solution. We just got to get out
Speaker 2: there and do it. So here's to having a great
Speaker 2: antalyst season and until next time, stay wired to hunt.