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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to

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Speaker 1: the White Tail Woods presented by First Light, creating proven

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Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First

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Speaker 1: Light Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on

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Speaker 2: the show, I'm joined by Kip Adams of the National

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Speaker 2: Deer Association to discuss what very well might be the

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Speaker 2: most important action you can take this hunting season, filling

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Speaker 2: a doteg all right, welcome back to the Wired to

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Speaker 2: Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light and their

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Speaker 2: Cameo for Conservation initiative, And as we are wrapping up

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Speaker 2: the year, we need to talk about a very important issue,

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Speaker 2: something that is important for your future deer hunting. The

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Speaker 2: habitat where you deer hunt, the odds of seeing a

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Speaker 2: killing mature bucks in the future, the future of deer

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Speaker 2: hunting as a privilege that we can participate in the future,

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Speaker 2: of our ability to effectively manage deer populations here in

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Speaker 2: America as hunters, rather than having some other group of

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Speaker 2: folks or service manage deer. That's how important our conversation

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Speaker 2: is today because we are discussing antlerlus's deer harvest. Why

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Speaker 2: it's becoming something that is increasingly of concern for folks

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Speaker 2: within the deer hunting and conservation world. Why we are

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Speaker 2: seeing deer harvest and antlerlass harvest in particular declining so

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Speaker 2: substantially across many parts of the country. Why that's a risk,

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Speaker 2: Why that's a problem, Why that could lead to worse

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Speaker 2: deer hunting opportunities for you, and all those other things

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Speaker 2: I mentioned. All of this we discuss with my guest today,

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Speaker 2: mister Kip Adams, the top dog when it comes to conservation.

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Speaker 2: Chief Conservation Officer I believe is his title at the

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Speaker 2: Nation Deer Association, and he's going to detail for us

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Speaker 2: all these things, explain why for almost all of us

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Speaker 2: in the United States of America, other than a few

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Speaker 2: areas of the northern reaches of the country where there

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Speaker 2: are some lower deer populations, but most of the country

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Speaker 2: we have a very very healthy deer population, if not

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Speaker 2: too healthy, too many deer that are impacting the health

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Speaker 2: of the deer herd, impacting the health of the habitat,

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Speaker 2: and impacting all of the things. So that's the game

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Speaker 2: plan today, discussing why all that's of concern, Why that's

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Speaker 2: a problem, and then how we can do something about it,

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Speaker 2: discussing everything from you know, how to determine whether or

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Speaker 2: not all of this applies to you and your property.

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Speaker 2: That's a key thing. Which kinds of places do need

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Speaker 2: increased dough harvest? Which places don't. I want to make

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Speaker 2: sure you can answer that question effectively. Number two, which

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Speaker 2: dose should you be shooting the mature dough the young dough?

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Speaker 2: How do you determine if it's a buck, fawn or

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Speaker 2: a mature dough? How do you make sure that this

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Speaker 2: is not a shed buck and it is a dough.

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Speaker 2: All of these different questions we cover, as well as

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Speaker 2: many others, and then finally we talk through some techniques,

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Speaker 2: some strategies, from ideas for how you can fill those

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Speaker 2: ante list tags. So we're gonna talk why, we're gonna talk, how,

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Speaker 2: we're gonna talk when, and hopefully gets you all up

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Speaker 2: to speed on what you can do to make a

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Speaker 2: positive difference as a deer hunter and also sharing the meat,

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Speaker 2: sharing this other folks who might be in need as well.

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Speaker 2: That is the plan. This is how we're gonna wrap

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Speaker 2: up the year. It's going to be an important episode.

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Speaker 2: If you have a week left of the season, two

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Speaker 2: weeks left of the season. I know some of you

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Speaker 2: guys have more whatever it is, Please if this applies

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Speaker 2: to you in your area, if you live in one

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Speaker 2: of those places where you have those growing deer populations

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Speaker 2: where not enough doughs are getting killed, please join me

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Speaker 2: in participating in filling another dough tag or two. I

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Speaker 2: know that I have goals of getting five plus more.

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Speaker 2: We have an extended dough season this year in Michigan,

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Speaker 2: so our season is going to go into mid January.

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Speaker 2: It is, and I'm gonna be participating right on through

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Speaker 2: the gory end of it. Hopefully gonna put some more

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Speaker 2: meat in the freezer, share some with some family and friends,

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Speaker 2: and have a really good time on the way. So

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Speaker 2: that's the plan. Without any further ado, here's my chat

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Speaker 2: with Kip Adams. All right here with me back on

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Speaker 2: the line is Kip Adams. Thank you Kip for being here.

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Speaker 3: Again, absolutely Mark, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: I always enjoy our chats. I always appreciate you making

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Speaker 2: the time to do this, and today we are here

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Speaker 2: with I think what's fair to say is an urgent

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Speaker 2: call to action for anyone listening and I'm titling this episode.

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Speaker 2: I think by saying something, by titling it as maybe

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Speaker 2: the most important action you can take this hunting season.

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Speaker 2: Something like that, Kip, And I'm curious, from your perspective,

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Speaker 2: is killing an ant list deer filling an antlyst deer tag?

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Speaker 2: Would that qualify as one of the most important actions

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Speaker 2: a deer hunter can take this season in your mind.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, And there are certainly places across the white Tails

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Speaker 3: range where deer herd, you know, we're very low and

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Speaker 3: antelyst harvest is you know, a light harvest is appropriate,

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Speaker 3: but those places are few and far between. Most places

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Speaker 3: where we have white tails because of the reproductive rate is

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Speaker 3: so high, it just necessitates that hunters fill more ant

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Speaker 3: list tags. Then we've been filling across much of the

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Speaker 3: range over most of the past decade. So yeah, I

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Speaker 3: agree with you, that's one of the most important things

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Speaker 3: we can do to ensure the future. You know, we

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Speaker 3: have a healthy deer herd next year and well into

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Speaker 3: the future.

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Speaker 2: So this is something that I'm seeing pop up more

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Speaker 2: and more with a sense of urgency from people in

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Speaker 2: the whitetail hunting conservation community. Definitely from the National Deer

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Speaker 2: Association and other agencies on the country related to deer

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Speaker 2: organizations related to deer. This this kind of flashing red

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Speaker 2: light saying we need to take more antlers deer, we

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Speaker 2: need to shoot more does we need to manage the

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Speaker 2: populations more. What's going on for people who maybe have

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Speaker 2: not been hearing this, who haven't been paying attention. What

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Speaker 2: are these things that are making this so concerning where

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Speaker 2: we are right now? And why has there been this increasing,

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Speaker 2: you know, level of concern around if we're taking enough

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Speaker 2: dos and people saying, hey, take more dos, take more dos?

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Speaker 2: I mean we and in the state of Michigan, our

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Speaker 2: deer lead deer biologists sent a very explicit letter I

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Speaker 2: think it was last year to all hunters in the

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Speaker 2: state of Michigan saying like, hey, you have to start

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Speaker 2: taking more does otherwise we will not be able to

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Speaker 2: have deer hunting as a management tool in the way

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Speaker 2: we are right now. So it's getting to a pretty

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Speaker 2: serious level here. Now. Can you just catch people up

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Speaker 2: the speed if they have not been paying attention to

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Speaker 2: this and not have been seeing this. What is causing

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Speaker 2: this level of concern? Why is this becoming in the shoot.

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Speaker 3: Sure. Well, you know, as hunter is one of the

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Speaker 3: most important things we can do is, you know, make

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Speaker 3: sure that we harvest enough antalysts deer to balance deer

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Speaker 3: herds with what our habitats can support. And that often

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Speaker 3: is it odds with what hunters want to see. And

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Speaker 3: I'm the same way when I go hunting, I want

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Speaker 3: to see deer and if I can see a lot

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Speaker 3: of deer, you know, that's fun. I get it, that's fun.

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Speaker 3: So as hunters, you know, nobody wants to go and says, man,

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Speaker 3: I hope I don't see very many deer today. Well,

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Speaker 3: we equate that to how many handless do we shoot. Well,

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Speaker 3: if we shoot that deer, then there's fewer deer in

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Speaker 3: the landscape, so we can't see as much. But the

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Speaker 3: reality of it is we need to shoot appropriate numbers

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Speaker 3: of antalysts deer to not have more than our areas

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Speaker 3: can support, not as many as we want to see,

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Speaker 3: because most areas cannot support as many deer as we

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Speaker 3: would like to see as hunters. So historically we did

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Speaker 3: a great job shooting bucks and not shooting dos, and

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Speaker 3: that worked really well when we were trying to recover

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Speaker 3: herds across most of the range. And it's funny to

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Speaker 3: think back. You know, nineteen ninety nine is the first

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Speaker 3: year in the US that we shot more analysts deer

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Speaker 3: than bucks. Now, I know a lot of your listeners

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Speaker 3: weren't born in nineteen ninety nine yet, and there's a

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Speaker 3: lot of new hunters that makes that sounds like ancient times.

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Speaker 3: But think about it. You know, we've been hunting white tails,

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Speaker 3: you know, in the US almost one hundred years under

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Speaker 3: you know, regulated hunting before we shot more dos in bucks.

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Speaker 3: And that's really the whole QDM movement. That's when you know,

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Speaker 3: the QDMA was was started. So hey, let's let's teach

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Speaker 3: people the value of shooting dough. So fast forward, Mark

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Speaker 3: with a lot of the education from when we're out

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Speaker 3: the year two thousand up to the year about twenty ten,

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Speaker 3: hunters really answer the call and we're harvested more analysts

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Speaker 3: deer than bucks every year through that time, which was great.

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Speaker 3: For the first time ever, we were getting deer herds

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Speaker 3: pretty much in balance with what our habitats could support.

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Speaker 2: That was awesome.

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Speaker 3: Well, somewhere around you know, twenty eleven, in twenty twelve,

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Speaker 3: we had a couple of terrible hemorrhagic disease years. We

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Speaker 3: had some other things going on where hunters had reduced

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Speaker 3: deer herds. Other side of mortality kind of took over,

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Speaker 3: and suddenly deer herds dipped a little bit in many places,

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Speaker 3: and it scared the heck out of hunters. So that's

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Speaker 3: when they said, WHOA, let's back off. And since the

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Speaker 3: early twenty tens, we have just been harvested and fewer

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Speaker 3: and fewer and fewer analysts deer. That's what really brings

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Speaker 3: us to where we are today because with everything, you know,

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Speaker 3: that pendulum kind of swings, swings one way or man,

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Speaker 3: we're harvesting a lot of analysts deer. Folks get nervous

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Speaker 3: right now, it's kind of swung all the way to

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Speaker 3: the other end where we're just protecting them too much.

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Speaker 3: And as proof of this, we look at percentage of

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Speaker 3: hunters in the US that are successful. A decade ago,

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Speaker 3: it was about forty eight percent of all hunters would

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Speaker 3: shoot a deer annually. You know, that's just one. You know,

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Speaker 3: most people think man hunters are going out where everybody's

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Speaker 3: killing them old. The reality is over half of the

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Speaker 3: hunters don't shoot a single deer. If you look at

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Speaker 3: now today, that's only about forty percent of hunters are successful.

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Speaker 3: So what's happening is hunters are just choosing not to

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Speaker 3: shoot deer. This isn't a matter of there's no deer available,

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Speaker 3: deer herds a two. This is hunters making conscious decisions.

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Speaker 3: I am not going to pull the trigger on in

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Speaker 3: many cases that dough. So that's what's led us to

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Speaker 3: where we are today. We're just harvesting deer at a

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Speaker 3: lower rate at a time when deer herds are growing

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Speaker 3: across most of the range. That's why you have more

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Speaker 3: state wilife agencies than ever before today's imploring their hunters

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Speaker 3: please take an ant list deer. So that's what really

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Speaker 3: probably brings you and I to sitting together here this

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Speaker 3: morning talking.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so are there any I guess, what are the

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Speaker 2: signs that this is actually happening? So I know people

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Speaker 2: are worried about it. I know the state agencies are

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Speaker 2: worried about it. Have we seen this in the actual

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Speaker 2: harvest reports? I mean I believe we have, because I

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Speaker 2: think you and I have talked about this during some

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Speaker 2: of our deer or conversations. But it seems like this

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Speaker 2: is now translating to lower harvest numbers in the states

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Speaker 2: that they're reporting. I think I've saw in Michigan like

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Speaker 2: you said, or maybe this is something I was reading

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Speaker 2: earlier today just about the fact that our deer harvest

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Speaker 2: numbers have been going down dramatically in Michigan, like something

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Speaker 2: like twenty five percent decline maybe last year or something

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Speaker 2: along those lines. So this is translating. This isn't just

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Speaker 2: like a vibes thing. This is like a real data

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Speaker 2: thing too, correct.

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Speaker 3: That's absolutely right. And states are measuring this with reduced

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Speaker 3: ante list harvest, and this is at a time mark

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Speaker 3: we are at historically high buck harvest, So we are

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Speaker 3: killing as many or more bucks today than you know

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Speaker 3: that we have almost every year in the past hundred years.

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Speaker 3: So what that means is that shows us that deer

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Speaker 3: herds are continued to expand that's how you have more

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Speaker 3: bucks on the landscape. So we have actual data showing

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Speaker 3: reduced antelyst harvest in many states, increasing buckharts in many states.

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Speaker 3: That shows the deer herd is growing. We have reduced

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Speaker 3: nutritional planes in many states. As they're collecting biological data

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Speaker 3: on deer so they know, you know, kidney fat indexes

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Speaker 3: showing deer going into winter with with lower fat levels,

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Speaker 3: body weights by age class dropping. There's lots of different

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Speaker 3: indicators showing we clearly have more deer and in many

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Speaker 3: places more deer than we have good, high quality food available.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, there's you know, states measure this stuff differently,

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Speaker 3: but you know many, many states that they have absolute

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Speaker 3: solid data showing deer herds are growing like crazy. We're

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Speaker 3: shooting fewer dose. We're not shooting fewer bucks, We're shooting

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Speaker 3: fewer dos. And that's why we really have to You know,

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Speaker 3: it's fun to be shooting these bucks. That's awesome. I

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Speaker 3: love too. Now's where the step is. Hey, as hunters,

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Speaker 3: you know you got that, but like, that's awesome. Now,

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Speaker 3: let's follow that up and make sure you get a

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Speaker 3: dough or in many cases, you know, a couple of

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Speaker 3: dose for each of those bucks that you're shooting.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so what does this look like if this trend continues?

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Speaker 2: I guess what I'm getting at here. What I want

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Speaker 2: to better understand is what is the risk of inaction

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Speaker 2: if we don't change this trend? If the deer populations

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Speaker 2: continue to swell and we as hunters cannot manage them

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Speaker 2: in balance with the habitat and balance with the herd.

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Speaker 2: What negative ramifications might be in store.

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Speaker 3: Well, first of all, if we're if we're not harvesting

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Speaker 3: enough dose so that deer herds get too high. The

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Speaker 3: first ramification is, you know, our deer herd health starts

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Speaker 3: to suffer. They're just not getting you know, enough food

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Speaker 3: to meet you know, their their growth requirements are certainly

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Speaker 3: not to meet what their potential is. So that means

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Speaker 3: body weights get smaller, means they can raise fewer fonds.

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Speaker 3: It means anglers get smaller, you know, none of which

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Speaker 3: hunters want. So that is the impact to deer. Then

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Speaker 3: there's the impact to the habitat. If there's more deer

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Speaker 3: than there should be, our habitats become degraded and then

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Speaker 3: they can it can hold even if you were deer

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Speaker 3: in the future. So that's the bad part to habitat.

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Speaker 3: All those other wildlife species out there that share that

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Speaker 3: habitat with deer now they're negatively impacted. So it's negatively

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Speaker 3: impacting those And then from a hunter end, you know,

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Speaker 3: we continue to have higher crop damage dollar amounts because

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Speaker 3: of deer. We continue to have more other deer human

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Speaker 3: conflicts like deer vehicle collisions, et cetera. So as those

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Speaker 3: things increase, that just makes hunting become less important if

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Speaker 3: we're not doing the job that we want. You know,

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Speaker 3: only about four percent of our society hunts. You know,

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Speaker 3: You and I are in the distinct minority in our kids,

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Speaker 3: you know, and we don't get to do anything in

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Speaker 3: this country because four percent of us want to do it.

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Speaker 3: And you hear people say it's my God given right

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Speaker 3: to hunt, and man, I wish it was, but that's

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Speaker 3: not true. We get to hunt today because between seventy

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Speaker 3: five and eighty percent of American adults support legal, ethical,

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Speaker 3: regulated hunting, and they support that even though most of

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Speaker 3: those donut support it, because they see hunters providing that

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Speaker 3: free service to society. Part of that, or a big

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Speaker 3: part of that, is harvesting enough antlyst deer to keep

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Speaker 3: deer herds healthy. So as hunters, we want to do

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Speaker 3: the best job possible to be providing that service to

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Speaker 3: society so that we get to continue to do it,

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Speaker 3: because if we don't, society is going to find an

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Speaker 3: answer somehow. I'm doing everything possible every day of work

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Speaker 3: to make sure that hunters are the champions and the

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Speaker 3: ones that continue. So that's why we try to educate

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Speaker 3: hunters on Hey, this is why it's in our best

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Speaker 3: benefit to be shooting antlysts deer and be mentoring other

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Speaker 3: people and encouraging them to shoot analysts deer. You know,

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Speaker 3: we're not looking to get rid of all the deer.

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Speaker 3: We're just looking to harvest enough so that we have

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Speaker 3: a deer herd in balance, whether it's habitat, so it's

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Speaker 3: very healthy deer herds, healthy habitat, and then you know

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Speaker 3: that is what will allow us to hunt into perpetuity.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, it's what's concerning, or one of

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Speaker 2: the things that's really concerning when you look down the

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Speaker 2: road is what happens when whitetailed deer are looked at

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Speaker 2: as more of a nuisance and a pest and a

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Speaker 2: detriment than as a benefit to the natural world and

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Speaker 2: to society. And all right, we've heard from many years,

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Speaker 2: like insurance companies not wanting there to be so many deer.

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Speaker 2: Because of that, you're hearing more and more in city

303
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Speaker 2: and suburban environments where deer are damaging not only cars

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Speaker 2: and people's lives, but then also landscaping, whatever might be.

305
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Speaker 2: But I think a thing that's popping up more and more,

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Speaker 2: at least in my world in areas that I'm reading

307
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Speaker 2: about and studying, I'm reading more and more about people

308
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Speaker 2: within the environmental community and the larger conservation world looking

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Speaker 2: at deer as one of the largest detriments to biodiversity

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Speaker 2: and ecosystem health across the country, as this vast overpopulation

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Speaker 2: of deer is destroying important habitat types that are important

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Speaker 2: to pollinating insects, or it's all these other critters that

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Speaker 2: need a healthy, thriving habitat. In areas where deer are

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Speaker 2: overpopulated and we're not managing them, they're just crushing habitat,

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Speaker 2: which then is impacting all these other at risk species.

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Speaker 2: And like you said, if hunters aren't seen as a

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Speaker 2: viable way to manage these deer in balance with the habitat,

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Speaker 2: people are going to seek out other solutions and we

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Speaker 2: will lose our opportunities because of that. So I think

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Speaker 2: you know you've seen some of these things happen in

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Speaker 2: suburban environments and city environments where cities and townships are

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Speaker 2: hiring sharpshooters to manage deer populations. I don't know what

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Speaker 2: that's going to look like and if that will continue

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Speaker 2: to scale in some kind of way if we don't

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Speaker 2: step up to the plate. But what are your thoughts

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Speaker 2: on this biodiversity impact that I continue to read more

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Speaker 2: and more about people looking at white tailed deer as

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Speaker 2: a threat to many other species of wildlife because they're,

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Speaker 2: you know, in some areas, just really leveling the vegetation.

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Speaker 2: You see these browselines that are clearly define the lines

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Speaker 2: across the landscape where there's hardly anything beneath it. Can

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Speaker 2: you can you discuss that a little bit.

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Speaker 3: More sure, And that's absolutely true what you're saying. And

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Speaker 3: you know that's one of the reasons deer are known

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Speaker 3: to be a keystone species. They have the ability to

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Speaker 3: negatively or positively impact, you know, the area that they're living.

337
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Speaker 3: There's very few other species that can can impact it

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Speaker 3: to that level. Beaver's are one example. You know, beaver

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Speaker 3: can come in and absolutely change the habitat where they are. Uh,

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Speaker 3: deer are at the top of that list because deer

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Speaker 3: are so good at surviving. Think about this deer, the

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Speaker 3: oldest well white tails are the oldest deer species we have.

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Speaker 3: You know, they've been around for over four million years.

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Speaker 3: You know, they are good at surviving in many cases

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Speaker 3: at the exclusion of other things that they share the

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Speaker 3: area with. So you know, even if we do a

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Speaker 3: poor job managing them, they continue to find a way

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Speaker 3: to at least survive, maybe at lower levels than they

349
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Speaker 3: are now, but they're going to continue now as they

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Speaker 3: do that. This is where they are negatively impacting that

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Speaker 3: for all those other wildlife species are out there, and

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Speaker 3: where this whole biodiversity concern comes in, you know, in

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Speaker 3: that conversation. Conversely, you know, if we do a good

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Speaker 3: job managing them, they can be the champion for everything else.

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Speaker 3: That's why the value of deer campaign, you know that

356
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Speaker 3: we're so proud of in our spearheading now, is to

357
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Speaker 3: let all those people out there that talk about the

358
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Speaker 3: biodiversity or a concern to that that may not hunt,

359
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,680
Speaker 3: to make them aware of all of the positive things

360
00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,560
Speaker 3: that deer provide in large part funding for our wildlife programs,

361
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Speaker 3: you know, to protect all of those other species out there,

362
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,959
Speaker 3: butterflies and bees and non game and small game. So

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Speaker 3: when hunters, when we get it right, Oh my gosh,

364
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,399
Speaker 3: we are, you know, the champion of champions. Deer are

365
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Speaker 3: the vehicle to make that happen. So as managers, let's

366
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Speaker 3: we know how to put a game plan together, we

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Speaker 3: need the hunters to implement it. And then when hunters

368
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Speaker 3: implement it correctly by shooting appropriate numbers of analysts deer,

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Speaker 3: man it is so good for all of that biological diversity.

370
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Speaker 3: When we fail to implement that part correctly, that's when

371
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Speaker 3: it all starts to fall apart, and that huge segment

372
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,080
Speaker 3: of public that doesn't hunt starts looking at hunting in

373
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Speaker 3: a negative light. So that's what we're trying to guard

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Speaker 3: against here.

375
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think we're starting to see a larger

376
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:20,600
Speaker 2: proportion of our community recognizing the positive impact that we

377
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 2: can have right on the larger natural world on the environment,

378
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Speaker 2: especially those of us who are fortunate to have land

379
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Speaker 2: that we can manage and improve. Like we've seen many

380
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,560
Speaker 2: of us have seen the absolutely tangible impacts we can

381
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Speaker 2: have on the landscape by you know, improving the early

382
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,680
Speaker 2: successional habitat component or planning food plots, or managing timber

383
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:43,640
Speaker 2: or whatever might be. All of those things help deer

384
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:45,879
Speaker 2: and they help all of these other creatures, and so

385
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Speaker 2: many of us are starting to see the value there

386
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,399
Speaker 2: and how we can benefit the everything. We can benefit

387
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Speaker 2: the biodiversity. But a really important piece, like one of

388
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Speaker 2: the very most important things we can do, maybe more

389
00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,760
Speaker 2: important than making some of these habitat improvements or just

390
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:04,159
Speaker 2: as is this dear antlelus harvest management component of it.

391
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Speaker 2: If you just improve habitat but you're not managing the

392
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Speaker 2: dell population, you probably are. You know, you're missing out

393
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,800
Speaker 2: on a huge upside that could be there if you

394
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:31,120
Speaker 2: were to do both right. So they go hand in hand. Now,

395
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:37,719
Speaker 2: another thing here that I have heard increasingly getting bandied around,

396
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 2: and something that I think is concerning to many hunters,

397
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Speaker 2: is one of the more aggressive proposals that I have

398
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:50,760
Speaker 2: been hearing for those people within the government or otherwise

399
00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 2: trying to manage the deer population. People saying, hey, we

400
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,640
Speaker 2: got to get these deer populations down. It's becoming dangerous,

401
00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,600
Speaker 2: it's damaging the environment, it's etc. Etc. The idea of

402
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:05,080
Speaker 2: putting a dollar value on on deer again and allowing

403
00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 2: folks to monetize them, and opening up market hunting to

404
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,879
Speaker 2: some degree again to try to incentivize harvest can you

405
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,360
Speaker 2: speak to how viable that is? Is that? Is that?

406
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,720
Speaker 2: Is that a real threat? Is that actually possible down

407
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,680
Speaker 2: the line, and why is that concerning if it were

408
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 2: to happen.

409
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 3: I think that it I'll answered the first question is

410
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,119
Speaker 3: is that a real threat? I think absolutely. You know,

411
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,240
Speaker 3: we have markets in wildlife in other places. You know,

412
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,160
Speaker 3: you're allowed to sell muskrat meat in Maryland, that's done

413
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 3: all the time. We sell hides of fur bearers, we

414
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:43,399
Speaker 3: sell fish, so uh, you know, uh, deer are not

415
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 3: allowed in that. You know when we ended the whole

416
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,440
Speaker 3: market hunting back in the early nineteen hundred, you know,

417
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,119
Speaker 3: that's what saved deer populations and it's been such an

418
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,200
Speaker 3: integral part of our North American model of wildlife conservation.

419
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 3: You know, no markets for that, well, there's always been

420
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 3: loopholes around that, not for deer, but for other species.

421
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 3: So is it a viable discussion? I think absolutely. I

422
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 3: think it's something you know, that should scare the heck

423
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,159
Speaker 3: out of a lot of hunters. You know, we have

424
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,880
Speaker 3: the opportunity to fix this right now that in my opinion,

425
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,439
Speaker 3: commercializing white tails would be a bad idea for the

426
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,399
Speaker 3: future of wildlife management. I don't think that's good. And

427
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Speaker 3: I'm not somebody that's a traditionalist and just has to

428
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 3: go by what we have done in the past. I

429
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,119
Speaker 3: am all about finding solutions and thinking out of the box.

430
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Speaker 3: I just personally don't think that is a good one

431
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,879
Speaker 3: for white tails, at least not now. You know, maybe

432
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 3: in the future that may be necessary, but right now,

433
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 3: I don't. I do not think that's a positive thing

434
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,880
Speaker 3: for deer or the future of our over wildlife management programs.

435
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 3: But it's absolutely something that's being talked about more and

436
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:48,679
Speaker 3: as the number of hunters that are at least the

437
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,920
Speaker 3: percentage of the US population the hunts continues to decline,

438
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,880
Speaker 3: that is something that would become a more real and

439
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 3: real discussion and something that could absolutely be on the

440
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 3: table for hunters in the future.

441
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. So again another clear reason why we need to

442
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 2: take control this issue now ourselves, rather than let somebody

443
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 2: else take control of the narrative and put those kinds

444
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 2: of solutions on the.

445
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 3: Table, right for sure, for sure.

446
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 2: Okay, So, one of the things that we always hear

447
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 2: when the topic of antelus harvest comes up is well,

448
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 2: there's no deer in my area or everyone already shoots

449
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 2: all the dos where I am, or this will crush

450
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 2: the deer population where I live. I'm not going to

451
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 2: do that. How can someone determine whether or not this

452
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 2: issue applies to them? How can you determine whether or

453
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 2: not you should be harvesting antelus deer where you hunt?

454
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 3: Well, I think that you know, what hunters need to

455
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 3: recognize is that all of our state wildlife agencies, you know,

456
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 3: implement our hunting seasons, and they manage deer on a

457
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,880
Speaker 3: wildlife management unit or a deer management unit or deer

458
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,199
Speaker 3: management zone basis. You know, as hunters, we hunt at

459
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:03,120
Speaker 3: the property level. Our wildlife agens aren't managing deer at

460
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 3: the level that we hunt. They're managing them on a

461
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 3: larger scale. And then we need to realize that in

462
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 3: across those units, there are places where there's more deer

463
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 3: than there should be. There may be some places where

464
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 3: there's fewer deer than they should be in somewhere it's

465
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,400
Speaker 3: right about in balance. So that's where you have someone

466
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 3: to say, there are no deer in my unit. Well

467
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 3: maybe there's no deer on your property. That's probably not true,

468
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 3: but just understand that, you know what throughout that unit

469
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 3: you're hunting in, there has been a lot of data

470
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 3: collected by your state wilife agency, and that's why they

471
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 3: have applied that harvest the level, whether you know it's

472
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,360
Speaker 3: moderate or high or whatever. So don't be arguing that

473
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,360
Speaker 3: that's wrong for that whole unit. Now within the property

474
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 3: that you hunt on and pay I hunt at the

475
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,120
Speaker 3: property level, and so do you, and so do every

476
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 3: other hunter from that. There are ways to be able

477
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 3: to figure out, you know, should I shoot any dose,

478
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 3: should it be one, should it be multiple? And there's

479
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 3: some scientific information that I can give you. The easiest

480
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 3: thing mark is actually on our website, we have a

481
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 3: dough harvest diagnosis. It's a page you can look at

482
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 3: and there's a bunch of questions. You just answer yes

483
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 3: or no to each and at the end you count

484
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 3: up the number of yes as the number of nos,

485
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 3: and it tells you should you be harvested more deer

486
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 3: in your area or not. So if folks want to

487
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 3: go do that, that's an easy way to do that.

488
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 3: But I will tell you, in general, across most of

489
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 3: the white tails range, a good place to start is

490
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,400
Speaker 3: for hunters to be harvest in at least as many

491
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,479
Speaker 3: ante lists deer as they are bucks on the property

492
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 3: that they hunt. There's places in New England, there's places

493
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 3: you know in northern Minnesota, Wisconsin or Nebraska with deer

494
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 3: herds are you know, not real productive or at least

495
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 3: not growing quick that you just simply can't harvest as

496
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 3: many dos there. But that is not true for most

497
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 3: of the white tails range. Almost all the white tails range,

498
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 3: we need to be harvest in at least as many

499
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 3: antalysts deer, and in most cases more antalyst deer than bucks.

500
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,159
Speaker 3: Everybody can apply that right to your property level. If

501
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 3: you're a hunt at your in Michigan camp, you know,

502
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 3: when we shot five bucks this year, I will issue

503
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,399
Speaker 3: you should have been shooting more than five dos, and

504
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 3: in many cases probably at least twice that many. My

505
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 3: my hunting camp in northern Pennsylvania, our twenty year average

506
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,640
Speaker 3: is we shoot between three and four ant list deer

507
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 3: for every antler buck that we shoot. And uh, and

508
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 3: we have phenomenal hunting. You know, lots of folks say, well, man,

509
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,399
Speaker 3: you know you guys shoot nice bucks. I wish I

510
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 3: could hunt there. Well, you know, part of the good

511
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 3: hunting is we work hard on the habitat, and we

512
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 3: work really hard to shoot enough ante list deer each year,

513
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 3: so you know those those go together. But that's a

514
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,360
Speaker 3: good place for folks to start. Start by shooting more

515
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 3: does than bucks.

516
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 2: Where do we find that dough harvest diagnosis tool you

517
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 2: mentioned on the website? It does go.

518
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 3: It is so at Dear Association dot com. There is

519
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 3: there under I think it's under one of our programs

520
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 3: or materials available. Gosh, it's been so long since I

521
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 3: have looked on the side. I know we have it there,

522
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 3: but it's on our site. It's a one page pdf

523
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 3: that folks can grab. I've been to make it easy.

524
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 3: Mark when I can do we get done here. I

525
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 3: can send you there or email that to you if

526
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 3: you want to include a link to it in the show.

527
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 2: Notes or something. But yeah, we'll have a link.

528
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 3: I'll make it available because that's a super easy way.

529
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 3: If somebody says, hey, you know what I actually collect data?

530
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 3: I do camera surveys or I scout a lot. A

531
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 3: good rule of thumb is, if you want to stabilize

532
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 3: a deer herd, shoot twenty to thirty percent of the

533
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,199
Speaker 3: dose each year, which means if you shoot fewer than

534
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 3: twenty to thirty percent, that deer herd is likely going

535
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 3: to grow. If you want to reduce the deer herd,

536
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 3: shoot more than twenty to thirty percent of the dose.

537
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 3: So you know, say you do a camera survey and hey,

538
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 3: I got ten dos using my property. If you shoot

539
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 3: two or three, you probably keep that deer herd right there.

540
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 3: If you shoot you know, four to five us a

541
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 3: chance show you're going to reduce it. So that's a

542
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,479
Speaker 3: good rule of thumb as well. And that's what I

543
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 3: have used. We do summer camera surveys on our Pennsylvania farm.

544
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 3: I have every year for over twenty years. That is

545
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 3: exactly what I do to estimate, Hey, here's probably how

546
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 3: many different bucks are using our farm during the year,

547
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 3: and then this is how many doughs we're going to shoot.

548
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 3: We go into every deer season with a plan and

549
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 3: I tell all the guys hount in our land, you know,

550
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 3: we're going to shoot you know, eight to ten dos

551
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 3: this year. We're going to shoot you know, eighteen to

552
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 3: twenty dos this year. So that comes from that camera survey.

553
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 3: Not everybody can do that, So that's why we also

554
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 3: developed that dough harvest diagnosis sheet I mentioned, So you

555
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 3: just go through it and answer yes or no, and

556
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 3: then come up with with what your strategy should be.

557
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 2: Terrific And like you said, for probably three quarters of

558
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 2: the nation, the answer is an obvious yes. Definitely for

559
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 2: anyone in the bottom two thirds of my home state.

560
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 2: Here in Michigan, I think you'd be hard pressed to

561
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 2: find anywhere in this state other than the far northern

562
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 2: reaches where there's just not a pile of deer in

563
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 2: most areas that need this kind of action. But despite

564
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 2: that fact, people my you know, I have friends and

565
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 2: folks that I know who had the same questions, concerns,

566
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 2: or excuses for not shooting. Does beyond just well there's

567
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 2: not enough. So you wrote an article recently for the

568
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 2: NBA's website that covered some of these. I wanted to

569
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 2: talk through a few with you, and one of them

570
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 2: is something I've heard from people, which is, well, my

571
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 2: state has such a crazy high bag limit. You know

572
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 2: they they't like in Michigan. I think you can buy

573
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 2: ten dough tags. They're trying to shoot every day deer

574
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 2: out there. All these deer must be getting killed. There's

575
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 2: no way I should shoot a bunch of them because

576
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 2: everybody else is, or you know that I've been hearing

577
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 2: there's depredation tags being given out. I've heard of some

578
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 2: farmers shooting fifty deer every year over here. I better

579
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 2: not do it myself. Can you speak to that one

580
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 2: a little bit?

581
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 3: Sure? And you know when I get it, You know,

582
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 3: I'm the same way if I'm hearing what's going on

583
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 3: in my town or down at the you know, the

584
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 3: local bar or local coffee shop. You know, yeah, I

585
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 3: heard Mark shot three and he had people over his

586
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 3: private shot ten, and that story gets shared. Suddenly you

587
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 3: wonder why there's any deer left in your in your

588
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 3: whole township, the other gone. The reality of it is,

589
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 3: that's not true. The reality of it is, we monitor

590
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 3: harvest success rates from every state in the country annually,

591
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 3: and you know, less than half of the hunters that

592
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 3: go afield any year shoot a single deer, and about

593
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 3: half of those that do shoot bucks. You know, if

594
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 3: you're only going to shoot one deer, many people prefer

595
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 3: a buck, so most won't shoot any A good percentage

596
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 3: shoot a bux, which means then there's a large percentage

597
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 3: that don't shoot any dough. So we share some data

598
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 3: to show, hey, most people don't kill a single dough,

599
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 3: even though you have the opportunities to kill multiple dose

600
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 3: you know, all those years. The reality of it is

601
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 3: most are not. So that's the first thing to let

602
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 3: we try to share our folks, just to make them

603
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 3: aware we're not making this up. Here's what the data

604
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 3: actually says. You don't need to be afraid to shoot

605
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 3: one because you think they're all gone or that they're

606
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 3: over harvested. You know, most people just simply aren't shooting

607
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 3: that at all. So we try to make that available

608
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 3: because if hunters see that and start to understand that,

609
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,080
Speaker 3: that's the first step to reduce in those barriers that

610
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 3: maybe we can convince them to pull the trigger on

611
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 3: a dough.

612
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 2: All right, here's another one. Well, I don't want to

613
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 2: shoot a dough in the late season when we're discussing

614
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 2: this right now, because that dough has already been bred

615
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 2: by the big giant buck that I hope is running

616
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: around out here, and I don't want to lose that

617
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 2: future buck. I don't want the genetics from that big

618
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 2: buck to disappear because I shoot the dough that he bred.

619
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 2: What about that one.

620
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 3: I think from that one. I say, you know what,

621
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 3: You're right, you should have shot that dough back in

622
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 3: September or October. Then you wouldn't have had to worry

623
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 3: about it. There's a lot of benefits to early antler

624
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 3: this harvest, and I would love if we could shoot

625
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 3: all the dos on us, you know, in October. The

626
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 3: reality of it is that just doesn't happen. So we

627
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 3: get into you know, the rut, and then we're postbruck.

628
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 3: From a biological standpoint, it makes absolutely no difference to

629
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 3: that deer herd whether you shot that dough early in

630
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 3: the year or after she had been bred. Think about

631
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 3: like this. We know that a lot of the bucks

632
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 3: out there get in and on the breeding, and in fact,

633
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 3: research shows at about a quarter of all the twin

634
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 3: fawns we see aren't real twins, they have different fathers.

635
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 3: So we know that not only are a lot of

636
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 3: bucks breeding, we know that some does are bred by

637
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 3: multiple bucks. So between that we know and the other

638
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 3: research done on actual antler growth and who's siren who,

639
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 3: But from a hunting standpoint, mark we can't do anything

640
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 3: to impact antler genetics in the wild. We can absolutely

641
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 3: impact antler growth by making sure that there's not too

642
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 3: many deer for anaria, and making sure that bucks are

643
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 3: getting into older age classes. Those are two things that

644
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 3: hunters can do every single day. We can do absolutely

645
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 3: nothing about the actual genetics of what those those faons have,

646
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 3: you know, from the sires. So from that, if somebody

647
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 3: is saying, man, I don't want to shoot a dough

648
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 3: now that's bred from it, maybe have bred by the

649
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 3: biggest buck, you don't know, that probably was not bred

650
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 3: by him. And even if he was, you don't that's

651
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 3: not a guarantee that that faon will have big antlers

652
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 3: if it is a buck fund. So that doesn't even

653
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 3: need to come into you know what, the conversation at all.

654
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 2: So I want to reiterate or have you reiterate something

655
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 2: you said there for those people listening who are really

656
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 2: fired up about big giant bucks, they can't influence how

657
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 2: many big giant bucks they're going to have by shooting

658
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 2: call bucks. Because we've talked in the past about how

659
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 2: the as you just said, we can't really influence genetics.

660
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,320
Speaker 2: You can't influence it by making sure that the genetics

661
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 2: of a certain buck are passed on by not shooting

662
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,760
Speaker 2: a dough. But there was something you did say could

663
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 2: influence the antlers of future deer, which is making sure

664
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 2: there's not too many deer in the landscape. Right, that's correct.

665
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 3: Age is the biggest influence for antler size, just letting

666
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 3: them get old enough to express what their potential is.

667
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 3: The next biggest thing is just nutrition, making sure they

668
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 3: you know what, And I will say this, I've been

669
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 3: blessed to travel across the country actually and across the

670
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,320
Speaker 3: world to talk about white tails and work with white tails.

671
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 3: In almost every place I have been, those deer would

672
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 3: have been benefited from more nutrition, even in Southeast Ive.

673
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 3: I have been in some of the best whitetail country

674
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 3: in the world that grows some of the biggest whitetails,

675
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 3: and in those areas, those bucks could be even bigger

676
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 3: if there were fewer deer there and they had more food. So,

677
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,479
Speaker 3: as hunters, we do that by enhancing habitat and by

678
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 3: shooting dos so that we reduce the number of miles

679
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,320
Speaker 3: competing for that good food that we provide.

680
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, moving down the list, how about well,

681
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 2: I don't want to shoot does right now or at

682
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 2: any time of year, because I don't want to accidentally

683
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 2: shoot a button buck, which will then be my future

684
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 2: booner that I'm working towards and spending all this money

685
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 2: on improving habitat for and got all my fancy hunting

686
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 2: gear to shoot. I don't want to shoot my bucks

687
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,839
Speaker 2: by accident. What do you say to someone who's worried

688
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 2: about that, and how can we prepare? What can we

689
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 2: do to ensure that doesn't happen?

690
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 3: I think one tell them, hey, thank you for at

691
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,439
Speaker 3: least considering shooting an analyst deer. Thank you for being

692
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 3: cognizant enough to understand the difference between buck vah dough

693
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 3: fonds and adult doughs, you know, and try to do

694
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 3: a better job from a manager standpoint, and shoot a

695
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 3: dough as opposed to a future buck, because by passing

696
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,919
Speaker 3: buck fonnds, yes, you can have more bucks on the landscape.

697
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 3: But also by shooting that adult dough you are doing

698
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 3: a better job helping manage that deer herd by reducing,

699
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 3: you know, one of the breeding females. So that is

700
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 3: all very good. There's nothing wrong with being concerned about that.

701
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 3: In fact, it shows that you have a little more

702
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 3: respect for that deer herd and want to do a

703
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 3: good job as a steward. Now I'll say this, there

704
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 3: is nothing wrong with shooting fonnds. Absolutely nothing wrong with

705
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 3: either buck fonnds or dough funds. So you know you

706
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 3: don't need to feel bad about that. And there's a

707
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 3: great rule of thumb that shows you know, all of

708
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 3: your antlers harvest, as long as about ten percent of

709
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 3: that are buck fawnds, you're totally fine. You're not negatively

710
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,720
Speaker 3: impacting the future of that at all. Now, if fifty

711
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 3: or sixty percent of your handlers harvest are buck fonnds,

712
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 3: you are absolutely going to negatively impact what you have.

713
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 3: But as long long as you keep that total antless

714
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 3: harvest to about ten percent buck fawns or lower man,

715
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 3: there is nothing wrong at all. So know that going in. Okay,

716
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 3: now I see some ant let this, dear, how can

717
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 3: I do the best job picking out or making sure

718
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 3: one is a dough and not a fawn. Well, if

719
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 3: you shoot them earlier in a year, it's easier to

720
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 3: tell because there's a greater size difference.

721
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 2: I like that.

722
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 3: But now, man, those buck falls can be about as

723
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,879
Speaker 3: big as some of the adult does, particularly the one

724
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 3: and a half year old doze. So with that, there's

725
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:32,919
Speaker 3: a couple of things we can look at mark from

726
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:36,919
Speaker 3: a physical standpoint and a behavioral standpoint that will help us.

727
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 3: So from a physical standpoint, fawns are still a little smaller,

728
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 3: but if we look at the bodies, like and if

729
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:48,439
Speaker 3: you're seeing broadside deer an adult dough, if you look

730
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 3: at the space between her front legs and her back legs,

731
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:56,359
Speaker 3: it is rectangular. That same area on a fawn is

732
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 3: more square because they're just not as long as a dough.

733
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 3: That's why it helps having multiple deer available, because just

734
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 3: looking at one you can be tricked pretty easily, but

735
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 3: if you have two there to compare, that makes it

736
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 3: a lot easier. If we can see their head, the

737
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 3: distance from a fawn's forehead to its eye is about

738
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:18,280
Speaker 3: the same as it's eye to its end of its nose,

739
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 3: so that if you look at then's whole head in profile,

740
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 3: the eye is about right in the middle. An adult dough,

741
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 3: the distance from her forehead to her eye are shorter

742
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 3: than the distance from her eye to her nose. You

743
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 3: can see that long and I have identified so many

744
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,320
Speaker 3: antlests here as a dough or a fawn based solely

745
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 3: on looking at that heads from the side. If we

746
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 3: see them from the front, a fawn's ears appear larger

747
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 3: relative to its whole head than a doze, so we

748
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 3: can use that as well. So ears, face, and body.

749
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 3: There's three things from a physical standpoint that we can

750
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 3: help differentiate between those two even before we get to

751
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 3: any of the behavioral stuff. So those are all great

752
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 3: indicators from a physical or a behavioral standpoint. Then we

753
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 3: can watch how they interact. Fawns are less wary than adults,

754
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 3: so they're almost always the first deer that shows up

755
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 3: at a food source, particularly a food plot or some

756
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 3: other area that doesn't have much cover. Maybe you're in

757
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 3: a you know, helping some oak woods and there's a

758
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 3: big open oak flat. You know, hey, they're often the

759
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,760
Speaker 3: first one's in there as well. So seeing the first

760
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 3: deer come in, waiting the harvest on that one, you know,

761
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 3: until another one is present, can help you pick an

762
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,879
Speaker 3: adult dough or Hey, if you want to shoot a fawn,

763
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 3: you know you can bet that you know what the

764
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 3: first one in there is a good chance it is

765
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 3: a fun if you have multiple deer there. Now you

766
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 3: can watch not only the size, but behaviorally as well,

767
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 3: who appears to be in charge. Oftentimes adult doughs will

768
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 3: go over, you know, and it can either smack a

769
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,839
Speaker 3: fond to remove them from an area, or the faun

770
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 3: will follow the dough and it's very clear kind of

771
00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:59,399
Speaker 3: who's in charge. So we can watch some of that

772
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 3: behavior as well and do a really good job identifying that.

773
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 3: And from that, the last thing that we can look

774
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 3: at is if we see the head shape. Even without antlers,

775
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,359
Speaker 3: bucks have a very flat head, So whether a buck

776
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 3: that has shed its antlers or a buck fawnd, it's

777
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 3: very flat between the ears. Dose have rounded heads, so

778
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 3: it's really really easy to tell that when they're in

779
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 3: summer coat. It becomes a little more difficult in winter coat.

780
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 3: But if we study and we can still see that.

781
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 3: So that's a great way to differentiate buck fawns from

782
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 3: dough faunds, buck fawns from adult does, or even bucks

783
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 3: that have shed their antlers from adult does. So with

784
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 3: a little bit of study, and I will say this,

785
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 3: it makes that way easier if we have some good optics.

786
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 3: So you know, don't go hunting without your binoculars. You know,

787
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 3: I never leave home without my vortex binoculars, and I

788
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 3: spend more time in them than I do my scope,

789
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,040
Speaker 3: and I confirm what's going on there before I go

790
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 3: to my scope. So good optics really help. Not shooting

791
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,919
Speaker 3: in real low light situations can help, or waiting until

792
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 3: there's better light can certainly help that as well. So,

793
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 3: you know, there's things that we can look at on

794
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 3: the deer, there's things we can observe from deer, and

795
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 3: there's some things we can do from a hunting end

796
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 3: as well to all, you know, improve the chances that

797
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,479
Speaker 3: we're shooting adult dose and not buck faonnds or any

798
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:25,280
Speaker 3: fond or even shed bucks.

799
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,879
Speaker 2: Yeah. So on that shed buck topic, that's another one

800
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 2: that people are worried about. So the obvious thing, as

801
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 2: you described there, was to make sure to check out

802
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 2: that head with your buy no's and carefully study the forehead,

803
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 2: but from the body perspective or anything else when it

804
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 2: comes to determining or differentiating a mature dough from a

805
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 2: shed buck, are there any other things you would recommend

806
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:50,359
Speaker 2: looking for?

807
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that is a legitimate concern as well. And

808
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 3: I'm very cognizant when I'm hunting in late December or

809
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 3: January of watching an antlyst deer to make sure it's

810
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,359
Speaker 3: not a shed buck. So one, I am making sure

811
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,359
Speaker 3: that I use my optics like we just discussed. Two,

812
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 3: I am watching structurally on that deer bucks at that

813
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,399
Speaker 3: time of the year. For most of the white tails range.

814
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 3: You know, my buddy's down in Alabama and Louisiana and

815
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 3: the place is at rut really late. This is a

816
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 3: little different for them, but for most of the ear

817
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 3: else of the country. You know where our buck's rout

818
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 3: in early to mid November, late season, once they have shed. Structurally,

819
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 3: looking at them, they are off and just thin looking.

820
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 3: They are rectangular between the front legs and back legs

821
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 3: like the dose we talked about. But they tend to

822
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 3: be slim because you know, they just don't eat much

823
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 3: during the rut, and there's a lot of data the

824
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 3: shows you know, they'll lose twenty to twenty five percent

825
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:48,399
Speaker 3: of their body weight during the rut, so they can

826
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 3: get pretty slim. That's why a food sources. You know,

827
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:53,319
Speaker 3: they're trying to eat all they can to put on

828
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 3: anything possible, you know, before we get into the full winter.

829
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,479
Speaker 3: So looking at them, if you're looking at a deer

830
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 3: late seas I clearly see it's an adult. Can't really

831
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 3: see the head good, but just looking at the body,

832
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,319
Speaker 3: if that body looks pretty round or pretty fit, it's

833
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 3: probably a dough. It's probably not a buck that's gone

834
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 3: through the riggers of the rut. Conversely, if you look

835
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 3: at it and go, now, that looks a little slim,

836
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 3: there's a better and an average chance show that that

837
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 3: can be a buck or it's a dough that's just

838
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 3: really nutritionally deprived. But that's something that I use Behaviorally.

839
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 3: Those bucks still act a little different from the does.

840
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,239
Speaker 3: You know, once they lose their ramtlers, they know they

841
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 3: don't have them anymore, so they're not as apt to

842
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 3: you know, fight another buck. But they still often act

843
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:40,879
Speaker 3: to be a little bit in charge, you know, over

844
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:42,879
Speaker 3: the does. So if you see a bunch of deer,

845
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 3: particularly in you know, say a food plot or maybe

846
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 3: you have corn and you watch a deer come in,

847
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,240
Speaker 3: that just seems to look like attitude is a little

848
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 3: more in charge or just kind of in many cases

849
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 3: that is a buck that shed their antlers. You know,

850
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,359
Speaker 3: they don't often lose that whole attitude, you know, when

851
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 3: the antlers are going on, So just behaviorally there some

852
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 3: you can as well, But if I'm hunting in I

853
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 3: am just really really studying is that head flat or not,

854
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 3: and trying to pick up on those other cues, because

855
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 3: you know, man, a buck that makes it through, you know,

856
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 3: into late season, if he has shed his antlers from whatever,

857
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 3: you know what, I don't want to be shooting him either.

858
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 3: I want to make sure I'm putting my tag on

859
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 3: a dough, so I take extra care and I'm extra

860
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 3: cautious that time of the year.

861
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 2: Is tarsal gland stain something that can reliably help you

862
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 2: differentiate it all at that point in the year.

863
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 3: That's a great point. Sometimes. Yes, bucks and doze will

864
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 3: rub urine eight year round. They will do that. They

865
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 3: just tend to do it a lot more during the

866
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 3: rut and bucks tend to do it more during the

867
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 3: rut than dose. So once they're they're testosteron levels start

868
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 3: drop in and they're out of the ruck, they're not

869
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:06,320
Speaker 3: rub urinating as much, but you still will see that

870
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 3: dark tarsal staining on bucks, and particularly older bucks that

871
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 3: have rub urinated a lot. It hangs around there a

872
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 3: lot longer than it does and does. So it's not

873
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 3: an absolute telltale sign every single time, but that's a

874
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,439
Speaker 3: great suggestion mark and one thing that you can use,

875
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 3: you know, as one more clue to Hey, is that

876
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 3: likely a buck or is that more likely a dough?

877
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 3: So yeah, that's a really good tip.

878
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:34,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay. So another question, and this one isn't whether

879
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 2: this isn't so much a should you hunt dose or not?

880
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 2: This is a Okay, I've decided I'm going to start hunting.

881
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 2: Does one of the other questions that you get is Okay,

882
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 2: which dough is the best to shoot? Because a whole

883
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 2: pile of them just came out into the cornfield er

884
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 2: just came out in front of me in the clearing,

885
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 2: and I've got a whole bunch of different ones. I

886
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 2: see some big ones, I see some little ones. I

887
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 2: see one with two fawns, I see one all by itself.

888
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 2: What is the best dough to shoot? If I want

889
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 2: to try to make an impact on the herd as

890
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:05,800
Speaker 2: we are discussing, if I want to help manage the

891
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 2: dough herd to bring down that population or at least

892
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 2: stabilize it, what dough should I be shooting?

893
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 3: The older does tend to be better mothers. So if

894
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 3: you're they tend to recruit more fonds. So if you're

895
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 3: looking at reducing the deer herd, shooting an older dough

896
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 3: can help the most. However, we can't estimate age of

897
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 3: dose on the hoof like we can bucks, so that's

898
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 3: a very very difficult thing to do. So what I

899
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 3: tell people to do is and this is exactly the

900
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:33,800
Speaker 3: advice that I follow. If I am looking at a

901
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 3: group of deer and I've identified, you know they're all does,

902
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 3: or there's doze and fawns, or you know, all the

903
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 3: deer at least all the adults there are dose, I

904
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 3: am picking the biggest one out. I am shooting the

905
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:49,320
Speaker 3: biggest dough in the group. That is more likely to

906
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 3: be a dough as opposed to a fawn. It's going

907
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:56,320
Speaker 3: to harvest deer from across the wide range of ages.

908
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 3: The biggest deer there is not necessarily the oldest. I

909
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 3: have seen two year old dough win big dough contest.

910
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:04,279
Speaker 3: I'll see in three year old dough, four year old dough,

911
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 3: five year old dough. Kind Of like humans, some of

912
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 3: us tend to get a lot bigger than others. Some

913
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 3: just don't grow as big, so by harvest and the

914
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 3: biggest dough in the group, you're going to get the

915
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 3: most meat for the freezer, which is good, minimize the

916
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,800
Speaker 3: chance of harvesting a fawn, and then you're going to

917
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 3: then also help harvest deer from across the whole range

918
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 3: of age classes, which is really good for the deer hurt.

919
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 3: Maybe as an individual landowner that's not important, but overall

920
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 3: that's very good. So that's my advice. And if the

921
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 3: biggest deer there was guaranteed to be the oldest, that's great.

922
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,880
Speaker 3: But since we can't figure out which is the oldest,

923
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 3: sometimes behaviorally you can watch interactions in the more dominant

924
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 3: one tends to be the older one. But a very

925
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 3: easy piece of advice that I think across the board

926
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 3: works really well is pick the biggest one out so

927
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 3: that you can put the most meat in your freezer.

928
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:01,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've read recently about study came out somewhat recently

929
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 2: about the possibility of there being super does being does

930
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 2: that are disproportionately impacting the population? Is that something you

931
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 2: can elaborate on at all? Have you have you seen that?

932
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 3: I haven't seen that. I'm guessing they're probably talking about

933
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,239
Speaker 3: ones that are recruiting more fonds maybe or just tend

934
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:22,320
Speaker 3: to be better mothers, you know, because they would have

935
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 3: larger impacts, you know, on the on the deer herd.

936
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 3: So there's no doubt some do a better job recruiting fonds.

937
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 3: All of them, ninety nine percent of them are going

938
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 3: to be bred. Most of them will then be able

939
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 3: to deliver fonds. Some just are do a better job

940
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:40,840
Speaker 3: recruiting them, and recruiting means they keep that phone alive

941
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:43,600
Speaker 3: till they're six months of age and they get into

942
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 3: the fall deer herd. The most dominant does get the

943
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 3: best fawning areas. Oftentimes, the best fawning areas are the

944
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 3: ones that they are able to recruit the most fonds

945
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 3: from because it's where they can hide best from predators.

946
00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 3: It's where you have the best food available to the

947
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 3: mother to feed that fond. So some of that mark

948
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 3: is that they just have qualities that make them better

949
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 3: at protecting fonds. Some of it is they're just the

950
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 3: dominant dough in an area, solid they have all of

951
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 3: the things stacked in their favor to be able to

952
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 3: actually recruit those fonds, you know, and nutrition is a

953
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 3: big thing there. If you take a phone, I mean

954
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 3: a dough on an area, the dominant dough, big healthy dough.

955
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 3: Take the quality of the milk that she's feeding her fon.

956
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 3: The quality of that is exactly the same as the

957
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 3: most nutritionally deprived dough on that area. One is not

958
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 3: better than the other. The difference is that dough that

959
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 3: has a bunch of food produces way more milk for

960
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:43,240
Speaker 3: her fond So that fon will grow much faster because

961
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 3: they have a lot more resources, They grow faster, they

962
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 3: grow quicker than others. They are faster at an earlier

963
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 3: age than others, so they're better able to avoid predators,

964
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 3: and they tend to be bigger in the fall. So

965
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 3: that's why it's important for us to make sure that

966
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,400
Speaker 3: we don't have too many miles on the landscape, because

967
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:05,560
Speaker 3: then dose can actually raise more fawns. Every other fawn

968
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 3: on average is a buck fawn because they're born at

969
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:10,759
Speaker 3: about a fifty to fifty ratio. So for people to

970
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 3: say I want the most bucks, I say, you know,

971
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 3: God bless you, I do too. I like to see

972
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 3: bucks and that keeps people hunting. Do that by shooting

973
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 3: enough does so the dos are as healthy as popular.

974
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 3: That's when they can recruit the most fawnds. That's how

975
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 3: you recruit the most bucks on the landscape. So, man,

976
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 3: when we do things right, it all works out good

977
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 3: to benefit us. And I believe the hunters want to

978
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,359
Speaker 3: do things right, So sharing information like that with them

979
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,800
Speaker 3: can help convince them of the need and the benefit

980
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 3: of shooting a dough.

981
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:45,240
Speaker 2: Now, speaking of fauns, a lot of people have worries

982
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:50,239
Speaker 2: or questions about shooting a dough with fauns. So we're

983
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 2: sitting there in the tree stand and a mature looking

984
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 2: dough and two fawns step out into the open in

985
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:59,799
Speaker 2: front of you. What are your thoughts for someone who

986
00:50:59,920 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 2: is faced with the shoot or don't shoot question at

987
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 2: that point, because some people have worries about.

988
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 3: That, Absolutely, no great question. Most of our fauns in

989
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 3: the northern half of the US anyway, where where deer

990
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 3: are writing in November. Most of the phones are born

991
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 3: in May and June. That means they are wienable by

992
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 3: mid to late August. By ten weeks of age, they're wienable.

993
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 3: They could live on their own. Now, we don't have

994
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 3: deer seasons in August, partly because of that, by the

995
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 3: time our deer seasons start, those fawns are totally fine

996
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 3: to make it on their own if they have been orphaned.

997
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:39,839
Speaker 3: So what I tell people is there is no biological

998
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:43,360
Speaker 3: concern of harvesting that dough. Those fawns will survive, or

999
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 3: at least there's a good chance that they're going to survive.

1000
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 3: The only time I would be hesitant is if those

1001
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 3: fawns still have spots. If it's a spotted fawn, man,

1002
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 3: there's a lot of benefit to leaving that mother with

1003
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:58,719
Speaker 3: him for a longer period of time. Now, obviously that

1004
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 3: dough will continue to help them avoid predators in that,

1005
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 3: you know, but we don't need to worry about most

1006
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 3: of that for the most part. If the fawn is spotted,

1007
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:10,719
Speaker 3: don't shoot that dough. Give it fawn more time with it.

1008
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 3: But if you're into deer season, that fawn, you know,

1009
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 3: is not spotted, It is eating vegetation, it is going

1010
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:19,279
Speaker 3: to group up with other deer anyway, there is no

1011
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:22,840
Speaker 3: biological concern with shooting the mother. Now, if it just

1012
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:24,800
Speaker 3: makes you queezing and say I just don't want to

1013
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,440
Speaker 3: do that, I understand that, go ahead and shoot a

1014
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:30,800
Speaker 3: different do but understand, there is nothing wrong with you

1015
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:33,799
Speaker 3: or somebody else shooting that dough that has fawns with her.

1016
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 3: It's not even guaranteed they're both her fawns because fawns

1017
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,919
Speaker 3: grouped together. And there's some research out of Pennsylvania where

1018
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 3: they trapped deer and did DNA work and in many

1019
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 3: cases the fawn or fawns that walk in with that dough,

1020
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 3: they weren't hers. They weren't even related to her, you know,

1021
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 3: maybe they lost their mother so they just grouped up

1022
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:54,840
Speaker 3: with her. So it's not a guarantee that you're shooting,

1023
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:57,439
Speaker 3: you know, their mother. It's just a dough in that area.

1024
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:01,000
Speaker 3: So nothing wrong at all with with with harvesting that

1025
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 3: adult dough.

1026
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:06,319
Speaker 2: All right, So I'm convinced I need to do more

1027
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 2: to manage the antler list deer population in my area.

1028
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:11,879
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go out there and shoot doze. But I've

1029
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,840
Speaker 2: listened to seventy two podcasts from Wired to Hunt about

1030
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 2: how to kill big mature bucks. Nobody ever tells me

1031
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:20,799
Speaker 2: how to kill big old doe. Can I get Kip

1032
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:24,800
Speaker 2: Adam's top three tips for killing a dough in the

1033
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:26,279
Speaker 2: late season, since that's what we're talking.

1034
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:30,759
Speaker 3: Sure, I'm hopeing a bunch of folks have shot them early.

1035
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 3: If you haven't, it's not too late. We still have

1036
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 3: season so one. Once this run is over, you know,

1037
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:40,839
Speaker 3: doze now are looking also to get as much food

1038
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 3: as they can getting into winter, so food sources are

1039
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 3: an awesome time in the rut, those doughs are often

1040
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 3: and heavy cover just trying to stop from being harassed

1041
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,800
Speaker 3: by bucks. So you know, hunting really heavy cover is

1042
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:56,879
Speaker 3: often advantageous. That's where we want to be in many

1043
00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 3: cases to catch those cruising bucks as well. But the

1044
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 3: rud is pretty much over, winter is getting you know,

1045
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 3: setting in dose. Need to feed as much as possible,

1046
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 3: so food sources are perfect. If you have anything left

1047
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 3: in food plots, if you have opportunity to hunt agricultural fields,

1048
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 3: if you have an opportunity to hunt mask crops, if

1049
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:18,440
Speaker 3: you're in an all wooded area, find the mast, you know,

1050
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 3: if there's any acorns left, any beech nuts left, they

1051
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 3: want that. If not, find areas in wooded areas where

1052
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:28,959
Speaker 3: or wooded situations do you know that have a bunch

1053
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:32,319
Speaker 3: of young seedlings. They need those buds, so they're going

1054
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:35,480
Speaker 3: to do as much as possible to maximize calories that

1055
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 3: they can take in. So I'm hunting food sources like

1056
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:41,960
Speaker 3: crazy late season. That is where we stand the best

1057
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 3: chance to cross paths with a dough beautiful.

1058
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 2: Have you ever tried any outside the box tactics to

1059
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:51,560
Speaker 2: fill a dough tag? Do you ever call? Do you

1060
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 2: ever decoy? Do you ever I don't know, slip around,

1061
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:57,399
Speaker 2: spot and stock, anything that's a little outside of the norm.

1062
00:54:57,480 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 2: Is there anything like that worth considering?

1063
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 3: I No, I don't know that I've ever called in

1064
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:04,759
Speaker 3: a dough in late season. I often continue to call

1065
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 3: while I'm hunting. I was running this past Friday night

1066
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 3: when I was sitting with my nephew in Pennsylvania. Our

1067
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:13,399
Speaker 3: run is mostly over, but hey, there's still some dose

1068
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:16,840
Speaker 3: or some bucks that are interested in that. So I

1069
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 3: think it's fine to call anytime. Deer communicated a much

1070
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:25,360
Speaker 3: higher level through you know, sounds than many hunters realize.

1071
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 3: So I have never called in a dough late season.

1072
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:31,759
Speaker 3: I don't know that that's one of, you know, the

1073
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 3: most likely things to call in, but I wouldn't be

1074
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:37,239
Speaker 3: afraid to try it, you know, just because of the

1075
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:40,319
Speaker 3: amount of time that they do communicate. I think spot

1076
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:44,799
Speaker 3: and stock is totally fine. So I would be very

1077
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 3: careful because this time of the year in much of

1078
00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:49,360
Speaker 3: the white tails range, it gets loud to try to

1079
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 3: sneak around. It's either you know, krusty snow or we

1080
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:55,840
Speaker 3: have ice or whatever. So I would be very careful

1081
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:58,319
Speaker 3: along those lines. But I wouldn't rule that out. I'm

1082
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 3: thinking food first, and whatever I can do to get

1083
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 3: myself in a position to catch one on food or

1084
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 3: you know, or move into food as what I would do.

1085
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 3: I would not be afraid at all. And actually I

1086
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 3: would encourage people to set up outside that are different

1087
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:14,200
Speaker 3: stands that you have hunted most of the season in.

1088
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:17,480
Speaker 3: You've probably spooked some deer from those stands though, are

1089
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:20,360
Speaker 3: aware of where they had been, you know, chased, So

1090
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 3: get into other areas. Maybe try take a saddle, you know,

1091
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:25,040
Speaker 3: and hunt out of a saddle in a place you

1092
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 3: haven't hunted from this year. Maybe even just get out

1093
00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:29,640
Speaker 3: and stand by a tree or sit in an area.

1094
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:32,360
Speaker 3: Maybe you can't hunt as long as we would have earlier,

1095
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 3: so you know, maximize later in the morning catching deer

1096
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 3: leaving food or just before an evening, you know, but

1097
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 3: try spots that you haven't spooked deer from during the

1098
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:44,400
Speaker 3: course of the year, and you know, hit them from

1099
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:46,800
Speaker 3: a new area like that can can be a great suggestion.

1100
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:49,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, one of my favorite things to do

1101
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:51,680
Speaker 2: in the late season part of the year, when I'm

1102
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:55,920
Speaker 2: focused just on dos is I will take the anything

1103
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 2: is better than nothing approach. So i might not be

1104
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:01,360
Speaker 2: able to get out for a full morning hunt or

1105
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 2: a full evening hunt, but I've got from eight thirty

1106
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 2: to nine thirty in the morning after breakfast that could

1107
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:11,680
Speaker 2: just slip out maybe. So we've got these late firearm

1108
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:14,560
Speaker 2: seasons across many states these days for analyst deer. So

1109
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 2: I might say, well, I'll have breakfast of the family

1110
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 2: and then I'm going to go out for just an

1111
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 2: hour with the gun, and I'm gonna go walk the

1112
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 2: edges of some fields. And oftentimes that's not going to

1113
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 2: work when you're trying to hunt for one specific mature

1114
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 2: buck or something. But if you're trying to shoot any

1115
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 2: antelust deer, you might happen to catch that dough that's

1116
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 2: still feeding just before stepping into the woods on the

1117
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 2: edge of the bean field, or you might actually catch

1118
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:39,960
Speaker 2: one when you glass over the hilltop and see that

1119
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 2: there's one just inside of the cover about to bed down,

1120
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 2: and you can sneak within one hundred yards or whatever.

1121
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 2: I found those little kind of get it in while

1122
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 2: you can kind of opportunities that are outside of the

1123
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 2: box end up sometimes being possible when you're targeting antlers

1124
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:58,600
Speaker 2: deer and are really fun and when you're trying to

1125
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:01,520
Speaker 2: do whatever you can to fill an antlyst tag and

1126
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 2: do your management responsibility. It's a great way to make

1127
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 2: it happen when you maybe don't have all the time

1128
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:09,240
Speaker 2: in the world, or you're trying to fit it in

1129
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:13,840
Speaker 2: between different things. Those types of things are possible when

1130
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 2: it's this kind of hunt.

1131
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:17,400
Speaker 3: I agree. And you know the nice thing is is

1132
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:19,920
Speaker 3: once deer seasons are done and hunters have left the woods,

1133
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:22,440
Speaker 3: you know, after a few days or a week, you know,

1134
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:25,920
Speaker 3: deer often start resuming some normal movement patterns anyway, So

1135
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:28,800
Speaker 3: it's a great opportunity for that, you know where that

1136
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 3: may not have happened at the end of your rifle season,

1137
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:33,960
Speaker 3: but you know, hey, it can happen now. Another benefit

1138
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 3: of that is, man, you have a perfect opportunity to.

1139
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:38,960
Speaker 4: Do some postseason or at least Yeah, it's not postseason,

1140
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:42,680
Speaker 4: but late scouting to see where deer are moving, you know,

1141
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 4: once all the hunters will leave, and so yeah, you know,

1142
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:48,200
Speaker 4: I think that you get some information to help you

1143
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:51,120
Speaker 4: next year, as well as provide an opportunity to shoot

1144
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 4: an antlerus deer late.

1145
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:54,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, or maybe even a buck late if you still

1146
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 3: have your buck tag. Maybe you've already shot some antlous

1147
00:58:56,800 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 3: deer and you're trying to add another one or still

1148
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 3: can fill your buck teck.

1149
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a great time to try something new,

1150
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 2: that's for sure. What about the situation where somebody says, well,

1151
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:11,000
Speaker 2: you know, I already killed a buck this year, and

1152
00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:13,360
Speaker 2: my I only need one deer worth of meat in

1153
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:15,920
Speaker 2: the freezer. Or maybe they kill two deer and they

1154
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 2: don't need to they don't need any more meat. So

1155
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 2: this person who has a full freezer and they're saying, well, yeah,

1156
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:23,320
Speaker 2: I would do this, I would shoot some does, but

1157
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:25,000
Speaker 2: I just I don't need to. I don't need to

1158
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 2: eat it. What do you say to that person.

1159
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 3: I think there's a bunch of folks that fall in

1160
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:32,280
Speaker 3: that category, And I say, you know what, we have

1161
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:35,920
Speaker 3: a perfect opportunity to help feed others today in the

1162
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:39,680
Speaker 3: us about one in seven households or food insecure, you know,

1163
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:41,800
Speaker 3: I mean, and they don't have enough meat. This is

1164
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 3: a perfect way for a hunter to shoot a dough

1165
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:47,160
Speaker 3: which helps that deer herd, and then donate that to

1166
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:50,000
Speaker 3: a needy family. Maybe it's a somebody down the street,

1167
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:52,560
Speaker 3: maybe it's a friend or family member, can take it

1168
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:56,680
Speaker 3: to a soup kitchen. There are many venison donation processors

1169
00:59:57,080 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 3: across the country that can take that and get it

1170
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:02,880
Speaker 3: into the food bank hands, and so that that is

1171
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:05,160
Speaker 3: a great thing that makes the hunters look like a

1172
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:06,200
Speaker 3: champion of society.

1173
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:06,400
Speaker 2: You know.

1174
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 3: Society loves it that we're solving this antlust deer under

1175
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:12,480
Speaker 3: harvest problem at the same time feeding people. You know,

1176
01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:14,760
Speaker 3: and I get it, Mark, there's a there's a bottleneck

1177
01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:18,080
Speaker 3: today with fewer processors than there used to be. I

1178
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 3: see it in my state of Pennsylvania. I know it's

1179
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:22,680
Speaker 3: in your state of Michigan and elsewhere. We have met

1180
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:25,320
Speaker 3: with a lot of state wildlife agencies about this issue

1181
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:29,240
Speaker 3: and where are trying to develop a national map of

1182
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:33,560
Speaker 3: where venison processors are located. Pennsylvania is done, so we

1183
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:36,200
Speaker 3: started in my home state of Pa. We have that

1184
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:40,160
Speaker 3: map now and are starting to add other states to

1185
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:43,240
Speaker 3: provide a resource for hunters. Hey, here's a place you

1186
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:45,720
Speaker 3: can take a deer to have it, you know, processed.

1187
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:48,200
Speaker 3: We have on those listed on there. Hey, these ones

1188
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:51,200
Speaker 3: are involved with venison donation program, so it doesn't cost

1189
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 3: you anything to leave that. So I think this is

1190
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 3: going to be a tremendous resource for hunters because a

1191
01:00:57,160 --> 01:00:59,720
Speaker 3: lot just don't know where to go, you know, particularly

1192
01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:04,439
Speaker 3: we lose more venison processors. So we actually are working

1193
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:08,000
Speaker 3: on trying to get some federal funding to increase the

1194
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:11,080
Speaker 3: number of processors that are available to hunters, but then

1195
01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:14,640
Speaker 3: simultaneously making the current ones that are available, put it

1196
01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:17,200
Speaker 3: on a map to make at a resource for hunters

1197
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:19,600
Speaker 3: to see where they are. So if you, even if

1198
01:01:19,640 --> 01:01:22,240
Speaker 3: you're Freezer's full, I promise you there's somebody in your

1199
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 3: community that can use it. Get with an NDA branch

1200
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 3: in your area. We can help find a home for

1201
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:30,920
Speaker 3: or your state Wildlife agency or your state venison donation program.

1202
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 3: Somebody needs that, it needs it desperately, and as a

1203
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:35,920
Speaker 3: hunter man you can you can be the winner and

1204
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:37,520
Speaker 3: provide that for Yeah.

1205
01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:40,920
Speaker 2: So whether it be to get some information as you

1206
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:44,840
Speaker 2: just described regarding processors, or finding that deer diagnosis, the

1207
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:48,360
Speaker 2: dough harvest diagnosis one sheeter you mentioned, or connecting with

1208
01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:52,080
Speaker 2: an NDA branch, or becoming a member. All of these

1209
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:54,000
Speaker 2: things I know are over on the Deer the National

1210
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:57,760
Speaker 2: Deer Association's website. Can you tell folks where to find that,

1211
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:00,440
Speaker 2: how to get involved anything else you want to leave folks, let's.

1212
01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 3: Say, sure, you can go to Dearassociation dot com. We

1213
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:08,640
Speaker 3: provide all kinds of information there for for hunters. You know,

1214
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:13,560
Speaker 3: research information, hunting information, recipes, you know, the dough diagnosis,

1215
01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:15,960
Speaker 3: harvest and all kinds of other stuff. You know that

1216
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 3: that's all there for the take, and we encourage folks

1217
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:20,640
Speaker 3: to grab it. Sign up to be a member. There's

1218
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 3: there are different levels of membership. Our paid membership provides

1219
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:27,720
Speaker 3: all kinds of discounts to some awesome hunting industry items.

1220
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:30,600
Speaker 3: If you don't want to be a paid member, we

1221
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:32,960
Speaker 3: have a free membership as well, which gets you our

1222
01:02:33,040 --> 01:02:35,840
Speaker 3: weekly newsletter to keep you up to date with all

1223
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:38,960
Speaker 3: kinds of good information. So there's lots of ways to

1224
01:02:39,040 --> 01:02:41,200
Speaker 3: be able to get involved and uh, you know, if

1225
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 3: if you want to do something positive for the future

1226
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:46,200
Speaker 3: of our deer herds or our hunting heritage. Man being

1227
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:48,800
Speaker 3: being a National Dear Association member is the perfect place

1228
01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:49,240
Speaker 3: to start.

1229
01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:53,360
Speaker 2: Terrific Kip. As always, I really appreciate your time. Thanks

1230
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:55,000
Speaker 2: for chatting all right, good to see you.

1231
01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:57,000
Speaker 3: My friend's great day.

1232
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:04,280
Speaker 2: All right, and that's gonna do it for us. Thank

1233
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:07,560
Speaker 2: you for joining us, Thanks for being here. Hope you

1234
01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:10,520
Speaker 2: had a very merry Christmas. Happy holiday, is a wonderful

1235
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:14,200
Speaker 2: time with your friends and family. Best to luck out

1236
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:17,120
Speaker 2: there in the woods. Good luck filling some more dough tags.

1237
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:20,320
Speaker 2: Let's keep the keep that momentum moving. Let's get some

1238
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:23,080
Speaker 2: dos on the ground. Let's fill the freezers. Share it

1239
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:26,800
Speaker 2: with folks, make a positive difference for the environment. Keep

1240
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:30,360
Speaker 2: our ability to manage deer within the world of deer hunters,

1241
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:32,840
Speaker 2: rather than having some other entity. You have to do it.

1242
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:37,280
Speaker 2: We can control the situation, We can influence this situation.

1243
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:39,720
Speaker 2: We know the solution. We just got to get out

1244
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:43,160
Speaker 2: there and do it. So here's to having a great

1245
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:48,480
Speaker 2: antalyst season and until next time, stay wired to hunt.