WEBVTT - #561 Jason Flom with Rodney Roberts 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:05.040 America has two point two million people in prison. If 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:08.160 just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two thousand people. 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:11.040 That's a lot of people's lives destroyed. 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:18.440 If the system want to take you out of society, 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:21.800 they will do it no matter what laws they have 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:24.680 to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:25.800 they're breaking the lord. 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:30.320 Having to hear those people say that I was guilty 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:32.519 of a crime that I did not commit, and then 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:34.519 hear my family break down behind me and not be 0:00:34.560 --> 0:00:37.559 able to do anything about it. I can't describe the 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:38.600 crushing weight that was. 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:42.680 I'm not anti police, I'm just anti corruption. 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:46.840 A lot of times we look and we see something 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:49.160 happen to somebody, and that's the first thing we said. 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:50.720 That could never happen to me, but. 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:59.000 They can. This is wrongful conviction. 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:17.360 Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm. Today's guest 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:19.640 is the one and only Rodney Roberts. 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:24.479 Rodney Roberts was held for seventeen years for the crime 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:28.479 of raping a seventeen year old girl he had never met. 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:30.440 Rodney was advised by his public. 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:31.960 Defender to plead guilty. 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:35.560 He was told that the seventeen year old girl who 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:39.360 was right outside the courtroom had identified him, and if 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:41.360 he did not plead guilty, he was going to spend 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:42.600 the rest of his life in jail. 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:46.039 Rodney Roberts story a guilty plead, born a fear, a 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:49.000 maxed out sentence of seven years, and on the day 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:52.560 of release, not a ride home, but a surprise transfer 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:56.400 to civil commitment. It's a kind of imprisonment reserve for 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:59.800 just one type of offender. It has no set sentence, 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:03.640 no guarantee of release because the state deems them too 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:08.040 dangerous to release, and the state says it's a treatment program, 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:11.079 but the residents call it prison. He would be held 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:14.760 there as an encouragible violent sex offender for a full decade, 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:17.000 although it would later be proven that he had been 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:18.400 innocent from the start. 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:22.800 Rodney was finally released after seventeen years because he got 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:24.919 a lawyer who had DNA evidence. 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:28.240 Rodney, Welcome to the show. I'm glad you're here, Thank you. 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:29.119 I'm glad to be here. 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:34.359 So Rodney, this whole crazy saga of your life started 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:37.520 when you were seventeen, really right, yes, And up until 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:42.880 then your life had been what she's full, good, troubled, 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:44.440 what was your background. 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:46.280 Actually up in today. My life was very well. I 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:49.240 had both parents, mother and father, and the household work. 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:52.880 My mother she was hands on. She has a master's 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:56.720 degree in education. She believed in education in US learning. 0:02:57.000 --> 0:02:59.359 I have six sisters and four brothers, so we had 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:00.800 a house. 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:01.679 That's a whole football team. 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:04.320 I mean, yeah, I was never alone. I was always 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:07.400 well supervised. I had no trouble as a juvenile, no 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:10.840 juvenile cross ration or no trouble in that level. 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:12.720 I was a very good student. You know. 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:16.280 We went to private school from first to eighth grade. 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:21.200 So my life then was very positive, very If I 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:23.760 was poor, I didn't have no I wasn't even aware 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:26.120 of it because I was so well cared for by 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:28.360 my parents and my older brothers and sisters, and my 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:30.040 aunts and my uncles. 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:31.280 And the people in the community. 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:34.200 You know back then at that time, you know, you 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:37.160 had like five six mothers in the neighborhood. You were 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:39.920 watched by so many others that you could be disciplined 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:42.320 by the lady down the street and she'd bring you 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:44.720 to your mother and you and then get disciplined right 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:46.880 in front of her and by your mother. So it 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:49.120 was a different time than us, and the love in 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:50.720 the community and the household. 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:53.520 Was very strong, and which neighborhood was this well. 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:56.800 Originally we grew up in the Project area on Montgomery Street, 0:03:57.440 --> 0:03:59.960 which again was different at that time. And then we 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:03.000 moved to a one family house up in Wealsburg area 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:05.520 that's in North New Jersey, right across the street from 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:08.720 Walsburg Park, so I can run off my front porch right. 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:11.560 Upto a park up in Newark, New Jersey. 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:15.560 And it sounds really very sort of beautiful in a 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:19.080 certain way, very community oriented, nice, Like you said, a 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:22.120 huge family, had a huge extended family. And this is 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:24.080 why when I tell people, if you don't think this 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:26.800 can happen to you, this can happen to you, because 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:29.839 you didn't just paint a likely scenario for someone who's 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:32.680 going to end up really getting wrongly convicted twice and 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:35.919 serving over two decades in prison for crimes you didn't commit. 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:38.880 So let's get into that part of the story. Because 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:40.920 when you were a kid, you were kind of hanging 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:43.760 out with older guys, right, and then you kind of 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:46.880 got blindsided because you weren't really aware of what these 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:47.599 guys were up to. 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:51.279 I mean, the blind side particularly came from the fact 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:55.000 that I grew up in so much of a people 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:58.720 call out a sheltered household sheltered life, that a lot 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:01.000 of things go on the streets I really wasn't exposed to, 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:05.279 so me growing up, I would have to come in 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:07.200 the house early and things that natures. I thought I 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:09.320 was missing out on a lot of things. So I 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:11.160 would find a little ways to sneak out the house, 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:13.960 not really knowing what I would get myself into. And 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:16.800 because of that, I wasn't aware of what was out there. 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:20.799 I was more easy to be manipulated in that environment. 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:23.280 I'm smart, but I was stupid at the same time. 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:26.560 Well, I wouldn't say stupid, naive. That's a good word, naive. 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:28.039 It was a much better world. I like that word 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:30.560 better than stupid too. So like the older guys in 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:33.800 the community who so much like see young guys, they 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.680 see potentially in but they seen a potential in a 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:38.600 different way. They seen a potential in like a more 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:41.360 negative way. How could I sharpen this guy to help 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:44.480 me commit my crimes and help me get over And 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:48.000 I became under that radar, and when they approached me, 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:50.040 that they approached me like, hey man, we like the 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:51.560 where you're blend right in. 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:52.840 We just want you to do this. 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:55.359 Just look be a scout, be a lookout, just do 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:57.800 this and do minimum things things that I thought was 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:00.240 really cool. You know, hey, I'm in now, you know 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:03.440 I'm part of the streets now, thinking that I was 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:05.400 going to earn the street creed all the time I 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:09.159 was being played because of my naiveness, of my naivete, 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:11.800 I wasn't able to see what was really going on 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:12.400 with me. 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:14.880 But when you're a kid with that kind of flattery, 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:17.839 when an older person shows your respect and treats you 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:20.560 as they're equal, that can be very intoxicating and can 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:22.279 lead you down the road that you don't really know 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:24.600 you're going because you're blinded, right because you're thinking that 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:26.560 you're in with the cool squad or whatever. 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:29.920 So what happened, Well, what happened was, first I hid 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:31.839 this from my family. I wanted to add that part. 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:34.839 They didn't know what was going on. So I separated 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:37.599 myself from my protection. And that was a key point 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:40.839 in that point where this particular day they we were 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:42.800 out and they were saying, well, what was going on 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:44.960 out here on the avenue, which just Hakwon's Avenue, and 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:49.200 it was a busy street, very crime oriented, and I 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:51.240 came back and said, well, this person's doing this, and 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:53.599 this person's doing that, and that person is stopping picking 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:57.520 up this, and so in that course, they took action 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:01.400 from there and they went into and committed the crimes 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:05.320 that they committed in detail, which was robbery's, chicknapped, and 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:09.279 sexual related offenses. And me, because I played my role, 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:12.280 I was charged as a conspirator, not that I committed 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:15.560 any offenses, but because I acted in the capacity I 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:16.360 acted at. 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:18.040 That age, I was also charged. 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:21.760 I went to trial with these individuals and was found 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:26.000 guilty with these individuals and had to serve five years 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:31.440 alongside these individuals as a conspirator, and my record reflected 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:33.760 the same as their, even though I did not participate. 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:36.600 But as a conspirator, I was charged the same way, 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:39.720 and in that five years because of my age, I 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:42.600 was sent to like a youth facility, which is board 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:44.960 in town at that time, and once I got a 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:48.640 certain size and they transferred me to a larger facility 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:51.680 which was always stay prison, who in turn released me. 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:55.760 Once they released me in the early nineties ninety three, 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:58.480 I was home. At that point in my life, I 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:01.800 had decided that my whole life was changed. I was 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:05.240 never going back. I had got a good job. I 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:08.280 was looking at Quellsmen's Wear up in Woolbrook Mall. I 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:11.600 was an excellent salesman for them, paying me pretty good money. 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:14.920 Got a nice apartment up in Mountclear, New Jersey. Got 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:18.200 custody of my son, who I felt was the change 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:20.880 in my life as well, who had left before I 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:24.520 was inconcentrated. His mother was pregnant, so I wasn't even 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:27.600 there to witness his birth. So that was a big 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:30.160 part of me coming home as a change man to 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:33.160 take responsibility of my son. Got me a nice car 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:34.120 and everything, and I was. 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:34.840 Doing pretty well. 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:39.120 And as a result of doing that, I was picked 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:44.120 up and identified as someone who committed another offense, saying 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:46.640 I was a warrant was out for my arrest, saying 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:50.600 that you've been identified as a person who committed a 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:55.600 sexual related offense and a kidnapped, and against my adamant denial, like, listen, 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:58.120 it's not me. I didn't do this. I didn't even 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:01.320 do that before, but now they had me custody. Once 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:03.920 they arrested me and put me in custody. The threat 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:06.839 we can hold you and keep you here for the 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:08.640 rest of your life was real to me. They had 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:10.400 showed me that they had the power to do that already. 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:13.200 Oh yeah, you were in a very precarious situation. I mean, 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:15.400 seven years had gone by, your life was, as you said, 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:18.240 your life was on track. Things are looking good, and 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:21.760 then this crazy thing happens. And then a lot of 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:24.800 a lot of weird stuff goes on, I mean, a 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:29.120 lot of lying, a lot of cheating the system because 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:31.400 they really wanted to convict you. In your case, it 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:34.160 doesn't seem like they were really that interested in finding 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:37.240 out who raped this woman. They were interested in pending 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:39.480 it on you, right, just because they had you and 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:43.160 we've seen that part of this scenario happened before. That's 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:45.400 not the craziest thing about your story. It's crazy because 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:48.640 it happened to you, but it's not uncommon, unfortunately. But 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:51.600 things get really crazy as we go along. Well, we'll 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:52.679 take us through this, right. 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:53.760 Well, once I. 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:57.400 Was in custody, it was really my public defender, as 0:09:57.440 --> 0:09:59.840 they say in jail house turner and my public pretender 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:03.680 who came and said to me in this theatrical way, 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:06.360 that he had convinced me that the state had this 0:10:06.480 --> 0:10:09.560 over women evidence, that the witness was outside by the way, 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:12.040 this is my third turned public defender within a four 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:15.640 month period, and that the witness seeing my photo and 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:19.640 start crying uncontrollably, and they had pinpointed me in that 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:21.199 if I was going to go to trial and be 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:23.959 in jail for the rest of my life. Now at 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:27.240 that point, I felt so overwhelmed backtracking, which just happened 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:29.959 to me earlier at seventeen. They said that, well, look 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:32.360 and we'll offer you a plea agreement. We're gonna give 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:34.439 you a seven year term and you're gonna do two 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:36.920 years and you'll come home. If you just plead guilty, 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:39.720 you were gonna dismiss the sexual lady defense and you 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:42.440 were downgrade the kidnapped to a second degree and put 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:45.320 on record no one got hurt. And so in my 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:47.360 mind I thought I would saved my life because I 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:50.480 had just left my son out there and I didn't 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:53.160 know what was going on. I was separated from my family. 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:56.760 So I took the plea agreement and I answered the 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:59.560 plead to a crime I didn't commit, and doing that, 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:01.960 I felt like I portrayed myself in a way that 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:04.800 it took me years to get over. And the process 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:07.480 of that, I was sent down to state prison to 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:11.439 do the seven year term because I went to parole, 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:14.920 and parole actually was saying that, oh, listen, you're here 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:17.600 not just for the kidnap, but we're here for what 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:19.880 the police reports are saying, for the sexual offense. And 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:21.760 I was like, no, I didn't do any of that. 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:24.600 I actually I didn't do any of it. At this point, 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:26.280 I'm like, I'm I didn't do any I just played 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:30.080 guilty thinking trying to save my life. Well, that sent 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:32.400 them in a spiral like I was in denial, and 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:35.240 then I showed no remorse, which you know, I could 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:37.240 show remorse for something I did not do, and that's 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:39.679 what I was trying to explain to them. But as 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:42.679 a result of that, I was denied parole maybe three times, 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:43.440 and then I. 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:44.599 Was maxed out. 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:47.319 And in being maxed out at me, I served a 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:49.600 full seven year terms as opposed to two year term. 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:52.720 But before you are released from prison, you were sent 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:56.360 to these parole classes. So I went to the parole 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:58.880 classes and the pre release classes, which I was did 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:02.040 stellar and because I'm thinking I'm going home. And so 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:05.719 on the day of my release, I was brought out 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:08.360 to the front like every other prisoner who was schedul 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:12.160 to be released that day lined up, but instead when 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:15.800 they called everyone name, they didn't call minds. So they 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:18.080 had released all of them and left me standing there 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:20.520 in the day of the day, I had maxed out, 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:22.480 means that I had no more time left to do. 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:23.440 But so you're there. 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:26.120 You have your possessions, whatever your possessions were that you 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:27.800 had in prison with you, you had them with you. Right, 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:31.320 You're ready to go home, start your life again, see 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:35.120 your son, re establish your relationships with your family, the 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:35.559 whole thing. 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:38.000 They were actually in the parking lot waiting to take 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:39.440 me home and go get something. 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:42.120 Yeah, we had all ranged, and I mean I had, 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:46.200 you know, grown until more after seven years from this 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:49.560 experience in a degree where I felt like, now my 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.200 life is really going to be take control of my 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:55.679 life and really do it right. But as opposed to 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:59.400 being released, I was held and transferred to what New 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:02.720 Jersey call to a special treatment on this because I 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:07.240 refused to pleat acknowledgeablete guilty or admit my role in 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:10.280 the sexual related offense. New Jersey had passed a law 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:13.839 called the Sexually Found Predat Act, which said that if 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:16.040 they felt like a person was still dangerous, that they 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:19.040 could not be released. So they civilly committed me under 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:22.600 that pretense. So I was taking to a facility civil 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:26.199 commitment facility which is like a civil commitment like traditional However, 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:29.040 this was like a new hybrid facility that New Jersey 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:31.720 had came up with where they combined the Apartment Correction 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:35.440 and Apartment Human Service to their Department in Service there 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:39.079 would provide treatment to those that were committed. And I 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:40.720 was held there for ten years. 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:44.120 It's not real. I mean ten years on top. It's 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:44.679 like it. 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:47.280 I think most people are listening and going, wait, wait, 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:49.400 but that doesn't make sense. You can't serve your sentence 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:51.800 and then serve another sentence that you didn't even have, 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:54.840 which is longer by fifty percent than your original sentence 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:57.280 was in the first place. And you know it's so crazy, right, 0:13:57.520 --> 0:13:59.680 you plead innocent, they send you to prison, and you 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:00.920 play guilty to send you home. 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:02.679 Right, It's so backwards. 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:05.400 It's like Alice in Wonderland, but in your case, that's 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:08.760 literally what happened. They wanted you to acknowledge your guilt. 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:11.080 I mean, they pulled the rug out from under you 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:13.920 so many different times, in so many different ways. By now, right, 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:17.080 they had lied to you about the witness who actually 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:20.400 had not identified you and never did identify you, right, 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:22.280 and they told you that she did. You know, when 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:25.040 you talk about three public defenders in four months, I mean, 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:29.120 it's not hard for anyone to imagine how little your 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:32.800 public defender must have known about your case when they 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:35.760 keep switching them out like this. I mean, there's just 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.000 not that much time to get to understand what's going on. 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:40.680 And to be fair, these people are, even the best 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:43.200 ones of them, are juggling a lot of cases because 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:44.920 that's just the way the system works. He or she 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:46.560 might have been working one hundred cases at that. 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:48.760 Time, and that came out that down the line to 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:51.880 try and admit it that when he had like forty 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:54.720 cases clients in a bullpen, which is a holding area 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:57.080 for prisoners, he had an old woman case a little 0:14:57.080 --> 0:14:59.560 and like forty were there, and by the time he 0:14:59.600 --> 0:14:59.960 got the. 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:01.520 He was in a cilly lawn mode. 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:04.160 But in the process of being civilly committed that that 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:08.800 whole experience within itself was a crazy experience because it 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.240 is a experience that you could be civilly committed without 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:15.240 a conviction. Now you're not convicted. Everything is done through 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:18.640 medical terms. What I'm saying, you have a psychiatrist and 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:21.200 a psychologist who come in and say I read the 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:23.640 record and we think his person is guilty, and you know, 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:26.400 and then that becomes you're guilty, and that becomes the 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:27.160 reason they hold you. 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:30.120 There's no justice there whatsoever. There's no trial. 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:32.600 There's no way they give you a hearing that the 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:36.120 attorney general totally dictates, so there's no way to challenge 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:39.520 the whole process of it. Because the psychiatrists work for 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:42.040 the state. They come in and write whatever the attorney 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:44.560 general wants them to say. In my particular case, that 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:47.640 was one beneficial point feature that I always like to 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:50.120 add was the state centers psychiatrists and. 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:50.800 To interview me. 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:54.120 And as a result of his interview, he changed his mind, 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.960 became my witness and testified that I should have been released. 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:01.600 As a result, they diminished He was later released, but 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:05.560 he jumped ship. But in that process where they still 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:09.400 saw me an attorney. Another public defender named John Dewar, 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:13.080 who I aw utmost respectful in their office. And I 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:14.920 explained to him, I said, listen. This was in two 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:17.640 thousand and four. I said, listen, I played guilty to 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:19.880 a crime I commit. I listen, I shouldn't be here. 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:22.040 And I explained to him what happened. I said, listen, 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:24.960 I played guilty because I was far my life as 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:27.320 been addressing my life in jail. I wanted to be 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:29.760 home with my family. He said, listen, I'm gonna take 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:32.520 a chance with you. So what he did was him 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:35.720 and his investigator they went and found the victim, and 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:38.520 they went interview her, and they showed her my photo 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:40.840 and she asked, well, did you know this guy. I 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:43.160 never seen this guy there in my life. They were like, 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:45.200 wait a minute, this guy's locked up for a crime 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:47.600 against you. She didn't even know anyone was locked up, 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:50.960 particularly me. She said, I didn't never identify him. That 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:54.480 sent my case into a spiral. As a result of that, 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:57.200 she gave a sworn statement. We thought that that was 0:16:57.240 --> 0:17:00.040 gonna be enough to have me release from civil. 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:02.200 It would seem like that would be a novel. I'm 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:04.960 sure again everyone listening is going, okay, well that's it 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:07.480 go home. You're done now, But that's not the way 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:08.840 it works. But I want to make one more point 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:10.240 before we get into the next part of the story, 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:14.080 which is that ninety five percent of state felony convictions 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:18.680 are a result of guilty. Please right, because almost anyone 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:22.520 faced with your situation, especially someone who'd already had experience 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:24.800 of how heavy the criminal justice system can come down 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:28.200 on you, given a choice between what they were telling 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:29.680 you was going to be two years or twenty eight 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:32.600 months or whatever it was, or the rest of your life. 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:35.920 I mean, try to walk a mile of those shoes, right. 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:37.600 I mean, that's a horrible statistic. 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:40.520 It's a horrible statistic. And like I said, it may 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:42.800 not seem like it affects you, but someday it could. 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:44.440 I mean, it could affect you or someone you love. 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:46.879 Anyone who's listening right now, you know your chance with 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:50.440 the public defender who I mean, the ODJIT two stacked. 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:54.520 They formed would be a trifecta judge to prosecutor and 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:59.320 public defender. In my mind, a collaboration to hurse me 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:02.040 into this plea agreement to make it as if that 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:05.640 was my only result to save my life. 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:20.760 But here's what's so crazy about your case, Rannie, is that, 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:24.760 first of all, start with you were innocent. Second of all, 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:27.920 the idea that your own attorney says, we're going to 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:31.280 get two years, but you end up getting seven years, 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:34.720 but then they turned that into seventeen years. How can 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:38.760 that be that your own people let you down to 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:41.119 that extent. The system too, but your own people. And 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:42.960 then the other thing, Like I said that, I really 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:44.600 want to highlight because we haven't covered this on the 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:46.560 show yet, but it's a reality, and it's a crazy 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:48.800 reality that most people don't focus on. It's this idea 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:52.040 of civil commitment and that sounds civil commitment, sounds like 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:53.520 a relatively benign term. 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:55.600 But it was hell in there, and I heard you 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:57.119 talk about it. It was horrible in it. 0:18:57.240 --> 0:19:00.280 I mean it was horrible in the fact that I 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:03.679 was exposed to an element that I had never had 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:06.080 been exposed to before a mindset. 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:07.800 The danger is real. 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:10.399 There's a need to protect the most warlomable members of 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:11.040 our society. 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:11.560