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Speaker 1: America has two point two million people in prison. If

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Speaker 1: just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two thousand people.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot of people's lives destroyed.

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Speaker 2: If the system want to take you out of society,

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Speaker 2: they will do it no matter what laws they have

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Speaker 2: to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but

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Speaker 2: they're breaking the lord.

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Speaker 1: Having to hear those people say that I was guilty

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Speaker 1: of a crime that I did not commit, and then

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Speaker 1: hear my family break down behind me and not be

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Speaker 1: able to do anything about it. I can't describe the

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Speaker 1: crushing weight that was.

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Speaker 3: I'm not anti police, I'm just anti corruption.

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Speaker 2: A lot of times we look and we see something

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Speaker 2: happen to somebody, and that's the first thing we said.

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Speaker 2: That could never happen to me, but.

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Speaker 4: They can. This is wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 5: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm. Today's guest

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Speaker 5: is the one and only Rodney Roberts.

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Speaker 6: Rodney Roberts was held for seventeen years for the crime

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Speaker 6: of raping a seventeen year old girl he had never met.

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Speaker 6: Rodney was advised by his public.

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Speaker 4: Defender to plead guilty.

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Speaker 6: He was told that the seventeen year old girl who

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Speaker 6: was right outside the courtroom had identified him, and if

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Speaker 6: he did not plead guilty, he was going to spend

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Speaker 6: the rest of his life in jail.

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Speaker 7: Rodney Roberts story a guilty plead, born a fear, a

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Speaker 7: maxed out sentence of seven years, and on the day

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Speaker 7: of release, not a ride home, but a surprise transfer

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Speaker 7: to civil commitment. It's a kind of imprisonment reserve for

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Speaker 7: just one type of offender. It has no set sentence,

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Speaker 7: no guarantee of release because the state deems them too

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Speaker 7: dangerous to release, and the state says it's a treatment program,

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Speaker 7: but the residents call it prison. He would be held

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Speaker 7: there as an encouragible violent sex offender for a full decade,

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Speaker 7: although it would later be proven that he had been

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Speaker 7: innocent from the start.

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Speaker 6: Rodney was finally released after seventeen years because he got

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Speaker 6: a lawyer who had DNA evidence.

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Speaker 4: Rodney, Welcome to the show. I'm glad you're here, Thank you.

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Speaker 4: I'm glad to be here.

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Speaker 5: So Rodney, this whole crazy saga of your life started

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Speaker 5: when you were seventeen, really right, yes, And up until

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Speaker 5: then your life had been what she's full, good, troubled,

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Speaker 5: what was your background.

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Speaker 3: Actually up in today. My life was very well. I

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Speaker 3: had both parents, mother and father, and the household work.

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Speaker 3: My mother she was hands on. She has a master's

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Speaker 3: degree in education. She believed in education in US learning.

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Speaker 3: I have six sisters and four brothers, so we had

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Speaker 3: a house.

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Speaker 4: That's a whole football team.

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Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, I was never alone. I was always

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Speaker 3: well supervised. I had no trouble as a juvenile, no

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Speaker 3: juvenile cross ration or no trouble in that level.

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Speaker 4: I was a very good student. You know.

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Speaker 3: We went to private school from first to eighth grade.

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Speaker 3: So my life then was very positive, very If I

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Speaker 3: was poor, I didn't have no I wasn't even aware

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Speaker 3: of it because I was so well cared for by

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Speaker 3: my parents and my older brothers and sisters, and my

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Speaker 3: aunts and my uncles.

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Speaker 4: And the people in the community.

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Speaker 3: You know back then at that time, you know, you

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Speaker 3: had like five six mothers in the neighborhood. You were

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Speaker 3: watched by so many others that you could be disciplined

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Speaker 3: by the lady down the street and she'd bring you

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Speaker 3: to your mother and you and then get disciplined right

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Speaker 3: in front of her and by your mother. So it

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Speaker 3: was a different time than us, and the love in

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Speaker 3: the community and the household.

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Speaker 4: Was very strong, and which neighborhood was this well.

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Speaker 3: Originally we grew up in the Project area on Montgomery Street,

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Speaker 3: which again was different at that time. And then we

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Speaker 3: moved to a one family house up in Wealsburg area

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Speaker 3: that's in North New Jersey, right across the street from

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Speaker 3: Walsburg Park, so I can run off my front porch right.

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Speaker 4: Upto a park up in Newark, New Jersey.

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Speaker 5: And it sounds really very sort of beautiful in a

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Speaker 5: certain way, very community oriented, nice, Like you said, a

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Speaker 5: huge family, had a huge extended family. And this is

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Speaker 5: why when I tell people, if you don't think this

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Speaker 5: can happen to you, this can happen to you, because

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Speaker 5: you didn't just paint a likely scenario for someone who's

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Speaker 5: going to end up really getting wrongly convicted twice and

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Speaker 5: serving over two decades in prison for crimes you didn't commit.

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Speaker 5: So let's get into that part of the story. Because

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Speaker 5: when you were a kid, you were kind of hanging

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Speaker 5: out with older guys, right, and then you kind of

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Speaker 5: got blindsided because you weren't really aware of what these

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Speaker 5: guys were up to.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the blind side particularly came from the fact

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Speaker 3: that I grew up in so much of a people

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Speaker 3: call out a sheltered household sheltered life, that a lot

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Speaker 3: of things go on the streets I really wasn't exposed to,

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Speaker 3: so me growing up, I would have to come in

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Speaker 3: the house early and things that natures. I thought I

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Speaker 3: was missing out on a lot of things. So I

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Speaker 3: would find a little ways to sneak out the house,

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Speaker 3: not really knowing what I would get myself into. And

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Speaker 3: because of that, I wasn't aware of what was out there.

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Speaker 3: I was more easy to be manipulated in that environment.

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Speaker 3: I'm smart, but I was stupid at the same time.

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Speaker 4: Well, I wouldn't say stupid, naive. That's a good word, naive.

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Speaker 3: It was a much better world. I like that word

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Speaker 3: better than stupid too. So like the older guys in

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Speaker 3: the community who so much like see young guys, they

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Speaker 3: see potentially in but they seen a potential in a

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Speaker 3: different way. They seen a potential in like a more

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Speaker 3: negative way. How could I sharpen this guy to help

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Speaker 3: me commit my crimes and help me get over And

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Speaker 3: I became under that radar, and when they approached me,

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Speaker 3: that they approached me like, hey man, we like the

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Speaker 3: where you're blend right in.

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Speaker 4: We just want you to do this.

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Speaker 3: Just look be a scout, be a lookout, just do

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Speaker 3: this and do minimum things things that I thought was

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Speaker 3: really cool. You know, hey, I'm in now, you know

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Speaker 3: I'm part of the streets now, thinking that I was

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Speaker 3: going to earn the street creed all the time I

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Speaker 3: was being played because of my naiveness, of my naivete,

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Speaker 3: I wasn't able to see what was really going on

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Speaker 3: with me.

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Speaker 5: But when you're a kid with that kind of flattery,

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Speaker 5: when an older person shows your respect and treats you

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Speaker 5: as they're equal, that can be very intoxicating and can

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Speaker 5: lead you down the road that you don't really know

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Speaker 5: you're going because you're blinded, right because you're thinking that

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Speaker 5: you're in with the cool squad or whatever.

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Speaker 3: So what happened, Well, what happened was, first I hid

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Speaker 3: this from my family. I wanted to add that part.

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Speaker 3: They didn't know what was going on. So I separated

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Speaker 3: myself from my protection. And that was a key point

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Speaker 3: in that point where this particular day they we were

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Speaker 3: out and they were saying, well, what was going on

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Speaker 3: out here on the avenue, which just Hakwon's Avenue, and

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Speaker 3: it was a busy street, very crime oriented, and I

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Speaker 3: came back and said, well, this person's doing this, and

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Speaker 3: this person's doing that, and that person is stopping picking

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Speaker 3: up this, and so in that course, they took action

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Speaker 3: from there and they went into and committed the crimes

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Speaker 3: that they committed in detail, which was robbery's, chicknapped, and

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Speaker 3: sexual related offenses. And me, because I played my role,

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Speaker 3: I was charged as a conspirator, not that I committed

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Speaker 3: any offenses, but because I acted in the capacity I

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Speaker 3: acted at.

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Speaker 4: That age, I was also charged.

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Speaker 3: I went to trial with these individuals and was found

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Speaker 3: guilty with these individuals and had to serve five years

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Speaker 3: alongside these individuals as a conspirator, and my record reflected

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Speaker 3: the same as their, even though I did not participate.

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Speaker 3: But as a conspirator, I was charged the same way,

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Speaker 3: and in that five years because of my age, I

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Speaker 3: was sent to like a youth facility, which is board

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Speaker 3: in town at that time, and once I got a

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Speaker 3: certain size and they transferred me to a larger facility

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Speaker 3: which was always stay prison, who in turn released me.

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Speaker 3: Once they released me in the early nineties ninety three,

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Speaker 3: I was home. At that point in my life, I

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Speaker 3: had decided that my whole life was changed. I was

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Speaker 3: never going back. I had got a good job. I

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Speaker 3: was looking at Quellsmen's Wear up in Woolbrook Mall. I

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Speaker 3: was an excellent salesman for them, paying me pretty good money.

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Speaker 3: Got a nice apartment up in Mountclear, New Jersey. Got

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Speaker 3: custody of my son, who I felt was the change

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Speaker 3: in my life as well, who had left before I

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Speaker 3: was inconcentrated. His mother was pregnant, so I wasn't even

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Speaker 3: there to witness his birth. So that was a big

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Speaker 3: part of me coming home as a change man to

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Speaker 3: take responsibility of my son. Got me a nice car

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Speaker 3: and everything, and I was.

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Speaker 4: Doing pretty well.

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Speaker 3: And as a result of doing that, I was picked

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Speaker 3: up and identified as someone who committed another offense, saying

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Speaker 3: I was a warrant was out for my arrest, saying

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Speaker 3: that you've been identified as a person who committed a

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Speaker 3: sexual related offense and a kidnapped, and against my adamant denial, like, listen,

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Speaker 3: it's not me. I didn't do this. I didn't even

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Speaker 3: do that before, but now they had me custody. Once

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Speaker 3: they arrested me and put me in custody. The threat

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Speaker 3: we can hold you and keep you here for the

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Speaker 3: rest of your life was real to me. They had

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Speaker 3: showed me that they had the power to do that already.

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, you were in a very precarious situation. I mean,

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Speaker 5: seven years had gone by, your life was, as you said,

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Speaker 5: your life was on track. Things are looking good, and

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Speaker 5: then this crazy thing happens. And then a lot of

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Speaker 5: a lot of weird stuff goes on, I mean, a

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Speaker 5: lot of lying, a lot of cheating the system because

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Speaker 5: they really wanted to convict you. In your case, it

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Speaker 5: doesn't seem like they were really that interested in finding

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Speaker 5: out who raped this woman. They were interested in pending

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Speaker 5: it on you, right, just because they had you and

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Speaker 5: we've seen that part of this scenario happened before. That's

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Speaker 5: not the craziest thing about your story. It's crazy because

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Speaker 5: it happened to you, but it's not uncommon, unfortunately. But

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Speaker 5: things get really crazy as we go along. Well, we'll

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Speaker 5: take us through this, right.

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Speaker 4: Well, once I.

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Speaker 3: Was in custody, it was really my public defender, as

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Speaker 3: they say in jail house turner and my public pretender

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Speaker 3: who came and said to me in this theatrical way,

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Speaker 3: that he had convinced me that the state had this

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Speaker 3: over women evidence, that the witness was outside by the way,

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Speaker 3: this is my third turned public defender within a four

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Speaker 3: month period, and that the witness seeing my photo and

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Speaker 3: start crying uncontrollably, and they had pinpointed me in that

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Speaker 3: if I was going to go to trial and be

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Speaker 3: in jail for the rest of my life. Now at

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Speaker 3: that point, I felt so overwhelmed backtracking, which just happened

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Speaker 3: to me earlier at seventeen. They said that, well, look

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Speaker 3: and we'll offer you a plea agreement. We're gonna give

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Speaker 3: you a seven year term and you're gonna do two

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Speaker 3: years and you'll come home. If you just plead guilty,

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Speaker 3: you were gonna dismiss the sexual lady defense and you

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Speaker 3: were downgrade the kidnapped to a second degree and put

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Speaker 3: on record no one got hurt. And so in my

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Speaker 3: mind I thought I would saved my life because I

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Speaker 3: had just left my son out there and I didn't

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Speaker 3: know what was going on. I was separated from my family.

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Speaker 3: So I took the plea agreement and I answered the

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Speaker 3: plead to a crime I didn't commit, and doing that,

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Speaker 3: I felt like I portrayed myself in a way that

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Speaker 3: it took me years to get over. And the process

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Speaker 3: of that, I was sent down to state prison to

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Speaker 3: do the seven year term because I went to parole,

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Speaker 3: and parole actually was saying that, oh, listen, you're here

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Speaker 3: not just for the kidnap, but we're here for what

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Speaker 3: the police reports are saying, for the sexual offense. And

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Speaker 3: I was like, no, I didn't do any of that.

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Speaker 3: I actually I didn't do any of it. At this point,

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Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm I didn't do any I just played

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Speaker 3: guilty thinking trying to save my life. Well, that sent

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Speaker 3: them in a spiral like I was in denial, and

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Speaker 3: then I showed no remorse, which you know, I could

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Speaker 3: show remorse for something I did not do, and that's

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Speaker 3: what I was trying to explain to them. But as

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Speaker 3: a result of that, I was denied parole maybe three times,

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Speaker 3: and then I.

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Speaker 4: Was maxed out.

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Speaker 3: And in being maxed out at me, I served a

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Speaker 3: full seven year terms as opposed to two year term.

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Speaker 3: But before you are released from prison, you were sent

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Speaker 3: to these parole classes. So I went to the parole

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Speaker 3: classes and the pre release classes, which I was did

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Speaker 3: stellar and because I'm thinking I'm going home. And so

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Speaker 3: on the day of my release, I was brought out

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Speaker 3: to the front like every other prisoner who was schedul

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Speaker 3: to be released that day lined up, but instead when

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Speaker 3: they called everyone name, they didn't call minds. So they

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Speaker 3: had released all of them and left me standing there

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Speaker 3: in the day of the day, I had maxed out,

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Speaker 3: means that I had no more time left to do.

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Speaker 4: But so you're there.

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Speaker 5: You have your possessions, whatever your possessions were that you

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Speaker 5: had in prison with you, you had them with you. Right,

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Speaker 5: You're ready to go home, start your life again, see

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Speaker 5: your son, re establish your relationships with your family, the

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Speaker 5: whole thing.

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Speaker 4: They were actually in the parking lot waiting to take

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Speaker 4: me home and go get something.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we had all ranged, and I mean I had,

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Speaker 3: you know, grown until more after seven years from this

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Speaker 3: experience in a degree where I felt like, now my

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Speaker 3: life is really going to be take control of my

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Speaker 3: life and really do it right. But as opposed to

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Speaker 3: being released, I was held and transferred to what New

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Speaker 3: Jersey call to a special treatment on this because I

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Speaker 3: refused to pleat acknowledgeablete guilty or admit my role in

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Speaker 3: the sexual related offense. New Jersey had passed a law

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Speaker 3: called the Sexually Found Predat Act, which said that if

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Speaker 3: they felt like a person was still dangerous, that they

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Speaker 3: could not be released. So they civilly committed me under

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Speaker 3: that pretense. So I was taking to a facility civil

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Speaker 3: commitment facility which is like a civil commitment like traditional However,

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Speaker 3: this was like a new hybrid facility that New Jersey

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Speaker 3: had came up with where they combined the Apartment Correction

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Speaker 3: and Apartment Human Service to their Department in Service there

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Speaker 3: would provide treatment to those that were committed. And I

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Speaker 3: was held there for ten years.

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Speaker 4: It's not real. I mean ten years on top. It's

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Speaker 4: like it.

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Speaker 5: I think most people are listening and going, wait, wait,

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Speaker 5: but that doesn't make sense. You can't serve your sentence

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Speaker 5: and then serve another sentence that you didn't even have,

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Speaker 5: which is longer by fifty percent than your original sentence

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Speaker 5: was in the first place. And you know it's so crazy, right,

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Speaker 5: you plead innocent, they send you to prison, and you

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Speaker 5: play guilty to send you home.

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Speaker 4: Right, It's so backwards.

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Speaker 5: It's like Alice in Wonderland, but in your case, that's

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Speaker 5: literally what happened. They wanted you to acknowledge your guilt.

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Speaker 5: I mean, they pulled the rug out from under you

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Speaker 5: so many different times, in so many different ways. By now, right,

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Speaker 5: they had lied to you about the witness who actually

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Speaker 5: had not identified you and never did identify you, right,

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Speaker 5: and they told you that she did. You know, when

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Speaker 5: you talk about three public defenders in four months, I mean,

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Speaker 5: it's not hard for anyone to imagine how little your

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Speaker 5: public defender must have known about your case when they

302
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Speaker 5: keep switching them out like this. I mean, there's just

303
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Speaker 5: not that much time to get to understand what's going on.

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Speaker 5: And to be fair, these people are, even the best

305
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Speaker 5: ones of them, are juggling a lot of cases because

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Speaker 5: that's just the way the system works. He or she

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Speaker 5: might have been working one hundred cases at that.

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Speaker 3: Time, and that came out that down the line to

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Speaker 3: try and admit it that when he had like forty

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Speaker 3: cases clients in a bullpen, which is a holding area

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Speaker 3: for prisoners, he had an old woman case a little

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Speaker 3: and like forty were there, and by the time he

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Speaker 3: got the.

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Speaker 4: He was in a cilly lawn mode.

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Speaker 3: But in the process of being civilly committed that that

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Speaker 3: whole experience within itself was a crazy experience because it

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Speaker 3: is a experience that you could be civilly committed without

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Speaker 3: a conviction. Now you're not convicted. Everything is done through

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Speaker 3: medical terms. What I'm saying, you have a psychiatrist and

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Speaker 3: a psychologist who come in and say I read the

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Speaker 3: record and we think his person is guilty, and you know,

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Speaker 3: and then that becomes you're guilty, and that becomes the

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Speaker 3: reason they hold you.

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Speaker 4: There's no justice there whatsoever. There's no trial.

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Speaker 3: There's no way they give you a hearing that the

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Speaker 3: attorney general totally dictates, so there's no way to challenge

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Speaker 3: the whole process of it. Because the psychiatrists work for

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Speaker 3: the state. They come in and write whatever the attorney

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Speaker 3: general wants them to say. In my particular case, that

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Speaker 3: was one beneficial point feature that I always like to

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Speaker 3: add was the state centers psychiatrists and.

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Speaker 4: To interview me.

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Speaker 3: And as a result of his interview, he changed his mind,

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Speaker 3: became my witness and testified that I should have been released.

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Speaker 3: As a result, they diminished He was later released, but

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Speaker 3: he jumped ship. But in that process where they still

337
00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:09,400
Speaker 3: saw me an attorney. Another public defender named John Dewar,

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Speaker 3: who I aw utmost respectful in their office. And I

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Speaker 3: explained to him, I said, listen. This was in two

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Speaker 3: thousand and four. I said, listen, I played guilty to

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Speaker 3: a crime I commit. I listen, I shouldn't be here.

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Speaker 3: And I explained to him what happened. I said, listen,

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Speaker 3: I played guilty because I was far my life as

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Speaker 3: been addressing my life in jail. I wanted to be

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Speaker 3: home with my family. He said, listen, I'm gonna take

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Speaker 3: a chance with you. So what he did was him

347
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Speaker 3: and his investigator they went and found the victim, and

348
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Speaker 3: they went interview her, and they showed her my photo

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Speaker 3: and she asked, well, did you know this guy. I

350
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Speaker 3: never seen this guy there in my life. They were like,

351
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Speaker 3: wait a minute, this guy's locked up for a crime

352
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Speaker 3: against you. She didn't even know anyone was locked up,

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Speaker 3: particularly me. She said, I didn't never identify him. That

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Speaker 3: sent my case into a spiral. As a result of that,

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Speaker 3: she gave a sworn statement. We thought that that was

356
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Speaker 3: gonna be enough to have me release from civil.

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Speaker 5: It would seem like that would be a novel. I'm

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Speaker 5: sure again everyone listening is going, okay, well that's it

359
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Speaker 5: go home. You're done now, But that's not the way

360
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Speaker 5: it works. But I want to make one more point

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Speaker 5: before we get into the next part of the story,

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Speaker 5: which is that ninety five percent of state felony convictions

363
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Speaker 5: are a result of guilty. Please right, because almost anyone

364
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Speaker 5: faced with your situation, especially someone who'd already had experience

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Speaker 5: of how heavy the criminal justice system can come down

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Speaker 5: on you, given a choice between what they were telling

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Speaker 5: you was going to be two years or twenty eight

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Speaker 5: months or whatever it was, or the rest of your life.

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Speaker 5: I mean, try to walk a mile of those shoes, right.

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Speaker 4: I mean, that's a horrible statistic.

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Speaker 5: It's a horrible statistic. And like I said, it may

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Speaker 5: not seem like it affects you, but someday it could.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it could affect you or someone you love.

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Speaker 5: Anyone who's listening right now, you know your chance with

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Speaker 5: the public defender who I mean, the ODJIT two stacked.

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Speaker 3: They formed would be a trifecta judge to prosecutor and

377
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Speaker 3: public defender. In my mind, a collaboration to hurse me

378
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Speaker 3: into this plea agreement to make it as if that

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Speaker 3: was my only result to save my life.

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Speaker 5: But here's what's so crazy about your case, Rannie, is that,

381
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Speaker 5: first of all, start with you were innocent. Second of all,

382
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Speaker 5: the idea that your own attorney says, we're going to

383
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Speaker 5: get two years, but you end up getting seven years,

384
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Speaker 5: but then they turned that into seventeen years. How can

385
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Speaker 5: that be that your own people let you down to

386
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Speaker 5: that extent. The system too, but your own people. And

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Speaker 5: then the other thing, Like I said that, I really

388
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Speaker 5: want to highlight because we haven't covered this on the

389
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Speaker 5: show yet, but it's a reality, and it's a crazy

390
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Speaker 5: reality that most people don't focus on. It's this idea

391
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Speaker 5: of civil commitment and that sounds civil commitment, sounds like

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Speaker 5: a relatively benign term.

393
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Speaker 4: But it was hell in there, and I heard you

394
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Speaker 4: talk about it. It was horrible in it.

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Speaker 3: I mean it was horrible in the fact that I

396
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Speaker 3: was exposed to an element that I had never had

397
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Speaker 3: been exposed to before a mindset.

398
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Speaker 4: The danger is real.

399
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Speaker 3: There's a need to protect the most warlomable members of

400
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Speaker 3: our society.

401
00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:11,560
Speaker 4: That's real.

402
00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:16,600
Speaker 3: However, the process of selection is flawed. Now when I

403
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:18,480
Speaker 3: say the flaw, if they see that you don't fit

404
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,720
Speaker 3: that criteria, you don't have what they call a present danger.

405
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,919
Speaker 3: You don't have the mental incapacity or the repetiti or

406
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Speaker 3: compulsive personality, you should not be there now in that environment,

407
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,040
Speaker 3: you hear things that stories is so hard.

408
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Speaker 4: What that makes you like?

409
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Speaker 3: I used to cry in some of the groups because

410
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Speaker 3: I didn't fit in any mold. I had no diagnosis

411
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Speaker 3: because I wasn't able to be put in the group.

412
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Speaker 3: So I was separated from the population and put in isolation.

413
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Speaker 3: I spent most of my time, maybe nine years in isolation,

414
00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,280
Speaker 3: away from population. But the big part of that case

415
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Speaker 3: was for years we asked to state for the particular

416
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Speaker 3: the kits what they said that they had to show

417
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Speaker 3: the d evidence. So they said they lost it.

418
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Speaker 4: And let's go back to that.

419
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Speaker 5: And before we even do, I want to make that

420
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Speaker 5: point too, because I think you and I are on

421
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,560
Speaker 5: the same page, because I often say that I'm not

422
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,679
Speaker 5: soft on crime, I'm tough on injustice right and I

423
00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,680
Speaker 5: think too anybody who you know who hurts another human being,

424
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Speaker 5: we have to have a society of laws. We have

425
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Speaker 5: to protect the general population. I do believe that Brian

426
00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,359
Speaker 5: Stevenson says, which is that everybody's better than the worst

427
00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,800
Speaker 5: thing they've ever done. But that being said, we have

428
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Speaker 5: to hold people accountable, we have to be safe as

429
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Speaker 5: a society, but we also have to be fair. And

430
00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,960
Speaker 5: everyone's entitled to a fair shake and to a fair

431
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,119
Speaker 5: trial and to fair treatment by the system. And you

432
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Speaker 5: are the poster the poster child, for lack of a

433
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,280
Speaker 5: better word, of everything that's wrong and everything that can

434
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Speaker 5: go wrong.

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Speaker 4: And I want to get back to the rape kits.

436
00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,240
Speaker 5: Because, as you said, as your lawyers were trying to

437
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,120
Speaker 5: get the rape kits, they were saying, and that we've

438
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:49,640
Speaker 5: seen this.

439
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,720
Speaker 4: Before, that they lost them.

440
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:53,600
Speaker 5: They didn't lose them, but they said they lost them

441
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:55,200
Speaker 5: either they were too lazy to look for them, whether

442
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:56,960
Speaker 5: they didn't look very hard or whatever it was, whether

443
00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 5: they were hiding them, who knows, But one way another,

444
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:00,840
Speaker 5: that's one of the things that kept you on as

445
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,080
Speaker 5: long as it did, because if they found those rape kits,

446
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,040
Speaker 5: you would have been freed because it would have proven

447
00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,399
Speaker 5: that you could not have been the source of the

448
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,720
Speaker 5: semen that was found inside this woman. But talk a

449
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,399
Speaker 5: little bit about this isolation, right, What was that like?

450
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:15,919
Speaker 5: The isolation? I mean, does that mean you were in

451
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:17,800
Speaker 5: like solitary confinement type of sound?

452
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:18,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was in.

453
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,880
Speaker 3: It had a special unit called a B unit, where

454
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,040
Speaker 3: these particular individuals either they were treatment refused, either they

455
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:30,080
Speaker 3: refused to even participate in any programming, or like myself,

456
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,440
Speaker 3: had no diagnosis. And one other feature was they felt

457
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,600
Speaker 3: that I had too much influence on the population in regards.

458
00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,440
Speaker 4: To my legal skill, my ability to advocate.

459
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:42,800
Speaker 3: When I was standing up and say this is injustice,

460
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,360
Speaker 3: this is not right, I had no idea how many

461
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,719
Speaker 3: people was behind me saying yeah, well he said so.

462
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,840
Speaker 3: I was always looked at as someone's citing rise or

463
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,000
Speaker 3: creating gatherings because all I was doing was standing up

464
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,359
Speaker 3: for what I thought was my rights. So as a result,

465
00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,159
Speaker 3: the administration decided to isolate me and put me in

466
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,520
Speaker 3: isolation so I could not I was only able to

467
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 3: go to visits with the rest of populais. I wasn't

468
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,639
Speaker 3: able to go grooves programs events. I couldn't participate in

469
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,720
Speaker 3: anything because of my stance and because I would not

470
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,880
Speaker 3: admit guilt. At this point, I stood firmly that I'm innocent,

471
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 3: and that also set me apart from the population because

472
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,399
Speaker 3: the only way you could get therapy and treatment you

473
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 3: have to admit guilt and in this isolation you'll put

474
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,399
Speaker 3: on this unit, and this unit is I mean, one

475
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,200
Speaker 3: of the most miserable places you could be because there's.

476
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:31,200
Speaker 4: A unit of hopelessness.

477
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 3: You feel like you forgot about left there. You feel

478
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,400
Speaker 3: like everything at this point in your life is over,

479
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,239
Speaker 3: that no one believes you, and that the fight is

480
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 3: so uphill it's like ice skating uphill.

481
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 4: I mean.

482
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,480
Speaker 3: And in that moment, you know, I grew to a

483
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,600
Speaker 3: point where was though, I said to myself, because they

484
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 3: would constantly say, fortunately had CIO. They had correction alice there,

485
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 3: and they have correction officer there, who who's you know.

486
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,119
Speaker 3: He was very underst so he would say lock in,

487
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 3: you know, you gotta lock in yourself, which no one

488
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 3: wants to go lock be locking themself.

489
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,360
Speaker 4: But he was cordial about it.

490
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 3: And he did his job, but he wasn't really arrogant

491
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 3: about or aggressive. He would say lock in, guys, so

492
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 3: everybody would feel more easy about doing it. But this

493
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 3: particular day he wasn't there and they had this also

494
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 3: on and he was just being extra unnecessary that day

495
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 3: all that day, and so.

496
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 4: When time came for us a locking, he said lock in.

497
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 3: And the way he said it resonated in me so deeply.

498
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 3: He said, lock in. I said to myself, no, no,

499
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,479
Speaker 3: I'm not locking it. No, I'm not I'm innocent. I'm

500
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,399
Speaker 3: not going in her room. I'm not supposed to be

501
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 3: here today. So he says, if you don't lock in,

502
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 3: I'm gonna have to call the boys. It's gonna be trouble.

503
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 3: I said, it's gonna be some trouble today. The day

504
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 3: is that day. We're gonna have some trouble up here.

505
00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,880
Speaker 3: It's gonna be some trouble. So he called the boy.

506
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:01,639
Speaker 3: So I'm up there, back and forth.

507
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:02,160
Speaker 4: Am ready.

508
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 3: I'm positioning myself years going down today. I'm tired of this.

509
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 3: I'm not locking in no more time. I'm innocent. So

510
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 3: they ran up the stairs and I'm ready for them.

511
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 3: They come running like eight nine up. They really get me.

512
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 3: So when they got to the top of the stairs,

513
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 3: I rushed them. I grabbed them, and like for three seconds,

514
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 3: I was the mad three seconds, I was that guy.

515
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 3: After that three seconds, I felt my feet come off

516
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:29,120
Speaker 3: the ground, I felt my.

517
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:30,919
Speaker 4: Arm being pulled back around me.

518
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 3: But then they felt they threw me, grabbed me and

519
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 3: threw me in myself.

520
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 4: For you what I was in my cell, I was

521
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 4: standing in myself.

522
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 3: I flushed myself off and I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah,

523
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 3: at least I stood up for three seconds. And I

524
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,880
Speaker 3: lived in that three second moment for years. But as

525
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 3: a result of standing up and feeling that in that

526
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 3: three seconds, they looked at me different in the population.

527
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,880
Speaker 3: They said, well, why was someone put theyself through that?

528
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 3: Why was someone stand up against eight nine different people

529
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 3: just to say they innocent? And that made him take

530
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 3: a step back and say, let's look at this guy again.

531
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 3: And as a result, they became more leaning against me.

532
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,679
Speaker 3: Allowed me to more access to the law library, allowed

533
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 3: me to move around a little.

534
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 4: Bit more quietly.

535
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 3: They would say, listen, we like you, we like how

536
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 3: you move, but don't make us choose between you and

537
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 3: our job. Because I'm gonna choose my job, and if

538
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 3: I gotta knock your head, I'm knocking your head. So

539
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 3: I had to learn how to maneuver within in that philosophy,

540
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,879
Speaker 3: and that gave me the room I needed to litigate harder,

541
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 3: fight harder for my freedom.

542
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 4: And that three seconds.

543
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 3: I live in this very moment because and that three seconds,

544
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 3: I was the champion.

545
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 4: I needed to be it liberated me. It was only

546
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 4: three seconds.

547
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 3: It took him for my whole life in that moment

548
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 3: to liberate me to be the man I am today

549
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 3: and grow and feel strong. Now I had the rest

550
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 3: of my life. Three seconds turned into the rest of

551
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 3: my life. Then that changed everything for me.

552
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 5: You literally risk your life and here comes these guys

553
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 5: with the shields and the helmets, and they might have

554
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 5: killed you, and nobody would have prosecuted him.

555
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 4: If they did exactly.

556
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 5: They would have said he rushed us, it was dangerous,

557
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 5: blah blah blah. So you became the man in that moment,

558
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 5: which was really a spontaneous reaction, right because.

559
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 4: For me, that moment right there reflected in my mom

560
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 4: I had enough.

561
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 5: Well, because the thing is, and I keep coming back

562
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 5: to this, right on top of the wrongful conviction, on

563
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 5: top of the rug being pulled out from under you,

564
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 5: with the two years, you know what you had to

565
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 5: pleat gill you something you didn't do, then the seven years,

566
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 5: and then really the terrifying idea of you not being

567
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 5: able to go home and everybody else going home, and

568
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,120
Speaker 5: then the idea that you're in there for ten years

569
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 5: and it's an indefinite sentence. It's not even like if

570
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:40,679
Speaker 5: they sentenced you, well, we're going to put you in

571
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 5: this confinement thing for ten years, at least you would

572
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 5: know at the end of ten years you're going. But

573
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 5: you had no idea they could have kept you there forever.

574
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,160
Speaker 3: And because I was saying I'm innocent, that totally took

575
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 3: me out to run it. That made me did disqualify

576
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 3: any opportunity for my release. If it wasn't for the

577
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 3: fact that do you pelor court finally got tired reverse

578
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,360
Speaker 3: in my case three times and a third time they

579
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 3: finally was so frustrated they re assigned me a new attorney,

580
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 3: a new judge, and then mysteriously the evidence that we

581
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 3: were looking for up here is that we were asking

582
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 3: for maybe ten years and nine to half ten years.

583
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 3: They say with los pops, I don't know what we mislabeled.

584
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 4: Here we go, and it was mislabeled this exactly.

585
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 5: But this is another thing that's it still strikes me

586
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 5: as nutty that and that's not strong enough word. The

587
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 5: idea that your conviction was overturned three times, right, and

588
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 5: these are pro sae emotions that you were filing in

589
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 5: a pro say motion for people who haven't heard that

590
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 5: term before means emotion filed by an inmate on their

591
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,880
Speaker 5: own behalf, without the benefit of a lawyer. So how

592
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 5: does it happen that you get these convictions? And it

593
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 5: could again talk about more rugs being pulled out from

594
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 5: under you? Right here you are like they're going dangling

595
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 5: you like around like a marionette. Right so you're you

596
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 5: get this overturned and then they don't free you anyway,

597
00:27:58,160 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 5: and then they do it again, and then they don't

598
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 5: free you anyway, and then finally it takes a judge

599
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 5: to go, I'm tired of this shit, right I'm tired.

600
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 4: He was tired.

601
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,360
Speaker 5: Imagine how tired you wants to be, see people, I'm

602
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 5: tired for listening to the damn story.

603
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 3: And you know a lot of people don't really take

604
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 3: into account how something this match affects so especially I

605
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 3: mean personally for me, how much all of this, even

606
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 3: from seventeen all the way up to this point, what

607
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 3: I had to deal with as a person, as a

608
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 3: as a young man, and to deal with this environment

609
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 3: and to deal with the pain and separation and on

610
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 3: that was separate from my family and had the hostility

611
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 3: and environment had to survive and and keep my head

612
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 3: together and hold on to hope, because you know that

613
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 3: was you know, it was times I had to do

614
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 3: a lot of depression. It was are the times I

615
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 3: had to fight off, you know, saying a feeling that

616
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 3: this was never going to end. I was always going

617
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 3: to be in this situation that I was never going

618
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 3: to be able to prove to anyone that I'm worthy

619
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 3: or value someone to value me. I mean, it was

620
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 3: so hard, you know what I'm saying, and dealing with

621
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 3: disappointment over and over again to I used to ask myself,

622
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,239
Speaker 3: am I addicted to disappointment? Because it started becoming to

623
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 3: the point where I've started becoming desensitized, like I expected

624
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 3: to be let down. It affected me in a way

625
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 3: whereas though I know I felt that God has to

626
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 3: be watching over me because the fact that you know,

627
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 3: I'm not crazy at this point, because of the experience

628
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 3: of having to fight off all these emotions of loneliness,

629
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 3: the emotion of feeling powerless and just disenfranchised, and all

630
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 3: these feelings you live with, I live with for years.

631
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 5: Can you just give us some insight into what was

632
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 5: the worst and the best experience you had during your

633
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 5: seventeen years locked up in the miserable conditions that you

634
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 5: were in.

635
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 3: The worst experience was being placed in a position to

636
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 3: have to plead guilty to a crime I didn't commit,

637
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 3: along with being civilly committed in the facility where the

638
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 3: stigma was horrible, and have to live under the stigma

639
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 3: of that environment and survived, and that such hard stigma

640
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 3: being looked at and as someone who has those characteristics

641
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 3: even though I didn't.

642
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 4: The happiest moment that I had that.

643
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 3: Kind of nullified kind of took takes and put her

644
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 3: all that in this perspective was in the courtroom when

645
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 3: the judge finally judged Sherry hutchs Henderson, when she finally

646
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 3: got the DNA evident she needed from the state lab

647
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 3: and she said to me, mister Robertson, she's apologized. He

648
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 3: apology was so heart felt of how she felt so

649
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 3: bad that this happened to me. But when she said

650
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 3: I'm reversing your conviction, my support so so it was

651
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 3: like maybe thirteen people, my niece, my sister, a lady,

652
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 3: my mother, my friends. They bust out and like jubilate, nah.

653
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 3: It was so loud in the courtroom. You know, they

654
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 3: was out there like they was having the Holy goes

655
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 3: back there like church was going on.

656
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 4: And a judge she.

657
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 3: Loud them to have that moment because that was their

658
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 3: moment of vindication as well as mine, because they believe me,

659
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 3: they stood by all those years and they we knew it.

660
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 4: And you know, I expected to turn around see them

661
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 4: road on the floor.

662
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 3: But in that moment, I cried, I felt vindicated. I

663
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 3: felt now you know, I was happy. I felt like

664
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 3: something in my life just turned around. And in that moment,

665
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 3: you know, hearing them cheering and empowered me. And I think,

666
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 3: I know changed my whole walk at that point because

667
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 3: I went back and because I had to go back

668
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 3: to the civil commitments to be released from there. But

669
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 3: I had that George Jefferson walk. You know what I'm saying,

670
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 3: I'm walking on like George Jefferson now, you know.

671
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 4: So I was.

672
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 3: So that I made that experience right there. It was

673
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 3: the happiest moment in my life. You know, I'm that

674
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 3: courtroom experience. I just cannot ever erase that from my

675
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 3: mind and heart. How wrong that made me feel doing

676
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 3: a judge said that, and hear my family and everyone

677
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 3: that loved me. Just so happy to hear it and

678
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 3: know they was right because they went through a lot

679
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 3: of turmoil and kind of visit and being discriminated against

680
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 3: and coming inside and look down upon, like you supporting

681
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 3: this guy and this kind of with this kind of person.

682
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 4: With this kind of charge, and they had to go.

683
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 3: Through all that and do it and now to find

684
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 3: and see that they were right and had that moment

685
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 3: where they were like elate and such, that moment, like

686
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 3: I said, gave me that George Jefferson consence.

687
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 4: I was walking back, everybody looking at him like I

688
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 4: was a new guy, Like look at this guy, who

689
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 4: is this guy here? So, yeah, that's amazing.

690
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 5: And obviously no one can understand that feeling that hasn't

691
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 5: been through it, but you're painting a very vivid picture

692
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 5: and making I'm sure everyone that's listening feel that the

693
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 5: little piece of that joy that you had and that

694
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 5: vindication and that feeling when you were enduring. And it's

695
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 5: so crazy. I was just thinking about the timeline of

696
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 5: your life, right, seventeen years, then five years in prison,

697
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 5: then seven years out, then seventeen years. It's really a

698
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 5: crazy roller coaster ride. That's impossible for anyone to understand

699
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 5: who hasn't lived it. And it's sort of a miracle

700
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 5: that you're here, and it's really inspiring just to hear

701
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 5: you talk and see the way you are. So I want,

702
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 5: I want to ask you when you were when you

703
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 5: were locked up, was there any particular person that gave

704
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 5: you hope, that gave you strength.

705
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, at that time I had a support system. Her

706
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 3: name was Linda, Linda Roberts. At this point, she was

707
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 3: very strong in my life. Then I have a strong

708
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 3: support system analysis Hoppen Home with Her name is Tulita James,

709
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 3: we call her. So there was an adjustment process. But

710
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 3: the one person who kept me moving when I was seventeen,

711
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 3: the judge asked me, and this is the Orange record,

712
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 3: the judge said before he sentenced me, because I was

713
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 3: schedul to be senting so higher a sentence. But he

714
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 3: asked me, said, is there anything you want to say?

715
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 4: Young man?

716
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 3: So I turned to my mother, who was crying and

717
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 3: who I was hurting so bad because I'm her youngest son,

718
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 3: and she just knew that this was wrong.

719
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 4: And I said to my mother.

720
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 3: No matter what, I'm not gonna let this destroy me

721
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 3: I'm gonna do the best I could. I'm sorry, and

722
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 3: I'm gonna hold on. And I talked to my mother

723
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 3: in the courtroom, and everyone was amazed to see me

724
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 3: and my mother at this time having this back and

725
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 3: forth discussion because she was saying, hold on, I'm just

726
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 3: keep in prayer and in the courtroom, and that conversation

727
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 3: has been my mantra for all these years to tell her,

728
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 3: let my mother know that no matter what what she

729
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 3: instilled in me as her son and my father, but

730
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 3: my mother, what she put in me was nothing was

731
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 3: never going to tear that down and moral complished that

732
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,879
Speaker 3: she instilled in me to find my way back to right,

733
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 3: It's never going to be taken out. And that has

734
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 3: been my rock, my mother. She's my she and she

735
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 3: continues to be and she will always be that my

736
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 3: moral confisence.

737
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 4: She is my north star. She sounds like an extraordinary

738
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 4: she's eighty five and she can't tell her she's not fifty.

739
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 4: And I love her.

740
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 3: She's my strength, and she knows what she is and

741
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 3: I just cannot get enough of her. So I adore

742
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 3: her and she knows it, you know.

743
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:38,280
Speaker 4: So it's so important.

744
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 5: And you just heard from Rodney that that connection remains

745
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 5: intact between families, so between loved ones and people who

746
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 5: are incarcerated. And you know, in this country we have

747
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,919
Speaker 5: such a crazy system where inmates are charged. Incarcerated people

748
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 5: are charged five to ten times as much for collect calls,

749
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 5: which is insane. Now they're moving away from in person

750
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 5: visits and certain states where they're changing it to where

751
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 5: you're going to get an iPad and you get to

752
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 5: talk to your family members on the iPad, and it's like,

753
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 5: I mean, we're just we're going in the wrong direction.

754
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 5: In a lot of ways. Criminal justice system is being

755
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 5: reformed in good ways now, but in that way, it

756
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 5: just doesn't make any sense. Because we just heard it

757
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 5: directly from you. It's so important to maintain that to

758
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 5: keep that hope alive and to keep that connection strong,

759
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 5: not just for you, but for your children or your

760
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 5: mother or whatever reletives are on the outside that I

761
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 5: love you and care about you. So while you were

762
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 5: locked up the second time, were you able to maintain

763
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:31,879
Speaker 5: a relationship with your son?

764
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 4: And how is that now? Well, my son is an

765
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 4: amazing young man.

766
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 3: Even what he's been doing with me out his life,

767
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,720
Speaker 3: he's grown to be a very strong young man. He's

768
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 3: maybe six five, maybe two ninety. You know, he's a

769
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 3: big guy, you know what I'm saying, very mild man,

770
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 3: a very religious, never been involved in the law.

771
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,760
Speaker 4: You know. It doesn't drink or hang out anything, works,

772
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 4: goes to church.

773
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,240
Speaker 3: I love who he's become all my time his absence.

774
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 3: One thing that we always had that kept us together

775
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 3: was we had a passion for reading. I told him

776
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 3: how to read, basically, and he would get on the

777
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 3: phone and he would read to me.

778
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 4: And actually, freaking we learned how to read together.

779
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 3: Do comic books. I would buy comic books and I

780
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 3: would buy him one. I'd buy me one and I

781
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,319
Speaker 3: would reading and he would read it, and we would

782
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 3: talk about the comic books. And that's how we develop

783
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 3: our relationship to reading. And to this day we still

784
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 3: talk about comic books. Even we're both so amazed at

785
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 3: the new Marvel movies. We run to see him together

786
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 3: because we read about him all his life and me

787
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:36,919
Speaker 3: all my life.

788
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 4: Really, and you have a lady in your life now, yes.

789
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,320
Speaker 3: I do, a beautiful young lady who has been patient

790
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,720
Speaker 3: with me even all my adjustment and Talada James Della James,

791
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 3: who has dealt with ups and downs with myself and herself,

792
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 3: and we struggled together, and I appreciate everything she's done

793
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,720
Speaker 3: for me and with me and to me. It helped

794
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 3: me become a stronger man in my adjustment process.

795
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 5: Friday is sharp dress. Guy was complimenting him before on

796
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 5: his shoes. He's got a nice, beautiful Chris White shirt.

797
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 5: And he told me, actually the credible laws to her right.

798
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean I don't even pick my own clothes.

799
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 3: I go in the store and I picked something up

800
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 3: and she ignores it. So then what you know, she

801
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,760
Speaker 3: even because I came home I was like two ninety

802
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,320
Speaker 3: myself and wait, she helped me even in my healthier eating,

803
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 3: you know, working out. I mean, there has been an

804
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 3: adjustment process with her there in my life, and I

805
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,879
Speaker 3: only pray that I contributed something strong to her life

806
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 3: through my strength friends to her that makes her know

807
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 3: that there's always in resilience and you could come back

808
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 3: from anything, you know, saying nothing this overwhelming in life

809
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 3: that you can't start all over and be strong through.

810
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 3: So I'm hoping that my experiences and hussying me what

811
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 3: I've been through and still being strong enough man to

812
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 3: make her want to love me.

813
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 4: Has contributed to her life as well.

814
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 3: And with that, you know, I have six sisters to

815
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 3: one path away, my younger sisters sharing. But there's oh

816
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 3: and they they're like parole officers, you know. They I

817
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 3: have to check in with them. And if I was

818
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 3: checking with them, there's a so yeah. So I I

819
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 3: have some strong, beautiful women in my life that really

820
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 3: supervised me, so to speak, and take care of me

821
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 3: and help me along the way. And I think this

822
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 3: made me a much stronger man and much confident man

823
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 3: as well. I came home this time, and I was

824
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,240
Speaker 3: blessed to come home this time, and I say to myself,

825
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 3: I'm able to talk about these feelings, but feeling them

826
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 3: at the moment was was like so sad for me.

827
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 3: I used to have moments where I would be sad

828
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 3: for like days.

829
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 4: And I'd be like, pull myself. I we gonna come on,

830
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 4: you gotta pull yourself out of this.

831
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 3: I used to have to coach myself and give myself

832
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 3: pep talk sober and come on, man, you got people

833
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 3: was like you over there talking to yourself again. I'm like, listen,

834
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 3: this is the best conversation I've had all day and

835
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 3: you know, to pull myself out of stage of what

836
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 3: I just felt like.

837
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 4: It was so much overwhelming.

838
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 3: And you know, can't begin to tell all the years

839
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,320
Speaker 3: because we're talking about since seventeen and then now and

840
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 3: how much suffering it felt like. I mean, I feel

841
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 3: that's why today I advocate because I can identify with suffering.

842
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 3: You know, I don't like to see anything suffer, and

843
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 3: that's from animals to people, to the plants to anything,

844
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 3: because I know what it feels like to suffer. I

845
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 3: know it feels like to be put in a position

846
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 3: that you know, where you're just hurting inside emotionally and psychologically,

847
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 3: that you just want some help from somewhere, you know.

848
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 4: And that's why I stand today, because I just want

849
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 4: to be.

850
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 3: That for someone who may feel hopeless and feel like

851
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 3: there's knowing.

852
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 4: The Navy they.

853
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 3: See me and they say, you know, this guy, you

854
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 3: know is just someone out there that understands and cares

855
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 3: because I felt there was knowing As a result. Now,

856
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 3: I just started the Rodney Roberts Foundation.

857
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:55,839
Speaker 4: Oh tell me about that.

858
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 3: What I offer is the one thing that most in

859
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 3: the visuals who have been wrong for convicted, and not

860
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,320
Speaker 3: just wrong for convicted, but particularly the wrong for convicted,

861
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 3: but individuals who've come home and feel as there's no

862
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 3: one to connect with because in the wrong for convision

863
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 3: community the one thing we don't have. No state has

864
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 3: an agency that provides housing, work assistance, counseling.

865
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 4: No state has that.

866
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 3: So you would let come home and there's no way

867
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 3: for you to turn because some states made me feel

868
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:27,760
Speaker 3: they don't want to make that answer. You have nowhere

869
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 3: to go to, so you have no opportunities there. Myself,

870
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 3: when I came home, I had to compete with my

871
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 3: counterparts with gods on parole, probation for jobs and training

872
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 3: and treatment. And I'm going in and saying, look, I'm innocent.

873
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 3: I was just exonerated, and employees like, listen, hey man,

874
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 3: that's a great story.

875
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 4: And we did.

876
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:47,439
Speaker 3: But we're in the money making business and we would

877
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,760
Speaker 3: rather hire that God on parole because we could tax deductions.

878
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 4: For hey.

879
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 3: One playee told me that he's like, well, I can

880
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:55,760
Speaker 3: tax the duction behind Gods and parole.

881
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:56,879
Speaker 4: He was like, you a great guy.

882
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:58,800
Speaker 3: I'm sorry what happened to you, but I had to

883
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 3: hire this guy plus you on seventeen years, so we

884
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 3: don't know. So I was left in a void, and

885
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 3: so I had to.

886
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 4: Literally create a job for myself.

887
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 3: I had to literally create an opportunity for myself by

888
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 3: taking that frustration that being denied, have no place to

889
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 3: fit in and taking the passion that I have to

890
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 3: advocate against this injustice, prosecutory misconducting and ineffectious accounts of

891
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 3: course play agreements. And I started talking about it on

892
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,440
Speaker 3: a basis where people started listening and saying, you know what,

893
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 3: we like what he's saying because.

894
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,839
Speaker 4: He's relevant, it's right on time, and we think there

895
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 4: needs to be heard.

896
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 3: And I was brought into like an organization like the

897
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 3: Innocent Project, who will give me assignments and say, Ronnie Gore,

898
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 3: who you work with us and speak here. We can

899
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,959
Speaker 3: help you with a little conversation here. And that grew

900
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,800
Speaker 3: into me working closely with them, and me making the

901
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,839
Speaker 3: commercials with them, and me doing other work with them.

902
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 3: And Jeffrey Desker had the Jeffrey Desker found brought me

903
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 3: in and helped me school me in a way with

904
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:05,959
Speaker 3: you know, this is what you need to be saying,

905
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 3: and this is how you should present and this is

906
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 3: we're gonna give you this little space here. So the

907
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:15,800
Speaker 3: Rodney Robertson Foundation is a representation of all that experience.

908
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 3: What I want to do is I want to give

909
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:19,840
Speaker 3: an opportunity for those who have been wrong, for the

910
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 3: convicted to be able to reach out that's currently incarcerated

911
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 3: to reach out, so in New Jersey because New Jersey

912
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 3: is far behind and everything what comes from wrong for convicted,

913
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 3: even currently saying legislation is being challenged now. But I

914
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 3: want to be that help with with job placement, help

915
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 3: fund housing, help with counseling, which is most important, which

916
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 3: even myself after all these years, is an important feature,

917
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 3: even for myself, to help with counseling, to help with

918
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 3: reconnecting those with their families, because the one group that

919
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 3: suffers the most and most is the family.

920
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,800
Speaker 4: They see the person locked up, but once.

921
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 3: A family members locked up, the whole family's basically locked

922
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 3: up and so a degree because they can't stop being

923
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 3: connected with their love on so they suffer as well.

924
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 3: And they the families have to also be educated on

925
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 3: what's necessary to help this person reintegrate and what's to

926
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 3: look for and what characteristics to look for when you

927
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 3: see a person slipping leaves, the recidivism and when you

928
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 3: see signs of depression or feeling and hopeless. So the

929
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:29,839
Speaker 3: Rodney Robins Foundation has multifacts in that level and also

930
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:31,839
Speaker 3: with the public speaking aspect as well.

931
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 4: Right now, I have the Rottney Royis Foundation, I have

932
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 4: what I'm doing.

933
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 3: I have a go fund account that I'm trying to

934
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 3: raise money now to create a platform to bring people

935
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 3: in like get a staff.

936
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:44,839
Speaker 4: That's my goal is to have a staff.

937
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 3: And a permanent location and office in New Jersey where

938
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 3: and I'm growing from there and have my emails set

939
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 3: up Rodney Roberts Foundation ninety six at gmail dot com

940
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 3: and also the Rodney Roberts Foundation. What we're gonna do also,

941
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,879
Speaker 3: we're gonna collaborate with other organizations to fight against wrong

942
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 3: who convictions, prosecutorium misconduct, ineffectual Accouncil.

943
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 4: We're gonna try to grow in that degree.

944
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:08,439
Speaker 3: Right now, I don't want to put the bugget before

945
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 3: the horse because I'm not elevated to that level. You

946
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 3: have to be as prestigious as some of the organizations.

947
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 4: That they're book cold on.

948
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 3: Because I'm on my way, I'm headed in the right

949
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 3: direction and with the passion and ideas and energy, and

950
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,439
Speaker 3: I'm headed there and I'm gonna build and have someone

951
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:31,240
Speaker 3: so when everyone New Jersey and worldwide can connect to also.

952
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 5: And that's really exciting that you're doing that. I think

953
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 5: you're gonna make a big difference in a lot of

954
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 5: people's lives.

955
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 4: What can people do?

956
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 5: Obviously, I hope people will support join me in supporting

957
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 5: because I'm going to support you in the Roddy Roberts Foundation.

958
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 4: But what else can people do? Well?

959
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:49,799
Speaker 3: I think, particularly if their loved one is gold, how

960
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 3: close they are, if it's a family member that you're

961
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 3: directly related to, it close with The first thing you

962
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 3: need to reach out to their attorney, find out who

963
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 3: the attorney is, who's representing them, and get their discoveries,

964
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 3: get whatever paperwork with those documents they have. Get familiar

965
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 3: with what the record says yourself and try to understand that,

966
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 3: because the first thing you had to do is educate

967
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 3: yourself because most time we rely on hearsay what this

968
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 3: attorney says or this person says, and that.

969
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 4: Could be misleading.

970
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 3: If you are in a position to find out yourself,

971
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 3: you could read through their paperwork, their discoveries and decipher

972
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 3: what's being said, or do not help the family member

973
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 3: understand exactly what's being.

974
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,800
Speaker 4: Charged and how to approach the situation.

975
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 3: Secondly, just a visit, a card, a letter, at some point,

976
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,359
Speaker 3: take some time out to show that person that they're

977
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 3: not forgotten and that strength.

978
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 4: Is the person.

979
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,879
Speaker 3: You don't know how much it feels good to sit

980
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:52,839
Speaker 3: there and then hear when they do a mail call

981
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 3: and you're waiting and you hear everybody else's name call

982
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 3: and your name and not call over and over.

983
00:46:57,680 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 4: Then one day you hear your name.

984
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 3: Oh if I just you run to get this letter

985
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 3: because now you know someone out there has reached back inside.

986
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:09,799
Speaker 3: So even that something simple as that is major or something.

987
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,319
Speaker 3: And understand that when a person is released and they

988
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 3: come home, they're going through a sort of a culture

989
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:17,840
Speaker 3: shock or a reverse culture shock. They're going through a

990
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 3: process where they released from one environment to another, and

991
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,879
Speaker 3: this change they have to unlearn what they just learned,

992
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 3: you know, and to relearn what they already knew about

993
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 3: how the interact and society. You're talking about people who

994
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 3: are a person who just went through a prison experience

995
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:36,879
Speaker 3: and where they had to begin the controlled environment where

996
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 3: they had to stand in line and eat and had

997
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 3: eaten a certain period of time.

998
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 4: And you know, these things are built into you.

999
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 3: When you do the same repetitive thing over and over again,

1000
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 3: become institutionalized. Now you have to come home and to

1001
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 3: a new environment and the shock of that, which is

1002
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:55,360
Speaker 3: you know, it's just culture shock because you really unlearn

1003
00:47:55,440 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 3: all this and then to readjust yourself back to being free.

1004
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 4: I understand that that process is not it's easy, even

1005
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 4: if the person makes it look easy. It's not easy.

1006
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:06,239
Speaker 1: There.

1007
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:10,279
Speaker 3: There's a pretend there because this affects anyone that's been

1008
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 3: locked up in a long period of time.

1009
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:13,840
Speaker 4: So make sure to give them enough cushions so that

1010
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 4: they can have those moments.

1011
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 3: Well, but you may see like myself, you know, when

1012
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 3: I first came home, you know, because in the prison,

1013
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:25,359
Speaker 3: you go to take a shower, you take a shower,

1014
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 3: you're underwear, and you watch it. When I went home,

1015
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:29,840
Speaker 3: came home, I went to shout the money, and the

1016
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 3: lady like, what are you doing so? And I was like,

1017
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 3: I don't want to watch you like listen, you're not there,

1018
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 3: and so you know, so I so you look for

1019
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 3: a little sounds like that where they're sitting at the

1020
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 3: table and they take this poon and put it inside

1021
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 3: the cup, and.

1022
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 4: You're You're like, what are you doing? You know, it's

1023
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 4: a little jail house things that.

1024
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 3: People have to shed and little psychological things that people

1025
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 3: may do. Have a little more patience with the loved one.

1026
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 5: I want to I want to reinforce one point that

1027
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 5: you made which is so powerful and I'm glad you

1028
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 5: said it, which is that it's so important that people

1029
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 5: understand that just because your loved one or even you

1030
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 5: have a lawyer, doesn't mean that lawyer is doing a

1031
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,320
Speaker 5: great job. Even the best intentions. Sometimes in the court system,

1032
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:14,880
Speaker 5: which we know is not always the best attention, but

1033
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,319
Speaker 5: mistakes are made. So even if you have a good

1034
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 5: defense lawyer, they might be going through something in their life.

1035
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,320
Speaker 5: They might miss a detail. So if you have that

1036
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 5: opportunity to be able to read those papers and those transcripts,

1037
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:28,280
Speaker 5: you might be able to find that piece of evidence

1038
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 5: or that legal principle that might help yourself or your

1039
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 5: loved one, and you can present that to your lawyer

1040
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 5: and they may have missed it. And so that's such

1041
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,479
Speaker 5: a great point that you brought up. And now, Ronnie,

1042
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 5: we have a tradition on wrongful conviction, which is that

1043
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 5: I like to just sit here and listen and let

1044
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 5: you talk about anything you think you may have left out.

1045
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 5: You know, you got so much, so much knowledge. It's

1046
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 5: so much hard and so much to share. So I

1047
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 5: just want to give you a chance to just say

1048
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 5: anything at all that you want.

1049
00:49:57,840 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 4: Wow.

1050
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:03,439
Speaker 3: I just, you know, even given that opportunity, I once

1051
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 3: read that it says that ammire a person who's been

1052
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 3: through hell and came out, but takes buckets of water

1053
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 3: back to those who are there. And even this moment,

1054
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 3: I still want to hold dear to my passion and

1055
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 3: try to reach out to others as well. And at

1056
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 3: this point, through the Rodney Roberts Foundation, I'm just trying

1057
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 3: to buy a bigger bucket because I went back, I

1058
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 3: took buckets there, and I found out that my buckets

1059
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 3: need to be a little bit bigger to provide more

1060
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 3: service to a larger group of people. And just that,

1061
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 3: just you know, I want to continue to stay close

1062
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 3: to the front line and stay close to you know,

1063
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:50,320
Speaker 3: fighting alongside the champions such as yourself and others, and

1064
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 3: trying to expose something in this country that has becoming

1065
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 3: a phenomenon now is why it's wrong for convision and

1066
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 3: prostitutory in Wisconda and ineffects us accounsels and continue to

1067
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 3: be on a positive path and a productive path. And

1068
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:08,359
Speaker 3: I can make myself and my mother and my loved

1069
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 3: ones proud to proud of me and proud to be

1070
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:13,920
Speaker 3: associated with me. So that's it for me.

1071
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:17,800
Speaker 5: Well, for anyone who's listening, you've now heard the extraordinary

1072
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 5: saga and the equally extraordinary spirit of Rodney Roberts. I

1073
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 5: hope you'll consider donating to the Rodney Roberts Foundation. For

1074
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 5: every dollar that anyone donates myself and Wrongful Conviction, we

1075
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 5: will match up to ten thousand dollars, so we'll get

1076
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 5: you off to a good start there, and we'll be

1077
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 5: very proud to continue to support you as you do

1078
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 5: this amazing life saving work. And I'm just really I'm

1079
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 5: just proud to know you and happy to call you

1080
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 5: a friend. And I appreciate you coming on and sharing

1081
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 5: your experienced strength and wisdom with our audience. And I

1082
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 5: want to thank you again, Rodney, and you've been listening

1083
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:59,240
Speaker 5: to a very unique and tremendous episode of wrongful conviction.

1084
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 4: Thank you, Thank you.

1085
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 5: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

1086
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 5: get your podcasts.

1087
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:12,760
Speaker 1: It really helps.

1088
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 5: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and

1089
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:18,799
Speaker 5: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

1090
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:22,800
Speaker 5: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

1091
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:25,880
Speaker 5: to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how to donate and

1092
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 5: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor

1093
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 5: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is

1094
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:35,399
Speaker 5: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure

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Speaker 5: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on

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Speaker 5: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm

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Speaker 5: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association

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Speaker 5: with Signal Company Number one