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Speaker 1: This is a me eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear. Listening to Hunt podcast,

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Speaker 1: you can't predict anything presented by First Light creating proven

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Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear.

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Speaker 1: For every hunt, first Light, Go farther, stay longer. Holy cow.

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Speaker 1: Mike Couns is here. Archaeologist and paleontologists who I knew.

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Speaker 1: You could probably tell me the exact date we met

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Speaker 1: Mike from your little h Yeah, June twenty eighth, two

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Speaker 1: thousand and six. There you have it. I'll never forget it.

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Speaker 1: Archaeologist and paleontologists when we had If you go back

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Speaker 1: to an episode episode three h six, um one of

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Speaker 1: many affiliations of Mike Couns, University of Alaska and the BLM,

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Speaker 1: and I knew the Bureau Land Management. I knew him

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Speaker 1: in his Bureau of Land Management capacity when he was

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Speaker 1: directing a bunch of archaeological work. And also like all

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Speaker 1: aircraft in the Arctic in the National Patrol and Reserve Alaska,

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Speaker 1: which if you read the news a lot, you're probably

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Speaker 1: reading a little bit about that place lately. An episode

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Speaker 1: three or six of this podcast. We had an episode

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Speaker 1: called an Alder scholt Hellhole in which we interviewed some

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Speaker 1: of Mike's colleagues. You know they're not here. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: say this because we couldn't get Mike. Does that make

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Speaker 1: you feel better? It was like getting the V. It

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Speaker 1: was like having the VP. Like you're like the news

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Speaker 1: and the President. K You're like, oh, I guess we'll

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Speaker 1: take the VP. Like when you see the VP on

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Speaker 1: the news. They couldn't get the president. So we had

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Speaker 1: we had Mike. We had Dan and Pam doctor Pamela

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Speaker 1: Groves and Daniel Mann. Dan Man. Yeah, we had him

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Speaker 1: on and on that episode. Why couldn't you get Mike?

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Speaker 1: That episode? Because Mike when the beginning, when when the

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Speaker 1: COVID began, he said he's not gonna go anywhere until

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Speaker 1: COVID ends, which turned into like a year's long thing.

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Speaker 1: And then he's got all these other reasons why he

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Speaker 1: doesn't want to go anywhere. He's kind of like he's

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Speaker 1: kind of I don't know that. I mean, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I'm getting the hermit. I get a hermit vibe off him. Yes,

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Speaker 1: he likes to be in the Arctic. Um. So we

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Speaker 1: had him on. I don't remember this, but apparently we

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Speaker 1: called Mike cons the It's good We called him the

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Speaker 1: Forrest Gump of archaeology, to which he took to which

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Speaker 1: we have to do some clarifications. He had wrote it

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Speaker 1: after that episode and said, yes, I did know this

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Speaker 1: is a correspondent between him and Krinn. He said, yes,

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Speaker 1: I did know that Pam and Dan had done an

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Speaker 1: episode with Steve, and yes, I have listened to that episode.

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Speaker 1: Comments about me by Dan, Pam and Steve made me

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Speaker 1: sound like some benevolent, benabulous creature that wandered the north

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Speaker 1: slope dolling out helicopters to researchers. I also found out

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Speaker 1: that my old buddy David Meltzer has been on twice.

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Speaker 1: I haven't yet listened to the Meltzer episodes. I don't

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Speaker 1: suppose he told you that I started my archaeological career

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Speaker 1: at Blackwater Draw, the Clovis Type site, while he was

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Speaker 1: still in grade school. So uh so, Krin suggested that

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Speaker 1: rather than calling him the Forrest Gump of archaeology, is

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Speaker 1: the Godfather of archaeology or the og of archaeology, You're

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Speaker 1: just like archaeology comma og people, people, people know you.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to know what I was called when

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Speaker 1: the last twenty years I was ad blm up in

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Speaker 1: the patrol em Reserve. No, I do want to know, Okay,

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Speaker 1: Meltzer I think coined this the MASSI a group of

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Speaker 1: native group in in Africa. They're prestoral and the social

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Speaker 1: standing and a wealth of any individual family is measured

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Speaker 1: by the number of cattle they have, all right, So

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Speaker 1: I think it was Meltzer decided that I had control

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Speaker 1: of more helicopters on the north Slope than anybody else,

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Speaker 1: and therefore I was the most important man on the

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Speaker 1: north slope. And as I recall, I think it might

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Speaker 1: have been somebody else christened to me the Emperor of

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Speaker 1: the North and the King of the West. You know,

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Speaker 1: I got it. As a first question, this is I'm

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Speaker 1: bringing this one up first because then we're going to

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Speaker 1: touch on a couple things that we're going very quickly

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Speaker 1: get back. But I'm bringing this one up first because

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Speaker 1: this one just as a free standing question. You told

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Speaker 1: me a story. Well, first of I'll let you set

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Speaker 1: the scene. I spent time and we'll get to this.

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Speaker 1: I spent time with Mike cons and some other researchers

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Speaker 1: in on the north slope of the Brooks Range, and

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Speaker 1: we were surveying the ground for projectile points, and there

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Speaker 1: was a bit of interest then in um looking for

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Speaker 1: evidence remains interest with interest at the time of looking

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Speaker 1: for evidence of you know who, possibly the first Americans

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Speaker 1: right who had crossed the baring Land Bridge. You had

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Speaker 1: once said to me, this is not the question. You

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Speaker 1: had said to me something like ony, on June twenty fourth,

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Speaker 1: the mosquitoes will be here. If that was a date

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Speaker 1: on June twenty third. On June twenty second, there are

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Speaker 1: no mosquitos. June twenty third, I go like, oh wow,

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Speaker 1: mosquito on my arm and smack it. On June twenty four.

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Speaker 1: Holy shit, it would we would have. We would eat

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Speaker 1: in a wall tent at night, and the first thing

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Speaker 1: you would do is going and bomb it, like bug

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Speaker 1: bomb the wall tent. And I'm not joking. These guys

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Speaker 1: would go in with a broom and a dust pan

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Speaker 1: to sweep, and they would sweep up with legit dust

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Speaker 1: pan of mosquitos and throw them out the door, and

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Speaker 1: then you'd sit down and eat. It sounds like a

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Speaker 1: beautiful place. You've never seen anything it's like maddening. It's

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Speaker 1: daylight all the time. The sun just goes around over

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Speaker 1: your head. They don't go by the activities are not

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Speaker 1: governed by time of day. They're governed by wind speed.

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Speaker 1: So three in the morning wind dies down. All right,

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Speaker 1: it's you don't know what way is up, Mike? Did you?

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Speaker 1: Did you have people that would get kind of squirrely

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Speaker 1: up there because of those the biggest, the biggest problem.

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Speaker 1: Most of our crews were composed of undergraduate or graduate

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Speaker 1: archaeology students from various universities, and the thing that seemed

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Speaker 1: to bother them the most was the eternal daylight. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I and they said, well, how do you sleep?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I just close my eyes and go

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Speaker 1: to sleep. But most of them would like tie a

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Speaker 1: T shirt around their eyes or something like that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that was the bigger The other thing is, and

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Speaker 1: I'll interject this here. When I was talking with a

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Speaker 1: prospective crew member on the phone, you know, like they

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Speaker 1: lived in Maryland or you know, texar Cana or someplace,

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Speaker 1: and I would one of the things I always told

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Speaker 1: them was that you could have something happen to you

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Speaker 1: where you are now. And because you have access to

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Speaker 1: an ambulance in a hospital, it doesn't matter. It's something

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Speaker 1: they could take care of. And fifteen minutes. If something

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Speaker 1: happens to you out here, I'd be lucky to be

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Speaker 1: able to get you out of here in twenty four hours.

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Speaker 1: Even if I had the helicopter sitting on the ground

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Speaker 1: and the weather was was, you know, on its ass,

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Speaker 1: you couldn't go in. So just keep in mind that

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Speaker 1: something as simple as almost a hangnail that can't do

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Speaker 1: any damage to you. In civilization, you could die from

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Speaker 1: up here, So consider that before you tell me if

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Speaker 1: you really want to come up here. So let me

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Speaker 1: ask you my freestanding question. Now, I've tried to tell

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Speaker 1: this story dozens of times, but I don't know the details,

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Speaker 1: so I don't know how to end the story. You

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Speaker 1: told me something to the effect of that you were

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Speaker 1: flying along in a helicopter with a pilot and you

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Speaker 1: saw an Arctic fox run into the carcass of a

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Speaker 1: beached whale. You advised your pilot to tap the whale

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Speaker 1: with the landing gear of the helicopter, and how many

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Speaker 1: foxes came out of the whale. Well, it wasn't quite

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Speaker 1: like that. Okay, help me out. My colleague Dale Slaughter,

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Speaker 1: who was with me when we found the MASA site

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy eight, I was working on his site

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Speaker 1: for his PhD dissertation at a place called the Sharrock

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Speaker 1: up on the Arctic coast between Windwright and Piered Bay,

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Speaker 1: and the California gray whale had washed up on the

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Speaker 1: beach and so the Arctic foxes had drilled into it.

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Speaker 1: How big is a California gray whale? Approximately, it's not

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Speaker 1: one of the bigger whales, but it's it's probably, and

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Speaker 1: it depends on the age, but let's say this, and

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Speaker 1: was probably It was a matur one, all right, that's all.

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Speaker 1: That's the best they can do, maybe twenty five feet long,

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Speaker 1: something like that. So anyway, we had seen foxes go

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Speaker 1: into it, and I just said, hey, let's go over

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Speaker 1: and just bounce on this thing once and you know,

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Speaker 1: let see what happened. And we did, and a whole

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Speaker 1: bunch of foxes came running out of these out of

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Speaker 1: the whale. You didn't count them, no, but there were

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of probably at least a dozen.

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Speaker 1: So I think when I tell it, I'd like to

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Speaker 1: say that thirteen came out that you can you can

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Speaker 1: tell that you can tell that story anyway you wont

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Speaker 1: I have. I have no particular feeling of priority on it. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I got one more. I got one more free standing question,

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Speaker 1: and then we're gonna get back into longer answer things.

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Speaker 1: You told me one time, sitting there in our pile

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Speaker 1: of mesquite dead mosquitos. You're telling me about going to

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Speaker 1: some lake and how many casts in a row you

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Speaker 1: caught Lake Trout m Yeah, every cast. That was when

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Speaker 1: we were working on trans Alaska pipeline. It was in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four or fiveborn really yeah, Okay, So anyway,

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Speaker 1: we um the surveyors and the archaeologists were out ahead

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Speaker 1: of everybody on that project, on any project like that,

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Speaker 1: because we had to clear the right away for the

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Speaker 1: actual construction work. And if the surveyors had lay laid out,

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Speaker 1: and then we'd be right behind them looking for archaeological

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Speaker 1: sites because the regulation said you can't. You can't, you know,

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Speaker 1: on federal property or on any project that has federal

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Speaker 1: money in it. You can't destroy cultural history, all right,

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Speaker 1: So we were right behind them and that and we're

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Speaker 1: weight out in front of everything and that's one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons that just the archaeologists and the surveyors, we

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Speaker 1: were the only working group that could carry firearms because

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Speaker 1: we're out there totally by ourselves, and you do run

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Speaker 1: into grizzly bears pretty frequently. So it was one of

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Speaker 1: these things we'll let the archaeologists and the surveyors. Well,

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Speaker 1: basically we said we aren't going out there if we

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Speaker 1: can't take our shotguns with it. So what was your question?

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Speaker 1: You took You took some number of casts. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: so rough didn't catch a lake tripe? Well that was

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Speaker 1: it at Kellic Lake? Okay? Where where where I started

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Speaker 1: digresses that almost everybody that ran the camp, like the

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Speaker 1: kitchen help and a guy running the sewer treatment plan,

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Speaker 1: and the guys in the small engine shop and etcetera, etcetera,

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Speaker 1: never got out of camp ever, all right, And I mean, well,

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Speaker 1: you're having all these adventures and they come up to us,

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Speaker 1: you know, and dinner at dinner time, and they say, hey,

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Speaker 1: could you take my camera when you go out tomorrow

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Speaker 1: morning and just circle camp once and take a couple

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Speaker 1: of you know, aerial photos of camp, you know, so

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Speaker 1: I can you know, take them home home with me,

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Speaker 1: you know, when I go back on R and R

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Speaker 1: and we and we'd say yeah, sure, you know, but

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Speaker 1: we didn't always get exactly what they wanted. So we

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Speaker 1: had a helicopter, and what the pipeline guys were doing

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Speaker 1: with the big wheels in order to make sure that

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Speaker 1: they had enough helicopters, they would offer contracts to the

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Speaker 1: helicopter companies that said, we'll pay you for eighty hours

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Speaker 1: a month, regardless of how much we fly. If we

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Speaker 1: fly your ship ten hours, we'll still pay you for

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Speaker 1: eighty and so everybody, yeah, man, I want to get

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Speaker 1: one of those contracts. So I talked with the cap

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Speaker 1: manager one night and I said, hey, can we do

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Speaker 1: something about this. You know, these guys are stuck here

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Speaker 1: all the time. I said, how about if our pilot

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Speaker 1: says okay, he's okay with it, you know, because he's

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Speaker 1: on his free time, and after dinner at night, two

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Speaker 1: people can go with the pilot. He'll take them and

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Speaker 1: they take their own pictures and get what they want.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that we were also doing at

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Speaker 1: the same time was taking people over to Akillic Lake.

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Speaker 1: All right, we weren't supposed to do this, but we

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Speaker 1: did to fishing a lot of good lake trout over there.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I can go to jail now because

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Speaker 1: that was, you know, forty five years ago. But at

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Speaker 1: any rate, there was one time and I had a

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Speaker 1: small crew over it at Killock Lake, which was about

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Speaker 1: fifteen miles over the mountains from Galbreath Lake, which was

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Speaker 1: where our headquarters with we had I think I had

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Speaker 1: five guys in that crew, and then I brought about

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Speaker 1: three more over and they were all fishing, and they

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Speaker 1: all I mean, this didn't just happen every time, but

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Speaker 1: at one moment everybody, they're nine people had a lake

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Speaker 1: trout on. They're standing about maybe ten yards apart, and

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Speaker 1: one of them thirty eight inches long and thirty three pounds. Wow. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a true story. Yep. I can't even name everybody

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Speaker 1: that was there, but so there was no consecutive cast.

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Speaker 1: He might have forgotten. Oh no, no, they were not

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Speaker 1: everybody that what I just related. Only thing happened once.

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Speaker 1: I mean when you had everybody. But there was never

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Speaker 1: a time with everybody standing on shore where at least

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Speaker 1: one or two or maybe three people had a fish on.

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Speaker 1: I mean always, always, if all nine people cast out.

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Speaker 1: At least two of them would get a fish on

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Speaker 1: every time. So because nobody ever really fished there before.

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Speaker 1: I got a question about something you said earlier in

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Speaker 1: your story. How often would you be forced to reroute

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Speaker 1: that pipeline because you found something like was it common

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Speaker 1: or never? Did it never? And I'll tell you what.

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Speaker 1: The regulations are bad in the sense that they never

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Speaker 1: work the way they're supposed to work, and in or

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Speaker 1: what we were supposed to do was protect any site

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Speaker 1: that was eligible for inclusion on the National Register of

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Speaker 1: Historic Places. It takes about two years after the nomination

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Speaker 1: of a site to be included, to go through all

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Speaker 1: the paperwork and everything else before it can be put

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Speaker 1: on the register. Two years. We're out there building a pipeline, right,

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Speaker 1: we can't wait two years for every time we find

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Speaker 1: a site. So what the senior archaeologist, the guy that

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Speaker 1: we worked for at the university decided was any site

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Speaker 1: that we find within the CZW, which was construction zone

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Speaker 1: with not the right of way, but the construction zone

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Speaker 1: with which is wider than the right way because you

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Speaker 1: have to have activities and sillary to the right away

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Speaker 1: all the time. If it was in the CZW. And

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Speaker 1: we found a site, we excavated it no differently than

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Speaker 1: we'd excavate any site, but we'd excavate it totally. We'd

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Speaker 1: have all the notes there, all the maps, everything else

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Speaker 1: in a museum, so that if there was to be

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Speaker 1: designation for inclusion on the annual Register, all the stuff

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Speaker 1: was there and we didn't have to wait two years

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Speaker 1: for it to happen and then say, Okay, you guys

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Speaker 1: can now move another quarter mile because we found another site.

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Speaker 1: That how many sites did you excavate? Two dozens? Dale

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Speaker 1: and Dale Slaughter and I were in charge of the

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00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,880
Speaker 1: northernmost section of the pipeline that ran from a place

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Speaker 1: called Linda Creek on the south side of the Continental

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Speaker 1: Divide in the Brooks Range all the way to Prudo Bay,

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Speaker 1: all right to the end of the It's about probably

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Speaker 1: close to two hundred and fifty three hundred miles. I

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Speaker 1: don't remember as long time ago, but I know that

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Speaker 1: we excavated in that area. Let me put it this way.

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Speaker 1: I know that we discovered more than two hundred archaeological

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Speaker 1: sites within the cz W of the pipeline in that distance. Yeah,

285
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Speaker 1: we didn't. We didn't excavate them all, all right, Well

286
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,639
Speaker 1: you couldn't have. But that's about what we've found. What

287
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,399
Speaker 1: was that light being out ahead of that out ahead

288
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Speaker 1: of that pipeline construction and you feel like he got

289
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Speaker 1: like this, uh I forget like the geopolitics of it

290
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Speaker 1: in the oil security, but you got like just this

291
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Speaker 1: monster coming behind you. Just rotal till on the ground, man,

292
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Speaker 1: and that thing's gonna be there and you canna be

293
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Speaker 1: able to see it from outer space and it ain't

294
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Speaker 1: ever going away. We were usually far enough ahead so

295
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Speaker 1: that we didn't we didn't encounter we weren't working near

296
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Speaker 1: a lot of the equipment. But I do have one

297
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:11,440
Speaker 1: picture where the engineers had decided they wanted to use

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Speaker 1: one material site that was different than the one they

299
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Speaker 1: had originally told us they were going to use. So

300
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Speaker 1: we went and looked at that and we found a

301
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Speaker 1: site there, and but it turned out that was the

302
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Speaker 1: only material site that was located so it could be

303
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Speaker 1: used on this one stretch of the road, and we

304
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Speaker 1: literally I've got a picture I took from the helicopter

305
00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:45,760
Speaker 1: of us on this stock of dirt and rocks sticking

306
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Speaker 1: up in the air like this, and about six scrapers

307
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Speaker 1: and five pushcats working all around us, and we're on

308
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Speaker 1: this little stock sticking up in the air about fifteen

309
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Speaker 1: twenty feet and these guys were mining all the stuff

310
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Speaker 1: all on us. So that's the only time that something

311
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,160
Speaker 1: like that happened. Yeah, yeah, And what were you guys

312
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Speaker 1: working on there? Well, there was an archaeological site that

313
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Speaker 1: we had to excavate because they were gonna they were

314
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Speaker 1: gonna take everything that was in that in that Okay,

315
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,000
Speaker 1: I gotta step back. And then most of the material,

316
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:23,000
Speaker 1: all of the material came from the local surroundings, from

317
00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:27,360
Speaker 1: the you know, the countryside. Most of it came out

318
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:32,440
Speaker 1: of glacial deposits, ancient glacial glacial deposits. Because when the

319
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Speaker 1: ice bladed, when it melted, when the glacier receded, all

320
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,480
Speaker 1: the junkeet had scooped up all along its course for

321
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Speaker 1: thousands of years just stops right along with the ice.

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Speaker 1: The ice melts out, and here's this big blob of

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Speaker 1: rock and soil and everything else that just gets set

324
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Speaker 1: down there. And it's big enough so it's actually a hill.

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Speaker 1: You know, you can you can hike those. Sometimes you

326
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Speaker 1: hike in on them. It's like you're on an elevated sidewalk.

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Speaker 1: Well those are those are cames, okay, all right, which

328
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,359
Speaker 1: which is what I was describing, but their linear cames,

329
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:10,280
Speaker 1: and sometimes they're small lateral moraines or eskers. But the

330
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,800
Speaker 1: whole point of this thing is that all that stuff

331
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Speaker 1: was mined to make the road on that project, which

332
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,520
Speaker 1: most people don't realize. There's actually it was almost like

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Speaker 1: two separate projects. There was the road that had to

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00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,440
Speaker 1: be built north of the Yukon River, all right, and

335
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,159
Speaker 1: then that road because the road had to be built

336
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,240
Speaker 1: before you could even begin to build the pipeline. So

337
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 1: it was like two separate projects the project when we

338
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,639
Speaker 1: built the road, and once the road was all built,

339
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,119
Speaker 1: then we could start the project to build the pipeline.

340
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:53,960
Speaker 1: And the project that does the most environmental damage by

341
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:58,720
Speaker 1: far is the road, because you're mine and all this stuff,

342
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 1: you're tearing up the country side, etc. Etc. So that's

343
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:05,359
Speaker 1: where the bulk of the of the concern is is

344
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:11,200
Speaker 1: on the road. Secondarily, after the project's done, still the

345
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,880
Speaker 1: road provides most of the impact to the surrounding ecology

346
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,879
Speaker 1: because that's where everybody's going up and down. Dust is

347
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 1: going all over the place. The main concern on the

348
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 1: pipeline at the time was that it would disrupt caribou

349
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Speaker 1: migrations because caribou would never seen a pipe line, and

350
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Speaker 1: so they're gonna you got this eight hundred mile pipe.

351
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Speaker 1: Well I shouldn't say the pipeline is eight hundred miles long.

352
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,359
Speaker 1: But the part they were worried about was the first

353
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Speaker 1: three hundred miles, okay, with the artic Cariboo heard, Western

354
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Speaker 1: artic heard, and the porcupine heard. Like a lot of

355
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Speaker 1: talk about would they go under it, would they cross it?

356
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Speaker 1: Because they don't go understuff. Well, I got lots of

357
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Speaker 1: pictures of caribou all nestled down in the shade of

358
00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:01,159
Speaker 1: the pipeline taking a break. Okay, now, because that is

359
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 1: is that like how people will tell you that the

360
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 1: developments are great for muldier because sometimes there's a mulder

361
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 1: in their yard. Well, we're laying next to us. Yeah,

362
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,360
Speaker 1: go ahead, Yeah, Well there used to be a thousand there,

363
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 1: now there's two. And yes, they're in your yard. Yeah,

364
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Speaker 1: Now that's there by mean that you're subdivisions a good mulderer.

365
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 1: That's a little different, all right. What the concern was

366
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Speaker 1: legitimate at first because this had never been done before,

367
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 1: all right, and you got oh sure, yeah. I'm not

368
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,239
Speaker 1: trying to downplay the concern. The western caribou heard at

369
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Speaker 1: that time was probably about two hundred and fifty thousand animals.

370
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 1: Porcupine heard was probably even a little bigger. But if

371
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 1: they couldn't migrate to their various seasonal locations, then I

372
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,119
Speaker 1: was going to have a tremendous impact on caribou. And

373
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Speaker 1: at that time, more so than now, a lot of

374
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Speaker 1: the native communities still relied very, very heavily on the

375
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Speaker 1: environment to provide them with their food and so forth.

376
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Speaker 1: And what it turned out to be was like anything else.

377
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Speaker 1: I mean, wildlife biologists no knew this, but it had

378
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:15,680
Speaker 1: never been demonstrated with caribou. If if you give the

379
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 1: animals enough time, they'll acclimate to almost anything, all right,

380
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 1: as long as they don't associate any bad, harmful occurrence

381
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:32,120
Speaker 1: with whatever it is that's there, all right. So if

382
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: the pipelines there and nobody's shooting at them and killing

383
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 1: them and doing this or that to disturb them, sooner

384
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 1: or later, they're gonna get used to it. And you know,

385
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 1: one of them is gonna say, hey, Fred, you see

386
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 1: that shade? There were two hundred miles from a tree.

387
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 1: We got shade. Now, oh yeah, let's go wide down

388
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,160
Speaker 1: under it. And so is that why they initially not initially?

389
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 1: Is that why they had the five mile buffer on

390
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 1: either side for hunting. Yes, that's a simple answer. Yes,

391
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 1: to make it not to not instill paranoia around that,

392
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 1: not to not instill paranoia, but not to that road

393
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: would provide access to hunt. In other words, it eliminates

394
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 1: fair chase to a degree. All right, That's that's the

395
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 1: basic thing. In other words, not eliminates, well, enforces a

396
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 1: definition of it. Well yeah, yeah, but what I mean

397
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: it eliminates the concept of fair chase. If you have

398
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: these guys all lined up, you know, taking it easy someplace,

399
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 1: and you get out of your veiling and go and

400
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: blow away three of them, all right, that's not fair chase,

401
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: all right? And almost all phishing game regulations anywhere are

402
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 1: based on fair chase. In other words, you can't you

403
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:52,640
Speaker 1: can't have an edge that's unfair and will ecologically threaten

404
00:25:53,800 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 1: the the herd or you know, the population and put

405
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: it into some kind of danger or something. What's in

406
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 1: your career, what's the most care but you ever saw

407
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: at anyone given time. Well, you were out at Udicoc

408
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 1: Udicot camp. Um, it was probably in It was fairly

409
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 1: I'd say it's like two thousand nine or ten. We

410
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 1: had a heard come through Udicoc heading east. They were

411
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:36,360
Speaker 1: about a quarter of a mile wide and about two

412
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 1: and a half miles long. Mm, so there, I mean

413
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 1: I never figured it out, but there had to be

414
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 1: somewhere on the order of somewhere between thirty and forty

415
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 1: thousand and Yeah. That's unbelievable. What time of year it

416
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 1: was in the fall? No, I to take it back,

417
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: It wasn't well, no, I was into fall for up there. Okay,

418
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: late summer for here. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, Uh. That's

419
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: not far from the MASA site. Yeah, that place was,

420
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: I mean that was a Uticac Uticoc. What's your guys camp?

421
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: That was by that MAZA site Ivachech Okay, Yeah. The

422
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: maze is six miles south of Ivotech. Udicoc is one

423
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 1: hundred and forty miles west of Ivotech. Got it, So

424
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: it's a long ways away. What were you doing? Explain

425
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 1: when you were doing the day you found the MAZA

426
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: site and what it was that you found. Um, well,

427
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 1: Dale and I had gotten dropped off by the helicopter

428
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 1: because what we were doing at the time, almost without exception,

429
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 1: all of the wells we drilled on that project. And

430
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: you got to remember, the Trolling Reserve is about the

431
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: size of the state of Indiana. Okay. It's the single

432
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: largest chunk of land managed by a single federal agency

433
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 1: in the country. Okay. It's also, like, by various mathematical parameters,

434
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: is the remotest place in America in terms of distance

435
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: from road, distance from city, distance from this you're there's

436
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: a sign at Ivotech, okay, and it says welcome to Ivotech.

437
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: When you're here, you're still nowhere, all right, And it

438
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 1: says like who however many people are there? You hang

439
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 1: up little things? Population eight or three or whatever. Yeah,

440
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 1: you walk. If you walked east from there, you would

441
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: go hundreds of miles until you hit the pipeline. Right, Okay,

442
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: I'll center it for you. Here's Ivotech. It's four hundred

443
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: miles from the near yest city, Fairbanks, Okay. All right.

444
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: It's two hundred and fifty miles from the nearest town,

445
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 1: Barrow now known as a Yavic, And it is one

446
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: hundred and sixty miles sixty five miles from the nearest

447
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: highway road, which is the Dalton Highway going to Pruda Bay,

448
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: and it is ninety miles from the nearest Eskimo village,

449
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: anactoic pass. So that gives you an idea of exactly

450
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: what you're talking about. I mean, it's the middle of nowhere,

451
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: but any rate to get back to me and Dale

452
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 1: find in the Mesa. So we get dropped off. And

453
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 1: the reason is we were digging a site near the

454
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: proposed well site of Lisburne, and so they the guys

455
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: come by and say, we want you to go out

456
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: and look at this stuff because Lisburne, along with two

457
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: other well sites, we're going to be what they called

458
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: deep strat wells. They were going to be not excuse me,

459
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 1: drive to find oil at all. They wanted to know

460
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: what the subsurface strateigraphy was for a long way down

461
00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: that well at Lisburne with seventeen thousand feet, Damn, you're

462
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: putting china on it. The well at Innigoc was nineteen

463
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: thousand feet and the will At well at Tune the

464
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: Lick was twenty one thousand feet. That drill it's got

465
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: to come out hot, right, well, it's hot down there.

466
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 1: We're only a little way under the story here. So

467
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 1: all the other wells that we drilled up there over

468
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: a three year period, we were looking for hydrocarbon resources.

469
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: They were all done in the winter because in the

470
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: winter you can make your airstrip, you can make your

471
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: camp pad, you can make the drill pad, everything out

472
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: of ice and snow. You go in there. You're only

473
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: drilling between five and seven thousand feet on those things.

474
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: You know, your rig up, spud the well, drill for

475
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: six weeks, rig down, and you're gone. Everything melts, nothing left.

476
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: No one ever touched the ground. Well, I mean not,

477
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: that's not true. Literally, yea, it would look like that.

478
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: But you build every single thing out of ice and snow,

479
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: and you know, you put a if you got a lake.

480
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: The idea was to have you start off with a

481
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: small crew going out of Lonely. Lonely was the headquarters.

482
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: It's an old new line station about ninety miles east

483
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: of Barrow Dow line. That is the thing to make

484
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: sure the Rooskies weren't coming, yeah, the distant early warning line.

485
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: So what you do is you have this little overland

486
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: crew go. You're walking a D seven cat, probably a

487
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: seven ninety nine loader, um, a couple of tucker snow cats,

488
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: maybe another dozer pulling a trailer full of stuff. You

489
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: get these guys over there to where you're gonna build

490
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,239
Speaker 1: drill your well, all right, and hopefully there's a lake

491
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: close enough. But if there isn't there almost always is,

492
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 1: then you have to build one on the tundra. You

493
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: build it out of ice. So this first ground crew

494
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: gets over there and they'll build a little twin otter

495
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: strip on a lake. Then you can start bringing more

496
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: people in. You get enough people over there, then you

497
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: can build a big five thousand foot herk strip on

498
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,239
Speaker 1: the ice or on a lake, or else building one

499
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 1: on a tunder all right, then you start herking a

500
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: rig in. In the meantime, there's a whole crew over

501
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 1: there building the ice pad for the well, building the

502
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: pad for the camp, and the guys start hrking in

503
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: a rig. They rig up and they start drilling. So

504
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: you have to have c one thirty hercules is making about.

505
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: I can't remember how many trips, something like eighteen trips

506
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: to get a TBA rig in there, which stands for

507
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: transportable by anything, all right, just depends on how many

508
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: chunks you want to break it down into. And that's

509
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: how the whole thing worked. But with the wells at Innigac,

510
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: Lisbon and Tuna Lake, you can't drill that deep in

511
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: that amount of time. I can't. I mean, it took

512
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: two years to drill those things. So everything has to

513
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 1: be built just like it would be built if you

514
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: were doing it in Wyoming, you know, in that petroleum

515
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 1: reserve down there, as to all be built out of

516
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 1: rocks and you know, sand and gravel and all that

517
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. So now we get back to Dale

518
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: and me finding the MASA site. Right, you're you're you're

519
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: surprised that I can keep track of this. It's just

520
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:38,239
Speaker 1: phenomenal man, all right. So anyway, Dale and I are

521
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: out there because the engineers what's Dale's name, Slaughter? Dale Slaughter, Uh,

522
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: he was up there when you were up there, when

523
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: you were up at Utica. I was mixing him up

524
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: with Dale. Was a Dale Guthrie that found Dale Guthrie.

525
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: He found a lot of ship coming out of the

526
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 1: perma frost, right like yeah, bison and yeah, yeah, mammoth.

527
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: So any rate, the end engineer said, we need something

528
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: to cap that runway at Lisburne because we have to

529
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 1: have that five thousand foot herk strip there to be

530
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: able to you know, put the well in, and we

531
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 1: need some kind of really resistant rock. Well, all that

532
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:24,240
Speaker 1: rock in that whole general area. The rock that underlay

533
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: is a huge area is referred to his country rock, okay.

534
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 1: In other words, that's that's the rocks that's there, and

535
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 1: da da da da da. That covers everything. It's still subsurface,

536
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: but it's a uniform formation. But right around uh Lisburne, Uh,

537
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 1: there were some igneous intrusions through that country rock. In

538
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: other words, magma had come up, not volcanic, but hard rock,

539
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 1: all right, and they'd surfaced up through the limestone country rock.

540
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 1: And that stuff was hard. This gotta be Perkin Spencer

541
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: right up Spencer and the don't you have a headset on?

542
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: He's still interested and um so that what the engineers

543
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 1: wanted to do was find a good location for that

544
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: stuff and drill it and shoot it, run it through

545
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 1: a crusher, and then the final lift on the airstrip

546
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 1: would be that hard resistant rock. Well. So Dale and

547
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 1: I are out there doing it because all of these

548
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 1: things are upthrusts, you know, they're like maces or ridges

549
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 1: or something like this. Um they're perfect for an archaeological encampment,

550
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 1: for a for use by the you know, prehistoric people,

551
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 1: because you're up high, you've got a great view, you

552
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: can look around the area for a game. You're up

553
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 1: high on the breeze. Bugs aren't going to be too bad.

554
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 1: It's well drained. You're not gonna have to be slopping

555
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 1: around and goosh all the time when it rains. And

556
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: so almost always, and it was the same of those

557
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 1: littler things like cames and came terraces and escers I

558
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 1: was talking about a little while ago. That's where all

559
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: the sites were, and those are the things that all

560
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 1: the engineers wanted to you. So you can see there's

561
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: you know, there's a problem at any rate. So Dale

562
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: and I had been out there all day and it

563
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: was one of those days where it was just lousy.

564
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 1: It wasn't really raining. But you know, this was in

565
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 1: I think early August, and it was probably twenty eight degrees,

566
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:41,720
Speaker 1: about ten knots of wind missed and I mean everything

567
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,839
Speaker 1: was wet. It was cold, you know, there was enough wind,

568
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: so the chill factor was down probably about ten degrees

569
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 1: from the actual ambient temperature just you know, and we've

570
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: been out all day and we were cold. And so

571
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 1: what we had done is we'd flown out all the

572
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 1: way to right to the front edge of the Brooks

573
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,320
Speaker 1: Range where all these igneous in truces were, and we

574
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 1: were working our way back towards where the well site

575
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,879
Speaker 1: was going to be. And so we'd been out there,

576
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: and you work twelve hours a day, so we've been

577
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 1: out there for by that time, about ten hours. We

578
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: climbed up and down stuff. We'd probably watch eight seven

579
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 1: eight miles and we came to this one spot and

580
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 1: there was this beautiful ridge that was right between us

581
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,879
Speaker 1: and the rain, and we said, screw it, man, let's

582
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 1: just sit out here and get out of the weather.

583
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: And we're just gonna take it easy to well, you're

584
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 1: the helicopter coming. And so we were quitting like forty

585
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,800
Speaker 1: five minutes earlier or some So we're sitting there and

586
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: I looked in front of us, and I see what

587
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 1: it's just absolutely per You can look on it. You

588
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: could look on the cover of that thing, all right.

589
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: That's the mason. That's what I see out there, all right,

590
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 1: except I'm looking at it from the back side. I

591
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 1: see that. I think sticks, Oh, I see that. You know,

592
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:10,800
Speaker 1: we're looking at it from the back side, because we

593
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 1: were on the bricks range side of it, and anyway,

594
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: looks like if you're watching a John Wayne Western and

595
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: they always shoot him in that same spot where there's

596
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 1: little sweet maces in the background. It's like that, but

597
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: in the Arctic. So any rate, I said, man, that

598
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: really looks good. I said, We've never looked at that.

599
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 1: So I said, hey, I'm gonna walk across this little

600
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 1: draw here and climb up there and see what's there.

601
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 1: And Dale says, go ahead, I'm I'm staying here. I'm

602
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: staying out of the wind. So I didn't. I climbed

603
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 1: up there, and I came up on the on the

604
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: windward side, which you know, was a prevailing wind, and

605
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: it was fairly well desiccated. There's been a lot of

606
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 1: alien damage up there, erosion. They're blown off a lot

607
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 1: of the vegetation, and so the mineral soil and the

608
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 1: organic soil under the DA there's lots of exposures. So

609
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 1: I'm walking along, I look looking down, I'm seeing flakes,

610
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 1: you know, chirt flakes, the byproducts of making stone tools,

611
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,800
Speaker 1: and I'm looking. I say, well, I was right, you know,

612
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 1: I figured there'd be something up here. And I'm walking.

613
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: All of a sudden, I said, projectile point lying there,

614
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 1: it's broken. I look, man, geez, that looks I could

615
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,439
Speaker 1: be walking around in New Mexico or Colorado and see

616
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 1: this thing. And I think it was a paleo and

617
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,439
Speaker 1: projectile point in other words, you know, terminal place to scene.

618
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: And I thought, huh, well, you occasionally find those kinds

619
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: of things, you know, they're just oddness like that. I

620
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: took about another ten steps and I saw another one,

621
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 1: and then I saw another one. They were all broken,

622
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,359
Speaker 1: but I could but they were the basal portions of them,

623
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 1: which gives you a whole lot of information. And I

624
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 1: found I said, so let's start looking at him. And

625
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 1: they were dead ringers for Paleo Indian projectile plant points

626
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 1: from the high plains of continental US. I mean, I

627
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 1: could have got a basketfull of them and walked out

628
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 1: and started casting them around in New Mexico and Texas

629
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: and Oklahoma and Nebraska and Iowa, and nobody would have

630
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 1: batted an eye when they found him. All right, Oh,

631
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:36,720
Speaker 1: there's another paleo Indian projectile point. So in the meantime,

632
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 1: Dale's been watching me and he sees me all of

633
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: a sudden start bending down, you know, getting up and

634
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 1: walking on, bending down again, and he knew I'd found

635
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 1: something big, and anybody's pissed off because he didn't go

636
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: up there with me, so he can run across the thing.

637
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,240
Speaker 1: And he gets up there and he says, you probably

638
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 1: found all the good stuff already, you know, And I said,

639
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:58,879
Speaker 1: now this, I mean there's you've been up there. There's

640
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 1: a lot of area on top there. So in that

641
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: small and then we hear blappappappap where here comes to

642
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 1: our helicopter to pick us up. So any rate, I

643
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 1: grabbed a few I marked marked where they where I'd

644
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: picked him up, probably five or six of them, and

645
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,359
Speaker 1: stuck him in my back and I took him back

646
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 1: to camp with me and nobody there there. For those

647
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: of you who don't know when I first started out

648
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 1: and how to be an archaeologist school, I was at

649
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 1: Eastern New Mexico University, which is about a five minute

650
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 1: drive from Blackwater Draw which is the Clovis type site.

651
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 1: And that's where I cut my teeth in excuse me,

652
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 1: an archaeology, so I knew Paleo Indian project And just

653
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 1: to be clear for people who might not like understand,

654
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,800
Speaker 1: those things weren't supposed to be there, is that this

655
00:41:54,800 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 1: stylistically occasionally in the Arctic and in the interior of Alaska,

656
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,840
Speaker 1: a point like that might be found in an isolated occurrence,

657
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 1: all right, but no conglomeration, and nobody a lot of

658
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 1: the somebody who might be up here working might publish

659
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 1: a little article that said, and we found two projectial

660
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 1: points that look very reminiscent of projectile points from New

661
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: Mexico at terminal places. Do you mimmy laying out the

662
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 1: great mystery? Real quick? What I want to lay out? This?

663
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 1: What kind of what Brody's getting? Now? I'm gonna lay

664
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: out the great mystery as quickly as possible. Do it? Okay.

665
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 1: There's a long running debate about how long humans have

666
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: been in the Western hemisphere, and there are changing fashions

667
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: to explain how they arrived and how they came to be.

668
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 1: For a while, there was an idea that they entered

669
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 1: in through Alaska, were held up in Alaska for a

670
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 1: long time, and then an ice free corridor opened up

671
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: sort of between the eastern and western ice sheets, and

672
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 1: humans emerged down to the Great Plains around Edmonton, Alberta.

673
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:22,720
Speaker 1: That sounds good. That idea was replaced by an idea

674
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 1: that they came along the coasts. That's a good idea too.

675
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 1: There is long ben For a long time people thought

676
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 1: that Clovis were the Clovis people were the first Americans. Yeah,

677
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:41,439
Speaker 1: now it's better understood that that Clovis was a sort

678
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: of creation of some pre existing population of Americans. I'll

679
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 1: say maybe to that. Maybe I'm not saying I agreed

680
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 1: with you on everything so far, but that because you're you.

681
00:43:56,520 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: When you have a couple sites from thirteen four thousand

682
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 1: years ago, what are the odds that you found the

683
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 1: first place someone dropped something? Right, they're very bad. So

684
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: a lot of mystery about where did these cultures develop

685
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 1: and where they came And because it was first found

686
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 1: in the high plains, this idea emerged. And they agree

687
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 1: with this or not, this idea emerged that these cultures

688
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 1: developed there. So to see these traveled there, yeah, so

689
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 1: to see these diagnostic points of what might have been

690
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 1: the first Americans to enter the New World. Maybe you're

691
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:41,360
Speaker 1: looking at the ship they dropped thousands of years before

692
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 1: anybody made their way down. For a long time, the

693
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 1: oldest site in the New World was in Chile monte Verde.

694
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 1: But there's some now now. The snake rivers beat it.

695
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 1: Some of those sites over there in Idaho are a

696
00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 1: little no the salmon. Is it? The salmon or the snake?

697
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: Where that? Okay, let you take it away. I want

698
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 1: one more sense, Give one more sense. Yeah if if

699
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 1: if linguistically genetically okay, it's well established that the first

700
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 1: Americans came from Siberia in Asia, and your oldest site

701
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:25,360
Speaker 1: is in far South America. There is a lot of

702
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 1: shit between Siberia and South America in which people drop shit. Yeah,

703
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 1: in a number of ways they could have gotten there,

704
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: but no one's found it. So we can find something

705
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 1: really old Alaska. You could for a moment hold out

706
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 1: hope that maybe these were the first people's stuff who

707
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:48,439
Speaker 1: ever stepped foot, and theoretically that stuff would be older Oka,

708
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: the oldest stuff, the oldest stuff in the New World,

709
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:58,399
Speaker 1: by definition, has to be in Alaska. Correct, Yes, that's

710
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 1: totally correct. Believe in UFOs or you believe in the

711
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 1: salutary and hypothesis. Let's don't start talking Dennis Stafford stuff

712
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 1: to me, all right. Jeez, I couldn't believe when when

713
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:16,359
Speaker 1: Dennis got wrapped around the axle on that one. Anyway, Um,

714
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: you're sort of yes and no, all right, Yeah, I'm

715
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 1: little expert there. Well it doesn't matter. There's a lot

716
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 1: of experts suit or yes and no. Okay, So anyway,

717
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 1: let me finish my Masis story, and I don't go

718
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 1: back to this. Okay, Well no, but yeah, because he's

719
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 1: he's the one interrupted you. Yeah, he said, well, why

720
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:38,359
Speaker 1: does that matter? All right? So what I'm gonna say

721
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: is that I still, even though I had all this

722
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 1: experience with Clovis and Paleo Indians and the High Plains

723
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 1: and the Lano Esticado, I still wish wanted somebody to

724
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 1: corroborate this agree with me when I brought this stuff

725
00:46:55,560 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 1: into camp. But nobody up in Alaska had ever worked

726
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 1: with any Paleo Indian stuff because there wasn't any Paleo

727
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: Indian stuff in Alaska, all right. And all the folks

728
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 1: we had working for us at the time, we're from Alaska,

729
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 1: or there's probably a couple that weren't, but had never

730
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 1: had any Paleoindian experience except from one girl citizen Well

731
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 1: was from North Dakota and when she was a junior,

732
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 1: I think it wherever she was going to school in

733
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 1: North Dakota State or something like this. She worked under

734
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 1: Surrey crew and that's in Paleo Indian country down there.

735
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:39,839
Speaker 1: I mean, if you find old stuff, that's what you're

736
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 1: going to find. And so I asked Susan, I said, hey, hey,

737
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 1: what do you think? And she said that looks just

738
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 1: like Paleo Indian stuff. I didn't I didn't prime her

739
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:53,320
Speaker 1: or anything. I just said what do you think of this?

740
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 1: And that's the first words out of her mouth. And

741
00:47:56,000 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 1: then I said, hallelujah, all right because that confirmed for

742
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 1: me that I was absolutely right. So any rate, we

743
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:14,360
Speaker 1: then well immediately said to the engineers, not doing this.

744
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 1: And then the site we were already excavating, we had

745
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 1: found some other stuff that was really important, and we said, uh,

746
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:26,320
Speaker 1: you're not doing this. So they ended up getting a

747
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 1: special permit from the core engineers to actually mine gravel

748
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 1: out of oh Tuck Creek near the airstrip there to

749
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:40,800
Speaker 1: use as the overlayment the final lift on the runway.

750
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 1: Because all the preferred materials were burdened by archaeological sites

751
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: and um, so that's that's how the mason was found

752
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 1: and how it survived. Give a couple, because there's so

753
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,359
Speaker 1: many other things I want to touch on. Give a couple. UM,

754
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:01,479
Speaker 1: give a recap with a significant stuff like what want

755
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 1: to be in the dates, the abundance, what were they

756
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 1: doing up there? Most except for fairly recent prehistoric sites,

757
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 1: and these would be residential sites, all right, You like villages, Um,

758
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 1: you don't get a lot of horse fires remnants of fires,

759
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 1: and that's what you want to date most. That's what

760
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 1: you if you have your druthers, that's what you want

761
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 1: to date. Are those remnants of those fires, the charcoal

762
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: and those fires. You have to have an organic substance. Well, yeah,

763
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 1: you can't date you can't date a rock. But if

764
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:46,760
Speaker 1: you're dating these these these camp fires, right or cooking fires,

765
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 1: you're you know, you're dating something that people did. This

766
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:53,320
Speaker 1: isn't you know, a wildfire remnant or you know, a

767
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:56,839
Speaker 1: lightning strike or something. This is people fires, all right,

768
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 1: So you're dating what they did and what the date

769
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 1: you get back is going to be related pretty directly

770
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,319
Speaker 1: to them, to their occupation of that spot at that time.

771
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 1: But the Mason was not a habitation site. It was

772
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:22,359
Speaker 1: a game hunting lookout. And well, what was taking place

773
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,720
Speaker 1: there was the guys, mostly guys, were up there on top,

774
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 1: sitting around these little fires, warming fires, you know, keeping

775
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 1: an eye out there. You can see for miles from

776
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:36,839
Speaker 1: up there, as you know, keeping a lookout for game.

777
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 1: And they're working on their hunting equipment, their work, you know,

778
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:44,320
Speaker 1: taking to busted projectile points out of the out of

779
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 1: the half and putting new ones in. They what they

780
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 1: did was even the ones that they could resharpen when

781
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:53,320
Speaker 1: they broke on a hunting expedition, if enough of it

782
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 1: was sticking out of the half, they just resharpen it

783
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 1: real quickly and a half. So you find a lot

784
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:01,279
Speaker 1: of these stubby things that were thrown away. You can

785
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 1: see the point is made exactly right up until just

786
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 1: about here, and then all of a sudden it goes

787
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 1: like that, and you say, wait a minute, it's been

788
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:11,279
Speaker 1: very sharpened, all right. But once they got to a

789
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 1: place like the Mesa where they could do work on

790
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:15,879
Speaker 1: their stuff, they threw them away all right and made

791
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 1: new ones and put them in. So at any rate,

792
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 1: that place was used so much. And I'm grasping at

793
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 1: a number here, but it'll be close, or it'll say

794
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:33,359
Speaker 1: right in that the book I left you, we found

795
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:39,919
Speaker 1: pretty damn near fifty camps fires up there. I don't

796
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 1: know if you took most, if you took all of

797
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 1: the Paleo Indian camp fires that have been found in

798
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 1: all the Paleo Indian sites in New Mexico and Colorado,

799
00:51:55,800 --> 00:52:00,080
Speaker 1: it wouldn't total fifty. So I mean, this was like,

800
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 1: Holy God, I can't believe that. Now. We didn't know

801
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 1: this right away. We didn't know until we started excavating.

802
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 1: There fifty horrors that we can date. Every one of

803
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 1: these horrors has flint, you know, chips thrown into it,

804
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 1: you know, from when they were working on things. Some

805
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 1: of the times they just pulled an old, busted point

806
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 1: out at the end of the thing and just tossed

807
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 1: it into the fire. And so a lot of these

808
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:35,399
Speaker 1: these projectile points, broken projectile points have potland fractures on them.

809
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:39,400
Speaker 1: And a potland fracture occurs when you heat chirt to

810
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:46,239
Speaker 1: a certain point, all right, it'll fracture like this because

811
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 1: chirt and flint's the same way. Has a physical property

812
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 1: called conchoidal fracture. That's what allows you to make to

813
00:52:56,320 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 1: flake them because you you know that that you whack it,

814
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 1: and that flake is going to come over off of there.

815
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 1: You'll know how it comes all you. Ever remember when

816
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 1: you're a kid and you shot the window with your

817
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 1: BB gun, Sure made a little hole in front and

818
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:13,799
Speaker 1: this cone shaped thing behind it. Now, when I shot

819
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:16,839
Speaker 1: Joe Suki's windshield with the Daisy red Rider. All right,

820
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 1: but you know what I'm talking You know what I'm

821
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 1: talking about, right, all right? That cone shaped thing, Well,

822
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 1: that glass is cryptocrystalline, just like shirt or flint or obsidian,

823
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 1: and has the property of conchoidal fracture. It's controllable. It

824
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,279
Speaker 1: depends on the angle you hit it at, how hard

825
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 1: you hit it, what you hit it with, whether it's

826
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: soft hammer or hard hammer. And once you get to

827
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:45,719
Speaker 1: know how to do this, you can make any damn

828
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 1: thing you want out of stone. I mean, you can

829
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:51,440
Speaker 1: make any shape you want, all right, That's how it works.

830
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 1: And so when you heat these things up to a

831
00:53:54,719 --> 00:54:00,719
Speaker 1: certain point, it'll pop a flake off and it'll pot

832
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:04,880
Speaker 1: and that conchoidal fracture principle works the same way so

833
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:11,279
Speaker 1: you'll get these rounded pitch shape, you know, holes, you know,

834
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:14,239
Speaker 1: maybe the size of your thumbnail or some depending on

835
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:17,320
Speaker 1: how big the piece of shirt was. In the surface

836
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 1: of the thing. The only way they can get there

837
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 1: like that is by heat. It's a heat fracture. And

838
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 1: so even if, for example, that hearth over the years,

839
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:32,840
Speaker 1: it all blew away, all the charcoal blew away, everything

840
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:37,239
Speaker 1: blew away, but the heat fracture projectile point didn't blow

841
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 1: away because it was too heavy. And so you've excavated

842
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 1: ten thousand years later and scooping it up there, and

843
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 1: you pick it up and you see that conchoidal fracture

844
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 1: right in the middle of it there. You know that

845
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:53,239
Speaker 1: it had to be heat fractured, and that means it

846
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 1: had to be definitely associated with some kind of heat.

847
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:59,800
Speaker 1: And if there's no evidence for wildfire or grass fire

848
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:03,359
Speaker 1: or anything else in the sub soil of the site

849
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 1: you're digging, there's only one answer. It got done that

850
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:12,479
Speaker 1: way because it ended up in the campfire. So there's

851
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 1: all these interpretive things that have to go along with

852
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 1: all of this, and you got to do archaeology for

853
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:20,759
Speaker 1: quite a while before you pick up on all this

854
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 1: stuff and archaeologists are the first forensic scientists, all right,

855
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:32,799
Speaker 1: but instead of their clues being six hours old, they're

856
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,359
Speaker 1: six thousand years old. And so back in the old

857
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:39,279
Speaker 1: days for example, in fact, at the beginning of my career,

858
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 1: it was still happening. Forensic police worker never hadn't been developed.

859
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:47,200
Speaker 1: And when the police, the local police department, and run

860
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:50,440
Speaker 1: into something that we're talking that was sort of inexplicable,

861
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 1: is some kind of a clue they knew, but they

862
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 1: didn't know what, they call up the local university and

863
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 1: have archaeologists go down to look at it to see

864
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 1: what they could tell them. After archaeologists were doing that

865
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:04,359
Speaker 1: for him for a while, somebody came up to the idea, Hey,

866
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 1: why didn't we just train our own guys to think

867
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 1: that way and do that stuff, so we don't get

868
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 1: to do that anymore. But the beginning of my career

869
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 1: I got asked to do a couple of things like that,

870
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 1: and it was really neat. It was interesting, you know,

871
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:21,759
Speaker 1: to kind of get out of the contexts of archaeology

872
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 1: and use those same skills too, you know, answer a

873
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 1: different question. Is it possible that those uh folks up

874
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:34,799
Speaker 1: there we're watching for mammoth's or does it not line

875
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:39,400
Speaker 1: up time wise? The old estate from the MESA calendar

876
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 1: year date is thirteen thousand and six hundred and sixty

877
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:49,120
Speaker 1: years ago. There's another one that's eleven thousand, two hundred

878
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:55,560
Speaker 1: years ago. In terms of our all the paleontological work

879
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:59,440
Speaker 1: that we did up there that Pam Dan and I didn't,

880
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:02,279
Speaker 1: I wasn't directly well, I was directly involved in it

881
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 1: because I was funding it. But we did not find

882
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:11,560
Speaker 1: any mammoth remains that were that recent. I think the

883
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 1: most recent mammoths we found was about maybe fifteen or sixteen. Yeah,

884
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:23,200
Speaker 1: what game do you think that they were looking at? Then? Caribou,

885
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:29,880
Speaker 1: dire wolves, deer, bison. But I wouldn't be after dire wolves.

886
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 1: But no dire wolves ever existed in uh, you know,

887
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 1: the North America, in the western hemisphere. There were no

888
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 1: dire wolves over here. That's like a tribute question. Wrong,

889
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:47,360
Speaker 1: that's embarrassing. Fields um Cariboo had been around forever, all right,

890
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 1: Uh Bison, bison priscus. Uh, there was never any modern

891
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:56,240
Speaker 1: bison up here, at least not as far as there's

892
00:57:56,280 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 1: a real there's there's sort of this developmental transition with bison.

893
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 1: Bison priscus was the was the place to see bison,

894
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 1: the rootstock, all right. There was never any evolution of

895
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 1: bison in the Arctic like there was down in the

896
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:22,480
Speaker 1: in North America. All right, there are bison priscus down there,

897
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:27,720
Speaker 1: but there's also bison ladder frons, bison oxenden talas, and

898
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 1: bison antiquis. All of those evolved out of bison priscus

899
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:39,160
Speaker 1: down there. But up in Alaska in the Arctic, that

900
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 1: that progression of evolution never happened. It was always bison priscus.

901
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:47,440
Speaker 1: And when were they still on the ground at that point, Yes, okay,

902
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 1: there were Our most recent bison was ten thousand years horse.

903
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 1: There was probably there were probably still some horses around

904
00:58:58,040 --> 00:59:00,400
Speaker 1: and that was a big game game at well, you

905
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:05,440
Speaker 1: think they are hunting bears. No, they we don't have

906
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:12,240
Speaker 1: any evidence of them. There are two kinds of bears.

907
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:15,919
Speaker 1: There are short faced bears and there are grizzly bears.

908
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:23,800
Speaker 1: Same grizzly bear we have today. There were lions, the

909
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 1: European cave lion pantera. That was over here, all right,

910
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 1: Um spilea, pan spilea, Thank you whoever sent that to me.

911
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:45,240
Speaker 1: And they were predators are in such small numbers and

912
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:53,160
Speaker 1: compared to herbivores. The other thing is anybody nobody's going

913
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:55,920
Speaker 1: to go out after a lion with a piece of

914
00:59:56,440 --> 00:59:58,840
Speaker 1: flint on the end of a stick that's this long,

915
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:05,440
Speaker 1: all right? Um, the same for the bears. So we

916
01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 1: don't have any evidence of those kinds of place to

917
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 1: see megafauna from archaeological sites in Alaska. What was your question, Spencer?

918
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:19,240
Speaker 1: Can I argue with you for a second. I googled

919
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 1: it while we were sitting here, says in North America,

920
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 1: dire wolves have been found as far north as Alaska

921
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:31,040
Speaker 1: and down into southern Mexico National Park Services. Then how

922
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:33,920
Speaker 1: far does Alaska go down? And how far is that more?

923
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:36,520
Speaker 1: He's talking about the Arctic? No, sure, I didn't say that.

924
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:39,200
Speaker 1: I was just asking if they've ever been found there.

925
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:42,960
Speaker 1: We've never found dire wolves and part of Alaska that

926
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:47,480
Speaker 1: I've worked in, and I still would take issue with

927
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 1: the Park Service on dire wolves being Now, so this

928
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:53,640
Speaker 1: this tattoo right here, and now I was referring to

929
01:00:53,720 --> 01:01:01,000
Speaker 1: his tattoosdence hold on this tattoo thousand years old. We'll

930
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 1: come around that that is the cattle brand for the

931
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:08,360
Speaker 1: original owners of the Librea tarpet and when I was there,

932
01:01:08,640 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 1: I was it was one of the things that moved

933
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:13,520
Speaker 1: me so much was seeing it was like a hundred

934
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:17,560
Speaker 1: dire wolve skulls that they have extracted from the Librea tarpets.

935
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:19,760
Speaker 1: That's that was the inspiration from my skull wall hit

936
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:21,720
Speaker 1: me like a diamond. That's where I went with beautiful.

937
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:24,280
Speaker 1: My first day with my wife was a tarts. So anyway,

938
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:27,880
Speaker 1: what are they extracting? Then? If they're not dire wolves,

939
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:33,919
Speaker 1: I should I should actually back step. There are none

940
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:39,240
Speaker 1: in Alaska. To my National Park Services, there are all right,

941
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:46,480
Speaker 1: I have to say. Since I didn't work in that area,

942
01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:50,240
Speaker 1: I don't know. But I was of the opinion since

943
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:54,280
Speaker 1: I had never read anything about that, that there were

944
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:59,720
Speaker 1: dire wolves in the Western hemisphere. So that's my answer.

945
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:04,600
Speaker 1: But I don't know everything is you're finding out. I

946
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:08,480
Speaker 1: want to move on to polar bears. Yeah, ask him

947
01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 1: a question about the points? Yeah, man, is there any

948
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:16,200
Speaker 1: way to infer This is Yanni, Papa Yanni, this is Yanni.

949
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:24,920
Speaker 1: Thank you, Ah. What percentage of these people that were

950
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:28,320
Speaker 1: there hunting making these points? What percentage of them had

951
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:30,880
Speaker 1: the skills to make the point or is that just

952
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:34,240
Speaker 1: every single one of them unknown, every single one of them.

953
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:40,680
Speaker 1: In fact, I think you asked them. I'm gonna jump

954
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:45,680
Speaker 1: away forward thousands of years to escam Okay, if you're

955
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:51,160
Speaker 1: living out in the middle of Arctic Alaska, and we'll

956
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:56,120
Speaker 1: say especially in the wintertime, but it could be where

957
01:02:56,160 --> 01:03:00,720
Speaker 1: it's dark all the time, you can't see anything or

958
01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:02,920
Speaker 1: very little. I mean when I say it's dark all

959
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:06,880
Speaker 1: the time, it gets to be twilight, but that's about

960
01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:10,320
Speaker 1: the best it gets for a long time, especially if

961
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:19,560
Speaker 1: you're north of seventy degrees latitude. The winter encampments were

962
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:25,680
Speaker 1: small because there weren't enough resources for a family, and

963
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:28,760
Speaker 1: the families were small as well to be able to

964
01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:32,560
Speaker 1: survive through the winter. If you had more than two

965
01:03:32,640 --> 01:03:35,480
Speaker 1: or three families living in the same place, I mean,

966
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:41,560
Speaker 1: you'd use up a big wool patch for your firewood fast. Okay.

967
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:48,440
Speaker 1: So if the men have to leave to go out, honey,

968
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:52,040
Speaker 1: you try and always camp someplace where there's a reliable

969
01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:58,120
Speaker 1: food resource. That's why most of these winter encampments occur

970
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:00,720
Speaker 1: on the shores of a big lake that has a

971
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:03,680
Speaker 1: reliable fish resource in it. So you can at least

972
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:08,600
Speaker 1: get fished through the ice. Also, hopefully caribou migrate through

973
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:12,520
Speaker 1: there in the fall and by this lake, so you

974
01:04:12,720 --> 01:04:16,120
Speaker 1: also have a cariboo resource. But if the cariboo don't

975
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:19,280
Speaker 1: show up, you've always got that lake with a fish

976
01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:24,320
Speaker 1: resource that you can get through. So Dad goes off

977
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:27,040
Speaker 1: to do something with say two or three of the

978
01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:31,680
Speaker 1: other men, and that maybe all of it were in

979
01:04:31,840 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 1: that encampment, go off, do a little honey. That leaves

980
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:41,200
Speaker 1: the women there all by themselves. Now commonly what they

981
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:46,800
Speaker 1: would do would be set little snares for ptarmigan and

982
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:50,680
Speaker 1: other smaller critters like that, But there's no guarantee you're

983
01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:53,520
Speaker 1: going to get them. What if the guys don't come

984
01:04:53,560 --> 01:04:57,320
Speaker 1: back or don't come back for a long while, or

985
01:04:57,520 --> 01:05:00,120
Speaker 1: vice verse of what if the guys go out, they

986
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:03,240
Speaker 1: ripped their parka and they're in any woman there to

987
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:09,720
Speaker 1: sew it up. Every single adult Eskimo could do every

988
01:05:09,840 --> 01:05:12,760
Speaker 1: single thing there was to do to be able to live.

989
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:16,400
Speaker 1: The men may not have been the greatest seamstresses in

990
01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:19,240
Speaker 1: the in the world, but I guarantee you they could

991
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:22,400
Speaker 1: fix anything that ripped or tour or anything else. They

992
01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:24,640
Speaker 1: could do anything that women could do except to have

993
01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:29,240
Speaker 1: a baby, of course. But and the women, they could

994
01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:32,400
Speaker 1: make a projectile point, they could make a you know,

995
01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:39,400
Speaker 1: lester point. They had to be able to because there's

996
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:41,960
Speaker 1: no way they're going to survive if you didn't. So,

997
01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:50,480
Speaker 1: in my opinion, that evidence is transferable as far back

998
01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:52,840
Speaker 1: as you want to go in the Arctic. If you

999
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:55,360
Speaker 1: want to go up five thousand years, ten thousand years,

1000
01:05:55,440 --> 01:06:01,600
Speaker 1: fifteen thousand years adults, every adult could do everything you

1001
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:14,040
Speaker 1: needed to do to be able to stay alone. Was

1002
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:17,160
Speaker 1: the chart that they were using really abundant up there?

1003
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:20,080
Speaker 1: Did they have to source it from some far away place?

1004
01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:24,360
Speaker 1: Everybody that I ever had up there, like Tony Baker

1005
01:06:24,480 --> 01:06:26,240
Speaker 1: was one of the first ones to make that. He

1006
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:29,360
Speaker 1: hadn't been up there the first time he came up

1007
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:31,480
Speaker 1: to work with me. He hadn't been up there ten minutes,

1008
01:06:31,520 --> 01:06:34,440
Speaker 1: and he didn't before. He said, I can't believe the

1009
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:40,200
Speaker 1: chirt up there. It's everywhere. He said, if this was

1010
01:06:40,240 --> 01:06:43,480
Speaker 1: done in New Mexico, they wouldn't have thrown that stuff away,

1011
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:45,720
Speaker 1: you know, the big waist flakes and stuff like that.

1012
01:06:45,760 --> 01:06:47,400
Speaker 1: And I said, I know, Tony, That's where I went

1013
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:51,960
Speaker 1: to school in New Mexico. The reason is is because

1014
01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:58,960
Speaker 1: chert in the Arctic, especially within the petroleum reserve, because

1015
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:03,520
Speaker 1: it's a sediment rock, it forms that way. It is

1016
01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:08,400
Speaker 1: totally ubiquitous. It is everywhere. You can find it in

1017
01:07:09,200 --> 01:07:12,919
Speaker 1: every gravel source, you can find it in every stream bed,

1018
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:17,000
Speaker 1: you can find it everywhere. Anybody that I ever brought

1019
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:21,760
Speaker 1: up that was already an archaeologist from you know, down south,

1020
01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 1: would say, I can't believe this. God, this stuff is

1021
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:29,800
Speaker 1: laying it well, you know, I mean they'd pick up

1022
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:32,880
Speaker 1: five big pieces and say, you'd never find this on

1023
01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:37,000
Speaker 1: an archaeological site down there. They use this stuff because

1024
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:40,320
Speaker 1: there's chunks is big. You know, you could have made

1025
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:43,360
Speaker 1: three projectile points out of it. But the stuff is

1026
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:47,400
Speaker 1: like growing on every tree up there. So people just

1027
01:07:47,560 --> 01:07:51,120
Speaker 1: took the best, just used what they wanted, didn't worry about.

1028
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:53,640
Speaker 1: The only time you might have an issue would be

1029
01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:57,439
Speaker 1: in the wintertime when you can't really access it too well.

1030
01:07:57,800 --> 01:08:01,040
Speaker 1: But people were probably making a supply, all right. They

1031
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:04,560
Speaker 1: during the summer, you know, the good months, they'd make

1032
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:08,080
Speaker 1: what we call preforms. They'd make a you know byface

1033
01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:13,000
Speaker 1: preform about like this, yeah, well not even that big,

1034
01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:16,639
Speaker 1: just you know, like about like this, and you could

1035
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:20,040
Speaker 1: use then use that to make almost anything and anything,

1036
01:08:20,360 --> 01:08:25,280
Speaker 1: anything big and anything small. All right, the wate flakes,

1037
01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:28,000
Speaker 1: you could make them out on the waste flakes. So

1038
01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:30,680
Speaker 1: that would be the only the only instance where you

1039
01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:34,800
Speaker 1: just literally could not find. Now there are spots where

1040
01:08:35,280 --> 01:08:39,120
Speaker 1: there isn't any, but by and large, it's just everywhere.

1041
01:08:40,120 --> 01:08:44,120
Speaker 1: So you keep saying, make anything. The only thing I've

1042
01:08:44,240 --> 01:08:47,600
Speaker 1: seen or heard of is that there's points for projectiles.

1043
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:55,040
Speaker 1: What else did they make? Scrapers, hide scrapers, knives not

1044
01:08:56,120 --> 01:09:02,400
Speaker 1: Usually those were made out of bone. Whatever. Anything to

1045
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:05,240
Speaker 1: do with selling was pretty much made out of out

1046
01:09:05,280 --> 01:09:09,559
Speaker 1: of bone or antler. Well, no, what's that spoke? What's

1047
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:12,160
Speaker 1: you guys are talking about? A spokeshaver? So a spokeshave

1048
01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:14,200
Speaker 1: Well that's different, I know, but I'm just trying to

1049
01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:18,200
Speaker 1: save myself. You didn't do a real good job, but

1050
01:09:18,320 --> 01:09:23,519
Speaker 1: I'll let it go any rate. So, um, there are

1051
01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:27,559
Speaker 1: things called burns. I mean, i'd have to go into

1052
01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:32,080
Speaker 1: a description gravers. Graver was like a Marlin spike. When

1053
01:09:32,200 --> 01:09:35,040
Speaker 1: guys are working on their equipment and they have to

1054
01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:39,519
Speaker 1: undo knots that they made to half your wrapping stuff

1055
01:09:39,560 --> 01:09:42,519
Speaker 1: in a half a knife or a projectable point. They

1056
01:09:42,600 --> 01:09:45,639
Speaker 1: have these little things called gravers which have these little

1057
01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:47,519
Speaker 1: pronks sticking out on them, and they're you're used just

1058
01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:50,559
Speaker 1: like sailors use a marlin spike. They're used to undo

1059
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:54,840
Speaker 1: a knot, all right, so you can whatever that knot

1060
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:57,200
Speaker 1: is holding in place, you can get it out or

1061
01:09:57,320 --> 01:10:00,599
Speaker 1: get it away. So there's all kinds of different things

1062
01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:05,960
Speaker 1: that projectile points were not the primary thing that we're made.

1063
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:11,519
Speaker 1: These sort of semi formal tools that you just needed

1064
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:15,720
Speaker 1: for everyday. Use things to slice hide with it, or

1065
01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:22,000
Speaker 1: slice made or make holes for sewing, or you know,

1066
01:10:22,160 --> 01:10:25,439
Speaker 1: all of this kind of stuff. So there's an all

1067
01:10:31,560 --> 01:10:36,160
Speaker 1: in the back of his head. Okay, go ahead, it'll

1068
01:10:36,200 --> 01:10:38,160
Speaker 1: be quick. It's a yes or no. Did they make

1069
01:10:38,200 --> 01:10:41,200
Speaker 1: any big stuff like hatchet heads or large spear points

1070
01:10:41,360 --> 01:10:45,120
Speaker 1: or it depends on where they were there at a time.

1071
01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:47,960
Speaker 1: There were warmer periods up there. I mean we find

1072
01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:53,320
Speaker 1: buried spruce stumps up there. Uh you know, but there

1073
01:10:53,360 --> 01:10:55,640
Speaker 1: are one hundred and fifty thousand years old when it

1074
01:10:55,800 --> 01:11:02,200
Speaker 1: was warmer up there. We find beaver chewed sticks, all right,

1075
01:11:02,520 --> 01:11:04,479
Speaker 1: But if you dated when it's gonna be over one

1076
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:07,800
Speaker 1: hundred and forty five or over forty five thousand years old.

1077
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:13,720
Speaker 1: So um, you know what, mostly when humans were there,

1078
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:16,440
Speaker 1: there just wasn't anything that was big enough to require

1079
01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:20,760
Speaker 1: an axe or ads or and they didn't they didn't

1080
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:24,120
Speaker 1: hollow out logs to make boats. They were all skin

1081
01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:26,320
Speaker 1: boats made on us. So what were they burning and

1082
01:11:26,400 --> 01:11:31,599
Speaker 1: the fires you guys were founding? Okay, will you know what? Yeah,

1083
01:11:32,040 --> 01:11:34,080
Speaker 1: probably something would need A big point would be a

1084
01:11:35,120 --> 01:11:37,320
Speaker 1: that what you're gonna say. I was gonna tell Brody's

1085
01:11:37,320 --> 01:11:39,760
Speaker 1: something interesting when I'm talking about the trees. How you'll

1086
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:43,120
Speaker 1: find trees but then they're super old, you know, because

1087
01:11:43,160 --> 01:11:45,840
Speaker 1: like things constantly change when you're when you're looking, like

1088
01:11:45,920 --> 01:11:49,320
Speaker 1: when you get up around the northern tree line, like

1089
01:11:49,439 --> 01:11:53,200
Speaker 1: you're going up in the Brooks Range and you see, uh,

1090
01:11:54,760 --> 01:11:57,360
Speaker 1: what looks like you'll you'll see bands of trees. You know,

1091
01:11:58,200 --> 01:11:59,760
Speaker 1: at a point you'd be like, well, there's the last

1092
01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:02,320
Speaker 1: tree you were going to look at, and then there's

1093
01:12:02,360 --> 01:12:05,439
Speaker 1: gonna be no more trees to the north. In your head,

1094
01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:10,000
Speaker 1: you're like that tree is advancing. No, you think like

1095
01:12:10,080 --> 01:12:12,560
Speaker 1: a point like, oh, look at he's growing out, like

1096
01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:18,680
Speaker 1: he's heading a peer. Yeah, he's a survivor, right, you know,

1097
01:12:18,960 --> 01:12:23,559
Speaker 1: he's like hanging on man, like his buddies are all dead. Yeah, okay,

1098
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:26,800
Speaker 1: you ready talking about polar bears. I recently, we've been

1099
01:12:26,920 --> 01:12:28,639
Speaker 1: we were wanting to talk about this long time ago.

1100
01:12:29,640 --> 01:12:34,400
Speaker 1: There was recently an article where a he's some kind

1101
01:12:34,439 --> 01:12:45,000
Speaker 1: of population ecologist or someone was discussing that his information

1102
01:12:45,080 --> 01:12:51,360
Speaker 1: about polar bear population dynamics was being labeled misinformation online. Oh,

1103
01:12:51,680 --> 01:12:55,040
Speaker 1: I know, because he was saying that polar bear numbers

1104
01:12:55,320 --> 01:13:01,320
Speaker 1: are strong and growing and a lot of the they

1105
01:13:01,360 --> 01:13:05,720
Speaker 1: have become an emblematic megafauna for climate change. Yeah, and

1106
01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:08,719
Speaker 1: a lot of they've become a poster boy for climate change.

1107
01:13:09,080 --> 01:13:13,760
Speaker 1: And the narrative is is that as climate change continues,

1108
01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:17,080
Speaker 1: we will lose the polar bear. The polar bear will

1109
01:13:17,080 --> 01:13:21,360
Speaker 1: be this emblematic loss of a charismatic species because of

1110
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:27,160
Speaker 1: climate change, and many it annoys many climate change activists

1111
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:36,680
Speaker 1: that they're not vanishing, and they get embarrassed by the

1112
01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:40,000
Speaker 1: fact that polar bear numbers are strong, and so by

1113
01:13:40,080 --> 01:13:44,120
Speaker 1: pointing out that polar bears are doing fine, you are

1114
01:13:44,360 --> 01:13:49,000
Speaker 1: you become accused of of misinformation. Not because it's misinformation,

1115
01:13:49,120 --> 01:13:54,639
Speaker 1: but it's it's it's not helpful propaganda. Okay, you're talking

1116
01:13:54,640 --> 01:13:58,200
Speaker 1: about Lomberg, and we sent this to you to say,

1117
01:13:58,560 --> 01:14:00,519
Speaker 1: what do you think about all this? Yeah, okay, I

1118
01:14:00,640 --> 01:14:03,880
Speaker 1: can tell you. And I was given a very biased telling. Okay,

1119
01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:10,160
Speaker 1: I can tell you. Okay. Lomberg said, essentially, if polar

1120
01:14:10,240 --> 01:14:16,320
Speaker 1: bearers are on the way out, how come the population

1121
01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:19,000
Speaker 1: is four or five times as great as it was

1122
01:14:19,080 --> 01:14:22,720
Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties or nineteen seventies. That's what he said.

1123
01:14:24,400 --> 01:14:27,920
Speaker 1: That was a and I know he knows this, but

1124
01:14:28,240 --> 01:14:30,720
Speaker 1: he's on the other side of the coin, Okay, in

1125
01:14:30,960 --> 01:14:36,960
Speaker 1: terms of climate change, like he has an ax to grind, well,

1126
01:14:37,000 --> 01:14:43,519
Speaker 1: he's grinding an axe. Because that is deliberately a disingenuous comment, okay.

1127
01:14:43,600 --> 01:14:48,040
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna tell you why. Please. Back in the

1128
01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:55,920
Speaker 1: sixties and into the very very early seventies, there were

1129
01:14:56,040 --> 01:15:03,800
Speaker 1: basically no controls on recreational hunting of polar bears. The

1130
01:15:03,960 --> 01:15:07,479
Speaker 1: reason that the worldwide population was down to around four

1131
01:15:07,600 --> 01:15:12,479
Speaker 1: or five thousand was because of uncontrolled hunting, all right,

1132
01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:20,479
Speaker 1: trophy hunting. All the countries that had polar bears, in

1133
01:15:20,560 --> 01:15:26,320
Speaker 1: other words, had Arctic sea ice parts, you know, exposures

1134
01:15:26,360 --> 01:15:29,720
Speaker 1: on their countries got together and they said, we need

1135
01:15:29,800 --> 01:15:32,680
Speaker 1: to do something about this. This is in like I say,

1136
01:15:33,400 --> 01:15:37,880
Speaker 1: the end of the sixties, beginning of the seventies, and

1137
01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:42,720
Speaker 1: our kin and they did, and our country too, I

1138
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:49,000
Speaker 1: guess you could call them. Landmark regulations were passed, the

1139
01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:55,200
Speaker 1: Marine Mammals Protection Act and the Endangered Species Act, and

1140
01:15:56,040 --> 01:16:01,280
Speaker 1: that those banned any commercial hunting polar bears in the

1141
01:16:02,080 --> 01:16:05,800
Speaker 1: United States. It's stopped as of nineteen seventy two, when

1142
01:16:05,840 --> 01:16:10,320
Speaker 1: those when that legislation seventy three seventy two, when that

1143
01:16:10,479 --> 01:16:19,040
Speaker 1: legislation was passed. Natives Alaska natives can do it for special,

1144
01:16:19,200 --> 01:16:25,040
Speaker 1: specific cultural reasons, all right, but there has to be

1145
01:16:25,200 --> 01:16:26,720
Speaker 1: I mean, it has to be a good reason, all right.

1146
01:16:28,080 --> 01:16:38,000
Speaker 1: So as a result of that, polar bear populations started growing.

1147
01:16:40,280 --> 01:16:45,320
Speaker 1: So why are polar bears on the Threatened and Endangered

1148
01:16:45,360 --> 01:16:49,720
Speaker 1: Species Act and a Marine Mammals Protection Act if the

1149
01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:54,400
Speaker 1: population is growing, Because it is. There's somewhere between probably

1150
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:59,280
Speaker 1: ten and fourteen thousand polar bears now in that what

1151
01:16:59,479 --> 01:17:05,479
Speaker 1: thirty four year span of time. The reason that they

1152
01:17:05,560 --> 01:17:09,920
Speaker 1: are considered threatened or endangered has nothing to do with

1153
01:17:10,040 --> 01:17:14,280
Speaker 1: their population at all. It has to do with habitat loss,

1154
01:17:15,439 --> 01:17:21,720
Speaker 1: and as the temperatures warm, both in the atmosphere and

1155
01:17:22,280 --> 01:17:28,960
Speaker 1: in the seawater, sea ice diminishes, they're threatened and endangered

1156
01:17:29,080 --> 01:17:31,479
Speaker 1: because they aren't going to have any place to live.

1157
01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:38,200
Speaker 1: I can give you a personal, a personal example of

1158
01:17:38,320 --> 01:17:43,479
Speaker 1: that when we were remember we talked about earlier one

1159
01:17:43,520 --> 01:17:46,080
Speaker 1: of the deepest well on the north slope twenty one

1160
01:17:46,120 --> 01:17:51,920
Speaker 1: thousand feet well, we found a couple of archaeological sites

1161
01:17:52,320 --> 01:17:55,920
Speaker 1: where the engineers wanted to put the herk strip for

1162
01:17:56,000 --> 01:17:59,680
Speaker 1: the Tna Lick Well site. And we're right out near

1163
01:17:59,720 --> 01:18:02,599
Speaker 1: the coast, and so we were excavating those to get

1164
01:18:02,640 --> 01:18:04,280
Speaker 1: them out of the way so they could go ahead

1165
01:18:04,320 --> 01:18:08,080
Speaker 1: and build a HIRK trip. And we were looking right

1166
01:18:08,160 --> 01:18:16,320
Speaker 1: out at Icy Cape, all right. And Icy Cape is

1167
01:18:16,439 --> 01:18:20,720
Speaker 1: kind of you come up through the Bearing straight all right,

1168
01:18:21,280 --> 01:18:26,240
Speaker 1: going north. Then you want to turn to go to Barrow,

1169
01:18:26,479 --> 01:18:29,799
Speaker 1: all right, to go to Alaska and Art of Canada.

1170
01:18:30,720 --> 01:18:34,600
Speaker 1: So you turn east, turn right up there, you go

1171
01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:37,439
Speaker 1: around Icy Cape, and then you go right up the

1172
01:18:37,520 --> 01:18:40,800
Speaker 1: coast to Barrow and Barter Island, and you know, you

1173
01:18:40,880 --> 01:18:45,160
Speaker 1: get into the Canadian Arctic. But Icy Cape was named

1174
01:18:45,320 --> 01:18:51,320
Speaker 1: for a reason. It was icy what happened very frequently.

1175
01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:57,799
Speaker 1: There was that the sea ice never cleared out, lasted

1176
01:18:57,880 --> 01:19:02,320
Speaker 1: all summer long, and so there was no way to

1177
01:19:02,479 --> 01:19:05,439
Speaker 1: get around the corner to get into the rest of

1178
01:19:05,479 --> 01:19:08,320
Speaker 1: the Arctic to the east. You couldn't get through there.

1179
01:19:08,720 --> 01:19:13,960
Speaker 1: The sea ice stayed there all summer, you know, it

1180
01:19:14,040 --> 01:19:15,840
Speaker 1: was there all winner and it was there all summer.

1181
01:19:16,920 --> 01:19:22,120
Speaker 1: That didn't happen every single summer, but it happened relatively frequently.

1182
01:19:22,760 --> 01:19:25,240
Speaker 1: When they were trying to develop Prudeo Bay. There were

1183
01:19:25,400 --> 01:19:28,640
Speaker 1: summers where all this stuff's coming up from Seattle on

1184
01:19:28,760 --> 01:19:32,200
Speaker 1: these huge barges, these huge module camp units and everything.

1185
01:19:34,080 --> 01:19:38,639
Speaker 1: They sat off icy cape all summer long until the winter,

1186
01:19:38,760 --> 01:19:40,719
Speaker 1: see I started to grow and went back to Barrow.

1187
01:19:40,840 --> 01:19:44,800
Speaker 1: They couldn't get through. The last year that I know

1188
01:19:45,040 --> 01:19:49,880
Speaker 1: that that happened was when we were digging Tunelik in

1189
01:19:50,040 --> 01:19:55,840
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy seven, because we were there from I think

1190
01:19:55,880 --> 01:19:59,080
Speaker 1: we were there through most August. By the before the

1191
01:19:59,240 --> 01:20:01,920
Speaker 1: end of August, you're starting to have ice grow again. Anyway,

1192
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:06,760
Speaker 1: that ice never went out. It was everybody turned around

1193
01:20:06,760 --> 01:20:11,200
Speaker 1: and went back down to Seattle. So that happened, and

1194
01:20:11,360 --> 01:20:14,040
Speaker 1: I could be wrong, all right. The reason I remember

1195
01:20:14,080 --> 01:20:17,280
Speaker 1: it so graphically is because I was there watching it.

1196
01:20:18,439 --> 01:20:20,840
Speaker 1: I wasn't there for that purpose, but we just you know,

1197
01:20:21,040 --> 01:20:23,200
Speaker 1: just remember it. I mean we could see look out

1198
01:20:23,280 --> 01:20:25,160
Speaker 1: every day. It wouldn't foggy and you could see it.

1199
01:20:26,320 --> 01:20:33,639
Speaker 1: So what happens to these polar bears when that stops happening?

1200
01:20:33,880 --> 01:20:35,680
Speaker 1: All right? I mean that's just an example. That's just

1201
01:20:35,800 --> 01:20:38,439
Speaker 1: a place where you could see it, all right. It

1202
01:20:38,640 --> 01:20:44,840
Speaker 1: was easy to see. Well, if they don't have that

1203
01:20:45,080 --> 01:20:48,320
Speaker 1: sea ice exploit, it's going to get to a point

1204
01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:53,360
Speaker 1: sooner or later where their numbers are going to start dropping.

1205
01:20:54,320 --> 01:20:59,720
Speaker 1: There's just no way around it. As early as two

1206
01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:04,240
Speaker 1: thousand and nine, a couple of my USTs colleagues had

1207
01:21:04,320 --> 01:21:08,080
Speaker 1: some weather cams set up and drew Point, which is

1208
01:21:08,120 --> 01:21:19,160
Speaker 1: about maybe fifteen miles west of Lonely. And when Frank

1209
01:21:19,280 --> 01:21:24,800
Speaker 1: went out to check the cameras in the summer, there's

1210
01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:31,519
Speaker 1: this polar bearer sow and two cubs on land and

1211
01:21:31,640 --> 01:21:35,439
Speaker 1: so this camera the camera's right on the edge of

1212
01:21:35,520 --> 01:21:39,760
Speaker 1: the of the Arctic Ocean right and in the background

1213
01:21:40,479 --> 01:21:43,200
Speaker 1: you can see the entire Arctic Ocean as far as

1214
01:21:43,320 --> 01:21:47,600
Speaker 1: you can see, not a spec of ice anywhere. And

1215
01:21:47,840 --> 01:21:49,960
Speaker 1: one of the cubs. In fact, I got a picture

1216
01:21:50,160 --> 01:21:53,479
Speaker 1: right here. I could show you one of the cubs.

1217
01:21:54,680 --> 01:21:57,920
Speaker 1: If you look at it is all dirty, brownish kind

1218
01:21:57,960 --> 01:22:01,320
Speaker 1: of because he's been down in the crevices of the

1219
01:22:01,479 --> 01:22:07,400
Speaker 1: front where the land is breaking off because of storm surges,

1220
01:22:07,439 --> 01:22:11,439
Speaker 1: because of climate change, because of the melting ice lenses,

1221
01:22:11,600 --> 01:22:15,599
Speaker 1: because of the climate change. He's down there groveling around

1222
01:22:15,680 --> 01:22:21,040
Speaker 1: looking for stuff to eat. And those polar bears are

1223
01:22:21,160 --> 01:22:25,160
Speaker 1: stuck there until the winter sea ice come. I mean,

1224
01:22:25,400 --> 01:22:30,760
Speaker 1: they're there from the time the sea ice seasonally disappears.

1225
01:22:30,920 --> 01:22:33,920
Speaker 1: If they're not on the ice, all right, If they're

1226
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:38,240
Speaker 1: on if they're on the inside limit of the pressure ridges,

1227
01:22:38,800 --> 01:22:41,400
Speaker 1: all right, they form and they don't get out of

1228
01:22:41,439 --> 01:22:44,240
Speaker 1: there fast, just like that mom and her two kids.

1229
01:22:45,360 --> 01:22:50,200
Speaker 1: They're on land untill it's till winter comes again. And

1230
01:22:51,080 --> 01:22:54,120
Speaker 1: in most cases they're going to have a really hard

1231
01:22:54,240 --> 01:23:00,360
Speaker 1: time surviving because they're not terrestrially adapted in terms of hunting,

1232
01:23:01,400 --> 01:23:04,320
Speaker 1: you know, I mean the things they eat your seals, basically.

1233
01:23:05,120 --> 01:23:14,240
Speaker 1: And that's why that statement by Lomberg is so disingenuous

1234
01:23:15,080 --> 01:23:19,360
Speaker 1: because it has nothing to do with the population numbers.

1235
01:23:19,400 --> 01:23:23,080
Speaker 1: It has the fact to do with We already know

1236
01:23:23,880 --> 01:23:28,519
Speaker 1: that these guys are on the downhill slide because pretty

1237
01:23:28,600 --> 01:23:32,200
Speaker 1: soon they aren't going to have what they need to survive.

1238
01:23:33,640 --> 01:23:37,760
Speaker 1: And that's it. What's your take on, um, what are

1239
01:23:37,760 --> 01:23:47,000
Speaker 1: your feelings about the Ambler Road? Whereas there's there's two

1240
01:23:47,320 --> 01:23:50,360
Speaker 1: there's two things about the Ambler Road. Ye tell people

1241
01:23:50,400 --> 01:23:56,240
Speaker 1: what it is to the State of Alaska wants to

1242
01:23:56,320 --> 01:23:59,760
Speaker 1: build the road. They want to build the road so

1243
01:24:00,160 --> 01:24:05,200
Speaker 1: that they can open the Ambler area for exploration and

1244
01:24:05,680 --> 01:24:10,800
Speaker 1: possible mining. Mining companies huge amounts precious metals. Yeah, well

1245
01:24:13,160 --> 01:24:15,800
Speaker 1: you looked at it's like absurd amounts of precis The

1246
01:24:15,920 --> 01:24:22,600
Speaker 1: point is that the oil companies, after they discovered the

1247
01:24:22,720 --> 01:24:28,680
Speaker 1: biggest oil deposit in North America in Prudeo Bay, they

1248
01:24:28,800 --> 01:24:33,120
Speaker 1: built their own damn road, all right. The state didn't

1249
01:24:33,200 --> 01:24:37,240
Speaker 1: go into up to their ears in debt or beyond

1250
01:24:37,960 --> 01:24:42,720
Speaker 1: building a road to entice them. The oil companies knew

1251
01:24:42,760 --> 01:24:45,519
Speaker 1: that stuff was up there. I don't know they footed

1252
01:24:45,560 --> 01:24:49,679
Speaker 1: the bill for the road. Hell yeah, yeah. Now the government,

1253
01:24:49,720 --> 01:24:53,080
Speaker 1: the federal government, which most of that road goes through

1254
01:24:53,280 --> 01:24:57,599
Speaker 1: at least north of the Yukon River, all right, they

1255
01:24:57,720 --> 01:25:02,240
Speaker 1: gave them. They were selling them material from the material sites,

1256
01:25:02,280 --> 01:25:04,719
Speaker 1: you know, from these glacial things I was talking about.

1257
01:25:05,040 --> 01:25:06,920
Speaker 1: They were selling that stuff to him for I like

1258
01:25:07,200 --> 01:25:11,559
Speaker 1: about fifty cents a yard. If anybody here's ever bought gravel,

1259
01:25:12,120 --> 01:25:14,120
Speaker 1: you know, it sells for a hell a lot more

1260
01:25:14,160 --> 01:25:18,599
Speaker 1: than fifty cents a yard. And so the federal government

1261
01:25:18,720 --> 01:25:21,120
Speaker 1: was given him a break on it. But I mean

1262
01:25:21,200 --> 01:25:25,760
Speaker 1: they were still getting something out of all right. The

1263
01:25:25,880 --> 01:25:29,840
Speaker 1: state of Alaska wants to do that too. In the

1264
01:25:29,920 --> 01:25:32,960
Speaker 1: oil companies didn't need any enticement. They knew there was

1265
01:25:33,160 --> 01:25:37,840
Speaker 1: enough resource up there that they could build that they built.

1266
01:25:37,880 --> 01:25:40,840
Speaker 1: As I recall, they built that road predicated on the

1267
01:25:40,960 --> 01:25:45,280
Speaker 1: fact that oil at twenty dollars a barrel would pay

1268
01:25:45,320 --> 01:25:47,439
Speaker 1: for it an X number of years could have made

1269
01:25:47,479 --> 01:25:51,800
Speaker 1: that road in diamonds. And now, I mean there's other

1270
01:25:51,880 --> 01:25:55,559
Speaker 1: economics involved, but I mean, now, as a general you know, okay,

1271
01:25:56,000 --> 01:25:58,080
Speaker 1: so like it would have been worth it at twenty

1272
01:25:58,640 --> 01:26:00,639
Speaker 1: but they're still pulling oil. They were pulling the oil

1273
01:26:00,680 --> 01:26:02,519
Speaker 1: when it was one hundred dollars, all right. They figured

1274
01:26:02,600 --> 01:26:07,000
Speaker 1: the lifetime of the Trans Alaska Pipeline would be twenty years.

1275
01:26:07,560 --> 01:26:11,200
Speaker 1: It's into its fortieth year or now, all right. Now,

1276
01:26:11,320 --> 01:26:16,840
Speaker 1: granted they do decent maintenance on it, but they figured

1277
01:26:16,840 --> 01:26:20,400
Speaker 1: it'd be a goner after about twenty years, and it isn't.

1278
01:26:20,600 --> 01:26:23,880
Speaker 1: All right, they're still good Conical Phillips is just in

1279
01:26:23,960 --> 01:26:27,120
Speaker 1: the process of developing developing their willow prospect up in

1280
01:26:27,200 --> 01:26:30,760
Speaker 1: the patrolling reserve. They're going to drill one hundred two

1281
01:26:30,880 --> 01:26:36,759
Speaker 1: hundred wells off of five five locations at their approval

1282
01:26:36,760 --> 01:26:39,160
Speaker 1: of the Biden administration. Yeah, and it's all gonna go

1283
01:26:39,280 --> 01:26:44,200
Speaker 1: down the pipeline. So the point is that the state

1284
01:26:44,280 --> 01:26:49,840
Speaker 1: of Alaska wants to build this road so that the

1285
01:26:50,160 --> 01:26:54,200
Speaker 1: mineral companies will go in there and develop that area. Well,

1286
01:26:54,320 --> 01:26:58,559
Speaker 1: if the prospects are so great, how come to mineral

1287
01:26:58,680 --> 01:27:02,600
Speaker 1: companies aren't going in there to do it themselves, just

1288
01:27:02,920 --> 01:27:06,719
Speaker 1: like the oil companies did on the pipeline. That's the question,

1289
01:27:06,880 --> 01:27:10,920
Speaker 1: all right, But you have to have an attitude about it,

1290
01:27:11,040 --> 01:27:14,599
Speaker 1: the goals beyond what makes economic sense. As a person

1291
01:27:14,640 --> 01:27:17,479
Speaker 1: who spent their life in the Arctic, well, what I'm

1292
01:27:17,520 --> 01:27:26,200
Speaker 1: saying is, I'm not a lot of people aren't necessarily

1293
01:27:27,000 --> 01:27:34,160
Speaker 1: strong environmentalists, but they wonder why that same formula doesn't

1294
01:27:34,240 --> 01:27:37,320
Speaker 1: work for the mining companies that work for the oil

1295
01:27:37,360 --> 01:27:43,000
Speaker 1: company it's why should my state go to the trouble

1296
01:27:43,160 --> 01:27:46,040
Speaker 1: of building this road. In the expense of building this road,

1297
01:27:46,240 --> 01:27:50,160
Speaker 1: it's like betting on the come all right, and it

1298
01:27:50,560 --> 01:27:56,760
Speaker 1: probably would pay off, I would say that, But why

1299
01:27:56,800 --> 01:27:59,200
Speaker 1: should you give the guys a free reign, a free ride?

1300
01:28:00,120 --> 01:28:01,920
Speaker 1: Use your damn money. That's what you got it for.

1301
01:28:02,400 --> 01:28:05,040
Speaker 1: If you think it's so great, build a road, We'll

1302
01:28:05,120 --> 01:28:08,439
Speaker 1: give you permits, federal government will give you. Probably Park

1303
01:28:08,520 --> 01:28:12,360
Speaker 1: Service is still pout about it, but BLM would probably

1304
01:28:12,880 --> 01:28:16,560
Speaker 1: issue all the necessary permits. But if you want that

1305
01:28:16,800 --> 01:28:18,839
Speaker 1: and there's so much money to be made, you shouldn't

1306
01:28:18,840 --> 01:28:26,960
Speaker 1: be afraid or reluctant to build the road yourself. I

1307
01:28:27,080 --> 01:28:29,320
Speaker 1: think that's what a lot of people think. So got

1308
01:28:29,520 --> 01:28:32,320
Speaker 1: you got that. You got that aspect of it, which

1309
01:28:32,600 --> 01:28:36,120
Speaker 1: which wasn't an aspect of the trans Alaska Pipeline road

1310
01:28:36,200 --> 01:28:41,800
Speaker 1: all right. The other aspect is that a road, as

1311
01:28:41,880 --> 01:28:48,799
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, is about it that has the greatest

1312
01:28:48,840 --> 01:28:52,160
Speaker 1: potential to create harm to the environment any other thing

1313
01:28:53,320 --> 01:28:56,000
Speaker 1: that would be associated with that prospect? Was that even

1314
01:28:56,040 --> 01:28:59,160
Speaker 1: on your radar when they were building the road up

1315
01:28:59,200 --> 01:29:02,479
Speaker 1: to Prudeo Bay, Like, was that like even a concern

1316
01:29:02,600 --> 01:29:07,559
Speaker 1: at that time that that the road would environmentally like damaging. Yeah,

1317
01:29:07,960 --> 01:29:10,360
Speaker 1: I don't want to say it was a huge concern,

1318
01:29:11,080 --> 01:29:13,720
Speaker 1: but it was a concern that was addressed by both

1319
01:29:13,760 --> 01:29:16,080
Speaker 1: the state, and it's a huge concern for the Ambler

1320
01:29:16,200 --> 01:29:19,120
Speaker 1: Road now. Yeah, well, because first of all, you got

1321
01:29:19,240 --> 01:29:22,800
Speaker 1: to cross Park Service land. That's one thing gates of

1322
01:29:22,880 --> 01:29:27,479
Speaker 1: the Arctic Um and that's pretty much a big no

1323
01:29:27,720 --> 01:29:31,360
Speaker 1: no nationwide. It's just like trying to drill for oil

1324
01:29:31,400 --> 01:29:35,280
Speaker 1: and the National art and the Artic Wildlife refuge Um.

1325
01:29:36,479 --> 01:29:43,840
Speaker 1: And uh so there's there's that aspect of it that

1326
01:29:44,160 --> 01:29:48,519
Speaker 1: people don't like as well. And I think that in

1327
01:29:48,640 --> 01:29:51,519
Speaker 1: the native the native community. I don't want to go

1328
01:29:51,880 --> 01:29:55,640
Speaker 1: into that too far, but I'm sure there is a

1329
01:29:55,760 --> 01:30:01,320
Speaker 1: lot of most of the local residential Native community that

1330
01:30:01,400 --> 01:30:05,000
Speaker 1: would be along that road is very probably not in

1331
01:30:05,120 --> 01:30:07,479
Speaker 1: favor of I don't know. I didn't go to any

1332
01:30:07,520 --> 01:30:10,760
Speaker 1: of the meetings because I'm an old XBLM guy and

1333
01:30:10,880 --> 01:30:14,280
Speaker 1: I've got all this experience and everything else, and I

1334
01:30:14,400 --> 01:30:16,600
Speaker 1: didn't want to go to any of those meetings and

1335
01:30:16,800 --> 01:30:19,560
Speaker 1: stand up and make some kind of a statement. And

1336
01:30:20,640 --> 01:30:25,880
Speaker 1: because I felt like it was somewhat it would be

1337
01:30:26,080 --> 01:30:31,120
Speaker 1: somewhat unfair and bias of me to do something like that,

1338
01:30:32,600 --> 01:30:35,320
Speaker 1: because I don't think any there was anybody there that

1339
01:30:35,439 --> 01:30:38,400
Speaker 1: could argue me off my stance, whatever it was, because

1340
01:30:38,439 --> 01:30:42,960
Speaker 1: I got too much experience. You're ready change topics again.

1341
01:30:43,760 --> 01:30:46,080
Speaker 1: I want to change topics again. Okay? Can we back

1342
01:30:46,160 --> 01:30:50,000
Speaker 1: up real quick? When you introduced the polar bear idea,

1343
01:30:50,120 --> 01:30:52,559
Speaker 1: you said that you have a bias. What was the bias?

1344
01:30:52,920 --> 01:30:58,880
Speaker 1: I was putting my stance in a biased form, expressing

1345
01:30:59,040 --> 01:31:03,280
Speaker 1: the l You were the author who wrote that. But

1346
01:31:03,439 --> 01:31:07,599
Speaker 1: I've heard that, I've heard of that viewpoint expressed by

1347
01:31:07,640 --> 01:31:12,720
Speaker 1: many people who don't want to be bothered by the

1348
01:31:12,840 --> 01:31:16,280
Speaker 1: inconveniences of climate issues and others. And I was I

1349
01:31:16,439 --> 01:31:19,680
Speaker 1: was laying out an expression of how it's how that

1350
01:31:19,960 --> 01:31:24,400
Speaker 1: is spun. Got it? Uh? When I met you long

1351
01:31:24,479 --> 01:31:26,680
Speaker 1: long ago, last time I saw you, twenty before I

1352
01:31:27,160 --> 01:31:30,559
Speaker 1: even came close to having kids, you were all excited,

1353
01:31:30,560 --> 01:31:32,800
Speaker 1: You're all worked up about some beads you had found.

1354
01:31:34,439 --> 01:31:40,000
Speaker 1: Oh well we didn't yes, and no, all right, we

1355
01:31:40,200 --> 01:31:45,519
Speaker 1: didn't find the original beads. Okay, okay, all right. This

1356
01:31:45,720 --> 01:31:51,840
Speaker 1: is a site called Punyak Point typically probably since we

1357
01:31:51,960 --> 01:31:54,880
Speaker 1: can use Ivatuk as a reference we have been. If

1358
01:31:54,920 --> 01:32:01,520
Speaker 1: you were at Ivatuk and you flew southwest in a helicopter,

1359
01:32:02,200 --> 01:32:06,560
Speaker 1: you could be at Tivolik Lake and Punyak Point in

1360
01:32:06,600 --> 01:32:15,760
Speaker 1: twenty minutes. In the nineteen fifties, there was an archaeologist

1361
01:32:15,800 --> 01:32:18,479
Speaker 1: by the name of Bill Irving who is getting his

1362
01:32:18,640 --> 01:32:24,439
Speaker 1: PhD at the University of Wisconsin, and his dad was

1363
01:32:24,520 --> 01:32:28,120
Speaker 1: a biologist and had been associated with the University of

1364
01:32:28,160 --> 01:32:31,240
Speaker 1: Alaska for a number of years and was doing some

1365
01:32:31,360 --> 01:32:37,640
Speaker 1: biologic surveys in that general area with his Eskimo assistant,

1366
01:32:37,720 --> 01:32:47,400
Speaker 1: Simon Penniak, and round a Tivolik Lake. They found in

1367
01:32:47,479 --> 01:32:52,080
Speaker 1: the process of their biological investigations, they found I think

1368
01:32:52,160 --> 01:32:56,479
Speaker 1: something like thirteen or fourteen archaeological sites. One of them

1369
01:32:56,840 --> 01:33:04,360
Speaker 1: was huge. It covered about from let's say the east

1370
01:33:04,520 --> 01:33:08,360
Speaker 1: end to the west end three hundred meters okay, three

1371
01:33:08,439 --> 01:33:18,360
Speaker 1: hundred yards fifty semi subterranean pitouse, semi subterranean house remains,

1372
01:33:21,479 --> 01:33:25,080
Speaker 1: and I mean it was obviously an area that had

1373
01:33:25,160 --> 01:33:31,320
Speaker 1: been used a lot, so he decided he wanted after

1374
01:33:31,439 --> 01:33:35,680
Speaker 1: his dad told him about it, he decided that he

1375
01:33:35,840 --> 01:33:41,320
Speaker 1: wanted to excavate that site for his PhD dissertation at

1376
01:33:41,320 --> 01:33:44,360
Speaker 1: the University of Wisconsin. So he went up there in

1377
01:33:44,439 --> 01:33:48,559
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty seven with an Eskimo crew and they did

1378
01:33:48,960 --> 01:33:52,000
Speaker 1: a bunch of work and they found a bunch of stuff,

1379
01:33:52,840 --> 01:33:55,680
Speaker 1: and then I think he went back the next year

1380
01:33:56,760 --> 01:34:00,240
Speaker 1: found a little more. And I'm not going I'm not

1381
01:34:00,400 --> 01:34:02,920
Speaker 1: if I if I start going down or this rabbit

1382
01:34:03,000 --> 01:34:05,679
Speaker 1: trail of how come and why, I will be here forever.

1383
01:34:05,800 --> 01:34:09,200
Speaker 1: So all I'm going to say is fifty seven was

1384
01:34:09,320 --> 01:34:13,760
Speaker 1: essentially the last year he did anything. All right. He

1385
01:34:13,920 --> 01:34:18,760
Speaker 1: went back in sixty one or sixty yeah, sixty one

1386
01:34:20,120 --> 01:34:24,240
Speaker 1: and did some more work, and he came up with

1387
01:34:24,479 --> 01:34:36,680
Speaker 1: this um idea that he translated into a hypothesis of

1388
01:34:36,840 --> 01:34:44,519
Speaker 1: a pan Arctic culture called the the Arctic small Tool tradition.

1389
01:34:45,040 --> 01:34:48,640
Speaker 1: It stretched all the way from Alaska to Greenland and

1390
01:34:49,080 --> 01:34:56,320
Speaker 1: and predated, no, preday Eskimos. Not well, yeah, predated Eskimos

1391
01:34:56,360 --> 01:35:01,200
Speaker 1: because the aspect today we call that culture the Denby

1392
01:35:01,320 --> 01:35:06,320
Speaker 1: Flint Complex. That the dates on that that complex or

1393
01:35:06,400 --> 01:35:10,120
Speaker 1: that group of people existed between four thousand years ago

1394
01:35:10,160 --> 01:35:12,920
Speaker 1: and three thousand years ago. But the importance of it

1395
01:35:13,160 --> 01:35:22,320
Speaker 1: was that that that cultural group originated in Alaska and

1396
01:35:22,760 --> 01:35:26,840
Speaker 1: in a time span of less than probably two hundred

1397
01:35:26,840 --> 01:35:29,640
Speaker 1: and fifty years, had spread all the way to Greenland.

1398
01:35:30,360 --> 01:35:33,800
Speaker 1: I mean that with big news, very successful, and this

1399
01:35:35,200 --> 01:35:40,120
Speaker 1: the Arctic small tool tradition. He formulated it demonstrated it

1400
01:35:40,360 --> 01:35:43,759
Speaker 1: that it existed, and it has withstood the test of time.

1401
01:35:44,240 --> 01:35:49,040
Speaker 1: I mean Alaska all the way to Greenland. I mean

1402
01:35:49,240 --> 01:35:53,719
Speaker 1: that's a that's a long road. So any rate punic

1403
01:35:53,840 --> 01:35:57,679
Speaker 1: point is in the petroleum reserve. One of the things

1404
01:35:57,760 --> 01:36:01,360
Speaker 1: that Irving found, Now, when he was doing this, it

1405
01:36:01,600 --> 01:36:08,000
Speaker 1: was just radiocarbon dating was just starting to be accepted

1406
01:36:09,240 --> 01:36:16,960
Speaker 1: by archaeologists. It had been being used for maybe ten years,

1407
01:36:17,920 --> 01:36:22,080
Speaker 1: and not used to widely for one reason, it required

1408
01:36:22,080 --> 01:36:26,240
Speaker 1: a tremendously large sample to do it all right back

1409
01:36:26,280 --> 01:36:32,080
Speaker 1: in the early days, a large sample of datable material.

1410
01:36:33,280 --> 01:36:40,560
Speaker 1: So any rate he got I think only one or

1411
01:36:40,560 --> 01:36:45,840
Speaker 1: two radiocarbon dates. But what I'm gonna say, one of

1412
01:36:45,880 --> 01:36:49,000
Speaker 1: the things that he found when he was excavating there

1413
01:36:49,960 --> 01:36:55,920
Speaker 1: were some blue glass beads, and he was he found

1414
01:36:56,000 --> 01:37:01,080
Speaker 1: those blue glass beads and occupations were much more recent

1415
01:37:01,520 --> 01:37:04,479
Speaker 1: than the Arctic small tool tradition. Okay, but the site

1416
01:37:04,479 --> 01:37:07,400
Speaker 1: had been used for you know, five four or five

1417
01:37:07,479 --> 01:37:12,519
Speaker 1: thousand years by different people. He thought that those beads

1418
01:37:13,840 --> 01:37:18,880
Speaker 1: were historic. So he thought that it was a historic occupation,

1419
01:37:19,360 --> 01:37:22,839
Speaker 1: that those Eskimo's probably got those beads from the whalers,

1420
01:37:23,320 --> 01:37:26,280
Speaker 1: you know, the whalers. They were trade beads, and they

1421
01:37:26,360 --> 01:37:29,479
Speaker 1: showed up camped on his old ass site and left

1422
01:37:29,520 --> 01:37:32,080
Speaker 1: the stuff. But they showed up all all in eastern

1423
01:37:32,200 --> 01:37:36,560
Speaker 1: North America during the fifteen hundreds and sixteen hundreds and

1424
01:37:37,200 --> 01:37:42,040
Speaker 1: in sights you know, occupied by um Native peoples. And

1425
01:37:42,600 --> 01:37:45,240
Speaker 1: so I mean, he just said, Okay, there must have

1426
01:37:45,280 --> 01:37:51,200
Speaker 1: been a historic occupation here, period of historic occupation, or

1427
01:37:51,600 --> 01:37:57,320
Speaker 1: those beads wouldn't be here. He also found some cold

1428
01:37:57,400 --> 01:38:01,559
Speaker 1: hammered native copper. And there's a lot of raw native

1429
01:38:01,600 --> 01:38:05,160
Speaker 1: copper in Alaska, and you know, the native people have

1430
01:38:05,400 --> 01:38:08,560
Speaker 1: used it for years. You know, you find nuggets and

1431
01:38:08,640 --> 01:38:11,240
Speaker 1: streams instead. I mean you just pound it into whatever

1432
01:38:11,360 --> 01:38:17,360
Speaker 1: you want, all right, I mean, that's nothing new. So anyway,

1433
01:38:17,360 --> 01:38:21,000
Speaker 1: Irving just said, yeah, in his dissertation, Yeah, there's some

1434
01:38:21,080 --> 01:38:25,320
Speaker 1: glass beads there, so there must be a historic occupation. Well,

1435
01:38:25,360 --> 01:38:28,000
Speaker 1: any rate, that site is in the patrolling reserve, and

1436
01:38:28,080 --> 01:38:33,360
Speaker 1: because as a patrolling reserve, archaeologists, there was money available

1437
01:38:34,080 --> 01:38:38,800
Speaker 1: to go back and look at sites that had had

1438
01:38:39,400 --> 01:38:45,560
Speaker 1: some environmental degradation just because of natural causes. At a

1439
01:38:45,640 --> 01:38:49,240
Speaker 1: typical like when the ice goes out at the end

1440
01:38:49,280 --> 01:38:54,400
Speaker 1: of the winter, the prevailing winds blow these huge chunks

1441
01:38:54,439 --> 01:38:58,120
Speaker 1: of ice right up into that site. I mean, it

1442
01:38:58,280 --> 01:39:02,639
Speaker 1: just bulldozes that HiT's the bank right at the edge

1443
01:39:02,640 --> 01:39:05,200
Speaker 1: of the of the of the lake, and it just

1444
01:39:05,400 --> 01:39:08,120
Speaker 1: peels the tunderback. You know, we're talking about chunks of

1445
01:39:08,200 --> 01:39:11,920
Speaker 1: ice that weigh five six hundred pounds. Prevailing wind just

1446
01:39:12,040 --> 01:39:15,839
Speaker 1: blowing him right off into it, and as a result,

1447
01:39:16,640 --> 01:39:21,639
Speaker 1: the site's being severely impacted, you know, but by natural forces.

1448
01:39:22,280 --> 01:39:25,600
Speaker 1: So I said, okay, give me some money. I'll go

1449
01:39:25,800 --> 01:39:29,439
Speaker 1: up there and you know, with Irving's dissertation in hand,

1450
01:39:30,000 --> 01:39:34,400
Speaker 1: and see how much damage is actually occurring there, and

1451
01:39:34,960 --> 01:39:38,400
Speaker 1: you know what the loss is, and how concerned we

1452
01:39:38,520 --> 01:39:42,599
Speaker 1: have to be about this very very famous and important

1453
01:39:42,720 --> 01:39:46,479
Speaker 1: archeological site. You know, the instigation of the article small

1454
01:39:46,560 --> 01:39:50,519
Speaker 1: tool tradition. See if we need to consider doing something

1455
01:39:50,600 --> 01:39:53,040
Speaker 1: about this, if there is something or first of all,

1456
01:39:53,320 --> 01:40:06,040
Speaker 1: seeing if there is something we can do. So we

1457
01:40:06,160 --> 01:40:11,639
Speaker 1: go up there and and I was you know, one

1458
01:40:11,680 --> 01:40:15,560
Speaker 1: of another archaeologist in our office. I asked him to

1459
01:40:15,640 --> 01:40:18,840
Speaker 1: come up and help me with it at Robin Mills.

1460
01:40:19,160 --> 01:40:22,559
Speaker 1: And so we're running this thing. I got an excavation crew,

1461
01:40:22,800 --> 01:40:24,880
Speaker 1: I got some of my old buddies there. Dale Slaughter

1462
01:40:25,080 --> 01:40:28,920
Speaker 1: was there again, and Rick Ernier was there again, and

1463
01:40:30,400 --> 01:40:35,920
Speaker 1: so any rate, because Irving had found the copper, all right,

1464
01:40:36,640 --> 01:40:40,600
Speaker 1: I said, the first thing let's do, let's do a

1465
01:40:41,360 --> 01:40:47,080
Speaker 1: metal detector survey of this area, you know, I mean

1466
01:40:47,160 --> 01:40:51,080
Speaker 1: this big site area, and see what we can find,

1467
01:40:51,320 --> 01:40:54,080
Speaker 1: all right, Because what we wanted to do is as

1468
01:40:54,240 --> 01:41:00,560
Speaker 1: much uninvasive exploration is that we didn't want to go

1469
01:41:00,640 --> 01:41:07,240
Speaker 1: around digging holes everywhere. So when we got this one

1470
01:41:07,520 --> 01:41:13,439
Speaker 1: hit on the on the metal detector, we go and

1471
01:41:13,560 --> 01:41:19,400
Speaker 1: we dig this thing and you know, just just a hole,

1472
01:41:19,479 --> 01:41:24,960
Speaker 1: this big, all right, and down underneath the vegetation, in

1473
01:41:25,040 --> 01:41:30,799
Speaker 1: other words, underneath the sod level into the soil about

1474
01:41:30,840 --> 01:41:35,720
Speaker 1: five centimeters deep, all right, which is deeper than any

1475
01:41:35,880 --> 01:41:41,280
Speaker 1: historic stuff would be. We find this little tumble of

1476
01:41:43,880 --> 01:41:56,360
Speaker 1: two iron pendants, two silver or two copper rings, and

1477
01:41:56,600 --> 01:42:02,679
Speaker 1: three blue glass beads in this little pile, and one

1478
01:42:02,800 --> 01:42:09,080
Speaker 1: of the copper bangles circular thing there's no way the

1479
01:42:09,200 --> 01:42:12,200
Speaker 1: natives could weld anything. So what they did when they

1480
01:42:12,280 --> 01:42:16,200
Speaker 1: made bangles out of raw copper, cold hammered it. They

1481
01:42:16,320 --> 01:42:19,280
Speaker 1: bang on it and they make this crescent and keep

1482
01:42:19,360 --> 01:42:22,000
Speaker 1: banging it and banging it and banging it until it

1483
01:42:22,120 --> 01:42:25,160
Speaker 1: was circular. Then they bang it some more. So those

1484
01:42:25,240 --> 01:42:29,920
Speaker 1: two ends overlapped. Yeah, wed not the weld of it, no,

1485
01:42:30,120 --> 01:42:36,400
Speaker 1: join it. And then they wrapped it with with willow twine.

1486
01:42:37,400 --> 01:42:40,040
Speaker 1: Keep it shut. Then you can string it on something

1487
01:42:40,160 --> 01:42:44,120
Speaker 1: like a necklace or a bracelet. Right, one of those

1488
01:42:44,280 --> 01:42:48,880
Speaker 1: bangles had. First of all, we interpreted this thing as

1489
01:42:49,000 --> 01:42:53,960
Speaker 1: a as an object of personal adornment. Three beads, two bangles,

1490
01:42:54,560 --> 01:43:02,719
Speaker 1: you know, two um the iron things pendance, And obviously

1491
01:43:02,840 --> 01:43:07,320
Speaker 1: it was personal adornment. But we could date this thing

1492
01:43:07,520 --> 01:43:13,080
Speaker 1: because it had this organic twine wrapped around it. We

1493
01:43:13,160 --> 01:43:17,120
Speaker 1: could see fourteen dated and we when we dated it,

1494
01:43:18,000 --> 01:43:23,280
Speaker 1: it said it dated to about sixty years earlier than

1495
01:43:23,439 --> 01:43:29,680
Speaker 1: Columbus's original landing at Hispaniola. So it's how do we

1496
01:43:29,800 --> 01:43:36,840
Speaker 1: get glass beads made in Europe? Well, now we said,

1497
01:43:37,120 --> 01:43:43,839
Speaker 1: we said venice, all right, but by this certain method

1498
01:43:44,920 --> 01:43:49,639
Speaker 1: that wasn't even really maybe not supposed to exist at

1499
01:43:49,720 --> 01:43:56,640
Speaker 1: that time in an archaeological site in Alaska in the

1500
01:43:56,760 --> 01:44:00,599
Speaker 1: lower forty eight. None of this type of beads. There's

1501
01:44:00,600 --> 01:44:04,360
Speaker 1: a whole hierarchy, you know, thing of beads with all

1502
01:44:04,400 --> 01:44:07,960
Speaker 1: these numbers associated with them. So archaeology, these are two

1503
01:44:08,120 --> 01:44:13,320
Speaker 1: a forty beads, and there are none of those beads

1504
01:44:13,680 --> 01:44:19,120
Speaker 1: found west of the Rocky Mountains. All of them are

1505
01:44:19,280 --> 01:44:24,160
Speaker 1: found in the East, and they date fifteen hundreds and

1506
01:44:24,280 --> 01:44:29,080
Speaker 1: sixteen hundreds. Okay, no, no more recently than that, all

1507
01:44:29,200 --> 01:44:34,160
Speaker 1: post Columbus. No that I mean Columbus is fourteen ninety two.

1508
01:44:34,680 --> 01:44:39,599
Speaker 1: The stuff in the East is the people from Europe

1509
01:44:39,880 --> 01:44:43,800
Speaker 1: colonizing the Uniteds. Yeah, okay, but none of it is

1510
01:44:43,880 --> 01:44:48,040
Speaker 1: in the West, where colonization appeared took place later, all right.

1511
01:44:49,320 --> 01:44:52,519
Speaker 1: So it's like the first thing is how come these

1512
01:44:52,600 --> 01:44:57,040
Speaker 1: beads are in Alaska? Well, and then it's like, how

1513
01:44:57,120 --> 01:45:03,880
Speaker 1: come there's no historic occupation at Puny Point. But we've

1514
01:45:03,920 --> 01:45:07,360
Speaker 1: got these beads that everywhere they exist in the New World,

1515
01:45:08,080 --> 01:45:11,639
Speaker 1: they're in a historic context, you know, I mean, how

1516
01:45:11,680 --> 01:45:17,800
Speaker 1: do we resolve this? So neither Robin nor I were

1517
01:45:18,280 --> 01:45:21,040
Speaker 1: bead people, you know, I mean, I dug a few sites,

1518
01:45:21,880 --> 01:45:25,320
Speaker 1: you know, historic sites where their beads occurred. And everybody,

1519
01:45:25,320 --> 01:45:28,559
Speaker 1: I mean, we never researched beads at all. I mean

1520
01:45:29,200 --> 01:45:32,519
Speaker 1: we just didn't, all right, So we had to we

1521
01:45:32,640 --> 01:45:37,200
Speaker 1: had to learn. So we found a couple of real

1522
01:45:37,360 --> 01:45:42,479
Speaker 1: bead researchers and we said, hey, we've got these beads.

1523
01:45:43,800 --> 01:45:45,360
Speaker 1: What can't you tell you know we I mean, we

1524
01:45:45,520 --> 01:45:50,120
Speaker 1: hired them, all right, say to look at these beads

1525
01:45:50,120 --> 01:45:53,400
Speaker 1: and write us a report, which they did, and the

1526
01:45:53,520 --> 01:45:57,240
Speaker 1: report said that these are two a forty glass beads.

1527
01:45:57,600 --> 01:46:02,519
Speaker 1: They're made by a process called uspa ao that was

1528
01:46:02,680 --> 01:46:08,519
Speaker 1: developed in Europe, and there are amongst the earliest beads

1529
01:46:08,640 --> 01:46:13,080
Speaker 1: made by that process, and we think they came There

1530
01:46:13,080 --> 01:46:16,320
Speaker 1: are a lot of little teeny tiny bubbles in the glass,

1531
01:46:17,840 --> 01:46:20,679
Speaker 1: and we think they were pretty sure. They were made

1532
01:46:20,840 --> 01:46:26,840
Speaker 1: in like the Netherlands and France and maybe a few

1533
01:46:26,920 --> 01:46:31,040
Speaker 1: other European places, and they were made specifically as trade

1534
01:46:31,080 --> 01:46:34,320
Speaker 1: beads to trade with native populations in Africa and the

1535
01:46:34,400 --> 01:46:39,479
Speaker 1: New World and so on and so forth. But they

1536
01:46:39,560 --> 01:46:43,880
Speaker 1: were always made during a historic period, all right, well,

1537
01:46:44,120 --> 01:46:47,479
Speaker 1: historic period and the Old World goes back way for

1538
01:46:47,840 --> 01:46:51,400
Speaker 1: But what what I'm saying is they were made in

1539
01:46:51,560 --> 01:46:58,040
Speaker 1: a period that was not historic over here. These cultures

1540
01:46:58,080 --> 01:47:02,080
Speaker 1: were still prehistoric in a last, all right, and so

1541
01:47:02,320 --> 01:47:05,800
Speaker 1: it's how did they get there? So Robin and I

1542
01:47:06,280 --> 01:47:15,200
Speaker 1: knew that first of all, this this methodology was developed

1543
01:47:15,400 --> 01:47:21,360
Speaker 1: in Venice, all right, and that Venetian Venice was one

1544
01:47:21,439 --> 01:47:27,560
Speaker 1: of the was the primary trader of the eastern Mediterranean,

1545
01:47:27,920 --> 01:47:31,720
Speaker 1: all right. They traded with a lot of the cultures

1546
01:47:32,560 --> 01:47:35,360
Speaker 1: you know in the in the Near East, all right,

1547
01:47:36,120 --> 01:47:39,559
Speaker 1: the Turks and Arabs and stuff like this that are

1548
01:47:39,600 --> 01:47:44,680
Speaker 1: on that far eastern coast of the Mediterranean. And there

1549
01:47:44,840 --> 01:47:47,519
Speaker 1: was no Italy then. There were just these city states,

1550
01:47:47,600 --> 01:47:50,280
Speaker 1: and Venice was one of the most powerful city states

1551
01:47:51,200 --> 01:47:55,639
Speaker 1: in that area. They had a big navy. Well anyway,

1552
01:47:55,920 --> 01:48:00,320
Speaker 1: so we figured, okay, if the Venetians developed up this

1553
01:48:00,760 --> 01:48:03,960
Speaker 1: method of making beads, I'm not going to go into it,

1554
01:48:04,080 --> 01:48:07,360
Speaker 1: but it's very distinctive if you see that, you know,

1555
01:48:08,520 --> 01:48:11,960
Speaker 1: all right, at least originally that had to come from Venom.

1556
01:48:13,160 --> 01:48:16,200
Speaker 1: And we said, so, if they're trading, they have these

1557
01:48:16,280 --> 01:48:19,120
Speaker 1: caravans going on the Silk Road, okay, And that's a

1558
01:48:19,280 --> 01:48:22,320
Speaker 1: very generic term. There are a whole bunch of roads.

1559
01:48:22,400 --> 01:48:26,000
Speaker 1: And you just called all those roads together going to

1560
01:48:26,080 --> 01:48:30,120
Speaker 1: the east the Silk Road. All right. Well, if a

1561
01:48:30,240 --> 01:48:33,400
Speaker 1: lot of those are going through Aboriginal territory in the

1562
01:48:33,479 --> 01:48:37,479
Speaker 1: old world, and these traders aren't going to miss a beat.

1563
01:48:37,920 --> 01:48:40,280
Speaker 1: So they're taking a bunch of these trade beads with them,

1564
01:48:40,479 --> 01:48:45,439
Speaker 1: and it's getting into the native community and gets into

1565
01:48:45,520 --> 01:48:49,840
Speaker 1: the Drizzles down into the Rush and far East, and

1566
01:48:50,040 --> 01:48:54,479
Speaker 1: these guys into the Eskimo habitations there, and these guys

1567
01:48:54,520 --> 01:49:00,920
Speaker 1: are trading with Alaska Eskimos and the Bearing Straight and

1568
01:49:01,600 --> 01:49:04,719
Speaker 1: so back and forth. And that's how we figured those

1569
01:49:04,800 --> 01:49:10,240
Speaker 1: beads got to Alaska and the main well you could

1570
01:49:10,280 --> 01:49:12,400
Speaker 1: call at the back door, but it's not really it's

1571
01:49:12,439 --> 01:49:16,320
Speaker 1: really yeah, it's really not. Because the Aboriginal cultures have

1572
01:49:16,439 --> 01:49:19,120
Speaker 1: been trading each other back and forth across the Bearing

1573
01:49:19,160 --> 01:49:26,040
Speaker 1: Straight for thousands of years, all right, But so this

1574
01:49:26,760 --> 01:49:29,000
Speaker 1: and they're still doing it at this time. And you

1575
01:49:29,160 --> 01:49:32,800
Speaker 1: get these beads into their you know, they're getting them

1576
01:49:32,840 --> 01:49:35,519
Speaker 1: from the from the traders, just like they're supposed to.

1577
01:49:35,920 --> 01:49:39,559
Speaker 1: And then they're bringing some of them across the Bearing

1578
01:49:39,640 --> 01:49:44,439
Speaker 1: Straight to the Alaska and ask him a trade fairs

1579
01:49:44,920 --> 01:49:48,240
Speaker 1: on our side of the Bearing strait. That's how they

1580
01:49:48,320 --> 01:49:52,120
Speaker 1: got there, all right. But we still had demonstrate the

1581
01:49:52,240 --> 01:49:56,519
Speaker 1: age of these things because in our article, if you

1582
01:49:56,640 --> 01:49:59,880
Speaker 1: look at it as say pre Columbian presence of Venetian

1583
01:50:00,120 --> 01:50:05,160
Speaker 1: glass trade beads in Arctic Alaska. So how do we

1584
01:50:05,240 --> 01:50:10,040
Speaker 1: demonstrate this. One of the things we did was we

1585
01:50:10,240 --> 01:50:16,160
Speaker 1: had the beads analyzed by through a process called neutron

1586
01:50:16,960 --> 01:50:21,080
Speaker 1: neutron activation instrumental neutron activation. And what that does is

1587
01:50:21,160 --> 01:50:24,519
Speaker 1: it gives you a fingerprint of the elements that are

1588
01:50:24,600 --> 01:50:28,880
Speaker 1: present in the glass. And our beads up up in

1589
01:50:28,960 --> 01:50:35,720
Speaker 1: Alaska matched the same elemental pattern as the beads in

1590
01:50:35,920 --> 01:50:41,519
Speaker 1: Northeastern America did the same kind of bead. Okay, so

1591
01:50:42,400 --> 01:50:45,799
Speaker 1: the genesis of these beads is the same. That doesn't

1592
01:50:46,000 --> 01:50:50,800
Speaker 1: mean that they were made in Venice, but it means

1593
01:50:50,880 --> 01:50:53,040
Speaker 1: that they had to be made the same place these

1594
01:50:53,080 --> 01:50:59,720
Speaker 1: other beads were made. Okay, so you know that, you know,

1595
01:50:59,800 --> 01:51:04,439
Speaker 1: we start getting interested. Now. These beads that we've got

1596
01:51:04,600 --> 01:51:09,920
Speaker 1: an article Alaska are two a forty glass beads. That's

1597
01:51:10,000 --> 01:51:17,720
Speaker 1: their you know, name in the archaeological register, and they

1598
01:51:17,880 --> 01:51:23,360
Speaker 1: have a date on them that's pre Columbian. So but

1599
01:51:23,520 --> 01:51:28,320
Speaker 1: we've only got one date, right, and you can always

1600
01:51:28,400 --> 01:51:32,840
Speaker 1: have one date is nice, but if you really want

1601
01:51:32,880 --> 01:51:36,240
Speaker 1: to have your theory old water, you better had a

1602
01:51:36,400 --> 01:51:40,600
Speaker 1: couple other corroborating. So anyway, one of the things we

1603
01:51:40,680 --> 01:51:43,080
Speaker 1: also wanted to do up on your point was excavate

1604
01:51:43,720 --> 01:51:47,640
Speaker 1: one of these semi subterranean house remains that Irving had

1605
01:51:47,720 --> 01:51:53,479
Speaker 1: never touched, okay, and to see exactly what was going

1606
01:51:53,600 --> 01:51:57,240
Speaker 1: on in all right, because all our evidence said there's

1607
01:51:57,280 --> 01:52:02,639
Speaker 1: no historic occupation, there's no period of historic occupation here. Irving,

1608
01:52:02,720 --> 01:52:07,280
Speaker 1: who didn't really do much dating, all right and was

1609
01:52:07,360 --> 01:52:11,360
Speaker 1: working in more of mixed context, just assumed because there

1610
01:52:11,400 --> 01:52:14,240
Speaker 1: were glass beads, that there was a historic occupation of

1611
01:52:14,320 --> 01:52:19,240
Speaker 1: the site. So anyway, we were excavating House eleven, well,

1612
01:52:19,320 --> 01:52:25,920
Speaker 1: our outwood we called House eleven. We excavated down onto

1613
01:52:25,960 --> 01:52:30,880
Speaker 1: the floor near the hearth, and guess what we found more,

1614
01:52:31,360 --> 01:52:35,880
Speaker 1: We found a half of a glass bead. All right.

1615
01:52:37,760 --> 01:52:42,960
Speaker 1: The house had only had one episode of use because

1616
01:52:43,040 --> 01:52:46,759
Speaker 1: there was only one floor layer in the house. Because

1617
01:52:46,840 --> 01:52:48,720
Speaker 1: you live in one of those things during the winter

1618
01:52:48,800 --> 01:52:53,320
Speaker 1: and it's a wintertime occupation, all right. Everything gets from

1619
01:52:53,360 --> 01:52:56,880
Speaker 1: the house gets from the hearth, and the house gets

1620
01:52:56,960 --> 01:53:00,120
Speaker 1: chomped down into the floor. And I mean you can

1621
01:53:00,200 --> 01:53:03,160
Speaker 1: see that flip. The floor layer may only be this thick,

1622
01:53:03,439 --> 01:53:06,519
Speaker 1: but you can see that layer all right, because all

1623
01:53:06,600 --> 01:53:11,680
Speaker 1: the jump. What will happen subsequent to that is the

1624
01:53:11,800 --> 01:53:14,599
Speaker 1: reason there's an occupation there is because there's a willow

1625
01:53:14,640 --> 01:53:18,960
Speaker 1: patch next to that lake that has sufficient wood in

1626
01:53:19,080 --> 01:53:21,800
Speaker 1: it for two or three families to get through the

1627
01:53:21,880 --> 01:53:26,800
Speaker 1: winter on it. But after that winter, they aren't enough

1628
01:53:26,880 --> 01:53:30,240
Speaker 1: there anymore. So you got to wait about ten years

1629
01:53:30,400 --> 01:53:34,880
Speaker 1: before that willows renew themselves and somebody else will yields

1630
01:53:34,960 --> 01:53:38,720
Speaker 1: it again. In the meantime, all this stuff drifts into

1631
01:53:38,800 --> 01:53:44,000
Speaker 1: this abandoned house, and so the next time somebody inhabits it,

1632
01:53:44,640 --> 01:53:47,519
Speaker 1: they create another floor layer. But if I go in

1633
01:53:47,600 --> 01:53:50,080
Speaker 1: there and excavate it, I hit this floor layer, and

1634
01:53:50,120 --> 01:53:52,439
Speaker 1: I say, oh, here's here's the floor and these I

1635
01:53:52,520 --> 01:53:54,519
Speaker 1: went right through it, and then I hit this layer

1636
01:53:54,920 --> 01:53:59,040
Speaker 1: of no occupation at all, And then the next thing

1637
01:53:59,080 --> 01:54:02,120
Speaker 1: I knew, I hit the next layer. So I know

1638
01:54:02,400 --> 01:54:06,599
Speaker 1: if I only get one layer all right, that that's

1639
01:54:06,760 --> 01:54:10,479
Speaker 1: the only occupation of that house. And I know that

1640
01:54:10,640 --> 01:54:16,960
Speaker 1: the charcoal and that hearth directly relates to that floor

1641
01:54:17,640 --> 01:54:22,800
Speaker 1: and whatever that date is, that's how old that occupation is.

1642
01:54:23,320 --> 01:54:28,439
Speaker 1: That bead got smushed down into the floor. That date

1643
01:54:28,680 --> 01:54:32,560
Speaker 1: was fourteen hundred something. I can't remember. That's how old

1644
01:54:32,640 --> 01:54:36,720
Speaker 1: that damn beads. Okay, So this is why I'm getting

1645
01:54:36,760 --> 01:54:41,200
Speaker 1: back to the forensic Yeah, all right, that's why we're

1646
01:54:41,280 --> 01:54:44,800
Speaker 1: responsible for forensic science archaeologists. All right. I just wanted

1647
01:54:44,840 --> 01:54:49,600
Speaker 1: to let you know that at any rate. So then

1648
01:54:49,720 --> 01:54:56,320
Speaker 1: we've we've got this, We've corroborated our our date on

1649
01:54:56,520 --> 01:54:59,960
Speaker 1: the on the bangal bead thing, right, I mean it's

1650
01:55:00,120 --> 01:55:05,080
Speaker 1: not exactly the same, but they overlap. Okay. A couple

1651
01:55:05,120 --> 01:55:08,960
Speaker 1: of years later, we're working at a place called Kenyak

1652
01:55:09,040 --> 01:55:12,320
Speaker 1: Sugvic where there was a huge karigi this is a

1653
01:55:12,400 --> 01:55:16,360
Speaker 1: men's house, huge bowlers this big, you know, and a

1654
01:55:16,640 --> 01:55:23,440
Speaker 1: huge circle um and there were there was it's another

1655
01:55:23,600 --> 01:55:28,960
Speaker 1: lake with Cariboo. The Cariboo came by their drive lines

1656
01:55:29,040 --> 01:55:32,560
Speaker 1: called the Nuxuk where the natives would you know, fill

1657
01:55:32,800 --> 01:55:35,560
Speaker 1: they'd be up build these stone lines every now and

1658
01:55:35,640 --> 01:55:38,240
Speaker 1: then set a stick up, tie a couple of feathers

1659
01:55:38,280 --> 01:55:40,920
Speaker 1: to it and a piece of skin so blow on

1660
01:55:40,960 --> 01:55:43,880
Speaker 1: the line and get all the cariboo coming down them,

1661
01:55:44,040 --> 01:55:46,240
Speaker 1: run them down into the lake, come out in their

1662
01:55:46,320 --> 01:55:48,880
Speaker 1: kayaks and lance the cariboo while they're in the lake.

1663
01:55:50,160 --> 01:55:55,880
Speaker 1: So there they and so there's sub semi subterranean houses there.

1664
01:55:56,320 --> 01:55:58,560
Speaker 1: We were excavating one of those because it was a

1665
01:55:58,640 --> 01:56:01,960
Speaker 1: little bit later than some of the others, all right,

1666
01:56:02,600 --> 01:56:08,880
Speaker 1: And we were water screening the stuff we were getting

1667
01:56:09,000 --> 01:56:12,400
Speaker 1: out of the houses because it was a little different

1668
01:56:12,440 --> 01:56:14,400
Speaker 1: than it was at Punic Point. It was a kind

1669
01:56:14,400 --> 01:56:19,480
Speaker 1: of mushy and so forth, and so we were putting

1670
01:56:19,520 --> 01:56:21,840
Speaker 1: the stuff in the screen and then pouring water over

1671
01:56:22,040 --> 01:56:24,720
Speaker 1: to print it out rather than shaking it, you know.

1672
01:56:26,800 --> 01:56:31,760
Speaker 1: Found another bead, so we but the trouble was that

1673
01:56:31,960 --> 01:56:36,040
Speaker 1: we couldn't tell if that was from the house or

1674
01:56:36,240 --> 01:56:39,720
Speaker 1: from the trash midden that was associated with the house,

1675
01:56:40,440 --> 01:56:44,560
Speaker 1: and that house had been occupied more than once. But

1676
01:56:45,480 --> 01:56:49,640
Speaker 1: but we took a date on an organic some organic substance,

1677
01:56:49,720 --> 01:56:51,840
Speaker 1: I don't remember what it was, from the same date

1678
01:56:51,920 --> 01:56:56,839
Speaker 1: as the bead, and it came out where it barely

1679
01:56:57,000 --> 01:57:01,080
Speaker 1: overlapped in terms of age with what we found it

1680
01:57:01,440 --> 01:57:03,880
Speaker 1: at Punyac Point. It was a little bit off, all right,

1681
01:57:04,040 --> 01:57:06,720
Speaker 1: but it was close, but we're still close in your terms.

1682
01:57:07,120 --> 01:57:11,080
Speaker 1: Before it was like fourteen hundred something, so it was,

1683
01:57:11,280 --> 01:57:18,760
Speaker 1: it was, it was more than that, maybe forty years off.

1684
01:57:19,240 --> 01:57:22,800
Speaker 1: All right, I should be able to say this right,

1685
01:57:23,160 --> 01:57:27,640
Speaker 1: but I can't so any rate. And it still wasn't

1686
01:57:27,800 --> 01:57:30,520
Speaker 1: what you would call a good date because there was

1687
01:57:30,560 --> 01:57:33,080
Speaker 1: a possibility it came out of the trash pit, and

1688
01:57:33,240 --> 01:57:36,640
Speaker 1: we couldn't absolutely say that. Even if the date was right,

1689
01:57:36,800 --> 01:57:41,680
Speaker 1: we couldn't say it was absolutely associated with that object. Well,

1690
01:57:41,720 --> 01:57:44,800
Speaker 1: in the meantime, one of the guys up at the

1691
01:57:45,000 --> 01:57:54,800
Speaker 1: museum had been doing this research on a certain period

1692
01:57:54,880 --> 01:58:00,880
Speaker 1: of time amongst a number of sites uh in the

1693
01:58:01,200 --> 01:58:09,120
Speaker 1: in the area that were related by time. And I

1694
01:58:09,280 --> 01:58:12,880
Speaker 1: can't remember exactly what it was, but when he did

1695
01:58:13,000 --> 01:58:18,200
Speaker 1: this the excavation, and i'm i'm, it was at a

1696
01:58:18,280 --> 01:58:23,000
Speaker 1: place called Lake Kayak. He found in a he found

1697
01:58:23,040 --> 01:58:28,920
Speaker 1: a two half beads, one half in one house, one

1698
01:58:29,040 --> 01:58:32,200
Speaker 1: half in the other house, and if you put them together,

1699
01:58:32,320 --> 01:58:38,800
Speaker 1: they made a single bead. Yeah, and the date on

1700
01:58:39,000 --> 01:58:44,080
Speaker 1: it overlap somewhat with the date that we had at

1701
01:58:44,120 --> 01:58:51,120
Speaker 1: Puny Point. And that was the only non native artifact

1702
01:58:51,640 --> 01:58:54,839
Speaker 1: found in either of those two houses. Every other artifact

1703
01:58:54,920 --> 01:58:58,840
Speaker 1: found him in. Those two houses were native made and

1704
01:58:59,120 --> 01:59:03,640
Speaker 1: dated earlier than the historic period. So now, all right,

1705
01:59:04,080 --> 01:59:07,920
Speaker 1: we had, like the three beads we found, we had

1706
01:59:08,520 --> 01:59:12,280
Speaker 1: a couple that Irving had found, although we didn't have them,

1707
01:59:13,200 --> 01:59:17,160
Speaker 1: So we found out what museum they were in, and

1708
01:59:17,880 --> 01:59:19,720
Speaker 1: we got in touch with them and said, hey, could

1709
01:59:19,720 --> 01:59:23,680
Speaker 1: you And Irving had found a couple bengals too, and

1710
01:59:24,080 --> 01:59:28,720
Speaker 1: Irving and so we got them all right, and on

1711
01:59:29,360 --> 01:59:35,440
Speaker 1: one of those bangles that was with Irving beads with

1712
01:59:35,760 --> 01:59:42,040
Speaker 1: willow wrapped up around the bengal all right, just like

1713
01:59:42,160 --> 01:59:49,440
Speaker 1: it had been we found. So we dated it and

1714
01:59:49,600 --> 01:59:54,760
Speaker 1: it came back about one hundred and fifty years too recent.

1715
01:59:55,960 --> 02:00:01,200
Speaker 1: But what happened when we unwrapped that stuff was that

1716
02:00:01,920 --> 02:00:06,240
Speaker 1: that bangle they never hammered it up far enough so

1717
02:00:06,520 --> 02:00:10,760
Speaker 1: that it overlapped when they wrapped it up, So they

1718
02:00:10,880 --> 02:00:16,080
Speaker 1: put a piece of willow across that gap to close

1719
02:00:16,160 --> 02:00:18,960
Speaker 1: the gap and then wrapped it up, and we dated

1720
02:00:19,040 --> 02:00:23,720
Speaker 1: that piece of willow and it matched our date. So

1721
02:00:24,880 --> 02:00:27,720
Speaker 1: now we've got a couple of little beads are blowing

1722
02:00:27,840 --> 02:00:31,960
Speaker 1: up people's idea of it. So anyway, that's the whole

1723
02:00:32,000 --> 02:00:36,480
Speaker 1: background that thing, all right, So then beds. So then

1724
02:00:37,080 --> 02:00:42,240
Speaker 1: we said, okay, all right, we said we've got good

1725
02:00:42,320 --> 02:00:46,840
Speaker 1: enough radiocarbon data here on these beads that say they

1726
02:00:46,920 --> 02:00:52,720
Speaker 1: could well be pre Columbian. We also know that the

1727
02:00:52,920 --> 02:00:56,560
Speaker 1: glass that those glass beads, they were some of the

1728
02:00:56,680 --> 02:01:00,440
Speaker 1: earliest made by the Aspiao process, and there's a really

1729
02:01:00,560 --> 02:01:04,080
Speaker 1: good chance that they were made in Venice, all right.

1730
02:01:05,920 --> 02:01:10,560
Speaker 1: And and we also know that you know, you've heard

1731
02:01:10,600 --> 02:01:16,400
Speaker 1: of Akham's razor. A razor is a It's like the

1732
02:01:16,840 --> 02:01:21,640
Speaker 1: simplest explanation of something is almost always the right one.

1733
02:01:23,280 --> 02:01:27,360
Speaker 1: That's my theory of automotive automotive mechanics, so any rate,

1734
02:01:28,000 --> 02:01:36,000
Speaker 1: what's it called. So what I'm saying is the the

1735
02:01:36,400 --> 02:01:39,360
Speaker 1: simplest way that those beads could have gotten there with

1736
02:01:39,480 --> 02:01:45,040
Speaker 1: overland from the old world. And so that was the

1737
02:01:45,240 --> 02:01:53,880
Speaker 1: general hypothesis, well supported hypothesis of our article, and it

1738
02:01:54,040 --> 02:01:56,760
Speaker 1: got public, all right, a lot of people disagreed with it.

1739
02:01:57,560 --> 02:02:01,240
Speaker 1: There have been other developments since then that show that

1740
02:02:01,400 --> 02:02:04,880
Speaker 1: we were probably more right than we you know, we're

1741
02:02:04,960 --> 02:02:08,120
Speaker 1: giving credit for but we don't have time. That could

1742
02:02:08,160 --> 02:02:10,840
Speaker 1: come another day, and people that want to argue, like

1743
02:02:11,680 --> 02:02:15,040
Speaker 1: the perspective is that. I mean, what's groundbreaking about it

1744
02:02:15,240 --> 02:02:19,680
Speaker 1: is that the world, that the New world was connected

1745
02:02:19,720 --> 02:02:23,400
Speaker 1: with the old world in some like unexpected way, and

1746
02:02:23,520 --> 02:02:27,880
Speaker 1: that materials could somehow flow from like prior to Columbus,

1747
02:02:28,840 --> 02:02:34,520
Speaker 1: materials were flowing from Italy into artic Alaska. Yeah, and

1748
02:02:34,680 --> 02:02:39,160
Speaker 1: there was a chain of like presumably discussion and exchange

1749
02:02:40,920 --> 02:02:42,400
Speaker 1: that would have led to that at a time when

1750
02:02:42,440 --> 02:02:45,960
Speaker 1: people thought that that was hundreds of years away. Yeah,

1751
02:02:47,240 --> 02:02:48,920
Speaker 1: and it said no, I got it from a dude.

1752
02:02:50,200 --> 02:02:55,000
Speaker 1: He was white. Yeah, Like, let's uh, like, let's assume

1753
02:02:55,040 --> 02:02:59,560
Speaker 1: you're right, bees showed up whatever fourteen hundred, Um, I'm

1754
02:02:59,600 --> 02:03:02,800
Speaker 1: pretty sure we're really right, right, But but what would

1755
02:03:02,840 --> 02:03:06,960
Speaker 1: have been like after that point, what would have been

1756
02:03:07,000 --> 02:03:09,160
Speaker 1: the next point at which those people could have been

1757
02:03:09,240 --> 02:03:12,080
Speaker 1: exposed to someone who could have given those them beads

1758
02:03:12,200 --> 02:03:16,200
Speaker 1: that like, if they hadn't come from that direction to

1759
02:03:16,360 --> 02:03:21,040
Speaker 1: this to this day, there are the only two a

1760
02:03:21,280 --> 02:03:25,400
Speaker 1: forty beads that exist in Alaska. Okay, So that was it. Yeah,

1761
02:03:25,440 --> 02:03:29,160
Speaker 1: I mean there an so they wouldn't run. Yeah, that

1762
02:03:29,280 --> 02:03:32,280
Speaker 1: the Russians brought in, But none of this, none of

1763
02:03:32,320 --> 02:03:34,880
Speaker 1: these things, you know, next time he's on he needs

1764
02:03:34,920 --> 02:03:37,600
Speaker 1: to tell you about the old crazy Roosky shotgun. We

1765
02:03:37,680 --> 02:03:39,680
Speaker 1: need to have them on like five more times. I

1766
02:03:39,720 --> 02:03:42,320
Speaker 1: feel like we could because they got a crazy Roosky shotgun.

1767
02:03:42,400 --> 02:03:44,440
Speaker 1: And I think you guys found some crazy old traps too,

1768
02:03:44,800 --> 02:03:47,440
Speaker 1: well they were they're not old. Well, there were a

1769
02:03:47,600 --> 02:03:51,680
Speaker 1: good a cash of about fifty or sixty steel traps.

1770
02:03:51,800 --> 02:03:55,320
Speaker 1: We didn't get to all those. Now I've got them.

1771
02:03:56,840 --> 02:03:58,320
Speaker 1: We didn't get to We didn't get to all the

1772
02:03:58,400 --> 02:04:01,840
Speaker 1: good wildlife stuff, the moose stuff, and the dude. You

1773
02:04:01,960 --> 02:04:03,520
Speaker 1: just need to come for a week next time. You

1774
02:04:03,600 --> 02:04:05,160
Speaker 1: need to. Yeah, like your buddy Meltzer, he had to

1775
02:04:05,200 --> 02:04:09,360
Speaker 1: come on twice. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Long there's no more

1776
02:04:09,440 --> 02:04:13,320
Speaker 1: pandemics that prevent you from going anywhere for three years. Yeah, yeah, No,

1777
02:04:13,680 --> 02:04:19,040
Speaker 1: I would. I would be willing to come back. But

1778
02:04:19,240 --> 02:04:21,720
Speaker 1: I mean there's a lot there's you know, I kind

1779
02:04:21,800 --> 02:04:24,200
Speaker 1: of bumbled my way through this because I didn't really

1780
02:04:25,360 --> 02:04:27,840
Speaker 1: I could have made myself a little clearer on some

1781
02:04:28,000 --> 02:04:30,480
Speaker 1: of these things. There was no missing clarity. Yeah okay,

1782
02:04:30,640 --> 02:04:34,600
Speaker 1: but I'm just saying that, Um, I'd be happy to

1783
02:04:34,680 --> 02:04:37,280
Speaker 1: come back and talk some more about this stuff. Because

1784
02:04:37,640 --> 02:04:41,760
Speaker 1: on the bead thing, there's there's stuff that we have

1785
02:04:41,880 --> 02:04:45,600
Speaker 1: done since then, I gotta tell you, but yeah, you

1786
02:04:45,640 --> 02:04:49,520
Speaker 1: guys tied it into Marco Polo. The biggest thing of

1787
02:04:49,760 --> 02:04:53,880
Speaker 1: this was that when the University of Alaska put this out,

1788
02:04:54,160 --> 02:04:59,600
Speaker 1: you know, as a press release, I mean the press

1789
02:04:59,720 --> 02:05:03,320
Speaker 1: pit up on this. I stumbled into it and it

1790
02:05:03,720 --> 02:05:06,000
Speaker 1: was I was like, I already know about them beads. Though,

1791
02:05:06,800 --> 02:05:09,320
Speaker 1: the best part of this whole thing that I got

1792
02:05:09,360 --> 02:05:13,600
Speaker 1: the biggest kick out and we did numerous interviews and yeah,

1793
02:05:14,240 --> 02:05:21,600
Speaker 1: La Parisian and Paris did this fifteen minute video interview

1794
02:05:21,960 --> 02:05:25,680
Speaker 1: and they had an artist do all this stuff to

1795
02:05:25,840 --> 02:05:28,520
Speaker 1: make it all classy in her I mean, it was amazing.

1796
02:05:28,960 --> 02:05:31,840
Speaker 1: But the best thing I want to make two points here.

1797
02:05:32,160 --> 02:05:34,960
Speaker 1: The best thing was that I love the most was

1798
02:05:35,840 --> 02:05:39,520
Speaker 1: that our beads, which were on the front cover of

1799
02:05:40,160 --> 02:05:45,360
Speaker 1: American Antiquity, the volume it was published in, appeared on

1800
02:05:45,480 --> 02:05:53,880
Speaker 1: the front page of the Venice newspaper. Yeah yeah, yeah.

1801
02:05:54,000 --> 02:05:58,320
Speaker 1: And the other thing was because it got so much

1802
02:05:59,120 --> 02:06:07,240
Speaker 1: publicity in the press. Some guys that have been researching glass,

1803
02:06:08,040 --> 02:06:14,000
Speaker 1: some you know, scientists researching glass produced in Venice their

1804
02:06:14,080 --> 02:06:19,240
Speaker 1: Italian for at least the last thirty thirty five years

1805
02:06:20,120 --> 02:06:23,360
Speaker 1: got in touch with us and said, would you be

1806
02:06:23,640 --> 02:06:33,480
Speaker 1: willing to do laser ablation inductively coupled plasma mass spectrometry

1807
02:06:33,960 --> 02:06:36,640
Speaker 1: on the glass on those glass beads, which is a

1808
02:06:36,720 --> 02:06:41,360
Speaker 1: different thing than than than we had done than instrumental

1809
02:06:41,440 --> 02:06:47,840
Speaker 1: neuton activation analysis, because we think that there's a good

1810
02:06:47,920 --> 02:06:53,880
Speaker 1: chance those beads were made in Venice. So we did,

1811
02:06:56,920 --> 02:07:01,240
Speaker 1: and we got a slightly different part using that other

1812
02:07:01,400 --> 02:07:08,280
Speaker 1: method and one of the researchers, and so we gave

1813
02:07:08,320 --> 02:07:12,400
Speaker 1: all our information to the Italian researchers and we're in

1814
02:07:12,480 --> 02:07:15,560
Speaker 1: the process of deciding how we're going to handle this.

1815
02:07:15,920 --> 02:07:23,360
Speaker 1: So this is a news flash. Sandro says that given

1816
02:07:23,560 --> 02:07:31,440
Speaker 1: the results of that, you know study, that the beads

1817
02:07:31,440 --> 02:07:36,040
Speaker 1: were probably made in Venice. Noah, So that's the next chapter.

1818
02:07:38,640 --> 02:07:40,680
Speaker 1: You need to find the ancestor of the man that

1819
02:07:40,800 --> 02:07:48,200
Speaker 1: made him. That's impossible. But the point is, and I'll

1820
02:07:48,280 --> 02:07:52,040
Speaker 1: make this last point, Robin and I are breed spacelists.

1821
02:07:52,080 --> 02:07:54,800
Speaker 1: We didn't know anything to beat about beads anything else.

1822
02:07:55,080 --> 02:07:58,440
Speaker 1: What we did was we took the evidence we had

1823
02:07:59,080 --> 02:08:02,360
Speaker 1: and we went what it told us. Even though we

1824
02:08:02,480 --> 02:08:05,320
Speaker 1: were swimming upstream on this thing with the beads and

1825
02:08:05,440 --> 02:08:08,360
Speaker 1: everything else. We just said, Okay, this says this, So

1826
02:08:09,720 --> 02:08:12,560
Speaker 1: that's the simplest answer is probably it is this, this

1827
02:08:12,760 --> 02:08:17,040
Speaker 1: is this, and we arrived at this. That looks like

1828
02:08:17,480 --> 02:08:19,880
Speaker 1: now with this new research, it's it's going to be

1829
02:08:20,800 --> 02:08:25,800
Speaker 1: sufficiently proven it's true just because we followed the lines

1830
02:08:25,840 --> 02:08:27,880
Speaker 1: of every and in your field of research, do you

1831
02:08:29,040 --> 02:08:31,960
Speaker 1: like do some do you know some folks who tend

1832
02:08:32,000 --> 02:08:36,040
Speaker 1: to get maybe distracted by what's not the simplest explanation,

1833
02:08:36,160 --> 02:08:38,000
Speaker 1: like they look they want to look for things that

1834
02:08:38,080 --> 02:08:42,080
Speaker 1: are some crazy. I think what happens is if you don't,

1835
02:08:42,160 --> 02:08:46,600
Speaker 1: if you can't come up with a pretty reasonable answer,

1836
02:08:47,280 --> 02:08:51,040
Speaker 1: then you start casting about looking for something else and

1837
02:08:52,000 --> 02:08:54,360
Speaker 1: you can't find And so every time you do a

1838
02:08:54,480 --> 02:08:57,920
Speaker 1: new cast about you're moving a little further away from

1839
02:08:58,400 --> 02:09:02,400
Speaker 1: from the chances of it being react. That's a that's

1840
02:09:02,400 --> 02:09:06,040
Speaker 1: the path that leads to um that they're bigfoot beats exactly.

1841
02:09:06,680 --> 02:09:09,960
Speaker 1: UFOs dropped them. Hey you know bigfoot guy, the big

1842
02:09:10,000 --> 02:09:12,240
Speaker 1: foot guy. I don't know about the big foot Well

1843
02:09:12,280 --> 02:09:17,440
Speaker 1: the guy at Washington State University. Oh yeah, Grover Krantz. Yeah, Well,

1844
02:09:17,480 --> 02:09:20,160
Speaker 1: I went to graduate school at Washington State University and

1845
02:09:20,240 --> 02:09:23,240
Speaker 1: my first year. My first year there was Grover Krantz's

1846
02:09:23,320 --> 02:09:27,000
Speaker 1: first year as a professor there, so and we all

1847
02:09:27,040 --> 02:09:34,560
Speaker 1: thought he was crazier. Oh man, it was good to

1848
02:09:34,640 --> 02:09:38,480
Speaker 1: have you on. Uh, get that book out, hold the

1849
02:09:38,480 --> 02:09:43,120
Speaker 1: book up. Oh you can get that online again. I

1850
02:09:43,160 --> 02:09:45,720
Speaker 1: was gonna yeah. Just just all you gotta do is

1851
02:09:45,960 --> 02:09:51,200
Speaker 1: say masa site, uh maza se Paleo Indians above the

1852
02:09:51,320 --> 02:09:54,600
Speaker 1: Arctic Circle. Yeah, Michael cons and it'll take you right,

1853
02:09:54,680 --> 02:09:57,000
Speaker 1: It'll take you right to the BLM wood page and

1854
02:09:57,120 --> 02:09:59,280
Speaker 1: you can download that whole thing. But you can also

1855
02:09:59,400 --> 02:10:02,600
Speaker 1: just go goal m I K E K U n

1856
02:10:02,720 --> 02:10:06,040
Speaker 1: Z and mostly like University of Alaska, right, because you

1857
02:10:06,200 --> 02:10:12,800
Speaker 1: have published a ridiculous number of journal scientific journal articles

1858
02:10:13,080 --> 02:10:19,480
Speaker 1: on all things from ancient polar bear, brown bear hybridization too.

1859
02:10:19,720 --> 02:10:26,080
Speaker 1: I don't even know so exactly people of Arctic archaeology.

1860
02:10:26,280 --> 02:10:30,600
Speaker 1: People can spend the rest of their lives reading Mike's words. Now. Yeah,

1861
02:10:30,800 --> 02:10:32,600
Speaker 1: I'm glad you made it down. I'm glad you're able

1862
02:10:32,640 --> 02:10:36,000
Speaker 1: to provide some context to what your your former colleagues

1863
02:10:36,520 --> 02:10:41,640
Speaker 1: had to say about proper normanclature. Yeah. Um, thanks man.

1864
02:10:42,320 --> 02:10:45,720
Speaker 1: Oh and everybody check I'll remember that email. Your chet

1865
02:10:45,840 --> 02:10:48,800
Speaker 1: k questions too. So you got etiquette questions, which we

1866
02:10:48,880 --> 02:10:53,480
Speaker 1: call chetick questions, email them too. Why don't we have

1867
02:10:53,560 --> 02:10:59,520
Speaker 1: our own like what we'll get it for email to

1868
02:10:59,680 --> 02:11:02,280
Speaker 1: them eat or at them eater dot com. No, it's

1869
02:11:02,360 --> 02:11:05,600
Speaker 1: meat eat the meat eater at themmeater dot com as

1870
02:11:05,640 --> 02:11:10,640
Speaker 1: it should be subject line chattkit. We'll read the whole

1871
02:11:10,680 --> 02:11:13,880
Speaker 1: episode on addicott chatt ict. So we need your questions, yep.

1872
02:11:13,960 --> 02:11:17,560
Speaker 1: And if it's uh, if today is like April third

1873
02:11:17,640 --> 02:11:21,480
Speaker 1: or April fourth, then great. But if it's April after

1874
02:11:21,600 --> 02:11:24,720
Speaker 1: April fourth, don't bother. It's too late. I don't care

1875
02:11:24,720 --> 02:11:27,640
Speaker 1: what the hell date it is. Go and pre order

1876
02:11:28,920 --> 02:11:33,200
Speaker 1: our new kids activity book, Catch a Crayfish Count the Stars. Um,

1877
02:11:33,320 --> 02:11:35,160
Speaker 1: if you want to have kids, that gotta you know,

1878
02:11:35,280 --> 02:11:37,960
Speaker 1: you know, tough kids to understand nature and have kind

1879
02:11:37,960 --> 02:11:40,760
Speaker 1: of a raw bloody edge to them. Get Catch Crayfish

1880
02:11:40,800 --> 02:11:46,080
Speaker 1: Count Stars four, said children. And raise him right all right, everybody,

1881
02:11:46,120 --> 02:12:04,680
Speaker 1: thank you, Oh seal Ram shine like silver in the sun,

1882
02:12:08,600 --> 02:12:17,640
Speaker 1: right on, all right, on alive on sweetheart. We're done,

1883
02:12:17,960 --> 02:12:22,480
Speaker 1: beat this damn horse to death, taking a new one

1884
02:12:23,200 --> 02:12:32,200
Speaker 1: and ride. We're done beat this damn horse today. So

1885
02:12:32,560 --> 02:12:35,040
Speaker 1: take your new one and ride on.