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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here.

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Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election,

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Speaker 2: and we are so excited about what that means for

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Speaker 2: the future of the show.

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Speaker 3: This is the only place where you can find honest

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Speaker 3: perspectives from the left and the right that simply does

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Speaker 3: not exist anywhere else.

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Speaker 2: So if that is something that's important to you, please

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Speaker 2: go to Breakingpoints dot com. Become a member today and

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Speaker 3: We need your help to build the future of independent

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Speaker 3: news media, and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints

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Speaker 3: dot com.

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Speaker 1: Let's turn to the media now. They're a big reason

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Speaker 1: why we're actually in this mess, and you can.

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Speaker 3: Look from CNN to Fox News for choice clips of

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Speaker 3: everybody celebrating this war talking about how great of an

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Speaker 3: idea it is. Let's start off with Van Jones, the

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Speaker 3: alleged progressive over at CNN, dispensing some great democratic wisdom.

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Speaker 1: Here's what he had to say before the strikes went off.

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Speaker 4: He's buying himself some time in some room. I was

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Speaker 4: also in the Holy Land very recently. I think progresses

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Speaker 4: underestimate how dangerous Iran is. Iran is not a normal country.

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Speaker 4: Normal countries don't blind women because they showed some hair.

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Speaker 4: They don't empower little gangs and proxies to surround the

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Speaker 4: country and fire rockets and rape people. So Iran, the

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Speaker 4: two things are clear. What they cannot have a bomb

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Speaker 4: and the why. Because they say death to America, death

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Speaker 4: to Israel, and death to all the Jews. One of

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Speaker 4: those should offend you. If you're progressives, at least one

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Speaker 4: should offend you. And so the question, though, is the

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Speaker 4: who and how. Is Israel gonna take out this nuclear

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Speaker 4: capacity by dropping people there who blow it up, or

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Speaker 4: is America going to take it out by dropping a

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Speaker 4: bomb that blows it up. But the what and the

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Speaker 4: why are clear, and I think progressors should get on

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Speaker 4: board with that. We cannot have a nuclear armed Iran.

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Speaker 4: I was in the region, you were in the region.

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Speaker 4: This is a very very dangerous power that cannot get

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Speaker 4: a nuclear weapon.

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Speaker 3: He just got back from the Holy Land. He's got

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Speaker 3: all this wisdom to drop on all of us. What

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Speaker 3: else he got for us? Van Yeah, tell us more.

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Speaker 3: By the way, if you continue to watch CNN, it's

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Speaker 3: not just the esteem Van Jones to make that case.

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Speaker 3: They also trot out CNN analyst John Bolton, former Trump

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Speaker 3: national security advisor.

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Speaker 1: Here's what he had to say.

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Speaker 5: Were you surprised that President Trump took such decisive action?

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Speaker 6: Well, let me say this unequivocally. I think President Trump

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Speaker 6: made the right decision for America to attack Iran's nuclear

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Speaker 6: weapons program. And I think we're on the verge of

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Speaker 6: potentially saying regime change in Iran as part of that.

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Speaker 6: I think this is a huge change in the Middle East.

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Speaker 6: It was a decisive action. It was the right thing

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Speaker 6: to do. I thought somebody should do it for a

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Speaker 6: long time. But better late than never.

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Speaker 1: Better late than never, such decisive action.

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Speaker 3: I mean, look even at the framing of the questions

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Speaker 3: continuing on CNN, let's put this up there on the

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Speaker 3: screen analysis they write, US strikes mark a stunning demonstration

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Speaker 3: of military might and presidential powers.

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Speaker 1: You know, stuff like this.

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Speaker 3: Really annoys the shit out of me, because, let's think

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Speaker 3: about it, given the trillion dollars that we pay, yeah,

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Speaker 3: we better have some goddamn military might, and you know

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Speaker 3: a president, of course, we are the capital of the

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Speaker 3: global empire. It actually humiliating if the military might didn't work.

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Speaker 3: Considering how much money went into the development of the

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Speaker 3: massive ordinance penetrator, the the B two bomber, the amount

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Speaker 3: that we spend just maintaining.

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Speaker 1: This entire thing.

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Speaker 3: It's like all of the assumptions and things that are

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Speaker 3: built into that. But this is why we are where

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Speaker 3: we are. And Fox is far more to pleaan because

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Speaker 3: literally they're the ones that Trump is relying on and

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Speaker 3: imbibing all of this bs from. But if you're quote

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Speaker 3: unquote you know centrist boomer, this is what you're ingesting

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Speaker 3: all day long, and that's what leads to the bipartisan

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Speaker 3: support for war. That's you know, especially just echoing what

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Speaker 3: Scott just said here, the framing is everything. Yeah, and

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Speaker 3: if you listen to this crap, you would think they're

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Speaker 3: ten seconds away from a nucritar bomb. Yeah, just bullsh

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Speaker 3: It's complete fake, it's wrong.

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Speaker 2: Well, and just even if you take Van Jones's framing

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Speaker 2: here of they can't have a bomb, okay, well, you

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Speaker 2: know what was working and much more likely to succeed

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Speaker 2: at preventing their intention of developing a nuclear weapon. Here

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Speaker 2: diplomacy the type that Obama engaged in, the type that

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Speaker 2: Trump was engaging in before whoever came in and convinced

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Speaker 2: him that you should have this poison pill of absolutely

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Speaker 2: zero enrichment. That's what actually has a chance of success.

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Speaker 2: But the minute that you say and you commit the

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Speaker 2: military to we must do whatever it takes to prevent

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Speaker 2: even the possibility of them developing a nuclear weapons something.

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Speaker 2: By the way, and I really want you guys to

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Speaker 2: think about this. A couple months ago, was this the

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Speaker 2: top of mind priority. No, it's been completely fabricated right

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Speaker 2: now in real time. But as soon as you commit

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Speaker 2: that we have to make make sure we have to

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Speaker 2: preclude even the possibility that they could develop a nuclear weapon.

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Speaker 7: You are in regime change City, which.

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Speaker 2: Is exactly where we are, and you can hear the

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Speaker 2: cynical weaponization of identity politics from Van Jones. Oh my god,

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Speaker 2: the chance we must invade them because of the chance

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Speaker 2: and the horrible treatment of women. Hey, how are women

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Speaker 2: treated in Saudi Arabia as one example, how does it

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Speaker 2: go there? How are ethnic minorities treated in our great

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Speaker 2: friend and allies Israel? How are people treated there in

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Speaker 2: the West Bank? And how's that genocide in Gaza going?

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Speaker 2: Do we need to you know, is there any priority

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Speaker 2: there for you to stop shipping the American weapons that

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Speaker 2: are enabling that those atrocities from of course not, of

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Speaker 2: course not, of course not. It is all so incredibly

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Speaker 2: cynical and lasting on the stand endpoint, because it's really

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Speaker 2: important that people understand what is being done to them.

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Speaker 2: On that panel with Van Jones, I saw, you know,

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Speaker 2: Scott Jennings there nodding his hat along.

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Speaker 1: Was there wants to bomb? I actually advocated for Trump

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Speaker 1: to Bombara? Yes, and so correct.

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Speaker 2: It is a died in the wol neocon delighted right

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Speaker 2: now at everything that's going now. I want to know,

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Speaker 2: I didn't see a single anti war voice on that

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Speaker 2: panel they're bringing, Like, why do we need to hear

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Speaker 2: from John Bolton? Why do we need to hear anything

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Speaker 2: from John Bolton?

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Speaker 7: Right now?

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Speaker 2: The number of people from the past who have been wrong,

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Speaker 2: who have advocated for some of the most disastrous foreign

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Speaker 2: policy decisions in American history, or the number of people

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Speaker 2: who are affiliated with the IDF, with the foreign government

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Speaker 2: who they trod on to provide quote unquote analysis is

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Speaker 2: extraordinary as well. So the way this is framed, the guests,

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Speaker 2: they choose the story selections. You're starting to hear all

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Speaker 2: this to oh my god, the Iranian sleeper cells in

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Speaker 2: the United States as so CNN had a chiron to

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Speaker 2: that regard as well. I think we have that somewhere

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Speaker 2: in these elements. But in any case, all of this

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Speaker 2: is meant to make you afraid. It's meant to frame

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Speaker 2: this as like an existential crisis. We have to stop

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Speaker 2: them from getting a bomb now. And once people have

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Speaker 2: accepted that framing, then there is no end, no limit

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Speaker 2: to how far they will go. And we're already like

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Speaker 2: speed run through that escalatory chain. It really is extraordinary.

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Speaker 2: Like you've said this a r I think it's such

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Speaker 2: a great point. I could never have imagined that we

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Speaker 2: would do the Iraq War only more dumber, you know, dumber,

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Speaker 2: more brazen, like more disastrous, larger country. Like the whole

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Speaker 2: thing is just so surreal to watch it all unfold.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we're not there yet, but in a sense, like

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Speaker 3: the dumbness of it all represents our current media environment

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Speaker 3: and they don't even try. You know, look again, the

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Speaker 3: Bush administration did their propaganda case for over a year,

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Speaker 3: so dom they concocted all this fake intelligence. They went

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Speaker 3: to Congress, they got everybody on the record. They went

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Speaker 3: to the United Nations Colon Powell and his famous speech,

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Speaker 3: the quote the legitimacy of the war in Iraq was

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Speaker 3: far more, you know, amongst the American people and the world,

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Speaker 3: and really, you know, set the stage for why Bush

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Speaker 3: was able to survive in the four election. Trump is

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Speaker 3: just like, now I'm going to own this entire thing.

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna do this all by myself. A quote, I

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Speaker 3: don't care what my own director of National Intelligence says.

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Speaker 3: I only care what the Israelis say. And you know,

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Speaker 3: this is where we're at. And yet the media environment is, honestly,

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Speaker 3: I still think worse today than it has ever been,

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Speaker 3: especially on Cable, considering their iron grip both on the

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Speaker 3: president's mind and on all of our high propensity boomer

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Speaker 3: voters who run our fate. And just take a look

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Speaker 3: at what they're what Donald Trump, one of those boomers,

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Speaker 3: is taking in over on Fox from Mark Levin, who,

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Speaker 3: in my opinion, is probably you know, if we were

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Speaker 3: to say, who is a Judy Miller's one of the

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Speaker 3: most responsible media figures for the war in Iraq because

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Speaker 3: of the whole curveball uranium thing. I would say Mark

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Speaker 3: Levin is probably the single most impactful person for the

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Speaker 3: reason why Donald Trump want to instruct Iran. Take a

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Speaker 3: listen to how he's celebrating it on Fox News.

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Speaker 8: Western Europe is weak. That's why wars start in Western Europe.

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Speaker 8: That's why World Work one started there and World War

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Speaker 8: two started there. And I would tell the demigods in

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Speaker 8: our country, were you going on about World War three?

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Speaker 8: Donald Trump just prevented World War three by using the

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Speaker 8: United States military to stop it.

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump just prevented World War three. Also, I do

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Speaker 3: you know these people are so dumb that it just

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Speaker 3: it stuns the mind. Europe was weak and that's why

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Speaker 3: World War one started. I mean, for somebody like me,

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Speaker 3: that's just too much. It literally a raging but that

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Speaker 3: look again, this level of stupidity, this low IQ argumentation,

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Speaker 3: the thorn in the side just complete. You know, propaganda

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Speaker 3: from Mark Levin is one of the most successful propaganda

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Speaker 3: campaigns of all time.

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Speaker 1: Let's all just admit it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, New York Times has a bunch of reporting

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Speaker 3: out this morning, but Fox News and Donald Trump watching

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Speaker 3: Fox the celebration of the Israeli strikes and all of

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Speaker 3: the analysts that they have on May had a major

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Speaker 3: role in him claiming credit for the Israeli military campaign

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Speaker 3: and for the eventual strike in the first place. We

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Speaker 3: can In fact, many of his own advisors were like,

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Speaker 3: I wish Tucker still worked at Fox because then he

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Speaker 3: would hear some sort of a posing viewpoint nothing I mean,

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Speaker 3: And yeah, maybe that's why the murdocks fired him, right,

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Speaker 3: but just shows you, like that, hold on Donald Trump,

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Speaker 3: all this alternative media podcast stuff, it's all bullshit. It

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Speaker 3: had no influence whatsoever on his decision making, even though

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Speaker 3: he relied on them to get elected, or at least

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Speaker 3: according to him, was a big reason why he got elected.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, go ahead and ask.

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Speaker 3: There's a New York Times profile of Andrew Schultz out

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Speaker 3: this morning. He's like, one of the main reasons supported

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Speaker 3: Trump was about foreign wars, and now.

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Speaker 1: I'm upset about it. Look it's all right there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Well, in that some of that New York

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Speaker 2: Times reporting to they say that Trump made the decision.

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Speaker 7: You know, it was a while ago. Trump made the decision.

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Speaker 2: So all of the like, you know, o abandons at

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Speaker 2: the White House and oh jd Vance called the Israelism

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Speaker 2: was very upset. They they've already admitted that that story

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Speaker 2: was completely fake. So a lot of I mean, everything

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Speaker 2: that unfolded in the will he or won't He weak

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Speaker 2: was theater.

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Speaker 7: It was theater.

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Speaker 2: He had made the decision to go forward with this,

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Speaker 2: and he was trying to throw them off this end

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Speaker 2: and you know, destabilize the information environment, so they weren't

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Speaker 2: sure or ultimately what was going to happen. And with

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Speaker 2: Mark Levin, I mean, it's worse than Jdi Miller because

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Speaker 2: she laundered the administration's talking points. He's not only laundering

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Speaker 2: the administration's talking points and creating the administration's talking points

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Speaker 2: using anti war rhetoric claiming he stopped World War three,

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Speaker 2: which I'm hearing from a number of like MAGA aligned

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Speaker 2: neocon types. But he also was actually in the room

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Speaker 2: during the persuasion. So he's on all sides of this

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Speaker 2: in terms of, you know, a nefarious influence here. But

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Speaker 2: this is you know, it's not just him. I just

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Speaker 2: want people to get a sense. I know you've been

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Speaker 2: watching Fox News more than I have, and the level

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Speaker 2: of propaganda that is coming out is just I mean,

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Speaker 2: it is straight drinking straight from the fire. Hydrant just

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Speaker 2: in your face, celebrate, Oh my god, we're so bad

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Speaker 2: as and how could you possibly be against this? Let's

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Speaker 2: go ahead and take a listen to a little bit

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Speaker 2: of the rhetoric that's playing out there.

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Speaker 9: Anyone who says this war isn't good is either with

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Speaker 9: the rich or has something to gain from it. And

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Speaker 9: I look at, you know, even in America, I look

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Speaker 9: at the people and the influencers that are talking poorly

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Speaker 9: about you know, this possibility that just happened tonight, and

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Speaker 9: it makes you wonder, you know, why, why are they

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Speaker 9: all of a sudden against taking out the nuclear capability

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Speaker 9: of Iran?

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Speaker 1: Well, you're not with us here against him?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And she does that little thing at the end,

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Speaker 2: she goes you just have to ask why now all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden And it's the same trick that Ted

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Speaker 2: Cruz pulled with Tucker Cruz, Ed Cruce pulled a Tucker

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Speaker 2: Carlson where you know, oh, why are you so obsessed

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Speaker 2: with Israel? Why are you so interested in the Jews?

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Speaker 2: And for those of us who were you know, I

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Speaker 2: was in college during the Iraq war build up, and

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Speaker 2: Saga remembers, well, because he was politically inclined even as

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Speaker 2: a child.

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Speaker 1: But all my class matated me because I was talking

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Speaker 1: about Iraq.

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Speaker 2: Everyone who was anti war, we were smeared as traders,

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Speaker 2: terror loving. Now we are going to be smeared as

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Speaker 2: terror loving traders who are also bigoted, anti semis that

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Speaker 2: it happens.

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Speaker 1: It's everything that's old is new again.

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Speaker 2: I mean, and I wish, but I want to just

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Speaker 2: really quick, I want to underscore this because it's going

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Speaker 2: to be on steroids because in two thousand and three,

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Speaker 2: we didn't have AI, we didn't have Palenteer, we didn't

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Speaker 2: have you know, the sort of authoritarian tactics that we've

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Speaker 2: seen play out already to crush dissent, whether it's calling

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Speaker 2: up the thousands of National Guards and Marines into an

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Speaker 2: American city. By the way, they're still there even though

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Speaker 2: there's literally no protests anymore, kidnapping students off the street.

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Speaker 2: Mahmud Khalil, by the way, guys, was just released already

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Speaker 2: out protesting for Palestine.

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Speaker 7: Again. What an absolute legend that man is.

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Speaker 2: But you know, blocking any going through social media to

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Speaker 2: make sure you haven't said the wrong thing about Israel, like,

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Speaker 2: all of these tactics are going to be deployed against

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Speaker 2: an anti war movement. The rhetorical tactics, the surveillance tactics,

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Speaker 2: the authoritarian tactics.

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Speaker 7: It will be because this.

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Speaker 2: Some of these tools were not available in two thousand

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Speaker 2: and three. So I want you to understand what is

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Speaker 2: coming and what they're already setting us up for. And

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Speaker 2: you know, listen, Democrats participated and helping create the possibility

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Speaker 2: of this rhetorical trick of claiming everyone who opposes the

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Speaker 2: interest of the foreign nation of Israel is an anti Semite,

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Speaker 2: and they are going to hit that messaging so hard.

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Speaker 7: They're going to move.

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Speaker 2: From what that lady did of like sort of alluding

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Speaker 2: to it, vaguely suggesting it too. They will come right

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Speaker 2: out and say that anyone who was opposed to this

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Speaker 2: war is an anti semi mark my words.

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Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, it's going to happen.

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Speaker 3: And look, Patriot Act two point zero, that's not out

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Speaker 3: of the question. And if things really get into it,

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Speaker 3: the Trump administration.

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Speaker 1: They're going to roll us. Okay, all everybody, and so

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Speaker 1: be prepared.

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Speaker 3: Be prepared, because you know, freedom fries and all of that.

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Speaker 3: That seemed insane, but you know, the vast majority of

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Speaker 3: a lot of people they supported it, it took years

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Speaker 3: to actually come back and yeah, it's just absolutely devastating.

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Speaker 3: Why don't we move on to the Democrats here and

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Speaker 3: to talk about their reaction.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so completely pathetic in many regards, especially from the leadership.

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Speaker 2: Not going to say there haven't been any good reactions.

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Speaker 2: And I think the base so far has really showed

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Speaker 2: up in a positive way.

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Speaker 7: But even the people who you.

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Speaker 2: Know, like I'm about to show you Adam Schiff, who

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Speaker 2: want to oppose this war because they don't like Trump,

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Speaker 2: they frame it in all this like procedural garbage. Like

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Speaker 2: what I'm really outraged about is you don't give me

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Speaker 2: the proper briefing before this happened, or this is like

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Speaker 2: that's the worst one.

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Speaker 7: The next level up.

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Speaker 2: Is the War Power Star Resolution, which, by the way,

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Speaker 2: is important. It's important to have that vote and get

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Speaker 2: everybody on the record. But guys just say you're against war.

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Speaker 2: It's really not that freaking hard here in any case

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Speaker 2: is Adam Schiff doing his whole like they didn't give

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Speaker 2: me the briefing, And that's what I'm really upset about.

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Speaker 7: Let's take a listen.

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Speaker 10: The failure to brief Democratic lawmakers the making this just

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Speaker 10: another partisan exercise by the administration. When it comes to

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Speaker 10: something as serious as the decision to potentially engage in

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Speaker 10: warfare with another nation, it means that you're not going

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Speaker 10: to have the whole country bought into this, which is

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Speaker 10: a real problem. If everything goes well, then maybe it

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Speaker 10: works out fine in the sense of not being an

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Speaker 10: issue that tears a part of the American people. But

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Speaker 10: if things don't go well, if Iran retaliates, if we

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Speaker 10: get in an escalating war with Iran, and you don't

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Speaker 10: have the country bought in because the president didn't seek

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Speaker 10: the approval of Congress, because he didn't make the case

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Speaker 10: of the American people, because he didn't even inform one

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Speaker 10: of the parties in Congress. That's when you have a

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Speaker 10: real problem engaging in warfare on a partisan basis. So

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Speaker 10: a lot of risks here for the country, which you

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Speaker 10: know is the reason why you come to Congress in

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Speaker 10: the first place, is the reason why our constitution says

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Speaker 10: Congress has the power to declare war, not the president.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, scandal, he didn't breathe you and that man is

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Speaker 2: a senator now, by the way, which is just like

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Speaker 2: disturbing Andrew Cuomo also out with a sad statement about

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Speaker 2: the process here and how bad the process was.

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Speaker 7: We could put this up on.

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Speaker 2: The screen D two going into going into election day.

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Speaker 2: Ron cannot have nuclear capability, that's number one. So he's

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Speaker 2: validating the frame right onto the gates, and many of

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Speaker 2: these Chuck Schumer, Hakeem Jeffries do a similar thing. Aron

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Speaker 2: can't have nuclear capability, that's number one. I don't support

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Speaker 2: the way he did it. I believe he should have

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Speaker 2: consulted Congress. This is Trump saying I don't have to

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Speaker 2: follow the rules. So it's he didn't follow the rules.

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Speaker 2: But you know he supports like iron can't have any

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Speaker 2: so he completely validates the framing and then his only

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Speaker 2: quibble is like he didn't quite go about it in

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Speaker 2: the quite in the right procedural process way.

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Speaker 7: Just completely ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: Meanwhile, you know, if you want to look for a

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Speaker 2: study in contrast and someone who actually is getting it right,

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Speaker 2: as he did during the Iraq War, one of the

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Speaker 2: few Bernie's Anders was actually doing one of his rallies

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Speaker 2: on the Fight Oligarchy tour in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and he

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Speaker 2: received the news live while he's up there speaking to

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Speaker 2: the crowd. I think he was about to wrap his speech,

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Speaker 2: and you hear a woman yell out from the crowd.

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Speaker 2: Trump just bombed a ron and then fash Heir, his

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Speaker 2: aid runs up with the with the Trump tweet, and

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Speaker 2: Bernie reads it out. Let's go ahead and take a

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Speaker 2: listen to the organic crowd reaction at this Bernie Sanders rally.

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Speaker 7: Let's take a listen.

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Speaker 1: Oh I just gave me the kills.

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Speaker 11: Let me.

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Speaker 1: Oh your god, Oh your god.

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Speaker 11: Oh god. This is a statement statement from Donald.

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Speaker 4: Oh, dear god, we have completed a very successful with

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Speaker 4: three new real sights and a one.

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Speaker 7: And they go on to chant no more war.

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Speaker 2: Birdie put on a statement and listen, guys, this is

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Speaker 2: this is the way to do it. The headline of

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Speaker 2: the statement is no war with a run not.

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Speaker 7: They didn't give me a briefing.

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Speaker 2: And he concludes by saying, the American people were lied

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Speaker 2: to about Vietnam with tragic consequences. American people were lied

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Speaker 2: to about a rock with tragic consequences. The American people

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Speaker 2: are being lied to again today. We cannot allow history

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Speaker 2: to repeat itself. The US faces enormous problems here at

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Speaker 2: home which we must addressed we cannot allow ourselves to

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Speaker 2: be dragged into another Middle East war based on lies.

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Speaker 7: How hard is that to say?

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Speaker 1: Soccer?

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Speaker 7: How hard does that?

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Speaker 3: It's not apparently very difficult, but it does show you,

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Speaker 3: you know, democratic leadership is a Joe Kaking, Jeffries, Chuck Schumer.

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Speaker 3: They need to reac as Rocana has ethics demonstrated, but

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Speaker 3: that crowd reaction shows you. Look, I mean, the opportunity

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Speaker 3: is there for the taking if you want it, if

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Speaker 3: you want it, so look, we'll give some credit also

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Speaker 3: where it's doe. Senator Tim Kaine spoke out against this

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Speaker 3: very forcefully.

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Speaker 1: Let's take a listen.

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Speaker 5: Well, the Vice President was on another network earlier this

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Speaker 5: morning and said, we are not at war with Iran,

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Speaker 5: we are at war with Iran's nuclear program. There seems

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Speaker 5: to be a lot of legal person on the definition

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Speaker 5: of the word war here. What do you make of

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Speaker 5: that description?

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Speaker 12: I think it's bs and I think anybody hearing it

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Speaker 12: would conclude the same thing when you're bombing another nation,

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Speaker 12: asked them if they think it's war?

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Speaker 13: They do?

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Speaker 12: Would we think it was war if Iran bombed a

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Speaker 12: US nuclear facility, of course we would, and the US

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Speaker 12: we've invaded two neighbors of Iran, Afghanistan, and Iraq to

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Speaker 12: topple their regimes since two thousand.

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Speaker 1: Those were wars.

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Speaker 12: This is the US jumping into a war of choice

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Speaker 12: at Donald Trump's urging, without any compelling national security interest

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Speaker 12: for the United States to act in this way, particularly

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Speaker 12: without a debate and vote in Congress. We should not

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Speaker 12: be sending troops and risking troops lives in an offensive

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Speaker 12: war without a debate in Congress.

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Speaker 2: So he says, you know, offensive war of choice makes

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Speaker 2: the Iraq war comparison. He was the first person in

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Speaker 2: the Senate to jump out with a war powers resolution.

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Speaker 2: By the way, let's put the last piece up on

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Speaker 2: the screen here, the War Powers resolution. Where we are

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Speaker 2: with the numbers, So you've got sixty members of Congress,

441
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 2: which is pathetic. There should be so many more, maybe

442
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:37,600
Speaker 2: more of signed on today who have signed on to

443
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,320
Speaker 2: the effort led by Massey. But he's the only Republican

444
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:44,919
Speaker 2: who has joined this effort either in the House or

445
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,399
Speaker 2: the Senate. So you've got fifty nine Democrats one Republican

446
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,679
Speaker 2: after the attack, This was actually I was happy to

447
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,359
Speaker 2: see this. Chuck Schumer announced support for the War Powers

448
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,399
Speaker 2: Act is urging all centers to vote for it, so

449
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:57,480
Speaker 2: that's something at.

450
00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 7: Least, but you know, it's utterly pathetic.

451
00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:02,159
Speaker 2: There's one Republican on this thing after all the like,

452
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,119
Speaker 2: oh we're anti war, blah blah blah. But you know,

453
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 2: to focus in on the Democratic the Democrats here sober.

454
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,879
Speaker 2: There is also some scheming afoot as well, because there's

455
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 2: an alternative war Powers resolution that's being offered by several

456
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 2: APAC aligned Democratic members right now that you know, I'm

457
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,240
Speaker 2: sure is meant to somehow we can and screw with

458
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 2: and undercut this effort that is going forward, which again important.

459
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 7: To have this vote. It was.

460
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 2: It's important to know where everybody stands and to get

461
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,520
Speaker 2: those votes on the record because everyone who votes for

462
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,879
Speaker 2: this war needs to be primaried and turfed out of office.

463
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 2: So we need to have hard and fast where were

464
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:45,879
Speaker 2: you at this point in time and what did you

465
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:46,480
Speaker 2: have to say?

466
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 13: But the.

467
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 2: Message needs to be no war, that's it, not you

468
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 2: didn't brief me, not you didn't take the vote, not

469
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 2: you didn't follow.

470
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,439
Speaker 7: The rules, No war with Iran.

471
00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 2: This is an offensive war of choice, It is an

472
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:04,159
Speaker 2: illegal war. There was no national security interest here. That

473
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,640
Speaker 2: is the message, and we are being led into war

474
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,120
Speaker 2: once again, just like we were back at a rock.

475
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,400
Speaker 2: It's history repeating itself. That's what these people need to say.

476
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 2: And the fact that there are so few of them

477
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,160
Speaker 2: who could just just be cynical. Just see the political

478
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 2: opening here. There's already been, by the way, a dozen

479
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,680
Speaker 2: anti war protests and cities across the country, and this thing,

480
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 2: you know, this thing is just getting kicked off. So

481
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 2: the bases with you, independence are with you. There is

482
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,400
Speaker 2: a massive political opening here that they just can't seem

483
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:33,439
Speaker 2: to be able to seize on.

484
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, especially you know, I wouldn't bet I'm not saying

485
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 3: Zoron didn't do a lot of work, but I wouldn't

486
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 3: bet against the strikes having at least some impact on

487
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 3: some of his latest polling. If he does win, at

488
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 3: least at a narrative level, you should look at that.

489
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 3: And there's a lot of young people right who will

490
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 3: be furious. I actually know some of my friends who

491
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:50,439
Speaker 3: live in New York who are like, that's it, I'm

492
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,199
Speaker 3: voting for Zorm because they're specifically just pissed off about

493
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,919
Speaker 3: how Cuomo and everybody else is so aligned with the

494
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 3: Israeli war machines. So yeah, take take advantage, all right,

495
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 3: But listen, they never learned, they never will, or maybe

496
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 3: they will.

497
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 1: I don't know. We'll continue to track it. Here on

498
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 1: the show.

499
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,360
Speaker 3: We do have John Mehersheimer standing Brian, Professor John Meihshimer.

500
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 1: Let's get to it.

501
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,200
Speaker 3: Very excited now to be joined by Professor John Meihershchimer

502
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,680
Speaker 3: of the University of Chicago, one of my personal heroes. Sir,

503
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 3: thank you very much for joining us again.

504
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 13: My pleasure to be here, absolutely.

505
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 3: All right, So let's get into a Professor, you've long

506
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 3: warned about the circumstances around this. Now we have the

507
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 3: situation where the United States has struck Uranian nuclear facilities.

508
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 3: We want to get your reactions, specifically to the way

509
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,640
Speaker 3: that Israel has dragged the United States into this situation,

510
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 3: something you've warned about for quite some time. Here we're

511
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 3: going to play a little bit from Prime Minister Netan Yahoo.

512
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 1: We're going to get your reaction. Let's take a listen.

513
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:47,400
Speaker 11: Congratulations, President Trump. Your bold decision to target Iran's nuclear

514
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 11: facilities with the awesome and righteous mind of the United

515
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 11: States will change history. In Operation Rising Line, Israel has

516
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 11: done truly amazing things. But in tonight's action against Iran's

517
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 11: nuclear facilities, America has been truly unsurpassed. It has done

518
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 11: what no other country on Earth could do. History will

519
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 11: record that President Trump acted to deny the world's most

520
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 11: dangerous regime the world's most dangerous weapons. His leadership today

521
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 11: has created a pivot of history that can help lead

522
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 11: the Middle East and beyond to a future of prosperity

523
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 11: and peace. President Trump and I often say peace through strength.

524
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 11: First come strength, then comes peace.

525
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 3: Professor, what do you make of BB's comments there and

526
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 3: where things go from here?

527
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:48,120
Speaker 13: Well, I actually think he's delusional. I think the argument

528
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 13: that we have solved the nuclear problem with Iran is wrong,

529
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 13: And if anything, it's more likely than ever that Iran

530
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 13: will get nuclear weapons. Almost everybody I know argues that

531
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 13: if Iran wants nuclear weapons, there's nothing you can do

532
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 13: to prevent them from getting nuclear weapons. They have so

533
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 13: much know how, they have so much capability, And even

534
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 13: if we were to destroy all of the existing facilities,

535
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 13: they could rebuild them underneath a bigger mountain and eventually

536
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 13: nuclear weapons. And furthermore, when you attack them like this,

537
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 13: you give them greater incentive than ever to actually go

538
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 13: get nuclear weapons. Watching what's been happening, one says to oneself,

539
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 13: why didn't they get nuclear weapons earlier? This wouldn't have

540
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,439
Speaker 13: happened if they had nuclear deterrent. So I would argue that,

541
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 13: first of all, we did not get all of their

542
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 13: nuclear infrastructure. We did not destroy all of their nuclear capability. Secondly,

543
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 13: even if we did, they can rebuild it. And third

544
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 13: they now have a great incentive than ever to get

545
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 13: nuclear weapons. So we have not solved the nuclear problem

546
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 13: by doing this.

547
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 2: Professor, what is your understanding of the pressures that were

548
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 2: brought to bear that led us to this point of

549
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 2: being directly engaged in what Trump is now saying, in

550
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 2: true social may well be a regime change war.

551
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 13: Yeah, well, just quickly, to talk about regime change is

552
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:29,199
Speaker 13: changing the objective here. Trump initially said that this was

553
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 13: simply about taking out or Rand's nuclear capability. He probably

554
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 13: now realizes that we have not done that, cannot do that.

555
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 13: So now we're talking about regime change on the assumption

556
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 13: that if we put in a new regime that those

557
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 13: new Iranian leaders are not going to want nuclear weapons.

558
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,199
Speaker 13: This too, is delusional. What Iranian in his or her

559
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 13: right mind, doesn't want a nuclear deterrent at this point

560
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 13: in time. Furthermore, we're not going to get regime change

561
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 13: in all likelihood if you look at what's happening inside Iran,

562
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 13: what's happening, and what the historical record always says happens

563
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 13: in these cases, that the people are coming together to

564
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 13: support the regime and there's a rally around the flag effect.

565
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 13: So I think this is not going to work to

566
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 13: cause regime change anymore than it's going to work to

567
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 13: eliminate the nuclear capability. Now, with regard to your question

568
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 13: about the influence of Israel and the lobby on the

569
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 13: United States, the influence of the lobby in the United

570
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,400
Speaker 13: States is awesome. There's just no question about that. This

571
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 13: is a war for Israel. Basically, the Israel firsters trump

572
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:43,239
Speaker 13: the American firsters, and it's hardly surprising. We've seen it

573
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 13: many times and will undoubtedly see it many times moving forward.

574
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 3: Professor, you know, one of the things you've always warned

575
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 3: about as well is about this realignment not only with

576
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 3: Iran but also with the other powers. We could put

577
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 3: this here up on the screen. A reaction from Dmitri Medvedev,

578
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 3: the former president of Russia. He says, here, what have

579
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 3: the Americans accomplished with their nighttime strikes on these nuclear

580
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 3: sites in Iran? Critical infrastructure appears to only been affected

581
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 3: sustainably minor damage.

582
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 1: He says.

583
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,239
Speaker 3: Iran's political regime has survived in all likelihood, has come

584
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 3: out even stronger. The people are rallying around the country

585
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 3: spiritual leadership. But the most important line was a number

586
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 3: of countries are ready to supply Iran with their own

587
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 3: nuclear warheads. What do you make of this warning from

588
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 3: the Russians and what the follow on effects of this

589
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 3: will be throughout the world, You know, the destruction perhaps

590
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 3: of the non plural Aspiration Treaty, the incentive for states

591
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 3: opposed to the United States and to the West to

592
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 3: pursue a nuclear weapons program.

593
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 13: Well, there are a number of different issues here. First

594
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 13: of all, I don't think that there's any country with

595
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 13: nuclear weapons that would give nuclear warheads to Iran. I

596
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 13: think the only possibility is Pakistan, and I don't think

597
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 13: that that's in the cards. Could be wrong, but I

598
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 13: don't think that's in the cards. I think the greater

599
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 13: dangerous I said before, is that Iran will develop its

600
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 13: own nuclear weapons. With regard to the NPT and the

601
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 13: nuclear proliferation regime that we've established over the years, which

602
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 13: has been so effective, I think this is a hammer

603
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 13: blow to that regime. I think almost everybody agrees about

604
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 13: that point. The fact is that the message from what

605
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 13: has happened in Iran is that you should have nuclear

606
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 13: weapons because that is they are the ultimate detern That's

607
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 13: the only way you can ensure that Israel in the

608
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 13: United States won't do a tag team attack on you.

609
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 13: Just look at Kim Jong un in North Korea. He

610
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 13: developed nuclear weapons. He's sitting He's sitting happily in Pyongyang

611
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 13: because he knows we're not going to attack him because

612
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 13: he has nuclear weapons. If you look at what happened

613
00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 13: in Libya, what happened in Syria, what's now happening in Ukraine,

614
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 13: and what's happening in Iran, it's quite clear that you

615
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 13: want to have nuclear weapons. They are the ultimate deterrent.

616
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 13: So I think this has done great damage to the

617
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 13: nuclear proliferation regime. With regard to our reputation around the world,

618
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 13: I mean, the United States is correctly seen as a

619
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 13: road state even in East Asia. Today allies like Japan

620
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 13: and South Korea are basically condemning US for what we've done.

621
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 13: I mean, what can you say about the United States?

622
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 13: I mean, first of all the duplicatest diplomacy here, and

623
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 13: then this idea that we have to right just to

624
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 13: run around the world attacking countries whenever we see fit. Furthermore,

625
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 13: let's not lose sight of the fact that the United

626
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 13: States is supporting the Israeli genocide in Gaza. This is

627
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 13: much worse than anything that's happening to the Iranians. There's

628
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 13: a genocide taking place, the Israelis are executing it, and

629
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 13: we're complicit in this, implicitus in this. I mean, I

630
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 13: think America's reputation is in tatters. Sure, were the most

631
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 13: powerful state on the planet, and countries have to be

632
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 13: very careful in their criticism of US. But I think

633
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 13: almost everybody outside of Israel, in the United States and

634
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 13: a few European leaders, understands that the United States is

635
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 13: basically out of control.

636
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 2: Let's talk a little bit more about Gaza and how

637
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 2: this fits in this picture. I can put E three

638
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 2: up on the screen, which is just, you know, the

639
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 2: latest article in the ongoing hell and ongoing genocide that

640
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 2: is being perpetrated inside of Gaza. This is from Haratz,

641
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 2: which is an Israeli newspaper, says, as living space in

642
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 2: Gaza shrinks, remaining pockets endure hellish conditions, nearly two million

643
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 2: people crammed now into less than eighteen percent of Gaza.

644
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 2: This is all of course getting now much less attention

645
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 2: because now the world is focused on this war with Iran,

646
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 2: you know, the war. The Israeli initial strikes, of course,

647
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 2: done with our support, were launched at a time when

648
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 2: there was increasing public and global discontent with the continuation

649
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 2: of this genocide. Do you see those two things as

650
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,719
Speaker 2: linked in terms of what led to this particular timing.

651
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 13: Yes. I think that the Israelis have always understood that

652
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 13: the best chance for cleansing Gaza and the West Bank

653
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 13: was in the context of a big war. October seventh,

654
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 13: of course, provided the pretext for bombing Gaza and starting

655
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 13: the genocide. And there's no question in my mind that

656
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 13: the Israelis understood that if they started a war against Iran,

657
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 13: the focus would be on Iran, especially if they brought

658
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 13: the Americans in, and that would leave them free to

659
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 13: ramp up the genocide and possibly drive the Palestinians out

660
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 13: of Gaza. I mean, it's very clear that that is

661
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 13: their goal. And then the question you have to ask

662
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 13: yourself is, given that goal, what is the best way

663
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 13: for them to achieve that end? And it's quite clear

664
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 13: to me that starting a major war with Iran goes

665
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 13: a long way towards helping them cleanse gossip.

666
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 3: So what do you think that how does this fit again?

667
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 3: You know, kind of returning to the global picture, we

668
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 3: could put the next one here up on the screen,

669
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 3: which is about this recently completed Iranian Chinese freight line.

670
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:29,879
Speaker 3: Now nobody's claiming, you know, that this would be able

671
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 3: to replace the Straits of WARMUS. But if there is

672
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 3: a larger US military intervention, what will that lead to,

673
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 3: you know, in terms of US power that's able to

674
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 3: project in East Asia and elsewhere along with our reputation,

675
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 3: What is the logical conclusion that adversarial states would want

676
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,359
Speaker 3: to make after further US involvement here in the Middle East.

677
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 13: Well, look, there's no question that American policymakers believe that

678
00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 13: the principal threat that the United States faces today is

679
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 13: from China. China is widely seen as a pure competitor,

680
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 13: and the United States has been interested in pivoting to

681
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 13: Asia since twenty eleven, when Hillary Clinton, who was then

682
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 13: Secretary of State, said We're going to pivot to Asia,

683
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 13: but we cannot pivot to Asia in any meaningful way,

684
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 13: in large part because of the Ukraine War and what's

685
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,879
Speaker 13: going on in the Middle East. And if you look

686
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,879
Speaker 13: at all the naval and air assets that we have

687
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 13: in the Middle East now that should be in East Asia,

688
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 13: you see that we have greatly weakened our strategic situation

689
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 13: in East Asia, and we are in a poor position

690
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 13: at this point in time for purposes of containing China.

691
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,359
Speaker 13: This is not in our interest. And of course this

692
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 13: shows you what an albatross Israel is around our neck.

693
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,280
Speaker 13: So there's no doubt that in terms of basic American

694
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 13: grand strategy, this is not good. And if you hypothesize

695
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,359
Speaker 13: the situation where we're stuck in the Middle East for

696
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 13: months on end, this is an even worse situation. With

697
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 13: regard to our reputation. I think our reputation has been

698
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 13: badly damaged. I think there's no question about that, and

699
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 13: I think it will only get worse. And by the way,

700
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 13: one thing we haven't talked about is what the consequences

701
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,359
Speaker 13: will be for Donald Trump on the home front. I mean,

702
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 13: Trump is betting that this is sort of a one

703
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 13: and done operation. We went in, we did the dirty work,

704
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 13: we solved the problem, and now we can celebrate, have

705
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 13: a victory parade or what have you. I don't think

706
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 13: this is the way this one's going to play out.

707
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 13: I don't think the Iranians are going to roll over

708
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 13: and play dead. I think we're probably going to have

709
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 13: to launch further operations against I Ran military operations that

710
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 13: is down the road, and there's no evidence that this

711
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 13: one is going to be settled quickly. And as I

712
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 13: said before, I think the Iranians, if anything, you're going

713
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 13: to get nuclear weapons and they're going to continue down

714
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,399
Speaker 13: the nuclear road. And Trump is going to have egg

715
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 13: on his face. It's not going to be a great victory.

716
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 13: People are going to question why we did this, and

717
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 13: so I think he's going to have problems on the

718
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 13: home front as a result of all this.

719
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 1: Totally agree, Professor.

720
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 2: How do you separate out the influence of the Israel

721
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 2: lobby and the genuine ideological belief among many American elite

722
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 2: political leaders that endless support for Israel does directly serve

723
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 2: the interest of American empire. Like, for example, I think

724
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 2: Joe Biden was a very sincere, ideological Zionist who was

725
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 2: ideologically committed to supporting Israel come hell or high water.

726
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 2: How do you separate those two things out.

727
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 13: Well, it is somewhat difficult to separate him out. But

728
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:57,439
Speaker 13: the key point to remember is that any policymaker or

729
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 13: any politician or aspiring politician who criticizes Israel will find

730
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 13: out very quickly that that person has the lobby's gun

731
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 13: sights on him or her. The lobby will go to

732
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 13: great lengths to destroy that person's career and make sure

733
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 13: that he or she never gets elected to office. We'll

734
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 13: figure this out very quickly. And they also understand that

735
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 13: if you support Israel hook line and sinker, you'll get

736
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:34,320
Speaker 13: big time support from the lobby, someone like Lindsey Graham

737
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:40,280
Speaker 13: or Tom Cotton. They benefit enormously from making arguments that

738
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 13: the lobby finds in Israel's interest. If you're a general

739
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,879
Speaker 13: in the American military and you're thinking about what you're

740
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 13: going to do after you retire, you understand full well

741
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 13: that if you criticize Israel, it'll be very hard to

742
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:58,439
Speaker 13: find a job once you retire. And at the same time,

743
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 13: you understand that if you supp for it Israel, if

744
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 13: you back it and you push the American military to

745
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 13: do things that are said to be in Israel's interest,

746
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 13: your job prospects once you retire will be much better.

747
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 13: I could go on and on about this. Yeah, but

748
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 13: Israel lobby has enormous influence in the United States. There

749
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 13: is no case in the historical record that even comes

750
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:24,879
Speaker 13: close to this every time.

751
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 2: Do you think that grip is loosening at all? We

752
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 2: were just talking about the New York City mayoral race

753
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,280
Speaker 2: Andrew Cuomo and Zoronman Donnie and he's been the supporter

754
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 2: of BDS, you know, calls it a genocide and Palestine

755
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 2: this is Zoran. And Andrew Cuomo is you know, very

756
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 2: much the APAC backed candidate, And I don't know who's

757
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 2: going to win, but he's certainly giving Cuomo run for

758
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 2: his money.

759
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 7: You also have a number.

760
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 2: Of vocal critics in Congress who have now survived that

761
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 2: APAC onslaught people like Rasheta Telei, people like on the

762
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 2: right Thomas Massey. So do you think that some of

763
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 2: that influence is beginning to crack in age well.

764
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 13: Two points. One is that there's no question that the

765
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 13: lobby is in deep trouble and Israel is in deep trouble.

766
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 13: When you talk about the public at large, the word

767
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 13: is now out thanks to shows like yours and all

768
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 13: sorts of other alternative media sites. The fact is that

769
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 13: the word is out that Israel is committing a genocide,

770
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 13: that Israel is a strategic liability, that Israel drags us

771
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 13: into wars like this, and so forth and so on.

772
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 13: The problem is that the Israeli lobby or the Israel

773
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 13: lobby is still deadly effective at the policy level. They

774
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 13: have a lock on American policy makers, and people like

775
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 13: Thomas Massey and others are small in number. They're just

776
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 13: not many people at the policy level are willing to

777
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 13: contest the Israelis. So what has to happen here is

778
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 13: that the public opinion has to translate into a change

779
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,919
Speaker 13: policy level. And I think the only place where that's

780
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 13: possible is in the Democratic Party. It doesn't look like

781
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 13: it's at all possible in the Republican Party. But if

782
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 13: you look at the polls and you look at how

783
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,359
Speaker 13: young Democrats and this includes, by the way, many young

784
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:18,839
Speaker 13: American Jews were deeply disaffected by what's happening here for

785
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 13: good moral and strategic reasons. But I think that's the hope.

786
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:25,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, start on a personal level.

787
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 3: You know, I read your book in two thousand and eight,

788
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 3: The Israel Lobby, huge influence, hugely influential. I read a

789
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 3: lot about realism and restraint, and I learned so much

790
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 3: from you just through your pages. Is it surreal to

791
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 3: watch the neo cons again get a victory.

792
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 1: I didn't think it would happen.

793
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 3: I know, I've seen the popularization of your work from

794
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 3: that time to today. We have this broad restraint community,

795
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,359
Speaker 3: and I feel like it's all completely failed. You know,

796
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 3: just to watch it all happen again, to see Lindsey Graham,

797
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 3: to see Fox News Mark Levin, What is it like

798
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 3: for you, having lived through this twice now, to watch

799
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 3: the you know, the war drums beat the same people

800
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 3: who are wrong previously get to claim a victory.

801
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 1: Lab It just seems so surreal to me.

802
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 13: It does seem surreal. I mean, sometimes, as you would expect,

803
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:14,320
Speaker 13: I'm guilty of wishful thinking, and I want to believe

804
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 13: that the lobby's power will be curved, and we will

805
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:23,760
Speaker 13: do the right thing, both strategically and morally. But it happens,

806
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 13: it turns out very quickly that that is wishful thinking,

807
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 13: and you realize that the lobby is as powerful as ever.

808
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 13: And this is all to say that I think, moving

809
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 13: forward over the next couple months and even over the

810
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:40,439
Speaker 13: next couple of years, the lobby will have a lock

811
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 13: on American policy and they will push us to do

812
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 13: things in the Middle East that are not in our interest.

813
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:51,800
Speaker 13: I don't see Donald Trump contesting the lobby in any

814
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 13: meaningful way. He's a guy who likes to talk tough,

815
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 13: but ultimately he's not very tough. And when it comes

816
00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 13: to Israel, just look at what he did in his

817
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 13: first term and what he's done since taking office in

818
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 13: his second term, and there is no reason to think

819
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 13: that he's going to contest Israel in any meaningful way.

820
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 2: Professor, My last question for you here is under the

821
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,479
Speaker 2: Obama administration that Israel lobby did take one significant blow,

822
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 2: which was the successful negotiation of the JCPO way.

823
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 7: What do you think that created the conditions.

824
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 2: That made that deal possible? Even though you know Bby

825
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 2: at now who came here and preached to Congress.

826
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 7: You had a.

827
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 2: Robust debate, a huge propaganda effort to try to kill

828
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 2: that deal, and it was able to ultimately go through.

829
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,399
Speaker 2: So what do you think created that possibility?

830
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 13: Well, I think that Obama fully understood that the lobby

831
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 13: was powerful, but nevertheless its policies were not good for

832
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 13: the United States. I think he understood that Israel is

833
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,320
Speaker 13: an albatross around their neck. He would never say that publicly,

834
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:03,359
Speaker 13: but I'll I'm fully confident that he understood that, and

835
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:07,240
Speaker 13: he understood that getting a deal with Iran made sense,

836
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 13: and he worked over time to fashion a deal. And

837
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 13: he had the benefit that he had a number of

838
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 13: European countries, the French, the British, and the Germans, plus

839
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 13: the Russians, plus the Chinese on his side, and he

840
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 13: was able to barely push through the JCPOA, the nuclear

841
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 13: agreement with Iran. He took tremendous heat along the way

842
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 13: from the Israelis and from the lobby. And then when

843
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 13: Trump came to power in twenty seventeen January twenty seventeen,

844
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 13: he made it clear that he was going to do

845
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 13: away with the JCPOA, and of course in twenty eighteen,

846
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 13: the summer of twenty eighteen, he walked away from it.

847
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 13: And then you want to remember that when we started,

848
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 13: when we started dealing with this issue again, when the

849
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,399
Speaker 13: Trump administration started dealing with this issue again a few

850
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 13: months ago, Steve Whitcoff and Trump himself, we're talking about

851
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 13: working out a deal that looked like the JCPOA. The

852
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,839
Speaker 13: lobby then moved in, unsurprisingly, and the lobby made it

853
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 13: clear to Whitcoff and to Trump that there was not

854
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 13: going to be a deal like the JCPOA, and Witcoff

855
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 13: and Trump both did one hundred and eighty degree turns,

856
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 13: said the Iranians cannot have any nuclear enrichment at all,

857
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 13: which was allowed in the original JCPOA, and the Iranians

858
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 13: said that was unacceptable. And here we are today. So

859
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 13: what is the bottom line. The bottom line is that

860
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 13: common sense won a victory during the Obama period, but

861
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:50,720
Speaker 13: that was quickly overturned. That victory was quickly overturned by Trump.

862
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 13: And then it looked like Trump might win a victory

863
00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 13: for common sense this time, and it was quickly returned

864
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 13: by the lobby. So you see the power of the

865
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 13: lobby at every turn, it's almost impossible for a president

866
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,320
Speaker 13: to have any maneuver room when it comes to dealing

867
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 13: with issues that are dear to israel Is hard.

868
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:14,319
Speaker 3: There you go, well, sir, thank you very much for

869
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 3: joining us. We always appreciate your voice and hope to

870
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 3: see you again soon.

871
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 7: Thank you very thank you, professor, you're welcome.

872
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 3: Thank you guys so much for watching. We really appreciate it.

873
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 3: We're go a great show for you tomorrow.

874
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: We'll see them