WEBVTT - #066 Jason Flom and Michael Rubin with Meek Mill 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:03.720 I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:05.360 even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean. 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:08.960 I was brought up with cops are the good guys. 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:11.640 I didn't know what was going to happen, but I 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:17.320 do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything like everything. 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:22.360 This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:24.479 know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.240 with this. How is this possible? 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:30.680 I grew up trusting systems. I've grew up believing that 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:34.280 every human being should do the right thing. And that's why, 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:36.200 even though I knew I was dealing with corerough people, 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:38.360 I wasn't going to break anyone to get me out 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:41.080 of prison because I wouldn't live with the fact that 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:42.840 I break my way out of my wife's death. 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:47.479 I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.120 prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me. 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:51.839 Our system. 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:53.479 Since I've been out ten years, it has come a 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:55.480 little ways, but it's still broken. 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:59.480 I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me. 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:18.640 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction with 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:22.319 Jason flamm that's me and today we have an extraordinary 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:27.000 show and you're about to find out why. Today's guest 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:31.720 is the one and only Meek Milly and Michael Rubin 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:34.560 is with him and Meek, you need no introduction, but 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:35.520 welcome to the show. 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:36.720 Yeah, thanks for having me. 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:36.880 Man. 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:38.640 I appreciate you for bringing me on the show. 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:40.560 I appreciate all the work you're doing and we're going 0:01:40.600 --> 0:01:42.600 to get into that right away. But with him is 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:47.119 Michael Rubin, who is the owner of this Philadelphia seventy 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:51.840 six ers and has an amazing background as an entrepreneur 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:56.360 and businessman, but who has become a tremendous advocate for 0:01:56.400 --> 0:02:00.760 criminal justice reform and is about to really take things up. 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:02.800 So Michael, I'm thrilled to have you in the movement 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:03.920 and I'm glad you're here on the show. 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:06.160 Hey, thanks for everything you're doing. I'm glad to be here. 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:08.320 So welcome. Oh we got to train in the background night. 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:11.760 That's what's were in Philadelphia. It's all good. People got 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:15.720 to ride the trains. So, Meek, one of the reasons 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:17.680 I wanted to have you on the show is because 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:23.480 your original case was in fact a wrongful conviction, and 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:26.720 that's something a lot of people don't understand. And there's 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:31.280 a lot more they don't understand about the circumstances in 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:38.320 which you were arrested and how this nightmare saga, which 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:41.120 is now in its second decade in the criminal justice 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:46.000 system has unfolded. And it's important to tell this story 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:52.600 because it shines a light on so many aspects of 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:55.760 what's wrong with the criminal justice system. And we're here 0:02:55.760 --> 0:03:01.640 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, not Philadelphia, Mississippi. Even still, the system 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:04.040 here has been so backwards for so long, and you 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:06.520 were born right into the thick of it. Yeah, I mean, 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:10.080 let's talk about that, because nineteen eighty seven, so you know, 0:03:10.160 --> 0:03:14.680 the the number of people incarcerated the United States stayed 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:18.560 relatively constant from nineteen hundred till about nineteen seventy, and 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:22.520 then it went crazy. It doubled and tripled and quadrupled. 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:27.920 And Philadelphia was a hot spot. And you were born 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:32.440 into a situation in which black men were being incarcerated 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:36.480 at rates that were unprecedented actually in the history of 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:40.840 the world. And your situation actually was the os was 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:42.760 totally stacked against you. But can you talk about that 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:45.200 about how you grew up and how this, you know, 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:47.880 was almost almost a fad of complete uh. 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:52.160 You know, I come from Philadelphia, actually North Philadelphia, which 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:55.840 now is called the Temple Area, and you know, we 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:59.360 grew up in an environments where like dragonfest environments where 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:02.320 a lot of violence, a lot of drugs, a lot 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:04.840 of things taking place. So it's like you could be 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:07.240 standing in the wrong place and lose your life, or 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:10.119 you could be standing in the wrong place and get 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:12.320 charged with a crime you didn't do. That was just 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:15.200 like normal. Actually, I've been hanging with my friend p 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:19.440 Mind Mike. I've been hanging with p Mind probably fifteen years, 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:21.440 and I remember back he went to jail when he 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:24.240 was probably about fifteen years old. He probably thirty now. 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:27.200 He just turned thirty one a few days ago, and 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:29.960 I've been hanging with him since he was probably fourteen 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:32.440 years old. He said, he's like, yeah, the first time 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:35.159 I went to prison, he said, a white guy just 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:36.840 pulled up in the back of a car and just 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:39.960 pointed at me out the car and said, I robbed 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:41.960 him for seven dollars, but he had three hundred and 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:45.280 eighty dollars in his pocket and he went to jail 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:47.120 for that. He ended up doing I think like two 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:51.599 years and that in the juvenile facility. But that wasn't 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:53.320 the worst part. The worst part was he's got a 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:57.240 felony on this record for arm robbery. And you know, 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:00.880 if you know him, he not like a it's not robbery. 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:04.080 He's not robbery. And his system. He made mistakes in 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:06.920 his life. But me being around him, I never knew that, 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:09.440 but I witnessed that so many times. I wouldn'ts standing 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:12.000 on a corner and the cop pull up with a 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:16.039 Mexican guy in the back, and I don't know. Sometimes 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:19.720 we say and then our world in a sarcastic way 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:23.160 of being funny, we always be like white people look 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:25.200 the same to us. Some of my white friends were 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:27.880 like all black people were saying to us. But sometimes 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:30.640 that is the case with people, and they just pull 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.400 up and they point people out, and you stand there 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:35.000 when the cops pull up, and it just be like, 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:37.560 I hope this guy don't point me on. And that's 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:40.919 just one of the scenarios out of a million scenarios. 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:46.760 Being caught in the middle of poverty, where drug infested 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:49.000 the neighborhood, where people are getting robbed left and right, 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:53.440 where you know, cops left blacking people who have left 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:56.320 and rights just to get stripes on that record, you 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:57.760 know what I'm saying. And we grew up in that 0:05:57.920 --> 0:05:59.800 and you know, at eighteen years old, I was caught 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:03.200 up in that system. And even though I've been on 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:07.000 the path since ever since of doing spectacular in my 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:10.400 life from where I come from, that same system is 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:13.200 still haunting me and hanking me down. Even at the 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:15.760 age of thirty one and having a record deal and 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:19.960 being able to handle business and work, it still haunted 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:22.960 me to pull me back to the same system where 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:25.240 I just left eleven years ago. 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:27.679 And you just brought up two things that I wanted 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:30.839 to highlight. I mean, one is, you were, in a 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:32.880 very real way victim of that violence because your father 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:34.760 was murdered when you were a child, right, so you 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:36.599 had to grow up in that environment. And then on 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:37.320 top of that. 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:39.960 Everybody was murdered. It was everybody was. 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:43.000 Murdered, Yeah, it was. I mean the violence in that 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:46.360 time was crazy, and some of it was inflicted by 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:48.440 the police, including the violence that they inflicted on you 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:50.640 when they arrested you. But on top of that, you 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:53.360 brought up a very important point, which is that we 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:57.560 know from decades of research now that cross racial identifications 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:02.159 are extremely unreliable. Dentifications in general are unreliable because when 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:05.200 people have witness a crime, they're adrenaline, especially violent crime, 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:07.919 their adrenaline goes crazy and their perception gets screwy and 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:12.280 the brain doesn't function properly, so it almost becomes like guessing. 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:14.680 But it gets even worse. And there's a movement now 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:18.640 to try to in various places, to try to put 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:22.200 in a system where a jury has to be instructed 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:27.320 in a case in which across racial identification is an 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:31.640 important factor that these things are as unreliable as they 0:07:31.680 --> 0:07:34.360 are because they need to know, but in most cases 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:36.280 they don't know. They just think an identification is the 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:37.640 most powerful thing. Going to court room too, a guy 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:39.680 points at you and goes, that's him. You know, it's 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:41.000 hard for a jury to see past that. 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:44.280 Yeah, it's like it's a neighborhood. We all wearing white 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:47.280 Teas of the summer of two thousand and three, everybody 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:50.080 white T shirts is the popular thing to wear with 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:54.640 denim shirts. And you've got a guy you might be Asian. 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:57.080 He pulled up on a corner. We all seven of 0:07:57.160 --> 0:07:59.400 us got braids, and four of us got a little cousin, 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:01.080 But we all look the same, the ones that got 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:04.400 braized to him, that's just you allowed to repick, to 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:06.720 get caught up in the system. Like whoever you point at, 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:09.400 that's you. And you better hope you don't have no 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:11.560 felonies on your record already because you might go to 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:12.600 jail for a long time. 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:16.000 And sociologically speaking, and this goes back again to the 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:18.760 seventies and eighties. Right at the same time that they 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:23.000 were rolling back welfare and other programs for the urban poor, 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:27.680 they were ramping up the policing and they were Now 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:30.880 you created the perfect storm because what was happening was 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:34.440 you had these systems coming for tracking arrest. You had 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:36.920 so many more cops. In fact, I think in Philadelphia 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:39.880 sixty nine percent more police decade over decade than they 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:42.600 were before, and they had to make arrests. So whereas 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:45.040 before they were largely ignoring what was going on in 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:49.520 the community, now there were heightened penalties for not just 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:52.120 for violent crimes, but also for all kinds of different 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:55.920 drug crimes, for vagrancy, for trespassing, for anything, and they 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:58.720 were in a position where they were arresting people left 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:01.800 and right and creating this permanent underclass, which is what 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:04.760 you were referring to me. And Michael. You know, obviously 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:07.640 you grew up here too, right, but your situation must 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:08.040 have been. 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:10.559 Very in a very different world. I grew up maybe 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:13.000 twenty minutes for me. But Mick used to always say 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:14.920 to me. We used to have this argument for years. 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:17.360 He'd say to me, Michael, there's two Americans. And I'd 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:19.280 be like, like, dude, shut up. There's like there's there's 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:22.000 one America. Like stop, you know, like you're doing great, 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:23.800 Like you know, I didn't understand, Like what are you 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:25.240 telling me about these two worlds? We live in one 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:27.679 great country and and you know, we'd argue about all 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:30.200 the time. And I remember the day that that meet 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:34.240 got sentenced November six, twenty seventeen, he called me from 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:36.839 from the Philadelphia job before they transferred to a different jeneral. 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:38.480 They said, he said, you see, I told you this 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:39.280 is what happens to. 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:41.679 The black people on that oage, right, And I just 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:42.000 like that. 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:44.160 You know, I said you were right, I was wrong, 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:46.440 and there is two worlds. And you know, for me, 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:51.360 November six, twenty seventeen, was really a life change in 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:54.800 moment because I would never have been able to understand 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:57.520 or really believe, and I don't think anybody would be 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:01.640 able to believe how crazy circumstance he was living in, 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:04.920 because it didn't seem possible until you sat in the courtroom. 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:08.560 And even people that have come to later court hearings 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:11.800 of Judge Brinkley have said, I've heard everything about this, 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:13.640 but I didn't believe it until I actually saw it, 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:16.400 and it's so crazy. So for sure, I grew up 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:19.160 in a completely different environment. But Miek always told me 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:21.319 from the day I metum. I remember we were at 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:25.360 a NBA All Star game and you know, within you know, 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:27.720 a few minutes, you know, Meek realized I was involved 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:31.080 with the Philadelphia seventy six ers, and you know, he 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:33.440 was telling me a little bit about his background. He 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:35.679 told me he was charged for pointing a gun at 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:38.080 multiple cops. And he said to me, like, you know, 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:41.120 I didn't do that, Like if you know, if I pointed, 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:43.480 you know, a gun at multiple cops, I'd be dead. 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:46.840 Like I heard them, but I didn't really comprehend it. 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:49.600 And then like if I've told that story to five 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:54.120 hundred people in the last seven months. Every person from 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:58.520 law enforcement to politics, to anyone who understands anything, they 0:10:58.559 --> 0:10:59.400 all say the same thing. 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:00.480 He's right, and he'd be dead. 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:02.600 No one would point a you know, pull a gun 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:05.160 on multiple cops and not get shot. And meet can't 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:07.559 obviously talk about the case because the case is still 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:12.480 unfortunately going on, which is crazy in itself, uncommon sense, right, 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:14.640 But I mean, you're talking about a guy who is 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:17.680 wrongfully convicted when he was eighteen years old of a 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:20.240 crime that he didn't commit. It's been sent back to 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:23.960 jail multiple times, never committed a new crime, and he's 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:26.400 the perfect example of someone who's been stuck in a 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:30.440 completely broken criminal justice system for criming and commit and 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:33.640 it's now thirteen years later and it's still going on, 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:36.040 and that shows how broken the criminal justice system is. 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:40.160 It's incredible. You know, we have two point two million 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:43.560 people in prison in America and including jail, another four. 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:45.760 And a half million people on probation in parole. 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:47.760 For yeah, I mean, the latest figure I heard was 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:51.480 four point eight, right, And once we accept those figures, 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:53.320 you also have to accept the fact that we now 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:57.080 have between jail, prison, probation, and parole. We have more 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:01.840 black people with mostly men under a criminal justice supervision 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:05.000 in America then all the slaves at the height of 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:08.400 slavery in America in the eighteen fifties or sixties, whatever 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:12.160 that was. That that should really mess people's heads up, 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:16.199 like what are we doing? We actually are It's just well, 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:18.200 it's like Michelle Alexander says, is the new Jim Crow. 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:21.600 But what's even you know, let's bring it to current. 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:27.599 What you can't what words can't explain, is Miek is 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.640 still on probation for something that we've already said he 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:33.400 didn't do, and it's been going on for thirteen years 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:37.360 from the original wrongful conviction. But he can't like you 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:39.439 can't live that way, Like I say, I joke with him, 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:42.400 I feel like I'm on probation because I'm worried about. 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:43.240 Just something going wrong with him. 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:45.920 If he decides to leave a state a day early 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:48.240 because something changed with the schedule, or he gets you know, 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:49.640 someone says hey, I'm going to pay you to go 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:50.960 do this contract. I want to go and I have 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:53.280 the proper days of permission, the judge will try to 0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:56.400 violate him. I mean, it's the system is chasing him 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:58.920 and trying to violate, and that's not what probation is 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:02.000 supposed to be about, reabilitating somebody, not trying to catch 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:04.000 them and send that back to prison. And something that 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:06.480 someone told me recently, and you know, I've now become 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:09.120 too familiar with this, but seventy percent of people to 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:10.800 go back to jail once they've been in jail in 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:14.680 prison are going back for technical probation violations. Like to me, 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:17.640 virtually none of those people should be going You know, 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:20.120 you had a technical probation violation, right, you didn't commit 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:22.840 a crime, you were late for your probation officer. You 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:24.880 you know, didn't pay a certain amount of money. You 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:28.360 know you had you know something, you know, you traveled 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:29.880 out of the state. You know he went to his 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:32.520 son in New Jersey because he lives in Pennsylvania. And 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:34.439 you can be violated and sent back to jail. This 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:35.080 is lunacy. 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:37.800 This is absolute lunacy. And I want, I'm really glad 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:39.280 you brought that up, Michael, because I don't want to 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:42.640 get your take on this week because in a lot 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:46.480 of the reforms that are underway right now, there's this 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:53.880 hidden caveat or this hidden nightmare i'll call it of 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:59.640 enhanced probation and other ways of the government keeping people 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:03.880 under control. So to me, a true crime reform bill 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:07.280 should eliminate those problems. And you obviously can speak firsthand 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:09.719 about just how restrictive that is, and Michael has said 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:12.400 very eloquently, when you have seventy percent of people going 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:16.120 back to jail or prison because they have some technical violation, 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:20.320 that's insane, right, So, but can you talk about that, 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:24.400 because I'm very concerned that they're sneaking these devils into 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:27.560 the details in these new crime bills that are going 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:30.800 to allow them to maintain this control. There's no other 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:33.440 way to look at it over millions of people's lives, 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:34.960 and there's a profit center in that for a lot 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:35.560 of people too. 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:39.480 Yeah, it's more than insane to me. I take it 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:41.640 as deep as like you said, I could go see 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:44.640 my son in New Jersey and actually be locked in 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:46.920 a cage and be locked and changed. Shechecky from like 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:48.400 angle to feet. 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:51.240 For the crime of going from Pennsylvania to New Jersey 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:54.360 to see your son, that's what I'm saying. I'm being facetious. Yeah, 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:55.480 for the crime in quotes. 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:58.000 Yeah, I'll tell you this right now. 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:02.080 Judge Brinkley is to do that too. She's trying to 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:04.800 right now today, I promise you, she's sitting in our 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:07.480 house obsessed about how she can figure out how to 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:10.800 put them back in jail for nothing. That's a fact. 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:12.640 He can't talk about that, but I can't. I'm telling 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:14.000 you straight up that's what's going on. 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:19.280 It's it's really bizarre. I mean, as a country, why 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:22.920 would we want I mean, these are our tax dollars, right, 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:25.920 and it hurts the average taxpayer. Even if you're somebody 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:29.200 who's not particularly concerned about criminal justice reform, or you 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:30.840 think a lot of people or you maybe you think 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:33.800 you're tough on crime or whatever, it might be. The 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:38.400 money that's being spent to lock people like you meek 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:42.520 up right and to keep you under supervision, and this 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:48.760 bloated and draconian system is pure insanity. I mean that 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:50.880 money could be spent. I mean, I know that at 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:53.520 one time eighty billion eighty billionaire at one time. I 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:55.080 don't even know if it's still true. But a few 0:15:55.160 --> 0:15:57.880 years ago I checked and California, which a lot of 0:15:57.880 --> 0:15:59.760 people think I was in a progressive state, was spending 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:02.520 more money locking people up than they were educating people. 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:06.680 And I'm like, uh, I think that's college but still, 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:10.760 and we have fact check that, but it's it's that 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:14.400 that is absolutely staggering. And the crazy thing is these 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:16.480 are Americans. There are fellow people, you know, I say 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:18.000 the politicians when I talk to him, I'm like, you know, 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:21.640 if another country treated our people the way we treat 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:24.000 our people, we'd invade this stuff. 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:25.720 We wouldn't even do to our pets, you know what 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:27.760 I'm saying, Like you wouldn't lock your pet in the 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:32.080 metal cell. For sometimes we get locked in and I 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:35.120 say we because I've been through this experience so many times, 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:37.680 and like sometimes we get locked in a room for 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:41.600 twenty three hours a day for a month or two weeks, 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.120 some people actually even years. You know what I'm saying. 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:48.360 It's like they say when you come home, it's a 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:51.280 violation to be around felons. Like how is it a 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:53.480 violation to be around felons when you just had me 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:57.080 locked up amongst thousands of felons? Like what rule is this? 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.160 I'm glad you brought that up too, because that's another 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:01.600 thing that creates this vicious story. 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:03.720 Ex's by the way you think about it. In the 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:06.840 environment you grew up, what percentage of people that live 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:08.440 on your block have had a felony? 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:09.879 Ninety five percent? 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:11.840 Right, So what you're saying is essential family. 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:15.320 Anyone can put you back in prison because there's a 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:17.160 rule that says you can't be around felons. But everyone 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:18.560 you grew up with has a felony. 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:20.840 If somebody really made that an issue, I would probably 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:22.480 go to jail any day. Because if I go to 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:25.160 the studio with a rapper and we make a song, 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:26.760 I don't know his record, but. 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:29.720 Right, you don't know, how would you go? You have 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:32.280 to have like a database that we do at all times. 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:34.520 Most people can't afford that, I mean, and you're not 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:36.679 going to do it. The fact is, and yet you know, 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:40.080 it's like I'm just quoting a statistic here. In nineteen 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:43.399 ninety one in four black children born in nineteen ninety 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:45.480 had an imprisoned father by the time he or she 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:46.240 turned fourteen. 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:47.040 Yeah, right, And the. 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:49.560 Numbers just get worse and worse. I mean, thirty percent 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:53.080 of black men without college educations today will have been 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:54.879 to prison by their men thirties and spent up to 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:59.240 a year in prison thirty percent. Yeah, I mean that's 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:01.600 without college ass and the numbers go to sixty percent 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:05.000 when you look at black mails without high school education. Yeah, 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:07.200 sixty percent of black males out a high school education 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:10.560 was bet a year in prison or jail before their 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:13.280 thirtieth birthday. What are we doing? And the fact is 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:16.920 it's actually impossible to succeed, which is why I'm always 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:19.080 amazed when somebody does come from the background that you 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:23.320 came from and make it, because with that cycle, how 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:25.959 do you do it? They've created a minefield that you 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:29.679 can't walk through. Right, once you get arrested, You're going 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:33.159 to get re arrested no matter what you do, pretty much. 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:36.440 Right, Yeah, one hundred percent. And like me and Mike, 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:38.960 we just spend an hour Mike just teaching me about 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:42.680 financial stuff and like texts and things that like when 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:46.680 we're growing up, from like age thirteen to twenty years old, 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:51.399 we probably invest ninety five percent of our think and 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:54.080 time in how to survive in these type of conditions 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:57.040 because it's like almost impossible to survive. So like you 0:18:57.080 --> 0:19:00.000 got to put like your owe into how to even 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:02.760 be in my mind frame now, I still like even though 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:04.960 I travel the world, it's still installed in my mind. 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:08.200 It's still like something that is like I might come 0:19:08.240 --> 0:19:10.840 into a certain situation in a certain area and I 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:13.640 go into survival move and I have to double back, 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:16.120 and like this is not even that type of environment 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:17.879 where I don't live this type of life anymore, But 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:20.680 it's just always installed inside my head, you know what 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:23.600 I'm saying, And coming from environments like that, Like you said, 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:28.080 sixty percent where I come from, it feels like it's ninety. 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:33.719 Like is do that count death? Death is going They 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:37.520 probably go up to probably ninety five percent. Uh people 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:41.080 young black men being murdered or going to prison probably 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:42.840 sixty plus another thirty five percent. 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:55.280 Mick, I've heard you talk about this. 0:19:55.480 --> 0:19:58.359 You know, how many people do you know that you 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:00.199