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Speaker 1: I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't

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Speaker 1: even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: I was brought up with cops are the good guys.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I

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Speaker 2: do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything like everything.

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Speaker 3: This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I

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Speaker 3: know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do

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Speaker 3: with this. How is this possible?

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Speaker 4: I grew up trusting systems. I've grew up believing that

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Speaker 4: every human being should do the right thing. And that's why,

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Speaker 4: even though I knew I was dealing with corerough people,

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Speaker 4: I wasn't going to break anyone to get me out

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Speaker 4: of prison because I wouldn't live with the fact that

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Speaker 4: I break my way out of my wife's death.

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Speaker 2: I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I

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Speaker 2: prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.

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Speaker 1: Our system.

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Speaker 2: Since I've been out ten years, it has come a

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Speaker 2: little ways, but it's still broken.

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Speaker 4: I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me.

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Speaker 5: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction with

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Speaker 5: Jason flamm that's me and today we have an extraordinary

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Speaker 5: show and you're about to find out why. Today's guest

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Speaker 5: is the one and only Meek Milly and Michael Rubin

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Speaker 5: is with him and Meek, you need no introduction, but

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Speaker 5: welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 5: Man.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate you for bringing me on the show.

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Speaker 5: I appreciate all the work you're doing and we're going

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Speaker 5: to get into that right away. But with him is

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Speaker 5: Michael Rubin, who is the owner of this Philadelphia seventy

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Speaker 5: six ers and has an amazing background as an entrepreneur

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Speaker 5: and businessman, but who has become a tremendous advocate for

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Speaker 5: criminal justice reform and is about to really take things up.

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Speaker 5: So Michael, I'm thrilled to have you in the movement

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Speaker 5: and I'm glad you're here on the show.

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Speaker 1: Hey, thanks for everything you're doing. I'm glad to be here.

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Speaker 5: So welcome. Oh we got to train in the background night.

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Speaker 5: That's what's were in Philadelphia. It's all good. People got

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Speaker 5: to ride the trains. So, Meek, one of the reasons

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Speaker 5: I wanted to have you on the show is because

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Speaker 5: your original case was in fact a wrongful conviction, and

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Speaker 5: that's something a lot of people don't understand. And there's

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Speaker 5: a lot more they don't understand about the circumstances in

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Speaker 5: which you were arrested and how this nightmare saga, which

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Speaker 5: is now in its second decade in the criminal justice

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Speaker 5: system has unfolded. And it's important to tell this story

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Speaker 5: because it shines a light on so many aspects of

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Speaker 5: what's wrong with the criminal justice system. And we're here

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Speaker 5: in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, not Philadelphia, Mississippi. Even still, the system

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Speaker 5: here has been so backwards for so long, and you

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Speaker 5: were born right into the thick of it. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 5: let's talk about that, because nineteen eighty seven, so you know,

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Speaker 5: the the number of people incarcerated the United States stayed

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Speaker 5: relatively constant from nineteen hundred till about nineteen seventy, and

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Speaker 5: then it went crazy. It doubled and tripled and quadrupled.

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Speaker 5: And Philadelphia was a hot spot. And you were born

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Speaker 5: into a situation in which black men were being incarcerated

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Speaker 5: at rates that were unprecedented actually in the history of

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Speaker 5: the world. And your situation actually was the os was

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Speaker 5: totally stacked against you. But can you talk about that

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Speaker 5: about how you grew up and how this, you know,

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Speaker 5: was almost almost a fad of complete uh.

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Speaker 2: You know, I come from Philadelphia, actually North Philadelphia, which

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Speaker 2: now is called the Temple Area, and you know, we

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Speaker 2: grew up in an environments where like dragonfest environments where

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Speaker 2: a lot of violence, a lot of drugs, a lot

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Speaker 2: of things taking place. So it's like you could be

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Speaker 2: standing in the wrong place and lose your life, or

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Speaker 2: you could be standing in the wrong place and get

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Speaker 2: charged with a crime you didn't do. That was just

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Speaker 2: like normal. Actually, I've been hanging with my friend p

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Speaker 2: Mind Mike. I've been hanging with p Mind probably fifteen years,

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Speaker 2: and I remember back he went to jail when he

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Speaker 2: was probably about fifteen years old. He probably thirty now.

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Speaker 2: He just turned thirty one a few days ago, and

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Speaker 2: I've been hanging with him since he was probably fourteen

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Speaker 2: years old. He said, he's like, yeah, the first time

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Speaker 2: I went to prison, he said, a white guy just

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Speaker 2: pulled up in the back of a car and just

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Speaker 2: pointed at me out the car and said, I robbed

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Speaker 2: him for seven dollars, but he had three hundred and

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Speaker 2: eighty dollars in his pocket and he went to jail

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Speaker 2: for that. He ended up doing I think like two

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Speaker 2: years and that in the juvenile facility. But that wasn't

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Speaker 2: the worst part. The worst part was he's got a

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Speaker 2: felony on this record for arm robbery. And you know,

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Speaker 2: if you know him, he not like a it's not robbery.

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Speaker 2: He's not robbery. And his system. He made mistakes in

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Speaker 2: his life. But me being around him, I never knew that,

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Speaker 2: but I witnessed that so many times. I wouldn'ts standing

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Speaker 2: on a corner and the cop pull up with a

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Speaker 2: Mexican guy in the back, and I don't know. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: we say and then our world in a sarcastic way

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Speaker 2: of being funny, we always be like white people look

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Speaker 2: the same to us. Some of my white friends were

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Speaker 2: like all black people were saying to us. But sometimes

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Speaker 2: that is the case with people, and they just pull

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Speaker 2: up and they point people out, and you stand there

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Speaker 2: when the cops pull up, and it just be like,

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Speaker 2: I hope this guy don't point me on. And that's

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Speaker 2: just one of the scenarios out of a million scenarios.

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Speaker 2: Being caught in the middle of poverty, where drug infested

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Speaker 2: the neighborhood, where people are getting robbed left and right,

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Speaker 2: where you know, cops left blacking people who have left

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Speaker 2: and rights just to get stripes on that record, you

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Speaker 2: know what I'm saying. And we grew up in that

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Speaker 2: and you know, at eighteen years old, I was caught

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Speaker 2: up in that system. And even though I've been on

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Speaker 2: the path since ever since of doing spectacular in my

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Speaker 2: life from where I come from, that same system is

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Speaker 2: still haunting me and hanking me down. Even at the

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Speaker 2: age of thirty one and having a record deal and

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Speaker 2: being able to handle business and work, it still haunted

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Speaker 2: me to pull me back to the same system where

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Speaker 2: I just left eleven years ago.

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Speaker 5: And you just brought up two things that I wanted

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Speaker 5: to highlight. I mean, one is, you were, in a

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Speaker 5: very real way victim of that violence because your father

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Speaker 5: was murdered when you were a child, right, so you

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Speaker 5: had to grow up in that environment. And then on

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Speaker 5: top of that.

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Speaker 2: Everybody was murdered. It was everybody was.

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Speaker 5: Murdered, Yeah, it was. I mean the violence in that

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Speaker 5: time was crazy, and some of it was inflicted by

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Speaker 5: the police, including the violence that they inflicted on you

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Speaker 5: when they arrested you. But on top of that, you

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Speaker 5: brought up a very important point, which is that we

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Speaker 5: know from decades of research now that cross racial identifications

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Speaker 5: are extremely unreliable. Dentifications in general are unreliable because when

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Speaker 5: people have witness a crime, they're adrenaline, especially violent crime,

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Speaker 5: their adrenaline goes crazy and their perception gets screwy and

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Speaker 5: the brain doesn't function properly, so it almost becomes like guessing.

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Speaker 5: But it gets even worse. And there's a movement now

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Speaker 5: to try to in various places, to try to put

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Speaker 5: in a system where a jury has to be instructed

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Speaker 5: in a case in which across racial identification is an

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Speaker 5: important factor that these things are as unreliable as they

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Speaker 5: are because they need to know, but in most cases

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Speaker 5: they don't know. They just think an identification is the

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Speaker 5: most powerful thing. Going to court room too, a guy

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Speaker 5: points at you and goes, that's him. You know, it's

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Speaker 5: hard for a jury to see past that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like it's a neighborhood. We all wearing white

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Speaker 2: Teas of the summer of two thousand and three, everybody

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Speaker 2: white T shirts is the popular thing to wear with

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Speaker 2: denim shirts. And you've got a guy you might be Asian.

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Speaker 2: He pulled up on a corner. We all seven of

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Speaker 2: us got braids, and four of us got a little cousin,

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Speaker 2: But we all look the same, the ones that got

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Speaker 2: braized to him, that's just you allowed to repick, to

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Speaker 2: get caught up in the system. Like whoever you point at,

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Speaker 2: that's you. And you better hope you don't have no

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Speaker 2: felonies on your record already because you might go to

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Speaker 2: jail for a long time.

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Speaker 5: And sociologically speaking, and this goes back again to the

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Speaker 5: seventies and eighties. Right at the same time that they

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Speaker 5: were rolling back welfare and other programs for the urban poor,

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Speaker 5: they were ramping up the policing and they were Now

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Speaker 5: you created the perfect storm because what was happening was

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Speaker 5: you had these systems coming for tracking arrest. You had

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Speaker 5: so many more cops. In fact, I think in Philadelphia

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Speaker 5: sixty nine percent more police decade over decade than they

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Speaker 5: were before, and they had to make arrests. So whereas

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Speaker 5: before they were largely ignoring what was going on in

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Speaker 5: the community, now there were heightened penalties for not just

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Speaker 5: for violent crimes, but also for all kinds of different

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Speaker 5: drug crimes, for vagrancy, for trespassing, for anything, and they

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Speaker 5: were in a position where they were arresting people left

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Speaker 5: and right and creating this permanent underclass, which is what

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Speaker 5: you were referring to me. And Michael. You know, obviously

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Speaker 5: you grew up here too, right, but your situation must

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Speaker 5: have been.

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Speaker 6: Very in a very different world. I grew up maybe

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Speaker 6: twenty minutes for me. But Mick used to always say

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Speaker 6: to me. We used to have this argument for years.

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Speaker 6: He'd say to me, Michael, there's two Americans. And I'd

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Speaker 6: be like, like, dude, shut up. There's like there's there's

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Speaker 6: one America. Like stop, you know, like you're doing great,

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Speaker 6: Like you know, I didn't understand, Like what are you

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Speaker 6: telling me about these two worlds? We live in one

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Speaker 6: great country and and you know, we'd argue about all

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Speaker 6: the time. And I remember the day that that meet

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Speaker 6: got sentenced November six, twenty seventeen, he called me from

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Speaker 6: from the Philadelphia job before they transferred to a different jeneral.

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Speaker 6: They said, he said, you see, I told you this

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Speaker 6: is what happens to.

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Speaker 1: The black people on that oage, right, And I just

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Speaker 1: like that.

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Speaker 6: You know, I said you were right, I was wrong,

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Speaker 6: and there is two worlds. And you know, for me,

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Speaker 6: November six, twenty seventeen, was really a life change in

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Speaker 6: moment because I would never have been able to understand

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Speaker 6: or really believe, and I don't think anybody would be

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Speaker 6: able to believe how crazy circumstance he was living in,

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Speaker 6: because it didn't seem possible until you sat in the courtroom.

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Speaker 6: And even people that have come to later court hearings

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Speaker 6: of Judge Brinkley have said, I've heard everything about this,

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Speaker 6: but I didn't believe it until I actually saw it,

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Speaker 6: and it's so crazy. So for sure, I grew up

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Speaker 6: in a completely different environment. But Miek always told me

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Speaker 6: from the day I metum. I remember we were at

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Speaker 6: a NBA All Star game and you know, within you know,

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Speaker 6: a few minutes, you know, Meek realized I was involved

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Speaker 6: with the Philadelphia seventy six ers, and you know, he

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Speaker 6: was telling me a little bit about his background. He

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Speaker 6: told me he was charged for pointing a gun at

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Speaker 6: multiple cops. And he said to me, like, you know,

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Speaker 6: I didn't do that, Like if you know, if I pointed,

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Speaker 6: you know, a gun at multiple cops, I'd be dead.

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Speaker 6: Like I heard them, but I didn't really comprehend it.

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Speaker 6: And then like if I've told that story to five

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Speaker 6: hundred people in the last seven months. Every person from

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Speaker 6: law enforcement to politics, to anyone who understands anything, they

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Speaker 6: all say the same thing.

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Speaker 1: He's right, and he'd be dead.

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Speaker 6: No one would point a you know, pull a gun

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Speaker 6: on multiple cops and not get shot. And meet can't

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Speaker 6: obviously talk about the case because the case is still

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Speaker 6: unfortunately going on, which is crazy in itself, uncommon sense, right,

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Speaker 6: But I mean, you're talking about a guy who is

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Speaker 6: wrongfully convicted when he was eighteen years old of a

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Speaker 6: crime that he didn't commit. It's been sent back to

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Speaker 6: jail multiple times, never committed a new crime, and he's

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Speaker 6: the perfect example of someone who's been stuck in a

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Speaker 6: completely broken criminal justice system for criming and commit and

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Speaker 6: it's now thirteen years later and it's still going on,

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Speaker 6: and that shows how broken the criminal justice system is.

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Speaker 5: It's incredible. You know, we have two point two million

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Speaker 5: people in prison in America and including jail, another four.

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Speaker 1: And a half million people on probation in parole.

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Speaker 5: For yeah, I mean, the latest figure I heard was

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Speaker 5: four point eight, right, And once we accept those figures,

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Speaker 5: you also have to accept the fact that we now

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Speaker 5: have between jail, prison, probation, and parole. We have more

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Speaker 5: black people with mostly men under a criminal justice supervision

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Speaker 5: in America then all the slaves at the height of

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Speaker 5: slavery in America in the eighteen fifties or sixties, whatever

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Speaker 5: that was. That that should really mess people's heads up,

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Speaker 5: like what are we doing? We actually are It's just well,

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Speaker 5: it's like Michelle Alexander says, is the new Jim Crow.

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Speaker 6: But what's even you know, let's bring it to current.

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Speaker 6: What you can't what words can't explain, is Miek is

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Speaker 6: still on probation for something that we've already said he

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Speaker 6: didn't do, and it's been going on for thirteen years

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Speaker 6: from the original wrongful conviction. But he can't like you

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Speaker 6: can't live that way, Like I say, I joke with him,

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Speaker 6: I feel like I'm on probation because I'm worried about.

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Speaker 1: Just something going wrong with him.

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Speaker 6: If he decides to leave a state a day early

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Speaker 6: because something changed with the schedule, or he gets you know,

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Speaker 6: someone says hey, I'm going to pay you to go

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Speaker 6: do this contract. I want to go and I have

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Speaker 6: the proper days of permission, the judge will try to

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Speaker 6: violate him. I mean, it's the system is chasing him

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Speaker 6: and trying to violate, and that's not what probation is

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Speaker 6: supposed to be about, reabilitating somebody, not trying to catch

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Speaker 6: them and send that back to prison. And something that

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Speaker 6: someone told me recently, and you know, I've now become

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Speaker 6: too familiar with this, but seventy percent of people to

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Speaker 6: go back to jail once they've been in jail in

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Speaker 6: prison are going back for technical probation violations. Like to me,

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Speaker 6: virtually none of those people should be going You know,

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Speaker 6: you had a technical probation violation, right, you didn't commit

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Speaker 6: a crime, you were late for your probation officer. You

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Speaker 6: you know, didn't pay a certain amount of money. You

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Speaker 6: know you had you know something, you know, you traveled

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Speaker 6: out of the state. You know he went to his

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Speaker 6: son in New Jersey because he lives in Pennsylvania. And

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Speaker 6: you can be violated and sent back to jail. This

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Speaker 6: is lunacy.

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Speaker 5: This is absolute lunacy. And I want, I'm really glad

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Speaker 5: you brought that up, Michael, because I don't want to

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Speaker 5: get your take on this week because in a lot

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Speaker 5: of the reforms that are underway right now, there's this

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Speaker 5: hidden caveat or this hidden nightmare i'll call it of

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Speaker 5: enhanced probation and other ways of the government keeping people

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Speaker 5: under control. So to me, a true crime reform bill

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Speaker 5: should eliminate those problems. And you obviously can speak firsthand

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Speaker 5: about just how restrictive that is, and Michael has said

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Speaker 5: very eloquently, when you have seventy percent of people going

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Speaker 5: back to jail or prison because they have some technical violation,

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Speaker 5: that's insane, right, So, but can you talk about that,

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Speaker 5: because I'm very concerned that they're sneaking these devils into

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Speaker 5: the details in these new crime bills that are going

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Speaker 5: to allow them to maintain this control. There's no other

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Speaker 5: way to look at it over millions of people's lives,

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Speaker 5: and there's a profit center in that for a lot

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Speaker 5: of people too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's more than insane to me. I take it

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Speaker 2: as deep as like you said, I could go see

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Speaker 2: my son in New Jersey and actually be locked in

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Speaker 2: a cage and be locked and changed. Shechecky from like

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Speaker 2: angle to feet.

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Speaker 5: For the crime of going from Pennsylvania to New Jersey

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Speaker 5: to see your son, that's what I'm saying. I'm being facetious. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: for the crime in quotes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll tell you this right now.

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Speaker 6: Judge Brinkley is to do that too. She's trying to

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Speaker 6: right now today, I promise you, she's sitting in our

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Speaker 6: house obsessed about how she can figure out how to

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Speaker 6: put them back in jail for nothing. That's a fact.

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Speaker 6: He can't talk about that, but I can't. I'm telling

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Speaker 6: you straight up that's what's going on.

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Speaker 5: It's it's really bizarre. I mean, as a country, why

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Speaker 5: would we want I mean, these are our tax dollars, right,

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Speaker 5: and it hurts the average taxpayer. Even if you're somebody

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Speaker 5: who's not particularly concerned about criminal justice reform, or you

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Speaker 5: think a lot of people or you maybe you think

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Speaker 5: you're tough on crime or whatever, it might be. The

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Speaker 5: money that's being spent to lock people like you meek

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Speaker 5: up right and to keep you under supervision, and this

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Speaker 5: bloated and draconian system is pure insanity. I mean that

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Speaker 5: money could be spent. I mean, I know that at

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Speaker 5: one time eighty billion eighty billionaire at one time. I

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Speaker 5: don't even know if it's still true. But a few

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Speaker 5: years ago I checked and California, which a lot of

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Speaker 5: people think I was in a progressive state, was spending

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Speaker 5: more money locking people up than they were educating people.

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Speaker 5: And I'm like, uh, I think that's college but still,

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Speaker 5: and we have fact check that, but it's it's that

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Speaker 5: that is absolutely staggering. And the crazy thing is these

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Speaker 5: are Americans. There are fellow people, you know, I say

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Speaker 5: the politicians when I talk to him, I'm like, you know,

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Speaker 5: if another country treated our people the way we treat

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Speaker 5: our people, we'd invade this stuff.

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Speaker 2: We wouldn't even do to our pets, you know what

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Speaker 2: I'm saying, Like you wouldn't lock your pet in the

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Speaker 2: metal cell. For sometimes we get locked in and I

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Speaker 2: say we because I've been through this experience so many times,

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Speaker 2: and like sometimes we get locked in a room for

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Speaker 2: twenty three hours a day for a month or two weeks,

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Speaker 2: some people actually even years. You know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: It's like they say when you come home, it's a

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Speaker 2: violation to be around felons. Like how is it a

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Speaker 2: violation to be around felons when you just had me

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Speaker 2: locked up amongst thousands of felons? Like what rule is this?

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Speaker 5: I'm glad you brought that up too, because that's another

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Speaker 5: thing that creates this vicious story.

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Speaker 6: Ex's by the way you think about it. In the

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Speaker 6: environment you grew up, what percentage of people that live

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Speaker 6: on your block have had a felony?

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Speaker 2: Ninety five percent?

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Speaker 1: Right, So what you're saying is essential family.

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Speaker 6: Anyone can put you back in prison because there's a

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Speaker 6: rule that says you can't be around felons. But everyone

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Speaker 6: you grew up with has a felony.

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Speaker 2: If somebody really made that an issue, I would probably

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Speaker 2: go to jail any day. Because if I go to

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Speaker 2: the studio with a rapper and we make a song,

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Speaker 2: I don't know his record, but.

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Speaker 5: Right, you don't know, how would you go? You have

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Speaker 5: to have like a database that we do at all times.

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Speaker 5: Most people can't afford that, I mean, and you're not

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Speaker 5: going to do it. The fact is, and yet you know,

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Speaker 5: it's like I'm just quoting a statistic here. In nineteen

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Speaker 5: ninety one in four black children born in nineteen ninety

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Speaker 5: had an imprisoned father by the time he or she

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Speaker 5: turned fourteen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, And the.

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Speaker 5: Numbers just get worse and worse. I mean, thirty percent

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Speaker 5: of black men without college educations today will have been

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Speaker 5: to prison by their men thirties and spent up to

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Speaker 5: a year in prison thirty percent. Yeah, I mean that's

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Speaker 5: without college ass and the numbers go to sixty percent

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Speaker 5: when you look at black mails without high school education. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: sixty percent of black males out a high school education

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Speaker 5: was bet a year in prison or jail before their

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Speaker 5: thirtieth birthday. What are we doing? And the fact is

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Speaker 5: it's actually impossible to succeed, which is why I'm always

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Speaker 5: amazed when somebody does come from the background that you

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Speaker 5: came from and make it, because with that cycle, how

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Speaker 5: do you do it? They've created a minefield that you

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Speaker 5: can't walk through. Right, once you get arrested, You're going

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Speaker 5: to get re arrested no matter what you do, pretty much.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, one hundred percent. And like me and Mike,

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Speaker 2: we just spend an hour Mike just teaching me about

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Speaker 2: financial stuff and like texts and things that like when

380
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Speaker 2: we're growing up, from like age thirteen to twenty years old,

381
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Speaker 2: we probably invest ninety five percent of our think and

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Speaker 2: time in how to survive in these type of conditions

383
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Speaker 2: because it's like almost impossible to survive. So like you

384
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Speaker 2: got to put like your owe into how to even

385
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Speaker 2: be in my mind frame now, I still like even though

386
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Speaker 2: I travel the world, it's still installed in my mind.

387
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Speaker 2: It's still like something that is like I might come

388
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Speaker 2: into a certain situation in a certain area and I

389
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Speaker 2: go into survival move and I have to double back,

390
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Speaker 2: and like this is not even that type of environment

391
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Speaker 2: where I don't live this type of life anymore, But

392
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Speaker 2: it's just always installed inside my head, you know what

393
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Speaker 2: I'm saying, And coming from environments like that, Like you said,

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Speaker 2: sixty percent where I come from, it feels like it's ninety.

395
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Speaker 2: Like is do that count death? Death is going They

396
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Speaker 2: probably go up to probably ninety five percent. Uh people

397
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Speaker 2: young black men being murdered or going to prison probably

398
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Speaker 2: sixty plus another thirty five percent.

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Speaker 1: Mick, I've heard you talk about this.

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Speaker 6: You know, how many people do you know that you

401
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Speaker 6: were close with, you, you had a real relationship with, that

402
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Speaker 6: have been murdered?

403
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Speaker 2: Twenty twenty five?

404
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,080
Speaker 1: That's how many?

405
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Speaker 5: I know?

406
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Speaker 2: How many?

407
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Speaker 1: Zero?

408
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:06,240
Speaker 4: Yeah?

409
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Speaker 1: You know how many I know that have been close? Zero? Right,

410
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Speaker 1: So you're talking about yeah, different environments, So.

411
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, that's great.

412
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Speaker 5: We have two Shepherd systems of justice in America, one

413
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Speaker 5: for people with money and one for people without and

414
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Speaker 5: one for people who are of color and one for

415
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Speaker 5: people who are not. And when and when you hit

416
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Speaker 5: that jackpot of the reverse jackpot of being a person

417
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Speaker 5: of color without being born into a wealthy family, which

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Speaker 5: is a huge majority.

419
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Speaker 2: You don't even have to come from a wealthy family

420
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Speaker 2: to like not be around somebody that was murdered. It's

421
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Speaker 2: really like territorial, Like I got one of my songs

422
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,399
Speaker 2: where I'm talking about like like we've been put in

423
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Speaker 2: groups in certain areas, even with public house and public house,

424
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Speaker 2: and it's really across Philadelphia. So if you grow grow

425
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Speaker 2: up less fortunate, they're sticking people in certain areas if

426
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Speaker 2: you pay attention to it, Like it's North Philadelphia, but

427
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Speaker 2: not the whole North Philadelphia is a certain part in

428
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Speaker 2: South Philadelphia. It's a rich part of South Philadelphia where

429
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Speaker 2: like houses cost a million dollars in and then you

430
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Speaker 2: got some houses that cost forty thousand. They only moving

431
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Speaker 2: us in certain areas. And I always say this, like

432
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Speaker 2: if you take a drone, the main line of Philadelphia

433
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Speaker 2: is like city Line Avenue where my apartments used to

434
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Speaker 2: be at City Line Avenue. You take a drone and

435
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Speaker 2: then you make the drone go high in the sky,

436
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Speaker 2: and if the drone had a zoom and kerd zoom,

437
00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,679
Speaker 2: and on this side of the left and right, you

438
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,119
Speaker 2: will see it's quiet his peace here and this chaos

439
00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:27,080
Speaker 2: going here. And if you take a kid from over

440
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,440
Speaker 2: here and let him spend three summers in this area,

441
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,679
Speaker 2: it will be less. He won't be the way the

442
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,080
Speaker 2: chaos says. He would turn to be more leaning like

443
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 2: these people in this area. And I witnessed that with

444
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,360
Speaker 2: my family. I used to have a nephew. He lived

445
00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 2: in the projects. He used to cuss, He's seen a

446
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 2: lot of things. He used to act up in school,

447
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,240
Speaker 2: and you know, he moved to a suburban area and

448
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,919
Speaker 2: his whole life changed within two years. It was just

449
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:52,480
Speaker 2: that simple.

450
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:54,720
Speaker 5: And I want to ask you this, Meek, because I

451
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 5: come from the music industry. In fact, today's my thirty

452
00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 5: ninth birthday in the music industry, believe it or not.

453
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:00,639
Speaker 5: Because I started when I was eighteen years old. I

454
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 5: know I look younger than that. I don't have to

455
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 5: say it, thank you very much anyway, But yeah, I

456
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,520
Speaker 5: started July thirty first, nineteen seventy nine point on posters

457
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,359
Speaker 5: and record stores. But that's beside the point for a

458
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 5: long time, and nobody talks about this, But for a

459
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:17,680
Speaker 5: long time, I've been pondering, thinking about obsessed with the

460
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:24,160
Speaker 5: idea of with the grim statistics and scenario that we're

461
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,399
Speaker 5: painting here, how many people, and you're exactly the guy

462
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 5: want to ask this question, how many people as talented

463
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 5: as you are either got shot or got locked up

464
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,679
Speaker 5: more importantly, got locked up in prison, and society as

465
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:42,480
Speaker 5: a result is being deprived of those talents and all

466
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 5: the revenue and all the culture that would have come

467
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,920
Speaker 5: from that. How many jay zs are there that didn't

468
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 5: make it out and ended up in prison doing back of.

469
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,239
Speaker 2: The life thousands, you know what I'm saying. I know

470
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 2: as guys in there and locked it with as talented

471
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 2: as me, You know what I'm saying. And they probably

472
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 2: there for felonies on felonies. And when you say, like

473
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 2: when people label you as a fella, like how it's

474
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:04,880
Speaker 2: that my friend caught a fella and he was fifteen

475
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,159
Speaker 2: for something he ain't do now. Actually when he do

476
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 2: make a mistake, when he do go hang on the

477
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,959
Speaker 2: corner or when we come up on the corner around

478
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,880
Speaker 2: drug doos, everybody sell drugs. Your first step is to

479
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 2: pick up a drug. So when you get your second felony,

480
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 2: you might be actually good at basketball. You might have

481
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 2: been in eleventh grade and actually one of the best

482
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,439
Speaker 2: players on the team. And here come you in a

483
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 2: bad neighborhood. You get arrested for something else, and we

484
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:35,360
Speaker 2: don't have a lawyer money. You might take a deal,

485
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 2: and the deal is put this fellow on your record.

486
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 2: Now you got three felonies on your record, and you're

487
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 2: not They might call you a career criminal. You're not

488
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 2: a career criminal. You just was in the wrong mix. Basically,

489
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 2: Now you might get fifteen years for something small. You

490
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:51,920
Speaker 2: see how he told you that the guy got fifteen

491
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 2: Well he had two life sentince for stealing. Now your record,

492
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 2: your jacket is up. You get fifteen years. So now

493
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 2: you trapped inside a prison. You will never get a

494
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,200
Speaker 2: real shot at life, and you might be good as

495
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,919
Speaker 2: Ben Simmons, Joe m bib and you know all that

496
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,679
Speaker 2: went down to dream But far us rap is the

497
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 2: hundreds of it was probably at least fifty guys that

498
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 2: was actually good. Where I was at, where I was

499
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 2: locked up at, where if they was on the street.

500
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 2: We would spend time in the studio and build together

501
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:21,879
Speaker 2: and make music together. Fifty I would say in that

502
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 2: one prison that I know of, and rap music.

503
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 5: And this will surprise probably very few people that are

504
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 5: listeners of the podcast, But recently, hip hop recently passed

505
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,200
Speaker 5: rock and roll, every rock pop as the most popular

506
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,399
Speaker 5: genre worldwide. Right, and it all comes from almost all

507
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 5: of it comes from America. Right, Yeah, So when we're

508
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,679
Speaker 5: exporting that, we're bringing tax revenue into this country. When

509
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 5: we're when guys like you are making records, selling millions

510
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 5: of records, selling concert tickets, you're paying taxes. All that

511
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 5: stuff goes back into the system. Everybody is being hurt

512
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 5: by that, and society is being deprived of geniuses at

513
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:59,239
Speaker 5: As you said, basketball is another story, right, But when

514
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 5: you talk about it like that, you have a kid

515
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 5: as good as whoever you want to talk about, Simmons

516
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 5: or whatever. They get arrested like that, the college scholarships

517
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 5: going out the window. They can't play college ball now,

518
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 5: their whole their whole thing. And let's say that guy

519
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 5: was going to make one hundred million dollars not unrealistic,

520
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,159
Speaker 5: but one of the seventy six ers year.

521
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 6: Right, You're what, right, we look forward to writing many

522
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 6: checks for one hundred million dollars because that we have

523
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 6: that many great players.

524
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 5: And let me ask you, do those players pay taxes

525
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 5: on those checks? Of course, of course they do, right,

526
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,360
Speaker 5: huge amouth back into the city, coming back to the state,

527
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 5: coming back into the country, because those people were the

528
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 5: few lucky ones that managed to escape from this, you know,

529
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 5: sort of trap that society has built.

530
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 6: But even more than money, if you look at the

531
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 6: math and you say there's six point seven or six

532
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 6: point nine million people today in America trapped in the

533
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:44,679
Speaker 6: criminal justice system, the.

534
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 1: Question is what's appropriate.

535
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 6: Like if we just all said, if you got anyone

536
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 6: together and said, what do you think someone should be

537
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 6: in prison for? What should someone be on probation for?

538
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 6: If you said, hey, that person got caught smoking weed?

539
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 6: Should any of there's people be in prison from sif's

540
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 6: if someone stole one hundred dollars as a fifteen year

541
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 6: old kid, should they be stuck in prison? And the

542
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 6: amount of story, Like I think if you looked at

543
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 6: the math and just said, let's just take this top down,

544
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 6: there's six point seven or six nine point nine million

545
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 6: people in the criminal justice system, I think you could

546
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 6: say if we just all said what should people be

547
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 6: in the system for and not being the system. We

548
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 6: just took a bunch of rational people. The number is

549
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 6: probably half. And so to me, what's such a travesty

550
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 6: is you've got millions of people stuck in the criminal

551
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,640
Speaker 6: justice system that don't belong there, and by the way,

552
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 6: you're ruining their lives, their families, lives, their friends' lives.

553
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 6: By the way, there's a lot of people that belong

554
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 6: in prison. We want to live in a safe world.

555
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 6: We want to have you know, violent offenders, people that

556
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 6: are murder people or rapists.

557
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: You know, armed robbers.

558
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 6: There are a lot of people that belong in prison,

559
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 6: and I want those people in prison. But the problem

560
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 6: is there's millions of people that shouldn't be in the

561
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 6: criminal justice system that are. And that's the problem that

562
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 6: needs to be addressed. And that's what I know. Meek

563
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 6: is really excited to help make an impact on. I'm

564
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 6: excited to help make an impact on I think this

565
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 6: is an enormous problem that's costing tens of billions of

566
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 6: dollars and is ruined millions of people's lives.

567
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 5: So, yeah, and Michael, picking up on what you were

568
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 5: saying thirty thirty five years ago, we had three hundred

569
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 5: thousand people in prison in America. Right now it's two

570
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 5: point two million. And I'm sure the numbers on probation

571
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 5: and parole were proportionately about, you know, seven times less

572
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 5: like this one is too. And then you look at

573
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 5: the country like Japan, right, well, we locked If you

574
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 5: look at Western Europe, we lock people up at five

575
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 5: to nine times, depending which country you choose, the rate

576
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 5: of the rest of the countries in Western Europe, the

577
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 5: lowest is five times as many per capita. Right, And

578
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 5: then when you look at we have more people in

579
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 5: prison just for drugs in America than everyone in prison

580
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 5: of all of Western Europe for everything. And Western Europe

581
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 5: is much more than many more people in Western Europe

582
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 5: than the we're in America. And then you get to Japan.

583
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 5: In Japan they have approximately seventy thousand people in prison.

584
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 5: We probably have seventy thousand people in prison in a

585
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 5: mid sized state, yeah, maybe even a smaller state than

586
00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 5: this one, right, yeah, because I mean do the math.

587
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 5: So we lock people up at fourteen times the rate

588
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 5: per capita that Japan does. And for anybody listening, going, yeah,

589
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 5: but that's why we have a lower crime rate than

590
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 5: they do. No, we don't. Our crimemates are the same,

591
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 5: and there's no evidence that supports. In fact, I think

592
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 5: every social scientist that has studied this would agree that

593
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 5: this system is the worst system in terms of you know,

594
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 5: in terms of crime and perpetuating the cycle because of

595
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 5: the fact that when people go to jail or prison,

596
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 5: as we talked about, growing up in the situation they are,

597
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 5: they come out, they're unemployable to I'll understanding. That's something

598
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 5: I talk about on the show a lot, like people

599
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 5: that are out there that are employers take a shot

600
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 5: with somebody who was system affected, because those people will

601
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 5: work harder and better. You know, there's a bakery in

602
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 5: New York I just found out about I saw Ted

603
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 5: talk about this that hires anybody who walks in system affected.

604
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 5: They don't even ask, and they're hugely successful. They make

605
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 5: all the brownies for Ben and Jerry's ice cream. Right

606
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 5: they sell a zillion can imagine ay brownie's.

607
00:28:58,160 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: I want a lot of them right now because we

608
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 1: have a little weight loss back on us. We can

609
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: get this delivered to.

610
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 5: Him right now. Last time.

611
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, neither is he looks heavier though.

612
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 5: No, but it's you know, that's something that we really

613
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 5: need to as a society start to uh be much

614
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 5: more progressive on and you know, more like empathetic. I mean,

615
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,479
Speaker 5: I don't want to sound like some like touchy feely

616
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 5: person here. And I'm with you, Michael.

617
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 6: I believe think that's an easier problem to solve because

618
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 6: I've actually been thinking, Look, we employ eight thousand people

619
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 6: between my companies, and you know, I think if you

620
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 6: got you know, a bunch of business leaders to focus

621
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 6: on taking big companies and saying what areas in the

622
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 6: company can start to take people right out of prison

623
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 6: to help rehabilitate them. I think there's actually I think

624
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 6: there are I think there are actually.

625
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: Easy ways to make real progress. Scancel.

626
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 6: I'm actually optimistic with a little bit of focus and

627
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 6: energy that real.

628
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 1: Impact can be made there well.

629
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 6: And another way that I can tell you, I think

630
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 6: a lot of the time, a lot of those cases,

631
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 6: you have better employees, as you just indicated as well.

632
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 6: So if we took we have you know, thousands of

633
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 6: people that manufacture a power working for filment centers, working

634
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 6: call centers. You know, I think that So my point

635
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 6: is there's you know, big opportunities to hire people. And

636
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 6: I think that you know, again, if you look at

637
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 6: how many people work in America and then how many

638
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 6: people coming out of prison or jail each year. If

639
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 6: there's two point two million people in prison in jail,

640
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 6: maybe I don't know, five hundred thousand people come out

641
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 6: a year. I don't think it takes a lot to

642
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 6: get a set of big companies Joy focus on helping

643
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 6: solve this problem.

644
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 2: And especially with long time offenders, like a long time offenders,

645
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 2: like people who serve over ten years, they spend most

646
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 2: of their jail time working. In fact, the results working

647
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 2: for the prison that their mind they have experienced, their

648
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 2: mind is structured to just work all day. And Member

649
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 2: Rabbal was telling us he had a program we hired

650
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 2: like a lot of ex offenders, and he asked me, like,

651
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 2: how many of them messed up? Was you in that conversation?

652
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 2: He asked me said how many you think messed up?

653
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 2: Out of two hundred, I'm probably like I said one

654
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 2: ninety eight because I knew the number would be high.

655
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 2: Because I know of long time offenders, people that come

656
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 2: home doing a lot of time, they don't they don't

657
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: really want to mess up again. He told me nothing

658
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 2: out of two hundred none.

659
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's amazing.

660
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: I was only two of I think this was twenty

661
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: to thirty years ago.

662
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 6: Robert Craft had a real focus on taking people that

663
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 6: had come out of prison at hiring them. And the

664
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 6: point to your point, was there his best employees.

665
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's best employees. And it's interesting too. I mean,

666
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 5: call it luck, call whatever you want. I've got. I've

667
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 5: been very fortunate, blessed whatever to be able to help

668
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 5: advocate successfully for clemency for dozens of people deserving people

669
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 5: over the years, not just people who are innocent, but

670
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 5: people who were primarily who are sentenced the mandatory senses,

671
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 5: crazy mandatory sentences like Lenny Singleton, who you referenced earlier,

672
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 5: or Travian Blount who was senced just at fifteen years

673
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 5: old since to six life terms for a robbery in

674
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 5: which no one was hurt. Fifteen years old, six life terms.

675
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 5: It made international news, like what it What in the

676
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 5: world even is that? Like that's it's got to be

677
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 5: well it is.

678
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 2: That should be a crown That sentence of minds today

679
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 2: like why that's and.

680
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 6: And to me, that's the that should be the easy

681
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 6: things to get everyone aligned on and fix. And by

682
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 6: the way, take talk about the state that meek us

683
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 6: from that I'm from. In Pennsylvania, we're one of three

684
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 6: states in America that has no cap on probation. So

685
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 6: an the forty seven states have caps of probation summer,

686
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 6: three years, two years, four years.

687
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: We have no cap in Pennsylvania.

688
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 2: Yeh.

689
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 6: So someone like me who I didn't know that was

690
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 6: separate that he was wrongfully convicted thirteen years ago appointing

691
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 6: a gun that didn't point a gun and a cop

692
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 6: by the way, where multiple police officers come forward and

693
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 6: said it was a lie. So we have affid davits

694
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 6: from a police officer came for in and said, no,

695
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 6: I was one of the two resting officers and know

696
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 6: he didn't.

697
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: Point the gun.

698
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 6: Okay, Now, after after after that, you've still got you've

699
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 6: got a system that just come completely completely broken. And

700
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 6: in Pennsylvania, he gets sentenced to probation and then he

701
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 6: does a concert in a different state without the proper

702
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 6: authorization and attack on another five years of probation. And

703
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 6: now he's got he's still six years of probation left. Right,

704
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 6: So he's got no chance to actually succeed in that situation.

705
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 6: And I can tell you if you put me, the

706
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 6: Jewish kid from suburban Philadelphia on probation, I couldn't make

707
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 6: a year with what he needs to go through.

708
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 5: There's not possible.

709
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 2: In the primetime fuck up years of my life from

710
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 2: eighteen to thirty one, he's the prime years where you

711
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 2: make mistakes.

712
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 1: I still fuck up a forty six.

713
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 5: By the way, Yeah, breathing while lack is basically a

714
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 5: probation violation. But what I was going to say before

715
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 5: is that of the people that I've been involved with,

716
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 5: that that I've helped to get out of prison, none

717
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 5: of them have reoffended or offended for the first time

718
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,879
Speaker 5: in the cases of which they were innocent. None but

719
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 5: hold on, some will.

720
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 6: And that's okay because you know what, at the end

721
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 6: of the day, we need to make the world a

722
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 6: better place. And if we get millions of people out

723
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 6: of the criminal justice system, and if you make mistakes,

724
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 6: that's okay because there's a lot of people that aren't

725
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 6: in the criminal justice system that will also make mistakes.

726
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 6: This is never going to be perfect, and that's someone says, hey,

727
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 6: we should keep that six point seven or six point

728
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 6: nine million people stuck in the criminal justice system, the

729
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 6: few million that shouldn't be there because someone may make

730
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 6: a mistake. Nothing's perfect like we need. We need to

731
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 6: get it right overall. And that's the same approach I

732
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 6: take in business. We want to make good overall decisions.

733
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 6: We don't go for perfection. If we went for perfection,

734
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 6: we never get anything done.

735
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 5: Of course, not. As I said, I've been lucky in

736
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 5: that sense. And of the people of the Innoc's project,

737
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 5: of the people that we've gotten out, a tiny percentage of

738
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,399
Speaker 5: them have ever been in any sort of trouble. Again,

739
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 5: people age Trent and we.

740
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 2: Were talking about real trouble. Probably zero they got back

741
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 2: in real trouble.

742
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 5: We know that people age out of crime. There's a

743
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,399
Speaker 5: couple of other very important topics I want to touch

744
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 5: on with you, Meek and Michael. One is prisons themselves

745
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,720
Speaker 5: and how barbaric our prison system is when it's supposed

746
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 5: to be called a correctional institution, and we know that

747
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 5: that is the farthest thing from the truth in most cases.

748
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,760
Speaker 5: And the other is how important it is for people

749
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 5: to get out and vote, because I don't think we

750
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 5: can have this conversation without talking about that. You just

751
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 5: are in the middle of actually a criminal justice revamp

752
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 5: slash and some people I've heard somebody say, we don't

753
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 5: need criminal justice perform, we need a criminal justice revolution. Well,

754
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 5: in Philadelphia, that's taking place under your eyes because of

755
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,279
Speaker 5: an election, right and an election in which I can

756
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,359
Speaker 5: bet that eighty something to percent of people didn't vote

757
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 5: at least right because of the DA's race. And so

758
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 5: I mean, what can you say, which one do you

759
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 5: want to take on? First of those times we could.

760
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 2: Talk vote in it. This coming from our on where

761
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 2: we come from. Wasn't it a few years ago? Could

762
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 2: you even vote when you was a fela? Did that change?

763
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 5: I don't know if it's changed. We're trying to change it.

764
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 5: And well, it was changed in Virginia, Governor McAuliffe, fix

765
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 5: that reenfranchised two hundred thousand people. In Florida. There's a

766
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 5: referendum on the ballot. Now, anyone who's listening in Florida,

767
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,720
Speaker 5: you must vote on this referendum. We're going to restore

768
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 5: the right of x Fellons to vote. There's seven hundred

769
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 5: thousand people in Florida who can't vote.

770
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this goes, this goes far us back when

771
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 2: I say, like the other side of America where people

772
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 2: don't even believe like that world tends to us. And

773
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 2: I used to think that, but that was that was

774
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 2: deeply false and part of my campaign this year twenty eighteen,

775
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, as I moving around, one of my jobs

776
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,760
Speaker 2: is trying to teach people and teach people the ropes

777
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 2: of how vootn't go because it's even with a judge

778
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,320
Speaker 2: trying to lock me up for what going on? Nothing

779
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 2: going over a bridge. Basically, we voted for her district

780
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:14,240
Speaker 2: attorneys where they enforce mandatory minimums and they enforced locking

781
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 2: people up for smoking marijuana and things like that. We

782
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 2: vote for them. We have to be the ones that vote.

783
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 2: In our culture, the black community, a lot of us

784
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 2: don't vote. So it's like white community too. Yeah, you know,

785
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 2: I don't really know. I know that in our community

786
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 2: we don't vote at all. I don't even know anybody

787
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 2: my age. At the age of eighteen, we ever got

788
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 2: up as a group and everybody wanted to vote. It

789
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 2: was like never a thing. We didn't believe in it.

790
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,879
Speaker 2: So my new thing is to teach the younger people

791
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 2: from our culture that come up, well, all younger people

792
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 2: that come up, that voting is important because you know,

793
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 2: we have to live under these laws that these people

794
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 2: are creating, and if we don't vote, we don't have

795
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:53,800
Speaker 2: a voice at all. It's like you don't even count.

796
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 2: And a lot of times you look at TV even

797
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 2: they had a campaign that said voter or yeah. I

798
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 2: always seen it, but I never really knew what it meant.

799
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 2: It was that probably was like eighteen years old when

800
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 2: they did that campaign. I never really understood it. But

801
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 2: nowadays I understood. It's like you even vote, or you

802
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 2: get house done a regime which will eventually kill you,

803
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 2: if not by jail, not by placing you in a

804
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 2: keeping you in a ruthless environment, it will turn out

805
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 2: bad for you, basically. And I just believe that if

806
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 2: we vote, if we make our presence on like justice reform.

807
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:34,800
Speaker 2: Justice reform right now is the number one topic in America.

808
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 2: Probably so me too. Justice reform. These are like the

809
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 2: biggest topics of America, And I think if we make

810
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 2: this topic big enough politically, a lot of people would

811
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 2: have to lean towards being leaning on these topics and coming.

812
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: To like I want you as leaning, i'd say appropriate.

813
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I say, I say punishment to fit the crime,

814
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 6: because by the way, I'm not leaning.

815
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: I want appropriate punishment.

816
00:38:58,680 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 2: And that was right.

817
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 5: That was that was right.

818
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 2: And and when we even speaking lenient, like I would say,

819
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 2: like what is lean and this lead into how barbaric

820
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 2: jail prisons are.

821
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 5: Right, But before you go there, you know, I've been

822
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 5: on the board of Families Against Mandatory Minimums, was a

823
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 5: great organization for over twenty five years now, and our

824
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 5: motto is let the punishment fit the crime. Yeah, I mean,

825
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 5: nobody's advocating for chaos. Nobody wants a society that is like,

826
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 5: you know.

827
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: I want to feel I want to feel safe.

828
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 6: Everybody does want I want my daughter to be safe,

829
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 6: I want your family to be safe.

830
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 5: But I want his kids to be safe too.

831
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 2: In some situations though, that the crimes are so high

832
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 2: up is like what is lenient? Like if something like basically.

833
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 6: But I'll make something really simple like two how many

834
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:45,800
Speaker 6: people I say, how many people are in prison and

835
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 6: jail today are on probation because they have a drug problem.

836
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 1: It's more than a million. Yeah, okay, yeah, I'm not

837
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,959
Speaker 1: talking about selling drugs. I'm anyone who smoked weed.

838
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 6: How could you possibly we just becoming legal everywhere. How

839
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,240
Speaker 6: could you possibly put someone in the criminal trust system

840
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:03,720
Speaker 6: for joining something that's becoming legal?

841
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: Makes absolutely no sense.

842
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 6: Someone had a problem with percocet, Why do you send

843
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 6: them a jail, send to rehab It makes no sense.

844
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 6: So to me, that's that's where the punishment needs to

845
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:12,839
Speaker 6: fit the crime.

846
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 1: I already take everybody who has a drug problem. Yeah,

847
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: I don't get them help so they solve the drug problem.

848
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 2: But it's like it's deep as this, Like if I

849
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 2: sell drugs and the cops come to my house and

850
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 2: I'm not there, my mom get found guilty for these

851
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 2: drugs in my house and the drugs are in her house.

852
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 2: She may know these drugs are in her house and

853
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,800
Speaker 2: she gets found guilt. The people moms are getting thirty

854
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 2: years in prison in federal prison for stuff like that.

855
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 2: Like your mom got thirty years in prison because she

856
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 2: didn't get your thirty years. It's like a lot, you

857
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 2: know what. Thing. So that's a life sentence, that's death, right,

858
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:45,399
Speaker 2: And you.

859
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 5: Talked about that earlier and about how people get caught

860
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 5: up just because there's death.

861
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's deaf, like you don't want to send you

862
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 2: to prison, even though she might preach to you every

863
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 2: day that you're selling drugs. You're getting out of my

864
00:40:58,320 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 2: house and she knows wrong, but.

865
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: You have son's not going to this.

866
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 5: Know this that if you're in a car with someone

867
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 5: who's got drugs and you get pulled over and they

868
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 5: find the drugs, it belongs to everybody unless somebody takes

869
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 5: responsibility for it, and nobody ever does. Nobody ever goes,

870
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,359
Speaker 5: oh yeah, those are mine, right. So this is how

871
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 5: crazy the system is, where you could just be next

872
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 5: to someone who's doing something wrong and then you get ed.

873
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 2: I'm not even talking about four innocis. I'm just talking about, like, say,

874
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 2: if you come from where I come from, like your

875
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 2: mom on a crack, she's a strung out fiend. You

876
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 2: thirteen years old, you got a seven year old sister,

877
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,760
Speaker 2: and you coming in the house, it's just baking soda

878
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 2: and butter and refrigerator. And when you go out look

879
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 2: out the window, it's people on the corner selling weed, marijuana,

880
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 2: crack cocaine, and they running in fast cash and your

881
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 2: little sister don't got none to eat. The first thing

882
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 2: you're gonna do is go outside and pick up like

883
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 2: this is like normal, Like, Mike, if you was in

884
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 2: a situation, I bet a million dollars on it that

885
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 2: you would go outside and pick out of a drug.

886
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 2: If Kylie was in the house, you seven, you fourteen.

887
00:41:58,880 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: Hard have made work for me.

888
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,320
Speaker 2: Do you know what I'm saying. I'm talking about stuff. No,

889
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 2: I'm talking about if you don't have any of this

890
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 2: going on, and you're poor, like you don't have any

891
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 2: family in the house, and you come see Kylie and there,

892
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 2: but after a while, this is gonna this is going on.

893
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 6: But five that's also where should that person have no punishment? No,

894
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 6: should they be set to jail for thirty years? Especial

895
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 6: ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

896
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 1: And that's why it said to me.

897
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 2: But even if you bring it down to ten years,

898
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 2: it's not even a ten year thing. Ten years will

899
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 2: ruin your life. So like what they got is leaning,

900
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 2: is not even leaning, like it's the thing the rates

901
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 2: of boostep so high, like what they call like I

902
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,359
Speaker 2: watch media and social send them to prison. Like even

903
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 2: when people be like he should have went to prison,

904
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 2: he breaks broke probation. Even if I did break probation.

905
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 2: If I did commit a crime ten years ago and

906
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 2: I broke probation, people are like, send them back to prison.

907
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 2: I'm like, do you know what prison is like? When

908
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 2: I say shackled up in a cage, I mean like

909
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 2: shack of real change. When you take a baby step

910
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 2: is cutting your legs and like the same thing you

911
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 2: see in a slavery movie. It's the same thing. And

912
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 2: I'm like, do people really understand what they saying, like

913
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 2: send them to prison. Like Mike came to myself. Mike

914
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 2: was like, he was like, it's not bad as it

915
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 2: could be in my head.

916
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 6: I'm like, oh, but that's because I'm an optimistic person

917
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 6: and I always want to look at things positively.

918
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 2: And it's ten degrees. I don't have a tallest seat.

919
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 2: The water that I'm coming out of my sink is

920
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,880
Speaker 2: the same water connected to the tall is filthy. Like

921
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,359
Speaker 2: it's like there's ten mices in my cell at night

922
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 2: running around you like is you can't even imagine it?

923
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 2: And I'm like, I'm here, I didn't hurt anybody. I

924
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 2: didn't kill anybody.

925
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 1: I didn't by the way, they think it bothers me

926
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:37,839
Speaker 1: so much.

927
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 6: The amount of people I've told about your story and

928
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,919
Speaker 6: everyone it's now proven that you were wrongfully convicted because

929
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 6: we have a cop who is one of the two

930
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 6: arresting officers who sign an APPI davit saying no, you

931
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 6: didn't point the gun, which what you were charged for.

932
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 6: Yet yeah, and your probation violations where you popped a

933
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 6: wheelie on a motorcycle, you broke up a fight in

934
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 6: an airport, yet there are people put them back in

935
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 6: jail for ten years, which is it shows how backwards

936
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:05,439
Speaker 6: so many people are in this country as well.

937
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 2: Just when you speak on jail that is like it's

938
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 2: just like it's just like a place, a hotel where

939
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 2: you go to sit at. Nah, it's some shit that

940
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 2: will ruin your whole train of thought, like you were

941
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 2: in here, Like the matches sleeping on is probably four

942
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 2: inches thick, and after that it is metal and cement,

943
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 2: Like you got eighty minutes. These guys eighty years old

944
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 2: sleeping on mattresses and stuff, like they didn't kill anybody.

945
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 2: They may have been on probation and they fell in

946
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 2: the after felling in. You eighty years old, You you poor,

947
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 2: You've been in the system so long it's hard to explain.

948
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 2: You have to see it and be there. Like even

949
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 2: what they do with juveniles, They got juveniles locked in cages.

950
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 2: These are cement cages that they had these kids, and

951
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:49,280
Speaker 2: most of these kids didn't kill anybody.

952
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: Now tell you something. I was so proud of you,

953
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 1: but it's a scary story.

954
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 6: So the day that I brought Robert Craft to visit

955
00:44:55,719 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 6: make in prison, we were sitting there and we were

956
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 6: just kind of talking, and I was really just kind

957
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 6: of listening to Robert Meek talking. And Robert looked at

958
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 6: me and he said, you know, I don't understand how

959
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 6: you're handling this. How are you so happy? He said, Like,

960
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 6: last time I was with you, we were on a

961
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 6: plane flying to an All Star game and you were

962
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 6: on the top of the world. Now you're in an

963
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,839
Speaker 6: orange jumpsuit, locked in prison. You've got to smile from

964
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 6: ear to ear. And Mick, he's generally pretty quick with

965
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 6: his answer. You thought about it for about thirty seconds,

966
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 6: and he looked at Robert and he said, you know,

967
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 6: this has been my entire adult life. I was wrongfully

968
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 6: convicted for a crime in and commit I've been sent

969
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 6: back to prison multiple times, never committed a new crime.

970
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:45,839
Speaker 6: But this is the first time people are actually fighting for me,

971
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 6: and that makes me so happy. So for me, I

972
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 6: was mortified at the situation, but completely proud of how

973
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 6: well he was handling that horrific situation.

974
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the best situation I've ever been there

975
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 2: as far as dealing with the system, with having like

976
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:02,399
Speaker 2: real credible people stand behind me, because, like Mike said,

977
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:04,720
Speaker 2: I'm telling them, like, yo, you really think I should

978
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 2: if y'all had guns in here, You're not even police officers.

979
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 2: If I came in here all y'all had firearms and

980
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 2: I came in here pointing a gun nine times out

981
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 2: of ten, where would I be?

982
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:14,760
Speaker 5: Of course?

983
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 2: So when the police off guns against a cop Probyn, Yeah,

984
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:22,320
Speaker 2: cops are trained to neutralize people who cause threat towards

985
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 2: their lives, Like this is like normal, Like you get

986
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 2: away with this, This is what you should do. You're

987
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 2: trained to do this, not me one on one with

988
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,320
Speaker 2: a cop, like and you know, one on one, anybody

989
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:34,799
Speaker 2: could get scared and want to run away. Now this

990
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,839
Speaker 2: is a group of cops doing a full blown read

991
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 2: and me being accused of pointing a gun at all

992
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 2: of them. Man, so so so.

993
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 5: Me, we're down to uh, we're running out of time

994
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 5: with one more question, which is a hard one for me.

995
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 5: There's so many questions I want to ask you and Michael,

996
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 5: but I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna narrow it down

997
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 5: to one. Before I do that, I want to remind

998
00:46:55,960 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 5: people who are listening vote, vote and vote vote in

999
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 5: your local races and your DA's races and your judges races.

1000
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 5: Your vote counts. We have votes, we have races that

1001
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 5: actually ended up tied, right, I mean, your vote counts.

1002
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 2: And you, judge, don't have to be white against the

1003
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 2: black to be racist. It could be white on white racism,

1004
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,399
Speaker 2: it could be black on black racism. And make sure

1005
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 2: you vote for the right people. And when you vote

1006
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 2: for judges, nobody really knows because you just see a judge.

1007
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 6: On DA you can make good decisions. And people knew

1008
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 6: when they voted for the DA in Pennsylvania that he

1009
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 6: was a more thoughtful person on the criminal justice system.

1010
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 6: And there been lots of new DA's that have had

1011
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,320
Speaker 6: much more modern approaches. That approach hasn't been lock everybody

1012
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 6: up and put all black American in prison. It's been

1013
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 6: let's have it accurate punishment for a crime, and that's

1014
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 6: who you should be voting for.

1015
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 5: And I'm going to say one more thing before I

1016
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 5: turned the last question over to you, which is, everybody

1017
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 5: who's out there, at some point you're going to get

1018
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 5: asked to serve on a jury. Nobody likes it. We

1019
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:56,839
Speaker 5: get those things in the mail, We're like, oh my god,

1020
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:58,919
Speaker 5: I got a time for this whatever. It's a big

1021
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 5: paint of you got to go because when you go,

1022
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 5: there might be a meek Mill in front of you,

1023
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 5: there might be somebody else who's meeting and Eric Riddick

1024
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:10,759
Speaker 5: in front of your case that all three of us

1025
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 5: are involved with. Then we're going to get him out

1026
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 5: come hell or high water. So get up, get out,

1027
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 5: and go vote, and go serve on the jury because

1028
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 5: the ask you save could be your own. And now,

1029
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 5: rather than ask a final question, I'm just going to

1030
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:27,399
Speaker 5: do what I do at the end of the show,

1031
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 5: which is I always say it's my favorite part of

1032
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:30,879
Speaker 5: the show, and I think it's probably the audience's favorite

1033
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:33,240
Speaker 5: part of the show too, which is when I stop

1034
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 5: talking and just turn the mic over to you for

1035
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 5: final last words. And Michael, I'm going to let you

1036
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 5: go first and then me can back clean up and

1037
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:45,399
Speaker 5: close out the show. So, Michael, what would you want

1038
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:47,359
Speaker 5: to tell people? How could they get involved? What can

1039
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 5: they do? What's the solution?

1040
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 6: Well, I think we're in a great position because I

1041
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 6: actually think this is a big problem that needs to

1042
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:57,359
Speaker 6: be addressed. I think it's going to be I think

1043
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 6: it would just take common sense to this juice problem.

1044
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 6: We're going to make the world a better place. And

1045
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 6: I'm actually for a guy who had absolutely zero point

1046
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 6: zero exposure to the criminal justice system until I met Meek,

1047
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 6: and I'm still really didn't understand it until November sixth

1048
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 6: of last year. I'm really optimistic because I believe that

1049
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 6: this is a completely broken system that with a lot

1050
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 6: of focus and energy, we can make the country a

1051
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 6: much better place than to me, that's exciting. So you know,

1052
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:28,840
Speaker 6: what I'd say to everybody is make a difference. I

1053
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:31,879
Speaker 6: didn't make any difference until seven months ago. And I'm

1054
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 6: actually you know, I've got three great businesses that I run,

1055
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:36,720
Speaker 6: and I've got a great daughter and great family and friends.

1056
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 6: Yet I'm as energized about this as anything because I

1057
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 6: see how broken it is, and I see how much

1058
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 6: fixing it needs.

1059
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 5: Meek last words, and before you even go, I want

1060
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 5: to thank you and Michael. Thank you not just for

1061
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:52,839
Speaker 5: being on the show, but for lending your voice and

1062
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 5: your energy and your money and your time to this movement.

1063
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 6: Thank you for your focus. What you're doing is in credible.

1064
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,879
Speaker 6: Well you've been at this for twenty five years. Mek's

1065
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 6: been stucking the system for thirteen years, and I've been

1066
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 6: at this for seven months.

1067
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 1: So thank you.

1068
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:08,879
Speaker 5: Well I'm older than yours. I've had more time question

1069
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 5: Nonethe last time. But yeah, it's a very it's a

1070
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 5: you know, it's an obsession and I'm not going to

1071
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 5: stop until we fix it together. So but anyway, so

1072
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 5: thank you both again for being here and sharing your

1073
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 5: thoughts and your energy, your collective wisdom. So, Meek, what

1074
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 5: are your last words for the audience that's out there?

1075
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 2: My last words to the audience, just know I'm dedicated.

1076
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 2: This is a life mission. I actually suffer from the

1077
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 2: criminal justice system for over ten years. And you know,

1078
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:41,600
Speaker 2: I actually walked the walk on the other side of

1079
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 2: the wall with some innocent men who I know are

1080
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 2: basically suffering and families are suffering. So you know, I

1081
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 2: felt the pain firsthand, and you know, I'm gonna continue

1082
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 2: to do what I need to do to help make

1083
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 2: change and not fix the system, but break the system

1084
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:04,040
Speaker 2: completely and rebuild it again. Because the way we lived

1085
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 2: and the things we've been through with the system, it

1086
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 2: doesn't even take crime or take being a villain to

1087
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 2: go to jail, you know what I'm saying. And you know,

1088
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 2: it's thousands of millions of people trapped inside on the

1089
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 2: other side of the wall that actually need help. And

1090
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 2: you know, I think this is the right season to

1091
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 2: make change and putting all my efforts onto it, and hopefully,

1092
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 2: you know, we make change within the next few years

1093
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 2: and free a lot of people from the prison system.

1094
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:33,360
Speaker 5: We're going We're going to do it. We're going to

1095
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 5: do it together, and we need everybody's help. I did

1096
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 5: want to say that there's a book that really touches

1097
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:40,879
Speaker 5: on everything that you went through called On the Run

1098
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 5: by Alice Goffman, where she chronicles life in a Princeton

1099
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:50,239
Speaker 5: PhD sociologist who went and lived on Sixth Street in

1100
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:54,319
Speaker 5: Philadelphia for eighteen months, and just one thing I wanted

1101
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:56,919
Speaker 5: to read from here, which I think, really we'll give

1102
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 5: people an insight into what goes on and then will

1103
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 5: wrap up. But she said, in the first eighteen months

1104
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:04,200
Speaker 5: that I spent the neighborhood at least once a day,

1105
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 5: I watched the police stop pedestrians or people in cars,

1106
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 5: search them, run their name for warrants, ask them to

1107
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 5: come in for questioning, or make an arrest. And that

1108
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,360
Speaker 5: same eighteen month period, I watched the police breakdown doors,

1109
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,320
Speaker 5: search houses and question arrest or chase people through houses

1110
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 5: fifty two times. Nine times, police her helicopters circle overhead

1111
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 5: and beam search slights on the local streets. I noticed

1112
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 5: blocks taped off in traffic redirected as police search for

1113
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 5: evidence fourteen times. During my first eighteen months of near

1114
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:34,759
Speaker 5: daily observation, I watched the police punch, choke, kick, stomp on,

1115
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:37,759
Speaker 5: or beat young men with their night sticks. That's what

1116
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 5: the situation was like, It's what it still is like,

1117
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 5: and that's what has to change. So please check out

1118
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:45,320
Speaker 5: the book Too on the Run Future of Life in

1119
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:49,280
Speaker 5: American City by Alice Goffman. And thank you everyone for listening.

1120
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 5: This has been an amazing experience for me, and once

1121
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 5: again you've been listening to Michael Rubin, best known as

1122
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 5: the owner of the Philadelphia seventy six ers. Yeah, one

1123
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 5: of the owners, but the one who's going to bring

1124
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 5: the championship back to Philadelphia. And Meek Mill again, no

1125
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:08,399
Speaker 5: need for any further introduction. Thank you again for being here.

1126
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:09,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for having us.

1127
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:25,320
Speaker 5: Man, don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever

1128
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:28,799
Speaker 5: you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a

1129
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 5: proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope

1130
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,799
Speaker 5: you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and

1131
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 5: helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot

1132
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 5: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd

1133
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:45,240
Speaker 5: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

1134
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:47,840
Speaker 5: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

1135
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 5: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

1136
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:55,759
Speaker 5: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

1137
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 5: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

1138
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 5: for Good Podcast in association with Signal Company Number one