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Speaker 1: So my interview today. My guest today is Demor Smith.

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Speaker 1: He is the former executive director of the NFLPA and D.

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Speaker 1: Before I get to you, I've got a quick little

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Speaker 1: sort of segue here, an explanation as many as some

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Speaker 1: of you know, I got my I've been a political

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Speaker 1: journalist for most of my professional life. For a couple

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Speaker 1: of years, I was the founding managing editor of something

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Speaker 1: that is known today as The Sports Business Journal. Back

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Speaker 1: then it was called the Sports Business Daily, founded in

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four in the middle of all this labor strife.

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Speaker 1: And I remember back then one of the most important

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Speaker 1: books I read to sort of ground me and understanding

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Speaker 1: the business of sports was a book called Lords of

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Speaker 1: the Realm by John hell Yard. He a Wall Street

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Speaker 1: Journal reporter, and it was just incredible history of the

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Speaker 1: business of baseball, both in the in the early days

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Speaker 1: of baseball as well as in the near term. And

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Speaker 1: I always lamented that there wasn't something about the business

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Speaker 1: of the NFL that had that same sort of of

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Speaker 1: of depth and information to it until I read your book, D.

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Speaker 1: Turf Wars. It's certainly a tough book. It is certainly

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Speaker 1: one that you don't pull any punches. But I also think,

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Speaker 1: you know, my son who's going to be majoring is

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Speaker 1: majoring in sports management in college right now. I think

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Speaker 1: this is a book that every sports management in sports

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Speaker 1: marketing professor should assign it as reading. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: the look, there's personality stuff in here, and that's that

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Speaker 1: happens in any book. But to explain how the business

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Speaker 1: of the NFL works, it's something we don't have a big,

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Speaker 1: a clear picture into and and that to me is

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Speaker 1: this for me as a fan and a reporter, is

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Speaker 1: the big service I got out of this book. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I assume you noted that. I think you could say

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Speaker 1: Mark Leibovich's book on the NFL sort of got to

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Speaker 1: it a little bit. But thing with thor of this

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Speaker 1: depth and breadth on the business side, and certainly the

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Speaker 1: NFL would argue a one sided portrayal, fair you know

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Speaker 1: on that front, but you certainly are an insider who

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Speaker 1: is at least helping us shine a light on what

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Speaker 1: goes on inside these inside these boardrooms.

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, that's that's an it's an honor

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Speaker 2: for you to compare me with Halliard's book. I read

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Speaker 2: it a while back. As well. I believe that book

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Speaker 2: and of course Marvin Miller's book Hometball Game. I wanted

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Speaker 2: to write a book about football that was like those

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Speaker 2: two books, and I think the only way that you

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Speaker 2: can do it is certainly to do it in a

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Speaker 2: way that lends yourself to the criticism that it's a

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Speaker 2: one sided story. But I never tried to present anything

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Speaker 2: else other than this is my story, my journey dealing

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Speaker 2: with thirty two billionaires who run the business of football.

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Speaker 1: So let me just start with the basics here. Why

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Speaker 1: this book. Why did you think it was necessary to

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Speaker 1: tell the story?

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Speaker 2: I think so much of I think so much of

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Speaker 2: the business of sport, especially the business of football, is

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Speaker 2: covered in a way where people are sometimes doing their

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Speaker 2: best to keep their access.

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Speaker 1: I think that's the that sports journalism in general. By

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Speaker 1: the way, it's a huge it's a huge challenge. I

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Speaker 1: always say, I think it's harder sometimes being a sports

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Speaker 1: journalist and a political journalist, because I have Freedom of

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Speaker 1: Information Act requests that a government has to at least

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Speaker 1: I don't know if this government will, but at least

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Speaker 1: has to attempt to abide by. There's no such thing

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Speaker 1: in a private enterprise. You know the NFL. You know

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Speaker 1: a team can tell me to pound sand well, and

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Speaker 1: as you know, they often do right. So at the

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Speaker 1: end of the day, I wanted to write it for

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Speaker 1: two reasons. One from you talked about Hailiard's book in

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety.

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Speaker 2: Four, remember, Zach. Same time. Nineteen ninety three was when

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Speaker 2: the National Football League achieved free agency through the Reggie

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Speaker 2: White from mcne McNeil case. And I think one I

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Speaker 2: wanted to write it because this is my story of

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Speaker 2: dealing with thirty one billionaires. But the other one is

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Speaker 2: I started off the book with this frame of mind

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Speaker 2: that the National Football League was a microcosm of the

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Speaker 2: way the country is being run. And I came away

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Speaker 2: with this concern that the country is in a lot

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Speaker 2: of ways being run the way the NFL is run,

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Speaker 2: and this idea that there are a group of well meaning, loving,

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Speaker 2: grandfatherly billionaires who were simply out there to look after

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Speaker 2: your and my best interest. And it's somehow knee jerk

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Speaker 2: or almost curated belief that these oligarchs are the best

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Speaker 2: people to run our democracy and to control the levers

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Speaker 2: of the press, healthcare, our access to information. I find

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Speaker 2: that troubling, and so it was a good opportunity for

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Speaker 2: me to sit down and tell my story but also

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Speaker 2: shed a light on the exact way that these guys

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Speaker 2: think and operate, because at times it is just utterly petty.

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Speaker 1: So it was interesting when I followed. I remember when

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Speaker 1: you were picked, and it was it was a surprise

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Speaker 1: because you weren't a former player obviously. You know. It's funny,

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Speaker 1: you know, Gene Upshaw's legacy really does depend on where

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Speaker 1: you sit. Yep, you know. I looked at it through

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Speaker 1: the prism of all the other sports unions and thought,

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Speaker 1: why is the NFL Sports Union so weak? That's all

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Speaker 1: I ever thought about for my entire sort of fandom.

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Speaker 1: I never now if you look at Upshaw's time sort

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Speaker 1: of and you and you have blinders on, you don't

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Speaker 1: see how the other leagues manage their owners and how

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Speaker 1: the other players associations worked, you would say, well, look,

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Speaker 1: he incrementally got a lot done right. They did finally

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Speaker 1: get free agency, they did finally get some you know,

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Speaker 1: better revenue sharing and things like that. But that's you know,

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Speaker 1: and so to me, you're hiring felt like this was

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Speaker 1: the player saying wit enough is enough? We need somebody

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Speaker 1: who it doesn't matter. In some ways, it might be

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Speaker 1: better if they didn't quote whar the Shield that that

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Speaker 1: was the mindset of the players at that time. And

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Speaker 1: I think that sounds like you were skeptical you were

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Speaker 1: going to get hired because you assumed that was that

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Speaker 1: was the biggest problem you faced, and in fact it

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Speaker 1: turned out that was the best feature.

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Speaker 2: I think. I think that's right. I think, to a

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Speaker 2: certain extent, the players back in two thousand and nine,

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Speaker 2: we're looking for, as we would say, you know, if

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Speaker 2: you love, if you love the Godfather reference a war

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Speaker 2: time Kencigiliary. Yeah, and you know. But at as true

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Speaker 2: as I think that is, I think there's two caveats

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Speaker 2: that are or maybe three caveats that are incredibly important.

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Speaker 2: One first, those guys woke up one day and Gene Upshaw,

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Speaker 2: who had run the union for as long as many

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Speaker 2: of them were alive, was dead. And I think that

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Speaker 2: that made that group of Drew Brees, Brian Dawkins, Mike Rabol,

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Speaker 2: Jeff Saturday, Dominique Foxworth, Kevin Maway. I think that made

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Speaker 2: those guys certainly older from a mature standpoint, and many

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Speaker 2: of the leaders that I had to work with later

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Speaker 2: number two. You know, Chuck, we were headed into a

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Speaker 2: war and and I think the players made a decision

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Speaker 2: that they wanted somebody from the outside who understood war

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Speaker 2: and maybe someone who didn't necessarily care about relationships. But

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Speaker 2: the last thing I will say is this. You know,

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Speaker 2: Gene went through three strikes, you know, two as a

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Speaker 2: player and one as the executive director. And I can

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Speaker 2: I can't from an empathetic standpoint, I can't sit here

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Speaker 2: and second guess a guy who went through three strikes

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Speaker 2: where the players voted to go on strike only for

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Speaker 2: those players to then cross the picket line and have

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Speaker 2: that strike fail, and then the kicker he has to

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Speaker 2: pick up the phone and call Paul Taglibu and beg

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Speaker 2: to come back to work.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, after after Joe Montana like basically pulled the rug

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Speaker 1: out from under it.

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Speaker 2: And so if you're the ex I mean, if you're

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Speaker 2: the executive director of.

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Speaker 1: And we're going back this is eighty seven, correct, this

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Speaker 1: is eighty eight, Yeah, this is eighty one seven back

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Speaker 1: one more, one more, eighty two, eighty seven, ninety one two, right,

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Speaker 1: eighty two, eighty seven to ninety one.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: So stabs were in eighty seven to a strike shortened season.

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Speaker 2: Correct. Correct, So you know from a from where Jean

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Speaker 2: sat and I think that he was both a legend

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Speaker 2: of a man in reality in all ways, this might

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Speaker 2: be a person who understood the players better than the

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Speaker 2: players understood themselves, and realized that his only path was

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Speaker 2: incremental wins. Yep. And and I guess the last thing

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Speaker 2: I would say is I came into the job with

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Speaker 2: you know, a different set of I sound like a

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Speaker 2: Liam Neilson movie, with a different set of skills.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I know, you're a litigator, you're a you're you

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Speaker 1: take on big corporations, but you're also at a big

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Speaker 1: law firm and all that stuff, right, Like that's a

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Speaker 1: and it's just a yeah, it's a different skill set.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious. The longer you went, the more did your

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Speaker 1: admiration grow for upshaw Per.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that Gene. I think that Gene was

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Speaker 2: one of the best labor leaders in history. I think

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Speaker 2: that when you look at the twenty years of litigation

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Speaker 2: from nineteen seventy one to nineteen ninety three to get

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Speaker 2: free agency, I mean I did fifteen years. It felt

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Speaker 2: like five hundred years. But you know, for a and also,

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Speaker 2: I guess I would say this. I came into the

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Speaker 2: job in two thousand and nine, Gene played under a

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Speaker 2: regime of no free agency. And we think about those

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Speaker 2: Raiders dynasties. We think about the Steelers dynasty, we think

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Speaker 2: about the Dallas Cowboy dynasty. I mean, Chuck, Remember those

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Speaker 2: teams were dynasties because nobody could leave. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 2: so at the end of the day, I look at

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Speaker 2: a guy who was stuck in a system that was

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Speaker 2: I can argue, far more of a plantation system than

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Speaker 2: it is now, and a person who was economically stuck

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Speaker 2: in a system that hamstrung the union in ways that

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Speaker 2: I couldn't imagine. And we're also talking about a guy

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Speaker 2: who went through the Quarterbacks club controversy. If you remember

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Speaker 2: when the National Football League went around the country and

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Speaker 2: actually gave quarterbacks money to pull themselves out of the

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Speaker 2: group licensing right to cripple the union. So you know,

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Speaker 2: I had a tough run.

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Speaker 1: You know, I mean, he dealt with a lot, right

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Speaker 1: he was build. I want you to tell the story

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Speaker 1: because this was shocking to me of how the NFL

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Speaker 1: tried to stop your hiring and by essentially hiring the

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Speaker 1: law firm you were still working at at the time

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Speaker 1: for other work. Because it's Tommy Box that you were.

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Speaker 1: This legendary Washington guy, Tommy Boggs, the son of Hail Bogs.

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Speaker 1: This is Kokie Roberts, brother the late Cookie Roberts.

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Speaker 2: You had.

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Speaker 1: Her mother served in Congress after Hall bogs Is plane

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Speaker 1: crashed in Alaska. Her mother was the ambassador of the Vatican. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: a legendary family of sort of Washington power brokers. First

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Speaker 1: of all, I didn't know the story about the invention

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Speaker 1: that basically Hail Bogs agreeing to the AFL NFL merger

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Speaker 1: allowed the New Orleans Saints to be born. That that's

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Speaker 1: like a good congressman he had. He used he did

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Speaker 1: old fashioned horse trading, which is, you want my support

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Speaker 1: from this, go put a team in New Orleans.

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Speaker 2: Look on percent and you know Tom as The only

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Speaker 2: thing I can add to that is, you know, by far,

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Speaker 2: tom was probably the most powerful Democratic lobbyist to ever

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Speaker 2: walk the face of the planet.

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Speaker 1: You know, for a period of time, no doubt, eighties

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Speaker 1: and nineties he.

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Speaker 2: Was the guy. So I you know, I'm it finally

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Speaker 2: becomes public that I'm a candidate for job. I come

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Speaker 2: into the office and everybody knows that the Tom's cigars

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Speaker 2: and drank scotch uh. And that was before nine thirty

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Speaker 2: in the morning, and he knocked.

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Speaker 1: His secretary of champions as they say, breakfast of champions.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I get a knock on my door. His assistant

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Speaker 2: comes by. Tom wants to see you right away, and

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Speaker 2: of course you know that that is just not good news,

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Speaker 2: not good news. At ten.

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Speaker 1: Clearly somebody called him and is pissed off about something,

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Speaker 1: and you're about to find out who it is.

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Speaker 2: You want to get back at me. I want to

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Speaker 2: get Tom around eleven thirty. You don't want nine thirty,

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Speaker 2: ten o'clock in the morning. Tom. So I walk into

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Speaker 2: his office, sit down. There's a you know, fog of

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Speaker 2: cigar smoke, and he says, hey, do you know you

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Speaker 2: have to realize that we got a call last night

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Speaker 2: from the NFL and they want they want Paton Bogs

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Speaker 2: to be the chief lobbyist for the NFL. And immediately

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Speaker 2: it made sense to me that, by the way, a

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Speaker 2: clever move.

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Speaker 1: I just got to say, I'm weirdly impressed. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we we give Craig it to where credit is due.

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Speaker 1: It's a brilliant move because why it's a brilliant move.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like it gets me in a trick bag.

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Speaker 1: One.

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Speaker 2: I haven't been elected to the job yet, so the

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Speaker 2: elections in whatever it is in March. I think this

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Speaker 2: was maybe early maybe early to mid January. So for

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Speaker 2: the league to make it a pitch to hire Patent Bogs,

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Speaker 2: it puts me in a trick bag because either I

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Speaker 2: have to step down from the firm, in which case

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Speaker 2: I don't have a job because hopefully I'm getting elected

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Speaker 2: in March, but who knows. If pattent Bugs keeps the

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Speaker 2: NFL as a client and I stay, I have to

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Speaker 2: pull myself out of running for the job. So it

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Speaker 2: is literally the almost the Sophie's choice of what do

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Speaker 2: you do? And for a lobbying firm the size of

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Speaker 2: Patent Bogs literally the crown jewel is representing the NFL.

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Speaker 2: I mean, they're probably one of the top ten to

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Speaker 2: fifty teen clients in the world to represent. So I

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Speaker 2: sit there, you know, I basically swallow, you know, whatever

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Speaker 2: is in my mouth, and I'm trying to remain as

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Speaker 2: calm as possible while.

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Speaker 1: Tom the way, Tommy Box close friends with Tom Benson,

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Speaker 1: the owner of the Saints. Oh grow up together, right,

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Speaker 1: They're very tied in so these these are personal relationships

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Speaker 1: for him. Anyway, keep going.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I never went to the hunting lodge

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Speaker 2: with with Tom because frankly, I never thought I would

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Speaker 2: make it back. But but the flip side is, you know,

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Speaker 2: Tom Benson is his childhood friend and he and he says,

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Speaker 2: Tom called me about this offer. Indeed, it's a great

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Speaker 2: offer for the firm. So I try not to look

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Speaker 2: absolutely terrified, but of course terrified. And so I turned

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Speaker 2: to Tom and I said, hey, look, I understand this

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Speaker 2: is an important client for the firm. I'll step down immediately.

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Speaker 2: Tom chomps on and the cigar looks at me, and

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Speaker 2: he says, I know, it's a family show. He says, well,

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Speaker 2: you know I told Tom to go f himself.

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Speaker 1: There you go. He knew exactly what you I mean.

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Speaker 1: If anybody knows hardball tactics, it's Tommy Box.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't. First of all, I wouldn't have been qualified

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Speaker 2: for the job without working for Tom Boggs, and I

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Speaker 2: certainly wouldn't have been able to steer my way through

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Speaker 2: the mind fields of Washington in the National Football League

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Speaker 2: without Tom's guidance. Brilliant, just a brilliant guy. But it

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Speaker 2: doesn't work. You get, you get Tom's backing.

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Speaker 1: On all of this, and you I imagine you being accepted.

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Speaker 1: On one hand, the players voted for you because they

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Speaker 1: under they they accepted the premise that you were. This

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Speaker 1: was going to be a war and you needed somebody

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Speaker 1: maybe you know, you might not understand how they live

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Speaker 1: their lives, but they that you understood how a boardroom work.

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Speaker 1: But how hard was it to connect with the players?

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Speaker 2: You know, honestly, Tom, not not really. It just wasn't

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Speaker 2: you know, Chuck, It just wasn't hard. First of all,

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Speaker 2: I only have, you know, I think I only have

295
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Speaker 2: one stick, right, you know, whether I'm standing up in

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Speaker 2: front of a jury or standing up in a boardroom,

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Speaker 2: I try to make sure that no one in the

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Speaker 2: room knows more about the facts or the history, or

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Speaker 2: the law, or as Tom would say, the you know

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Speaker 2: how Washington works. I tried to make sure that no

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Speaker 2: one understood that better than me, Chuck, And that was

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Speaker 2: my job to understand it. Nobody better than me. And second,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to stand in front of you and tell

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Speaker 2: the truth. And I think that the players back then

305
00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:37,280
Speaker 2: were they didn't understand at first the significance of the

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Speaker 2: National Football League pulling out of the collective bargaining agreement.

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Speaker 2: They really didn't appreciate the significance of the NFL trying

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Speaker 2: to get the judge, the federal judge who had overseen

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Speaker 2: the the collective bargaining agreement for up until that point

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Speaker 2: almost twenty twenty five, maybe thirty years. But you and

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Speaker 2: I know, well up until present company, you and I

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Speaker 2: both know that anytime someone makes a play to try

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Speaker 2: to remove a federal judge, it is literally the last

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Speaker 2: card in the deck. And at the end, when I

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Speaker 2: told the players, hey, look at this is just what

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Speaker 2: I see them doing. We either decide that we're going

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Speaker 2: to be in for a war or we're not. And again,

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Speaker 2: I honestly believe that it had less to do with

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Speaker 2: me and more to do with the quality of the

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Speaker 2: people that I was doing the job with. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know, when you're standing up in front of the

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Speaker 2: New Orleans Saints and Drew Brees says, this is our guy,

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Speaker 2: or you're in you know, Boston, New England, and Mike

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Speaker 2: Vrabel and Tom Brady, You're saying, this is our guy.

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Speaker 2: It means a lot. I'm not sure they particularly loved

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Speaker 2: d Smith. I think that they did love the fact

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Speaker 2: that all I did was try to go tintoe to

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Speaker 2: the line, tell them the truth and if a war

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Speaker 2: was gonna be the only thing that we had, make

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Speaker 2: the other side pack a lunch.

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Speaker 1: So I was thinking about this a couple of weeks ago.

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Speaker 1: I knew I was gonna be interviewing you, and Rob

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Speaker 1: Manfred was talking, was going meeting with various He's been

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Speaker 1: meeting with players because they have their own what's going

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Speaker 1: to be Look there, it's coming, it's coming, and they

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Speaker 1: have you know, Baseball's problem is they actually don't have

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Speaker 1: the socialism of the NFL. Right, they don't share revenue

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Speaker 1: in the same way the NFL is is one of

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Speaker 1: the wealthiest socialist organizations we we we have in the

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Speaker 1: United States. So number number one there, number one. So

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Speaker 1: but when Bryce Harper basically was willing to tell Rob

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Speaker 1: Manfred to f off, yeah, I was thinking, would Patrick

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Speaker 1: Mahomes do that?

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Speaker 2: You know what? I think he would?

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Speaker 1: You know what?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so, I mean there was a moment,

347
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Speaker 2: you know, there's so much that's on the cutting room

348
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Speaker 2: floor of Turf Wars. But in the ramp up to

349
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Speaker 2: twenty eleven, you know, I was hitting every team twice

350
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Speaker 2: during that year, talking to players about the upcoming lockout.

351
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Speaker 2: It didn't end up in the book, but Roger did

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Speaker 2: his own road tour, and I think he only made

353
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Speaker 2: it to Team six because I vividly remember him going

354
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Speaker 2: to Cleveland and running into I think Joe Thomas, and

355
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Speaker 2: the meeting went south. And then I remember that he

356
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Speaker 2: went to Indianapolis because for some reason he thought that

357
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Speaker 2: that might be a safe place for him to do

358
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Speaker 2: a meeting, given you know, Peyton Manning is a is

359
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Speaker 2: a country gentleman, right.

360
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Speaker 1: Right, He's going to make everybody feel good, right.

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Speaker 2: He ran into Indianapolis, and I'll never forget Jeff Saturday

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Speaker 2: picking up the phone and calling me on my cell phone,

363
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Speaker 2: you know, kept calling, kept calling, kept calling, and I

364
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Speaker 2: pick up the phone. He goes d man. I had

365
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Speaker 2: to get up and walk Roger out of the room.

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Speaker 2: The whole thing went south. So to your point, do

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Speaker 2: I think players could do? I think the guys like

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Speaker 2: Patrick Mahomes could. The proof in the pudding is whether

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Speaker 2: they actually will and I think that's one thing that

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Speaker 2: I have always admired, you know, through Tony Clark, who's

371
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Speaker 2: a good friend of mine. I got to spend time

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Speaker 2: with Marvin Miller, who I have to credit with being

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Speaker 2: the guy that got my head screwed on straight so quickly. Marvin,

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Speaker 2: I mean happy to tell them explain.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was just going to say, explain that. Were

376
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Speaker 1: you ready to go in? Guns a blazing?

377
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:50,280
Speaker 2: And yeah, well, Marvin. You know, shortly after two thousand

378
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 2: and nine, I called over to the former executive director

379
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Speaker 2: of the MLB Players Association, just a wonderful man named

380
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Speaker 2: Mike Wiener, who unfortunately passed away, and I asked, Mike,

381
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:02,960
Speaker 2: is there any way that he could put me in

382
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Speaker 2: touch with Marvin Miller. And Marvin had had recently lost

383
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Speaker 2: his wife. Took the train to New York. The car

384
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Speaker 2: drops me off in front of his apartment. I have

385
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 2: his book, you know, that's just torn up, and I've

386
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,399
Speaker 2: read it so many times and I've got little yellow

387
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,320
Speaker 2: tabs in it because I just want to ask him

388
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,400
Speaker 2: so many questions. Walked in and if you remember Marvin,

389
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Speaker 2: Marvin was a really slight man, not you know, so

390
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 2: we walk in, you know, he shuts the door. He

391
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:33,679
Speaker 2: asked me to you know what, I like to have

392
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Speaker 2: some tea. I cannot stand tea. I just you like

393
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Speaker 2: you're a coffee guy.

394
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Speaker 1: I could feel it, your red book coffee guy.

395
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Speaker 2: You put sugar in it and then you pourt and

396
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 2: I said, sure, I had some tea. He sat down.

397
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Speaker 2: He sits down on the sofa. I sit down in

398
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Speaker 2: the chair. I took the book next to the chair.

399
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,200
Speaker 2: And the first thing he says to me is, why

400
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 2: on God's earth did you take this job? This might

401
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 2: be the dumbest thing I've ever seen anybody do.

402
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, you were going to be US attorney in d C.

403
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:06,640
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, that's a whole different career path,

404
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 1: not to that, you know, right, I'm sure that's what

405
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,640
Speaker 1: he's thinking. You're you're walking away from that. You're potentially

406
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 1: a future attorney general. You know what are you doing? Right?

407
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 2: He lit into me for about fifteen minutes. It's a

408
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 2: union with failed strikes. You think that you're going to

409
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,160
Speaker 2: be able to talk to the owners as businessmen. They

410
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:29,359
Speaker 2: will never respect you for a bunch of reasons. And

411
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 2: I don't care about your law background. They don't care

412
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,439
Speaker 2: about your log background, they're going to eat you alive.

413
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 2: This thing went on for fifteen twenty minutes. I asked

414
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 2: him a couple of questions about if you were me,

415
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,920
Speaker 2: what would you think about and he said I would

416
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 2: think about finding another job and yes, And then it

417
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,360
Speaker 2: was so brutal that at the end I just simply said, hey,

418
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 2: mister Miller, you know, thank you, you know for your time,

419
00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 2: and I picked up the book. I wanted him to

420
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Speaker 2: sign it. I was afraid to ask wow and walk

421
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,479
Speaker 2: out the door. And I got in the car. I

422
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,679
Speaker 2: called Mike Wiener back and I said, I had my

423
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 2: meeting with Marvin and literally, you know, he chuckles and said,

424
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:17,399
Speaker 2: how did it go? And I don't think it went well.

425
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 2: And two days later I got a call back from

426
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Speaker 2: from Marvin and he said, anytime you want to meet,

427
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 2: I'm willing to meet. And so I met with Marvin

428
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 2: for about another eight to ten times before he died.

429
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 2: And he was the one that got my head literally

430
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,879
Speaker 2: squared on straight that these people that you were going

431
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 2: to deal with are some of the worst people you

432
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 2: will ever meet in your life. They're petty, they're small,

433
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 2: they fight with each with each other right, and they

434
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 2: care more about control. And he taught me that at

435
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 2: the end of the day, while money is always important

436
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 2: to them, control is more important than money. And he said,

437
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,120
Speaker 2: if you were up for it, wage war.

438
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 1: So if if money was the only thing that motivated them,

439
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 1: they wouldn't buy an NFL team. It's actually not the

440
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,199
Speaker 1: best investment. It's a good nothing wrong with it. But

441
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: you know, Bill Simmons likes to say this. He says,

442
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,199
Speaker 1: these rich guys they buy teams so people know who

443
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 1: their name is.

444
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 2: It's a toy.

445
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, they buy. It's sort of like who would Robert

446
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: Kraft be if he didn't known the Patriots? Just some

447
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 1: rich guy that you don't know the name some company

448
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: you know, or Arthur Blank. You know, if you if

449
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 1: you study the founding of Home Depot, maybe you'd know

450
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 1: the name. But if you own you know who the

451
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: hell's Jerry Jones? Right? Do you know any other oil

452
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 1: and gas guys?

453
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 2: Right?

454
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 1: And you know. But once you buy a team, you

455
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 1: become famous.

456
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 2: And the flip side of it is they love the

457
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 2: fact that it's a country club that even the richest

458
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 2: person in the world can't get into.

459
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 1: There's only thirty one, there's only thirty one trophies you

460
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 1: can buy. There's only thirty one entries. Maybe someday they'll

461
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: expand another two, you know, but you know, the membership

462
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: committee hasn't yeah to be asked, right, yeah, you.

463
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 2: Have to be asked. And literally, these aren't. These aren't.

464
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 2: It's not simply a I have a ton of money,

465
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 2: I can afford a team. And to your point, you know,

466
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 2: until recently that they decided to change the model in

467
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 2: order to allow private equity to come.

468
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: In, well, because human beings can't afford this on their

469
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: own these days. But anyway, and these.

470
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,159
Speaker 2: Teams don't sell, right, I mean, an NFL team or

471
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 2: a professional team franchise only comes up for sell what

472
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 2: every ten years, every eight you know. So for them,

473
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 2: here they are, they are now in the country club.

474
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 2: They own this large, mega, multi billion dollar company that

475
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 2: none of them want to sell because the day that

476
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 2: they do, no one cares who they are. So the

477
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 2: way that they can now incrementally make gobs of money,

478
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 2: even more gobs of money, because we both know no

479
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 2: amount of money is enough, is to bring in private

480
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,400
Speaker 2: equity so that they can get three or four iterations

481
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 2: of sales without ever having to sell the corpus right.

482
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: They're trying to pull the equity out of it so

483
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: they make money without aving. Let me ask this, remember

484
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 1: Mark Cuban saying this when he first got into the NBA,

485
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 1: that there was sort of a there was some generational differences.

486
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 1: Younger owners were a little bit different than the older owners.

487
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 1: There aren't a lot of it. The only time you

488
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 1: get young owners in the NFL is when the old

489
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 1: owner dies and you get a son or a daughter.

490
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 1: And yet that does seem to at least and can

491
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: improve things slightly, but put the owners in some various groups.

492
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 1: For me, who are the most pragmatic realistic owners to

493
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: deal with?

494
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 2: I mean from a pragmatism standpoint, you know, by far

495
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 2: Robert Craft. You know, Robert is a very very tough

496
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 2: guide in the go siate with polity.

497
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,479
Speaker 1: Politically savvy, he figures out like you know, he he oh,

498
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: you're going to hit him for this? Well he then

499
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: suddenly he does something over here, and you're like, oh,

500
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 1: you know, he's very he's very savvy about his own

501
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 1: public image.

502
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 2: I learned as much. I learned as much from Robert. Uh.

503
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 2: The only other person I learned more from was Tombocks.

504
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 2: You know, Robert put Craft in a and how's your

505
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 2: personal relationship?

506
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 1: Is it pretty good?

507
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 2: It's okay, I mean every now it's.

508
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: Only so much, right, you guys so much And and.

509
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 2: Look, you know, I think that he and I definitely

510
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 2: developed a special relationship during my time at the nfl PA.

511
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 2: There were things that, frankly, he did that I'm sure

512
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 2: he would chalk up to business that maybe.

513
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: You and him were on the same side during the Flakegate,

514
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: so it a weird way. Did that help your relationship?

515
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 2: Well, we were up until the end and we weren't

516
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 2: on opposite sides. But you know, with the people listening

517
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 2: at home, you know, Craft had originally decided that he

518
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 2: was going to sue the league over their their ham

519
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 2: fisted management of the flategate, but at the end of

520
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 2: the day, Robert dropped that lawsuit. And so you know,

521
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 2: I guess there were things certainly that he did and

522
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 2: he would chalk it up to its business and that

523
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 2: was one of them. And did it upset me? Yes?

524
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 2: Did it ruin our friendship? No, I'm sure there's some

525
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 2: things that I've done that I chalked up to business,

526
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 2: and he would consider that to be something that that

527
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 2: wasn't affront to him. It wasn't meant that way. But

528
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 2: no one taught me that this was more that this

529
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 2: was such a complicated and he has he has a

530
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 2: he had a line that I never forgot d This

531
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 2: is not a straight line business. And so this idea

532
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 2: that somehow you're going to walk in and you're gonna say, Okay,

533
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 2: there's money here, money here, money here, interest here, interest here,

534
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 2: interest here, and there's a straight line that runs between

535
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 2: all of them and the National Football League, it does not.

536
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 2: I mean that tension between Jerry Jones and Robert Kraft

537
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 2: is a real tension. You asked about the categories, the

538
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 2: tension between what, at least a while ago, we would

539
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 2: consider to be younger owners, and back then Dan Snyder

540
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 2: at one time was a younger owner, believe it or not,

541
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 2: Jerry Jones at one time was a younger owner.

542
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: I guess David Tepper would be the young owner today,

543
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 1: is that he would.

544
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 2: And there is a tension between those owners and what

545
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 2: we would call the generational Rooney's Mara's hunts of the world. Look,

546
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 2: I remember vividly, you know, during during the ramp up

547
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 2: to the lockout, I went down to see Jerry, who is.

548
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: Tough.

549
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 2: Tough to say the least. I think Jerry is brilliant.

550
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 2: He'll be the first person to tell you that as well.

551
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 2: But he is. He's really smart. He knows how to

552
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: to generate revenue as players representing the players. We loved that.

553
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 2: He has one other redeeming quality. He is funny. He's hysterical.

554
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 2: He does make me laugh. I don't understand the jokes,

555
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 2: but I love it. But the one thing that that

556
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 2: I will tell you that created tension very early and

557
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 2: in his sort of ascension as a powerful leader, he

558
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 2: hated the fact that there were so many owners who

559
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 2: he believed were quote unquote freeloaders.

560
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: People know you you put him in there in the

561
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 1: book and he's right, like Mike Brown, I mean, you know,

562
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 1: and the Davises they've always been or look at Alex Spanos,

563
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 1: Ralph Wilson, I I get exactly. And you know this

564
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: is this is a problem Baseball has they have. They

565
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 1: have just some terrorior owners and that don't know what

566
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: they're doing.

567
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 2: It was. It was such a point of contention for

568
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 2: Jerry that literally before we were locked out, I authorized

569
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 2: a grievance to be filed against the other owners because

570
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 2: many of the owners had not adhered to the supplemental

571
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 2: revenue sharing provision under their own contract. So let's put

572
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 2: this perspective. I used our money to sue owners who

573
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 2: weren't sharing money with other owners. Now people would say

574
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 2: that that's that's crazy, but you know, Tom Boggs would

575
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 2: tell you that's smart.

576
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 1: No, you're trying to divide and conquer. Remind us. Look,

577
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: you know I always said I knew Schneider was finally cooked.

578
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 1: When somebody noted he was withholding a visiting ticket revenue

579
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: from the other owners, I'm like, oh, we go where

580
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 1: that's the more That's the first rule of fight club, right, right?

581
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 1: Do not you know? And that was like literally that

582
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: report leaks and Snyder's gone in like a month. Well,

583
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: I mean, and if you.

584
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 2: Remember after the cheerleaders stuff, after all.

585
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: That didn't get it gone right, none of that other

586
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: stuff taking money away from Jerry Jones and those guys.

587
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 1: Here we go third.

588
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 2: Rail, third rail, and look, this is a group of

589
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 2: people that the best description or the way that I

590
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 2: finally got my head around thinking about it was it

591
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 2: is a feudal kingdom, a complete feudal kingdom, and prince

592
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 2: Valiant is Roger. His job is to try to keep

593
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 2: them together to certainly ride out and fight their battles.

594
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 2: But these are feudal lords who treat their teams as

595
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 2: city states.

596
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: You know. I was thinking about Roger versus Roselle. Yeah,

597
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 1: and I think that one disadvantage Roger has that Roselle.

598
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 1: The advantage Roselle had is Roselle made the owners rich.

599
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: The owners made Roger rich, and meaning like, you know,

600
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,719
Speaker 1: the structure was already in place. Roselle took, you know,

601
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 1: was able to create, you know, see a vision and say, hey, guys,

602
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 1: working this together, we're going to become so much bigger.

603
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: And so it allowed him to have the real influence.

604
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: And I do think when you negotiated with Roselle, he

605
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: would then force the owners to accept the agreement. I

606
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: don't I feel like he was not as controlled by

607
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: the owners. Fast forward to today. I mean, this is

608
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:33,839
Speaker 1: known and Roger fascinates me because I see the son

609
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: of a senator who confronted power and I see a

610
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: guy who sort of doesn't confront power, Right, I find

611
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 1: it interesting, But then again, what's the lesson fifteen year

612
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 1: old Roger Goodell saw he saw that his father stood

613
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: up to the man and the man defeated him. And

614
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 1: I've always wondered what impact did that have on him?

615
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 1: But in either direction, is Roger simply weaker because the

616
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 1: owners have more leverage over him than say Roselle, who

617
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: truly probably had more leverage over the owners.

618
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I think I think all three were different.

619
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 2: I think I think Tagliaboo was in the middle between,

620
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 2: you know, Roselle and Roger.

621
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: I've been a gentleman, I've I've met with him a

622
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: few times, and he's such a gentleman.

623
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 2: Always a gentleman, always a gentleman. Now that said, you know,

624
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 2: the guy who was behind the Quarterbacks club of paying players.

625
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,720
Speaker 1: To the out of the Yeah, just business.

626
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 2: But I guess, you know, you know, and I talk

627
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 2: about it in Turf Wars because at a time when

628
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 2: I was trying to figure out Roger that that that

629
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 2: history of his dad taking over Bobby Kennedy c and

630
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 2: and going to the library and reading his father's papers.

631
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 1: Confronting Nixon, standing up, uh you know, against the Vietnam War.

632
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: I mean, these were these were bold moves.

633
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 2: Oh and and at a tough time, you know, and

634
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 2: and the book is around here, you know, somewhere. The

635
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 2: only book that he wrote was was Political Prisoners in America.

636
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 2: I mean, think about that, you know, with the forward

637
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,840
Speaker 2: being to my friend Richard Nixon, you know who ultimately

638
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: you know, politically cuts his throat, right. I think, you know,

639
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 2: I think Roger I wanted to write a book. Obviously

640
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 2: that was that was fair. I think at the end

641
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 2: of the day, Roger ended up better in the book

642
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 2: than I ever thought he would. I think that he

643
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 2: has a very tough job. But I think that there

644
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 2: was this, lack of a better word, I think that

645
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 2: there was this arc that started with Roselle, that went

646
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 2: through Tagliaboo and ultimately ended up with with Roger, where

647
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 2: the owners decided that they wanted to control the levers

648
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 2: of the league a little bit more than the commissioner.

649
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 2: Now that said, I mean, I would argue that between

650
00:36:56,239 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 2: Roselle Tagliaboo, I would like I'd argue that Rose that

651
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 2: Roger has made them far richer than either of those

652
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 2: two because he is talented when it comes to bringing

653
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 2: out television revenue and structuring the game in which you know,

654
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:21,439
Speaker 2: these networks pay more money for the NFL than they

655
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 2: make on the commercials that show the game. Yeah, and

656
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 2: that that's a skill. And at the end of the day,

657
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 2: I mean, let's be blunt. Would Mike Brown be a

658
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 2: multi billionaire without Roger? No? No, no, We're left to

659
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 2: his own devices.

660
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 1: No.

661
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 2: So I look at it this way. At the end

662
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 2: of the year, the owners pay Roger about two point

663
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 2: one million dollars a year to be billionaires. It's not

664
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:52,760
Speaker 2: a bad return on your investment.

665
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: No, And he takes all the others. I mean, ask this,

666
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: if there were thirty two green Bay Packers community on franchises,

667
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,879
Speaker 1: what would the job be like if there were thirty

668
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:04,760
Speaker 1: two green Bay Packers?

669
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 2: Those cats are going both ways on the field. I mean, okay,

670
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 2: there were thirty two ownership structures.

671
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: Because I've always said this, I feel like sports owners

672
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 1: they don't they don't own a thing. They're custodians. The

673
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,240
Speaker 1: only reason these teams have value is because the fans

674
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 1: give them value.

675
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 2: Right. So it's a weird.

676
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 1: Thing, right, It's not like I'm buying business, which that

677
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,319
Speaker 1: makes this widget over here and all this stuff. And

678
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: so the Packers ownership structure, to me, is actually a

679
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 1: correct way to do it. The community should own it,

680
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 1: and there should be a board and all of those things.

681
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 1: If that is how more NFL teams were structured, I

682
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:44,839
Speaker 1: think the New Orleans Saints may be headed in that

683
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 1: direction and this strange way that they're done. You told

684
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 1: me the Chicago Bears went that route. It would completely

685
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 1: shock me considering that this is that that's a team

686
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 1: that's never been sold. Right, it's still the same FINGI

687
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: own business. Right, it would make a lot of sense

688
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 1: sense to me. What would that look like? And what

689
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 1: would the league look like? Under that? Would that would

690
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: be a more powerful commissioner out of that?

691
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 2: I think it would be a more powerful commissioner. I

692
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 2: also think it would be you know, spitballing off the top.

693
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,320
Speaker 2: I think that it would be a more powerful union

694
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 2: because you would have thirty two teams that are structured

695
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 2: more like a corporation with a public board and ten

696
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 2: k's and ten qs and annual reports.

697
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 1: And the only reason you guys know half the stuff

698
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 1: you know about the league is because the Green Bay

699
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 1: Packers has to report it publicly.

700
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 2: You do, and we extrapolate, and so look, I think

701
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 2: that would be a completely different animal. Do I think

702
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:47,240
Speaker 2: it'll ever happen. No, I think that these have become

703
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:55,240
Speaker 2: such profitable centers that you can, to your point earlier,

704
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 2: you have the ability to socialize your cost and privatize

705
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 2: your way. And I don't know of any other institutions

706
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 2: in America where a you know, like like Loew's and

707
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 2: Home Depot, the two largest hardware stores in the country,

708
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 2: are allowed to merge. They are allowed to basically eliminate

709
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 2: every threat of competition that has ever existed to the

710
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 2: NFL has been eliminated brutally because nobody else has an

711
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 2: anti trust exemption. No one else is covered by the

712
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 2: Sports Broadcasting Act, right, which allows those entities to negotiate

713
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 2: unitary television deals, which really kind of separates it from

714
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 2: baseball as well. Right. And then at the end, you know,

715
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 2: up until recently, the NFL Head office was a five

716
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 2: oh one c six non profit. So, you know, I

717
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 2: start off with the book with this, you know, rhetorical question.

718
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 2: If you and I, Okay, you and I are different.

719
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 2: If the average person was blessed with a business that

720
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 2: generated twenty five billion dollars a year and you answered

721
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:10,919
Speaker 2: to no one, what would you do? And I think

722
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 2: these people do it. I think at the end of

723
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:19,399
Speaker 2: the day, they create a system where there is no

724
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 2: I mean, I think the best example that I can

725
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 2: come up with is, you know, I wrote an article

726
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 2: for Yale about the Rooney rule a few years ago

727
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 2: because it is basically a joke. You know, on any level,

728
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 2: it's a joke. It's the only rule that the National

729
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 2: Football League has ever placed upon itself that it doesn't follow.

730
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, they have to follow the running rule unless

731
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:44,880
Speaker 1: they have an exception to the running roule, Right, and

732
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:46,359
Speaker 1: we all know they break the.

733
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 2: Rule, right with Sean Paige.

734
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:49,399
Speaker 1: I mean, the most recent example, I think is Sean

735
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 1: Payton in Denver, right yeah, where the owner already knew

736
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 1: they were going to hire, and they're like, well, okay,

737
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: how do we go around this? How do we get

738
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 1: around this?

739
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:01,280
Speaker 2: Per So you have this organization that that answers answers

740
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 2: to no one. And nonetheless, when you look at the

741
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 2: Rooney rule, you can make a prima facia case that

742
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,720
Speaker 2: there is discrimination going on in the National Football League.

743
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 2: Yet you and I know that not one attorney general

744
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 2: has ever applied their own anti discrimination laws against the

745
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 2: team that resides in their state. So these are a

746
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 2: group of people who have become extremely comfortable with being

747
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:32,800
Speaker 2: above the law.

748
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: Are they too popular? Because you know, you and I

749
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,359
Speaker 1: both know. Do I think Attorney's General would go after

750
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 1: the NBA if there was a rule like this being

751
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:41,879
Speaker 1: oh well mismanaged.

752
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 2: Good question answers, Yes, Yeah.

753
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 1: Any other sport like football right now is politically untouchable

754
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 1: because it's so popular.

755
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 2: Well, it's so untouchable, and it's so popular that, you know,

756
00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:01,359
Speaker 2: taxpayers in upstate New York, we're paying more for an

757
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 2: owner's stadium than than they were supplying to their local

758
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 2: public schools. I mean, that's that's crazy, right.

759
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 1: So the NFL's nonprofit status right yeah, and nonprofit which

760
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 1: they gave up, by the way, so it's completely given up.

761
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,720
Speaker 1: So does that mean how much revenue were they hiding?

762
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 2: Oh? You know, who knows because the reason they gave

763
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 2: it up is for years they weren't complying with the

764
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 2: L and two's and L and thirties that you have

765
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 2: to file for a non non public i'm sorry, for

766
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 2: a nonprofit organization. So you know, it could be literally,

767
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 2: you know, chuck, it could have been hundreds of millions

768
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 2: of dollars because if you're pushing money into the League

769
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 2: Office and and paying out expenses. You're you're you're just

770
00:43:54,560 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 2: making the teams appear to have spent more yah, so

771
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,280
Speaker 2: that their tax burden is lower. So you know, who knows.

772
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 2: I mean, I think the real reason that they gave

773
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 2: up the nonprofit status is a I think they really

774
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 2: got tired of me going around the country and saying

775
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 2: that they were a nonprofit. I think that that absolutely

776
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,959
Speaker 2: just made them lose their bins. But at the same time,

777
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 2: you know what you have to do if you're a nonprofit.

778
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 2: You have to publicize the earnings and the salary and

779
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 2: the compensation of not only the commissioner but everybody else

780
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 2: who works for the League Office.

781
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:36,280
Speaker 1: And they and they got tired of their income.

782
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 2: I'll give you one more at least, going back to

783
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 2: some of the earlier days that preceded me, I think

784
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 2: it was a It might have been a grievance that

785
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,319
Speaker 2: we had filed. You know, I can't quite remember whether

786
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,359
Speaker 2: it was somebody who told me or we ended up

787
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 2: reading about it somewhere, but there were people in the

788
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 2: League Office who were getting warrants for I think it

789
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 2: was rebox stock so thing that were connected to the

790
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 2: deals that they were doing, so you know, if you

791
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 2: do that, you have to report that as well. And

792
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 2: what went out with the nonprofit status was any obligation

793
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 2: of anybody in the league office reporting salary or other compensation.

794
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 1: Alternative compensation like stock options and things like that. So

795
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 1: one of the one of the explanations that's always been

796
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,280
Speaker 1: given over the years as to why the NFL players

797
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 1: are not don't you know, have the guaranteed contracts and

798
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: why NFL players have sort of quote unquote folded sooner

799
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: than the baseball players did. Or is the lifespan of

800
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 1: an NFL player earning potentially so short that you know,

801
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 1: that player that's only going to be making money for

802
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:51,839
Speaker 1: you know, does it can't afford to lose a year

803
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 1: of you know you that's a third of their profess

804
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:57,280
Speaker 1: for some of them, that's a third of their professional

805
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 1: career suddenly out the window. And it's to me been

806
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 1: one of the explanations. And but is that is that

807
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 1: the reason? I mean, is it that just heem is

808
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 1: too big?

809
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:14,839
Speaker 2: What's your sense? I think the reason is I think

810
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 2: looking back now, I think psychologically, I don't know of

811
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:23,439
Speaker 2: another sport that is psychologically more militaristic than the National

812
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:24,240
Speaker 2: Football League.

813
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 1: So it's almost like it's your duty to accept the premise,

814
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 1: you know, like, come on, come on, private grunt, you know,

815
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 1: offensive lineman grunt. You know.

816
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,399
Speaker 2: It's just it's just I find it different. So I'm

817
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 2: not saying that's the you know, that's the only reason.

818
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 2: It's a collection of reasons.

819
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 1: But it's a less into It's more it's a less

820
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 1: individualistic sport of us for sure, right, both baseball and

821
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 1: and it's why I love football. I think it teaches teamwork.

822
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:52,879
Speaker 1: I think it's such an essential tool for teenagers to

823
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 1: learn that, hey, it takes eleven people rowing in the

824
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 1: same direction to succeed at something.

825
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 2: And that's I love football. I think that it's that.

826
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:06,359
Speaker 2: I think it's the sort of quasi militaristic spirit about it.

827
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 2: I think that I think history has a lot to

828
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,760
Speaker 2: do with it. You you had failed strikes in the eighties,

829
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 2: in the in the early nineties, and and look, you know,

830
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 2: my job is to try to build a level of

831
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:27,399
Speaker 2: solidarity and and willingness to to be a murder and

832
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 2: and if I couldn't do that, that's a failure on

833
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,840
Speaker 2: my part. So I think it's a combination of things

834
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 2: that that makes it tough. But you know, the thing

835
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 2: that I loved during my time there. I can think

836
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 2: of two times when the players came together. And first was,

837
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 2: as you remember when the President gave that speech in Huntsville,

838
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 2: Alabama that I'm sure he didn't understand it that he

839
00:47:56,280 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 2: basically called every NFL player's mother of yep. And and

840
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 2: you know, in a football culture, the other place that

841
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 2: you love that locker room mentality is you can say

842
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:14,319
Speaker 2: a lot of things, but you go down the mother

843
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 2: is a B word and everybody is about to get

844
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 2: hands laid on them. That's just it. That's just my culture,

845
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 2: and that's their culture.

846
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:22,879
Speaker 1: Well that's the same military culture. But the other way,

847
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 1: like whoa my band of brothers.

848
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 2: Was right, and what that entire weekend, including that Monday

849
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 2: night when the Dallas Cowboys and and and Jerry Jones knelt,

850
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:35,919
Speaker 2: that was a that was a show of solidarity.

851
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 1: Well that was Jerry Jones taking the temperature of his

852
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 1: own locker.

853
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 2: Room one thousand percent of either being on the train

854
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 2: or in front of the train.

855
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 1: That's right, he chose.

856
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 2: He chose on the train. And again I give a

857
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 2: great deal of of of credit to the guys in

858
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 2: his locker room, because he had said, if anybody kneels,

859
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,359
Speaker 2: you know, they're going to get cut. But those guys

860
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,919
Speaker 2: stood up. I mean, look, I think that what goes

861
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:05,799
Speaker 2: on in the National Football League is a is a

862
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 2: metaphor paradigm shift story about what American workers have to

863
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:15,760
Speaker 2: do in order to make sure that they protect themselves.

864
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 2: And and I get it. I get the idea that

865
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 2: it's only one third of you know, you might be

866
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 2: risking one third of your career. But look, I mean,

867
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:30,320
Speaker 2: my dad, my mother decided to risk a lot more

868
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 2: when they were voting, when they were marching for voting rights,

869
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 2: you know, going back to the coal miners of of

870
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 2: of your you know, Mother Jones and Rich Trunk, they

871
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 2: all risk things. You know, I went on I probably

872
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 2: went on one hundred and fifty pickets while I was

873
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 2: executive director, you know, the last of which I went

874
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:57,760
Speaker 2: on a picket line in Los Angeles for a group

875
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:03,880
Speaker 2: of women who were making cream cakes for Colestone. And

876
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:07,760
Speaker 2: those women had been on strike for more than a year,

877
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 2: mostly earning a little bit more than minimum wage. And

878
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 2: you know, if I'm standing up in front of our guys,

879
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 2: and I'm begging them or asking them or threatening them

880
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 2: and sometimes to stand up for themselves. I don't have

881
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 2: much more in me than saying, man, there's a group

882
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:30,799
Speaker 2: of women living paycheck to paycheck, willing to go to war.

883
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 1: Let me get you out of here on this. And

884
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 1: that is what's going on in college. Yeah, because college

885
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 1: players right now, in this moment in time, have more

886
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 1: leverage than NFL players. They have more freedom of movement.

887
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 1: Yeah arguably, Oh yeah, yeah they can. You know, if

888
00:50:53,320 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 1: you're well, take rock Party, rock Party has this career

889
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 1: year in college. He could take that, go to the

890
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 1: University of Miami and triple his salary that he was

891
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 1: making and say at Iowa State. But in the NFL,

892
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 1: with the rookie contract, he couldn't do that, right, he

893
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 1: was sort of stuck within the prison. And you know,

894
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:20,319
Speaker 1: you hope you sort of the agent plays the game.

895
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 1: Do you really want to make this you know whatever.

896
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: But the point is we are now going to have

897
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 1: a new class of players that are coming into the

898
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:34,080
Speaker 1: league who have actually had more negotiating rights for their

899
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 1: financial future starting in high school. Yeah, than the NFL

900
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 1: players have today. I know, that's going to change the

901
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 1: complexion of the NFLPA. I assume it's going to create

902
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:51,800
Speaker 1: I think, you know, if I'm the NFL owners, I

903
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 1: have to figure out how to get in front of

904
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 1: this because I think it's going to be an entirely

905
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:59,839
Speaker 1: different relationship between players and owners five years from now

906
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 1: as you get this, essentially as the old players cycle

907
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 1: out in this new players cycle in. I agree, what

908
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 1: do you think, I mean? You know, I mean, look,

909
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: I think you I both assume collective bargainings coming to

910
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 1: college sports kind of has to I don't know how

911
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 1: you you know how you the TV money and all

912
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 1: that stuff or a version of it right in some

913
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 1: form of it. Yeah, but that player empowerment happening now

914
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:28,239
Speaker 1: for high schoolers, okay, negotiating their way to decide which

915
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:31,359
Speaker 1: school to be at. Right, they have more freedom than

916
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 1: Reggie White ever had. They have more freedom than Eddie

917
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 1: Patrick Holmes Ma Homes has today in the NFL. That's

918
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 1: got to change the mindset of this union, I would hope.

919
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 2: I guess. The one thing I would say, Chuck, is

920
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:52,320
Speaker 2: what you've described is college and high school players having

921
00:52:52,560 --> 00:53:00,360
Speaker 2: more freedom. It takes direction and guidance to turn that

922
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:05,879
Speaker 2: into empowerment. And what I worry about is, on one hand,

923
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 2: you are absolutely right. You know, high school players and

924
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:14,400
Speaker 2: college players have more freedom over their indidividual year to

925
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:17,799
Speaker 2: year contract than a drafted rookie player than in his

926
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:21,359
Speaker 2: first three years. That's just the way it is. By

927
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 2: the way, if the NFL players want to decide in

928
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:26,359
Speaker 2: twenty thirty to get rid of the draft, man, let's

929
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 2: go right.

930
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 1: Go, So Toddy Bengels would never have another good player. Again,

931
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 1: I digress, but you know.

932
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:37,240
Speaker 2: The draft has always been there from the player side.

933
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 2: The draft has always been there because it was there

934
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:42,879
Speaker 2: to protect players coming out of college when they didn't

935
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 2: have anything. I think that's going to change. But the

936
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:51,320
Speaker 2: question is, while they have this level of freedom, who

937
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 2: on the high school side and who on the college

938
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 2: side directs that freedom in a direction or with a

939
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 2: focus so that it manifested itself into empowerment. And I

940
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:09,720
Speaker 2: think you are dead right about one thing. The NFL

941
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:16,200
Speaker 2: owners fear this more than anything, and the last thing

942
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 2: they want is for an educated, empowered player to start

943
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 2: coming in and demanding things.

944
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 1: Look, these high school kids are now learning about all

945
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 1: of this in a way that ten years ago they

946
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 1: didn't bother because there was nothing there to learn yet.

947
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:36,920
Speaker 1: In fairness, like you know, they knew about the recruiting process,

948
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:38,920
Speaker 1: and they might know, Hey, if I do this, I'll

949
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 1: get Nike gear, and if I do this, I'll get

950
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:44,719
Speaker 1: a Datas gear. But it is not financial and and

951
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 1: this is where I do think, like you just said,

952
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:50,520
Speaker 1: you're just going to have You know, there was an

953
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 1: old clothing store called Sims and they said this tagline

954
00:54:55,760 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 1: them the educated consumers are customer. Right, that's such a

955
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:03,840
Speaker 1: It was such a great tagline, right, the educated consumer

956
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 1: is our best get were.

957
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:09,240
Speaker 2: Local guys we get, right, I put to Sims.

958
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is going to be a more educated player,

959
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:16,920
Speaker 1: and it is a nightmare I think in the for

960
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:18,239
Speaker 1: the future NFL.

961
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 2: I think I think it's a more educated player going

962
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 2: back to if there is focus in direction. Because what

963
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 2: I do fear a little bit is you know, when

964
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 2: I would travel around to college campuses, we actually had

965
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:36,120
Speaker 2: a program called Pipeline to the Pros or Pipeline to

966
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 2: the Pros and and nfl PA people would go to

967
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 2: college campuses and talk to players about what it means

968
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 2: to financial education. Wasn't it.

969
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 1: It was basically right, a little bit.

970
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:47,839
Speaker 2: Of that, but you know, but Chuck, it was only

971
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 2: a day, right. What I would love to see is

972
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:56,920
Speaker 2: in the way that these schools are now providing, you know,

973
00:55:57,080 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 2: hundreds of millions of dollars to the to the to

974
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 2: these athletes. If I could waive a magic wand I

975
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:07,880
Speaker 2: would love for you know, many of the firms that

976
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:11,479
Speaker 2: I brought in to be on our financial literacy, whether

977
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 2: it was Morgan Stanley or or other companies coming into

978
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 2: to to become financial advisors to players. I would love

979
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 2: a world where if these schools are going to do

980
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:30,320
Speaker 2: this and be a part of the financial enrichment for

981
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:32,879
Speaker 2: for the players. Man, I would love a world where

982
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:38,719
Speaker 2: either there was mandatory attendance at these financial literacy seminars

983
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:44,279
Speaker 2: or guys and women being mandated to take classes in

984
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 2: college for that.

985
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:48,359
Speaker 1: I guess I look, it's weird that I haven't asked

986
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:51,200
Speaker 1: you about the current mess at the NFLPA right now.

987
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:55,359
Speaker 1: I know you're not there, so but yeah, what has

988
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 1: that done to morale? Are are there? You know who is?

989
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 1: You know? I was al was with Eric Winston, who

990
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:03,960
Speaker 1: was your sort of player Sideki, Yeah, he was the

991
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:06,320
Speaker 1: president of the players when he was a working player.

992
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 1: How concerned are players do you think right now of

993
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 1: this mess of your among your successors?

994
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 2: I I hope they're concerned, Okay. I hope they have

995
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 2: an understanding of how important this union is as literally

996
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,640
Speaker 2: the only barrier between you and the National Football League.

997
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:32,600
Speaker 2: I hope that players will take the time to to

998
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 2: how do I say this delicately? I hope that they

999
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 2: take a time, and especially the player leadership, to spend

1000
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:44,360
Speaker 2: some some time in sort of brutal reflection of how they.

1001
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:47,040
Speaker 1: Got here, meaning that these guys better.

1002
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:51,680
Speaker 2: Man. Well, I don't want I think.

1003
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 1: I know you're in a tough position.

1004
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 2: I'm not.

1005
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:57,040
Speaker 1: I'm not trying. What I would say that be depressed today.

1006
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:01,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, what I would say is this, man, I knew

1007
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 2: when I sat in front of the players in two

1008
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 2: thousand and nine that Breeze Mawai Dawkins Saturday, the lawyers

1009
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:16,520
Speaker 2: that were in the room, the former players that were

1010
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:21,560
Speaker 2: in the room, I knew the moment I sat down

1011
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 2: that everybody in there understood two things. They understood the history,

1012
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:34,400
Speaker 2: and they understood that the owners are not thirty one

1013
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:38,560
Speaker 2: guys who are somehow going to be sweet talked by

1014
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:44,640
Speaker 2: someone who talks the language of business. And I think

1015
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:51,800
Speaker 2: they understood that better than anyone. And if the players

1016
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:56,439
Speaker 2: want to make sure that they are well prepared for

1017
00:58:56,520 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 2: the war that is coming their way, it is if

1018
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:03,200
Speaker 2: I were the owners of the National Football League, and

1019
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 2: I unfortunately know the way that they think. You and

1020
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 2: I both know that there isn't a major corporation in

1021
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:13,800
Speaker 2: the country that's still paying a pension, right, I mean

1022
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 2: the NFL is. I think that the owners understand that

1023
00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 2: the salary cap and revenue, if it's going to be

1024
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:24,280
Speaker 2: tied to this share of revenue, you're going to be

1025
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 2: looking at a salary cap that is going to be astronomical.

1026
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 1: They don't want to pay the NBA contracts, do they.

1027
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 1: They're petrified in paying the ninety million dollars a year now.

1028
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so you will either interpret that as a

1029
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:41,720
Speaker 2: as a as an existential threat to the way that

1030
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:45,200
Speaker 2: you are have done business as a player, or you'll

1031
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:47,280
Speaker 2: stick your head in the sand and and and and

1032
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 2: not think that way. So, you know, I loved my

1033
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:57,080
Speaker 2: time there for the most part. But this union is

1034
00:59:57,160 --> 01:00:00,600
Speaker 2: so critically important to the men in the families who

1035
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 2: play this game, that the leadership better have their own

1036
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:08,400
Speaker 2: Marvin Miller that gets their heads on straight. Yeah.

1037
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:10,400
Speaker 1: Maybe in some ways this scandals a wake up call,

1038
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:13,800
Speaker 1: right it sort of know that they they were able

1039
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:15,600
Speaker 1: to in some ways you deal with a problem before

1040
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:16,440
Speaker 1: it could have been worse.

1041
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:18,280
Speaker 2: You hope so, and you hope you learned from it.

1042
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 1: Right now, I could keep going, uh, talk about how

1043
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:25,880
Speaker 1: do we But like I said, this book again you

1044
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:27,800
Speaker 1: want to understand the business of football. You don't have

1045
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:30,560
Speaker 1: to agree with everything the Mars wrote in here, but

1046
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 1: it really does.

1047
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:34,640
Speaker 2: It.

1048
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:38,720
Speaker 1: This is a very opaque lead, extraordinarily opaque, and anytime

1049
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:41,760
Speaker 1: you can peer inside and you help this peer inside.

1050
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:43,200
Speaker 1: So it's a It was a great it was a

1051
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:44,680
Speaker 1: great rate congresation.

1052
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:45,280
Speaker 2: Bro