1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production I heart Radio. 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,319 Speaker 1: When you're a leader of an industry, you gotta make 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: the industry. You know, it's not just enough to make 4 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: the company. You've got to make the industry work. I 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: am Bob Pittman, and welcome to matth and Magic. Stories 6 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 1: from the Frontiers and Marketing. Today, we have a guest 7 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,799 Speaker 1: who brings us insights from decades of being at the 8 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: forefront of change in technology and all the products and 9 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 1: services that ride on that change. He's a mainstay of 10 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: the Silicon Valley world. Ben Horrowitz, the co founder and 11 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: general partner of venture capital firm Andreesan Horowits. Ben grew 12 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: up in Berkeley, so he actually started out on the 13 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 1: West Coast. He's described his young self as incredibly shy, 14 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: but he was also incredibly smart, with a strong math mind. 15 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: He was a computer science guy in both the undergrad 16 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: and grad world, and not surprisingly spent his early career 17 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: tech firms like Silicon Graphics, Lotus, and then at Netscape 18 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,839 Speaker 1: when Netscape changed the world. He's always loved hip hop. 19 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: He's written to brilliant books. The most recent is The 20 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: Hard Thing About Hard Things. He's a coach and has 21 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:20,119 Speaker 1: helped countless entrepreneurs and best of all, he's a really 22 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: nice guy. Welcome Ben, Thanks Bob. It's exciting to be 23 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:26,320 Speaker 1: here and exciting to be working with you again. Exactly, 24 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:29,839 Speaker 1: we're like going back in time before we jump into 25 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: that and the other good stuff. I want to start 26 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: off with exploring you in sixty seconds. Sound good? Yes, Okay, 27 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: here we go. Do you prefer early rising or night out? Well, 28 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: at this stage of my life, early rising. There was 29 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: a time when I tried to keep jazz hours, but 30 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: no longer. Berkeley or Silicon Valley, Silicon Valley Cool DJ 31 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: red Alert or Chuck Chill Out, col DJ Red Alert, 32 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: Beach or Mountains Beach, Columbia or u C L A 33 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: call or text, text, coffee or tea coffee, Raiders or 34 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: forty Niners, Raiders. Cats are dogs, dogs, It's about to 35 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: get harder. Smartest person you know, I'll say Mattes Harris, 36 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 1: childhood hero, George Clinton, favorite rapper, nas secret talent making 37 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: grits and colored greens. Super good at both of those. 38 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: That's a hell of a talent. Favorite City, Florence, guilty pleasure, 39 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:39,559 Speaker 1: maddened football. Let's jump into the real stuff alight. Netscape 40 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: changed the world. It was the first commercially viable browser 41 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: that opened up the Internet to mirror mortals, and of 42 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: course has been the foundation of what we have today. 43 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: You were there at that moment. Contrastper us where we 44 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: are today versus where you thought Netscape was gonna take us. 45 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: You know, so many of the things that we thought 46 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: we're gonna happen did happen on the good in the 47 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: bad side. So, you know, the world came online. People 48 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: have the Library of Congress in their pocket. People have 49 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: better access to information now the average person with a 50 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: with a phone than you know, the President of the 51 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 1: United States had in So it's like that has been amazing. 52 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: Video worked, audio worked, Um. All the industries, uh kind 53 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: of moved on to the Internet. We definitely thought all 54 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: that would happen. Uh. And on the bad side, we 55 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: did think there was going to be a lot of crime. 56 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: Although we did, we thought we'd have a better chance 57 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: at stopping it. There was a period where the entire 58 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: industry just decided not to take security on the Internet 59 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: seriously and started with a technology that Microsoft built called 60 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: active X, which you know everybody knew was going to 61 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: be problematic, but you know, it was competitive and they 62 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: did anyway and whatnot. And then after that, I think 63 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: we were really really kind of just went away from 64 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: the idea that we had to build things super safely 65 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: online and uh beast led to what it has um. 66 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: I definitely didn't anticipate all the implications of social media, 67 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: and in particular, you know what it meant for humanity. 68 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: So because we had kind of versions of it. We 69 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: had news groups, we had I R. C Chat, we 70 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: had things on the internet in the early days, and 71 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 1: it didn't quite happen the way it happened with Facebook 72 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 1: and Twitter and and you know, Instagram and these kinds 73 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 1: of things. But I think that humanity is not really 74 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: able to process everybody's opinion simultaneously at the same level 75 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:51,239 Speaker 1: in a way that's quite spectacular. Did you anticipate that 76 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: really was probably social and more than anything else, would 77 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: replace news experts, that we would sort of be looking 78 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: to anyone who had a point of view as opposed 79 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 1: to these anointed experts that we trusted. We really thought 80 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: news was going to change. So Mark and Jim Clark 81 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: went to see all the big media guys and say, hey, 82 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: you know, you need to invest in Netscape because the 83 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:18,479 Speaker 1: Internet is going to be a problem for you guys 84 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 1: got to get in front of it. And they all 85 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 1: basically laughed at them, like none of them wanted to 86 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 1: put by They They were like, you guys are idiots, 87 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,359 Speaker 1: Like nobody's going to read news off a computer. What 88 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: are you talking about? All that kind of thing. And 89 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: I remember just as sitting there just being completely shocked 90 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: that they would think that, because we thought news was 91 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: never going to be the same, you know, it had 92 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 1: changed forever, and in fact, it would be more like 93 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: and you know, Mark used to talk about the origination 94 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: of newspapers in the United States, which was you know, 95 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 1: literally the founding fathers pseudonymously writing what we would call 96 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: a blog post today. So they all had their own 97 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: newspapers where they would write, sometimes under their own name 98 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: and sometimes under a pseudonym, and you know, they would 99 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,919 Speaker 1: attack each other and write like very aggressive stuff and 100 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: so forth. But everything was an opinion. There was no 101 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: what we would call journalism in that sense. You know, 102 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: well it was very opinionated. I would just say, uh, 103 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: and we thought that's what was going to happen. And 104 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, you know, and particularly the 105 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: blogging era was a lot of that. I think social 106 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 1: media put it on steroids and that kind of idea 107 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 1: that there would be no kind of set of facts 108 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 1: that people agreed on. Also, by the way, I think 109 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: we knew enough to know that kind of centrally controlled facts, 110 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 1: you know, had been historically very wrong, very many times. 111 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: So you know, we didn't think that was such a problem, 112 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: although you know, it's got other problems. So let me 113 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: sort of continue on the society impact before we jump 114 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: into some other issues. You know, when I was growing up, 115 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: I left home at eighteen. I moved to thousand miles away. 116 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 1: My parents had no idea dea what was going on 117 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: in the town I moved to because there was no 118 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: way to get that information. Long distance phone calls were 119 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 1: very expensive back then. Yeah, and they didn't work on 120 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: Mother's Day exactly. And by exactly, I forget about that. 121 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: And and by the way, I called them about once 122 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: a week, once every two weeks. I was able to 123 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: afford a trip home about every six months or so. 124 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: And today my college age kids can't escape me. It's 125 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: like they're still living with me. I know where they are, 126 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:30,559 Speaker 1: I know all the info about where they are living, 127 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: their friends, what's been going on. Some would argue, and 128 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: I'm gonna give you two contrasting views here. Some would 129 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: argue that we're denying our kids the chance to become 130 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: their own independent adults. Others say, no, this is what 131 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: life was like a hundred and fifty years ago, when 132 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: families lived together and created this tight community. It was 133 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: more about family and common goals. So where do you 134 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: come down on this? I actually think our era was 135 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: probably better because there was something about and you were 136 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: remember it, that that feeling that you're out there without 137 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: a net, you know, when away from home, like it 138 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: was like, Okay, you're gonna get it done or you're 139 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: just gonna be hungry. There was no I'm moving back 140 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: in with mom. She definitely that room in the house 141 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: for me, and you know, in my case and my 142 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: whole like wife and kids. So I think that feeling 143 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: of there's only one way out, up and out, and 144 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 1: you've got to get it done is very powerful because 145 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: there's so many things in life that make you want 146 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: to stop, or make you want to quit, or make 147 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: you want to kind of not press forward. And I 148 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: think that you know, kind of the lack of that. 149 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: You know, that kind of nest, that ever encompassing nest 150 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 1: is tough to deal with for today's kids, and that 151 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: one like there's just that feeling that you can return 152 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: home like your kids or my kids, you know, it's 153 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: almost like they have too many choices, you know, Like 154 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: like you and I had, Okay, whatever it was gonna 155 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 1: make us money, that's what we were doing. Like there 156 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,559 Speaker 1: was no okay, should I do this or that, or 157 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 1: I'm not sure what I want to do with my career, Like, yeah, 158 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: we didn't have those thoughts. A lot of what you 159 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: get out of those early experiences is that you just 160 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:22,199 Speaker 1: went hard and the things you learned by going hard 161 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: at something and giving it everything you have because you 162 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: have to to survive, Like, there's just tremendous value in that. 163 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 1: Let's continue a little bit on the idea of kids. 164 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: Let's go back in time to you as a kid. 165 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: You were a product of life in Berkeley, California in 166 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: the sixties, seventies and eighties. Can you paint a picture 167 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: of that time and place that you grew up in 168 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: that influenced you. I had a very weird childhood because 169 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: you know, my father was you probably remember Ramparts magazine, 170 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: which was kind of the magazine of the new Left 171 00:09:56,160 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: in the early seventies. He was the editor in chief, um. 172 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: And so he was super left, you know, basically a 173 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: Marxist uh. And you know, and one of the things early, 174 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: you know, when I was four or five, you know, 175 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: six eight years old as he was, he was very 176 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: involved in the Oaklant chapter of the Black Panthers. And 177 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: so like a lot of the people I met, the 178 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: adults I met when I was a kid were Panthers, 179 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 1: and that had a very big influence on me, not 180 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 1: politically at all, but just stylistically, you know, all the 181 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: things that I end up uh, you know, being music 182 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: or people ask meak, like Ben, why do you drink knyac? 183 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:40,839 Speaker 1: Nobody drinks that. I was like, that was not the 184 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: Panthers drunk, you know, they would always talk about it 185 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 1: like they're gonna have a yak. I was like, that 186 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,439 Speaker 1: sounds like the greatest thing ever. So, you know, that's 187 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 1: kind of just where I ended up. But then, you know, 188 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: my father's politics changed all the way as I got 189 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: to be a teenager. Um, and that just kind of 190 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: me to go, Okay, I should stay away from politics 191 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: because nobody knows what's going on. But Berkeley was, uh, 192 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: you know, very integrated place, which you know was a 193 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,079 Speaker 1: great benefit to me, and that I kind of learned 194 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: so many cultures growing up. It was just such a 195 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: different place than every other place that I was in 196 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: my life that it kind of forced me to learn 197 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: how to adapt culturally, you know, first to like the 198 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: business world, because I had no no concept of what 199 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: like a corporate culture would would be like when I 200 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 1: was a kid. You know, we were always yelling at 201 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: each other because we were more a politics culture, and so, 202 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,479 Speaker 1: you know, all those things you ended up being really valuable. 203 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: You were this smart math kid. I know that, but 204 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: I didn't know this. You also played football. How did 205 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: having a foot and in both of those worlds help you? 206 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: I mean those seems like pretty dimestrically opposed. It's funny, 207 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: you know, like my my ability was math um, but 208 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: I love ball. And then you know, because Berkeley was 209 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 1: such a hippie town, and you know, communists hate football. 210 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: I have no idea why, like what it is about 211 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: football that doesn't go with communism, Like they're fine with 212 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: basketball or gymnastics or you know, other things. But they 213 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: really hate football. Um. And you know, coming from like 214 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: a communist heritage, uh, you know, being a teenager, I 215 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: was like anything communist. Hey, I'm for and so I 216 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: want you know, football was great in that sense. And 217 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: so you know, like I just tried out for the 218 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: team and uh I made the team. And you know, 219 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: anybody who's played high school football, it's such an amazing 220 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: bonding experience. You get so much of that really tight camaraderie. 221 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: So you got football. Let's move to the other thing 222 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: that was an influence. Hip hop clearly had a huge 223 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: impact on you. It developed popped on the scene about 224 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: the time you were growing up. Why and how hip hop? 225 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 1: And why you and hip hop? It felt like a breakthrough, 226 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: like okay, here's something brand new. Uh, you know, my 227 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: parents don't know about this, nobody knows what this is. 228 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 1: I can imagine be like, you know if you grew 229 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: up when Rock and roll hit. It was that kind 230 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: of feeling where, oh my god, this is you know, 231 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: such a different feeling. And then the other thing about it, 232 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 1: you know, for me, was it was so aspirational. You know, 233 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,959 Speaker 1: you had these kids who like literally they had so 234 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: much nothing, they would they would make songs about their 235 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:38,559 Speaker 1: sneakers and their sweatsuits, like aspiration is a thing independent 236 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: of what you have, and you know, for me, it 237 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: was such a great kind of motivation attitude, you know, 238 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 1: like you can make something from nothing. The whole culture 239 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: of it had just tremendous appeal, and you know, I 240 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: I got very into it. Now. You know, along the 241 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: way that there was this crazy incident where a friend 242 00:13:58,160 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: that I grew up with, who you know, very very 243 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 1: his family friend, got shot and became blind and he 244 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: didn't speak for three months. He was so depressed for 245 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: being his only thirteen year old kid, and nothing could 246 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: kind of bring him out of it. Um. And I 247 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: was in New York at the time, you know, in college, 248 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: and I recorded Here's how It's Gonna Like naive I was. 249 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: I would record the DJ Red Alert and Chuck Chillout 250 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: shows because I thought like they were so exciting and 251 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: they were so aspirational that if I sent him these 252 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: tapes from these shows that he would snap out of it. 253 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: And sure enough, like all he wanted to talk about 254 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: was you know, DJ Red Alert and Check Chill Out. 255 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: And so, you know, he and I we started a 256 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: rap band UM called the blind and deaf grow d 257 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: ef so that you know, I would suck forever once 258 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: that happened. Well, let's talk a little bit about that tug, 259 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: because you you did form this rap group, the Blind 260 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: Deaf Crew, but you also worked one summer at Silicon 261 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: Graph Takes and you described it as a mind blowing 262 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: experience when those seemed to be two opposite paths that 263 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: you're going down. How did these different interests coexist with 264 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: you and how did they feed each other? Yeah, well, 265 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: you know, Silico Graphics was so exciting because these really 266 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: really smart people just created this company that made the terminator. 267 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: I mean it was it was like out of nothing, 268 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: and I was like, wow, like a new you can 269 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: just have an idea and do that, and that you know, 270 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: for me, that went perfectly with the hip hop idea 271 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: of something from nothing, and like if you believe in 272 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: yourself and like you can do anything, um and you've 273 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 1: got energy and creativity, then you can just go do it, 274 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: like let's go build something, let's go make something, let's 275 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: go change the world. Once I saw it, I can't 276 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: un see it. It was just that that that's what 277 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: I had to do. So you did Columbia. You decide 278 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: you're not going to be a hip hop star, you 279 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: go get your masters at U c l A. You 280 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: joined Silicon Graphics. I think briefly you were at net 281 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: Labs and Lotus and finally they takes you to net 282 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: Escape at the birth of the Internet for the masses. 283 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: How did you get there? Well, it's funny because you know, 284 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: I had been at Silicon Graphics. You know that is 285 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: you pay attention to the people you work with and 286 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: the people who you knew were great. And Jim clark Um, 287 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: you know, had this new company, net Escape, and I 288 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: immediately download the product and looked at it and I 289 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, I mean everybody saw the browser in 290 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: those days who knew anything, was like, holy sh it, 291 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: nothing's ever going to be the same. They put they 292 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: literally put an interface on the Internet. Yeah, it was 293 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: just like, oh my god, this is definitely the thing. 294 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: You were there when Netscape went public, and for people 295 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: a lot younger than us, they don't remember this, but 296 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: it was the thing. Arguably it was the original Internet. 297 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: I p O. I think something every tech company after 298 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: that time wanted to follow. Certainly everybody was talking about it, 299 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: whether they were in tech or not. How did it 300 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: feel on the inside. Did you realize you were making 301 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: history and having that kind of impact. It was it 302 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: was really exciting in Silicon Valley. If you went to 303 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: the movie theater and you had a Netscape shirt on, 304 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: like it was almost like you were like a rock star, 305 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: rap star or something that people would go, whoa, you 306 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: work at Escape, that's crazy. Everybody knew that we were 307 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: at the center of the universe, and so there was 308 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,439 Speaker 1: tremendous excitement and then just the feeling, you know, we 309 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 1: would run into these problems. So, you know, the first 310 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 1: thing that we ran into was, oh, the Internet will 311 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: never work. It's not secure. I mean, you know, Bill 312 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: Gates and Larry Ellison, we're like, oh, you guys, are 313 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,399 Speaker 1: you know it's it's it's not a secure network. It 314 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 1: can never be used for commerce. You can't put security 315 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: into a pro to call after the fact, all this 316 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. And literally in three weeks we came 317 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: out with SSL and we secured the whole Internet, and 318 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: we needed state and we invented cookies, and we needed 319 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: a scripting language and we invented Joba script. You know. 320 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 1: So it was tremendously exciting and then of course, as 321 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 1: you know, when you get really popular, the next thing 322 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: that happens is everybody wants to take you down. And 323 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: so we went through that whole cycle to which was 324 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: a great learning experience, although quite unpleasant. More a Math 325 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: and Magic right after this quick break. Welcome back to 326 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,159 Speaker 1: Math and Magic. Now let's hear more from my conversation 327 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: with Ben Horowitz. What lesson from that early days of 328 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 1: Netscape do you still use today and that offered your entrepreneurs. 329 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 1: I try and take mostly the positive lessons. I think that, 330 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: you know, we made many mistakes. Of course, when you 331 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: have the tiger by the tail like that and it's 332 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: going so fast, But you know, some of the positive 333 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:12,199 Speaker 1: things were like, you know, when you're a leader of 334 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: an industry, you've got to make the industry. You know, 335 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: it's not just enough to make the company, You've got 336 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: to make the industry work. And we really had that attitude. 337 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: And you know, you know, I talked to the guys 338 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: at coin base about this a lot. If there's something 339 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 1: missing in the crypto infrastructure, like you gotta build it, 340 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: don't wait for it, go do it. And then from 341 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:39,119 Speaker 1: a marketing standpoint, you know, really just acting like you know, 342 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: walking to talk, you know, or talking the walk is 343 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:46,479 Speaker 1: so to speak of of going, look, we're building the Internet. 344 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: That's what we're here to do. We're number one, and 345 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: we're going to market the industry and we're gonna push 346 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: it ahead. And those things I use all the time. 347 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, Andrews and Horowitz. If we want 348 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 1: to change venture capital, then we change ut your capital. 349 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 1: That's our thing. We don't wait and try and rally 350 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: all our friends or do this. We just we make 351 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: the change. Well along that way, you know, I was 352 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: at A O L at that time, and we we 353 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: were on a similar mission of let's make the Internet 354 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: usable by mere mortals. And in nine we bought Netscape. 355 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 1: Mark became our CTO. You ran the e commerce platform, 356 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 1: but it was a it was an East Coast meets 357 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: West coast. I remember all the hand ringing we had. 358 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: It was like you know, in in Dulles, Virginia, the 359 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 1: A O L engineers had offices and they said it 360 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 1: was impossible to do their work without them. Yet Netscape 361 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: just had an open cubicle for everybody, including the CEO. 362 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 1: And when Steve Case and I flew out to meet everyone, 363 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: and through the town hall meeting. The first one, the 364 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 1: first question was, I don't know if you remember this. 365 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: Can we still bring our dogs into work? Um? And 366 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 1: I think that sort of exemplified the cultural difference. So 367 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: what lessons did you learn you talked about you know, 368 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: usually take the positives, but you know, we learned a 369 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: lot from mistakes. What did you learn from that mismatch 370 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 1: of cultures? Yeah? So you know, I wrote a whole 371 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: book on culture called what What You Do Is Who 372 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: You Are with some of those lessons in mind. You know, 373 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: culture is very subtle and nuanced in the sense that 374 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 1: you always have a main culture and then you have 375 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:28,400 Speaker 1: subcultures there. You know, it's never a uniform across everything. 376 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: But you have to as an organization be like very 377 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: clear in your head, Okay, what parts of the culture 378 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:42,239 Speaker 1: are essential to our competitive advantage, and make sure that 379 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: you assimilate people into those things and then the other things. 380 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: You know, you can let be different, but you've got 381 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: to mitigate it. Um. You know, that's the basic role. 382 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: But then you know, when you get into the east 383 00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 1: coast West coast thing, you have this weird issue you 384 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: where people get constantly offended by the other side's behavior. Um, 385 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: And I think in that case it was more of 386 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: the West coast getting offended by the East coast. Uh. 387 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: And it's a bigger thing than it should be because 388 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,479 Speaker 1: the meaning of what people say is different. You know, 389 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:20,919 Speaker 1: like if somebody in the East Coast says, why the 390 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: funk are you doing that? It doesn't mean anything then 391 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: like explain it to me, Whereas on the West Coast 392 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 1: that might mean like, Okay, this guy hates me and 393 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: is out to get me funck him. Like that's a 394 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: bad miscommunication. And you do have to think about, Okay, 395 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: who are the you know who, who are the cross 396 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 1: cultural people who can deal with that, who can be 397 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: in in those spots and and and really make that work. 398 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: Talk about that, and I think you've hit it exactly. 399 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: I mean my view of that, it was a miserable 400 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,919 Speaker 1: because of the culture clash. People sort of forget that 401 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: the financial performance of all time Warner far exceeded that 402 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: its rivals. It was actually as a company really performing, 403 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: but everyone was so unhappy and that became the headline 404 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: and ultimately drove the stock price down in spite of 405 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 1: superior earnings. So you're right, culture winds and culture will 406 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 1: both win and defeat, depending which way you go. Yeah, 407 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: when you evaluate companies, where does the examination of corporate 408 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: culture fit into that? When we invest, we usually invest 409 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 1: pretty early, so you know, we're usually at the point 410 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: where we're trying to help them shape it because as 411 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,679 Speaker 1: you know, like I think, there's this myth among you know, 412 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 1: kind of certain hr consults that you kind of break 413 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,120 Speaker 1: down your culture when you're five people and then that's 414 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: your culture. Like that's not at all how it works, right, 415 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: So it's kind of this thing where it takes you 416 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: a while to figure out. Okay, So in our industry, 417 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: you know, these are the things that are going to matter, 418 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 1: is it you know, is it creativity or respond sideness 419 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: or frugality or whatever the you know, whatever the elements 420 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: are that you've got to have to win. And then 421 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 1: you know, how do you program that into the organization. 422 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: So I think we spend kind of more time helping 423 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:18,479 Speaker 1: people figure out who they are and then you know, 424 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: try and set enough mechanisms into place in how they 425 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: run the organization so that when new people come on, 426 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: they assimilate in rather than kind of pulling people their way. 427 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,119 Speaker 1: Because what happens a lot in Silicon Valley is Okay, 428 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: I've got a company, and then I go, oh, you know, 429 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: Google's got some great engineers that are unhappy, so I'm 430 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: gonna hire twenty of them. Well, all of a sudden, 431 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: now your culture is Google's culture, and it's more of 432 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: that kind of thing than than I would say trying 433 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: to evaluate who they are, because you know, it's developing 434 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: you and Mark culture or something caused you to leave 435 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: and you started one of the pioneers of the cloud 436 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,360 Speaker 1: loud cloud, and that's sort of morphed into opswhere, which 437 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 1: you eventually sill old HP. You and Mark started entries 438 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: in Horowitz in two thousand and nine. Why VC instead 439 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: of starting or running another company. Yeah, well, you know, 440 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: we uh, we were weirdly very passionate about the idea 441 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: of changing how venture capital worked. And I'm not sure 442 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: why he was so keyed up about it, but I 443 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 1: was definitely keyed up about it, And a lot of 444 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: it just had to do with our experience. Um, you 445 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 1: know a little bit at both Netscape and OPS where 446 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 1: you know, the the VC model was and they talked 447 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: about it, Oh, it's a cottage industry, it's an apprentice model. 448 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: It's you know, a few craftspeople who know how companies 449 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: get built, and we're going to tell you how to 450 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: do it, and we're likely to replace the CEO with 451 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: somebody who knows how to scale. And that was kind 452 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: of how it worked. And we're like, wow, this is 453 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: just dumb. Some of these vcs were great, like super 454 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,919 Speaker 1: massively talented, very smart people who we work with. But 455 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: you know, we're like, well, why is the model to 456 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 1: replace the CEO when all the best tech companies historically 457 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: Hewlett Packard, IBM, Microsoft, you know, Amazon, we're all run 458 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,640 Speaker 1: by their founders for a very long time. Like why 459 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 1: is that the model that didn't make saying? You know 460 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: in our experience and you know this, like you know, 461 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: when you start a company, you're the one who makes 462 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: all the mistakes, so it's easier for you to change 463 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: them to get it right right. Uh So, so we thought, 464 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: you know, there ought to be a model for that. 465 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: And then without like well why is it so hard 466 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: for a founder to build a company? And there was 467 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:38,679 Speaker 1: really two things. You know, One is like like the 468 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: CEO skill set is really hard. It's not something that 469 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 1: people are born. Okay, I know how to manage a 470 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,880 Speaker 1: thousand people that that takes practice. And then the other 471 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 1: thing was just a network. You know, you look at 472 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: somebody like Bob Eiger and you go, wow, that guy 473 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: can call anybody. And we thought, well, like you could 474 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: do that. You could build that network, you know, as 475 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 1: part of the firm if you had a great venture 476 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 1: capital form and then enable kind of every entrepreneur to 477 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,400 Speaker 1: have a network like Bob Iger's where they could get 478 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: to anybody, Like how great would that be? And then 479 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: help that founder develop into a CEO. And so we thought, wow, 480 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: if we built that Silicon Valley, would be able to 481 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: build much better, much bigger companies. And you know, we 482 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: both got super excited about it. So that's what we 483 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 1: ended up doing. Does hip hop inform anything you do 484 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: today in venture capital? I think it informs the feeling 485 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: of what it means to kind of build something, compete, 486 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: run an organization. There are so many great insights in 487 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 1: the music over the years, um and you know, of course, 488 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 1: I you know, whenever I write anything, I incorporate that 489 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: in But so many of my ideas about like how 490 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: do you convey the emotion of something two a CEO? 491 00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: Because as you know, like the actual mechanic of management. 492 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: The theory of it is not that complicated, but like 493 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: having the right feeling to be able to do it 494 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: is something that very few people can do because you're 495 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: going to make people unhappy. You know, people are gonna quit, 496 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 1: like every important decision you make people like some people 497 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: in the organization, but absolutely fucking hate And so how 498 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 1: do you how do you get your head around that? 499 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 1: The rap quote that I use as Rick Ross, which 500 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: is who the fund do you think you're fucking with? 501 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: I'm the fucking boss. And that's like, that's the emotional 502 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: side of it, like stop working with me, Like, no, 503 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: let's jump a little bit to business helping to make 504 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: a better world. What what's your philosophy on that? Yeah, 505 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: so much. I think that's kind of the purpose of 506 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: starting a new business. I do think, you know, there's 507 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: a different question when businesses get really old and you're 508 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: kind of protecting what's already built. But for new businesses, 509 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: every new business, the idea is always to make something 510 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: in the world better. You know, Can we build a 511 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 1: better way of paying for things? Can we build a 512 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: better way of taking a vacation? You know, can we 513 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: build a better way of getting from point A to 514 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: point B, Like that's always the idea. So, you know, 515 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: I'm I couldn't be more positive on people starting companies. 516 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: And you know, it's why I got a I got 517 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:25,959 Speaker 1: a question from somebody in the press the other day 518 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: and they said, been, you know, like, aren't you upset that, 519 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 1: you know, the venture capital is getting ruined by these 520 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: high prices? And I said, well, I said, hold on, 521 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: you know, so too many high prices, too many things 522 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 1: getting funded there like, yeah, too many things getting funded, 523 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: you know, even things that shouldn't be funded. I'm like, well, 524 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: so you're against the transfer of wealth from like people 525 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: with too much money to people trying to build something new. 526 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: What's wrong with you? That's the greatest idea ever. That's perfect. 527 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: So I think, like, you know, I wish there was 528 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,239 Speaker 1: money for everybody who ever had an idea to make 529 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: the world a better place to go give it a shot. 530 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: One of the greatest things about America is that it's 531 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: pretty easy to do that compared to other places in 532 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: the world. Look, you don't always know what all the 533 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: implications of what you built is going to be. When 534 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: Zach started Facebook, it was like a hotter not type 535 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 1: of idea in the beginning, you know how college kids 536 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: can meet each other, that kind of thing, so you 537 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: know how it gets from there to there, Like things 538 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,239 Speaker 1: do happen, you know, as the population grows, we need 539 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: better ways of doing things. Are we're all going to 540 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: be in a lot of trouble And what advice do 541 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: you give your companies on the topic? Do you sort 542 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: of help them write that into their charter if you will, Well, 543 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: the original idea is always like this is broken, like 544 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: we can make this so much better, and so usually 545 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: that's there. I mean, I want to take credit for that. 546 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: I do spend a lot of time with CEO is 547 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: going Look, you know, at the end of the day, 548 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 1: when this is over, Like, the most import thing is 549 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 1: the impact you make, Like what is it like to 550 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: work here? What is it like for the people who 551 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: buy the product? What is it like for the people 552 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 1: you partner with? Like what is the impact that you 553 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: make on this world? That's all that's gonna matter. That's 554 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: the only thing you're gonna remember. So just make sure 555 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: you do that the way you want to, because when 556 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: you're running a business, there's pressure to do all kinds 557 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: of stuff just because you know, you've gotta in order 558 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 1: to continue to the endeavor, you've got to at some 559 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: point make money. But you know, I do think that 560 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 1: we don't see people in Silicon Valley starting businesses to 561 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: you know, to do the things that you see in movies. 562 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 1: People aren't like just trying to get rich. They're they're 563 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: usually they have some idea that that they're inspired about 564 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: for some reason. Let me get some of your quick 565 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: takes on some current topics. Return to office. What's the 566 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 1: future of the workplace. Yeah, so, look, I think it's 567 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: gonna be different. We learned a lot during COVID. We 568 00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: didn't learn nothing. We learned a lot and we learned 569 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: you know, in particular, you know, some things work really 570 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 1: well on zoom and Slack and in all the tool sets, 571 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: and look, we also learned some things don't work well. 572 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: It is hard, Like culture is more complicated by a lot, 573 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: I think remotely and creative work is much more difficult. 574 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: And there's a bunch of things that I think you're 575 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: gonna want to be in person on. But there's a 576 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 1: lot of things you know, to to to make everybody 577 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: go to the office and then like be on email 578 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: and slack, not talking to each other is stupid, right, 579 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: you know. And you know, look, I'm a CEO. I 580 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: live eight minutes from the office. But you know, nobody 581 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 1: on my team does, right, you know, they're commuting an 582 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: hour or two hours. Uh, they've got kids. I don't 583 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,719 Speaker 1: need to make them do that every single day. I 584 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: think we're just going to end up being a lot 585 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: more thoughtful about when we get together and when we're remote. 586 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: Of the things that really struck me as we had 587 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: a couple of off sites during COVID, you know, outside 588 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: when you know, we thought we weren't too nervous, and 589 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: those off sites were so much better than anything we'd 590 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: ever done pre COVID, because pre COVID, you know that 591 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: we had too much agenda and people were distracted on 592 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,959 Speaker 1: their devices and this and then the other. And then 593 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: during COVID and I'm like, I, I you know, very 594 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: little agenda. Let's just talk to each other, let's just 595 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: you know, kind of have ideas, let's get to know 596 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: each other. And man, that was great and we got 597 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 1: so much out of that and so much better ideas 598 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: than I ever got my regular off site. So you know, 599 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 1: it was, you know, quite a thing. Yeah, We're in 600 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 1: a hundred and sixty locations around the country. We've talked 601 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: about how do you think about an office, and we've 602 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 1: come up with the office is a productivity tool. If 603 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: it can help you be more productive, use it. If 604 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: it can't, don't use it. It's all about productivity. It's 605 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 1: not prison. You're not being sent tense to the office. Yeah, 606 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: that's a very good that's a great metaphor. Talk about 607 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: podcasting for a minute. We're on a podcast right now. Um, 608 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: and uh, does this medium continue on this growth trajectory? 609 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 1: Does this eventually reaches many people's radio, which by the way, 610 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 1: now has the greatest weekly reach of any media in 611 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 1: the US. Is that where we're heading with podcasting? Does 612 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: it stop at all? I think that audio broadcasting is 613 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:35,800 Speaker 1: a h a big deal and going to be around forever. 614 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: It's amazing. And you know, conversations are things that people 615 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 1: really value, you know, particularly in the age of social media, 616 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 1: where which is not a great medium for conversations, right, Like, 617 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:54,240 Speaker 1: it's great for attacking each other, we're sharing little things, 618 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,839 Speaker 1: but it's not good for something like this. And so 619 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,399 Speaker 1: I think that you know, mu sick and conversations are 620 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: going to be around there's no question. And then how 621 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: you get them, you know, will change technologically. Streaming video services. 622 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: You know, I was in the cable business when the 623 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 1: great invention was we aggregated all these services together and 624 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: sold you a bundle. Then it went to a la 625 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: carte and boy, these streaming services are ala carte on steroids. 626 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: Are we going to go back the consumer beginning to 627 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,759 Speaker 1: look for something aggregated in one place as opposed to 628 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 1: having to go from one service to another service to 629 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: another service. What do you think the future holds? The 630 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:42,279 Speaker 1: value propositions of Netflix and Amazon and Disney are so 631 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 1: overwhelming that it's going to be pretty hard. These smaller 632 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 1: services is just you know, a relic of history. There 633 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:58,800 Speaker 1: will be like some set of entertainment choices, but they'll 634 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 1: all be you know, you pay a month or whatever 635 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: and you get just an amazing amount of stuff. Would 636 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 1: be my guess, buying one show at a time that 637 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 1: you like on one channel. I think it's pretty unlikely. 638 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: Talk a little bit about quick take on bio investing 639 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,399 Speaker 1: texts men super hot. You know the bio is looking 640 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,919 Speaker 1: pretty hot too. How do you think about it? Yeah, 641 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 1: so bio is gone through this tremendous breakthrough um in 642 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: a change in the way we model biology. When you 643 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 1: and I were kids, we've had this chemistry model of 644 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,360 Speaker 1: the human body, and you know that took you to 645 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 1: a certain place. But now we've got an information model, 646 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: you know, kind of based on the genome, the microbiome, epigenome. 647 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: And so if you have an information model of the 648 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 1: human body, then you can apply computer science techniques to it, 649 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: and you can apply AI to it, and that opens 650 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: up a world that is absolutely completely different. The example 651 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,959 Speaker 1: that everybody is so grateful for on that is the 652 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:11,239 Speaker 1: mRNA vaccine. So right in the old days, to make 653 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: a vaccine, we would try and conjure up like some 654 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:19,879 Speaker 1: small amount of the disease. We would manufacture it by 655 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 1: like growing it in a chicken egg, and then we 656 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,359 Speaker 1: inject you with it and hope you didn't get too sick. 657 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 1: But the mRNA vaccine, like we print a message, We 658 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: manufactured by printing a message that we send to yourself 659 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: that says, hey, build up this protein to defend against 660 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,399 Speaker 1: this virus. And then that message has gone in two 661 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 1: weeks and all you have is what your body produced. 662 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: And they're amazingly effective. That difference in precision, like we 663 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: call it drug discovery. Like imagine you did bridge discovery 664 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:55,759 Speaker 1: to figure out how to build a bridge, right, you 665 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 1: built a thousand bridges, the one that didn't collapse. That's it. 666 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 1: That's how we do drug you know, discovery. Now we 667 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: can do drug engineering. We can do so much more. 668 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 1: It's just tremendously exciting. One of the things that we 669 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:11,799 Speaker 1: think about a lot is, you know, back when you 670 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: and I grew up, like we used to get lost, right, 671 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: Like you would have to call somebody, Hey, I'm at 672 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,319 Speaker 1: this phone booth, I don't know how to get to 673 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 1: your house and stark, I don't where am I that 674 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: You never do that anymore. Like you have GPS, you 675 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,359 Speaker 1: know where you are at all times. Ten years from now, 676 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,720 Speaker 1: like we're not gonna wonder why we're sick. We're gonna 677 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,359 Speaker 1: know why we're sick every single time because we're gonna 678 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 1: be able to sequence our blood, our microbiome. We're gonna 679 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 1: have so many signals, and then we're going to have 680 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,840 Speaker 1: a I which can look at thousands of dimensions and 681 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 1: inputs very easily match us against everybody who's ever been 682 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 1: sick and say, okay, this is what you've got as 683 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,319 Speaker 1: opposed to like a human being, you know, listening to 684 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 1: your heart, taking your blood pressure and trying to figure 685 00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 1: it out. Who can only think in three dimensions. It's 686 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,919 Speaker 1: really just an amazing time in biology right now. If 687 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 1: you could go back in time give some advice to 688 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,919 Speaker 1: your twenty one year old self, what would that advice be? 689 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 1: It would probably be, you know, don't worry so much 690 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,359 Speaker 1: because it's going to turn out okay. Because I used 691 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,400 Speaker 1: to worry about everything. But then I I wonder if 692 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,800 Speaker 1: I told myself not to worry, would it turn out okay? 693 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:24,840 Speaker 1: Maybe the worry is what got me there. I always 694 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 1: loved that line. If I've known I was going to 695 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 1: be successful, I wouldn't have worked so hard. Yeah, exactly, exactly. 696 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 1: So we always end each Math and Magic episode with 697 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: a shout out to the greatest on the two sides 698 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,240 Speaker 1: of marketing and business. That's what the podcast is about. 699 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,440 Speaker 1: Math and magic, the analytical view of the math and 700 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,879 Speaker 1: the creativity. Those people just just burst out of them 701 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 1: the magic. As you think about and boy, you know 702 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:50,840 Speaker 1: a lot of them. Who would you give the shout 703 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 1: out to on the math side, and who would you 704 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 1: give it to on the magic side, on the creative side, 705 00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,879 Speaker 1: you know, I'm gonna give it to h a friend 706 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: of mine, Shaka Singre, who's got a new book coming out. 707 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: You know, he he spent nineteen years in prison and 708 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,399 Speaker 1: seven and solitary confinement for a murder that he did 709 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:16,640 Speaker 1: commit when he was nineteen years old, and he transformed 710 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 1: his life. Let I still can't understand how he did it, 711 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 1: but you know, he's come out and he's you know, 712 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:27,759 Speaker 1: just become this like amazingly successful writer and so forth. 713 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 1: But he's got this new book called Letters to the 714 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 1: Sons of Society about his two sons, one which he 715 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 1: had right as he went into prison and who he 716 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,279 Speaker 1: couldn't really raise because he was behind bars, and then 717 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,680 Speaker 1: another who he had when he came out, and they've 718 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,960 Speaker 1: had completely different paths as you would expect, and him 719 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,799 Speaker 1: trying to reconcile that. I always think of that the 720 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,520 Speaker 1: hardest thing about being creative is getting all the weight 721 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,160 Speaker 1: of the truth, particularly when the truth is filled with pain, 722 00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,719 Speaker 1: and he's gone through so much pain to get to 723 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,719 Speaker 1: the with it's just amazing. And on the on the 724 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 1: man side, I am going to give it to Jeff Bezos, 725 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: because where would we be without Amazon during the pandemic? 726 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 1: I mean, like, how miserable would that be without like 727 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:19,760 Speaker 1: the greatest logistics company ever built right in our own country, 728 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 1: giving us every single thing we needed delivered to our 729 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 1: house through everything that went wrong all the time, and 730 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:32,280 Speaker 1: by the way, keeping our entire computing infrastructure up and running. 731 00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:38,240 Speaker 1: I mean, that's like, what an amazing feat of accomplishment there, Ben, 732 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 1: you have made a huge impact on business and society. 733 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,239 Speaker 1: You've seen things no one else has seen. I'm sure 734 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,680 Speaker 1: you've got a lot more to see. Uh, and you're 735 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:51,080 Speaker 1: giving us good lessons as you go. Thanks for sharing 736 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,320 Speaker 1: with us today. Yeah, absolutely, it's great. Catching up of 737 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,920 Speaker 1: this has been a tremendous amount of fun. There are 738 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:02,080 Speaker 1: a few things I picked up in my conversation with Ben. One, 739 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,279 Speaker 1: when you lead an innovative company, you aren't just leading 740 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:09,240 Speaker 1: the company, but the industry itself. When Ben was at Netscape, 741 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,319 Speaker 1: he and his team would run into challenges where the 742 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 1: only way to keep building was to invent a new tool. 743 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,719 Speaker 1: Don't wait for problems to be solved by others. Instead, 744 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:21,239 Speaker 1: be the solution to the founder of a company is 745 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 1: often the best person to chart the path forward. Traditional 746 00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,760 Speaker 1: venture capitalists often replace a company's founder with a seasoned 747 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,200 Speaker 1: CEO who appears more prepared to scale the company. Ben 748 00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: believes it's better to support the founders to develop their 749 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,720 Speaker 1: skills and provide them with a network of support. Three. 750 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,800 Speaker 1: The best entrepreneurs are driven by more than just the 751 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,839 Speaker 1: bottom line. Ben said that most of the founders he 752 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:48,000 Speaker 1: knows are passionate about identifying problems and building innovative fixes 753 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,759 Speaker 1: for them. According to Ben, that kind of thinking is 754 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 1: one of the ways businesses can help make the world 755 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:58,600 Speaker 1: better for company culture doesn't need to be rigid. Instead, 756 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,279 Speaker 1: you should identify and then hold onto the elements of 757 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,680 Speaker 1: your company culture that adds to your competitive at that agel. 758 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,279 Speaker 1: Beyond that, it's okay of different departments, different offices, or 759 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:18,840 Speaker 1: perhaps even different coasts, two things slightly differently. I'm Bob Pittman. 760 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:24,279 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. That's it for today's episode. Thanks so 761 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:26,800 Speaker 1: much for listening to Math and Magic, a production of 762 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:30,040 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. The show is hosted by Bob Pittman. 763 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,400 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Sue Schillinger for booking and wrangling our 764 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,520 Speaker 1: wonderful talent, which is no small feat Marissa Brown for 765 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:41,080 Speaker 1: pulling research, our editor Derek Clements, our producer Morgan Levoy, 766 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:44,800 Speaker 1: our executive producer Nikki Etor, and of course Gayl Rahul, 767 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,120 Speaker 1: Eric Angel, Noel and everyone who helped bring this show 768 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,040 Speaker 1: to your ears. Until next time,