WEBVTT - Bryan Kohberger Faces Objection, Crypto Kidnappers Plead Not Guilty — and Danny Rolling Haunts ‘Scream’ Origins 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:03.760 This program features the individual opinions of the host, guests, 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:07.240 and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station, 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:11.600 its affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight. 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:22.720 Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:26.119 crime all the time. It's Wednesday, June eleventh, and we 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:29.040 have a stacked night of headlines tonight. New twists in 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:32.239 the upcoming Brian Coburger case. Will his request for a 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:35.519 delay be granted by the judge? The defense rests in 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:37.720 the Karen Reid retrial. If you can believe it. I 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:40.000 can't say it, but I can believe it. So no 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:42.640 more witnesses. This is in the final stretch. And the 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:47.320 crypto kidnappers of Manhattan were finally arranged today and some 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:49.560 of their stories are just not adding up. And also 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:53.120 later in the show, Dorno Fear, our special guest pop 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:55.880 culture crime expert, is going to be sharing with us 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:59.720 the genesis behind the screen franchise, and honestly, there's so 0:00:59.800 --> 0:01:02.880 much that more to unpack. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:05.039 head up KT Studios and I get to do that 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:08.720 every day with Courtney Armstrong, our producer and host and 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:13.199 body move in our crime analyst. Hello, Hello, hello, Hello, 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:18.520 So I mean this Brian Coburger situation, body fill us in. 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:22.280 These new developments are pretty are pretty so many. There 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:23.759 are so many new developments. 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:27.840 So you know, there's about a dozen maybe there's about 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:29.880 a dozen new documents that we still kind of have 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:32.920 to go through and like analyze. But the ones that 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:36.920 we have gone through are the motion for continuance and 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:40.920 the state's response. As you all know, Brian Coberger has 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:44.399 asked to delay the trial. It's scheduled to happen August 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:47.880 eleventh right now, but they've asked to delay it, and 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:51.760 the state finally responded, this is breaking news. And so 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:55.080 what I've done is I've taken both documents, right, and 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:58.000 I kind of just wanted to highlight why the defense 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:01.160 is asking for a continuance and how the state responded 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:04.200 if that's okay, So there's if that's yeah, okay, So 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:08.480 that's that's what we're gonna do. So basically, in Submarine, 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:12.520 the defense wants to delay the trial because they say 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:16.120 they have an incomplete review of the discovery. There's so 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:21.200 much paperwork and video and pictures and everything that they've 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:23.480 received from the state to go through that. They haven't 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:26.440 had time to go through it all. The prosecution has 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:31.160 not properly identified any exculpatory evidence. Well maybe there just 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:34.160 isn't any, right Like, just because you have discovery does 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:36.160 not mean there's anything exculpatory in that. 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:37.359 But I digress. 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:40.400 So they say more time is needed to investigate leads, 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:46.600 including potential alternative perpetrators. Additionally, they there's ongoing life history 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:50.639 and mitigation that they want to do as constitutionally required. 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:54.040 An in depth investigation into mister Coberger's life history is 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:57.320 still underway, so they want more time to do like 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:01.000 basically mister Coburger's history, you know, like how he grew 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:04.559 up and what was he diagnosed with and things like that. Additionally, 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:08.320 they say they still need to find expert witnesses that 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:11.200 have yet to be identified. And then this is the 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:14.760 one that we've been talking about prejudicial pre trial publicity 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:19.280 a Dateline NBC episode in May that we have been 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:22.920 talking about a lot featured leaks and dramatized evidence. The 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:25.680 source of those leaks may be associated with law enforcement 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:29.359 or the prosecution, and they believe it's prejudicial and will 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:32.920 affect fairness. And then another one that we've been talking about. 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:36.840 The book, right, the book that James Patterson is that 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:40.120 right has written, is scheduled to come out like a 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:43.400 week before the trial begins, so they're concerned about that. 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:47.360 And you know, the death penalty does require heightened protection. Right, 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:49.560 This is a death ped this is a capital murder case. 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:53.640 So cases that need more time and more preparation. So 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:57.280 that's the defense's argument, Okay, and you know the state responded, 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:00.720 and Bill Thompson, the prosecutor, is kind of cheeky in 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:05.160 his response. The first sentence is it is time to 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:08.400 try this case. And that's really it's so true, right, 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:09.440 And that's really. 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:10.240 With the show here. 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:15.080 It is time to try this case. We've been hearing 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:18.719 this from Ann Taylor, Brian Coberger's defense attorney for so 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:21.360 long now. I feel like we were having this conversation 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:22.520 six months ago. 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:24.000 We've had it a year ago. 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:27.280 It is impossible for this family of any of the 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:30.479 victims to move on. They really can't. And at some point, 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:34.120 isn't more time just adding more exposure. 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:36.240 Right, And that's kind of basically what the defense said. 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:38.919 The defense said, you've had over two years to prepare 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:41.120 since his arrest and your defense team. 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:43.920 Prosecution I think said that right. 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:46.320 Well, the prosecute I'm sorry, yes, yes, of course, what 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:50.080 they're saying is like the prosecution said, right, the prosecution 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:51.640 is said, I'm sorry, You're right. 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:54.120 You've had over two years to prepare since the arrest. 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:58.120 And the defense and team includes three attorneys, two investigators, 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:02.480 a mitigation specialist in multi expert witnesses already the disclosures 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:06.520 that had been made sixteen guilt phase expert reports, six 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:10.920 penalty phase expert reports, twenty one hundred pages of mitigation material, 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:14.400 fifty five witnesses, one one hundred and thirty two exhibits 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:17.039 for the penalty phase. They also say this is a 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:21.400 delay tactic based on procedures. The motion was filed after 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:24.400 the deadline expired, so the state is saying, you can't 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:27.320 even really consider this motion because the deadline has expired. 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:30.520 So that's kind of maybe something that might stick, you know, 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:33.520 judges like to stick to procedure, right. The defense failed 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:36.800 to notify the court earlier or request extensions and pre 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:41.560 trial activities proceed without mention of needing more time. There 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:44.200 and then the kind of the crux of what we've 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:48.080 kind of been going about. Is that this pre trial 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:52.520 you know, prejudicial publicity like from dateline is manageable kind 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:55.279 of wik is key for me, Yeah, go ahead and 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:58.400 delay it, but it's it's still out there. It still happened, 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:00.520 the leak still happened. More time is not going to 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:03.039 help you in this case. Not only that, more time 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:05.560 is not going to help you. That information would have 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:07.920 come up anyway. I would have to assume they've looked 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:10.040 at his phone and know what the photographs were in 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:13.440 his phone, And maybe had we tried this case at. 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:16.120 A more in a more timely way, these leaks wouldn't 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:19.840 have happened either. So again, more time gives more opportunity 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:24.200 for things to get spoiled, for jury pools to be spoiled, 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:26.760 and ultimately, I feel like this is just a tactic. 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:28.800 You know, first it was, oh, we have an alibi. 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:31.919 We got a ooh big, big alibi, and that alibi 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:35.600 kind of seems questionable. All that to be said, You know, 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:38.840 this is me talking yelling at the wall when we 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:41.440 say this to a defense attorney. You know the other 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:44.000 side to that is, of course, yeah, a person's life 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:47.440 is at stake, innocent until proven guilty this has been 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:50.480 a circus in the media, and you know, is that true? 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:54.200 Can he get a fair trial period, whether it's today, tomorrow, 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:57.880 or six months from now, that's you know, unanswerable at 0:06:57.880 --> 0:06:58.320 this point. 0:06:58.520 --> 0:06:59.960 Right now it's up to twelve jurors. 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:03.719 Well, well, when it goes finally to trial, it will be. 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:07.599 But you know, Bill Thompson, the prosecutor, was saying a 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:09.560 lot of what you said stuff, and I think it's 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:13.160 worth sharing a few more of his words. The publicity. 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:16.360 This is quotes. While the publicity surrounding this trial is 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:19.600 a challenge, defendant has not shown and cannot show, that 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:22.880 continuing this trial will make things any easier. It's just 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:25.800 as likely the delay will make it harder to seat 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:28.560 a jury, which only makes sense because the more time, 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:30.880 the more things do come out. 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:33.320 Yeah, why not ride the clock if you're his defense attorney, 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:35.440 of course I want to ride out the clock. Of course, 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:37.960 I want there to be a disruption to kids in schools. 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:40.240 We got to move locations because of the high school 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:42.480 that the jail is near. You know, they've pushed and 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:45.960 pushed and pushed so many times. The leak is unfortunate 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:48.800 because it does fire, puts fuel into the fire, right, 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:50.920 but still let's get on with the show. 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:53.720 Yes, we want to hear from you. Do you think 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:56.600 this trial deserves the delay? Give us a call eight 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:58.920 at eight three one crime or hit us on the 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:02.160 talkbacks on the iHeart Radio app and we actually have 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:03.400 a talkback right now. 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:06.240 Ooh hi True Crime tonight. 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.560 Thank you for covering the Brian Coburger case again today 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:12.480 as well. As you know, his fascination is Ted Bundy. 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:14.960 That was something I found interesting from the Dateline episode. 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:17.160 But it got me thinking. You know, as a true 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:19.880 crime fan, I google serial killers all the time and 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:23.000 I'm always listening to content about them. Makes me nervous 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:25.960 about my own Google search history. How damning do you 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:28.080 think this evidence really was? I mean, he was a 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:29.080 criminology major. 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:33.600 Yeah, that's a pretty good question and something that I've 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:37.680 actually considered quite a bit because of my own Google history. Right, 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:41.120 I don't think that the Ted Bundy searches are going 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:44.559 to be prejudicial, or I don't really think they are prejudicial. 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:47.240 Because he is a criminology student, it would be normal 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:50.679 for him to download, you know, thesis papers on Ted Bundy, 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:56.040 as Dateline suggested. You know, he downloaded the WSU professor 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:59.920 paper Ted Bundy on the Malignant Being. So it's not 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:03.959 like completely unnecessary for him or unrealistic. I'm sorry for 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:07.360 him to be downloading or even watching videos of YouTubers 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:09.959 talking about Ted Bundy. Just in my opinion, I think 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:15.040 there was much more prejudicial information in the dateline leaks, like, 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:20.600 for instance, looking for the sheath on Amazon on November fifteenth, 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:22.280 two days after the murder. 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:23.320 So I think that. 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:26.160 There are way more prejudicial things in there than that 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:26.960 Ted Bundy search. 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:29.280 But that's just my opinion. I could not agree with 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:29.760 you more. 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:32.400 Yeah, I mean, I think any of our Google searches, 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:35.400 you know, if you're if you follow any cases and 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:38.440 you're just curious about the backstory or what have you, 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:40.800 of course that gets a little tied up, and there's 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:43.720 no way you could become a PhD student without doing 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:44.760 that in criminology. 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:45.600 Agreed. 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:47.800 I totally thank you for the talk back, and again, 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:49.680 please let us know if you have anything else you 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:51.920 want to say, hit that little microphone button and. 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:53.440 Let us know. We get pretty instantly. 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:56.079 So just a quick summary on some of the evidence 0:09:56.160 --> 0:10:00.120 that we know they have against Brian Koberger so far 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:02.080 and This is just things that we just know about. 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:05.520 For instance, they have touch DNA that was found on 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:08.240 the knife sheet that was left in Mattie Mogan's bed. 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:13.280 They have eyewitnesses. Dylan Mortensen saw the intruder that night 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:15.880 and described him as being tall, with an athletic build 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:18.720 and having bushy eyebrows. This of course matches Cobrager, but 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:21.600 it also matches any number of men too, right. They 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:24.960 have surveillance footage which shows a white Hondai a Lantra 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:28.319 making suspicious movements around the victim's home at the same 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:31.680 time that the murders allegedly occurred. They have cell phone 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:34.880 evidence that shows that he was making suspicious movements around 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:36.880 the time of the murder. And you know, obviously he 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:39.840 turned off his phone during that timeframe and turned it 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:42.520 back on on the way home. They have Amazon records. 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:45.959 Now we don't know the details officially of the Amazon records. 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:50.160 We know the details of the Amazon records through dateline, 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:53.440 so that but we do know through court documents that 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:58.000 they do have Amazon records. But according to the Dateline records, 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:04.599 he searched for specifically a k bar sheath on November fifteenth, 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:07.640 two days after the murder a sheath only right, and 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:09.680 you're only really looking for a sheath if you already 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:11.719 have a knife and you need somewhere. 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:12.400 To put it right and. 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:15.840 Quadrant. 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:19.240 It makes me wonder if if you had the knife 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:20.640 on the fifteenth. 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.520 It makes me wonder. It's scary then, and where is 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:23.920 it now? 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:27.200 You know, we learned at the last hearing that was 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:31.960 on YouTube, that was televised basically that the judge said, 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:34.320 you know, when you bring the knife in, we have 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:36.520 to make sure that it's in like a display case, 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:39.120 you know, because it's dangerous. You know, it's a weapon. 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:41.720 And you know there's this big flurry like, oh my god, 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:44.240 do they have the knife? Do they have the knife? 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:46.440 Or is it like some sort of demonstration knife. 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:51.840 But it's all we're in the trial. We will continue 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:54.880 to follow this case. The defense rested today in the 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:57.520 retrial of Karen Reid. We have all the details for 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:00.319 you and we're going to dive into the prosecution sty 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:03.880 since we did the defenses already. The Crypto kidnappers were 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:06.160 arraigned today in Manhattan, and we are going to bring 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:09.400 you up to date on that and they're very serious charges. 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:12.720 And then we're joined by pop culture expert Dorono fear 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:16.199 he'll be breaking down what Hollywood films are inspired by 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:20.120 the creepiest true crime stories. Keep it here on True 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:22.040 Crime to night and don't forget to give us a 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:24.480 call eight to eight three one crime. 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:40.760 This trial, it's at rest. What will possibly happen next? Courtney? 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:41.280 Fill us in. 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:45.040 Yeah, as you said, the defense has rested in the 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:48.800 retrial of Karen Reid. If you have been living under 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:52.760 a crime free rock. Karen Reid is being retried for 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:57.240 backing over her police officer boyfriend Brian O'Keeffe with her SUV. 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:02.600 So the prosecution indicates it would not call any rebuttal 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:07.080 witnesses tomorrow. And that was late in the day. Change Actually, so, yeah, 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:07.880 that just happens. 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:11.160 That's just happen instead too, we had heard differently earlier 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:11.600 in the day. 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:14.560 That's right. And then you know there's going to be 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:19.280 the closing arguments, which I am rabid to hear, and 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:21.640 the case could be in the jury's hands by Friday. 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:25.280 Wow, how is Karen Reid keeping it together? I would 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:29.320 be so messy in my head if I was preparing 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:32.080 to potentially go away for the rest of my life. 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:32.840 That is. 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:34.520 I mean, I guess she's been doing this now for 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:37.240 over a year and this is what our thirty first 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:40.520 day on trial and this retrial, so I mean, I 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:42.240 guess you have to kind of be built for it, 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:42.880 and you. 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:44.560 Know, a day at a time, what's there is no 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:48.440 other option, that is. But what the defense rested on 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:52.840 was a biomechanical expert named Andrew Renschler, and it was 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:56.720 his second day of testimony. A couple of takeaways. When 0:13:56.720 --> 0:14:00.680 he was shown an X ray of O'Keefe's arm, he noted, 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:03.680 which is bizarre. There there is no sign of fracture 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:07.000 or even bruising. And in his testimony he said that 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:10.040 if indeed your arm is struck by a car, that's 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:13.040 hundreds of pounds of pressure, way more than you would 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:14.640 expect to cause a break, so. 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:16.880 That it killed you. And he didn't break anything, but 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:17.480 it killed you. 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:22.560 Yeah, And he, you know, he said that that it 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:24.520 didn't match, So, I mean, that's what he's saying was 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:26.680 that this man was not hit by the car. Was 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:32.920 his expert testimony, and he said that his crash reconstruction 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:37.720 tests did not match with the prosecution expert, who indicated, 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:41.600 of course that yes, their results show that John O'Keefe 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:44.360 was hit by Karen reads Eshuv, that's to be expected. 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:46.280 Of course, it's prosecution defense. 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:49.480 Your experts are Yeah, it's just expert versus expert. 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:50.440 That's right. 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:51.960 It's going to come down who do you believe? 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:52.400 You believe? 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:56.160 Yeah, who do you believe is more credible? Right? Right? 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:58.080 And it's going to come down to, like probably how 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:02.680 they presented their education, any certificates and credentials you know 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:05.760 they've got. I mean, that's what's gonna come down to, right, 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:07.240 who's more believable. 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:08.880 Yeah, or who just puts a little bit of doubt 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:11.880 in anybody's mind? Right, Because it does feel like this 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:13.880 trial has gone on for very, very long. So the 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:16.960 big ticket items, you know what, for you, Courtney, are 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:18.760 the big ticket items here at play. 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:22.200 The big ticket items at play for me are honestly 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.680 a lot of the players involved in the house and 0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:31.560 what was going on that night, what preceded John O'Keefe's dying. 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:36.880 I maintain that this, you know, poor man who has 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:41.440 lost this victim. There was no intention however he died, 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:45.840 whether it was Karen Reid backing over him, I don't 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:49.640 think that happened or just something accidental happened at this 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:54.160 house party with fellow police officers, with a lot of drinking, 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:58.640 with late nights, with kind of texts going around between 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:02.840 the group of you'd call them inappropriate if you're in 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:05.960 monogamous relationships, And it just seems like it was a 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:09.320 lot of mess at once, and I think things happened accidentally. 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:12.600 What what is your biggest thing in your mind? 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:15.720 Body, Well, I believe she's guilty. 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:18.800 You know, we disagree on that, and so the biggest 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:21.800 part for me is her backing up at the same 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:23.640 time basically his phone stopped moving. 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:28.600 I think that's pretty damning. But hasn't that been debated? 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:31.080 It has been debated, But I believe debate. 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:33.600 I believe the prosecution expert more than I believe the 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:37.000 defense expert. Fair and so like kind of like how 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:39.440 the jury would like, it's going to really depend on 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:42.400 who you believe. So who were the players that you 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:45.000 think are super significant? Let's just go through the little 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:48.000 list of that night. Okay, So read we have Karen 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:51.640 Reid and her you know, her boyfriend and by all, 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:55.320 by all accounts, he was the loveliest guy, so beloved 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:58.400 by his family, all of his friends loved him. So Johnna, 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:01.960 you know, this is somebody who's life we miss. They 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:05.560 are drinking at a bar with who the Alberts, right, 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:09.760 that's who owns the house that this event happened in 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:15.280 front of. We have Jen McCabe, Is she there, Jen McCabe, Yes, 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:16.480 Jenn McCabe is the friend. 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:19.080 She's the one that rides with Karen Reid at the 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:21.840 scene when they actually the more governed his body. And 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:24.240 then there's this Brian Higgins. There's lots of Brian's in 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:26.400 this story, so that sometimes gets confusing. 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:28.120 And they're all cops by the way. 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:31.520 So Brian Higgins, he's always been a character that was 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:33.560 brought into the equation very early on. 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:35.080 He was both a friend. 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:37.320 He's also the one that was a cop that left 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:41.200 the scene to go to the precinct to fill out 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:43.960 some administrative paperwork under. 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:47.240 One thirty am in the morning at the Canton Police Department. 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:48.320 Why would he do that? 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:52.080 That's fun, That's an interesting aside, right, And he also 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:55.600 was the one that was texting with Karen about how 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.720 hot she was and they were having like a flirty exchange. 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:04.200 Unbeeva beknowns to John O'Keeffe, So that is strange. She's 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:08.160 also seen on the surveillance footage at the bar when 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:10.920 they were all there boozing it up, preparing to leave 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:13.000 for the night. You could sort of see we talked 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:14.919 about this, say, you know, two nights ago, when you 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:18.640 could see them squaring off Brian Higgins and the victim. 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:22.639 They were either goofing around, either they were drunkards or 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:26.600 there was a little you know, undercurrent temper, yeah, or 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:28.760 like one of them is texting the other one's girlfriend. 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:33.240 So is there something happening under the surface there. I 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:35.560 don't know, Like some parts of that just doesn't add up. 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:37.879 And if police officers are the ones actually on the 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:40.679 scene of the crime, why would it possibly be handled 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:41.200 so messy? 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:45.240 That's what gets me. I mean the solo cups, That's 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:49.480 what gets me. Is again, I agree the investigation was 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:53.439 horribly handled. And if listen, I think Karen Read's guilty. 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:55.000 I think she hit him with her car. I think 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:56.760 it was an accident. I don't even think she realized 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:59.720 she did it. But I do expect there to be 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:02.280 an guilty verdict in this case. And I won't be 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:05.040 disappointed because I don't think the prosecution did a great job. 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:08.240 Well, I want to lay out a couple of the 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:12.000 prosecution's points because it's fair and balanced. It Yeah, did so, 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:14.840 and then we're going to get back into the players, 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:15.560 because I do think. 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:17.600 There is I do too. They're very interesting. 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:22.600 But the prosecution strategy, they're actually using clips from Karen 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:25.800 Reid's own documentary called A Body in the Snow the 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:29.359 Trial of Karen Reid. They're using snippets of that and 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:33.600 other media appearances against her. And in terms of their evidence, 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:38.840 they've presented several of the first responders testified that Karen 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:42.000 Reid said, quote, I hit him after she found O'Keefe. 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:45.920 That was explained away differently on the defense, but that's 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:50.680 the prosecution. They also showed the jurors pieces of Reed's 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:53.639 broken tail light, saying that it was damaged when she 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:57.200 hit O'Keefe. And they're experts, I mean, they are credentialed. 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:03.160 They also said DNA evidence showed that o'keef's DNA likely 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:05.720 match samples that was found on the broken tail light 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:10.119 and a cocktail glass near his body, which that doesn't 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:12.240 match the story of him walking out of the last 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:14.879 bar they were at before arriving at the house and 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:17.480 having a glass in his hand. And then one of 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:22.160 the last things is the data from Karen Reid's car 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:25.760 when she reversed and allegedly hit him. You know, she 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:29.040 was going twenty four miles an hour. I don't even 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:32.760 think that was disputed. Normally we reverse at about two 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:35.760 to five miles per hour, so that's a fast one. 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:39.199 And then Body you had brought up earlier that it 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:43.400 was within seconds of that backup on the lexus that 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:47.199 John O'Keefe's phone did lock for the last time. So 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:50.639 the prosecution I believe their stipulation is that he was 0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:52.760 hit and the phone went out right. 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:54.920