Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the host, guests,
Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
Speaker 1: its affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.
Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
Speaker 2: crime all the time. It's Wednesday, June eleventh, and we
Speaker 2: have a stacked night of headlines tonight. New twists in
Speaker 2: the upcoming Brian Coburger case. Will his request for a
Speaker 2: delay be granted by the judge? The defense rests in
Speaker 2: the Karen Reid retrial. If you can believe it. I
Speaker 2: can't say it, but I can believe it. So no
Speaker 2: more witnesses. This is in the final stretch. And the
Speaker 2: crypto kidnappers of Manhattan were finally arranged today and some
Speaker 2: of their stories are just not adding up. And also
Speaker 2: later in the show, Dorno Fear, our special guest pop
Speaker 2: culture crime expert, is going to be sharing with us
Speaker 2: the genesis behind the screen franchise, and honestly, there's so
Speaker 2: much that more to unpack. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I
Speaker 2: head up KT Studios and I get to do that
Speaker 2: every day with Courtney Armstrong, our producer and host and
Speaker 2: body move in our crime analyst. Hello, Hello, hello, Hello,
Speaker 2: So I mean this Brian Coburger situation, body fill us in.
Speaker 2: These new developments are pretty are pretty so many. There
Speaker 2: are so many new developments.
Speaker 3: So you know, there's about a dozen maybe there's about
Speaker 3: a dozen new documents that we still kind of have
Speaker 3: to go through and like analyze. But the ones that
Speaker 3: we have gone through are the motion for continuance and
Speaker 3: the state's response. As you all know, Brian Coberger has
Speaker 3: asked to delay the trial. It's scheduled to happen August
Speaker 3: eleventh right now, but they've asked to delay it, and
Speaker 3: the state finally responded, this is breaking news. And so
Speaker 3: what I've done is I've taken both documents, right, and
Speaker 3: I kind of just wanted to highlight why the defense
Speaker 3: is asking for a continuance and how the state responded
Speaker 3: if that's okay, So there's if that's yeah, okay, So
Speaker 3: that's that's what we're gonna do. So basically, in Submarine,
Speaker 3: the defense wants to delay the trial because they say
Speaker 3: they have an incomplete review of the discovery. There's so
Speaker 3: much paperwork and video and pictures and everything that they've
Speaker 3: received from the state to go through that. They haven't
Speaker 3: had time to go through it all. The prosecution has
Speaker 3: not properly identified any exculpatory evidence. Well maybe there just
Speaker 3: isn't any, right Like, just because you have discovery does
Speaker 3: not mean there's anything exculpatory in that.
Speaker 4: But I digress.
Speaker 3: So they say more time is needed to investigate leads,
Speaker 3: including potential alternative perpetrators. Additionally, they there's ongoing life history
Speaker 3: and mitigation that they want to do as constitutionally required.
Speaker 3: An in depth investigation into mister Coberger's life history is
Speaker 3: still underway, so they want more time to do like
Speaker 3: basically mister Coburger's history, you know, like how he grew
Speaker 3: up and what was he diagnosed with and things like that. Additionally,
Speaker 3: they say they still need to find expert witnesses that
Speaker 3: have yet to be identified. And then this is the
Speaker 3: one that we've been talking about prejudicial pre trial publicity
Speaker 3: a Dateline NBC episode in May that we have been
Speaker 3: talking about a lot featured leaks and dramatized evidence. The
Speaker 3: source of those leaks may be associated with law enforcement
Speaker 3: or the prosecution, and they believe it's prejudicial and will
Speaker 3: affect fairness. And then another one that we've been talking about.
Speaker 3: The book, right, the book that James Patterson is that
Speaker 3: right has written, is scheduled to come out like a
Speaker 3: week before the trial begins, so they're concerned about that.
Speaker 3: And you know, the death penalty does require heightened protection. Right,
Speaker 3: This is a death ped this is a capital murder case.
Speaker 3: So cases that need more time and more preparation. So
Speaker 3: that's the defense's argument, Okay, and you know the state responded,
Speaker 3: and Bill Thompson, the prosecutor, is kind of cheeky in
Speaker 3: his response. The first sentence is it is time to
Speaker 3: try this case. And that's really it's so true, right,
Speaker 3: And that's really.
Speaker 4: With the show here.
Speaker 2: It is time to try this case. We've been hearing
Speaker 2: this from Ann Taylor, Brian Coberger's defense attorney for so
Speaker 2: long now. I feel like we were having this conversation
Speaker 2: six months ago.
Speaker 4: We've had it a year ago.
Speaker 2: It is impossible for this family of any of the
Speaker 2: victims to move on. They really can't. And at some point,
Speaker 2: isn't more time just adding more exposure.
Speaker 3: Right, And that's kind of basically what the defense said.
Speaker 3: The defense said, you've had over two years to prepare
Speaker 3: since his arrest and your defense team.
Speaker 5: Prosecution I think said that right.
Speaker 2: Well, the prosecute I'm sorry, yes, yes, of course, what
Speaker 2: they're saying is like the prosecution said, right, the prosecution
Speaker 2: is said, I'm sorry, You're right.
Speaker 3: You've had over two years to prepare since the arrest.
Speaker 3: And the defense and team includes three attorneys, two investigators,
Speaker 3: a mitigation specialist in multi expert witnesses already the disclosures
Speaker 3: that had been made sixteen guilt phase expert reports, six
Speaker 3: penalty phase expert reports, twenty one hundred pages of mitigation material,
Speaker 3: fifty five witnesses, one one hundred and thirty two exhibits
Speaker 3: for the penalty phase. They also say this is a
Speaker 3: delay tactic based on procedures. The motion was filed after
Speaker 3: the deadline expired, so the state is saying, you can't
Speaker 3: even really consider this motion because the deadline has expired.
Speaker 3: So that's kind of maybe something that might stick, you know,
Speaker 3: judges like to stick to procedure, right. The defense failed
Speaker 3: to notify the court earlier or request extensions and pre
Speaker 3: trial activities proceed without mention of needing more time. There
Speaker 3: and then the kind of the crux of what we've
Speaker 3: kind of been going about. Is that this pre trial
Speaker 3: you know, prejudicial publicity like from dateline is manageable kind
Speaker 3: of wik is key for me, Yeah, go ahead and
Speaker 3: delay it, but it's it's still out there. It still happened,
Speaker 3: the leak still happened. More time is not going to
Speaker 3: help you in this case. Not only that, more time
Speaker 3: is not going to help you. That information would have
Speaker 3: come up anyway. I would have to assume they've looked
Speaker 3: at his phone and know what the photographs were in
Speaker 3: his phone, And maybe had we tried this case at.
Speaker 2: A more in a more timely way, these leaks wouldn't
Speaker 2: have happened either. So again, more time gives more opportunity
Speaker 2: for things to get spoiled, for jury pools to be spoiled,
Speaker 2: and ultimately, I feel like this is just a tactic.
Speaker 2: You know, first it was, oh, we have an alibi.
Speaker 2: We got a ooh big, big alibi, and that alibi
Speaker 2: kind of seems questionable. All that to be said, You know,
Speaker 2: this is me talking yelling at the wall when we
Speaker 2: say this to a defense attorney. You know the other
Speaker 2: side to that is, of course, yeah, a person's life
Speaker 2: is at stake, innocent until proven guilty this has been
Speaker 2: a circus in the media, and you know, is that true?
Speaker 2: Can he get a fair trial period, whether it's today, tomorrow,
Speaker 2: or six months from now, that's you know, unanswerable at
Speaker 2: this point.
Speaker 4: Right now it's up to twelve jurors.
Speaker 5: Well, well, when it goes finally to trial, it will be.
Speaker 5: But you know, Bill Thompson, the prosecutor, was saying a
Speaker 5: lot of what you said stuff, and I think it's
Speaker 5: worth sharing a few more of his words. The publicity.
Speaker 5: This is quotes. While the publicity surrounding this trial is
Speaker 5: a challenge, defendant has not shown and cannot show, that
Speaker 5: continuing this trial will make things any easier. It's just
Speaker 5: as likely the delay will make it harder to seat
Speaker 5: a jury, which only makes sense because the more time,
Speaker 5: the more things do come out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, why not ride the clock if you're his defense attorney,
Speaker 2: of course I want to ride out the clock. Of course,
Speaker 2: I want there to be a disruption to kids in schools.
Speaker 2: We got to move locations because of the high school
Speaker 2: that the jail is near. You know, they've pushed and
Speaker 2: pushed and pushed so many times. The leak is unfortunate
Speaker 2: because it does fire, puts fuel into the fire, right,
Speaker 2: but still let's get on with the show.
Speaker 5: Yes, we want to hear from you. Do you think
Speaker 5: this trial deserves the delay? Give us a call eight
Speaker 5: at eight three one crime or hit us on the
Speaker 5: talkbacks on the iHeart Radio app and we actually have
Speaker 5: a talkback right now.
Speaker 4: Ooh hi True Crime tonight.
Speaker 6: Thank you for covering the Brian Coburger case again today
Speaker 6: as well. As you know, his fascination is Ted Bundy.
Speaker 6: That was something I found interesting from the Dateline episode.
Speaker 6: But it got me thinking. You know, as a true
Speaker 6: crime fan, I google serial killers all the time and
Speaker 6: I'm always listening to content about them. Makes me nervous
Speaker 6: about my own Google search history. How damning do you
Speaker 6: think this evidence really was? I mean, he was a
Speaker 6: criminology major.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a pretty good question and something that I've
Speaker 3: actually considered quite a bit because of my own Google history. Right,
Speaker 3: I don't think that the Ted Bundy searches are going
Speaker 3: to be prejudicial, or I don't really think they are prejudicial.
Speaker 3: Because he is a criminology student, it would be normal
Speaker 3: for him to download, you know, thesis papers on Ted Bundy,
Speaker 3: as Dateline suggested. You know, he downloaded the WSU professor
Speaker 3: paper Ted Bundy on the Malignant Being. So it's not
Speaker 3: like completely unnecessary for him or unrealistic. I'm sorry for
Speaker 3: him to be downloading or even watching videos of YouTubers
Speaker 3: talking about Ted Bundy. Just in my opinion, I think
Speaker 3: there was much more prejudicial information in the dateline leaks, like,
Speaker 3: for instance, looking for the sheath on Amazon on November fifteenth,
Speaker 3: two days after the murder.
Speaker 4: So I think that.
Speaker 3: There are way more prejudicial things in there than that
Speaker 3: Ted Bundy search.
Speaker 4: But that's just my opinion. I could not agree with
Speaker 4: you more.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think any of our Google searches,
Speaker 2: you know, if you're if you follow any cases and
Speaker 2: you're just curious about the backstory or what have you,
Speaker 2: of course that gets a little tied up, and there's
Speaker 2: no way you could become a PhD student without doing
Speaker 2: that in criminology.
Speaker 4: Agreed.
Speaker 3: I totally thank you for the talk back, and again,
Speaker 3: please let us know if you have anything else you
Speaker 3: want to say, hit that little microphone button and.
Speaker 4: Let us know. We get pretty instantly.
Speaker 3: So just a quick summary on some of the evidence
Speaker 3: that we know they have against Brian Koberger so far
Speaker 3: and This is just things that we just know about.
Speaker 3: For instance, they have touch DNA that was found on
Speaker 3: the knife sheet that was left in Mattie Mogan's bed.
Speaker 3: They have eyewitnesses. Dylan Mortensen saw the intruder that night
Speaker 3: and described him as being tall, with an athletic build
Speaker 3: and having bushy eyebrows. This of course matches Cobrager, but
Speaker 3: it also matches any number of men too, right. They
Speaker 3: have surveillance footage which shows a white Hondai a Lantra
Speaker 3: making suspicious movements around the victim's home at the same
Speaker 3: time that the murders allegedly occurred. They have cell phone
Speaker 3: evidence that shows that he was making suspicious movements around
Speaker 3: the time of the murder. And you know, obviously he
Speaker 3: turned off his phone during that timeframe and turned it
Speaker 3: back on on the way home. They have Amazon records.
Speaker 3: Now we don't know the details officially of the Amazon records.
Speaker 3: We know the details of the Amazon records through dateline,
Speaker 3: so that but we do know through court documents that
Speaker 3: they do have Amazon records. But according to the Dateline records,
Speaker 3: he searched for specifically a k bar sheath on November fifteenth,
Speaker 3: two days after the murder a sheath only right, and
Speaker 3: you're only really looking for a sheath if you already
Speaker 3: have a knife and you need somewhere.
Speaker 4: To put it right and.
Speaker 5: Quadrant.
Speaker 3: It makes me wonder if if you had the knife
Speaker 3: on the fifteenth.
Speaker 4: It makes me wonder. It's scary then, and where is
Speaker 4: it now?
Speaker 3: You know, we learned at the last hearing that was
Speaker 3: on YouTube, that was televised basically that the judge said,
Speaker 3: you know, when you bring the knife in, we have
Speaker 3: to make sure that it's in like a display case,
Speaker 3: you know, because it's dangerous. You know, it's a weapon.
Speaker 3: And you know there's this big flurry like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: do they have the knife? Do they have the knife?
Speaker 3: Or is it like some sort of demonstration knife.
Speaker 5: But it's all we're in the trial. We will continue
Speaker 5: to follow this case. The defense rested today in the
Speaker 5: retrial of Karen Reid. We have all the details for
Speaker 5: you and we're going to dive into the prosecution sty
Speaker 5: since we did the defenses already. The Crypto kidnappers were
Speaker 5: arraigned today in Manhattan, and we are going to bring
Speaker 5: you up to date on that and they're very serious charges.
Speaker 5: And then we're joined by pop culture expert Dorono fear
Speaker 5: he'll be breaking down what Hollywood films are inspired by
Speaker 5: the creepiest true crime stories. Keep it here on True
Speaker 5: Crime to night and don't forget to give us a
Speaker 5: call eight to eight three one crime.
Speaker 2: This trial, it's at rest. What will possibly happen next? Courtney?
Speaker 2: Fill us in.
Speaker 5: Yeah, as you said, the defense has rested in the
Speaker 5: retrial of Karen Reid. If you have been living under
Speaker 5: a crime free rock. Karen Reid is being retried for
Speaker 5: backing over her police officer boyfriend Brian O'Keeffe with her SUV.
Speaker 5: So the prosecution indicates it would not call any rebuttal
Speaker 5: witnesses tomorrow. And that was late in the day. Change Actually, so, yeah,
Speaker 5: that just happens.
Speaker 2: That's just happen instead too, we had heard differently earlier
Speaker 2: in the day.
Speaker 5: That's right. And then you know there's going to be
Speaker 5: the closing arguments, which I am rabid to hear, and
Speaker 5: the case could be in the jury's hands by Friday.
Speaker 2: Wow, how is Karen Reid keeping it together? I would
Speaker 2: be so messy in my head if I was preparing
Speaker 2: to potentially go away for the rest of my life.
Speaker 7: That is.
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess she's been doing this now for
Speaker 2: over a year and this is what our thirty first
Speaker 2: day on trial and this retrial, so I mean, I
Speaker 2: guess you have to kind of be built for it,
Speaker 2: and you.
Speaker 5: Know, a day at a time, what's there is no
Speaker 5: other option, that is. But what the defense rested on
Speaker 5: was a biomechanical expert named Andrew Renschler, and it was
Speaker 5: his second day of testimony. A couple of takeaways. When
Speaker 5: he was shown an X ray of O'Keefe's arm, he noted,
Speaker 5: which is bizarre. There there is no sign of fracture
Speaker 5: or even bruising. And in his testimony he said that
Speaker 5: if indeed your arm is struck by a car, that's
Speaker 5: hundreds of pounds of pressure, way more than you would
Speaker 5: expect to cause a break, so.
Speaker 4: That it killed you. And he didn't break anything, but
Speaker 4: it killed you.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And he, you know, he said that that it
Speaker 5: didn't match, So, I mean, that's what he's saying was
Speaker 5: that this man was not hit by the car. Was
Speaker 5: his expert testimony, and he said that his crash reconstruction
Speaker 5: tests did not match with the prosecution expert, who indicated,
Speaker 5: of course that yes, their results show that John O'Keefe
Speaker 5: was hit by Karen reads Eshuv, that's to be expected.
Speaker 5: Of course, it's prosecution defense.
Speaker 2: Your experts are Yeah, it's just expert versus expert.
Speaker 8: That's right.
Speaker 4: It's going to come down who do you believe?
Speaker 7: You believe?
Speaker 4: Yeah, who do you believe is more credible? Right? Right?
Speaker 3: And it's going to come down to, like probably how
Speaker 3: they presented their education, any certificates and credentials you know
Speaker 3: they've got. I mean, that's what's gonna come down to, right,
Speaker 3: who's more believable.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or who just puts a little bit of doubt
Speaker 2: in anybody's mind? Right, Because it does feel like this
Speaker 2: trial has gone on for very, very long. So the
Speaker 2: big ticket items, you know what, for you, Courtney, are
Speaker 2: the big ticket items here at play.
Speaker 5: The big ticket items at play for me are honestly
Speaker 5: a lot of the players involved in the house and
Speaker 5: what was going on that night, what preceded John O'Keefe's dying.
Speaker 5: I maintain that this, you know, poor man who has
Speaker 5: lost this victim. There was no intention however he died,
Speaker 5: whether it was Karen Reid backing over him, I don't
Speaker 5: think that happened or just something accidental happened at this
Speaker 5: house party with fellow police officers, with a lot of drinking,
Speaker 5: with late nights, with kind of texts going around between
Speaker 5: the group of you'd call them inappropriate if you're in
Speaker 5: monogamous relationships, And it just seems like it was a
Speaker 5: lot of mess at once, and I think things happened accidentally.
Speaker 5: What what is your biggest thing in your mind?
Speaker 4: Body, Well, I believe she's guilty.
Speaker 3: You know, we disagree on that, and so the biggest
Speaker 3: part for me is her backing up at the same
Speaker 3: time basically his phone stopped moving.
Speaker 4: I think that's pretty damning. But hasn't that been debated?
Speaker 4: It has been debated, But I believe debate.
Speaker 3: I believe the prosecution expert more than I believe the
Speaker 3: defense expert. Fair and so like kind of like how
Speaker 3: the jury would like, it's going to really depend on
Speaker 3: who you believe. So who were the players that you
Speaker 3: think are super significant? Let's just go through the little
Speaker 3: list of that night. Okay, So read we have Karen
Speaker 3: Reid and her you know, her boyfriend and by all,
Speaker 3: by all accounts, he was the loveliest guy, so beloved
Speaker 3: by his family, all of his friends loved him. So Johnna,
Speaker 3: you know, this is somebody who's life we miss. They
Speaker 3: are drinking at a bar with who the Alberts, right,
Speaker 3: that's who owns the house that this event happened in
Speaker 3: front of. We have Jen McCabe, Is she there, Jen McCabe, Yes,
Speaker 3: Jenn McCabe is the friend.
Speaker 2: She's the one that rides with Karen Reid at the
Speaker 2: scene when they actually the more governed his body. And
Speaker 2: then there's this Brian Higgins. There's lots of Brian's in
Speaker 2: this story, so that sometimes gets confusing.
Speaker 4: And they're all cops by the way.
Speaker 2: So Brian Higgins, he's always been a character that was
Speaker 2: brought into the equation very early on.
Speaker 4: He was both a friend.
Speaker 2: He's also the one that was a cop that left
Speaker 2: the scene to go to the precinct to fill out
Speaker 2: some administrative paperwork under.
Speaker 5: One thirty am in the morning at the Canton Police Department.
Speaker 4: Why would he do that?
Speaker 2: That's fun, That's an interesting aside, right, And he also
Speaker 2: was the one that was texting with Karen about how
Speaker 2: hot she was and they were having like a flirty exchange.
Speaker 2: Unbeeva beknowns to John O'Keeffe, So that is strange. She's
Speaker 2: also seen on the surveillance footage at the bar when
Speaker 2: they were all there boozing it up, preparing to leave
Speaker 2: for the night. You could sort of see we talked
Speaker 2: about this, say, you know, two nights ago, when you
Speaker 2: could see them squaring off Brian Higgins and the victim.
Speaker 2: They were either goofing around, either they were drunkards or
Speaker 2: there was a little you know, undercurrent temper, yeah, or
Speaker 2: like one of them is texting the other one's girlfriend.
Speaker 2: So is there something happening under the surface there. I
Speaker 2: don't know, Like some parts of that just doesn't add up.
Speaker 2: And if police officers are the ones actually on the
Speaker 2: scene of the crime, why would it possibly be handled
Speaker 2: so messy?
Speaker 3: That's what gets me. I mean the solo cups, That's
Speaker 3: what gets me. Is again, I agree the investigation was
Speaker 3: horribly handled. And if listen, I think Karen Read's guilty.
Speaker 3: I think she hit him with her car. I think
Speaker 3: it was an accident. I don't even think she realized
Speaker 3: she did it. But I do expect there to be
Speaker 3: an guilty verdict in this case. And I won't be
Speaker 3: disappointed because I don't think the prosecution did a great job.
Speaker 5: Well, I want to lay out a couple of the
Speaker 5: prosecution's points because it's fair and balanced. It Yeah, did so,
Speaker 5: and then we're going to get back into the players,
Speaker 5: because I do think.
Speaker 4: There is I do too. They're very interesting.
Speaker 5: But the prosecution strategy, they're actually using clips from Karen
Speaker 5: Reid's own documentary called A Body in the Snow the
Speaker 5: Trial of Karen Reid. They're using snippets of that and
Speaker 5: other media appearances against her. And in terms of their evidence,
Speaker 5: they've presented several of the first responders testified that Karen
Speaker 5: Reid said, quote, I hit him after she found O'Keefe.
Speaker 5: That was explained away differently on the defense, but that's
Speaker 5: the prosecution. They also showed the jurors pieces of Reed's
Speaker 5: broken tail light, saying that it was damaged when she
Speaker 5: hit O'Keefe. And they're experts, I mean, they are credentialed.
Speaker 5: They also said DNA evidence showed that o'keef's DNA likely
Speaker 5: match samples that was found on the broken tail light
Speaker 5: and a cocktail glass near his body, which that doesn't
Speaker 5: match the story of him walking out of the last
Speaker 5: bar they were at before arriving at the house and
Speaker 5: having a glass in his hand. And then one of
Speaker 5: the last things is the data from Karen Reid's car
Speaker 5: when she reversed and allegedly hit him. You know, she
Speaker 5: was going twenty four miles an hour. I don't even
Speaker 5: think that was disputed. Normally we reverse at about two
Speaker 5: to five miles per hour, so that's a fast one.
Speaker 5: And then Body you had brought up earlier that it
Speaker 5: was within seconds of that backup on the lexus that
Speaker 5: John O'Keefe's phone did lock for the last time. So
Speaker 5: the prosecution I believe their stipulation is that he was
Speaker 5: hit and the phone went out right.
Speaker 4: Two things to add to that.
Speaker 2: You know Jen da cabe, who was one of the
Speaker 2: players we were just talking about, she's the one that
Speaker 2: said on the stand that she heard Karen say I
Speaker 2: hit him.
Speaker 4: I hit him.
Speaker 2: Basically, Karen and Jen McCabe arrived at the scene, they
Speaker 2: went back looking for him and they ultimately find him
Speaker 2: in the snow in the early morning. And that's pretty
Speaker 2: damning testimony, right, like did she confess at the scene.
Speaker 2: And then the other side to that is people are saying, no,
Speaker 2: she said I didn't hit him. I didn't hit him,
Speaker 2: it's you know, it's a blizzard, there is distance between them.
Speaker 4: It's hysterical.
Speaker 2: You know, these are hysterical scenarios, right, So is that
Speaker 2: explain awayable?
Speaker 4: What about the darn dog?
Speaker 2: Why were all of these texts also being deleted amongst
Speaker 2: the friends, right, all of them police officers. Why would
Speaker 2: you do that? Why were their time lapses? Why was
Speaker 2: the house not searched? You know, some of these basic
Speaker 2: things that would have been happening in any other investigation. Frankly,
Speaker 2: in a house full of cops, it just didn't happen.
Speaker 2: And it's really to their detriment. Unfortunately, whether there was
Speaker 2: risky business or any trouble in paradise behind closed doors
Speaker 2: in that house, we'll never really know, but will really
Speaker 2: never not know if they were involved, because they just
Speaker 2: really handled it poorly.
Speaker 4: They handled it terribly cops. And I'm not a pilot.
Speaker 2: You don't expect me to land a plane, right, That
Speaker 2: would be unsurprising if I crash a plane if I'm unlicensed.
Speaker 4: But like, honestly, these guys are pilots. You know.
Speaker 2: This is the people that know how to process a
Speaker 2: scene better than anyone.
Speaker 3: Well, are they homicide cops or they like beat cops.
Speaker 4: I really don't know.
Speaker 2: There beat cops, I don't know. And ATF and like
Speaker 2: very oh yeah, well trained. You know those are smart
Speaker 2: by all accounts, seasoned, seasoned police officers. Yeah, exactly, this
Speaker 2: was a major thing. And why not, you know, why
Speaker 2: not call in more help. It's confusing to me. It's
Speaker 2: so confusing to me that I feel more confused today
Speaker 2: than I did thirty one days ago. Really, yeah, it
Speaker 2: does confuse me. Do you think it was something that
Speaker 2: happened inside the home? I do, really, whether accidentally or otherwise.
Speaker 2: My personal opinion, By the way, you know, this is
Speaker 2: an opinion of many, I'm sure. Please we want to
Speaker 2: hear yours too, So call and disagree. Eight eight eighty
Speaker 2: three to one Crime. I think there was something fishing
Speaker 2: in the house.
Speaker 3: Well, we're going to be back more with more Karen Reid,
Speaker 3: and we're going to deep dive some of the key
Speaker 3: players that we were talking about. Then the alleged crypto kidnappers.
Speaker 3: You guys, this is the update is kind of crazy.
Speaker 3: I'm going to be breaking down all things Ted Bundy,
Speaker 3: stay right here True Crime tonight.
Speaker 4: Back to Karen Reid.
Speaker 2: So, Courtney, you were kind of going through some of
Speaker 2: the players here and we were all theorizing on what
Speaker 2: could have happened.
Speaker 5: Yes, absolutely, we actually did just have a call from
Speaker 5: the teen. Yeah, she wasn't able to stay on the line.
Speaker 5: Her question was what's next if Karen Reid's found guilty?
Speaker 5: What's next in the process, And Tina, that's a great question. Body,
Speaker 5: you want to take just the real, simplified version of
Speaker 5: what goes on.
Speaker 4: She goes to jail. I think she goes straight to prison.
Speaker 4: I don't think so. She will Yep, she will.
Speaker 3: Be handcuffed in court and taken to jail, and then
Speaker 3: they'll be you know, they'll be obviously there'll be appeals,
Speaker 3: they'll be sentencing, there'll be all that. But she will
Speaker 3: be handcuffed in court and taking the jail if she's
Speaker 3: sound guilty. If she's sound guilty, that's right, And there's
Speaker 3: no telling, there's no telling what's going to happen.
Speaker 2: But yeah, she'll go to jail forever. Honestly, like this
Speaker 2: just goes think about that, Well, well.
Speaker 5: Then we'll see the whole sentencing. Yeah, there's a lot,
Speaker 5: but yeah, Tina, we will be glued to what has happening.
Speaker 3: I mean obviously prior to that, you know her. You know,
Speaker 3: they'll be closing arguments over the next couple of days,
Speaker 3: probably by Friday, they'll have you know, the jury will
Speaker 3: have it that matt might go a couple of days
Speaker 3: and then she'll go to jail.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So, Stephanie, we were talking about the players who did
Speaker 5: not testify this time, and one of those is Brian Higgins.
Speaker 5: He testified in the initial trial but not in this one,
Speaker 5: and he is one of what the lynchpins for me
Speaker 5: of why I actually think Karen Rei did not do
Speaker 5: it because Brian Higgins atf agent who was at the
Speaker 5: house party. He told the investigators, yeah, this was the
Speaker 5: one am to complete the paperwork. But you see this
Speaker 5: footage and he goes in, and the defense argues, I
Speaker 5: feel successfully that the video suggests he was already orchestrating
Speaker 5: the cover up at one thirty am that night. Also,
Speaker 5: what solidified that for me was, I don't know if
Speaker 5: you guys remember the testimony of Kelly Dever. She's a
Speaker 5: former Canton police officer, so she initially told authorities that
Speaker 5: she saw Higgins and the Canton Police chief in the
Speaker 5: sally Port the garage for quote, a suspiciously long amount
Speaker 5: of time after the death, and then later Kelly recanted
Speaker 5: that that seems suspicious.
Speaker 2: Why would they be doing that in the middle of
Speaker 2: the night, after a heavy night of drinking, in the
Speaker 2: middle of a blizzard. Why would you go to your
Speaker 2: office to do some administrative paperwork.
Speaker 4: That just doesn't add up.
Speaker 2: This is where, unfortunately, it's like almost both things can
Speaker 2: be true, But why the cover up. Definitely something is
Speaker 2: being covered up, right, So either they're piling on or
Speaker 2: covering up. But the Shenanigans of that night, you know,
Speaker 2: we had mentioned the solo cups earlier. They literally started
Speaker 2: taking specimens from this said crime scene and put it
Speaker 2: in red solo cups, like the kind you drink beer
Speaker 2: from a keg out of those solo cups.
Speaker 4: That is not like sanitizing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, no, we don't do zippers and gloves
Speaker 2: like you see in every episode of CSI. It's a
Speaker 2: very sacred place, a death scene that has to be
Speaker 2: handled properly and carefully. It matters so deeply for a
Speaker 2: trial ahead. So why are they not doing a proper search?
Speaker 2: Why is the homeowner's house up for sale. Why is
Speaker 2: the dog? That's question suddenly gone. Why were there all
Speaker 2: these butt dials too? Between the owner of the house
Speaker 2: and this Brian And remember they were like on the
Speaker 2: stand he was this is in the first trial. They
Speaker 2: were like, uh, did you call anybody after the murders? No,
Speaker 2: not a single person knew all these all these texts.
Speaker 2: They're like, oh, there's a I was butt dialing everybody.
Speaker 2: The whole house was butt dialing each other. It just
Speaker 2: seems preposterous, and it seemed as though potentially this group
Speaker 2: of men were above the law, and whether you are
Speaker 2: part of law enforcement or not, that's never really the case.
Speaker 2: And it's just so unfortunate because I know there's so
Speaker 2: many hard working officers in that department and in that
Speaker 2: area that are are you know now kind of there's
Speaker 2: a stink on it, for sure, absolutely.
Speaker 5: And you know, Stephanie, you mentioned all the butt dials
Speaker 5: going on and alleged data wiped from certain phones before
Speaker 5: they were handed over. Another phone thing, and this was
Speaker 5: Jennifer McCabe who were speaking about earlier. She is the
Speaker 5: woman who in fact went with Karen Reid and was
Speaker 5: in the car when Karen read when they came upon
Speaker 5: John O'Keefe's body at approximately am. Riddle me this at
Speaker 5: two thirty seven am. Why did she write this is
Speaker 5: her Google search? How long? There's a typo? But how
Speaker 5: long to die in cold?
Speaker 9: Right?
Speaker 4: This has been debated a lot too. Why googling that?
Speaker 2: But or you know, the tab There's like a lot
Speaker 2: of back and forth about the science of this and body.
Speaker 2: You're so much better at the computer stuff. But there
Speaker 2: was a tab opened allegedly at the you know, two
Speaker 2: thirty ish, and then they don't know if maybe she
Speaker 2: was googling at later or the tab was just open
Speaker 2: at that time.
Speaker 4: So again, tomatoes, tomatoes. It's hard to say.
Speaker 2: It just seems like a really strange Google search when
Speaker 2: you should be freaking out that there's your dear friend
Speaker 2: is dead in the snow. Why are we google searching
Speaker 2: things like where are the cops? Where's the ambulance? Why
Speaker 2: where's the hysterics?
Speaker 5: That's right, And we actually have a caller, Oh, Maureen
Speaker 5: who called in, Hello.
Speaker 7: Green, Hello lady, how are you good?
Speaker 4: How are you?
Speaker 7: I just happened to catch a show and I mid
Speaker 7: show and I had the weigh in on something.
Speaker 4: We're so happy you're here. What's your question?
Speaker 7: I want to know is have any of you heard
Speaker 7: that the house I don't recall the officer's name, the
Speaker 7: house where the John is his name, Red John Reid's
Speaker 7: body was found.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're thinking of Brian Albert. Probably the home that
Speaker 2: they were all in after hours.
Speaker 7: Yes, is that the house that's the sale?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 7: Yes, Well I want to know if you heard that
Speaker 7: he had his whole basement floor dug up and refurnished
Speaker 7: for a new concrete.
Speaker 4: And I did hear that. I think Turtle Boy talked
Speaker 4: about that quite a bit.
Speaker 8: Actually, by the way, I following since the beginning, I've
Speaker 8: just been picking up pieces here and there. I wish
Speaker 8: I did fall up. In the beginning, I first thought
Speaker 8: she was guilty as heck, she just seemed guilty to me.
Speaker 8: And then all of a sudden, I start hearing things
Speaker 8: and how floppy this is put together as a case.
Speaker 8: And if I was John Read's family, I'd be so
Speaker 8: upset at the police.
Speaker 3: Right, And I agree they have every right to be angry.
Speaker 3: The John o'keef family has every right to be angry
Speaker 3: with how terrible this investigation was. Yeah, that it came
Speaker 3: out a while ago that it's possible that the basement
Speaker 3: was re basically done and that somebody had procured the
Speaker 3: carpet that was taken out of that home. But I
Speaker 3: actually don't I didn't follow up with it, and I
Speaker 3: don't know where it went.
Speaker 4: But I did hear that. I think it was from
Speaker 4: turtle Boy.
Speaker 5: And turtle Boy is a blogger who's actually been in
Speaker 5: the courtroom and been in some hot water as well. Yeah,
Speaker 5: he was witness intimidation, right, witness intimidation, and he was
Speaker 5: disallowed from being there for I believe only certain people's testimony.
Speaker 2: If Karen Reid is found innocent, then she could probably
Speaker 2: think turtle Boy for starting this in the first place.
Speaker 2: Because Maureen, just like you, I thought for sure she
Speaker 2: was guilty as well. And again similarly, I was just
Speaker 2: based on the top line that we were seeing in
Speaker 2: the media. It seemed kind of open and shut, and
Speaker 2: and then she had this like you know, congealiality issue
Speaker 2: where she wasn't so like likable, She wasn't miss congeniality, right,
Speaker 2: she was sort of a little cool, and you know,
Speaker 2: I don't know, it didn't totally track for me. But
Speaker 2: now that we're digging in. I feel so differently. At
Speaker 2: the bare minimum, I think it was so mishandled that
Speaker 2: we'll never really know the truth. And I guess that's
Speaker 2: the worst part.
Speaker 4: We have another caller, Tina Hi, Tina, Hey, Hi, Tina Oh.
Speaker 10: Kenny Jeremy, I think it was Hey. I think it
Speaker 10: was misunderstood earlier when I called him. My question was,
Speaker 10: if Karen Reid is fail not guilty, what happens after
Speaker 10: the fact, Will they will there be another will there
Speaker 10: be something else that happens and they go, you know,
Speaker 10: talk to someone else or whatever.
Speaker 3: Is right right? So who because if they if if
Speaker 3: she's found not guilty, then who did it right? So
Speaker 3: they have to find somebody to prosecute. I don't know
Speaker 3: that the Commonwealth will. I don't know if the Commonwealth
Speaker 3: will admit basically, Okay, well we got the wrong lady,
Speaker 3: so we're gonna go arrest Brian Higgins now or you
Speaker 3: know whoever that's going to be up for that that
Speaker 3: it's a really good question.
Speaker 4: I don't know what's gonna happen.
Speaker 5: But for Karen Read it would be over.
Speaker 4: It would be over, she would walk free.
Speaker 5: That would be it and done. If the verdict comes in.
Speaker 4: Yeah, cue the book deal right exactly tells all right?
Speaker 4: Right for a lot of money.
Speaker 2: I guess with you know, which is either totally applaudable
Speaker 2: or totally gross.
Speaker 4: You pick.
Speaker 3: I can't imagine the Commonwealth would be like, oh, okay,
Speaker 3: got it wrong. I think that they would just say no,
Speaker 3: Karen Reid did it and we just didn't prove it,
Speaker 3: and that would be the end of it.
Speaker 5: So yeah, and what do you think Tina guilty? Not guilty?
Speaker 10: No, I mean at the very beginning I thought guilty.
Speaker 10: But the moral listen, I mean, I'm just confused. I
Speaker 10: really don't know. I mean I don't so therefore I'm like,
Speaker 10: I mean I don't But if she's found not guilty,
Speaker 10: I mean, if there's somebody out there that's really guilty,
Speaker 10: and I mean if they sign her guilty and she
Speaker 10: starts sob or whatever and she didn't.
Speaker 7: Do it, do these people just go free? That was
Speaker 7: my question?
Speaker 9: Is it just?
Speaker 10: I mean, if she's found guilty whatever.
Speaker 2: Right, you know, if she's found guilty, yeah it's over.
Speaker 4: And she's found not guilty.
Speaker 2: It's a great question because other names have been brought
Speaker 2: up as suspicious and so far no additional charges.
Speaker 3: Right, Well, we want to hear your thoughts on all
Speaker 3: tonight stories. Give us a call at eight eight eight
Speaker 3: thirty one Crime to talk about Brian Coberger, Karen Read
Speaker 3: and let us know how you feel about it all.
Speaker 2: Anyway, we were knee deep talking about these new headlines
Speaker 2: that are hitting everybody's desks. So body, there's a big
Speaker 2: update in this Travis Decker case.
Speaker 3: There is Courtney's gonna Courtney's going to go into that
Speaker 3: a little bit. I'm gonna be talking about crypto real quick.
Speaker 3: Oo right, so go ahead.
Speaker 5: Travis Decker a pressing headlines, dueling headlines. I know, time sensitive, listen.
Speaker 5: Travis Decker is the man that is the focus of
Speaker 5: a man hunt. It is alleged that he has killed
Speaker 5: his three young daughters, and at a press conference just
Speaker 5: a couple of hours ago, it's confirmed that the US
Speaker 5: Marshals indeed are hot on his trail. They said that
Speaker 5: male blood as in male female male blood was found
Speaker 5: on Decker's car, but the DNA results have not come in,
Speaker 5: so there's no conclusions we can jump to. So as
Speaker 5: the US Marshall focus on this manhunt, the local sheriff's
Speaker 5: office is working the investigation into the girls. So that
Speaker 5: is what's happening. And let's hope that Travis Decker is found.
Speaker 3: Every time something breaks about him, I'm instantly glued hoping
Speaker 3: that they found him. So they seem very dedicated to it.
Speaker 3: They seem very dedicated to it. So let's wish them
Speaker 3: all the luck. And if you're in the area, keep
Speaker 3: your eye out for him. Google his name, find his picture,
Speaker 3: get familiar with him.
Speaker 4: Stay alert.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm going to be talking about the crypto guys now.
Speaker 3: This is really salacious and kind of why I'm a
Speaker 3: little excited to talk about and jump the gun a
Speaker 3: little bit. Did you guys hear about what's happened today?
Speaker 3: So they were arraigned. We've covered the story in the past,
Speaker 3: if you are not familiar with it, a guy from
Speaker 3: Italy was basically kidnapped and held hostage for three weeks
Speaker 3: in a Soho town home million dollar town home and
Speaker 3: was allegedly tortured and what not to give up his
Speaker 3: Bitcoin password. Well, today they were arraigned. The suspects were arranged,
Speaker 3: the people who basically kidnapped him, William Duplessi and John Waltz,
Speaker 3: and they're like crypto kings.
Speaker 4: Okay, they're like crypto boys.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 3: Well, they pled not guilty, by the way, they pled
Speaker 3: not guilty. They were denied bond. They're in jail, okay,
Speaker 3: until all this gets scored away. However, TMZ This is Crazy.
Speaker 3: TMZ released footage of the victim, Michael Carteron, allegedly participating
Speaker 3: in like super wild you know parties. If you catch
Speaker 3: my drift, we've been you know, the media style night
Speaker 3: in question, the night in question during his supposed time
Speaker 3: of activity of captivity for those three weeks, and that
Speaker 3: there's some footage in this TMZ that they had to
Speaker 3: like blur out, but you can like see what's going on,
Speaker 3: and it is not wholesome.
Speaker 4: Tons of drugs they're part of.
Speaker 3: It doesn't mean he's not a victim, right exactly. Right
Speaker 3: In one of the in some of the photos and videos,
Speaker 3: he's basically being led around on a dog leash and
Speaker 3: collar and there's like a guy sitting on the couch
Speaker 3: with a knife in his lap. So we don't know
Speaker 3: the context in which these images, you know, appear, but
Speaker 3: it's leads.
Speaker 2: Wholesome danger is too, I mean, listen, it's so it's
Speaker 2: so hard to look at because it's wild, right, and
Speaker 2: we encourage you to do so. But it doesn't mean
Speaker 2: he wasn't a victim. It couldn't just turn dark. So
Speaker 2: you know, keep in mind there was a long stretch
Speaker 2: of kidnapping. We'll be right back Doronto. Fear is joining
Speaker 2: us later to talk to us about the origin of
Speaker 2: Scream True Crime tonight, talking true crime all the time. So, body,
Speaker 2: you're obviously a bit of a serial killer aficionado. Is
Speaker 2: that how we would call it?
Speaker 4: I'm a hare?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we all agree on that we are officially serial
Speaker 2: killer haters behaviors. Listen, when we talk about this a lot,
Speaker 2: they are rare, and you know it's not every day
Speaker 2: that there is a serial killer, you know, haunting us.
Speaker 2: But Ted Bundy does go down in the book, says,
Speaker 2: hands down, one of the scariest, and for me, he's
Speaker 2: one of the scariest because he was an intellect, right,
Speaker 2: He was very bright, he was very air quotes charismatic,
Speaker 2: and people really liked him and he was charming and handsome,
Speaker 2: and you know, he prayed on the good girl the
Speaker 2: ones that were school you know, students and carrying their
Speaker 2: books and sometimes he would even put on a fake
Speaker 2: cast or something to pretend that he was like limping
Speaker 2: hoping a nice girl would help him. And then as
Speaker 2: she was helping him, he would just like attach her
Speaker 2: to the car, right, all of a sudden she would
Speaker 2: be handcuffed to the front seat and then she couldn't escape.
Speaker 2: So you know, body phyllis in Oh Ted Bundy. So yeah,
Speaker 2: this is Ted Bundy School. This is day one of
Speaker 2: Ted Bundy School. So recently Dateline.
Speaker 3: Dateline aired an episode about University of Idaho murder suspect
Speaker 3: Brian Coburger in May, in which they showed that Coburger
Speaker 3: had searched for videos of Ted Bundy before his arrest.
Speaker 3: Police also allegedly discovered selfies of Coburger wearing a black
Speaker 3: hoodie similar to how Ted Bundy dressed in a couple
Speaker 3: of YouTube videos that were like dramatized. And so that's
Speaker 3: kind of why we're talking about this because the comparisons
Speaker 3: have been made. So knowing all that this is what
Speaker 3: this is why we're going to Bundy School. So Ted Bundy,
Speaker 3: if you don't know, he was a very probably the
Speaker 3: most famous serial cultory, right, yeah, probably, even though I
Speaker 3: think like Gary Ridgeway was much more heinous, but I digress.
Speaker 3: Ted Bundy super supernatorious. He confessed to murdering over thirty
Speaker 3: women and girls in the nineteen seventies across several states.
Speaker 3: It all started in the Pacific Northwest and it included Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Utah, Colorado,
Speaker 3: and in Flame. So I mean this spanned the nation, right,
Speaker 3: and you know, some experts believe that his victim count
Speaker 3: could be higher, even potentially over one hundred one hundred women.
Speaker 3: And they they gleaned this because after all was said
Speaker 3: and done, Ted Bundy ended up on death row. And
Speaker 3: part of you know, the the negotiations that were being
Speaker 3: done was that he would speak about what he had
Speaker 3: done with FBI guys. And this is all really well documented,
Speaker 3: by the way, in a Netflix documentary called the Ted
Speaker 3: Bundy Tapes. Yeah, so if you get a chance to
Speaker 3: check that out, check it out, because he he tells
Speaker 3: a lot of information about his crimes, but he does
Speaker 3: it in like a third person kind of.
Speaker 4: Way, like, oh, if.
Speaker 3: I were to have done something like that, I probably
Speaker 3: would have done this, you know, Like he does it
Speaker 3: kind of very abstract. But we're checking out. But despite
Speaker 3: all of his horrible crimes. He was really known for
Speaker 3: being super charming and handsome, as you alluded to earlier
Speaker 3: his appearance. He dressed well, he always had like, you know,
Speaker 3: really nice tweed jackets, very like professory, right, like the
Speaker 3: trusting guy. And he would lure women just like you
Speaker 3: said using you know, he would prey on their kindness, right,
Speaker 3: which made him just so terrifying. And you know notable
Speaker 3: victims of Bundy, and now let me just say they're
Speaker 3: all notable, right, All these women are notable. But the
Speaker 3: reason I'm bringing this specific one up is because of
Speaker 3: the comparison to Brian Coberger. Notable victims include the Kyomega
Speaker 3: sorority sisters in Florida State University who he attacked and
Speaker 3: murdered in nineteen seventy eight, and twelve year old Kimberly
Speaker 3: Leech right after, which was his youngest victim, twelve years old. Twelve,
Speaker 3: so gross awful. So here's a little bit about Bundy.
Speaker 3: He was first arrested in nineteen seventy five for kidnapping
Speaker 3: an attempted assault. That woman survived and she was able
Speaker 3: to testify against him. But here's the crazy thing. He
Speaker 3: escaped two time. Okay, So he was rested in Utah,
Speaker 3: transferred to Colorado because of a he was suspected of
Speaker 3: murdering somebody there. And while he was in Colorado, he
Speaker 3: was granted the opportunity to assist in his defense. He
Speaker 3: wasn't representing himself, but he was granted the opportunity to
Speaker 3: assist in his defense. And while he was doing that,
Speaker 3: he was given access to the law library in the courthouse. Right,
Speaker 3: So he's like, I need to go to the law
Speaker 3: library to prepare for my defense, and the guard's like, okay,
Speaker 3: go ahead, I'm gonna go smoke a cigarette. The guard
Speaker 3: goes and smokes a cigarette and Ted Bundy jumps out
Speaker 3: the second story window.
Speaker 4: And escapes away. Six days six days he was on
Speaker 4: the run.
Speaker 3: He basically went into like a cabin in the woods,
Speaker 3: and then he needed to supply, so he stole a car,
Speaker 3: and in that process he got re arrested and transferred
Speaker 3: to another jail, where he escaped.
Speaker 4: In that jail.
Speaker 3: In that jail there was like an unsecure gate, like
Speaker 3: great kind of thing, yes, And he lost a bunch
Speaker 3: of weight, lost like twenty five pounds and snuck through
Speaker 3: the ducks like a freaking movie.
Speaker 4: Stop it.
Speaker 3: He's when Eve like Diehard, like you know, like you
Speaker 3: know how Ruce Willis is up and the ducks and stuff.
Speaker 3: That's like Ted Bundy getting out of this jail or
Speaker 3: the Breakfast Club or the Breakfast Oh my duck, I
Speaker 3: love that movie Breakfast Club. Yeah, mental brain break that's
Speaker 3: a nice thought. Yeah, that is a nice thought. Let's
Speaker 3: say mind cleans army. Sorry, So Ted Bundy's like crawling
Speaker 3: through these ducks, right and basically lands in a guard's apartment.
Speaker 3: He wasn't there. This guard wasn't there. Again, Ted Bundy
Speaker 3: totally looks out. He steals some clothes from the guard
Speaker 3: like dresser, puts the clothes on and leaves. And then
Speaker 3: this is the crazy part. That's crazy enough. The moral,
Speaker 3: it's all nuts. But this would never happen today. After
Speaker 3: I just got everybody seems to be escaping from prison.
Speaker 4: Just got out the other day. Sorry, I'm not I digress.
Speaker 3: No, that's a good point. But here's what I'm saying.
Speaker 3: What happened today After escaping from that jail, through the
Speaker 3: ducks and whatnot, he took a flight to Chicago. He
Speaker 3: got on a plane that would never happen today.
Speaker 4: That's true. That is true.
Speaker 3: That's what I mean by this one housed so true.
Speaker 3: He took a flight to Chicago and then took a
Speaker 3: train to ann Arbor, Michigan, drove to South Atlanta or
Speaker 3: I'm sorry south to Atlanta, and then got on a
Speaker 3: bus to Tallahassee, where he ended up at the Kyomega
Speaker 3: House where he This is where we get into the
Speaker 3: similarities where he went to the Kyomega House and Brian Coberger.
Speaker 3: Of course, at the Moscow, Idaho it was kind of
Speaker 3: like all the girls were in a sorority. It was
Speaker 3: an off campus house just like Kyomega. He went in.
Speaker 3: There were four victims, two he killed and two he
Speaker 3: beat up. So those are like the similarities as well
Speaker 3: as you know Brian Coberger googling Ted Bundy and whatnot.
Speaker 3: But I don't really think that's such a big deal
Speaker 3: because he was a criminology student, right like I've googled
Speaker 3: Ted Bundy, you know, it's not. I just don't really
Speaker 3: find all that to be too much. I don't think
Speaker 3: that that ties him to Ted Bundy. I think more
Speaker 3: the things that bind him to Ted Bundy are the
Speaker 3: Kyomega killings.
Speaker 4: I really do fair, That's totally fair.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so you guys, Ted Bundy has been someone who's
Speaker 5: been on my mind since I'm a teenager. Oh really Yeah.
Speaker 5: I would read kind of an odd amount of books
Speaker 5: on different murders and Dominic Dunn. I think probably because
Speaker 5: my mother was a fan of Dominic Dunn and she
Speaker 5: got me into it. But Ted Bundy. I read several
Speaker 5: books and one that really stuck with me. It was
Speaker 5: called The Stranger Beside Me.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: It was written by a woman named Anne Rule, and
Speaker 5: it terrified me so because the author and Rule turned
Speaker 5: true crime journalist. She used to work the night shift
Speaker 5: with Ted Bundy at a Seattle crisis hotline. People would
Speaker 5: call sometimes they were suicidal or you know, in crisis,
Speaker 5: and just the thought of being in this dark space
Speaker 5: often the two of them alone together.
Speaker 4: Did she like him? Yes, she said she did. He
Speaker 4: was like a nice guy too.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm remembering this from the movie that I watched,
Speaker 2: which randomly had who in it. It was like a
Speaker 2: who's the actor from the Greatest Showman?
Speaker 4: He plays huge? No, the other one good close, the
Speaker 4: younger one. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Zac Efron plays Ted Bundy in a film and it's
Speaker 2: really the POV is really through his longtime girlfriend and
Speaker 2: who was a single mother, and Ted Bundy was very
Speaker 2: devoted to his daughter, and you know, kind of how
Speaker 2: she had to reconcile these two different people was really,
Speaker 2: you know, obviously worth writing.
Speaker 4: A book and making a movie about.
Speaker 2: And I think also the comparison to Coburger, which is significant.
Speaker 2: It's just the idea of it being a random person.
Speaker 2: You know, if what Brian Coberger is being accused of
Speaker 2: is true, then he was lurking outside that house in
Speaker 2: Idaho and just looking for a thrill kill if that's
Speaker 2: the case, because there doesn't really seem to be a
Speaker 2: super close reason or connection between the victims and the
Speaker 2: alleged killer. And it sounds like Ted Bundy was very similar.
Speaker 2: He had this need to kill. And yes, if you
Speaker 2: haven't heard those tapes on the Bundy tape, good, Oh
Speaker 2: it's it's actually too.
Speaker 4: Scary for me. And I don't scare easily, and I
Speaker 4: have a very.
Speaker 2: Thick skin this job, I guess, but that was actually
Speaker 2: too scary for me. Like he seems so like removed,
Speaker 2: is your point, Like he does seem as though he's
Speaker 2: psychotically able to compartmentalize, puts himself about outside of it.
Speaker 3: Right, if I were to have committed these crimes and
Speaker 3: I and I killed her, I might have put her
Speaker 3: skull here, by the way.
Speaker 2: And he's so casual about how he speaks some things
Speaker 2: that are so disgusting in raw and brutal because he
Speaker 2: was so brutal to his victims. And you know, I
Speaker 2: think also the fact that he doesn't have an amazing
Speaker 2: origin story to explain any of this either, you know,
Speaker 2: he I think there was some allegedly some ancestual relationships
Speaker 2: and his parents and his mother he had a little
Speaker 2: bit of a twisted relationship with from a distance. Nothing
Speaker 2: super super great though to point to as a cautionary tale.
Speaker 2: And by the way, we're all raised to help the
Speaker 2: person who has a cast who can't carry their books,
Speaker 2: and he is a neighbor, exactly be a good neighbor.
Speaker 2: So I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff. I
Speaker 2: for sure would help the guy with the books to
Speaker 2: get in his car and you know, be the first
Speaker 2: one gone, especially if they had a dog, a lost
Speaker 2: dog or something. I'm a sucker, a sucker.
Speaker 5: But I think part of what has kept his notoriety
Speaker 5: so high for so long is his trials were publicized
Speaker 5: and they were televised, and that really, you know, that
Speaker 5: was not common. And during his trial, I don't know
Speaker 5: if you guys remember seeing this on any docks, but
Speaker 5: during his trial for the Kimberly Leech murder, he proposed
Speaker 5: to his girlfriend Harrol Anne Boone in the courtroom.
Speaker 4: You know, it's so weird.
Speaker 3: Ted Bundy was really smart. He represented himself and he
Speaker 3: knew that if he proposed in court and she said yes,
Speaker 3: they didn't they didn't even have to have a wedding.
Speaker 3: They're married. He knew that, Like he's a he's he
Speaker 3: was a very very smart.
Speaker 4: What does that mean? Really? What does he not have
Speaker 4: to have a wedding?
Speaker 2: They're just if she says yes, in not to cut
Speaker 2: her court, really done in court and she says yes,
Speaker 2: and it's like, okay, it's done done.
Speaker 4: Isn't that wild? Yes?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so they didn't even have to have a wedding.
Speaker 3: That was so calculated of him. He's very smarting. He's
Speaker 3: very smart. I mean, you don't get to get you
Speaker 3: thirty women, you convince people if you're a dummy, you
Speaker 3: have to be some kind of smart about you, and
Speaker 3: he was a very smart man.
Speaker 5: He was even the judge said that if the circumstances
Speaker 5: had been different, he would have been a good lawyer potentially.
Speaker 2: Right, we have a special guest who you know, he's back.
Speaker 2: He was with us last week and he is back
Speaker 2: again now our true crime pop culture expert Doron o Fear,
Speaker 2: and he's going to give us this origin story about Scream,
Speaker 2: the movie, which obviously was this huge Hollywood franchise, and
Speaker 2: I didn't realize it was actually based on a true story.
Speaker 4: So Doron welcome, Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello.
Speaker 2: If anybody wants to ask a question to Doron or
Speaker 2: join the conversation, please call us eight eight eight three
Speaker 2: one crime or hit us up in our socials. So
Speaker 2: Doroan tell us a little bit about Danny Rollin and
Speaker 2: why is he so scary?
Speaker 9: You know, when I started to put together my thoughts
Speaker 9: for this specific episode, I decided to sort of dub
Speaker 9: it to Scream behind the Mask. And I don't know
Speaker 9: if you all know the story behind Danny Rollin. I
Speaker 9: tell it was a one man murder spree in Gainesville,
Speaker 9: Florida that actually inspired the movie franchise Scream. Which then
Speaker 9: created a ripple effect and inspired others to do more.
Speaker 9: So it's canonized as probably one of the more twisted
Speaker 9: stories behind pop culture and murder.
Speaker 4: So tell us when this all happened. Yeah, give us
Speaker 4: a little of the backstory.
Speaker 9: Okay. So Jamie Rawlings was drifter, and he had a
Speaker 9: very violent past, and he was not somebody who was
Speaker 9: killing for any ideological reason other than shock and all.
Speaker 9: And in August of nineteen ninety in Gainesville, Florida, that
Speaker 9: became his hunting ground. So for about four days he
Speaker 9: murdered five college students. He murdered Christina Powell Sonya Larsen,
Speaker 9: Christina Hoyt, Tracy Powells, and Manny Toboda. And these five
Speaker 9: beautiful students were stalked, raped some and mutilated others. He
Speaker 9: was so graphic that he hosed their bodies. He decapitated
Speaker 9: a victim. Another was displayed seated upright surrounded by mirrors,
Speaker 9: like some kind of a prop and a horror movie.
Speaker 4: Oh my god.
Speaker 9: Yeah, he used a military he like staged it. He
Speaker 9: staged them like marionette puppets. He used a military style
Speaker 9: carbar knife and he broke in silently, and he killed
Speaker 9: with precision, and this horrified the whole state went into lockdown,
Speaker 9: and the whole world froze at the story of these
Speaker 9: beautiful college students stalked and murdered and created into some
Speaker 9: sort of fantasy set dressing. There was never a robbery,
Speaker 9: there was never a motive. It was straight up spectacle.
Speaker 5: Doron, excuse me if you said this, but when when
Speaker 5: in time did this happen?
Speaker 9: In August of nineteen ninety.
Speaker 5: Nineteen ninety, and how was he caught?
Speaker 9: So it took him a year. They didn't catch him
Speaker 9: for a year, and he was and looked crazy about
Speaker 9: it was he was already in custody for armed robbery.
Speaker 9: And when they were able to actually figure out that
Speaker 9: that was him, he eventually confessed. And he didn't do
Speaker 9: it like a normal human being. He did songs and
Speaker 9: poems that he recorded in prison. So you're parking the
Speaker 9: straight psychopathy.
Speaker 2: Like he sings or he's doing poetry that has this
Speaker 2: confession within that yess.
Speaker 9: And so when I did last week's episode and I
Speaker 9: talked about the first monster, you know, and you guys
Speaker 9: led into this with the Ted Bundy thing, So you know,
Speaker 9: killers do things for different reasons, and what makes my
Speaker 9: skin crawl is the ones that do it where you
Speaker 9: don't know the reason. There was no rhyme or reason
Speaker 9: for this. There was no link to Satanism or that
Speaker 9: he you know, had some sort of assorted past. There's
Speaker 9: very little known about him. And the crazy thing about
Speaker 9: Danny Rollins is that, like that crime didn't just stay
Speaker 9: in Florida. It became part of the cultural mainstream. And
Speaker 9: when Kevin Williamson, who was the writer and director of
Speaker 9: the original Saw movies, you know, Danny Rowling was nicknamed
Speaker 9: the Gamesville Ripper and it was what inspired him, Yeah,
Speaker 9: the game Ripper, and that's what inspired him to write Scream.
Speaker 9: And when Scream came out, you know, that was sort
Speaker 9: of a meta horror movie, and being being the pop
Speaker 9: culture fan that I am, it combined slap slasher, gore
Speaker 9: with humor and sort of the rules behind horror and
Speaker 9: in terms of film, and that's where he based Ghostface,
Speaker 9: which is the killer in the screen movies that is
Speaker 9: always a different killer, but it's the killer behind a mask, right,
Speaker 9: And so Rollings kind of his like shadow even stretches
Speaker 9: deeper because the theory behind Rollins is also that he was,
Speaker 9: and it's never been proven, but from a pop culture
Speaker 9: historian lever level, it's reminiscent of the movies that came before,
Speaker 9: which was movies like Black Christmas from nineteen seventy four
Speaker 9: or the Sorority Horse House Massacre in nineteen eighty six.
Speaker 9: The other one was The House and Sorority Row and
Speaker 9: even Halloween in Friday the thirteenth. So all of those
Speaker 9: movies combined a very specific point of view, which was
Speaker 9: stalking and killing college dude. And what Danny Rollins did
Speaker 9: was but he staged them for maximum shock value, and
Speaker 9: that also was part of the theme and Sorority House Massacre,
Speaker 9: so you can't. It's sort of the overlap is undeniable,
Speaker 9: you know, helpless young women, voyeurism, stalking, ritualistic violence. Like
Speaker 9: he encapsulates the worst part of what I consider serial
Speaker 9: killing spreeze well.
Speaker 5: And also just the scariest, like you said, of when
Speaker 5: there is sort of no rhyme or reason. How did
Speaker 5: Roling want to be remembered? Did he want to make
Speaker 5: his mark? Is that why he was doing all this
Speaker 5: theatrical stuff like a villain.
Speaker 9: I'm going to leave I'm going to leave that for
Speaker 9: you as the experts to weigh in either in the
Speaker 9: future or even get callers in to kind of tell
Speaker 9: us that there are people that are out there that
Speaker 9: really know the backstory behind this, because the truth is,
Speaker 9: you know, for me, my impetus to all of this
Speaker 9: was the fact that a movie in pop culture inspired
Speaker 9: or potentially inspired him to do what he did. And
Speaker 9: the other part of this is that it didn't end
Speaker 9: there because after the Danny Rowling killings in Gainesville, they
Speaker 9: were copycat killings. And when Scream became a phenomenon with
Speaker 9: Scream one and obviously we're up to Scream ten at
Speaker 9: this point, there were others and when the copycats followed.
Speaker 9: It started first in nineteen ninety eight in California where
Speaker 9: Mario Padilla and Samuel Rodrigue Ramirez sorry, they were teenage
Speaker 9: cousins and they murdered Padilla's mother. She was stabbed forty
Speaker 9: five times, and when they were captured, they cited Scream
Speaker 9: and Scream two is their inspiration. They said they wanted
Speaker 9: to become ghost based and serial killers, just like the
Speaker 9: movies they loved.
Speaker 4: A demented you know, it's funny.
Speaker 2: Dorani and I were talking about this several months ago,
Speaker 2: you know, we were doing the Idaho Massacre podcast and
Speaker 2: you know, we've been working on the doc and we
Speaker 2: were kind of, I'm a little obsessed with the idea
Speaker 2: of imprints. We learned about this from a guy named
Speaker 2: Steve Hodell, whose father was the Black Dahlia and allegedly
Speaker 2: and he kind of he was also a former detective
Speaker 2: and mental imprints things. You know, we know what our
Speaker 2: fingerprints are like, but what does our mind see? And
Speaker 2: in Brian Coberger's case, the accused in the Idaho college
Speaker 2: murders his sister.
Speaker 4: He has two older sisters.
Speaker 2: One became a therapist, but one used to be like
Speaker 2: in a B movie and it was like a slasherflick,
Speaker 2: and the theme of this particular movie was that these
Speaker 2: co eds go out into the wilderness and not all
Speaker 2: of them come back, and it's a scary, screamy movie
Speaker 2: and it's you know, young people and you know all
Speaker 2: the frenzied noess that we know from those types of movies.
Speaker 4: And much has been made about this.
Speaker 2: In no way am I making the suggestion that because
Speaker 2: of that and his sister that had anything to do
Speaker 2: with his spree, but it does potentially shape things that
Speaker 2: we just see in the atmosphere. You know, if you
Speaker 2: see Scream, yeah, of course it's going to have an influence.
Speaker 9: Well, it actually does. And what's even more sort of
Speaker 9: blood curdling or makes your blood run cold, is that
Speaker 9: In two thousand and six, also in Idaho, Casey Joe
Speaker 9: Stoddart was sixteen and she was killed during a sleepover.
Speaker 9: Her classmates Brian Draper and Tony adamsick based out or
Speaker 9: to death and they not only stabbed her, they recorded
Speaker 9: themselves before and after, and the whole time they were
Speaker 9: doing it, they were saying it live, that we're making
Speaker 9: real life horror movie. And upon their incarceration, their whole
Speaker 9: thing was that they were Their whole tone was that
Speaker 9: it was casual, it was giddy, It was as if
Speaker 9: it was prescripted. And they also said that they wanted
Speaker 9: to mimic Scream.
Speaker 4: So you know the Slenderman. Yes, slender we should do
Speaker 4: a story, we should be narrative.
Speaker 9: But what's crazy about it is that, like in two
Speaker 9: thousand and six, this happened in Idaho, and the Scream
Speaker 9: movies and the franchise may not have inspired it, but
Speaker 9: it sort of brought it back so it starts in Gainesville.
Speaker 9: You know this this this the town in Scream is
Speaker 9: sort of Illinois, and then it goes to California, then Idaho,
Speaker 9: and then back to idahoad again because the Idaho killers.
Speaker 9: You know that happened what November thirteenth of twenty twenty two,
Speaker 9: and again for University of Idaho students to death off
Speaker 9: campus housing kids.
Speaker 4: No motive yet, no really known motive. It's not revenge.
Speaker 2: It wasn't money necessarily, it wasn't like unrequited love. Well
Speaker 2: maybe that was the kid, don't Maybe he felt rejected
Speaker 2: in his head.
Speaker 9: I don't know.
Speaker 2: They certainly weren't all buds.
Speaker 9: There was there was no fourth entry, right, no robbery. Right,
Speaker 9: there was a brutal murder. Whether whether it is Brian
Speaker 9: Coberger or not, it's still these things have a pattern.
Speaker 9: And me as somebody who watches pop culture and wonders
Speaker 9: about it, you know, this conversation happens all the time
Speaker 9: about you know, video games and gaming and whether that
Speaker 9: increases violence. And you know, my theory about this is
Speaker 9: is that once something becomes imaginable, it's no longer unimaginable,
Speaker 9: and that's when you start to see ways of creating
Speaker 9: it and becoming more perverse. And that's the fear that
Speaker 9: we're headed to. And you know, as part of a
Speaker 9: horror movie genre. You know, I talked about it a
Speaker 9: little bit last week. It reflects the fears of society
Speaker 9: and they're cyclical, so you know when you talk about
Speaker 9: you know, we left off last time talking about the
Speaker 9: seventies and why suddenly were you know, women as the
Speaker 9: final girl and they were always teenagers and it had
Speaker 9: a lot to do with sort of sexual promiscuity and
Speaker 9: kids having fun. And that was in an era where
Speaker 9: women's liberation was growing and the pill happened and sexual freedom,
Speaker 9: and so there was a reaction to it. And the
Speaker 9: lead up to that, strangely, in the early seventies was
Speaker 9: a lot of religious horror because people were afraid that,
Speaker 9: you know, America was losing its moral compass, and that's
Speaker 9: when you had the exorcystem the Omen and all of
Speaker 9: these movies that sort of dealt with, you know, these
Speaker 9: religious themes, which then followed the birth of the slasher
Speaker 9: movies full on. Because although Psycho might have been the
Speaker 9: first slasher movie, there was a lull in between. But
Speaker 9: by the time the late seventies happened. It was all
Speaker 9: slasher all the time until we hit into the late
Speaker 9: eighties and nineties. Then and when you think of the
Speaker 9: time of that, with videotape and all of that, we
Speaker 9: entered a world of found footage, harror, so Blair witch
Speaker 9: and you know, paranormal activity where video even yeah, feels
Speaker 9: proven to be video. So you know, my fear now
Speaker 9: is that we've circled back into an environment to fear
Speaker 9: where people are not afraid of the unknown.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 5: Doron, you are the best and we're very excited that
Speaker 5: you will be sticking around and joining us for what
Speaker 5: we're all watching. And we've got some great tips on
Speaker 5: that for you. Give us a call eight a eight
Speaker 5: three to one Crime and keep it here True Crime Tonight,
Speaker 5: we're talking true crime all the time.
Speaker 2: Our special pop culture guest, Dorano Fear he's joining us
Speaker 2: for this next segment as well. We also have a talkback,
Speaker 2: so thank you by the way, if you want to
Speaker 2: join the show eight eight eight three to one Crime,
Speaker 2: or you could always leave us a talkback.
Speaker 4: Let's go to the one that just came in.
Speaker 11: Hi, my name is Sarah, and pertaining to the new
Speaker 11: England serial killer theory. I'm kind of wondering if there
Speaker 11: could be a couple of them in the area. And
Speaker 11: it's not necessarily that there's one serial killer or thirteen killers,
Speaker 11: but I'm thinking of like how the Hillside Stranglers were
Speaker 11: active at the same time as Rodney Alkala in California.
Speaker 11: Like those things complicate stuff. Let me know what you think.
Speaker 2: Can we just discuss how smart our listeners are. I mean,
Speaker 2: listen the crime crew out there. Every question we've been
Speaker 2: getting has been so clever and thoughtful and smart. So
Speaker 2: keep coming please eight eight eight three to one Crime. Yeah,
Speaker 2: what a smart question.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 3: They call that like a cluster when there's more than
Speaker 3: one serial killer active in the same you know region.
Speaker 3: And I might be wrong about that, so let me
Speaker 3: know if I'm wrong. I'm sure you'll have no problem
Speaker 3: letting me know. But I believe it's called a cluster,
Speaker 3: and it's a really rare occurrence, but it does happen.
Speaker 3: As our talkback just mentioned, it also happened with Ed
Speaker 3: Kemper famously, right or was in mind Hunter? You know
Speaker 3: he killed his grandparents and.
Speaker 4: His mother or something. Oh yeah, the other one too scary.
Speaker 4: He did, we'll talk you. We have to cover him.
Speaker 4: It makes me not just too much, we have to
Speaker 4: get him.
Speaker 3: But you know, he was called the coed killer and
Speaker 3: in Santa Cruz and there was also Herbert Mullen working
Speaker 3: at the same time, and it caused a lot of
Speaker 3: confusion for the investigation because there were two serial killers
Speaker 3: and I thought there was one. So to answer your question, yeah,
Speaker 3: and it's something I didn't actually think about until you
Speaker 3: said it. And it's really smart because there could be
Speaker 3: I mean, it's again, it's a cluster and it is
Speaker 3: pretty rare, but it definitely does happen. It is something
Speaker 3: that we should probably think about.
Speaker 9: And one of the things that is making the New
Speaker 9: England serial killer problematic is that they're saying that the
Speaker 9: motives or the methods in which these people were found
Speaker 9: are they're they're not cohesive, they're not which could lead
Speaker 9: that there's either multiple killers through coincidence, or that they're
Speaker 9: working together to sort of buddy up the investigation.
Speaker 2: Oh and that would be or that would have aten
Speaker 2: for killing and you know somebody else is doing it
Speaker 2: in the area that might get caught or you know,
Speaker 2: cover your tracks a little bit.
Speaker 4: And why not.
Speaker 2: You know, maybe you jump in geographically to a similar
Speaker 2: location knowing that they're hot on someone else.
Speaker 4: But then you would probably try to match it a
Speaker 4: little bit.
Speaker 9: And that was you know, going back to my segment,
Speaker 9: that was what Scream was about. Because remember Scream was
Speaker 9: not just one killer, so you know, it was two
Speaker 9: and so you know, these things again mirror, you know. Unfortunately,
Speaker 9: when I said that the unimaginable becomes imaginable is when
Speaker 9: people start to see these things, it can lead to inspiration,
Speaker 9: and that's a really scary thought.
Speaker 2: How do we prevent that? I think that's why you know,
Speaker 2: we're so excited to be able to unpack this stuff, right,
Speaker 2: because it really does fishtail these very extreme cases. They
Speaker 2: have bits and pieces of you know, regular person lives, right,
Speaker 2: It's relationships, it's you know, the person next door. You know,
Speaker 2: how do we find ourselves safe in the world, and
Speaker 2: how do we keep ourselves safe if we don't talk
Speaker 2: about this stuff. So on the one hand, yes, it
Speaker 2: kind of puts almost like a little bit of a
Speaker 2: spotlight on people who do very bad things, and maybe
Speaker 2: that's like a form of celebration, which of course we
Speaker 2: don't want to do.
Speaker 4: And frankly nobody wants to do.
Speaker 2: And then on the other side of that, if you
Speaker 2: don't talk about it, then how do you prevent it?
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know that talking about it it does
Speaker 3: prevent it. I believe it makes it.
Speaker 4: I feel better.
Speaker 3: Well, I think it makes us feel better to talk
Speaker 3: about it.
Speaker 9: It does, think it feel better. It also gives you awareness,
Speaker 9: and it allows you to understand motivation and concept You
Speaker 9: may not be able to imagine what it's like to
Speaker 9: be a serial killer, which would obviously lead to psychopathy,
Speaker 9: but it allows you to understand what you can do
Speaker 9: to avoid it or to become a victim.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how do you avoid the serial killer? You know
Speaker 2: mosttant Yes, you can. I think you can a little bit.
Speaker 2: If you don't know that there is somebody in the
Speaker 2: world that can do something that terrible, Yeah, Like, then
Speaker 2: you have to just be alert.
Speaker 4: A little bit.
Speaker 2: This is not to say that victims are not alert,
Speaker 2: but like, if you don't hear this stuff, then you
Speaker 2: don't even know that you should be looking over your
Speaker 2: shoulder or you know, how to make sure that you're
Speaker 2: in your.
Speaker 3: Life looking over your shoulder all the time.
Speaker 9: Like, that's just my belief it's not only that. Like
Speaker 9: if you go back to when was it nineteen seventy
Speaker 9: seven when a Ton Pots the Little Boy vanished to
Speaker 9: New York. That was the first time that the whole
Speaker 9: concept of Jennifer Generation X kind of had to wake
Speaker 9: up and bring your kids home. And that's on the
Speaker 9: whole milk carton thing. Once people understood that you could
Speaker 9: be aware and you started to teach kids about stranger danger,
Speaker 9: it was an unheard of crime and it wasn't a
Speaker 9: crime that hadn't happened before, but it had. It had
Speaker 9: become mainstream in everyone's thought patterns because every little kid
Speaker 9: became a ton Pops and you know, he it's and
Speaker 9: then they had all those movies you know, my name
Speaker 9: is Stephen, and they had all of this kind of
Speaker 9: culture around it as well. That was so, you know,
Speaker 9: but we now know, so you raise your children today
Speaker 9: to know about stranger danger that you know, you scream,
Speaker 9: you yell, you don't just get into a van. You know,
Speaker 9: this stuff seems so common to us now, but it
Speaker 9: wasn't always like that. And it's the stories of these
Speaker 9: true crimes. It's the stories of the terrible incidents that
Speaker 9: make you go Okay, I'm not going to do that.
Speaker 9: I'm going to trust my instinct. You know, women don't
Speaker 9: just walk on the streets alone without some sort of
Speaker 9: understanding that they need to put their keys between their hands.
Speaker 9: They need to have made that. Now, phones have pre
Speaker 9: recorded messages on them so that when you talk out loud,
Speaker 9: it sounds like you're like, husband's a cop. You know.
Speaker 5: It's so true that talking about all of this doron
Speaker 5: really does make an impact ultimately. And now we're going
Speaker 5: to take a little turn into what we are watching. Stephanie,
Speaker 5: what is hot on your list?
Speaker 2: The Gilgo Beach I mean that was super scary, the
Speaker 2: Peacock documentary that we were talking about, the Gilgo Beach
Speaker 2: Killer House of Secrets, and it really does highlight the
Speaker 2: accused Rex Humerman's wife in her in her own words,
Speaker 2: And I almost don't want to ruin it, unless you
Speaker 2: guys don't.
Speaker 4: I have not started it. It's interesting, I do want
Speaker 4: to know, really interesting. I really recommend it. Really, Okay,
Speaker 4: it's excellent.
Speaker 5: I actually I was so I had literally have twelve
Speaker 5: minutes left to watch because I was watching it up
Speaker 5: until we came to the studio.
Speaker 4: Really, and yeah, it's good.
Speaker 5: But yeah, let's give everyone a little bit of time
Speaker 5: to watch it.
Speaker 3: But it just came out yesterday, right like we I
Speaker 3: haven't had any time to see it yet.
Speaker 4: I'm dying to see it and think about it.
Speaker 2: Just the stakes there, you know, regardless of even taking
Speaker 2: Rex Humor Mini accused Long Island serial killer out of
Speaker 2: it for a moment, just imagine your you know, have
Speaker 2: you ever been in a relationship of any kind where
Speaker 2: you were a little bamboozled or you you had a
Speaker 2: spidy sense about something but maybe didn't act on it.
Speaker 2: Obviously this would be a very extreme example of that.
Speaker 2: But I think, you know, like her, dislike her regardless.
Speaker 2: I think that piece of it is a little relatable
Speaker 2: and I think also ticks back to our our first
Speaker 2: conversation about, you know, how to keep ourselves safe and
Speaker 2: talking about this stuff respectfully and ethically. Yeah, trust your
Speaker 2: spidey sense, everybody, Please trust that feeling. When you have
Speaker 2: the hairs in the back of your neck go up.
Speaker 2: Listen to that, and don't get in the car. Your
Speaker 2: chances of survival go down fifty percent if you get
Speaker 2: into the car.
Speaker 4: Do not get in the car.
Speaker 2: You kick you scream, you scream fire and you fight
Speaker 2: to the death.
Speaker 4: You do not get in the car, that is my.
Speaker 9: If you're in the back of a cab or a
Speaker 9: ride service, do not drink the water that's provided ever.
Speaker 4: Ever, ever, ever. Oh, that is a great thing.
Speaker 5: That's honestly something.
Speaker 2: That's a general note too that I would say, do
Speaker 2: not drink out in public if you didn't open it yourself,
Speaker 2: be really careful. I mean, we're seeing that in the
Speaker 2: Ditty case and much more, you know, different circumstances.
Speaker 4: But you know, alcohol being spiked or.
Speaker 2: Drugged is becoming increasingly more a thing, and sometimes it's tasteless.
Speaker 5: Ps A. These are very important darn what about Yeah.
Speaker 9: Well, you know I linked I okay, So for me,
Speaker 9: I'm going to recommend the case that made us all
Speaker 9: questioned the justice system to begin with and gave birth
Speaker 9: to the true crime documentary as we know it. So
Speaker 9: what I started to revisit now was Paradise Lost and
Speaker 9: the child murders of Robinson Lakes nd of it. And
Speaker 9: when you met you mentioned it. That was the first
Speaker 9: documentary clime that I had ever seen me too, and
Speaker 9: I wanted to watch it now to see if it
Speaker 9: holds up and you know what, it holds up brilliantly,
Speaker 9: and it's a it's a three parter now because Paradise
Speaker 9: Loss came out in what nineteen ninety six and it's
Speaker 9: available on HBO Max. Then Paradise Lost to the Revelations
Speaker 9: came out what fourteen years later in two thousand and
Speaker 9: then Paradise three Lost three Purgatory Who came out in
Speaker 9: twenty eleven. Plus there's been follow.
Speaker 4: Up movies and we really good too, by the way, yep.
Speaker 9: And the thing about that is that that's another case,
Speaker 9: you know, it's never really truly been solved, but that
Speaker 9: was into trial and you know and and sort of
Speaker 9: whole accusations. It's a little bit of it's blanking on me.
Speaker 9: The Crucible, you know.
Speaker 4: Panic of the nineties, right.
Speaker 9: Panic panic and false you know confessions, false confession you know,
Speaker 9: you know Metallica Like it makes you say, absolutely so
Speaker 9: those poor little boys because you know what the documentary
Speaker 9: is about. You know, it's you know, three eight year
Speaker 9: old boys in West Memphis, Arkansas are found dead and
Speaker 9: they're not and they're killed brutally and then teenagers and
Speaker 9: are are you know, basically rounded up for Damon Eccles
Speaker 9: becoming the main one, James Baldwin and Jesse Ms Kelly
Speaker 9: Junior and those three, you know, they spend time for it.
Speaker 9: And the West memphisis three also is one of these
Speaker 9: that resonated with pop culture because all these pop culture
Speaker 9: people entered the fray. Johnny Dad happened? You know, there's
Speaker 9: free any better? Yeah, And so it's a fascinating look
Speaker 9: at how somebody can how how true crime can influence
Speaker 9: the judicial system and help public opinion can sway a
Speaker 9: court case.
Speaker 4: Oh you're speaking my love language. Yeah, it's so true.
Speaker 4: My favorite body and eyes are just like lit up
Speaker 4: right now. I know there's a twinkle.
Speaker 5: I'm gonna I'm really busy couple of days watching all
Speaker 5: of these. Well, listen, Doron, we thank you from the
Speaker 5: bottom of our hearts for being here. Hopefully we'll have
Speaker 5: you back as soon as you're able. And yeah, as
Speaker 5: a reminder, tickets are available now for La Comic Con
Speaker 5: and you can and should follow Doroan on his socials
Speaker 5: at Doran o fier Cast.
Speaker 2: So you know, again, what are we all watching? I know,
Speaker 2: body any big ideas.
Speaker 4: Mind over murder?
Speaker 3: You guys, I don't know if you if you've even
Speaker 3: heard about it, because nobody ever really talks about it,
Speaker 3: but it's.
Speaker 4: It's about it's about false confessions.
Speaker 3: And it's so funny that Doron was talking about that
Speaker 3: with Paradise Loss, because that's how I got kind of
Speaker 3: introduced to false confessions. But yeah, it focuses on a
Speaker 3: small town in Nebraska and six pe people are all
Speaker 3: confessing to the same murder, and you really learn about
Speaker 3: the science of false confessions and police interrogation techniques and
Speaker 3: how people are broken and are basically kind of convinced
Speaker 3: that they did something they didn't do. It is a
Speaker 3: fascinating documentary. I've watched it twice now and I just
Speaker 3: rewatched it this weekend, which made me remember, oh God,
Speaker 3: I got to talk about this because it's so good
Speaker 3: and nobody ever talks about it. It's on Hulu and
Speaker 3: Apple TV, and I just can't recommend it enough, especially
Speaker 3: if you're interested in how people get caught and how
Speaker 3: people how could you ever false confess to something that
Speaker 3: you had nothing to do with, Well, this explains it,
Speaker 3: and it's super interesting. It happens way more often than
Speaker 3: you think, and you know a lot of the police
Speaker 3: interrogation techniques kind of are questioned in today's world because of.
Speaker 4: Things like this movie or this documentary. It's great, really good.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Mind over Murder Check it Out is really good.
Speaker 4: What about you, Courtney?
Speaker 5: Oh well, this was one American Nightmare. It's on Netflix
Speaker 5: and it tells the story of Denise Huskins and Aaron
Speaker 5: Quinn and this young couple. I don't want to ruin it,
Speaker 5: but they experience a home invasion and there's a kidnapping involved.
Speaker 5: And this series, it's three episodes, tells the story from
Speaker 5: grossly different perspectives. The three parts are called the Boyfriend,
Speaker 5: Gone Girl and the others. So it's really herm and
Speaker 5: it's beautifully done, and it's also an example of unbelievable
Speaker 5: detective work.
Speaker 3: And I have to tell you the people that made
Speaker 3: American Nightmare are the same people that made Donnof for Cats.
Speaker 4: Oh, you had mentioned that, I'm really proud of really
Speaker 4: nice job, no question. We also have a talk back.
Speaker 4: Oh do we want to go ahead? Let's play that.
Speaker 12: This is Kim from Kentucky and I was wondering all
Speaker 12: thoughts on this with the Gabby Window case. If potentially
Speaker 12: the law would I would go after the Laundry family
Speaker 12: to sue them for resources used searching for Gabby when
Speaker 12: they have indeed announced that they knew that Brian had
Speaker 12: already taken her life.
Speaker 2: Great question, Another incredible question on the Gabby Patito case
Speaker 2: if you think it's possimiliar, Yeah, if you're not familiar
Speaker 2: with the case, just as a heads up, Gabby Patito
Speaker 2: was the beautiful girl who was with her boyfriend doing
Speaker 2: van life across country and her life was taken by him.
Speaker 2: He goes home with out said van and allegedly maybe
Speaker 2: confesses to mom and dad, we don't know this for sure,
Speaker 2: and then he takes his own life. And you know,
Speaker 2: the question is will will the parents be charged? Potentially
Speaker 2: such a great question if they misled police.
Speaker 4: And they they could be charged.
Speaker 5: They could be charged absolutely and have to pay restitutions
Speaker 5: for you know, money is lost and.
Speaker 2: It's basically abstruction, right I think, yeah, it's a great question.
Speaker 2: I think we should dig a little deeper into that
Speaker 2: because so much has been you know, made suspicious about
Speaker 2: Brian Laundry's parents, and you know, what would anybody do?
Speaker 2: Do you do you give shelter to your child after
Speaker 2: a terrible confession or do you turn them in? You know,
Speaker 2: I guess is the is the choice. Well, we're going
Speaker 2: to dig into so much more tomorrow. We have Diddy.
Speaker 2: We haven't been talking about puff Daddy in a couple
Speaker 2: of days now, so tomorrow's the day. Also, Karen Reid,
Speaker 2: there could be a huge development tomorrow, so make sure
Speaker 2: you tune in. We will be following it so so closely.
Speaker 2: It's been an extraordinary night. We've been so happy to
Speaker 2: have you here. True Crime Tonight.
Speaker 4: Good Night,