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Speaker 1: One of the President's most senior economic advisors is Brian D's,

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Speaker 1: who heads the National Economic Council at the White House.

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Speaker 1: I recently had a chance to sit down with Brian

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Speaker 1: to talk about interest rates, inflation, and the general state

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Speaker 1: of the economy in the United States and around the world.

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Speaker 1: So let me ask you the first and most important question,

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Speaker 1: Are we going to go into a recession anytime in

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Speaker 1: their foreseeable future? Well, thank you for having me, And

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Speaker 1: you know, I thought we were going to start on

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Speaker 1: the uh rosie. Nope, but I should have expected nothing less.

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Speaker 1: I'll join this. I thank you, thank you for having me,

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Speaker 1: and thank you for putting this together. Um, we are,

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Speaker 1: no doubt in uncertain times. But I think that if

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Speaker 1: you look at the US economy my perspective, the most

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Speaker 1: striking feature of the US economy right now is resilience.

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Speaker 1: The resilience of households and consumer balance sheets, resilience of

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Speaker 1: business and business investment, and globe the resilience of the

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Speaker 1: US economy in in certain global environment. So, UM, we're

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Speaker 1: certainly in a complicated and in many ways unprecedented transition,

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Speaker 1: but I think that there's every reason to have a

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Speaker 1: lot of confidence in the US position in the context

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Speaker 1: of a globally uncertain environment. I'll take that as maybe

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Speaker 1: you don't know. Well, let me ask you easier question. Please,

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Speaker 1: all right, I'll take any how you want to get

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Speaker 1: think England is and you think the UK is in

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Speaker 1: a in a recession, well, uh, I think the situation

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Speaker 1: in Europe in the UK is very very difficult right now.

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Speaker 1: They face a very difficult situation. Uh. And they are

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Speaker 1: um as I was saying, in terms of the US position,

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Speaker 1: they're significantly more exposed to the energy price volatility UM.

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Speaker 1: And they don't have some of the incumbent strengths that

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Speaker 1: we have here economically. So I think it is it

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Speaker 1: is and is going to be a tough puer it

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Speaker 1: for the UK and for the European Union. Normally in

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Speaker 1: the United States, when you cut taxes, uh, it's design

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Speaker 1: to stimulate the economy, and that's what happened in Britain.

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Speaker 1: They now cutting taxes to stimulate the economy. But it's

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Speaker 1: had a seems a unfortunate impact on the British economy.

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Speaker 1: Stock markets going down, and people are are very upset

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Speaker 1: about it, or you're surprised about that. I wasn't surprised

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Speaker 1: with the market reaction. You know, I think that if we, uh,

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Speaker 1: you have to any economic policy has to be in

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Speaker 1: the context of the situation that we are in and

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Speaker 1: in a monetary tightening cycle like this. Uh. The challenge

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Speaker 1: with you know that that that policy aperture is it

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Speaker 1: just puts the uh, it puts the monetary authority in

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Speaker 1: a position of potentially having to move even tighter. I

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Speaker 1: think that that's what you saw in the reaction. And also,

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Speaker 1: you know, I would say it is important, particularly important

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Speaker 1: to maintain a focus on fiscal prudence, fiscal discipline. It

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Speaker 1: is certainly something that we have been focused on here

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Speaker 1: and uh, you know, the markets take notice. So let's

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Speaker 1: talk about another easy subject. Inflation. Inflation is as high

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Speaker 1: as it's been since I was in government. I managed

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Speaker 1: to get a higher rate than you've gotten so far.

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Speaker 1: But um, I wanted to know, in your view, is

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Speaker 1: inflation now coming down a bit as a result of

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Speaker 1: the FEDS hiking and do you expect the Fed continue

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Speaker 1: to hike U in the November and December fo MC meetings. Well,

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Speaker 1: the goodness is the second part of your question is

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Speaker 1: the easy one, as you know, because part of respecting

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Speaker 1: the independence of the FED is leaving to this if

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Speaker 1: you expect, look, the market expects that, and and okay,

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Speaker 1: have any wisdom beyond that? I think, Uh. But but

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Speaker 1: if you look at most of the data points over

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Speaker 1: the course the last couple of months, we've certainly seen

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Speaker 1: headline inflation on a month over month basis slow dramatically. Basically,

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Speaker 1: it's been flat for the last couple of months. That's

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Speaker 1: a function of the fact that we've seen energy prices

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Speaker 1: come down gas prices, uh, and that's offset price increases elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: But I think if you look broadly across the economy,

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Speaker 1: you are seeing a number of places where you're seeing

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Speaker 1: the shift. And this transition happened in in real time.

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Speaker 1: Commodity prices have have come off. You've seen that in

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Speaker 1: a number of the of durable goods segments. And at

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Speaker 1: the same time, as you know that this this process

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Speaker 1: operates with some lags. And so that's why even as

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Speaker 1: you look over the course of the last couple of months,

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Speaker 1: you've got to really, even at a moment of heightened

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Speaker 1: uncertainty that we are in right now, have to do

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Speaker 1: whatever we can to lift up from individual monthly data

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Speaker 1: points Now, when I went to college many years ago,

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Speaker 1: the standard textbook said that inflation was on average three

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Speaker 1: or four percent a year. That was relatively normal. For

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Speaker 1: the last twenty five years, we've had two percent inflation,

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Speaker 1: So we've gotten used to two percent inflation. My children

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Speaker 1: have never seen higher inflation. But the FED now says

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Speaker 1: they want to get inflation back to two percent, which

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Speaker 1: is what it was. But why why not three or

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Speaker 1: four percent? Is why does two percent have to be

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Speaker 1: a goal? And how hard is it going to be

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Speaker 1: to get down the two percent without putting unemployment up

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Speaker 1: the six percent or high higher. You know, A big

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Speaker 1: part of inflation is expectations. UH. And the risk with

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Speaker 1: inflation is not only the immediate impact on you know,

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Speaker 1: purchasing power, but also the risk that expectations get on

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Speaker 1: more get un anchored, and then it gets much more

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Speaker 1: difficult to bring inflation down. So when you ask the

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Speaker 1: question about bringing down to a level, I think one

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Speaker 1: of the most important questions is is the is the

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Speaker 1: is the shape of policy focused on making sure that

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Speaker 1: we don't lose control of those expectations. That's obviously something

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Speaker 1: that the FED keeps a close eye on. UH. And

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Speaker 1: so you know to your your question of of the process, Look,

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Speaker 1: I am fundamentally optimistic about the American economy, and I'm

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Speaker 1: optimistic that we can navigate through this transition in a

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Speaker 1: way where we come out of this as a country

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Speaker 1: and as an economy in a stronger position than when

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Speaker 1: the pandemic hit. So so yeah, at core, I do

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Speaker 1: believe that that's that's There's there's no no certainty in

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Speaker 1: any way or no no way inevitable that we are

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Speaker 1: you know, we're going into a down turn for people

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Speaker 1: live in Washington. Politicians, is it more difficult when unemployment

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Speaker 1: is going up or when inflation is going up? Inflation

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Speaker 1: affects everybody. Unemployment doesn't affect everybody, So how do you

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Speaker 1: weigh the political trade off between unemployment going up and

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Speaker 1: inflation going up? Which is more difficult for politicians or

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Speaker 1: for let's say, the administration. There's no question that inflation

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Speaker 1: affects everybody, and it affects the if it affects the psyche.

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Speaker 1: And I think that when it it affects a sense,

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Speaker 1: I think also of people's sentiment and a sense in

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Speaker 1: which things are you know, um uh in or out

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Speaker 1: of out of control? And and we see that in

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Speaker 1: consumer sentiment data. At the same time, we also, as

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Speaker 1: you asked the question about on the political side, as

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Speaker 1: economic policymakers, need to recognize that the way that economists

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Speaker 1: think about inflation and the way that Americans think about

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Speaker 1: inflation often differs. That we have this idea of headline

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Speaker 1: inflation versus core, and economists say, really should pay less

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Speaker 1: attention to headline because it has food and gas. You

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Speaker 1: asked to typical people what inflation is, it's food and gas,

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Speaker 1: and so you know, understanding the you know, the interplay

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Speaker 1: between the economics and the politics of inflation is is

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Speaker 1: something that we haven't been as used to. So let

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Speaker 1: me go back to the n a C. And NFC

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Speaker 1: was started under UM President Clinton and Bob Rubin was

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Speaker 1: the first person to hold that job. Can you explain

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Speaker 1: to people what it actually does and what the NBC

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Speaker 1: does stay to day when, for example, who's in the NBC,

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Speaker 1: who's only the n AC What is your job actually

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Speaker 1: to do? So? UM, the National Economic Council are the job,

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Speaker 1: the mandate, the mission of the organization is to coordinate

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Speaker 1: economic policy across the executive branch and across the cabinet

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Speaker 1: to make sure that the President is getting the benefit

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Speaker 1: of UH making decisions of his entire economic cabinet, and

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Speaker 1: also that the econic cabinet is getting clear direction from

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Speaker 1: the President as well, so that that two ways. So

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Speaker 1: it's a coordination function UH. On the NBC itself are

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Speaker 1: all of the relevant cabinet members, the sort of core

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Speaker 1: Economic team o MB Council, Economic Advisor's, Treasury, but also

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Speaker 1: Secretary of Labor, Secretary of Commerce, my team. The NBC

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Speaker 1: team is a small team within the White House. That

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Speaker 1: is our job is to do that coordination across the

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Speaker 1: range of economic policiation. Now, you were the deputy in

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Speaker 1: the Obama administration of the ANEC, and now you're the director.

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Speaker 1: Which NBC worked better the Obama administration one or the

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Speaker 1: Biden one? Well, on the issues that I worked on

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Speaker 1: in the Obama administration, it worked very very well. And

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Speaker 1: the current UH ANYC works very well as well. So

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Speaker 1: it's the subset of the ones I didn't work on. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about your own background for a moment. I

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Speaker 1: mentioned before you grew up in Boston area, UM, and

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Speaker 1: what did your family do? Were they in business, academics, politics,

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Speaker 1: important things like private equity that they do that. Uh.

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Speaker 1: My father is an educator, he teaches, uh. And my

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Speaker 1: mother is a civil engineer by training and worked as

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Speaker 1: an environmental engineer. Okay, So you went to Middlebury and

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Speaker 1: what did you study there? I studied political science and economics, uh,

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Speaker 1: internet within the international focus. Okay. And after you graduated,

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Speaker 1: what did you do? Then? I came here to d

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Speaker 1: C on a fellowship to the Carnegian down Itt for

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Speaker 1: International Peace, and I was doing uh, international economics, international

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Speaker 1: economic development. I had spent the better part of a

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Speaker 1: year in Argentina right before the collapse there. Became fascinated

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Speaker 1: with trade and development issues, and so I spent Uh.

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Speaker 1: I came here to d C and the Argentine and

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Speaker 1: economy collapse while you were there, No, right after I left, okay,

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Speaker 1: right after Okay, you got correlation and causation, all right.

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Speaker 1: So then you came back to Washington to do what? So?

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Speaker 1: So I I stayed here? I uh, Um, I worked.

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Speaker 1: I sort of shifted from from international policy, economic policy,

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Speaker 1: domestic policy. Then I went to law school, left e C,

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Speaker 1: and I came back here. We went to law school

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Speaker 1: to be a lawyer or not. I went to law

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Speaker 1: school to UH to know not to be a lawyer,

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Speaker 1: but because because I was fascinated. As I was working

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Speaker 1: on the economic war economic elements, it became clear that

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Speaker 1: most of policy is actually understanding law um in different ways.

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Speaker 1: And so I went. I went to I went with

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Speaker 1: the idea that I would continue to work in policy.

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Speaker 1: But then so you didn't want to practice law ever,

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Speaker 1: wasn't my objective? Okay, So how did you get involved

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Speaker 1: with the Obama administration? Did you volunteer in the campaign

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Speaker 1: or how did you get involved in the campaign or

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Speaker 1: the administration? So I started working on the two thousand

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Speaker 1: seven two thousand new campaign, actually worked for UH I

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Speaker 1: had I had the most important experience. I campaigned again

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Speaker 1: camp candidate Obama for about nine months, working for Senator

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Speaker 1: Clinton Secretary Clinton UH and then after they lost, I

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Speaker 1: was fortunate enough to then join the Obama campaign in

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Speaker 1: campaign from what did then Senator Omama say about that?

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Speaker 1: The good news was I was junior enough in the

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Speaker 1: campaign and the Senator I don't think particularly aware of

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Speaker 1: that of my transition to his. So he got elected,

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Speaker 1: and then you got this position as a special assistant

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Speaker 1: the President of Economic policy. And what was the biggest

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Speaker 1: thing that you accomplished during the Obama administration in your view,

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Speaker 1: My first project upon coming into government was to work

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Speaker 1: as part of the team that did the restructuring of

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Speaker 1: General Motives and Chrysler as well as the finance companies

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Speaker 1: UM as well. And so that was basically from you

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Speaker 1: will all many of you will recall November December of

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Speaker 1: two thousand eight right through to the summer of two

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Speaker 1: thousand nine. That was that was my over overriding. So

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Speaker 1: after the Obama administration, you join the dark side of

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Speaker 1: money management and you work for black Rock, but in

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Speaker 1: charge of global sustainability. So what does that really mean?

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Speaker 1: What were you doing at black Rock? So two things.

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Speaker 1: One was trying to uh actually do uh financial research

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Speaker 1: to understand what are drivers of long term economic performance

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Speaker 1: that are uh that are financially relevant but that may

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Speaker 1: not be on the mind of traditional investors to you know,

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Speaker 1: give you a concrete example. One of the most uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, persistent measures of financial performance uncorrelated is the

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Speaker 1: rate of change at which a company brings down its

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Speaker 1: carbon emissions, not just the level of carbon emissions, but

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Speaker 1: the rate of change of doing stuff. And you know,

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Speaker 1: we did a lot of research around that to to

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Speaker 1: find that that's that is in part because it is

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Speaker 1: an uncorrelated UH measure of operational performance. Better management team

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Speaker 1: is actually better manage against that, and so that becomes

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Speaker 1: the kind of thing that you can invest invest against.

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Speaker 1: But it also expands the universe of what investors are

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Speaker 1: thinking about. So when President Biden was starting to run

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Speaker 1: for president, you knew him when he was vice president.

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Speaker 1: You're in the bomb administration. Did you support him? Where

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Speaker 1: you work in the campaign for UM then Vice President Biden?

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Speaker 1: Or did you work for somebody else? I was for

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Speaker 1: for for for us of that time, I was I

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Speaker 1: was busy. I had a job at a family I

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Speaker 1: would any time that, any time anyone called, I would offer.

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Speaker 1: So when did you actually get involved with the Biden people?

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Speaker 1: Wasn't after you won the election? Then they asked you

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Speaker 1: to help with the transition. So I did some work

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Speaker 1: in volunteering during to help on the developing some elements

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Speaker 1: of the platform during that came together in sort of

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Speaker 1: his his his general election economic policy. White House staff

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Speaker 1: jobs are notoriously long houred and you have two little children, So, um,

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Speaker 1: how do you manage your time? And how come you

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Speaker 1: have no gray hair as a result of working these

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Speaker 1: long hours in two administrations. If you if the camera

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Speaker 1: gets close enough, you'll see some uh I Uh, it's

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a it's a it's a constant challenge,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's I don't have I don't have uh

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Speaker 1: particular wisdom or inside into how to answer it other

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Speaker 1: than you know, needing to be extremely efficient with the

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Speaker 1: time that you have, higher great staff and build a

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Speaker 1: great team. Uh. There's I've got an extraordinary uh an

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Speaker 1: ec team and core team inside the White House, without

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Speaker 1: which I wouldn't be able to do this. And also

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Speaker 1: but it also takes a um an understanding family because

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Speaker 1: no matter how good you are at prioritization, time management,

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Speaker 1: and productivity with your own time, there was always, uh,

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Speaker 1: there was always something that happens and always something that

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Speaker 1: comes up. Your children are young. Um, so you go

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Speaker 1: to PTA meetings and people give you economic advice PTA meetings,

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Speaker 1: so they kind of say, I have an idea for

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Speaker 1: you when and fighting inflation? Has that ever happened? People

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Speaker 1: are extraordinarily generous with their advice. I suppose uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: somebody wants to write a book about you and so

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Speaker 1: here's what what would you say that you feel you've

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Speaker 1: accomplished or what would you like to have as your legacy.

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Speaker 1: I'm just I'm reflecting on your question and how boring

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Speaker 1: a book it would be. Uh. I guess I would

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Speaker 1: say two things. One is, I think that we are

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Speaker 1: in a position where we could actually demonstrate that for

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Speaker 1: the United States, doing dedicated public investment over the long

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Speaker 1: term in areas of high productivity research, semiconductors, infrastructure, clean

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Speaker 1: energy manufacturing. Showing that we can actually do that in

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Speaker 1: a way that changes the trajectory of the economy is

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Speaker 1: something that I would love to be part of demonstrating

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Speaker 1: and part of associating. The second thing for me is

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Speaker 1: I think that one thing that I have tried to

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Speaker 1: do and that I think we have tried to do,

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Speaker 1: is to say that gonna have an economic policy where

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Speaker 1: accelerating the clean energy transition is at the core of

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Speaker 1: our economic policy. It's not that we have an economic

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Speaker 1: strategy and then we think about climate change and clean

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Speaker 1: energy policy. It's actually at the core. I think we

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Speaker 1: are doing that effectively doing that, and that's certainly something

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Speaker 1: that I hope sustains across time. What is your career

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Speaker 1: advice about how best to prepare for this kind of job.

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Speaker 1: I would say a couple of things. One is, um,

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Speaker 1: I can't encourage strongly enough people anybody who has any

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Speaker 1: inkling towards public service to run toward it and u

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Speaker 1: and engage in it. It's incredibly important at this point

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Speaker 1: in our country right now too, for more people to serve.

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Speaker 1: I think the second is, particularly if if you're interested

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Speaker 1: in getting into policies, then probably elements of that that

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Speaker 1: that that are also true in the private sector, to

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Speaker 1: which is you know, be humble, be willing to work

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Speaker 1: a lot, and be willing to both not have any

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Speaker 1: expectation or sense of entitlement, but also uh have a

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Speaker 1: lot of aspiration and willing to step to the table.

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Speaker 1: So recently we had the an act pass called the

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Speaker 1: Inflation Reduction Act. I mean, who came up with that name?

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Speaker 1: Really it's a great name, um I guess so, But

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Speaker 1: but you really think it's going to reduce inflation? It

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Speaker 1: seemed like it was spending a lot of money, and

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Speaker 1: how is the inflation going to be reduced by that?

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Speaker 1: See it's because of the Inflation Reduction Act. Uh So

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Speaker 1: joking aside, I actually think that it's UH. It's it

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Speaker 1: is an appropriate name and UH it goes to the

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Speaker 1: it goes to the structure of of UH. If if

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Speaker 1: I could say that in a in a walkie way,

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Speaker 1: the role of fiscal policy in a period of of

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Speaker 1: monetary tightening. What you want to do is you want

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Speaker 1: to pro you want to take measures that will lower

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Speaker 1: costs for individuals and do it in a way that

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Speaker 1: lowers the federal deficit. Because if you're lowering the federal

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Speaker 1: deficit at the same time that you're lowing costs for individuals,

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Speaker 1: then you're actually operating in the same direction. Now that's

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Speaker 1: complicated to do from a policy perspective, but that is

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Speaker 1: exactly what the Inflation Reduction Act accomplish, but doesn't really

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Speaker 1: lower federal debt and and title deficit because I thought

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Speaker 1: it was just lowering it but the lower ware it

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Speaker 1: would otherwise have been, But it's not actually producing a

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Speaker 1: net reduced reduction in the title of debt isn't so

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Speaker 1: we're producing it below where the policy people said it

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Speaker 1: would have otherwise been right. So the appropriate way to

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Speaker 1: judge any piece of legislation is is it going to

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Speaker 1: reduce or increase the deficit compared to the baseline at

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Speaker 1: the time, and the Inflation Reduction Act will reduce the

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Speaker 1: deficit compared to the baseline by you know, about two

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Speaker 1: hundred and sixty billion dollars depending in the first decade,

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Speaker 1: probably more than a trillion dollars in the second decade.

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Speaker 1: And importantly, it does it in ways like you know,

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Speaker 1: probably the simplest way to understand is the provision that

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Speaker 1: allows Medicare to for the first time, negotiate for better

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Speaker 1: prices for prescription drugs. That will mean that Medicare is

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Speaker 1: spending less money on drugs. That will lower federal spending,

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Speaker 1: but it will also lower the cost of drugs to

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Speaker 1: Medicare recipients and also to recipients in the private market,

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Speaker 1: since Medicare is such a large purchaser. Okay um. In

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Speaker 1: the Inflation Reduction Act, a lot of the taxing increases

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Speaker 1: that the President had previously proposed the Build Back Better

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Speaker 1: Act did not get in. There are those tax increases

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Speaker 1: off the table for the remainder of the Biden term,

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Speaker 1: or you're not precluded from uh those are those uh,

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Speaker 1: those are policies the present thing thought made sense was

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Speaker 1: would have supported if they were in the legislation and

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Speaker 1: continues to support going forward. And I will say, even

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Speaker 1: for all the things that weren't in there, one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons, to go back to your previous question why

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Speaker 1: that bill reduces the deficit and actually helps in reducing

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Speaker 1: inflation across time, is that what is in there, for example,

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Speaker 1: is a new minimum tax book minimum tax um for

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Speaker 1: the largest corporations, those with over a billion dollars and earnings.

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Speaker 1: I think that that's the kind of reasonable, common sense

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Speaker 1: tax reform that makes sense. It does mean that some

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Speaker 1: people will pay more in taxes, but certainly that kind

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Speaker 1: of base broadening reform, there's a lot of there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of important sensibility to it. On the day that

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Speaker 1: the Inflation Reduction Act as signed, record high inflation numbers

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Speaker 1: came out. So did you ever consider maybe adjusting the

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Speaker 1: schedule of the signing ceremony or was it something you

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Speaker 1: you said that who told the president the numbers were

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Speaker 1: gonna be that high that morning and and maybe you

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Speaker 1: should change the signing ceremony. I think that that number

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Speaker 1: and others go to how people are experiencing inflation today

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Speaker 1: because one of the principal reasons why that headline number

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Speaker 1: was basically flat. Was because in the month prior gas

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Speaker 1: prices had calmed down by a very significant amount, and

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Speaker 1: that is really important for typical Americans UH monthly balance sheets.

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Speaker 1: But it also is important because it's it's one of

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Speaker 1: the most visible price signals in our economy. Now you're

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Speaker 1: two in years into almost two years into this administration, UM,

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Speaker 1: and you expect to stay for another two years I think,

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Speaker 1: which it's a long UM two years, so you're not

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Speaker 1: worn out and you could see doing this for another

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Speaker 1: two years at least, if not more. I've got no

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Speaker 1: plans to leave, and I've got my head down and

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Speaker 1: certainly fully fully absorbed in the work we're doing. So

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Speaker 1: in the next two years, let's suppose you control Congress.

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Speaker 1: What is you what you'd like to do most in

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Speaker 1: economic policy in the next two years. What would be

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Speaker 1: your highest goal other than getting inflation down and unemployment

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Speaker 1: keeping a reasonable level? Is there another type of Chips

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Speaker 1: Act or some other major piece of legislation that you

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Speaker 1: want to get through? Look, I think there's UM. There's

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Speaker 1: a number of priorities that that UH I would love

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Speaker 1: to see us make more progress on. UM. I'll answer

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Speaker 1: your question. But as a decide, the first and most

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Speaker 1: important thing that that we're gripped by and focused on

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Speaker 1: now is effectively implementing this historic set of legislation that

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Speaker 1: we have accomplished. The implementation of this to your point

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Speaker 1: about chips and otherwise, the effective implementation across the board

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Speaker 1: is going to make a difference, a big difference in

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Speaker 1: terms of uh, the broader economic impact. But look, I

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Speaker 1: think we need to make more progress on tax reform.

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Speaker 1: We made some steps here, but it's uh. Showing that

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Speaker 1: we can as a country effectively fund our prior orities

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Speaker 1: and also bill fairness into the tax code is important.

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Speaker 1: It's important for trust, it's important for strengthening our democratic institutions.

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Speaker 1: We need to make more progress on underscoring that issues

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Speaker 1: that often get referenced as care or the care economy

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Speaker 1: are not social issues, their core economic issues. They're a

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Speaker 1: core to our labor force, uh, their core to our

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Speaker 1: productivity as a country. And there's other issues that are

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Speaker 1: now you know, coming to floor, like housing and housing costs.

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Speaker 1: The fact that we have persistent under supply of affordable

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Speaker 1: housing in this country is a policy choice decades in

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Speaker 1: the making. We could do something about that, and now

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Speaker 1: is a really important time to do that given the

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Speaker 1: period in the monetary policy cycle. There's a number of

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Speaker 1: places where we can make progress, places where there is

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Speaker 1: a lot of actual bipartisan support. So UM and I would,

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Speaker 1: I could, I could go through a much longer list

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Speaker 1: if you think time. So what's the greatest pleasure of

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Speaker 1: your job and what's the worst part of your job

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Speaker 1: other than interviewing like this, But what's the greatest pleasure

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Speaker 1: and what's the greatest um less pleasurable part? So, you know,

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Speaker 1: having gone out and being in comp administrations, by far,

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Speaker 1: the greatest pleasure is the people you spend so much

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Speaker 1: time with them, but also the quality of people that

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Speaker 1: can come. You know, a white house is it's a

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Speaker 1: in a sense, it's a terrible place to work. It's

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Speaker 1: very hard and all the like, but it's also a

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Speaker 1: place where you know, the the the you know, the

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Speaker 1: reservation price or a wage that you would pay is

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Speaker 1: negative because you know, everybody wants to come and and

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Speaker 1: and and have an opportunity. So you can attract great people,

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Speaker 1: diverse people with diverse backgrounds and extraordinary things to bear.

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Speaker 1: So you make um friendships, uh and and bonds with

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Speaker 1: people and so that's at core the best. What's the

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Speaker 1: worst part, the best part, I think the most challenging

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Speaker 1: part is that your time is never your own. That's

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Speaker 1: something kind of is something you you have to be

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Speaker 1: prepared that something always can happen, and usually something does happen.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to hear more of my interviews. You

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Speaker 1: can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple or

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Speaker 1: wherever you listen and s