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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and unbost Creative. I'm Bridget Todd

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Speaker 1: and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 1: It has been a really weird time on Twitter lately,

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Speaker 1: so last night Twitter's new owner, Elon Musk suspended journalists

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Speaker 1: from big name publications like CNN and The New York

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Speaker 1: Times for doing pretty straightforward reporting about the banning of

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Speaker 1: a Twitter account that tracked Elon Musk's personal jet using

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Speaker 1: publicly available FAA data. Then Musk joined at Twitter Spaces,

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Speaker 1: which is basically Twitter's audio chat function, to talk about this,

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Speaker 1: and when Buzzfeeds tech reporter Katie and Anopolis grilled him

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Speaker 1: about it and started really asking him some questions about

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Speaker 1: his moderation inconsistencies, Ellen abruptly left the spaces and then

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Speaker 1: Spaces was basically shut down for everyone globally. Now, Elon

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Speaker 1: said this was just a glitch, but I don't know

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Speaker 1: that timing just seems awful suspicious to me. You know.

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Speaker 1: When Elon first bought Twitter, he went on and on

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Speaker 1: about how he wanted to make it this haven for

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Speaker 1: free speech, even going so far as saying that he

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Speaker 1: had not banned the Twitter account that tweets about the

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Speaker 1: location of his private jet, that is until he did

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Speaker 1: ban that account. And I think if reporters and journalists

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Speaker 1: are going to be retaliated against for doing pretty straightforward

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Speaker 1: reporting about him, it sends a pretty clear signal about

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Speaker 1: what he actually thinks about protecting speech. And this all

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Speaker 1: comes as Musk is also banning links to the Twitter

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Speaker 1: alternative Mastodon and flagging any links to Mathodon as containing malware. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: it was wild. So given all of this, I thought

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Speaker 1: it might make sense to remember how we got here,

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Speaker 1: so I joined my friends Annie and Samantha over at

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Speaker 1: the podcast Stuff Mom never told you to talk through

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Speaker 1: the origin stories of Elon Musk buying Twitter, And I'm curious,

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Speaker 1: are are you gonna stay on Twitter? Were you never

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Speaker 1: on Twitter? Are you looking for alternatives? I'm definitely shopping

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Speaker 1: around where I might wind up. Who knows, um, So

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Speaker 1: let me know if if you have platforms that you're

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Speaker 1: liking or want to talk through any of them. Hey,

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Speaker 1: this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to stephone. Never

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Speaker 1: told your protection of I Heart Radio, and today we

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Speaker 1: are once again thrilled to be joined by the fabulous,

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Speaker 1: fantastic Bridget Todd. Welcome, Bridgets. We're always so happy to

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Speaker 1: have you. Thank you for having me. I'm so happy

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Speaker 1: to be back here and happy, happy, late thanksgiving Yes

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Speaker 1: to you too. Okay, So, Bridget, Samantha and I the

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Speaker 1: topic you brought today are very We're very excited you

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Speaker 1: brought it because we have a lot of questions, but

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Speaker 1: also we've been meaning to talk about it, but we

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Speaker 1: were hopeful that you would talk about it because I

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Speaker 1: feel like you have a lot more knowledge and expertise

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Speaker 1: in this arena. So I'm so I'm so excited that

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Speaker 1: this is what we're talking about today, which is Twitter. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you know, the last time you were on, we

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Speaker 1: actually talked about the fact that it was the beginning

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Speaker 1: of the end kind of had them that moment because

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Speaker 1: at that moment we knew that Elon Musk was coming on.

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Speaker 1: We're like, oh, no, here do we go. Uh So definitely,

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Speaker 1: as we were watching this, I feel like it was

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Speaker 1: just yesterday that we mentioned this, So I'm sure you've

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Speaker 1: got so much more in depth information from the beginning

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Speaker 1: of to today. Yeah, I I I mean, it's it's

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Speaker 1: so weird and just two level set like we it

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Speaker 1: does feel like we're in a little bit of unprecedented waters.

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Speaker 1: You know. I have a lot of expertise when it

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Speaker 1: comes to tech technology and platforms and how they run

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Speaker 1: and how they're moderated. But this has never really happened before.

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Speaker 1: Since I have been working in in the internet spaces,

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Speaker 1: I've never seen a billionaire I one of our largest

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Speaker 1: digital communications platforms and like change the culture pretty much

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Speaker 1: single handedly overnight. So I am going to try to

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Speaker 1: bring whatever expertise I have and answer whatever questions folks have.

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Speaker 1: But I don't know a lot because this is just

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Speaker 1: like a very new, weird experience. I am learning right

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Speaker 1: alongside all of y'all and figuring out what's happening um

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Speaker 1: in real times. It's it's kind of exciting, kind of interesting,

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Speaker 1: but also tb D. Yeah, which I guess we should say.

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Speaker 1: We're recording this on November because things are changing rapidly.

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Speaker 1: Things are changing rapidly. A lot has happened, as you said, Samantha,

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Speaker 1: since Elon Musk came on board, So yeah, we'll see.

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Speaker 1: I think there's a lot more to come. Yeah, well

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Speaker 1: that's a great place to start, you know, just the

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Speaker 1: rapid changing of the situation. I initially started putting together

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Speaker 1: an outline a couple of I think like last week,

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Speaker 1: and mostly all that stuff that I wrote is now

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Speaker 1: has now been changed, So hopefully this will be not

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Speaker 1: totally out of out of date by the time folks

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Speaker 1: hear it. UM. I have to ask before we even start, like,

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Speaker 1: have you sense that your relationship with Twitter has changed

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Speaker 1: since Elon Musk took over? Uh? Yeah, I would say so,

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Speaker 1: UM because one of the biggest things that I've experienced

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Speaker 1: with Twitter since um Elon Musk has been um either

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Speaker 1: kind of a sense of uncertainty or confusion or people

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Speaker 1: will contact me and be like I'm not sure. I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure what's going on, so you can find me

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Speaker 1: on this other social platform or whatever. And then I

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Speaker 1: have had a several experiences where I went to check

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Speaker 1: on um something somebody uh somebody on Twitter is doing

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Speaker 1: that I follow and their account is not there anymore,

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Speaker 1: to deactivated, and kind of just a general like I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure if this is coming from who I think

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Speaker 1: this is coming from. I guess like, um, like a

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Speaker 1: loss of us like I'm not sure what is going

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Speaker 1: on and if I can trust anything that is happening, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean essentially, I think that's the biggest thing is

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Speaker 1: I don't know if this is a real account to

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Speaker 1: someone at all. The amount of ads I've been getting

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Speaker 1: have gotten up. It's the same three ads, but I'm like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, it is constantly there, which we all

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Speaker 1: know why, but I mean because they're losing so much money.

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Speaker 1: But um, I think one of the big things is

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Speaker 1: like I will see parody accounts, which because of the

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Speaker 1: verification system has kind of completely gone out the window

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Speaker 1: that I don't know if it's real. I think there

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Speaker 1: was one at one point that I was like, oh

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Speaker 1: that that one is real. Oh that's real. Like that's

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Speaker 1: kind of one of those moments as well as the

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Speaker 1: amount of misinformation has grown. To me, at least I

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Speaker 1: knew if it was coming from this specific account or

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Speaker 1: type of account. What was happening. Now I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, wait, did that actually happen? And I

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Speaker 1: don't know anymore if it's real or not, Like so

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Speaker 1: many things that are aimed specifically at Elon Musk and like,

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Speaker 1: is that is that real? Is that really happening? Did

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Speaker 1: he do these things? Or are people saying this in

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Speaker 1: order to fear monger or make it even bigger, and

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Speaker 1: then he comes back and saying, just kidding, that didn't happen,

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Speaker 1: Like I don't. I don't know at this point who

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Speaker 1: to trust and who not to trust. Of course on

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Speaker 1: our stuff, I've never told you account we the followers

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Speaker 1: just dropped because so many people have left. I'm assuming

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Speaker 1: maybe they just all thet I don't know, but like

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Speaker 1: the amount of people that had left has like increased,

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Speaker 1: and in the fact that has impacted our numbers for

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Speaker 1: a while. Not that we we don't do too much

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Speaker 1: because I am still fearful of writing anything uh on

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Speaker 1: any of the social media accounts at all, but it's

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Speaker 1: interesting to see how that is fluctuating as well. The

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Speaker 1: people who I again trusted losing their verification because they

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Speaker 1: didn't pay for us, so therefore I don't know if

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Speaker 1: that's them anymore. There's so much like I don't quite

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Speaker 1: know what's reality what's fake, And then the amount of

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Speaker 1: disformation and people that I'm trying like have been banned

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Speaker 1: or back on that, I'm like, oh god, why. So

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Speaker 1: it's really sad because Twitter has been something that I

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Speaker 1: use to like, let me know what's going on is

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Speaker 1: faster than um any other news platforms, and and seeing

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Speaker 1: like the truth of what's actually happening, whether it's information

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Speaker 1: about wrongful deaths or protests around the country, around the world.

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Speaker 1: So it's there's a lot that I'm like, uh, I'm

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Speaker 1: kind of lost, but also at the same time entertained

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Speaker 1: because it's going in flames. Yes, A thousand times. Yes,

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Speaker 1: So I have seen all the things that y'all have

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Speaker 1: seen and felt and sensed. I have also seen and

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Speaker 1: felt and sensed. And for folks listening, even if you're

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Speaker 1: someone who doesn't use Twitter, like the majority of Americans,

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Speaker 1: or like will never use Twitter, not a social media person,

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Speaker 1: I am confident that I can help help you see

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Speaker 1: why this is a big, a big deal for all

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Speaker 1: of us, not just folks who are on Twitter, because

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Speaker 1: I do think that a lot of the reporting on

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Speaker 1: this is like, oh, well, this matters because it's Twitter

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Speaker 1: and everybody uses Twitter. Not so right, Like when you

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Speaker 1: compare Twitter to other social media platforms like Facebook, only

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Speaker 1: a small amount of Americans use are on Twitter actively,

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Speaker 1: and even less Americans actually tweet and participate there, So

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Speaker 1: we're talking about a small amount of folks. However, the

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Speaker 1: reason why this actually like kind of matters is because

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Speaker 1: the people who are active on Twitter are kind of like,

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Speaker 1: I guess you can sort of call them like the tastemakers, right,

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Speaker 1: Like journalists, researchers, activists, organizers, people who are really able

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Speaker 1: to shape conversation and shape our public discourse and sort

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Speaker 1: of have an influence on what becomes part of our

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Speaker 1: public kind of conversation. Right. And so, Samantha, exactly like

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Speaker 1: what you were saying, when people need quick, up to date,

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Speaker 1: hopefully somewhat reliable information, they're not going to Instagram. They're

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Speaker 1: not going to Tumbler, they're not going to snapchat or TikTok.

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Speaker 1: They're going to Twitter. You know, there's a reason why

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Speaker 1: when there's a you know, mass shooting on a campus,

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Speaker 1: people can follow updates quickly on Twitter. And so Twitter

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Speaker 1: is not just this place where public discourse is shaped.

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Speaker 1: It is also a place where you just go to

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Speaker 1: get easy, quick access to hopefully reliable information about stuff

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Speaker 1: happening near you. And so you can sort of get

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Speaker 1: a sense of why this is a platform where these

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Speaker 1: kind of power struggles happen, right, Like, it's not surprising

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Speaker 1: that like a person like Donald Trump, Twitter was his

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Speaker 1: platform because you can have such outsized influence in getting

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Speaker 1: a message out there quickly and effectively. And I just

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Speaker 1: don't think that we have another social media platform that

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Speaker 1: mimics that so effectively. Like Facebook moves a little bit slower,

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Speaker 1: even though more people are there. Instagram, the timeline moves

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Speaker 1: in such an algorithmic way that you don't need It's like,

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Speaker 1: if I posted something that was really important, it's not

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Speaker 1: even a guarantee that everybody who follows me would see it, right.

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Speaker 1: And so Twitter is such a fast moving platform, and

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Speaker 1: I think it's one of the reasons why we're seeing

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Speaker 1: it spring up as a battleground in this like highly

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Speaker 1: polarized kind of culture war. I'm really glad that you're

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Speaker 1: here to make this case because we recently it was

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Speaker 1: recently Thanksgiving and I went home and um, a lot

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Speaker 1: of people were kind of, you know, laughing about Elon

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Speaker 1: Musk and Twitter, and there are definitely some funny aspects

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Speaker 1: of it, but they're all like, well, I hate Twitter,

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Speaker 1: so I'm not sad to see it go. And I

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Speaker 1: was like, well, I have a lot of problems with

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Speaker 1: Twitter too, but it's important it does matter, and it

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Speaker 1: is a shame like that we're seeing this happen. And

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Speaker 1: there have been things, examples of stuff that took off

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Speaker 1: on Twitter and then fundamentally changed our public discourse, whether

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Speaker 1: you use it or not, totally right. And so this

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Speaker 1: is this is the drama will always beat. Even if

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Speaker 1: you are not someone who was actively using Twitter, you

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Speaker 1: have felt the cultural impact of movements and conversations that

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Speaker 1: started on Twitter. You know, if you think about the

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Speaker 1: way that people who traditionally have not necessarily had a

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Speaker 1: lot of access to power and influence they can use

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Speaker 1: was Twitter to build up that power and that voice

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Speaker 1: and that influence. I could give you a million different

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Speaker 1: examples of concrete changes that we're all aware of and

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Speaker 1: probably all felt directly that started on Twitter. You know, Uh,

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Speaker 1: it's not surprising to me that Twitter has been used

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Speaker 1: as this way to really hold power structures accountable. When

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Speaker 1: Toronto Burke started to me Too movement, you know, she

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Speaker 1: had this this movement that she had started for black

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Speaker 1: and brown women and girls who were survivors of sexual violence,

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Speaker 1: and when actor Alissa Milano tweeted about it on Twitter

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Speaker 1: using the hashtag me too, that's when it really took off, right,

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Speaker 1: And so you see the the power that you know,

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Speaker 1: generating conversations on the platform can have. If not for Twitter,

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Speaker 1: I don't know that we would have the me to

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Speaker 1: move it the way that the way that it was,

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Speaker 1: I don't know that, you know, all of these different

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Speaker 1: powerful abusers would be eventually held to account and that

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Speaker 1: we would be having a national conversation about things like

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Speaker 1: gender and sexual violence, you know, I'm Another great example

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Speaker 1: is a friend of mine, April Rain. She tweeted about

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Speaker 1: how white the Oscars nominees were and tweeted Oscar so white.

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Speaker 1: It completely took off. People were tweeting things like Oscar

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Speaker 1: so white, it touches my hair without asking, Oscar so white?

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Speaker 1: It you know, dada. And because of that conversation, it

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Speaker 1: fundamentally changed how the Oscars were that year. Uh Spike

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Speaker 1: Lee won an Oscar and he he said that he

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Speaker 1: doesn't think it would ever have happened without that campaign,

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Speaker 1: which started as a tweet a hashtag on Twitter. Look

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Speaker 1: at the way that it was instrumental during Arab Spring, right,

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Speaker 1: and so like, there are so many ways and times where,

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Speaker 1: particularly outside of the US, Twitter has been used to

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Speaker 1: document you know abusive power and hold that power to account.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's even if you're not on Twitter,

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Speaker 1: you've probably felt or seen some kind of the impact

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Speaker 1: of some kind of movement that was started on Twitter,

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Speaker 1: you know. And as you're talking about these movements which

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Speaker 1: are so huge, I had to go back to the

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Speaker 1: original idea of like our lingo changed complet lately with

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Speaker 1: what is now the hashtag as well, because that actually

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Speaker 1: originated in two thousand seven. According to one of the

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Speaker 1: resources that I looked at on Twitter, like it literally

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Speaker 1: changed how we looked at so much of our conversations online. Um.

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Speaker 1: It brought up a way for us to pass messages

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Speaker 1: and bring up big issues with what I would have

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Speaker 1: known as pound sign, which just the lineals don't know

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Speaker 1: what that is. And that's fine, I'm fine with it.

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Speaker 1: I'm okay with it. Um. But like that in itself

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Speaker 1: has begun a new conversation the zite guys in itself

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Speaker 1: had changed because of things like that on Twitter, and

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Speaker 1: it's such a big significant thing that we don't often

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Speaker 1: think about, and knowing that before two thou seven that

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Speaker 1: didn't exist, and what a powerful tool it is on

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Speaker 1: across all social media Oh my god, Sam, this is

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Speaker 1: my your your I will keep my comments as brief

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Speaker 1: as I can. This is like my favorite topic. The

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Speaker 1: way that things that originated on different social media platforms,

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Speaker 1: in this case Twitter, have changed fundamentally changed the way

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Speaker 1: that we communicate digitally is fascinating to me. I don't

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Speaker 1: remember when hashtags were first rolled out, and previously there

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Speaker 1: wasn't really an easy way to quickly figure out what

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Speaker 1: everybody was saying on on a particular topic. And I

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Speaker 1: still remember I was working at a social media management

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Speaker 1: at the time when the conversation was like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: should we use hashtags on Facebook? Like does it work

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Speaker 1: that way? And you know, people still use hashtag. You

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Speaker 1: go to TikTok, like one of the biggest, fastest growing

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Speaker 1: platforms out there. When you scroll down to the bottom

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Speaker 1: of TikTok, people tend to include hashtags. And so it's

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Speaker 1: interesting how this mode of this particular mode of digital

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Speaker 1: communication did not just stay on Twitter, how it really

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Speaker 1: shaped other platforms as well, and I think has become

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Speaker 1: a pivotal way in terms of like how we just

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Speaker 1: think about the way that discourse works online. I think

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Speaker 1: before the hashtag, we didn't think about it as like

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Speaker 1: I should be able to pull up a hashtag and

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Speaker 1: get a sense of, like the diversity of thought and

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Speaker 1: conversation on any one topic. And now that's kind of

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Speaker 1: integral to the way that we understand communications online. This

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Speaker 1: is something I could nerd out on for hours. It's

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Speaker 1: probably not interesting to anybody but me, but I found

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Speaker 1: it fascinating. To be fair, again, I was late in

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Speaker 1: coming to social media. I still in latant understanding social

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Speaker 1: media to a certain extent. So when I first started,

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Speaker 1: I was like, what are these hashtags? I'm just gonna

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Speaker 1: write sentences on there and there no sense. But I'm like,

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Speaker 1: that makes them blue, Like you can click on it.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna do it, which is a whole different conversation itself.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, look technology, which is again how I react

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Speaker 1: to most things. But going back to where we started,

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Speaker 1: because finding something that's coming to this point, which seems

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Speaker 1: apocalyptic for a social media brand, but one of the

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Speaker 1: oldest one that has been out there, that's still like

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Speaker 1: stood the test of time outside of Facebook, it's interesting

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Speaker 1: to see what is happening because it does feel like

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Speaker 1: we have lived this extension of a life, of a

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Speaker 1: creation of something completely different. So with all that, how

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Speaker 1: do we get here? How did this happen? Great question?

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Speaker 1: So this is something again that I wish I saw

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Speaker 1: more of in the reporting. People kind of gloss over it,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's actually a really big part of

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Speaker 1: the story, and it's important to not just closs over it,

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Speaker 1: which is that you know, Musk's decision to to buy Twitter,

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Speaker 1: per his own statements, was rooted in transphobia. Um, he'd

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Speaker 1: been talking about buying Twitter for a while and Twitter

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Speaker 1: added intentionally misgendering people to their list a prohibited behavior

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Speaker 1: on the platform. So you can't, like, as a means

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Speaker 1: of trying to harm someone, you cannot misgender them. So

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Speaker 1: in the right wing, I guess you'll call it like

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Speaker 1: a parody site. Even that doesn't seem quite correct, but

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Speaker 1: we'll call it a parody website for the sake of conversation.

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Speaker 1: The Babylon b they violated this rule when they tweeted

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Speaker 1: a transphobic joke in scare quotes. Um that Dr Rachel Levine,

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Speaker 1: who was the first openly transfour star officer in the

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Speaker 1: military and currently the Assistant Secretary for Health in the US,

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Speaker 1: to part at Health and Human services. They made a

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Speaker 1: crack on Twitter that she had been named quote man

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Speaker 1: of the Year, right, and so a lot of the report,

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Speaker 1: first of all, it's wild to me, how like but

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Speaker 1: that level of humor has not evolved since that movie

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Speaker 1: Ace Venture a Pet Detective, Like we're still in nine Like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, like like get a new joke, people

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Speaker 1: is it is so tired. But a lot of people

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Speaker 1: reported that the Babylon Bee was banned from Twitter for

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Speaker 1: this for this tweet, but that technically is not correct.

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Speaker 1: Twitter said that the Babylon Bee could have their account

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Speaker 1: back in twelve hours, but that that countdown could not

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Speaker 1: start until they deleted that particular tweet. They refused to

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Speaker 1: delete that tweet, so they were unable to tweet, so

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Speaker 1: they weren't technically banned. They kind of decided like we

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Speaker 1: are not we are going to die on this hill

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Speaker 1: of this tweet, and if we can't tweet, that's fine.

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Speaker 1: So at this time, Musk was already the biggest shareholder

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Speaker 1: of Twitter, and he had been invited to join its

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Speaker 1: board of directors. Um In April, Elion and offered to

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Speaker 1: buy Twitter, and he said that it was specifically that

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Speaker 1: Babylon b situation that prompted him to do so that

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Speaker 1: like that was the final straw, watching the Babylon Be

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Speaker 1: not be able to tweet because they refused to delete

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Speaker 1: this joke. The Babylon Be confirmed this to The Washington Times,

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Speaker 1: saying we have had some communication with Musk. Uh he

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Speaker 1: wanted to confirm that we had in fact been suspended

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Speaker 1: from Twitter. He reached out to us before he publicly

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Speaker 1: asked his followers if they think Twitter vigorously adheres to

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Speaker 1: the principle of free expression. He even mused on that

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Speaker 1: call that he might need to buy Twitter. So it's

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Speaker 1: to me, it's like pretty disappointing and also very important

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Speaker 1: that Elon Musk's you know, tenure at Twitter really starts

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Speaker 1: with his desire to protect transphobic jokes in scare quotes

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Speaker 1: as protected speech and free speech on the platform. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's terribly disappointing, and I think it's related

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Speaker 1: to the ways that we're seeing him, you know, at

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Speaker 1: the rain at Twitter right now. So disappointed because from

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Speaker 1: what I do understand, he does have a trade ends

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Speaker 1: child and and like obviously the relationship is not good.

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Speaker 1: They disowned Musk as there are parental figure but it

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Speaker 1: seems like just an attack on them if I were

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Speaker 1: If I were them, I would think this as well.

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Speaker 1: But I'm just so disappointing to know that you could

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Speaker 1: really care so little of your own child that you're

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Speaker 1: willing to go into forty four billion dollars in debt

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Speaker 1: to go for this. Yes, it is I mean, the

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Speaker 1: this is a weird aside, But like, I actually spend

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Speaker 1: a lot of time thinking about Elon Musk's like personal motivations.

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Speaker 1: I obviously don't know Elon Musk. I can't like at all.

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Speaker 1: It's all speculation, but I do think there's something about it,

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Speaker 1: like I can't imagine having a trans child and going

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Speaker 1: out of my way and spending a lot of money

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Speaker 1: to protect and like transphobic rhetoric. I I cannot imagine it.

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Speaker 1: It's difficult for me to put myself in that position.

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Speaker 1: I guess I'll say. I also think that it really

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Speaker 1: reflects the ways that particularly trans people have unfortunately kind

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Speaker 1: of become this like like just the existence of trans

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Speaker 1: people trying to live their lives has become this like

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Speaker 1: blash point. On the one hand, it is surprising to

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Speaker 1: me that he would double down on this, having a

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Speaker 1: trans child. On the other hand, I do see the

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Speaker 1: ways that just like the existence of trans people trying

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Speaker 1: to live their lives has become this incredibly like politicized

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Speaker 1: hot button issue. It certainly should not be. But on

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Speaker 1: the other hand, it's not terribly surprising to me that

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Speaker 1: his bid at Twitter starts with that transphobibia, that that's

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Speaker 1: where it that that's where it begins, right. It makes

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Speaker 1: me want to have him fail, but it's just me.

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Speaker 1: But you know, with that, it's kind of odd that

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Speaker 1: he also continues to talk about free speech. I think

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Speaker 1: it's really really almost ironic. He talks about free speech,

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Speaker 1: and several the people that I've seen band are the

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Speaker 1: people that said something about him, not necessarily the needing, uh,

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Speaker 1: completely offhand. It was just like, hey, he did this

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Speaker 1: and this is a bad thing, and he's like banned

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Speaker 1: them exactly. Okay, So let's get into this because Elon Musk,

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Speaker 1: he has called himself a free speech absolutist. He says

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Speaker 1: that a ted talk like free speech is the ability

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Speaker 1: for someone you don't like to say something you don't like, right,

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Speaker 1: And so you might be thinking, oh, well, he would

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Speaker 1: probably be working to foster a climate of open discourse

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Speaker 1: and discussion at Twitter now that he's in charge. But

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Speaker 1: you might you would You will be wrong if you

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Speaker 1: thought that, right, because that's not what the not what

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Speaker 1: the vibe has been so far. And so first of all,

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Speaker 1: I have to say, like, obviously, when we talk about

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Speaker 1: free speech, really what we're talking about is whether governments

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Speaker 1: can punish people or prevent people, um from saying what

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Speaker 1: they want to say, right, And so the conversation around

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Speaker 1: free speech has gotten so modeled about like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: this is censorship. It's like, oh, well not really, but

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Speaker 1: and there are absolutely free speech issues happening in the

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Speaker 1: United States right now, like when you look at like

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Speaker 1: anti CRT bills or like don't say gay legislation, Like

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Speaker 1: we are in a climate where free expression is under attack,

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Speaker 1: specifically from government. So like that needs to be clear, um.

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Speaker 1: But for the sake of conversation, let's talk about free

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Speaker 1: speech as sort of generally fostering a climate of open

429
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,399
Speaker 1: discourse and debate. If we use that definition of a

430
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,920
Speaker 1: free speech you might be thinking, like, has Elon Musk

431
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,920
Speaker 1: worked to create that kind of environment since taking over? Also, no,

432
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,679
Speaker 1: he has not done that. Uh, First he got started

433
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: by overseeing a mass exodus of staff at Twitter. On

434
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 1: some employees resigned, which I totally get, Like I would

435
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,200
Speaker 1: have I would have been out the door. Honestly, there's

436
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:41,679
Speaker 1: not a lot of jobs, and if I was offered

437
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 1: three months pay to not do it, that I would

438
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 1: keep doing it. It's not, it's not I can't. I've

439
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:46,920
Speaker 1: got a lot of jobs where that would be the

440
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 1: case for me. So I would totally have been on

441
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 1: the resignation train. So I totally get that. And some

442
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,160
Speaker 1: workers were fired, and specifically they were fired for things

443
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:59,000
Speaker 1: that they said about Elon Musk. Engineer Eric Frohnhopper was

444
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 1: fired very publicly for going to gets Musk and it

445
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,679
Speaker 1: happened to write on Twitter. Eric worked on Twitter's apps

446
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:09,159
Speaker 1: for Android, and after Musk tweeted that Twitter for Android

447
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 1: had better really slow, the engineer retweeted Musk saying that

448
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 1: Musk his his under his technical understanding of Twitter's app

449
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 1: was wrong, which I can kind of buy because Elon

450
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 1: Musk gets famously not an engineer, so perhaps might not

451
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 1: totally know what he's talking about when talking to an

452
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: actual engineer who works on the thing that he is criticizing,

453
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 1: and so Musk replied and asked his engineer to elaborate

454
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 1: before writing, Twitter is super slow on Android? What if

455
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 1: you've done to fix that? They kind of go back

456
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 1: and forth, and then somebody else comes in and it's like, hey, engineer,

457
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 1: why don't you raise these issues privately with your boss?

458
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 1: And the engineer replies, maybe he should ask questions privately,

459
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 1: maybe you slack or email elon then weighs in and says, oh,

460
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 1: that engineer has been fired. So I find that it's

461
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,640
Speaker 1: very interesting because a lot of people said, like, oh,

462
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 1: if you publicly disagree with your boss, you know you

463
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 1: can like pretty much anywhere, you'll probably be fired. And

464
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 1: I guess that's a fair point, Like I like in

465
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,120
Speaker 1: most workplaces you can't like get on Twitter and call

466
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: out your boss. Totally get that, But I think the

467
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 1: larger point is, like it seems directly at odds with

468
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 1: somebody who has called himself a free speech absolutist. And

469
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: I also think that that engineer has a really good point,

470
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,439
Speaker 1: like why is it that Ellen as a as the boss,

471
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,239
Speaker 1: is allowed to publicly misrepresent his work on Twitter, and

472
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 1: that the staffer he is the one who has to

473
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 1: stay quiet and only set the record straight, like in private,

474
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: like if Elon Musk, like Elon Musk, made it public

475
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 1: by tweeting about it. Why is it that when his

476
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 1: boss publicly I think, craps on his work, he is

477
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: not able to publicly reply. I kind of totally get

478
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 1: why he did this, even if for most people they

479
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 1: might think like, oh, that's clearly a firable offense. Yes, yes, agreed.

480
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,360
Speaker 1: And also there's been a lot of stories that, like

481
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: even privately, and that might not have protected him exactly.

482
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 1: So even if this engineer had brought it up privately

483
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: via Slack or email, he probably, I think probably still

484
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: would have been fired. Because it's not just staff who

485
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: have publicly gone against Musk who have been terminated. ABC

486
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 1: reported that dozens of other staffers said that they were

487
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: fired for raising criticisms on internal Slack messages or email.

488
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: And that kind of tracks with the kind of climate

489
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,160
Speaker 1: that Musk has run at his other companies. I don't

490
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: know how he's been able to dub himself as a

491
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: free speech warrior because that the record of his of

492
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: the climate at his other organizations just does not reflect that.

493
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 1: Like at SpaceX, for instance, former staff filed an unfair

494
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: labor practice charge with the National Labor Relations Board saying

495
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 1: that they were retaliated against for writing and organizing a

496
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 1: letter that was critical of the company when Musk have

497
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: been accused of sexual harassment, and so they wrote this

498
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: letter saying Elon Musk's behavior, the sexual harassment, his like

499
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 1: crass jokes on Twitter is making us look bad and

500
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 1: it needs to stop. And they they say, and they

501
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: went to the n l RB saying this that they

502
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,199
Speaker 1: were unfairly retaliated against for that. And so I don't know.

503
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: I have a hard time believing that Elon Musk is

504
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: this like champion for free speech when that those are

505
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 1: the kinds of climates that he has fostered at his organizations.

506
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: There's so much to all of that, including the fact

507
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,360
Speaker 1: when we often hear people complaining about free speech, especially

508
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 1: today as you were talking about like the anti CRT

509
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: stuff as well as so many other things, don't say

510
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 1: gay bills, um that it seems very much coming from

511
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 1: the conservative side because they feel like since they think

512
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: they don't have the same privilege as they did two

513
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 1: years ago, they're now being imposed on and therefore no

514
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: longer having free speech. And we also know that that

515
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 1: in Tesla there was a lawsuit where many black employees

516
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: talked about the racism within that company. We've been concluding him,

517
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 1: including being called inward and all of that, and I'm

518
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: thinking that's what he's talking about when there's limiting free speech,

519
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 1: like Okay, white people, you are now allowed to say

520
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: that here because that's free speech, and not really not

521
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: not like crediting the type that that's you know, like

522
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,360
Speaker 1: it's racist. That's not an issue of free speech. That's

523
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: about racism. But that's what I'm seeing as a pattern

524
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 1: as well as a fact as that the people who

525
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 1: have been defending Musk, like the dude was like, hey, dude,

526
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 1: don't be saying this to your boss are absolutely to

527
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: the level of like how close in ratio are we

528
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: to the in cell link here? You I have so

529
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 1: much to say about this. So one, I hadn't really

530
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: thought about this before, but you really put you really

531
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: laid this out nicely. I do think that the way

532
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: that people talk about contact moderation on a platform like

533
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: Twitter does kind of connect to conversations about like, oh,

534
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: because I can't say what I used to be able

535
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: to say it twenty years ago without repercussions. Therefore, I

536
00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 1: am being censored. Therefore, the only way to protect free

537
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: speech is to allow specifically like racist or transphobic content

538
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: on these platforms. Like I, I hadn't really thought about

539
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: it in that direct of a line, but I think

540
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 1: that you're absolutely onto something. That the reason why so

541
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: many people when they talk about like free speech, free speech,

542
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 1: they're not talking about the free speech rights of like

543
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: you know, Palestinian activists, or you know, sex workers or

544
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: any of the other marginalized people who we know actually

545
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: are the recipients of crackdowns on their speech. They're talking

546
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 1: about the right to say the in word. And to

547
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: your point about Tesla, I would implore folks to read

548
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 1: up on this because some of the allegations are it's

549
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: not it's not just like, oh, this person made off

550
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 1: colored jokes. That allegations, some of which are against Musk

551
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: himself and the kind of climate that he ran our

552
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: sickening right. Like One of them that sticks in my

553
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: mind is that at the Tesla factory. One of the

554
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: last alleges that when Elon Musk would come to a

555
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: tour of the of the factories, that staffers knew that

556
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: Elon Musk had a problem with seeing black staffers on

557
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,239
Speaker 1: the floor, and so when when on days when he

558
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 1: was coming, they would have the black staffers like essentially

559
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: hide because that they knew that, like, it would be

560
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: a better walk through for Musk if Musk did not

561
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: see black and brown faces on his floor. So like

562
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: it's not just like, oh, someone made a joke I

563
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: didn't like that would be bad enough. It's some some

564
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: of the allegations are really deep and really I think

565
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: reflect a real just a deeply culture. And it's interesting

566
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: because I read this. I can't verify if this is

567
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: an accurate thing or not, but I read this some

568
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: um thing where someone was like, oh, I used to

569
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 1: work at at SpaceX, and everybody knew that part of

570
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: the deal when you work for Elon Musk was so

571
00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 1: much management went into managing Elon Musk specifically, and so

572
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: they would they would have all these like different window

573
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: dressing so that when Elon Musk was was there, he

574
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: could feel certain kinds of ways, and so they would

575
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: have like he talked about how they would have a

576
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: computer run code in a way that looks like the matrix,

577
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: so that Elon Musk, who is famously not an engineer

578
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: would think that really cool, super special tech stuff was

579
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: happening even though it was just first right. And so

580
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 1: I think some of that, some of the allegations coming

581
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 1: out of other Elon Musk run companies are so deeply troubling.

582
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: And I think that these are companies that were that

583
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: were that have an infrastructure to manage these these particular

584
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: ways that Musk has Twitter, it's not a company that

585
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:41,479
Speaker 1: has that, And so what's it's interesting to think, like,

586
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 1: what will the vibe at Twitter be like when so

587
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: much of the staff has been gutted and it's not

588
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 1: a company that has been built to manage Elon Musk's quirks. Yeah,

589
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: that's I've heard that too, And that's so sad that

590
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: that's like people's mental energy is we gotta keep the

591
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: this guy calm and here's the word'll do it. I

592
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: think um as as we're discussing, he and a lot

593
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: of people on the right, very conservative people, would have

594
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: you believe that, uh, this sort of hard right free

595
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: speech in quotes, like they're being policed more, that they're

596
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: getting more, they're being more censored. Uh, they are very

597
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: much the victims in this conversation but that isn't the case,

598
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: is it. It is not the case. And this is

599
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: something that I think really points to the kind of

600
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 1: ship that Musk is going to be running at Twitter,

601
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 1: is that he gets on Twitter and repeats this thoroughly

602
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: debunked claim that Twitter has been quote censoring the right

603
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: more than the left. And there is an entire body

604
00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 1: of research debunking this. Like I could do a whole

605
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: episode digging into some of the studies that have come

606
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:03,959
Speaker 1: out about this. It's it's fascinating to me. But all

607
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: this run through a couple so researchers from m I. T.

608
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: Yale and the University of Exeter published a study that

609
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: found that while right leading accounts are banned more frequently,

610
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: it is not because of anti right wing bias, but rather,

611
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 1: as the researchers put it, they found that users misinformation

612
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: sharing was as predictive of suspension as was their political orientation. Thus,

613
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 1: the observation that Republicans were more likely to be suspended

614
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: the Democrats provides no support for the claim that Twitter

615
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: showed political bias in its suspension practices. Instead, the observed

616
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 1: asymmetry could be explained entirely by the tendency of Republicans

617
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: to share more misinformation. And so basically this idea that

618
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 1: like when they were looking at misinformation and who was

619
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: banned more for for spreading it, Republicans or right leading

620
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 1: accounts were banned more, but because those were the accounts

621
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 1: that were more likely to be spreading misinformation in the

622
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: first place. UM. And this is actually backed up by

623
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: Twitter's own in house research team. In the pre musk

624
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: days after Trump was banned on Twitter. UM, the Twitter

625
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: internal team was facing a lot of criticism that they

626
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: were censoring the right, so they put together a team

627
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: to look into it, and the internal research team at

628
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 1: Twitter found that folks on the right are actually amplified

629
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: on Twitter more often globally. From the report, our results

630
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 1: reveal a remarkably consistent trend. In six out of the

631
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 1: seven country studied, the mainstream political right enjoys higher algorithmic

632
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: amplification than the mainstream political left. Um. You can read

633
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 1: this report on their website. It's twenty seven pages long. UM.

634
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 1: And So this idea that people on the right have

635
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: been censored by Twitter or or are you know, getting

636
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: a raw deal, it just is just not born out

637
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: by the facts or the or the you know, the

638
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 1: research has been done. And I also think that it

639
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 1: really speaks to this like wid er misconception about social

640
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 1: media more generally, that there is no real body of

641
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,320
Speaker 1: academic study or academic thought with regards to social media,

642
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: and that everything that we know about it is either

643
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 1: anecdotal or like unknowable, so people can just say whatever

644
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: and be like, oh, yeah, you know how people on

645
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: the right are censored on social media platforms and not

646
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 1: really have it challenge, And so I think that it

647
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 1: really speaks to this. I don't know. I think it's

648
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: an holdover from a time when people just saw social

649
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 1: media as the Internet and not the real world, and

650
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 1: thus it was not really worthy of serious examination. But

651
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: there's entire schools of research and bodies of evidence about

652
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: social media platforms, and all of them say the same thing,

653
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 1: that people on the right are not being censored or

654
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: cracked down on or anything like that, and that if

655
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 1: anybody tells you that they are, maybe that's there and

656
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: maybe they feel that way, maybe that's the anecdotal evidence,

657
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 1: but they're not. And also, like even beyond Twitter, people

658
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 1: say the same thing about Facebook, when in reality, you know,

659
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg was personally intervening to keep people like Alex

660
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,720
Speaker 1: Jones on the platform and personally meeting with right wing leaders,

661
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: and so it's not going both ways, and so yeah,

662
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 1: I think it must. Repeating this claim really shows how

663
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 1: easy it is to like stoke this victim complex, like like, I,

664
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 1: of course I am the one being victimized here. What

665
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,240
Speaker 1: else could be happening. I'm not excited about what's coming

666
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 1: up because there's conversations about how Facebook is prepping for

667
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: the next election, presidential election, and they are way too

668
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 1: excited for the return of Donald Trump, and I hate things.

669
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 1: But you know, I find it interesting too because even

670
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: with the COVID misinformation, it took forever for them to

671
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 1: even recognize the misinformation and even talked about, Okay, how

672
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: are we going to do that without banning everybody because

673
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: they didn't want to, and so first they put the

674
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 1: little warning things to all of it, And you're like,

675
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: it took a lot for a person to be banned.

676
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: It took a lot to even have any of that

677
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,399
Speaker 1: warning to be put on there, because we went through

678
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: a full year. I feel like so much misinformation, so

679
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 1: many bad advices about how you can treat yourself to

680
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 1: get rid of COVID. It was, I feel like an

681
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 1: ongoing battle and it's still kind of is. And it's

682
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 1: kind of ironic that they were like they actilutely hate

683
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 1: us when they were so much fight to be put

684
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: up from the people, especially scientists, be like, can you

685
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: please control this because this is really bad for the

686
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: health of our nation totally. And what's so interesting about

687
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: that is that something that people say a lot, like well,

688
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 1: meeting people will say a lot. It's like you in

689
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 1: the early days of COVID, we didn't know about masks.

690
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 1: Like it was like we were getting a lot of

691
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,280
Speaker 1: like for a while it was like, oh, only medical

692
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 1: professional need them, or only this into like and then

693
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: eventually it was like, oh, it's masks. We on the masks.

694
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 1: People will I think kind of understandably conflate medical professionals

695
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 1: getting more familiar with how the virus worked and all

696
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,240
Speaker 1: of that, which is confusing, right, Like it's like having

697
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 1: one day having someone be like, oh, you don't need

698
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 1: to wear a mask, and the next day it hasn't

699
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 1: gonna be like, oh, wear a mask. Like I can

700
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: understand why people are confused and why that looks like,

701
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 1: you know, like, oh, so, why is that? Why is

702
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: that not misinformation? You know? And it's like there's a

703
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 1: difference between medical professional, you know, getting more up to

704
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 1: date on a novel virus and people who are spreading

705
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 1: clearly provably false information. And I think that unfortunately, with COVID,

706
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 1: because it was like a new virus, it created a

707
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 1: climate that really made it easy to conflate those things,

708
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 1: and so I think it made it easy to not

709
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:25,280
Speaker 1: challenge provable, demonstrable lies about COVID and lies about COVID

710
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:29,800
Speaker 1: that we're intentional, so like disinformation spread by malicious intent

711
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,439
Speaker 1: by bad actors. I think that the climate of having

712
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: a novel virus where people were still getting up to

713
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 1: date on what was going on with it, made it

714
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: easy to not crack down on it. And I think

715
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: it's just like a reality of the way that inaccurate

716
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 1: information on social media works is that there's always gonna

717
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: be that grain of truth. It's like, oh, well, why

718
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 1: is this not misinformation? And I can understand why people

719
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: raise that, but I think it like, did us a

720
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 1: real disservice to cracking down on things that we know

721
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 1: are just provably incorrect statements? That that makes sense I

722
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 1: feel like I'm kind of rambling, but hopefully all know

723
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 1: what I mean. I mean that virus we didn't know,

724
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: no one knew, no one knew where it came from,

725
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 1: what to do, how to handle it. And I got

726
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: like that definitely was We definitely were told don't wear masks. Please,

727
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 1: don't buy these masks. We're running out. That's a whole

728
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: different conversations. But to like everybody wearing a mask please,

729
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 1: for the love of all things, and then having to

730
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 1: be like, hey, they learn new things because they're researching

731
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:32,399
Speaker 1: new things, and then also like political stuff, but like, yeah,

732
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: that makes perfect sense that things would change, And of

733
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: course the naysayers would be like do you remember this,

734
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 1: they're lying because they didn't say this the first time around.

735
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: It was like this is what means to learn into

736
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,799
Speaker 1: research and to grow. But there was a whole lot

737
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: of stuff. Yeah, And I think that's one of the

738
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,720
Speaker 1: things that I makes me really sad about what's happening

739
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 1: to Twitter, as we were talking about at the beginning,

740
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: because um, there was a tweet that went viral a

741
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago from a reporter that was like,

742
00:39:57,800 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 1: you know, world War three could be breaking out and

743
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 1: here I am not sure what is reality on Twitter

744
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 1: anymore because it is such a big, a big source

745
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: for news and that whole thing with COVID it did

746
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 1: get really messy, and it was an example of an

747
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 1: interesting and kind of like terrifying example I guess of like,

748
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: how do you how does this platform manage this information

749
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: perhaps misinformation and our disinformation? Um when you know the

750
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 1: scientists are researching and it is changing, And I think, um,

751
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: because it gets so a lot of it gets convoluted,

752
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 1: and there's so many like bad faith conversations that can

753
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 1: happen on platforms like that. UM that it is. It's

754
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: just like one of the it's an interesting case study

755
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 1: to see how Twitter kind of did deal with that

756
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 1: how long it took. And I think that's another thing

757
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: that's really upsetting about this is, as you alluded to, Samantha,

758
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 1: it felt like we were making progress and it was

759
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 1: so hard fought and now we're seeing like a a

760
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 1: reversal of all of these things that were It felt like, oh,

761
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 1: this is a step forward. It's going to be a

762
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 1: platform where a lot of this misinformation, it won't be

763
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,280
Speaker 1: as prevalent as will still be there, but not as prevalent,

764
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: but as getting reversed. It's upsetting. I mean, I not

765
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,360
Speaker 1: to get too personal, but like in my day job,

766
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: I do a lot of work trying to make platforms safer.

767
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: And you know, I've met with the team at Twitter

768
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 1: many times. I don't know who's still there, but like

769
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:36,359
Speaker 1: two advise them to be like, oh, here, like here

770
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 1: are steps that you can take to make the platform

771
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 1: more hospitable for marginalized people, women, people of color, whatever.

772
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 1: And so it does feel like a lot of the

773
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: work that I have to personally, like personally done in

774
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,439
Speaker 1: the last few years, it's now being all race. So

775
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 1: like it's a little it's a little bit like, oh, well,

776
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 1: glad I spent the last three years on this. But

777
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 1: Musk reinstated a bunch of previously suspended or band accounts

778
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 1: that have been picked off the platform for things like

779
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 1: spreading COVID misinformation or harassment, and he signaled that he's

780
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 1: planning on doing more of that in the following week.

781
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 1: So some of the folks who have been welcomed back

782
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: to the platform include the Babylon b who we were

783
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 1: talking about earlier, Jordan Peterson, who was banned after repeatedly

784
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: dead naming the actor Elliott Page. Um and miss gendering

785
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: Elliott Page. Kanye West, whose account was locked after numerous

786
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 1: anti semitic comments. Uh, Andrew Tate, who is If you

787
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 1: don't know who he is, He's like a like an

788
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 1: I don't even know what you would call him, like

789
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 1: a men's rights kind of misogynistic influencer slash coach. Um.

790
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 1: He Andrew Tate was banned from pretty much all platforms

791
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 1: for saying things like women need to be held accountable

792
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 1: if they are raped. Um. Marjorie Taylor Green's personal account,

793
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 1: not her official account, was banned for spreading COVID misinformation,

794
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 1: and of course Donald Trump. You may recall that Donald

795
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: Trump was banned after using Twitter to foment insurrection, which

796
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,320
Speaker 1: is sus a weird thing to say. Since having his

797
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 1: account reinst aided, Trump has actually not tweeted, and he

798
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 1: is signaled that he is perhaps not going to be

799
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 1: returning to Twitter, even though he can yes his his

800
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:09,919
Speaker 1: account back um, saying instead that he's going to stay

801
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 1: on his own social media platform that he owns, called

802
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 1: Truth Social. I've heard that there might be some kind

803
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 1: of like contractual obligation there that Trump might be contractually

804
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:24,760
Speaker 1: obligated to only tweet on truth social but I actually

805
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: don't know the incidents. That's why I can't really speak

806
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 1: to it personally. But um so, all these people who

807
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:34,439
Speaker 1: are who had to leave the platform for things, like

808
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,320
Speaker 1: I would say, there are like fairly serious offensive Listen,

809
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 1: nobody is permanently suspended from Twitter for a one time

810
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 1: offense unless it is something egregious, right, And so I

811
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 1: can I can speak from personal experience. Margerie Taylor Green

812
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 1: had numerous warnings and this was like a consistent thing

813
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 1: with her. Right. Kanye West is the same. It doesn't

814
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,280
Speaker 1: just come out of the blue unless you're doing something

815
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 1: really egregious. So these are the people that Elon Musk

816
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 1: is going to be welcoming back. And he says that

817
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 1: he's declaring amnesty next week for band accounts. Um But

818
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 1: at the same time he is also cracking down on

819
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,320
Speaker 1: accounts that are you know, associated with like lefty politics

820
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 1: as well. So for instance, Chad Loader, the founder of

821
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 1: the cybersecurity especially company called Habituate, his account was banned

822
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: from the site after he used Twitter on November twenty

823
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 1: three to warn users about an alleged data breach on Twitter.

824
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 1: Um loader is known for like researching and reporting on

825
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 1: right wing extremism, including unmasking a Proud Boy member who

826
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 1: attacked a police officer during the instruction UM and that

827
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 1: report was actually cited by the Department of Justice. So

828
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 1: like a fairly you know, known person who writes about

829
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,800
Speaker 1: things like cybersecurity and how to be safe on Twitter

830
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 1: and right wing extremism was one of the first accounts

831
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: banned while Musk was talking about this amnesty and you know,

832
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 1: having Twitter be this place for free speech um. Interestingly enough,

833
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 1: when Sam harry Us asked Elon Musk about bringing back

834
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: Alex Jones, who you might remember made up egregious lies

835
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: about babies who died in Sandy Hook and the parents

836
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:09,800
Speaker 1: who grieved them, you know, said that they were paid

837
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 1: actors and all of that. Elon Musk tweeted, my firstborn

838
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 1: child died in my arms. I felt his last heartbeat.

839
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 1: I have no mercy for anyone who would use the

840
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 1: deaths of children for gain politics or fame. And I

841
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: actually think that that was one of the more transparent,

842
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,479
Speaker 1: honest statements from Musk about how he sees his role

843
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 1: in moderation right like he can personally identify with the

844
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,879
Speaker 1: pain of losing a child, because Elon Musk unfortunately has

845
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: lost the child, and so it allows him to have

846
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 1: a sense of how painful it would be to be

847
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 1: a grieving parent grieving that loss and then also be

848
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 1: harassed and called a liar on top of it, and

849
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 1: so he's gonna make those moderation decisions based on that

850
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 1: lived experience. It's interesting because I think it totally puts

851
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,919
Speaker 1: to rest that Elon Musk is like a free speech absolutist,

852
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: because it reveals what's pretty obvious that these decisions are

853
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,399
Speaker 1: made up by him based on like what he does

854
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,359
Speaker 1: or doesn't like, which is fine. But I also think that, like,

855
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: because he can personally identify with losing a child, he

856
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,319
Speaker 1: is going to moderate from that lived personal experience. But

857
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 1: what about experiences that Elon Musk has not personally had, Right, So,

858
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 1: like the experience of somebody like Elliott Page or somebody

859
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: like Dr Rachel Levine who was just a trans person

860
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 1: trying to live their life, or the experience of being

861
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 1: like a woman of color on a platform like Twitter,

862
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 1: who we know are more harassed than than our counterparts, right,

863
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:34,400
Speaker 1: Or what about being a person with disabilities who relies

864
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:38,280
Speaker 1: on the platform to build community, right Like, because Elon

865
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: Musk has no personal, lived experience with those marginalized identities,

866
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 1: it seems like he really can't see those perspectives as

867
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 1: as real as his own perspective. And it really it

868
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 1: reminds me so much of this, like classic George Carlin

869
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 1: jokes that I've gotten so much mileage out of in

870
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: my life. Have you ever noticed that other people's stuff

871
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 1: is in your is stuff? Right Like? He can only

872
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:04,760
Speaker 1: see like his lived experience as real and everybody else's

873
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 1: it's just theoretical or trivial or doesn't really matter. And

874
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 1: I don't think that platforms like Twitter should be moderated

875
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 1: based on a white billionaire what what is within the

876
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:21,759
Speaker 1: scope of his personal lived experience, because there's so many

877
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 1: lived experiences out there that he has no idea of.

878
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 1: I mean, not everybody gets to experience having people on

879
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: your staff to make you feel comfortable, including like avoiding

880
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,840
Speaker 1: the color orange. I guess, um, that's a whole different

881
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 1: level of experience. And you know, not to delegate the

882
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: fact that he did lose a child and that was heartful,

883
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:44,320
Speaker 1: like his wife ex wife came back and was like, dude,

884
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: you didn't hold that child. I held that child through

885
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:51,840
Speaker 1: this entire process, and now who's using the death of

886
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 1: a child for publicity. That's interesting. I mean, I'm glad

887
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 1: he's acknowledging that's a bad thing, so I guess I

888
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 1: have a point for that. But it's quite interesting that

889
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 1: even that he couldn't be truly honest about and he

890
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: couldn't actually see beyond his own like, I'm gonna make

891
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 1: myself look really big by doing this, when in actuality, again,

892
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 1: his motive in buying this is hurtful for one child,

893
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 1: and then to lie about that specific thing against the wife,

894
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 1: who apparently had a lot of issues with Elon Musk

895
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:25,319
Speaker 1: in general, and to literally dismiss her experience as it's

896
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 1: there's so many things to this man that I'm just like,

897
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 1: what is wrong with you other than you are a

898
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 1: narcissistic sociopath. And I don't know what else to say

899
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 1: except for, oh my god, you're ruining this totally. So

900
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 1: if anybody out there, like, if you want to read

901
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 1: a heartbreaking account of a divorce where you're like that

902
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 1: man is awful, look into the look into Elon Musk's divorce.

903
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 1: I read it. It's like haunts me. The things that

904
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 1: were alleged that happened in that divorce haunts me. Um,

905
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 1: so yes, yes to all of that, and think like

906
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: the kind of person who like requires their staffers to

907
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 1: do so much labor and energy to have the workplace

908
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 1: be to their liking in this in these like really

909
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: particular ways, is the kind of person who sees themselves

910
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 1: as the main character of life and doesn't even really

911
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 1: question that, Like, I think that's really what's going on here.

912
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 1: I think that people like Elon Musk, you know, I

913
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 1: don't know him. This is my opinion. I think it's

914
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 1: hard for them to see other people's perspectives as real.

915
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 1: And so the kind of person who requires staffers to

916
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 1: go around making computers look super cool and science e

917
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 1: so that he you know, gets warm fuzzies and and

918
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:44,320
Speaker 1: doesn't even see that that is what's is what's happening.

919
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 1: Isn't even able to see that labor. So he just

920
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 1: thinks like, Wow, my company is so great, and he

921
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 1: doesn't see the like twenties frustrated staffers like I've been

922
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:53,879
Speaker 1: the staffer who has to go out of my way

923
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 1: and do a lot of emotional labor to accommodate a

924
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:58,479
Speaker 1: person in power who will never even see that labor,

925
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 1: doesn't even know that labor has happened. And it's really hard,

926
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 1: and it speaks to this perspective of really not being

927
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:08,239
Speaker 1: able to see other people. Everybody else is just a

928
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:12,440
Speaker 1: side character to your main character. I guess that's how

929
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:28,880
Speaker 1: I'll play it. Yeah, you always do such an excellent

930
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 1: job of pointing this out, Bridget, But people forget sometimes that,

931
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 1: you know, technology is not without bias because somebody programmed it,

932
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:41,880
Speaker 1: somebody's moderating it. So I think with Elon Musk, without

933
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 1: this team of people, with all of these changes, um,

934
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 1: and he's kind of like declaration that, oh well, I'm

935
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 1: gonna make it somehow less biased. Like that's just false.

936
00:50:54,200 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 1: That's just such such a lie. And um, I know

937
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 1: we've been talking about this throughout, but what for you know,

938
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 1: everybody who's listening, it's like, oh, well, you know I

939
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 1: don't really use Twitter. I always kind of didn't like

940
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 1: it or whatever. What do we stand to lose? Why

941
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 1: does this matter? Yeah? I'm so glad that you asked

942
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:15,919
Speaker 1: because you might be thinking, Okay, I get it, but

943
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:18,399
Speaker 1: why do I care. I don't work at Twitter. I'll

944
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 1: never work at Twitter, right and use it? Why do

945
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,239
Speaker 1: I care? Well? First, is the most basic, you know,

946
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 1: just Twitter as a place to get quick information. Um,

947
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:28,760
Speaker 1: like we're talking about earlier. You know, it is functioned

948
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 1: as this in this way for a long time. You know,

949
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 1: when Joe Biden needed to announce the specifics of like

950
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:36,880
Speaker 1: student loan debt relief, he didn't go to Reddit or

951
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 1: Tumbler or Instagram. Twitter is how you get information out quickly.

952
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: And so like when there's an emergency, Twitter is how

953
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:45,800
Speaker 1: you get information out about it. Like I have a

954
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 1: friend who works for the State Department. It's Twitter that

955
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 1: is being used right now to get important information out

956
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:55,759
Speaker 1: to Americans who are traveling to the World Cup, for instance, right,

957
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 1: And so if the platform is going to be full

958
00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 1: of thoughts and hate speech and accounts and persanding other

959
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 1: people and bad actors, that whole thing breaks down. Like,

960
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:06,279
Speaker 1: think about it, if there was an emergency in your

961
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 1: neighborhood right now and you wanted up to date, real

962
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 1: time information about it, we don't really have a place

963
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 1: to really get that other than Twitter. And like, I

964
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:16,240
Speaker 1: think it really goes to show that we need better

965
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:20,279
Speaker 1: public interest communications platforms. But like, if you like, when

966
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:23,480
Speaker 1: there's been emergencies in my neighborhood, I'm looking at Twitter

967
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 1: to see who is talking about and what is developing,

968
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:28,239
Speaker 1: you know, quickly, And so that's just the most like

969
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 1: basic reason why folks should care. But it's also more

970
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,840
Speaker 1: than that. You know, Earlier I was talking about the

971
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,359
Speaker 1: massive influence that Twitter has and sort of how it's

972
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 1: been used to drive progress. I could give get so

973
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 1: many examples of the way that Twitter has been used

974
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 1: to push conversations forward to get us someplace better. You know,

975
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 1: if not for Twitter, we wouldn't have movements like me too,

976
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 1: you know, which was not just something happening on Twitter.

977
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 1: It shifted our entire culture and our entire you know,

978
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 1: the progress of our culture. I would say, for instance,

979
00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 1: you'll have probably heard of shan Quilla Robinson, who was

980
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 1: a t a five year old black clubman from North

981
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 1: Carolina who traveled to Mexico on vacation with a group

982
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 1: of people and ended up dead. The people that she

983
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,320
Speaker 1: traveled with tried to say that it was alcohol poisoning,

984
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 1: but later a video emerged of one of them getting

985
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 1: into a pretty brutal physical altercation with her. Now there's

986
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:20,880
Speaker 1: actual movement in the case, and her mother says that

987
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:23,640
Speaker 1: it's because of Black Twitter. She says that if not

988
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 1: for black folks tweeting about it, raising the alarm about it,

989
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 1: generating awareness about it, she said, she said that she

990
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: was having a really hard time getting any kind of

991
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,840
Speaker 1: national attention on the story of her daughter's death, and

992
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:36,040
Speaker 1: so she actually says it was Twitter that did that.

993
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 1: And so in that case, this rapper Amina Caine shared

994
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 1: Shanquilla's photo on Twitter on November night. Her message went viral,

995
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 1: got almost twenty retweets, and then later spread to other

996
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 1: social media platforms and got so much more attention to

997
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:52,880
Speaker 1: her death. And um Sherry Williams, who was a professor

998
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,799
Speaker 1: of race media and Communication at American University, she put

999
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,319
Speaker 1: it really well in this interview with NBC new She says,

1000
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:01,720
Speaker 1: Black folks know that mainstream news media has a history

1001
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: of completely ignoring our stories. So we've been using these

1002
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 1: tools to amplify our stories ourselves, and it works. We

1003
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 1: see the cycle of mainstream news media basically following the

1004
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 1: chatter on black social media like Twitter, and so it

1005
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 1: really goes to show the real world impact that platforms

1006
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:21,160
Speaker 1: like Twitter can have. Twitter was not perfect, It is

1007
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:23,319
Speaker 1: not perfect. I have had my issues with it. But

1008
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 1: we lose so much if we don't have platforms like Twitter.

1009
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:31,800
Speaker 1: Marginalized communities lose so much and our ability to push

1010
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 1: that culture forward and have those conversations that get us

1011
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:38,080
Speaker 1: someplace better. We there is so much at stake if

1012
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 1: we do not have social media and digital communications platforms

1013
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:46,720
Speaker 1: where those kind of conversations can happen. Yes, yes, yes, um,

1014
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 1: I totally agree. And I think that that's one thing

1015
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 1: that kind of gives me anxiety is when I when

1016
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 1: I hear people like, well I didn't like Twitter, and like,

1017
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 1: but that can be a very privileged thing to just

1018
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:57,879
Speaker 1: be like, oh, it goes away, because there are people

1019
00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 1: in other countries that use it to organize and to communicated,

1020
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 1: Like it's a very powerful tool, especially if you're kind

1021
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 1: of isolated and maybe you don't have a lot of

1022
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:09,879
Speaker 1: people in your community or like where you grew up

1023
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:13,800
Speaker 1: to talk to you, to share ideas with, Like, it's important,

1024
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 1: it's really really important. Um So I think I'm glad.

1025
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,520
Speaker 1: I'm glad you you bought this today. I'm glad that

1026
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:24,879
Speaker 1: you brought these points because I just feel like there

1027
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:26,839
Speaker 1: is so much at stake, and a lot of it's

1028
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:31,840
Speaker 1: getting kind of lost in the chaos of like what's

1029
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:35,720
Speaker 1: happening with Twitter and why it matters is getting lost

1030
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:38,640
Speaker 1: in all of this chaos. So thank you as always

1031
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 1: bridget Oh of course, and if folks listening, like if

1032
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:46,920
Speaker 1: you have questions about Twitter alternatives, like let's chat like

1033
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 1: us where can we? So let's aggressive great question I have.

1034
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 1: I guess I I the platforms that I see people

1035
00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 1: going to our Hive and last it on, I'm still

1036
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:04,120
Speaker 1: trying to figure them all out. They all have their issues.

1037
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 1: But yeah, people have been talking about moving to Hive,

1038
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:11,560
Speaker 1: massdon Post. All of these different platforms all have their issues,

1039
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 1: Like there's been big conversations about the funding structure and

1040
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 1: the moderation structure. So I will be trying them all

1041
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:21,799
Speaker 1: out myself, and I'm happy to report back and let

1042
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 1: y'all know, like what worked, what didn't work, what's a flop?

1043
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 1: What's a bob? Ya know? T that's amazing? Yes, please

1044
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,440
Speaker 1: please let us not because like mass didon, seems super

1045
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:34,799
Speaker 1: confusing and very specific. Hive may not be ready for

1046
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:38,400
Speaker 1: the mass movement, is what I'm reading. Um, but and

1047
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 1: then also that no discord is a thing, which I've

1048
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:43,799
Speaker 1: been told that we should have one, So Bridget, let's

1049
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:47,920
Speaker 1: have any Let's have a discord for us Smith Bridget

1050
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:50,399
Speaker 1: and then having like questionnaires with the people and then

1051
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:54,239
Speaker 1: deciding where to go. Maybe I love this. Yes, so

1052
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:56,880
Speaker 1: I actually even before Twitter was about my musk, I've

1053
00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:00,719
Speaker 1: always loved discord. Uh, it's super fun. Um, yeah, let's

1054
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:03,200
Speaker 1: have a discord channel. We can like pass all this out.

1055
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:11,839
Speaker 1: Let's oh my gosh, yes, let's let's make it a thing.

1056
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 1: Get online. I'm gonna I'm gonna do it. We are

1057
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 1: the coolest obviously. This reminds me of the Britney Spears

1058
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:29,560
Speaker 1: interview where she's like, everyone's talking about the emails. Yeah,

1059
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:36,640
Speaker 1: like Britney Spears, that's me. Yes, yes, um well, Bridget

1060
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 1: the actual coolest. Where can the listeners find you? You

1061
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 1: can find me on Instagram at Bridget Marie and d

1062
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 1: C you can find me. I still have a Twitter account,

1063
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 1: but tweeting a lot less these days. At Bridget Marie.

1064
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:50,400
Speaker 1: You can listen to me on my podcast There Are

1065
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet, and my new limited series

1066
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Speaker 1: with cool Zone Media called Internet hat machine, or we

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Speaker 1: dive into all the ways that the Internet can be

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Speaker 1: a not so fun play us for women and people

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Speaker 1: of color. Yes, super important to this conversation and definitely

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Speaker 1: listeners go check it out if you haven't already. Um,

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Speaker 1: thank you again Bridget for being here. Always a delight,

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Speaker 1: and thank you for listeners for listening. If you would

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Speaker 1: like to contact us, you can or emails stuff and

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Speaker 1: your mom stuff at I heeart me. Yeah, you can

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Speaker 1: find us on Twitter at most of the the podcast all right,

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Speaker 1: Instagram and stuff I've never told you. Thanks, it's always

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Speaker 1: to your super producer Christina, thank you and thanks to

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Speaker 1: you for listening stuff I've never told the respection about

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Speaker 1: high radio. For more podcast on my heart radio, you

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Speaker 1: can check out the heart radio app, Apple podcast, orherever

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Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows