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Speaker 1: Novel. Before we begin, a content warning the following episode

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Speaker 1: contains difficult themes and violence. In twenty fourteen, there was

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Speaker 1: a show running on HBO called Boardwalk Empire. Boardwalk Empire

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Speaker 1: takes place in nineteen twenties New Jersey during Prohibition. It

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Speaker 1: follows the life of corrupt politician Nukie Thompson, whose underworld

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Speaker 1: connections to some of the country's most notorious gangsters help

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Speaker 1: his bloody rise to the top. Steve Buscemi plays Nuckie Thompson,

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Speaker 1: who's based on Enoch Johnson, a real life New Jersey

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Speaker 1: politician and crime boss. The second to last episode is

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Speaker 1: called Friendless Child and is set in the early nineteen thirties.

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Speaker 1: Will Thompson, Nukie's nephew, is working as an assistant district attorney.

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Speaker 1: His boss, a black woman, tells him to pull all

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Speaker 1: the prostitution cases north of one hundred and tenth Street.

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Speaker 2: You need me too, mister Hodge does.

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Speaker 1: Will resent the instructions, and the unnamed black woman becomes conciliatory.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, okay, I don't make the assignments.

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Speaker 3: Would be any different if you did.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's not a big role, but it's based on Unis,

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Speaker 1: and from what I've learned about Unis so far, watching

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Speaker 1: that scene made me almost angry at this portrayal of her.

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Speaker 2: I know you're good at your job.

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Speaker 1: Mister Hodge does too. I doubt Unics would have tried

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Speaker 1: to sue the sensitive male ego in such a simpering way.

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Speaker 1: The character is named in the credits as Beatrice Carson.

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Speaker 1: That's similar enough to Unice Carter. Right when it aired

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Speaker 1: in twenty fourteen, many people thought it was totally and

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Speaker 1: utterly ridiculous, unrealistic, but not because of the simpering.

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Speaker 2: They were like, oh, this is made up. You're just

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Speaker 2: inserting black people into places where they weren't. But the

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Speaker 2: thing is, there was a black woman prosecutor. And it's

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Speaker 2: not even just that not everyone remembers Unice, but that

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Speaker 2: people don't even believe she could have existed. The idea

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Speaker 2: that she could have existed seems like a fantasy to people.

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Speaker 1: When I first learned about Unice Carter, I was so

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Speaker 1: excited to find out about her life. The more I read,

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Speaker 1: the more I alternated between being sad, frustrated, and angry.

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Speaker 1: Unice was a well known woman of her time, a

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Speaker 1: published writer, a socialite, daughter of a well known trailblazing

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Speaker 1: couple a prosecutor. She is the reason one of the

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Speaker 1: most notorious mobsters of all time was sent to jail.

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Speaker 1: Unis had so many recorded accomplishments and yet still manages

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Speaker 1: to be an obscure character in American history. You could

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Speaker 1: have a string of first after your name and still

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Speaker 1: be forgotten. How much does a black woman have to

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Speaker 1: do in order to stay bold faced throughout history.

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Speaker 2: I think it's really fascinating that she was so prominent

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Speaker 2: at the time. I think I knew a little bit

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Speaker 2: about the things she had done, but I actually didn't

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Speaker 2: know that she had achieved notoriety for them at the time.

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Speaker 2: I think when it comes to black history in the

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Speaker 2: US specifically, often we remember people because their legacy can

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Speaker 2: be used to serve a particular narrative. And I sort

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Speaker 2: of wonder if, for Unis, she just never really fit

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Speaker 2: neatly into any particular narrative. Which is not to say

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Speaker 2: she's not remember at all, but she's not as much

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Speaker 2: of a household name as she could be, given the

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Speaker 2: things she accomplished and how well known she was in

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Speaker 2: her heyday. I think also there has been a real

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Speaker 2: erasure in US history of Black people who were movers

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Speaker 2: and shakers or who had access to power in their time.

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Speaker 2: I think that it speaks to who gets remembered and

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Speaker 2: who doesn't.

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Speaker 1: But it's clear that Eunice, perhaps more than anything, wanted

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Speaker 1: to be remembered. She had a certain type of ambition.

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Speaker 1: She wanted to move in certain circles and to be

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Speaker 1: recognized in the world in a certain way. She wanted

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Speaker 1: people to know that she was smart, that she was accomplished.

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Speaker 1: She wanted to have some proximity to power. She wanted

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Speaker 1: to be a judge. That was ultimately what she felt

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Speaker 1: she wanted to do. The things Eunice Carter did were

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Speaker 1: seen as so out of the ordinary for a black

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Speaker 1: woman at the time that when she appeared a character

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Speaker 1: in a television show many decades later, viewers didn't think

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Speaker 1: she could have even existed. Why.

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Speaker 2: I suspect she would think it's because she didn't get

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Speaker 2: to achieve everything she wanted to achieve.

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Speaker 1: From the teams at iHeartRadio and novel. I'm Nicole Perkins

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Speaker 1: and this is the final episode of The Godmother, Episode eight,

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Speaker 1: Finding Unice. On November seventeenth, nineteen forty two, Eunice writes

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Speaker 1: Dewey a letter. Six years have passed since the Lucky

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Speaker 1: Luciano trial. Her handwriting is sure and strong, no splotches,

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Speaker 1: no words crossed out to fix any mistakes. At the time,

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Speaker 1: she's still working in the Prosecutor's office, but she's in

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Speaker 1: a new role now, one that Dewey promoted her to

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Speaker 1: just a couple of years earlier. The letter opens with

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Speaker 1: dear Boss, handwritten on what looks like quality paper, but

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Speaker 1: Dewey has left the Prosecutor's office by the time of writing.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen forty two, Eunice is congratulating him for recently

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Speaker 1: winning the election for governor.

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Speaker 4: After the case things changed. Dewe became very well known.

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Speaker 4: He was a big crime buster national reputation.

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Speaker 1: And Dewey uses that popularity to launch a successful political career.

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Speaker 5: He was Governor of New York from nineteen forty three

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Speaker 5: until nineteen fifty four.

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Speaker 1: As governor, Dewey signed into law the ives Quinn Act,

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Speaker 1: which made New York the first state to ban job

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Speaker 1: discrimination based on race, religion, or creed. He increased unemployment

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Speaker 1: and disability benefits, and helped create the state university system,

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Speaker 1: plus many other accomplishments that helped make the Republican Party

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Speaker 1: more progressive than it had been before. But there's one

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Speaker 1: big twist of his career that must have chafed His

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Speaker 1: new life in politics puts him in a position where

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Speaker 1: he has to undo one of the biggest triumphs of

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Speaker 1: his career. During World War Two, New York's government finds

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Speaker 1: themselves in need of a very particular kind of deal broker.

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Speaker 1: At that time, New York's waterfront had less of a

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Speaker 1: touristy vibe than it does these days. It was run

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Speaker 1: by the mob.

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Speaker 4: The waterfront was the Fulton Fish Mawaukeet, and fish was

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Speaker 4: a big racket.

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Speaker 1: But World War Two is underway and the US Navy

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Speaker 1: sees that it's imperative new York's port is protected.

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Speaker 6: New York was a huge port, even bigger than in

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Speaker 6: many ways than it is today.

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Speaker 1: The US Navy needs someone to persuade the mob controlling

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Speaker 1: the port that they should work with authorities to keep

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Speaker 1: New York safe. Someone the mob will trust, and who

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Speaker 1: better than the former boss of bosses who's been languishing

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Speaker 1: in prison for the last decade, Lucky Luciano himself.

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Speaker 6: He uses his connections within Italy and his connections through

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Speaker 6: organized crime groups across New York to make sure that

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Speaker 6: the ports remain free, safe and open during World War Two.

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Speaker 4: If you see anything suspicious, you have to pass the

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Speaker 4: word along.

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Speaker 1: Because of his operation, Lucky gets himself a deal.

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Speaker 4: Jay ed go over later, so sarcastically remarked that they

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Speaker 4: did everything but give Luciano the Naval Cross.

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Speaker 1: He's pardoned, and not just any pardon, but a pardon

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Speaker 1: from the Governor of New York himself, which by nineteen

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Speaker 1: forty six is of course Thomas E. Dewey that had

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Speaker 1: to hurt.

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Speaker 5: Luciano was released from prison in forty six and goes

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Speaker 5: off to Italy.

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Speaker 1: Lucky remains active in organized crime, silently financing ventures in

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Speaker 1: New York, Las Vegas, Cuba for the most part from

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Speaker 1: across the ocean, until he dies of a heart attack

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Speaker 1: at Naples International Airport in nineteen sixty two. His body

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Speaker 1: is buried in a cemetery in Queens. His path and

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Speaker 1: Dewey's are finally unspoiled, which leaves Dewey and Unice.

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Speaker 4: I have no doubt that Dewey respected Unice and Eunice

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Speaker 4: I think respected him she actually campaigned for him.

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Speaker 1: But governor of New York is no small feat. He

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Speaker 1: doesn't just have pardoning power as governor, he can also

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Speaker 1: appoint every election Eunice is by Dewey's side. Dewey even

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Speaker 1: makes a bid for the White House in nineteen forty

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Speaker 1: four and forty eight, unsuccessfully, of course, although it was close.

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Speaker 1: At any moment in that eleven year reign, Dewey could

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Speaker 1: have helped Unice achieve her own career ambitions.

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Speaker 6: He was very comfortable singing her praises as far as

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Speaker 6: the role that she'd played, but he never reached the

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Speaker 6: point where he was comfortable giving her a public face.

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Speaker 4: It was kind of a point of controversy that he

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Speaker 4: could have appointed her as a judge. He never appointed her.

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Speaker 4: I don't think you can look up and go. He

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Speaker 4: just never had the opportunity. Why didn't he appoint here?

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Speaker 4: He knew she was very confident, She was very devoted

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Speaker 4: to him.

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Speaker 1: Dewey was progressive enough to appoint Unice to his team

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Speaker 1: and express admiration for all of her hard work. But

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Speaker 1: why was it so hard for him to help her

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Speaker 1: move to the bench. It's clear she was a star

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Speaker 1: on the rise. But her career seemed to plateau while

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Speaker 1: the men in the good old boys network surrounding her

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Speaker 1: kept climbing to success. I honestly can't say I'm surprised

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Speaker 1: that Dewey had no problem taking advantage of Unice's support

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Speaker 1: and expertise without letting it pay.

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Speaker 2: Off for her.

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Speaker 1: But why was unus so loyal to Dewey when he

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Speaker 1: didn't seem interested in helping her without benefit to himself.

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Speaker 1: It all seems to follow that old axum. Black people

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Speaker 1: have to work twice as hard to get half, and

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Speaker 1: that's not accounting for the unique challenges of being a

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Speaker 1: black woman. Unis may have felt that a judgeship could

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Speaker 1: have created a legacy for her, would have written her

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Speaker 1: more firmly than anything else could have into the pages

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Speaker 1: of American history, but it didn't happen. That's not to

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Speaker 1: say she didn't make an impact. Unice's work with Dewey

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Speaker 1: did leave a precedent of sorts that continues to influence

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Speaker 1: the modern justice system. Unice didn't pioneer these things, but

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Speaker 1: she was part of a pivot in the American legal system.

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Speaker 1: Like Dewey's joinder law used so effectively to convict Lucky

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Speaker 1: Luciano in association with his co defendants. Modern iterations of

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Speaker 1: that law are still in use to this day, sometimes

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Speaker 1: in ways that UNICE would have supported.

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Speaker 7: It's actually what groups like the Southern Poverty Law Center

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Speaker 7: used to bankrupt the Ku Kuk Klan in certain cities.

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Speaker 1: But in the criminal world, laws like the Joinder law

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Speaker 1: have often been used in ways that are heavily racialized,

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Speaker 1: like targeting gang violence in la and New York.

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Speaker 7: Those investigations are often heavily raced based. They're looking for

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Speaker 7: young black men who have certain associations, who wear certain

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Speaker 7: kinds of clothing, and really sweep in large numbers of

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Speaker 7: people in the community in the effort to try to

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Speaker 7: turn back gun violence in a particular area.

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Speaker 1: We've even seen it used against protest movements.

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Speaker 7: We've seen that in the state of Georgia, where the

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Speaker 7: governor has gone after activists attempting to stop the creation

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Speaker 7: of a large training facility near Atlanta called cop City.

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Speaker 1: None of these were inventions of UNISES, and she's not

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Speaker 1: responsible for the way they've evolved into their current forms.

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Speaker 1: But I do wonder whether history would have remembered units

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Speaker 1: better if she'd worked against the system as it was then,

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Speaker 1: instead of from within it, whether or not she yearned

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Speaker 1: to dismantle it change it. With her very presence in

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Speaker 1: those rooms of power, history has seemed to remember the

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Speaker 1: radicals and the protesters a little more clearly. I think

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Speaker 1: back to her essay breaking Through that road map of

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Speaker 1: sorts she wrote for her own career trajectory, but also

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Speaker 1: of the people of Harlem trapped in the modern ghetto.

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Speaker 1: Could she have imagined that nearly a century after she

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Speaker 1: wrote those words, thirty eight percent of those imprisoned in

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Speaker 1: the US are black, despite being only thirteen percent of

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Speaker 1: the country's population, removed from their communities in service to

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Speaker 1: a sprawling brand of law enforcement that her own work

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Speaker 1: helped lay down in history.

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Speaker 7: A problem with situations like Unice Carter is if you

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Speaker 7: are the one person, if you are one of few people,

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Speaker 7: and you don't have meaningful access to power in that office,

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Speaker 7: and you don't have a meaningful voice in that office,

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Speaker 7: it too easily devolves into tokenism. Right, It's too easily

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Speaker 7: transformed into Now the institution is using you to validate

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Speaker 7: itself because it's gone out and created a more diverse workforce,

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Speaker 7: and you yourself find that two years, three years in,

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Speaker 7: you really haven't been able to shift the institution.

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Speaker 1: Unice, perhaps sinsing that the judgeship was never going to happen,

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Speaker 1: quits the world of law for good in the early

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifties.

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Speaker 7: If you are somebody who is trying to rock the boat,

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Speaker 7: you are always subject to the status quo rocking it

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Speaker 7: right back. And that applies for anyone rocking the boat,

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Speaker 7: but I think it applies with special force to black

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Speaker 7: people who are trying to do that.

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Speaker 1: Unice's guiding belief has always been help me further my

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Speaker 1: career and I'll be loyal to you. But the flip

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Speaker 1: side of that coin is the toll it ends up

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Speaker 1: taking on Unice's personal life, because when those dreams don't

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Speaker 1: come to fruition, she looks for someone to blame and

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Speaker 1: finds him a little closer to home.

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Speaker 2: She was never made a judge, but I think she

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Speaker 2: always felt that it was because of Alvius' politics.

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Speaker 1: As in Eunice's younger brother Addie and William's only son

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Speaker 1: Alfaeus hunting. When there's anything going on in my life,

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Speaker 1: good or bad, I turned to the group chats, A

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Speaker 1: bad date, a single thumbs down, emoji a good date,

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Speaker 1: thumbs up A very very good date. Well that gets

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Speaker 1: full sentences.

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Speaker 2: My impression of Unice is not that she was someone

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Speaker 2: who had a lot of close girlfriends or friends who

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Speaker 2: she really talked to about everything that was going on

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Speaker 2: with her internally, people who she hung out with and

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Speaker 2: gossiped with and confided in.

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Speaker 1: The picture I see of Unice in her later years

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Speaker 1: is a lonely one. I find myself yearning still to

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Speaker 1: know what kind of friend Unice was, Who does she

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Speaker 1: share secrets with, share her dreams with? But there doesn't

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Speaker 1: seem to be any of that in Unice's life. For

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Speaker 1: a while, Unis has one friend, Mary McLeod Bethune.

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Speaker 2: Bethoon was that person, even though they had kind of

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Speaker 2: a mentor mentee relationship, but you know, they were also close.

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Speaker 1: Mary McLeod Bethune is a civil rights activist and educator.

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Speaker 1: Unice met through her mother, Addie Hunton, but they eventually

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Speaker 1: have a major falling out over something that seems kind

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Speaker 1: of trivial looking back. Unice is hoping to be chosen

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Speaker 1: to represent the National Council of Negro Women at a

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Speaker 1: major event, but she isn't and for some reason or

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Speaker 1: another she blames Mary for the fact that she was overlooked.

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Speaker 2: That was just a sad thing. You know, when you

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Speaker 2: watch two friends break up, and it's just depressing. I

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Speaker 2: think sometimes her personal relationships they weren't always great.

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Speaker 1: There's another anecdote about Unice that also speaks to me

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Speaker 1: about her loneliness. It's a memory of Lyle Carter Junior's,

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Speaker 1: Unice's only child. He lived most of his childhood away

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Speaker 1: from his parents, often on long stays with extended family

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Speaker 1: and Barbados. But on one occasion, when Lyle Junior is

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Speaker 1: around eleven or twelve, he finds himself alone with his

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Speaker 1: mother and Eunice asks Lyle Junior for advice. Does he

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Speaker 1: think she should get a divorce from her husband? His father.

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Speaker 1: There have been rumors of affairs throughout Unice's marriage to

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Speaker 1: Lyle Carter sor her dentist husband, but there's something tragic

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Speaker 1: about the idea of Unice asking her pre adolescent son

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Speaker 1: for advice. She could have used a girlfriend at that moment.

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Speaker 2: Her marriage, from what we can tell, wasn't the happiest.

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Speaker 2: I can't say for sure why that was, and I

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Speaker 2: certainly am not influenced to blame it on her ambition,

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Speaker 2: just doing my personal principles. But yeah, but I reading

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Speaker 2: the correspondence with Bathoon, I can see how her attitude

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Speaker 2: would make personal relationships difficult for her.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes she could have used even a sibling to turn

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Speaker 1: to at that moment, But Eunice's path and the path

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Speaker 1: her younger brother Alfaeus took they went in totally different directions.

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Speaker 1: Alfaus Hunting was a scholar and an activist who was

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Speaker 1: a tall, slim man with a thick mustache and eyebrows.

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Speaker 1: Possibly Alfaus had been her companion during the riots in

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Speaker 1: Atlanta and their mother's adventures in Germany. Like Eunice in adulthood,

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Speaker 1: Alfaus is committed to the project of racial uplift.

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Speaker 3: Not only African American people, but all people of color

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Speaker 3: and fighting for working class rights, fighting for unions, fighting

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Speaker 3: for national liberation against colonialism.

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Speaker 1: Also, like his sister, he works with some major leading

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Speaker 1: figures like Paul Robeson and W. E. B. Du Boyce.

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Speaker 1: But unlike Unics, who remains in the Republican Party her

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Speaker 1: entire life, Alphaeus takes a sharp political left turn.

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Speaker 2: Alpheus was a communist, like a real communist.

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Speaker 1: The same year that the Trial of the Century unfolds,

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Speaker 1: Alpheus makes a career choice of a very different kind.

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Speaker 3: In nineteen thirty six, al Faeus officially joined the Communist Party.

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Speaker 2: He was active with a lot of left wing organizations.

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Speaker 2: He was a supporter of Mao and Stalin. He was,

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Speaker 2: you know, the real deal.

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Speaker 3: I think that was the beginning of the troubles for Alphaeus.

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Speaker 1: It's fascinating to think of Alphaeus finding his way to communism.

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Speaker 1: My siblings and I are all very different from each other.

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Speaker 1: But my older sister, the firstborn, is the golden child

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Speaker 1: of the Fa family. She always does the right thing

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Speaker 1: and is the kind of person who waves as strangers

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Speaker 1: like they're best friends. She also keeps the peace. My

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Speaker 1: mother says, I'm her rebel, but I tend to set

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Speaker 1: up tougher boundaries than my sister and my brother. Plus

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Speaker 1: I'm the middle child, It's my birthright to cause a

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Speaker 1: little havoc. Alphaeus is the baby brother, the only boy.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if part of the reason these two siblings

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Speaker 1: are so different is so that they can stand out

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Speaker 1: from each other. Like Uni studies at Smith, a predominantly

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Speaker 1: white private women's college, with her fees paid for by

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Speaker 1: a wealthy friend of their mother. Alphaeus, on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: works as a railway porter at a train station through

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Speaker 1: his college years at Howard University, a historically black school.

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying he became a communist because he was

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Speaker 2: frustrated that his sister's college was paid for and his wasn't,

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Speaker 2: But he would have been hanging out with pullman porters

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Speaker 2: and getting exposed to the labor movement. He did have

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Speaker 2: very different experiences.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen forty one, as Unice is playing the perfect

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Speaker 1: respectable Republican, the FBI is creating a file on her

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Speaker 1: younger brother. One day in May, Alfaz is reading a

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Speaker 1: newspaper when he comes across his own name. It's in

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Speaker 1: an article which states that the House of Unamerican Activities Committee,

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Speaker 1: created to examine any behavior considered to be a threat

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Speaker 1: to the public like communist thought, has branded him a communist.

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Speaker 3: He actually read in the newspaper the charges against him

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Speaker 3: before he was informed by the committee that he was

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Speaker 3: even being charged.

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Speaker 1: He writes to the committee demanding the right to testify,

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Speaker 1: but it's not until the following year that he receives

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Speaker 1: a letter from the FBI exonerating him of all charges.

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Speaker 1: But as the years progressed, his file grows thicker notes

347
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Speaker 1: reports associations.

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Speaker 3: Presumably al Faeus saw in socialism and communism the path

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Speaker 3: for African American equality and black liberation. I think Unice

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Speaker 3: saw a different path.

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Speaker 1: As their paths diverge, Eunice and al Faus clashed publicly

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Speaker 1: with each other.

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Speaker 2: Not directly, but they were ideologically opposed on a lot

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Speaker 2: of things. For example, when Thomas Dewey was running for President,

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Speaker 2: ALTHEUS was calling him a reactionary in the press, which

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Speaker 2: I'm sure she didn't like very much.

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Speaker 1: By the early nineteen fifties, Unice has given up Act

358
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Speaker 1: of Law and is working with a few prominent black

359
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Speaker 1: women's associations on their domestic and international efforts.

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Speaker 2: She was at the founding of the United Nations, I

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Speaker 2: think on behalf of the National Council of Negro Women.

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Speaker 2: After World War Two there was a lot going on.

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Speaker 1: One of those things is the UN Convention on Genocide Postwar.

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Speaker 1: The Convention aims to define genocide so it can be

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Speaker 1: considered an international crime.

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Speaker 2: And in the early fifties there was a movement to

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Speaker 2: get the United States to ratify the Convention.

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Speaker 1: Unice wants to get the US on board, and for

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Speaker 1: a while it's a family affair because so doaes alphaeis.

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Speaker 2: Eunice testified before the Senate in favor of for ratification.

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Speaker 2: She was actually the only black person to testify for it.

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Speaker 1: But there are significant levels of pushback against the idea

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Speaker 1: of ratification in America. One in particular, becomes a sticking point.

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Speaker 2: One of the arguments against the US's ratification of the

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Speaker 2: Convention was that the US itself was in violation of

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Speaker 2: the Convention. The number one concern was because of the

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Speaker 2: prevalence of lynching and overall because of the treatment of

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Speaker 2: black Americans.

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Speaker 1: Imagine Units going to the podium wearing one of her

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Speaker 1: white lace collars is the nineteen fifties, sir hat and

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Speaker 1: gloves probably would have been on points. She's standing in

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Speaker 1: front of a panel of senators, a room full of

383
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Speaker 1: people behind her. She speaks some of the few words

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Speaker 1: we have of hers that have lasted through the years

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Speaker 1: to be brushed off and examined again in the harsh

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Speaker 1: light of present day.

387
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Speaker 8: The situation of the Negro people in this country is

388
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,679
Speaker 8: in no way involved the lynching of an individual or

389
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Speaker 8: of several individuals has no relation to the extinction of

390
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Speaker 8: masses of people because of race, religion, or political belief.

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Speaker 1: Over seventy percent of people lynched in America were black.

392
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Speaker 1: That's at least three thousand, four hundred and forty six

393
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Speaker 1: Black Americans. Up until nineteen sixty eight that we know of,

394
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Speaker 1: lynching was off in a form of vigilante justice, with

395
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Speaker 1: white people hanging and mutilating black people accused of any

396
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 1: number of crimes from loitering to making eye contact to

397
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 1: sexual assault without any formal charges, a way of eradicating

398
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 1: black life based on race. It was absolutely a form

399
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,880
Speaker 1: of genocide. So we don't know whether UNUS really believed

400
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 1: this or not, but I think she felt we want

401
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: to get it ratified. We need to convince people that

402
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 1: it's not going to cause problems for the US, and

403
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,400
Speaker 1: so this is what I'm going to say. It's hard

404
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,199
Speaker 1: to remember our icons could have been as flawed as

405
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: the rest of us, especially when you have to follow

406
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 1: certain cultural moras. Don't speak ill of the dead, don't

407
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 1: disrespect your elders, don't share family business with outsiders. We

408
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 1: see it when it comes to looking beyond Martin Luther

409
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 1: King Junior's legacy to see him as a human being

410
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: who may have made mistakes in his marriage. He became

411
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: a martyr of civil rights movement, and to speak beyond

412
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 1: his accomplishments is to be disrespectful. It's disappointing that Unus

413
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 1: would argue that lynching should not be a part of

414
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Speaker 1: this basic human rights consideration. But if that is how

415
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 1: Unus feels, her brother Alphaeus does not agree.

416
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 2: Alpheus was not willing to make that concession. An organization

417
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 2: that he worked with, called the Civil Rights Congress, drafted

418
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Speaker 2: a document called we Charge Genocide, which was submitted to

419
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 2: the UN, essentially saying yes, the situation in the US

420
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 2: is exactly the type of thing that the Genocide Convention

421
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: speaks to, and Alpheus was involved in drafting it and

422
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 2: was also a signatory to the document.

423
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Speaker 1: I wonder if Unus was angry with her brother for

424
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: being at such cross purposes. It probably caused a lot

425
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 1: of tongue wagging for this brother and sister to be

426
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: so at odds. Did Unis take Alphaeus's stance as a

427
00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 1: personal attack against her.

428
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Speaker 2: I don't think he was doing it personally. It wasn't

429
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 2: about her, but I think Unis probably, both in that

430
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 2: situation and in the Thomas Dewey situation, felt very undermined

431
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 2: by him. She probably felt frustrated that he was taking

432
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Speaker 2: public positions. She probably took his politics a little personally.

433
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Speaker 3: I think that she took the wrong stance. I think

434
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 3: because of her background in law enforcement, she knew it

435
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 3: was the wrong stance. I think that it was either

436
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 3: incredibly naive or disingenuous for her to blame her brother

437
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 3: for the limitations that were placed on her in a

438
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 3: Jim Crow racist, sexist society.

439
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: It's a rift they never come to rectify. In the

440
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: year that followed Unis testifying, in nineteen fifty one, Alphaeus

441
00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: stood before the House of Unamerican Activities Committee time in person.

442
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: He refuses to give up the names of those who'd

443
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: contributed to a civil rights fund which had come under

444
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: the scrutiny of the committee.

445
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 3: And because al Fais took the principled stand that he

446
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 3: would not divulge their names, he was sentenced to six

447
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 3: months in prison.

448
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 2: He had a vision of what he thought was best

449
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 2: for the world, and he was willing to sacrifice a

450
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 2: lot personally for it.

451
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: After that prison stint, was over, Alfaus finds it difficult

452
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 1: to get a foot back on the ladder of politics

453
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: in America.

454
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 2: A lot of the organizations that he had worked with

455
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 2: sort of fell apart. He basically couldn't find work in

456
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 2: the US, and he ended up spending most of the

457
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 2: rest of his life in Africa.

458
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: For the rest of her life, Unice will blame her

459
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: failure to see of a judge ship on Alpheus's communist misadventures.

460
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 1: Maybe it was easier to point the finger at someone

461
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: she felt had betrayed her than to confront the fact

462
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: that Dewey, someone she'd been loyal to, had let her down.

463
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: Maybe it was easier to blame her brother, a black man,

464
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: than it was to point the finger at Dewey, a

465
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: white man with power. Whatever the reason, as Unice aged,

466
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: she'd broken off her relationships with her brother, was living

467
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 1: in a rocky marriage, had strained her relationship with her son,

468
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: and had lost her only friend. When people looked at

469
00:31:41,160 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 1: Unice as she moved into later life, what did they see.

470
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 2: When I was growing up? The image I had was

471
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 2: more just a stern faced woman with like a fur coat.

472
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 2: I think I had this idea that she were for

473
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 2: a goat?

474
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: Is that from some pictures that you saw now?

475
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 2: I think it came from just the way my dad

476
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 2: talked about her.

477
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: Leah Carter is the great granddaughter of Eunice Hunt and Carter.

478
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: Leah's voice has been featured throughout the series. Her contributions

479
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 1: have been some of the only direct contact I found

480
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: with Unice when searching for a sense of who she was,

481
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 1: above and beyond her historical record. As well as being

482
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 1: Unus's great granddaughter, Leah has spent time carrying out meticulous

483
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: research for her father's book. Her father is Stephen L. Carter,

484
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 1: a lawyer, professor, and author and Eunice Carter's grandson.

485
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 2: She was apparently always very glamorously dressed and put together.

486
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: Before Leah spent her days going through archives, letters, journals.

487
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 1: There were the bright yet hazy details passed down to

488
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: her from the childhood memories of her own father.

489
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 2: I knew a few things that my dad had told

490
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 2: stories about her, just as his grandmother. I can't remember

491
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 2: if he said that she wore her coats or I

492
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 2: just ad lipped that in my mind, but that was

493
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 2: sort of my childhood image for her.

494
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 1: Leah's father remembers unus as a stern grandmother and an

495
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: imposing presence. The grandchildren were all a little scared of her.

496
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 2: She would correct his grammar, and he always said she

497
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 2: used the type of person who would correct to the

498
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 2: way that they were using their silverware at dinner.

499
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 1: That makes sense to me. Eunice in her life always

500
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: had to be pristine. She was detail oriented, and she

501
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: was often in the kinds of spaces that were full

502
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: of white people who probably looked for the slightest flaw

503
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: on how she carried herself or communicated. She probably tried

504
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: to train her grandchildren for the harsh world she'd experienced.

505
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 2: She traveled a lot in her life. Her life went

506
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 2: on a lot of cruises, and I don't know if

507
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 2: that sort of added to their image of her as

508
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,720
Speaker 2: like kind of an imposing, faraway figure.

509
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: What stands out to me is how Eunice's accomplishments always

510
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: seemed to keep her on the edges of time, from

511
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 1: the Luciano trial to her own family law.

512
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 2: When I was younger, she was just this figurehead of

513
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,240
Speaker 2: here's the type of thing you're supposed to be achieving.

514
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,800
Speaker 2: Not that anyone ever told me that you too should

515
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 2: be accomplished as Unis, but just I think that's probably

516
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 2: what I would have felt like her father and her

517
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 2: father's father and Eunice herself. Leo became a lawyer, but

518
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 2: it was only when researching her great grandmother that Leah

519
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 2: discovered the earlier parts of Unice's professional life, including one

520
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 2: aspect that overlapped with a writer who reminds me of

521
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 2: Unis in many ways. I thought about this way back

522
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 2: in episode two. I didn't know that she had been

523
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 2: a writer. One of my favorite facts was she was

524
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 2: inducted into the Harlem Writers Guild along with Zorn Neil Hurston,

525
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 2: which was so amazing to me. I was like, oh,

526
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 2: my gosh, that's my great grandma. Hey, I was Sara

527
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 2: in Hurston really overwhelmed by that.

528
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 1: Unice achieved a lot of recognition in her own time,

529
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: especially in the black press. It's no exaggeration to say

530
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: she was famous all over America, but her current day

531
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 1: legacy seems to be fading in real time. That's a

532
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: big part of why I decided to do this podcast.

533
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 2: I could go on about this for a while, about

534
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 2: the way that we talk about or don't talk about

535
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 2: black history in this country, the way that we treat

536
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 2: black history as separate from history. I certainly felt, especially

537
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 2: when I was very young, what we were taught about

538
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 2: black people was that nobody had really done anything until

539
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 2: quite recently. That there was slavery, and then everyone was

540
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 2: a sharecropper for a while, and then the civil rights

541
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 2: movement happened, and now everything's great. And I'm not saying

542
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 2: we shouldn't talk about slavery or sharecropping. Obviously those things

543
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:14,280
Speaker 2: are really important, But there are so many things that

544
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 2: black people have done that have been forgotten or kind

545
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 2: of just buried, and that is very frustrating.

546
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,720
Speaker 1: Eunice Hunting Carter is responsible for the most sensational trial

547
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 1: in the history of American organized crime. Why does her

548
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 1: legacy only seem to survive in the realm of hazy

549
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 1: childhood memories of a stern, older woman in a fur

550
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: coat correcting grammar. She was a legend in the making

551
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: long before the Lucky Luciano trial.

552
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 2: Obviously she intimidated her grandkids, but I think she intimidated

553
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 2: a lot of people in real life. She was just

554
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 2: kind of a fierce person.

555
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,800
Speaker 1: It's hard to know what kept Unis from her judgeship

556
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 1: or why someone with such an outstanding work ethic and

557
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: influential connections did not go further in her career. Is

558
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 1: it just enough to point the finger at racism and misogyny?

559
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 1: Was she too dedicated to her ambitions? Her years as

560
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 1: a Harlem socialite proved she knew how to let her

561
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 1: hair down and shake a tail feather. What exactly was

562
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 1: the secret password that would have opened up her career

563
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: and made her a household name. I wish I had

564
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: that time machine so I could go back and ask

565
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: Thomas E doing look here, fella, what gives? He'd probably

566
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: have me sent away and lobotomized. But I still try

567
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 1: to fight for my girl. Unis would she had fought

568
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 1: for me? I can relate in many ways to Unis,

569
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,800
Speaker 1: the pressure of navigating predominantly white spaces while they constantly

570
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 1: in your right to be there, having a strong idea

571
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: of how you see your career going, and trying to

572
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,240
Speaker 1: be a team player while others take credit for your work.

573
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 1: I know what it's like to be too direct with

574
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 1: firm boundaries, or to be called unlikable as shorthand for

575
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: she won't let me bully her. I even know what

576
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 1: it means to stay in an unhappy relationship for security

577
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 1: and status. But I've never been good at brown nosing

578
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 1: or staying loyal to someone who doesn't seem to support

579
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 1: my growth. I also wouldn't sacrifice my community for the

580
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 1: sake of a greater good that doesn't take my people

581
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 1: into consideration. If Unison I met today, she'd probably be

582
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: aghast at the lack of structure in my working life,

583
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:52,879
Speaker 1: but maybe she'd secretly admire the freedom of my dating life.

584
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 1: I'd let her read my memoir and poetry. I think

585
00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: she'd be proud to see me making a living out

586
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 1: of my createsivity and disappointed that the only dining silverware

587
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 1: etiquette I know is outside in and looking for Unice's story.

588
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 1: I am reminded of all the other black women in

589
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: America who have had their stories buried or forgotten.

590
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,399
Speaker 2: If you do something valuable with your life, it's still

591
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 2: valuable even if people don't remember it. The influence that

592
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 2: you have while you're alive matters, even if after you're

593
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 2: gone everyone forgets about you. Even though that's frustrating, but

594
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 2: I think it doesn't mean that it was all for nothing.

595
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 1: Legacy is important to me. I understand Unice's desire to

596
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: leave her mark on history. Time has worn it down,

597
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 1: but if you know where to look, you can still

598
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: make it out. I have a fear of being forgotten,

599
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: that my life, my art, my work will disappear, and

600
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: I don't even have a fourth of Unice's accomplishments. But

601
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: as I've learned about Unice Hunting Carter, I know that

602
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 1: someone somewhere down the line will find a faint marking

603
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 1: of me. And even if it's only one person who

604
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,919
Speaker 1: tries to track down the history of me, that will

605
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 1: be enough. As a child free woman, I don't have

606
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 1: children who will bless me with grandkids and great grandkids

607
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:40,840
Speaker 1: who might one day research and write a book about me.

608
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 1: Fortunately Unice Hunting Carter does, and now we can see

609
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 1: that she was a complicated, fascinating, perhaps unlikable, definitely beloved

610
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:58,479
Speaker 1: and smart woman whose tenacity took down New York's most

611
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: notorious gangster amid the racism and sexism of nineteen thirties America,

612
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 1: and who fought just as fiercely for herself. And one

613
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: of those great grandchildren has some advice for you.

614
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:23,720
Speaker 2: Find these stories, dig them up if they've been buried.

615
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 1: You've been listening to the Godmother.

616
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 2: My name's Leah Carter. I am Eunis Carter's great granddaughter.

617
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 2: My dad, Stephen Carter, wrote the book Invisible, the Forgotten

618
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 2: story of the black woman lawyer who took down America's

619
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 2: most famous mobster, and I did a lot of the

620
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:57,400
Speaker 2: research for that book.

621
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 4: I'm Marilyn Greenwald. I'm a professor of of journalism at

622
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:05,280
Speaker 4: Ohio University, and I'm the author of five biographies, including

623
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 4: one of Eunice Hunting Carter.

624
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 5: My name is Robert Whalan and I'm an emerathus Professor

625
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 5: of history at Queen's University of Charlotte here in Charlotte,

626
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:15,800
Speaker 5: North Carolina.

627
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 2: Hi, my name is Ellen Paulson.

628
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 5: I research and I write books about women who were

629
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 5: involved with notorious gangsters and desperadoes.

630
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 6: I am Claire White and I am the director of

631
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,800
Speaker 6: education at the Mob Museum in downtown Las Vegas.

632
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,320
Speaker 7: My name is Brandon Busky and I am the director

633
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 7: of the Criminal Law Reform Project at the ACLU.

634
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 3: My name is Tony Passanowski and I am a independent

635
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 3: historian and author. Aside from Dorothy Hunton's biography of her

636
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 3: husband Alveus, my book is the only standalone biography of

637
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 3: Alfaus Hunting.

638
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 1: The Godmother is produced by Novel for iHeartRadio. For more

639
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: from Novel, visit novel dot Audio. The Godmother is hosted

640
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 1: and written by me Nicole Perkins. Our producer is Leona Hamid.

641
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: Additional production from Ajuajima Broumpong, Ronald Young Junior and Zianna Yusuf.

642
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:29,399
Speaker 1: Our editor is Ajua Jima Broompong. Additional story editing from

643
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 1: Max O'Brien and Mitha Lee Raw and our researcher is

644
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 1: Zaiana Yusuf. Additional research from Mohammed Ahmed. David Waters is

645
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:41,720
Speaker 1: our executive producer. Field production by Tnito Romani and Pallas Shaw,

646
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:46,760
Speaker 1: Sound design, mixing and scoring by Daniel Kempsen. Our score

647
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 1: was written, performed and recorded by Jeff Parker. Music supervision

648
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 1: by Nicholas Alexander and David Waters. Production management and endless

649
00:43:55,640 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 1: patients from Sharie Houston, Sarah Tobin and Charlotte Wolfe. Fact

650
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:05,359
Speaker 1: checking by Fendell Fulton and Donia Suleiman. Story development by

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Speaker 1: Madeline Parr, Jess Swinburne, Esseiana Yusuf. Willard Foxton is our

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Speaker 1: creative director of Development. Special thanks to Leah Carter, Stephen Carter,

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Speaker 1: Angela J. Davis, Andrew Fernley, Marilyn Greenwald, Sondra Lebedy, Katherine Godfrey,

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Speaker 1: Nadia Maidie, Amalia Sortland, Sean Glenn, Neil Krishnan, Julia Bromberg,

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Speaker 1: Katrina Norvelle, Carly Frankel, and all the team at w

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Speaker 1: Emmy

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Speaker 2: Novel