1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 2: Hello odd Laws listeners and viewers, You're about to get 3 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 2: a conversation with Turrek Monsieur, CEO of Kelshi. This was 4 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 2: recorded live on stage at Chicago's Untitled supper Club. We 5 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 2: had a blast, and we hope you enjoyed the show. 6 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 2: You're definitely having a moment. The South Park episode last night, 7 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 2: it was all about prediction markets. 8 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 3: Did you watch it live? 9 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,639 Speaker 4: I try to avoid watching or reading anything about us 10 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 4: without kind of getting the third party reaction before. So 11 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 4: we didn't know because we saw the thing, like the 12 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 4: announcement a few days ago there apisode prediction Markets, and 13 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 4: we started kind of imagining all the types of things 14 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 4: that they're going to do. 15 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: It was crazy. 16 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 4: I mean the highlight I think is like they copied 17 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 4: the app like, yeah, exactly, I was. I mean, they 18 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 4: even had the referrallable and they even had some of 19 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 4: the bugs we haven't they have. It's like it was unbelievable. 20 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 4: So but you know, it was. It was pretty cool. 21 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 4: I mean, there's a few parts that I disagree with, 22 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 4: but the other for the rest, I mean, we really 23 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:12,680 Speaker 4: enjoyed it. 24 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:14,119 Speaker 1: I watched it this. 25 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 2: Morning why do you think prediction markets are having this 26 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 2: moment now after they've been around for decades? Literally? Why? 27 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 4: Now? Yeah, I mean I think there's like path dependence 28 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 4: in these things, right, Like it's not sort of like 29 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 4: I'm a strong believer. That's sort of like you know, 30 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 4: in history, you have to have a few agents that 31 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 4: sort of like push and you know, push the boundary 32 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 4: of certain things and somebody's got to do it type thing. 33 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 4: But my view on this, and that's why we started 34 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 4: the companies. The fundamentals are there, like this should be 35 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 4: a very large market. And we could talk a little 36 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 4: bit about the history. But when we first started the company, 37 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 4: this idea of sort of like a financial market that 38 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 4: prices questions about the future sort of we were very 39 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 4: drawn to it because, you know, one, if you could 40 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 4: build such a financial market, it could be the largest 41 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 4: of them all because the largest number of people will care. 42 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 4: And the number two could be the most important because 43 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 4: you know, yes, pricing the you know, Sheriff Tesla is important, 44 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 4: but pricing whether brexfast is going to happen, or Drum's 45 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 4: gonna win in election, or or what's you know, the 46 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 4: sort of the next natural disaster going to be. I 47 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 4: think that's at least as important, if not more, at 48 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 4: least from our perspective. I mean, when I looked at 49 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 4: the history and you were chatting a little about the history, 50 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 4: like the elephant the room was regulatory, it was I mean, 51 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 4: there's a very simple kind of like first order factory here. Well, 52 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 4: well it was illegal, like you know that that that's 53 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 4: a pretty good reason for Yeah, I mean it's a 54 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 4: pretty good reason for something not to you know, generally 55 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 4: kind of go mainstream and exist. And the legality has 56 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 4: been sort of the thing that has weighed on all 57 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 4: prior prediction markets. I don't know if you ever counted 58 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 4: in trade. 59 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I trade it on there. 60 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 4: Well you know, so so here you go, right, I 61 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 4: mean in Trade was you know how that story kind 62 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 4: of ended? 63 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: How familiar are you? 64 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 2: I don't know how to end it? 65 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 4: So so so John Delaney was this was a sort of 66 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 4: founder of in Trade and it's just kind of visionary. 67 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 4: I mean, like Dawn in many ways. I mean he 68 00:02:57,880 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 4: really believed that. You know, he was on CNBC back 69 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 4: in two thousand sort of like talking about the forecast 70 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 4: for the election and stuff. But he sort of ran 71 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:06,519 Speaker 4: offshore from Dublin and it was kind of like a 72 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 4: VPN stype set up. And then the company got shut 73 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 4: down in twenty twelve by the government, and two weeks 74 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 4: later John Laney died and he died climb Mount Everest, 75 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 4: and there was a kind of whole controversy of like 76 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 4: what happened? I mean, you know, was there some sort 77 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,639 Speaker 4: of causation there? But for us, when we we got 78 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 4: really obsessed by doing this and realized like, actually, the 79 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 4: only way for this to go big is we got 80 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:33,239 Speaker 4: to legalize it, like there was no other way. And 81 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 4: no matter how big the company would get, no matter 82 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 4: how kind of how much culture there was going to 83 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 4: be around the company, it didn't really matter because the 84 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 4: government could shut it down and they will after a 85 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 4: certain level of scale. And so this was sort of 86 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 4: like we spent you know, three years and a half 87 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 4: when we started after starting CALSHI, like all we did 88 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 4: was basically regulatory work. 89 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: It was like, how do we leave fight exactly? 90 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 4: The fight was actually like more like five years and 91 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 4: a half, Like with three years and a half to 92 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 4: get to legalize prediction markets, and was sort of the 93 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 4: whole thing with the prior administration around the election market, 94 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 4: which we were completely uncompromising on. 95 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: We had to do that and that was kind. 96 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 4: Of a whole two year long process that ended without 97 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 4: suing the government, our own regulator. And then and then 98 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 4: I think that lawsuit. I view it as sort of 99 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 4: the probably what the turning point is for these monkeys, 100 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 4: like this is when we wanted the institution, Like this 101 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 4: is when everything changed. 102 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 3: I think, would you have died if Trump hadn't won 103 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 3: in November. 104 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 4: No, it would have just been slower and harder. But no, 105 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 4: not died. I mean, we didn't die under the harshest 106 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 4: environment of all. I think like, like, you know, well, 107 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 4: the first right, the first three years and a half 108 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 4: was like, well this was just not allowed, right, and 109 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 4: we didn't you know, we kept sort of making progress 110 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 4: all the way up onto legalizing and launching. But then, yeah, 111 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 4: the reality is like the prior government I think was 112 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 4: as hostile as it gets. That it was just not 113 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 4: I mean, they just didn't want it to exist. 114 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 2: So well, you say that, like it's really important to 115 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 2: have a change in the regular landscape, that there was 116 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 2: no way this could have taken and off had this change, 117 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 2: had this not changed. However, there is a competitor that 118 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:10,679 Speaker 2: you can access via VPN fund with stable coins. In theory, 119 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 2: there doesn't even need to be a company that had 120 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 2: been operating for several years. Couldn't it have happened and 121 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 2: could it still happen? That the future of prediction markets 122 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 2: is on chain and essentially outside of the regulatory lands. 123 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 4: I don't necessarily think that on chain off chain is 124 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 4: sort of necessary. It kind of an unregulated regulated like 125 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 4: like on chain doesn't mean illegal, right, Like. 126 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: Sure so, but I think that like. 127 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,679 Speaker 2: But there was a lot of volume on this entity 128 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 2: that had all kinds of things while we're talking about 129 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 2: poly marketing. 130 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:42,919 Speaker 4: So it's not like we couldn't go on chain, right, 131 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 4: It's like this is not a very hard thing to build, right, 132 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 4: And actually, like it's funny, like the first two weeks 133 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 4: of cash we tried to do something on chain and realized, like, well, 134 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 4: again it was a good way to sort of be 135 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 4: maybe like somewhat smart about regular regulation, but not really 136 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 4: because Augur was on chain also, and like that was 137 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 4: also sort of shut down and it was a bunch 138 00:05:58,760 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 4: of issues. 139 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: For us. 140 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 4: We stood very firmly that like, for this to go mainstream, 141 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 4: why you should avoid a VPN, you know, but also like, 142 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 4: how do you have this be legitimized financial markets attract 143 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 4: the type of institutions that would trade. You have a 144 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 4: bunch of institutional partners and now the brokers and actually 145 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 4: truly take this manstream. There was just no way to 146 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 4: do it outside of the like this is the universe 147 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 4: of financial markets. You can now do it outside. You 148 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 4: have to expand it. And if you expand it, then 149 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 4: I think we have a real winner. And I think 150 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 4: the results show like, you know, yes, Bally has a 151 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 4: lot of volume, but like there's not real revenue yet, 152 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 4: there's a lot of wash. Like it's kind of how 153 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 4: do you account for all this stuff? And even if 154 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 4: you account for all of that today we're like something 155 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 4: like three x bigger within a year. 156 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 3: So definitely want to talk about the brokers and the 157 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 3: market makers. But before we do, a very basic question, 158 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 3: but often the basic questions are the most interesting. Can 159 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 3: you walk us through the life cycle of you know, 160 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 3: a binary event contract that gets created on your platform. 161 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 4: It's a great question because that's a hard problem, right, 162 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 4: like because the traditional markets, right the life cycle is 163 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 4: like you know, you have an idea like grain futures 164 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 4: or Onion futures or GPU future your future, your futures, 165 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:09,119 Speaker 4: there is a bad idea. 166 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 3: It's out up a protection. 167 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: I do. 168 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 2: I do think it's a little lame that poly market, 169 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 2: like it hasn't done on your futures because if you're 170 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 2: gonna look, what's the point of on train if you're 171 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 2: not sticking it to the man anyway. 172 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 4: If like the Onion farmers are like finally having like 173 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 4: instrumental hedge, And what's. 174 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 2: The point of crypto if you're not using it to 175 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 2: fight against rule? 176 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 4: I mean, well, the Onion Future's rule is truly absurd. Yeah, yeah, 177 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 4: it's like that's one of those but I guess now 178 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 4: it's maybe kind of funny. 179 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: Maybe we should just keep it. But like. 180 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 4: Or like GEP I mean, or like GPU Future, I mean, 181 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 4: like the point here is like you have something where 182 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 4: the lifetime is infinite. You list the future and the 183 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 4: derivative and it's sort of there forever, and then you 184 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 4: build a liquidity over time and you can take your time. 185 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 4: It takes like usually these things take time, they take 186 00:07:57,520 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 4: years to kind of build up to market them and 187 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 4: build equity. This is different, right, Like this is much 188 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 4: more dynamic. It comes and goes like oftentimes the trend 189 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 4: could be sort of like there for two to three weeks, 190 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 4: sometimes a week, sometimes it's a day, and you have 191 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 4: to much more, much faster, and kind of my mental 192 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 4: model for what this looks like is sort of like 193 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 4: there's an idea that can be from a user, from 194 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 4: a from the news, from a trend from some tweet. 195 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 4: Then there's the listing of the market, and then there's 196 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 4: kind of like from a listing to kind of making 197 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 4: it reasonably liquid and active. So we've we've gone through 198 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 4: like all kind of types of regulatory winters. But the 199 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 4: first time we listed a market, it took us eighteen months. 200 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,839 Speaker 4: That was just for listing and because there's a lot 201 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 4: like the operations attack. These are tickers, right like you 202 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 4: list them like a stock or like a like WTI 203 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 4: crude oil. Now we do it within thirty minutes, and 204 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 4: so we've expanded the territory quite a bit. 205 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 3: And when you list it, does it go to the 206 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:52,839 Speaker 3: CFTC or what. 207 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 4: Basically processes there's like a self certification which basically fight 208 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 4: with the CFC, and they kind of like generally historically 209 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 4: is basically like if you file it and you haven't 210 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 4: engaged with them beforehand. They usually will basically block it. 211 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 4: They'll call you and say stop until we talk, and 212 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,199 Speaker 4: then you do it. But now we've covered so much 213 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 4: territory and build so much technology and like the operations 214 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 4: and the regulator in the loop, that like most new 215 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 4: things that we do actually fit into a bucket that 216 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 4: we've already done. And sometimes there are complete new things, 217 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 4: like right now, the frontier is actually some of the 218 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 4: SEC company related markets. 219 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: I think it's the sort of next frontier. 220 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 4: But we've covered so much grounds now that like most 221 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 4: things are like of a similar flavor. 222 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:49,959 Speaker 2: We've been going this whole time. You know, you talk 223 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 2: about company related stuff, talk about hedging onion futures, maybe 224 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,599 Speaker 2: hedge or sorry, hedging onion prices. Maybe you want to 225 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 2: strip out something related to Tesla car. But let's talk 226 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 2: about the business. How much of this is sports right now? 227 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 2: How big is the gap between volume on a Sunday 228 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 2: versus volume on a Wednesday. 229 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 4: Volume on a Sunday is very very big. But like 230 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 4: it's interesting, I mean, like I'll say a few things, 231 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 4: like the sports side has grown, Like I mean, I'm shocked. 232 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: I'm still shocked. 233 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 4: Like every week, we do a forecast and we beat it, 234 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 4: and like, you know, America likes NFL. 235 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: I mean I don't know. 236 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 4: I mean they like football. I don't know, more than expected, 237 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 4: I guess, but it's a little bit more than that. 238 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 4: Like the thing about sports is, let's say there's two 239 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 4: things going on one there's just a lot of scheduled events. 240 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: Okay, there's just a lot in the week. 241 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 4: But if you compare like a one to one like 242 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 4: a game to like basically anything that Trump does, Trump 243 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 4: will win, like you know, like the in terms of 244 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 4: volume one to one. He like these markets do really 245 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 4: really well, and it could be literally unlike any I 246 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 4: mean anything he does. 247 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: The problem there is like there's not enough schedule, like 248 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: I think there may be over just what percentages on Sunday, 249 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: Like it's not I mean probably ninety percent of sports 250 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: on like a regular weekdays like much lower. 251 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 2: And what's the gap and harm between three acts? 252 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: Maybe? 253 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 4: Okay, okay, so like yeah, I mean NFL Sunday is 254 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 4: like massive, but it's a little bit like it's it's 255 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 4: a littally like asking a question. 256 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: Like okay, well, on election Day, what was the volume? Right? Yeah, 257 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: it's like nine nine elections. 258 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 4: Right, So, so sports is very large, but like we 259 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 4: have other categories now, like like culture, for example, I 260 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 4: think is like growing at a similar rate. That's just 261 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 4: starting from much lower baseline, and our market diversity, our 262 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 4: liquid is just not there yet, whereas sports is much 263 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,079 Speaker 4: more kind of like I would say, like much more 264 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 4: diverse and much more liquid. 265 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 3: Okay, so I'm going to ask the obvious question, I guess, 266 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 3: but why is it not sports betting? 267 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:48,199 Speaker 4: You know, I don't have kind of like as much 268 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 4: a problem with the word betting. I think gambling is 269 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 4: sort of where where I have a problem. I mean, 270 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:53,439 Speaker 4: you know, when like see me launch Water Future is 271 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 4: like three four years ago, and you know I remember 272 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 4: like the headline about that is like, oh you can 273 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 4: now bet on water. It's like all right, I mean, 274 00:11:58,360 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 4: I guess the word betting is you use very sort 275 00:11:59,960 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 4: of loosely. But like I would say two things, the 276 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 4: sort of the legal question and there sort of the 277 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 4: ethic goal is this good for society? 278 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: Question? 279 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 3: And those are we will do both of them, don't worry. 280 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, let's I mean, I guess. So the legal question, 281 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 4: I mean, like our approach has always been sort of 282 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 4: legal and regulated first, like always do it within the 283 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 4: bounds and expand the bounds. So we did this friction market. 284 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 4: Then elections, you know, I mean a year ago right 285 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 4: well ego, even like I mean, people were saying, this 286 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 4: is going to destroy democracy, right like it was it 287 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:30,959 Speaker 4: was the end of the world if we ever got legalized, 288 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 4: and like you know, and like it was and then 289 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 4: we legalized, and it was like super biased and you know, 290 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 4: I was being accused of being more sad agent. 291 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: I don't remember that period, but like it was. 292 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 4: Like I missed no one, like it was like a 293 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 4: whole thing about you know, I worked at pountry and 294 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 4: thus I'm obviously kind of rigging the election. But like 295 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 4: and obviously the vibe has shifted pretty dramatically with the election. 296 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,079 Speaker 4: And because you know, there is some kind of powers 297 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 4: these markets. So when it comes to sports, like on 298 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 4: the legal piece, like it is legal, like doc could 299 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 4: stop it if I wanted to, but the states can't. 300 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 4: That's federal preemption. And that's how it works. And we're 301 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 4: extremely strong legal footing. I mean, Don was mentioning sort 302 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 4: of the I don't think safety is a sleep at 303 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 4: the wheel, Like you know, they have less staff but 304 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:12,839 Speaker 4: they have staff, and the staff is aware of sports 305 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 4: we talked about and it's not like we showed up 306 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 4: one day like hey, surprise, sports markets are here. 307 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 3: Like, isn't Trump's nominee also on your board, the nominee 308 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 3: for CFTC. 309 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 1: Well he was X nominee. 310 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 4: Now, I mean, we'll see, but I mean I don't know, 311 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 4: but I don't know if it's X nominy. 312 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: But like there there's a kind of questions. 313 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 4: But he was not there when this happened, and like 314 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 4: he was, he's still not there actually, so I don't 315 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,199 Speaker 4: think it's very relevant to the question. I think the 316 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 4: change of the administration is well into the question, Like yes, 317 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 4: I mean I think it would have been much more 318 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 4: challenging in the prior administration. 319 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: Like there's no question about that. But the law is 320 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: pretty clear. 321 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 4: I mean, if you read the Commodities Exchange, actor's like 322 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 4: a two prong test and it's is an event kind 323 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 4: of related to war, terrism, assassination, violence, or gaming, and 324 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 4: then there's some sort of illegal stuff that's illegal under 325 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,439 Speaker 4: state or federal law, and so you can fall under 326 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 4: de cart We could debate whether this falls under gaming 327 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 4: or not. 328 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: And there's actually quite a bit of a debate there. 329 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 4: And then the second test, which is like, if it 330 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 4: does fall under dis category, tifcy can make an explicit 331 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 4: determination that is contrary to public interest. Right, so there 332 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 4: is that sort of second standard, yeah, which rais me 333 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 4: second question, which is like, I'm just shaw and believer 334 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 4: in markets, Like I think a market based model for 335 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 4: these market is better than the over the counter sports. 336 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: Book model because the odds are better. 337 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 4: Anyone can be a price better, they don't have to 338 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 4: be a price taker, and the results show like less people, 339 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 4: Like the percentage of people that basically lose on CASHI 340 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 4: is closer to fifty to fifty. 341 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: It's just not the case and like a traditional. 342 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 4: Sports book, And I think that's the sort of argument 343 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 4: that wins it long term, which is like this is 344 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 4: just better, Like you get better prices, more transparency, and 345 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 4: the ability to you know, influence, like basically participate in 346 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 4: a way you can't an a traditional model. 347 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 2: You already said that you don't think that the distinction 348 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 2: is not between trading and betting, the distinction between betting 349 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 2: and gambling. See sort of preempted to question, But there 350 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 2: is this Facebook ad that I saw, and it says 351 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 2: breaking news, sports betting in California is now legal, And 352 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 2: I saw a screenshot but I couldn't find it. I 353 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 2: found it on a blog. But is that like an 354 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 2: actual Kelsey ad that. 355 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 4: Ran, well, we have a very large marketing team and 356 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 4: this is the ad is not there anymore, but like regardless, 357 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 4: I mean that was what you gotta imagine a company 358 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 4: that's like rule one hundred x so like like nothing, you. 359 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 2: Know, you're saying like breaking news, Like I guess what 360 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 2: I'm saying is like we all know what's going on. 361 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 4: Well, the news is breaking. I mean it is legal 362 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 4: to trade ony states. I mean that that's big news, 363 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 4: like you know, yeah, and we are ligitally I mean 364 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 4: you know so, but like I do actually think that, 365 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 4: like I'm not as worried about this, like like you know, 366 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 4: the word gambling is the one that really irks me, 367 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 4: Like I think, you know, because like okay, zero zero 368 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 4: DT options, like like what retail is doing work like 369 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 4: a trillion dollars of all I mean you probably know 370 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 4: the numbers. 371 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: What is it there? 372 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 3: I can't remember, but it's a lot. 373 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, So what is retail doing the like hedging? I mean, right, no, 374 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 4: what exactly are they doing. 375 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 2: They're gambling. 376 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: I don't know about that. 377 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 2: No, I think, I mean, I think it's fun. Like 378 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 2: I agree with like this premise that the well. 379 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 4: Draw line is basically like like it's it's the sort 380 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 4: of thing where like I mean, in nineteen oh five, 381 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 4: I think we talked a little b about this, Like 382 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 4: the Supreme Court there was this whole question of grain 383 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 4: futures like should it be gambling or should it be 384 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 4: a financial instrument? 385 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: And if it was gambling was going to go under 386 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: the bucket shop laws. 387 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 4: And it was this sort of Supreme Court case Chicago 388 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 4: Board of Trade versus Christie, where Supreme Court basically like 389 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 4: ruled in favor of the Chicago War of Trade, which 390 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 4: is like, yes, a lot of people are speculating, but 391 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 4: there's value to these markets beyond the actual speculative. 392 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: You know, activity is taking place. 393 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 4: And then you get into the kind of question of 394 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 4: like what is the standard of the Commodities Exchange Act, 395 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 4: Like should all the activity be hedging? Well, if if 396 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 4: that's the case, then you let's just cancel the whole act. 397 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 4: Let's just stop trading altogether. Because in most markets, including 398 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 4: grain futures, like ninety five percent laws is not hedging 399 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 4: expeculative and I think that's true in the sock market. 400 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 4: And so you know, and then like, okay, well how 401 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 4: do you distinguish and you know, should we take out 402 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 4: the spectator and just keep the hedging. Well, if you 403 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 4: do that, then there's no liquidity and so it doesn't work. 404 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 4: And then how do you even know who's hedging and speculating? 405 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 4: Do you go and check? So so you go into 406 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 4: all these different questions. But like, to me, gambling is 407 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 4: sort of like you create an artificial risk and then 408 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 4: you roll a dice and then you gamble on it, 409 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 4: you know, but trading on whether breaksit happened or not, 410 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 4: that's just like a natural risk. 411 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: That's sort of there. 412 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:28,919 Speaker 4: And then the second question is that and to me, 413 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 4: the even more important one is like the the market 414 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,120 Speaker 4: based mechanism versus sort of like you walk into a casino, 415 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:38,440 Speaker 4: the odds are like structurally stacked against you, and actually 416 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 4: if you start making money, they like, in the best 417 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,880 Speaker 4: case scenario, they basically, you know, stop you from participating, 418 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 4: and that happens in sportsboks and others. And the worst 419 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 4: case scenario, they like kneecap you right, like they and 420 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 4: so that to me is gambling. Like it's like the 421 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 4: revenue of the company is equal to the losses of 422 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 4: its customer and vice versa. I just don't think this 423 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 4: is the same here, Like, that's not how the New 424 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 4: York startion makes its money. It makes it funny based 425 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 4: on fees. Same with Robin, and same with you know, 426 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 4: same with Calci, And so I think there's a big 427 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 4: structural difference. 428 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:08,479 Speaker 3: Well, this was going to be my next question actually, 429 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 3: So setting aside the gambling terminology, part of your argument 430 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 3: here is that even if it is betting, it is 431 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 3: somehow qualitatively different than traditional betting, where you know, you 432 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 3: have a sports bookmaker who's setting all the prices. And 433 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 3: you said earlier that there is more transparency and fairer 434 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 3: pricing and all of that. But then again, if you 435 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 3: look at some of the words that your own company 436 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 3: has used to describe this. You put up job advertisements 437 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 3: saying that you need experts in something similar to sports 438 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 3: book pricing. 439 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: No, that's not quite right. 440 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 4: Now, the job is the sports operations, listing the markets, 441 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 4: how to settle them in all these different things, which 442 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 4: that dynamic is very similar, right, Like you have to 443 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 4: know which markets list, how to list them? What are 444 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 4: the price feeds to kind of like pull up to 445 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 4: pull to basically settle whether it's sort of like this 446 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 4: team one versus the other. That's very different, like you know, 447 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 4: we need I don't know, like someone who is like 448 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 4: an expert and like you know, like programmed to like 449 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 4: you know, bring in traders and figure out how to optimize, 450 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 4: like how to like optimize like losses and things like that. 451 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: Like this is very very different. 452 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 3: Well, talk to us how the prices are actually set then, 453 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 3: And why does you know a platform that ostensibly is 454 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 3: a peer to peer trading platform need market makers at all? 455 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 4: Well, if you listen to new market right now, like 456 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 4: on let's give an example, like even fed rates, you 457 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 4: got to kick started somehow, right, Like the financial markets 458 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 4: need market makers right, and they are peer to Like 459 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 4: financial markets are the ultimate version of peer to peer. 460 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: That's what they are. 461 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,360 Speaker 4: But it's basically a way to kickstart and move shabequity 462 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 4: and actually are our most liquid markets. The more successful 463 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 4: market becomes, the more profitable market becomes, the lower the 464 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 4: percentage of market makers, like whether it's like partners like 465 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 4: Susquehanna and in soitutional market makers and others, and the 466 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 4: higher it is that it's basically organic liquiity. So actually 467 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 4: the more successful it is and the more profitable for us, 468 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 4: and like you know anybody, it's the lower the participation 469 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 4: of these market makers. So the use is actually like 470 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 4: you got to have somebody that starts to bid asked, 471 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 4: like otherwise you put a market and there's nothing, it's 472 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 4: just that, And so you have to kind of break 473 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 4: the chicken in the egg in some ways. You start 474 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 4: with the chicken and you incentivize that chicken so that 475 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 4: the egg comes and then you basically get the flywheel rolling. 476 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 4: So I think it's kind of exactly it's the same 477 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 4: as financial markets. And like a lot of our liquidity 478 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 4: is in the non liquid markets market make it driven 479 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 4: and the liquid markets non market drive. 480 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 2: Let's talk about some non sports stuff and the future, 481 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 2: Like you could sort of futurize anything right when you 482 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,439 Speaker 2: envision it. Could you have could we one day have 483 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 2: a future for every single stock on the extra change, 484 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 2: a perpetual future, a perpetual Tesla future, a perpetual Apple future, 485 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:08,199 Speaker 2: a perpetual like could it be a world that we 486 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 2: live in one day and a perpetual tenure treasury future. 487 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 4: I mean Goshi's everything in Arabic, right, So so you 488 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 4: know the long term vision is like yes, I mean 489 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 4: I just think, like you, we should have a market. 490 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 2: Perpetual a future for private companies SpaceX future. 491 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, like the idea, So I get 492 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 4: like one, I guess general and then specific answer generally 493 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 4: and then specifically. So the general is sort of principles, 494 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 4: Like I think anything that has a different opinion, the 495 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 4: difference of opinion of qualitative opinion, should basically have a 496 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 4: mechanism to resolve that quantitatively. 497 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:39,640 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. 498 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,160 Speaker 4: So like instead of debating subjectively or something like less, 499 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,439 Speaker 4: debate about it objectively and quantitatively, which. 500 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,439 Speaker 1: Is trading, you know, what's something and so. 501 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 4: And then there's some limits, like I think there are 502 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 4: markets that do create bad incentives and I think actually 503 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 4: see A does handle them, and like we we haven't 504 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 4: done these markets. But to your question, like, yes, I 505 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 4: think that's that's probably what the next frontier looks like. 506 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 4: And I think that the concept of security futures has 507 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 4: been like a very kind of like I'd say, it's 508 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 4: been a very exciting concept for that I mean even 509 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 4: pre Calci. It's not like we're But I think the 510 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 4: SCF T C SEC relationship historically has been a big 511 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 4: part of the bottleneck because if you're on the SEC side, 512 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 4: you can't red don't relydo futures, and if you're on 513 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,400 Speaker 4: CFC side, your futures that you don't do securities. 514 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 1: And then you have this question like should I get 515 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:21,880 Speaker 1: reggae by both? 516 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 4: I mean, you already have one that's sort of I 517 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 4: mean you're like daily in your operations already very tough. 518 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:30,360 Speaker 1: Now you're adding a second one. 519 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 4: And it doesn't scale linearly, it's scale its scale sort 520 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 4: of quadratically, and so it's been really tough historically. But 521 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 4: maybe now in this environment, I think it might be possible, 522 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 4: and maybe maybe we'll figure it out on Monday. 523 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: So we'll see on Monday. 524 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 3: Okay, Can I go back to the market makers for 525 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 3: a second, because this is an area where I think 526 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 3: people have a lot of questions, But what are the 527 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 3: actual obligations of market makers on your platform? And you 528 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 3: talked about how in the beginning, you know, maybe you 529 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:59,640 Speaker 3: have this really esoteric contract about throwing rubber objects onto 530 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 3: basket ball courts or whatever it is. 531 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: We don't have that, but but you yeah, the other 532 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: that one, the CFC would block. 533 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 3: You know, how do market makers decide what contracts to 534 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,399 Speaker 3: actually support initially? And are they obligated to come in 535 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 3: and provide for everything? 536 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: No? 537 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 4: Because well not everything no, because like well if well 538 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 4: you have fair access sort of requirements and a CFC 539 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,439 Speaker 4: reggae exchange, so you have to have rules that like 540 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 4: basically are generally like accessible by anybody in a certain 541 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:33,719 Speaker 4: sort of like trans or two or whatever. But like 542 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 4: if a market maker wants to come and trade on CASHI, 543 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:37,479 Speaker 4: they could do that, and they have no obligations they 544 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 4: can make, they could take, they could do whatever they want. Generally, 545 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 4: what happens is like you know, if a market maker 546 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 4: wants like okay, but then how do you kind of 547 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 4: incentivize equity? Then you could sort of say, like okay, 548 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 4: maybe you rebate you some fees if you basically commit 549 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 4: to obligations, and the obligations the way they look like 550 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 4: is like if you make on the fed market. So 551 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 4: that's an actual specific example, like you put like seventy 552 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 4: five thousand contracts up on each side within like three 553 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 4: to four cent spread, and you have like ninety eight percent. 554 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: Availability, so you're pretty much there. 555 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 4: Every time we kind of probe you could, for example, 556 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 4: get your fees that you pay, rebate it so you 557 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:10,959 Speaker 4: don't have to pay. So that's kind of like actually 558 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 4: our most common type. I mean, this is pretty much 559 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,120 Speaker 4: like marketing program I love them. Are public and people 560 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,159 Speaker 4: can sign up to which markets they want to participate it. 561 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 4: So some people sign up to economics, some people do politics, 562 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 4: some people do sports, some people do a combo of both. 563 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 4: A lot of people do financials. And the reason you 564 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 4: want that actually is because without any sort of structure, 565 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 4: then no one is going to commit to anything, right 566 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 4: Like then people will only do it when it's like 567 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 4: advantageous for them, and they won't do it when it's 568 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,719 Speaker 4: maybe like a novel market where we need to kind 569 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 4: of bootshop liquidity and so on. So you have to 570 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 4: figure out the sort of setup incentive, especially in the beginning, 571 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 4: and those over time go down as the market goes 572 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 4: more and more liquid as you need less. 573 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: And less of them. 574 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 3: And are the rebates and incentives and I guess the 575 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 3: information is that equal for all the market makers on 576 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 3: the platform, because you also have depends. 577 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 5: On the abligations. Okay, so you're like, so finish the sentence. Well, 578 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 5: I was going to ask about kt Yeah. Yeah, so 579 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 5: people ask a lot about Cashi trade. So fully it's 580 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 5: fully information, like we've operated for five years. It's fully 581 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 5: solid Informationally it's like run independently and so on and 582 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 5: so forth. What I can say, like emphatically, Katie has 583 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 5: absolutely no advantages like in any way, shape or form 584 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 5: of other marketmakers with market participants. And we've always said that, 585 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 5: you know where we don't think of this as a 586 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,399 Speaker 5: flank because it's true and the safety audits us and 587 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 5: they see the numbers and the numbers you know, are factual. 588 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 5: They're now the best performing trader, let alone marketmaker on 589 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 5: Calshi by orders of magnitude. 590 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 3: Like you know, I leave it that they're successful because 591 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:35,959 Speaker 3: they're not that successful. 592 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 4: They're doing okay, I would say, And it's it's fine 593 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 4: they haven't. I mean they you know, try to kind 594 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 4: of like booch op to quit in some of the 595 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 4: markets are harder and so on and so forth, and 596 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 4: that's a good thing, like otherwise these markets would sort 597 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 4: of not be there. But say for sure is they 598 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 4: don't have any privileges or you know, benefits out aside 599 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 4: from anybody else, aside from SIG. Aside from we have 600 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 4: some small teams two three people that sign up to 601 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 4: marketmaker programs. Some of these teams are actually beating all 602 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 4: the other market institutional including ours. 603 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 1: Institional usually better than ours. 604 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 4: But like what we do is like there's like tiers, 605 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 4: So if you kind of like buy by certain conditions, 606 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 4: you can. 607 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:10,679 Speaker 1: Get more rebates. 608 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 4: Then if you do lower conditions and less rebates, and 609 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 4: those tiers accessible to anybody that basically would. 610 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: Do the conditions uniformly. 611 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 4: One because regulatory wise we have to and then two 612 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 4: otherwise like people didn't trust the sort of marketplace. 613 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 1: So yeah, there's. 614 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 4: No, no, none, Like we got accused a lot about 615 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 4: a lot of different things, you know, but like that's normal. 616 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 4: I mean there's like a lot of incentives and interests 617 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 4: that on the other side of this equation for specifically 618 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 4: now sports. At the time it was elections, but I 619 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 4: think that kind of like we let the truth mean 620 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 4: revert over time. 621 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,160 Speaker 2: So obviously you have these sort of legacy market makers 622 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 2: who are now participating on your platform. You mentioned Susquehana, 623 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 2: et cetera. Have you seen like I'm very curious about 624 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:55,919 Speaker 2: whether we'll see legacy institutions become actual sort of like 625 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 2: use your markets for actual head dream purposes. Now, I'm 626 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 2: sure there's some around the election, but some of these 627 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 2: other things, Like I'm curious, for example, do you know 628 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 2: other hedge funds that might have a particular trade on 629 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 2: and they want to hedge against the possibility of a 630 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 2: negative NFP print because they think that a bad jobs 631 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 2: report is going to bust some trade like that is 632 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 2: the risk, or maybe a sort of hot CPI trade, 633 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 2: et cetera. Do you see institutions using these markets yet 634 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 2: to actually take hedging or positional trades yet? 635 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 4: So, yes, But it's kind of a size thing, right, 636 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,920 Speaker 4: Like the main bottleneck is basically equity, And it goes 637 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:36,159 Speaker 4: back to the same question. It's like you have to 638 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 4: incentivize more and more equity over time so that like 639 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 4: you get the larger sizes like a typical I mean, 640 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 4: the way I think about it is like there's a 641 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 4: small prop shops and the smaller shops like those are 642 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 4: doing some and like because you can take millions of 643 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 4: the querity on CASHI, it's not that difficult. Now depends 644 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 4: on the markets and so on. But then if you 645 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 4: get to serve of the buyside ferns, like the larger yeah, 646 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,640 Speaker 4: you know, like you know, we're just getting the top 647 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 4: ten fifteen on the street, ten to fifteen hatches on 648 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 4: the street, and then after that corporation is like then 649 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 4: you're talking like the minimum minimum size like for even 650 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 4: two care as eight figures, but probably fifty to one hundred. 651 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 4: And so I don't think liquity is there quite yet, 652 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 4: Like elections start flirting with that sort of level, and 653 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 4: we've seen some, but like we don't see that, Like 654 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 4: it's just a matter of time for liquity to build 655 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 4: up for the kind of like a deep institutional use 656 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 4: case to basically start kicking in. And I think I 657 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 4: see this sort overin the next two three years. Like 658 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:31,399 Speaker 4: I think that's going to be a very big part 659 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 4: of CASHU. It's always in part of the division because 660 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 4: you you create a marketplace where you can price anything. 661 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 4: You know, what you're doing at that point is you're 662 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 4: pricing risk. You're pricing any risk sort of happening in 663 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 4: the wild, and then when you price the risk, it's 664 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 4: much easier to create the liquidity. The same way it's 665 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 4: easy to create liquity for the option market today that 666 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 4: it's much higher for some esoteric event as there's more 667 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 4: and more price benchmarks than you can provide more liquidity. 668 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 4: And then after that you can basically red cater to 669 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 4: the sort of institutional risk transfer use case, which I 670 00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 4: think is kind of where the term really expands long. 671 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 3: I mean, I assume in addition to talking to regulators, 672 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 3: a big chunk of your time is spent going out 673 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 3: and talking to institutional players, either on the market making 674 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 3: side or maybe buyside, who might one day potentially be 675 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 3: interested in actually using this as a hedge. What are 676 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 3: those conversations actually, Like, you know, you have this partnership 677 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 3: with Suskahanna, Now what are the concerns that they lay 678 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 3: out when it comes to this new business and what 679 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,479 Speaker 3: are the sort of I don't I guess enticements that 680 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 3: you offer. 681 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: So I would say, like, right now, it's a lot 682 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: more just like learning. It's not. 683 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 4: I say, like, hey, our book is much more like 684 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 4: let's we learn, we learn, and then we figure out 685 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 4: how to build right product and then people come. It 686 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 4: usually works that way, not sort of like oh like. 687 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 3: Did Sufkahana did they approach you then we have. 688 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: It took a while. 689 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 4: I mean, like we had a reationship like way kind 690 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 4: of when we're starting like thinking about the company and 691 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 4: this we have issued with a lot of the sort 692 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 4: of institutional payers and like marketmakers, and I mean I 693 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 4: worked at CYDA before, but like I don't know if 694 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 4: like we I mean, we just had relationship and we 695 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 4: started talking, and you know they see the vision, Like 696 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 4: so s Quhanda really believes, I mean, Jeffy has really 697 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 4: believes in the vision of sort of like this idea 698 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 4: of like have some skin in the game to forecast 699 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,479 Speaker 4: any question of the future instead of debating about it. 700 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 4: And he's always off prediction markets. So there's a little 701 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 4: bit of a natural fit there. But like going back 702 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 4: to the kind of institutional like what. 703 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: We learned is like. 704 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 4: It's there right a lot of them, whether they price 705 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 4: these specific events like NFP specifically or like a CEO 706 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 4: leaving a company specifically, or or they're worried about it, 707 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 4: like even if they don't price it specifically, but they're 708 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 4: sort of like this is something that I'm worried about 709 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 4: on my thesis, Like I have a thesis, but these 710 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 4: are some of the external factors that could. 711 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: Like screw it up. 712 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 4: That's a real thing, and like they would use it 713 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 4: for hedging. And I think the requirements of like okay, 714 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 4: some of them that are like solved, like compliance regulatory 715 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,239 Speaker 4: like that, you know you have a clearinghouse regulated all 716 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 4: the kind of usual stuff. But then there's liquidity like 717 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 4: how much size can I take for it to be 718 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 4: worth it for me to kind of allocate a desk 719 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 4: and you know, put resources into it. And then the 720 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 4: second one is like margins, which like you know today 721 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 4: it's fully cash callarer on CALSHI, So if you want 722 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 4: to trade one hundred dollars you have to put it up. 723 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: That's very difficult for like let's say a citadel. 724 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 2: Well, I was gonna ask, actually, do you anticipate on 725 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 2: the road map sort of byside traders when there is 726 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 2: perhaps if it happens sufficient liquidity, will they be trading 727 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 2: on CALCI or will it be something they trade through 728 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 2: their prime broker or their futures broken cabo? But do 729 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 2: you like are you in talks with the brokers? 730 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's the same exact sort of like reason means 731 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 4: like what do you need basically like and how does 732 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 4: it work. But yes, I mean the prime brokerges are 733 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,959 Speaker 4: very important because like you get you basically get like 734 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 4: they have the full portfolio, so you can get a 735 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 4: bunch of margining benefits if you kind of do it 736 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 4: all with one prime broker. And that's why you usually 737 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 4: prime brokers are the gateway into financial markets. Yeah, and 738 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 4: the same way as a broken strategy for retail, right 739 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 4: like with the robin and Mebo and some of the 740 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 4: other brokers. It's very similar actually, because you have your 741 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 4: portfolio with the prime broker and then like as you're 742 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 4: thinking about your portfolio is like, hey, I could add 743 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 4: on a hatch. It's much easier for me to do 744 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 4: it through my prime broker then do it on a 745 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 4: separate platform. 746 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 2: But by the way, it's pretty crazy if you go 747 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,239 Speaker 2: to the app store and you just like look at 748 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 2: robin Hood. It's the first thing is like the football, 749 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 2: the image of the football right already because yeah, because 750 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 2: they're trading through you. Anyway, just an interesting. 751 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 3: I mean, well on that point, I mean there's a 752 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 3: social utility question here, right, Like if I download robin Hood, okay, yes, 753 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 3: I could get into zero or one day options and 754 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 3: we can talk about the social utility there. But maybe 755 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 3: I'm going to invest in an actual stock that generates 756 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 3: some income. But now I'm seeing ads for football and 757 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 3: sports betting, and I don't know. I'm sure there are 758 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 3: some old fashioned people out there potentially like me, who 759 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 3: would say, who would say, like, what does this do? 760 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 3: What's the value? 761 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: Do you think that? 762 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 4: Do you think that's sports? Like let's even forget about. 763 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 3: Like I mean, first of all, I don't like sports. 764 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 4: But well, I mean but like you know, I mean 765 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 4: a lot of people love love sports, right and and 766 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 4: like you know, I don't know that like my job 767 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 4: to view with these things. I mean, I'm a free 768 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 4: markets person, like you know, building a company where the 769 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 4: name is you know, we want to have markets for everything. 770 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 4: So so I'm much more in the camp of, like 771 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 4: you know, you figure out what people want to do 772 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 4: and figure out how to do it in a safe, 773 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 4: equitable and fair manner, like you know, make sure that 774 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 4: like it's done with fair rules of the role for 775 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 4: everybody to participate. And they want to get smart and 776 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 4: do their own research, and if they don't, that's on them, 777 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 4: and they figure it out and and add some sort 778 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 4: of text and balances around it to make sure it's 779 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,479 Speaker 4: safe and there's customer protection. But I's tetly like I'm 780 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 4: a strong believer that, you know, sort of the job 781 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 4: of regulators should not be dictating what people should do 782 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 4: with their money or their lives. Like I'm a very 783 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 4: very strong, like staunch sort of opponent of that sort 784 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 4: of view of what a regulator should do. 785 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: And I think that fits there. 786 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 4: I mean in some ways, maybe that's like like if 787 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 4: you look at romod, like there's all these these choices now, 788 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 4: and like it's a bit weird to me that, Like 789 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 4: the decision here is sort of like don't let them 790 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 4: make the choice, Like if they want to invest in great, 791 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 4: then if they want to do football, then also great. 792 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: I mean, and the decision. 793 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 4: That feels weird to me, which is like hide that 794 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,399 Speaker 4: option because the fifty year old or thirty year old man, 795 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 4: so Robin needs me to figure out what to do 796 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 4: with their money, right like, and so that to me, 797 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 4: that's always felt weird to me. And I think that's 798 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 4: where financial regulation has sort of like gone too far 799 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,280 Speaker 4: in the last I would even call it regulation. 800 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 1: I'm very pro regulation. 801 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 4: We chose to be regulated up front, right, So, but 802 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 4: it's sort of like I would say, like I would say, 803 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 4: I mean, people are like what law fair but whatever, 804 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 4: like the financial regulars. 805 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:35,760 Speaker 1: I think I've taken it too far in that dimension. 806 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 2: So, as we've mentioned a couple of times, there's this 807 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,720 Speaker 2: big meeting in DC Nextrik, there's gonna be a round table. Incidentally, 808 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 2: so Tracy mentioned earlier in the day we interviewed Terry 809 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 2: Duffy for an episode that'll be out in a couple 810 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 2: of weeks. And I guess you haven't met. He said, 811 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 2: you've never met, but I guess you're gonna meet on Monday. Bro, Like, 812 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 2: what should we ask Trek? And he said, I think 813 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 2: if I'm getting this right, he said that Kelsey characterized 814 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 2: itsself as CFTC approved, and he says, it's not that 815 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:13,799 Speaker 2: it's instead not CFTC banned that actually because it's the 816 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 2: self listing are you CFTC approved and or is it 817 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 2: just that the CFTC has not said no. 818 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 4: Well, it's actually incorrect. I mean, I don't know, you know, 819 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 4: it's like I mean, I'll be Terry Vice meaning Terry 820 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 4: I mean Terry's. 821 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: Legend, but like. 822 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 4: We got a license and then a second one. So exhanged, 823 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 4: and then the clearinghouse and then the broker license. So 824 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 4: the exchange was like in twenty twenty in the in 825 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 4: the clearinghouse is twenty twenty four, and then the broker 826 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:44,359 Speaker 4: one was in twenty twenty five. There's all approvals, I mean, 827 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 4: it's not like you know. 828 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 3: But for instance, the individual contracts that go up to 829 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,280 Speaker 3: the CFTC, are those each getting approved. 830 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 4: Well obviously not actually dissip right like, and we had 831 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 4: to see over it and it was we were clearly 832 00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 4: right on the log given that we won the district 833 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 4: and then the in the appeals court. So maybe there's 834 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 4: a separate dimension here, which is also the regular is 835 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 4: not always right. But you know, there's a whole other 836 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 4: thing there. But self certification is a regime which by 837 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 4: the way, CME is also operated within and they've you know, 838 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,359 Speaker 4: so from from that specific perpecive for each market. Yes, 839 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 4: it's not that every market goes through a perspectus like 840 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:21,360 Speaker 4: and the SEC and then gets approved. 841 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: It's actually like a disapproval regime. 842 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, But the CFC has authority to stay things and 843 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 4: it's a very broad authority. Right, So maybe it's a 844 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 4: good question to see f to see because you know, 845 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:31,399 Speaker 4: I can't speak on their. 846 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 3: Behalf, but you can ask them on Monday. 847 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know if they'll be on that table. 848 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 1: But you know what is the uh, well, we talk 849 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: to safety all the. 850 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:43,759 Speaker 2: Time, so you know, obviously polymarket is a major competitor 851 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 2: to you. What do you see as like, what's your 852 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 2: vision for what is traded on chain and what are 853 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 2: like could you imagine you know, we just talked to 854 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 2: Don He said in hit he could see in five 855 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 2: years almost everything being on chain, Like do you see that? 856 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: Yeah? Maybe? I mean, well it's interesting because Pallly, now 857 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 1: I was they're doing. 858 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 4: So there's kind of the on Chaine strategy and then 859 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 4: the kind of what we did, the regulated you know, 860 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 4: normal clearinghouse like reggae clearinghouse strategy, and like now they're 861 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 4: doing this sort of they're pivoting to ours basically. That's 862 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 4: that's and so our view, jomally is like, well, it's 863 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,320 Speaker 4: a pretty positive signed for our strategy, probably right, because 864 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 4: you know, but but. 865 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 3: Even setting a certain top, well, my boy is like 866 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 3: they're regulated. 867 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,279 Speaker 4: To me, it's a regulated like front. It's more so okay, 868 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 4: there are a lot of benefits. I really believe that, 869 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,279 Speaker 4: and I think the being on shape, yeah, because like 870 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 4: one of the ones that I'm less interested in is 871 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 4: sort of like skirting regulation like that. But but I 872 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 4: think that like there's a number of things which is 873 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,399 Speaker 4: like my mental model for it is is a bit 874 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,840 Speaker 4: like you know, the banking rails were set up in 875 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:46,959 Speaker 4: the kind of early twentieth century. It's like JP Morgan 876 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 4: a bunch of his friends are like, hey, how do 877 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,359 Speaker 4: we dominate this whole thing? And you know, they set 878 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 4: up a bunch of rags and then they close the 879 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 4: door behind them, and that was sort of that, and 880 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 4: there's a much more complexity to that. But to me, 881 00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 4: this sort of whole on chain thing is is it 882 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 4: imagine a bit like having given that problem to a 883 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:08,959 Speaker 4: bunch of smart, like like hard working developers without any 884 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 4: limits and let them build. Right, Obviously, that's gonna be 885 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:14,480 Speaker 4: there's a lot of good that's gonna come out of that, 886 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 4: and then there's gonna be some bad that comes out 887 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 4: of that, obviously, But like to me, it's like, well, 888 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 4: there's a lot of liquity on chain today, so that's 889 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 4: something that we should access in at some point. 890 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 1: Two. 891 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 4: I think the clearing side there's a lot of benefits 892 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 4: for you know how, like you have to do no ovation, 893 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 4: and you have to do immute immutability, and usually right 894 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 4: now we do it from a like operational legal perspective, 895 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 4: and obviously there's some tech, but aunchin really helps with that. 896 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 1: That's like basically what it's designed to do. 897 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 4: And so over time, like I think, I hope as 898 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,480 Speaker 4: sort of regulators get more permissive, like I see some 899 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,799 Speaker 4: parts of clearing going on chain where you know it 900 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 4: enables some of these use is, and then also more transplancy, 901 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 4: like the trades and the transactions are all transplants for 902 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 4: everybody to see, and then people can build interesting like 903 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 4: UIs and interesting projects on top of that us having 904 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,839 Speaker 4: to sort of this whole permissionless sort of concept. 905 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 1: And so I'm very bullish on it. 906 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:05,920 Speaker 4: I do agree with Don actually that like over the 907 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 4: next four or five years, you see comedies like Robinhood 908 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 4: like companies, like a lot of companies are leaning in. 909 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 4: I think, well, Cawshi is also leaning in. So I'm 910 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 4: pretty scorry about it. 911 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 3: So obviously the trajectory of your business has changed enormously 912 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,920 Speaker 3: just over the past year less than a year. Really, 913 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 3: if you were thinking about it now today as we 914 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 3: sit here, what's the biggest I guess blockage to further 915 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:28,720 Speaker 3: growth for Kushi? 916 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,319 Speaker 1: You know, right now it's the question I haven't been 917 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:33,879 Speaker 1: real thinking about. 918 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:35,839 Speaker 4: It's been growing so much right now, it's like all 919 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,719 Speaker 4: about how do we like not break basically because like 920 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 4: I mean honestly, like we grew way more than we 921 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,440 Speaker 4: could have possibly imagined, even in the most bullish scenarios, 922 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 4: even both post winning the election lawsuit every like, even 923 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,279 Speaker 4: like December twenty twenty four with like foregus for twenty 924 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,760 Speaker 4: twenty five, like, there's nowhere near what it is today. 925 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 1: So and it's interesting because we're not. 926 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,239 Speaker 4: It feels like we're sort of like halfway through, like 927 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 4: there's still just the current structure. I think we're not 928 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 4: even halfway through. Like we have more brokers. We have 929 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 4: very deep pipe on a broker, so that's great. And 930 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 4: more sports. I think it's the frontier is the sec thing. 931 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 4: So I think it's like more markets, like and I 932 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 4: think we have a lot of what we want. I 933 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:18,759 Speaker 4: think over time is like how do we start doing 934 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:20,240 Speaker 4: company with dated prediction markets? 935 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 1: And we're very excited about that. 936 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:23,799 Speaker 2: I just have one last question, and it's kind of 937 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 2: a softball. But like after years of fighting all these 938 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 2: different battles, regulatory battles, should states, et cetera. Like how 939 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 2: good does it feel? It must feel really good to 940 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 2: actually kind of know that the business is real and 941 00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 2: have these battles. Yeah, I mean, just like describe that feeling. 942 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 4: It's weird because I don't know if I feel that 943 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 4: it's about this year than last year. I mean, Juan 944 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:47,719 Speaker 4: and I whly started the company. We really build a 945 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:49,720 Speaker 4: company around. I love this book. So have you ever 946 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 4: read the book? Like the score takes care of itself. 947 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,280 Speaker 4: I don't think it's a great book, but life like everything, honestly, 948 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 4: Like I really it's just you know, like so John 949 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,440 Speaker 4: Woden was of basketball coaches, like most legendary about I mean, 950 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,800 Speaker 4: the whole thing was always about like never mentioned winning, 951 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 4: but training the teams like folks in the process and 952 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,480 Speaker 4: like day in day out, like just fall in love 953 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 4: with the training and like if you do, you just 954 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:12,320 Speaker 4: start winning. 955 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 1: And like I I would say a few things. 956 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,839 Speaker 4: I see, these things are sort of there's good times 957 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:19,040 Speaker 4: in bad times for all companies, and so yes, right 958 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 4: now we're having a pretty great time like as good 959 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,879 Speaker 4: as it gets for a company, But I don't feel 960 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 4: that different. I think it's just like solutions bring new problems, 961 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:29,320 Speaker 4: and like then you focus on the new problems. 962 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:30,239 Speaker 2: It would be so much. 963 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,319 Speaker 4: The one person I will say, the one part I 964 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 4: feel pretty good about is winning the election lawsuit, like 965 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 4: that one because we were so there was some pretty 966 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:43,440 Speaker 4: big time vindication there. Like I think we were, you know, 967 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,640 Speaker 4: because imagine like in twenty twenty, like three going off 968 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 4: to our board, you know, like Seicoya and munch of 969 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 4: others and like, hey, like, yeah, we're not really figuring 970 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 4: this out. It's been two years of like you know, 971 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,840 Speaker 4: pouring money into this and like we're you know, and 972 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:56,759 Speaker 4: nothing is working. We lost half of our team over 973 00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,759 Speaker 4: it and like company might die, and actually what we're 974 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 4: going to it was a good triple down and sew 975 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 4: our regulator now, so you know that was they looked 976 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,120 Speaker 4: at us and they're like, well that that that doesn't 977 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,399 Speaker 4: feel right, you know, like and we still went through 978 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 4: with it and like it ended up being absolutely the 979 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:14,360 Speaker 4: right decision. So that I think maybe like October seventh, 980 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:16,680 Speaker 4: the day we won the election lawsuit, was probably the 981 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:17,839 Speaker 4: day I felt happiest. 982 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 3: What did you do when drop the lawsuit? 983 00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:23,480 Speaker 1: That was not that important. It was the one where 984 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 1: we the appeals. 985 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, that was important because well I first screamed a 986 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,480 Speaker 4: lot and like we just like you know, all got 987 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,000 Speaker 4: hit faced in the office and like you know, you know, 988 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:34,760 Speaker 4: it was amazing. 989 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:35,799 Speaker 1: But then you know, then. 990 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,080 Speaker 4: We got back to work because were anxious about set, 991 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,880 Speaker 4: like you know, launching the thing. Yeah, that was a 992 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:43,880 Speaker 4: brutal three weeks because we had to ramp up really aggressively, 993 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:45,799 Speaker 4: and I mean we really went from we really grew 994 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,440 Speaker 4: one hundred x overnight, Like it was crazy. And so 995 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:51,560 Speaker 4: that was the three weeks away. I worked the hardest 996 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:53,600 Speaker 4: in my entire life. I was sleeping in the office, 997 00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,080 Speaker 4: Like you know, I was like I was given this chance, 998 00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 4: like we have to basically like you know, utilize it 999 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,000 Speaker 4: to the fullest. And it was and we didn't charge 1000 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,239 Speaker 4: He's on the election market. I know, if you knew that, 1001 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 4: it was an intentional decision because like the KPI here 1002 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,480 Speaker 4: is we've got to show the word that these markets work. Yeah, 1003 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:09,360 Speaker 4: and it's done safely and nothing that is going to 1004 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:11,480 Speaker 4: happen and democracy is going to be totally fine. And 1005 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:13,560 Speaker 4: actually and you'll see we're announcing a few things with 1006 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,080 Speaker 4: some some big news organizations pretty soon. What we'll see 1007 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 4: the shift that's happened in culture where like the level 1008 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,040 Speaker 4: of embracing that's happening with prediction markets now, it's that's 1009 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:22,719 Speaker 4: that's pretty. 1010 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:22,960 Speaker 1: Nice to see. 1011 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 3: Plus south Park and south Park. 1012 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, Trek Mansur, thank you than so much. 1013 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:32,480 Speaker 1: Thanks having thanks lot, Thanks so much. Guys. 1014 00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 2: That was our conversation with Turik Monsour, recorded live on 1015 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:37,320 Speaker 2: stage in Chicago. 1016 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,839 Speaker 3: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway and. 1017 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,480 Speaker 2: I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Star Wart. 1018 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:47,000 Speaker 2: Follow our producers Carmen Rodriguez at Carman armand dash O 1019 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:49,960 Speaker 2: Bennett at Dashboard in Keil Brooks at Keil Brooks. 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