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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. And I'm Josh, and

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Speaker 2: there's Chuck, and Jerry's here, too. And we are going

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Speaker 2: to do the opposite of making you bored with this

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Speaker 2: episode on boredom.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Before we get going, though, we want to

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Speaker 1: recommend a podcast to our listeners from our always friend.

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Speaker 1: And former colleague.

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Speaker 2: Forever friend.

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Speaker 1: Forever. Yeah, he's our FF. But former colleague. We used

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Speaker 1: to work with Mangesh Hadakadur at HowStuffWorks. And I'm not

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Speaker 1: lying when I think we'll all agree, because Jerry's listening too,

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Speaker 1: that Mangesh is one of the sweetest, sweethearts, kindest, most intelligent,

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Speaker 1: nicest dudes of all time. And that's reason enough to

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Speaker 1: listen to anything that he does.

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Speaker 2: He's a high quality person.

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Speaker 1: He's the best man gets just great. So he has

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Speaker 1: a show out called how to live forever, which is

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Speaker 1: not like, here's how you live forever. It's more like

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Speaker 1: trying to understand this sort of movement that's going around

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Speaker 1: of people that want to try and like extend life

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Speaker 1: into like, you know, hundreds of years or forever, which

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Speaker 1: is super stuff. You should know listeners alley, I think.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And it's a great show. He wants to recommend in particular,

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Speaker 1: if you want to just give it a shot, he

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Speaker 1: said the third and the fifth episodes are really standouts. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I listened to episode five because it sounded super interesting.

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Speaker 1: And it is, buddy, because in episode five, Mangesh kind

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Speaker 1: of goes investigator to track down this startup that's trying

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Speaker 1: to create brain dead clones for billionaires so that when

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Speaker 1: you get to be like, you know, 90 years old,

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Speaker 1: you can do a body replacement and transfer like this

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Speaker 1: is real Futurama kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: To transfer the head of a billionaire to a younger body.

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Speaker 1: And this is actually happening. Peter Thiel is a funder

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Speaker 1: of this thing. So is ARPA-H, and it's just kind

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Speaker 1: of crazy stuff. So that's episode five. But the podcast

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Speaker 1: is How to Live Forever, and it's awesome.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and Mengesh is super interesting and entertaining. And if

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Speaker 2: you're not quite convinced of this Mengesh guy, put this

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Speaker 2: in your pipe and smoke it. He, along with another

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Speaker 2: colleague of ours, Will Pearson, Co-founded Mental Floss back in

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Speaker 2: the day when he was in college.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, man.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 1: That's all you need to know. Yeah, Man Gush is

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Speaker 1: the best, so check out How to Live Forever. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to get all corporate here and say wherever you

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Speaker 1: get your podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Ooh, is it guaranteed human?

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Speaker 1: I think so.

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Speaker 2: Okay, great. Okay, Chuck, so we're talking about boredom. I

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Speaker 2: found it exceedingly hard to concentrate while I was studying this.

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Speaker 2: Did you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I hated to say it, but it was kind

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Speaker 1: of boring.

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Speaker 2: I actually liked it. Oh, really? Yes, I did. At

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Speaker 2: first I was like, this is kind of boring. It's

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Speaker 2: very dry. But if you put it all together, it

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Speaker 2: actually boredom did become a little more interesting to me

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Speaker 2: than it had been before. Let me just say it

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Speaker 2: like that. How about that?

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Speaker 1: Well, that's good.

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Speaker 2: But it's like when we researched sushi or yawning or whatever,

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Speaker 2: I wanted sushi. I couldn't stop yawning.

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Speaker 1: Right, right.

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Speaker 2: Like reading about boredom actually makes you like it's hard

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Speaker 2: to concentrate, which is one of the traits of boredom.

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Speaker 2: I just thought that was very interesting. For sure.

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Speaker 1: If you want to talk about just how boredom is

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Speaker 1: sort of defined, it is the experience of wanting to

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Speaker 1: engage in something that is like satisfying to you, but

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Speaker 1: not being able to and being left in a state.

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Speaker 1: In this case, it's called an adaptive state.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Where, you know, you don't have an optimal energy level.

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Speaker 1: There may be some discomfort. This is a big part

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Speaker 1: of boredom is it urges new action because, as we'll see,

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Speaker 1: just being bored can lead to you doing really dumb

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Speaker 1: things just so something is happening.

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Speaker 2: If you put all that together, man, it really just

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Speaker 2: sounds like you need a Snickers.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe so, because boredom, you know, it's boredom definitely

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Speaker 1: urges you to pursue something different than what's going on.

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Speaker 1: That's sort of the whole point behind it.

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Speaker 2: Yes. Now, whether what you pursue is up to you

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Speaker 2: and it can be negative, it can be positive, it

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Speaker 2: can be really bad for you. It can actually be great.

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Speaker 2: And this is like this is like it's really well studied.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the things I appreciated about it

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Speaker 2: is the philosophers starting in the 19th century with Schopenhauer.

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Speaker 2: And then Nietzsche, like they really thought a lot about

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Speaker 2: boredom and what boredom was. And they created a great

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Speaker 2: basis for it that science then took over. And science

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Speaker 2: has done a really good job of investigating it and

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Speaker 2: explaining it, too. And I love topics like that because

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Speaker 2: we cover so much stuff. Like I like it when

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Speaker 2: it's like no one understands this and here's this theory

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Speaker 2: and here's that theory. Right. Topics like that. But I

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Speaker 2: also like topics where it's all like, oh, all the

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Speaker 2: components are here and we can put them together. Now

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Speaker 2: I understand it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. I agree, too. If there's boredom happening,

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Speaker 1: that means there's obviously nothing new or stimulating happening. There

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Speaker 1: may be a time distortion, like things are really dragging

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Speaker 1: on and it might feel meaningless. And you mentioned Schopenhauer.

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Speaker 1: He put forth that boredom and pain are like the

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Speaker 1: twin poles of life. And you just kind of swing

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Speaker 1: between those.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Nietzsche came along and he was like, I agree. He said, yes, and.

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Speaker 2: I think boredom can actually lead to creativity. I don't

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Speaker 2: think it's all bad. And he went on to say,

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Speaker 2: which I think is going a little far, that God

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Speaker 2: created humans because God was bored. OK. It's a little

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Speaker 2: it's like, how are you going to prove that? And

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Speaker 2: he said, I'm a philosopher. I don't have to prove

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Speaker 2: a thing.

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Speaker 1: Emily has always and I've since gotten on board when,

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Speaker 1: you know, when you have a kid. you know, I'm bored,

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Speaker 1: I'm bored. You hear that a lot. And she, from

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Speaker 1: the very beginning with Ruby was like, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: what's on the other side of boredom, creativity. And, you know,

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Speaker 1: Ruby's tired of hearing that, but that's a good way

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Speaker 1: to handle it with kids is, and they say to like,

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Speaker 1: you know, don't hand them something to do. Like you're bored. Oh, here,

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Speaker 1: do this and do this and like try and solve

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Speaker 1: their problem. You're like, solve it yourself, go find something

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Speaker 1: to do. And if all goes well, and generally it does,

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Speaker 1: at least with my daughter, all of a sudden she's,

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Speaker 1: you know, drawing something or writing something.

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Speaker 2: That's neat. Yeah. Or you're like, where did she get

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Speaker 2: that pony? Right. All of a sudden.

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Speaker 1: I know. How creative.

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Speaker 2: So one thing that the philosophers did have in common, Chuck,

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Speaker 2: was that they considered boredom important. And I think today

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Speaker 2: most people, including me, I did not think of boredom

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Speaker 2: as particularly important. But if you look at it a

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Speaker 2: certain way, say like have science nowadays, It's extremely important

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Speaker 2: in that if you think about us never getting bored,

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Speaker 2: we would just sit around either blissed out all day

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Speaker 2: or sitting around doing nothing. Right. Like boredom actually prompts

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Speaker 2: you to action. And they believe now that essentially it's

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Speaker 2: because your brain is constantly seeking new novel stimuli. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: That when it's not granted that, when it doesn't have

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Speaker 2: the opportunity to do that anymore, and we'll see in

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Speaker 2: a second there's different reasons why that can happen, it

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Speaker 2: just basically shuts down to a certain extent. And that's

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Speaker 2: not just it. If it just kind of shut down,

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Speaker 2: you would just be daydreaming. There's also a negative arousal

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Speaker 2: state to where you just feel restless, agitated. You can't concentrate.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And those two things combined make boredom kind of unpleasant

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Speaker 2: and spur you to action, to go do something that

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Speaker 2: will give your brain the novel stimuli it gets to

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Speaker 2: search for. It likes to search for signal among noise

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Speaker 2: and then engage with the signal, is how I saw

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Speaker 2: it put. And that when it can't do that, that's

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Speaker 2: where boredom comes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought that was really interesting because I was

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Speaker 1: today years old when I found out that the brain

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Speaker 1: is constantly predicting sensory inputs.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: I always just kind of thought the brain was processing

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Speaker 1: information as it receives it, but the brain is, is

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Speaker 1: predicting like, like actively predicting sensory inputs and the brain

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Speaker 1: loves it when those predictions are validated. But what it

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Speaker 1: really loves is when it, uh, it's in an environment

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Speaker 1: where it makes a prediction that is, um, slightly different

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Speaker 1: than what it predicted in reality.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we would call that learning in other words, right?

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Speaker 2: And that's where the brain gets a little dose of

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Speaker 2: dopamine because we've talked about dopamine before. It's a reinforcing

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Speaker 2: reward chemical, right? It's not like, oh, I ate the

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Speaker 2: Snickers and there's dopamine. That's a misstatement of what dopamine is.

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Speaker 2: Dopamine is what our brain gets when we get it.

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Speaker 2: Our brain gets it slightly wrong. So that it learns,

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Speaker 2: it says, this is important. Here's what the correct answer was.

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Speaker 2: And now your brain just learned. And that's what it

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Speaker 2: seems to like the most, like you said.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And boredom could also or at least

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Speaker 1: what it could represent is a faulty prediction where the

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Speaker 1: brain has an unrealistic award or reward that they think

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Speaker 1: is coming. So in that case, it varies from like

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Speaker 1: the prediction, but not in a good way. So like

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Speaker 1: there's a hypothesis that if you're prone to boredom, that

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Speaker 1: your brain isn't predicting well. It's like bad at predicting

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Speaker 1: what's happening.

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Speaker 2: Right. There's other situations that they've identified where you can

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Speaker 2: get bored or where boredom sets in. One is obviously

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Speaker 2: where you're just not getting enough stimulation. Like an example

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Speaker 2: I thought of is, let's say your quality control for

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Speaker 2: the Schatz brewery production line and your job is to

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Speaker 2: look for a glove on a bottle. And that's only

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Speaker 2: happened one time and it's never happened since. And you're

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Speaker 2: really getting bored by this point because you know that

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Speaker 2: nothing new is coming along. So your brain is like,

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Speaker 2: I'm bored, right?

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Which as we'll see is a terrible state for you

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Speaker 2: to be in as a worker for years and years

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Speaker 2: on end. And then the other one is the opposite.

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Speaker 2: Like you're getting so much information that you don't understand

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Speaker 2: that you get bored because your brain can't find signal

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Speaker 2: in the noise. And a good example I saw of

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Speaker 2: that is like a really dense lecture on a topic

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Speaker 2: that you are totally unfamiliar with.

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Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. I fall into that trap a lot,

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Speaker 1: I feel like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think most people do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And you can become really restless if you're trying

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Speaker 1: to become mentally engaged. And then if you fail to,

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Speaker 1: that a real listlessness can follow. I mentioned the time thing.

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Speaker 1: It can really feel like time has slowed down. And

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Speaker 1: that there's no value in what's going on and your

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Speaker 1: concentration is off. We did talk about, like, you don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily yawn when you're bored, but you can yawn when

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Speaker 1: you're bored. Like, you can change your, like, physical state.

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Speaker 1: You could slouch a lot more. It's, you know, sometimes

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Speaker 1: this may be a signal to other people that we're

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Speaker 1: with of, like, you know, this party's lame. Let's get

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Speaker 1: out of here. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, because I remember in our yawning episode that

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Speaker 2: they said, One of the theories was that it was

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Speaker 2: a signal to others that danger was nearby when we

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Speaker 2: were anxious.

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Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, that's right. Danger.

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Speaker 2: So there's been studies about what it's like to be bored.

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Speaker 2: All of us know what boredom is like. But I

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Speaker 2: think if you just took me aside and, you know,

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Speaker 2: five days ago said like, OK, what is boredom? Like,

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Speaker 2: explain it, describe it.

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Speaker 1: You'd say this.

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Speaker 2: I probably wouldn't have been able to. So people have

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Speaker 2: studied boredom. to try to figure out subjectively what boredom

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Speaker 2: is like. He ticked off a lot of it, but

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Speaker 2: it seems like the studies that really kind of got

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Speaker 2: to the root of it went to the furthest extreme

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Speaker 2: and induced the deepest possible boredom that you can through

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Speaker 2: sensory deprivation. And what they found is that the brain

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Speaker 2: just goes haywire when it's bored to those extreme levels.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they did. You know, they've done studies like this,

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Speaker 1: you know, for decades. But there was one in the

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Speaker 1: 50s at McGill University in Montreal. Shout out Montreal, where

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Speaker 1: they paid people 20 bucks a day to stay in

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Speaker 1: these little rooms. You had to wear like sensory deprivation

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Speaker 1: goggles and headphones and gloves and cardboard tubes on the arms.

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Speaker 1: I didn't quite get that. I guess they just wanted

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Speaker 1: you to be fully sort of, I don't know, locked down.

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Speaker 2: No sense of touch, maybe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. And I think it was

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Speaker 1: over the period of a few days. They never went

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Speaker 1: longer than a week. Right. But it was not good.

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Speaker 1: You know, people couldn't think of like fix on anything,

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Speaker 1: like any thought for any length of time at all.

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Speaker 1: And their word pattern recognition got all over the place.

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Speaker 1: Their arithmetic skills were terrible. They started like hallucinating and

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Speaker 1: they became more susceptible to supernatural beliefs.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 1: So obviously something like solitary confinement in prison, which I

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Speaker 1: think we Did we do a whole episode in solitary

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Speaker 1: or just?

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Speaker 2: Yes, we did. And we concluded it's not only inhumane,

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Speaker 2: it's inhuman.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, completely. Because it physically alters the brain, like it

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Speaker 1: shrinks your hippocampus, which is the part of the brain that,

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Speaker 1: you know, we talk about a lot, but it's involved

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Speaker 1: in emotion control, spatial orientation, memory, that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: So you're basically just you're shrinking that part of your

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Speaker 1: brain when you throw someone in solitary.

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Speaker 2: Right. You want to take a break and come back

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Speaker 2: and talk about how boredom can be useful?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do it. No stuff you should know, stuff

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Speaker 1: you should know.

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Speaker 2: All right, Chuck. So we've basically talked about how boredom

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Speaker 2: is not pleasant. And that kind of prompted a lot

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Speaker 2: of researchers to be like, well, then why are we

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Speaker 2: experiencing boredom? If we experience boredom, and it seems like

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Speaker 2: a lot of different animals experience boredom too, as we'll see,

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Speaker 2: there has to be some sort of evolutionary benefit from

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Speaker 2: it for it sticking around for clearly tens or hundreds

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Speaker 2: of millions of years, right? And what they've What they

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Speaker 2: finally landed on was the same thing that Schopenhauer and

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Speaker 2: Nietzsche and Henry David Thoreau and a bunch of other

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Speaker 2: philosophers pointed to, which was it prompts you to go

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Speaker 2: out and do other stuff. And it doesn't necessarily prompt

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Speaker 2: you to go out and do the safest thing. It

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Speaker 2: turns out that it prompts you to go do anything else,

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Speaker 2: even stuff that is outside of your comfort zone. If

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Speaker 2: it's an alternative to whatever you're doing now and you're bored,

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Speaker 2: you're much likelier to go try it than when you're

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Speaker 2: not bored. And that's what a bunch of research has

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Speaker 2: turned up. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's, you know, you think about the scenario

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Speaker 1: of a bunch of kids bored in the summertime. They're like, hey,

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Speaker 1: let's go jump off the roof of the house right

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Speaker 1: now and see what happens.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You know, that kind of thing. There was a study

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Speaker 1: in the, I guess it's a scientific paper, Emotion, or

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Speaker 1: a magazine.

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Speaker 2: A journal, yeah. Journal.

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Speaker 1: Quarterly, maybe. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: A rag.

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Speaker 1: A white paper. By doctors Heather Lynch and Shane Bench,

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Speaker 1: Lynch and Bench. Yeah. Where they subjected the participants to

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Speaker 1: stimuli that would make them bored. Either neutral bored, positive bored,

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Speaker 1: or negative bored. And across all the studies, people reporting

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Speaker 1: high boredom were more likely to choose something unfamiliar, which

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Speaker 1: included negative experiences. And people bored by positive conditions sought

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Speaker 1: out negative experiences. And if you were bored by negative content,

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Speaker 1: you sought out positive experiences. So almost like you're seeking

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Speaker 1: out the opposite of whatever you're experiencing in your boredom.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah. They kept showing them like picture after picture

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Speaker 2: after picture. And even if it was positive, They're like,

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Speaker 2: do you want to switch to the negative pictures? It's

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Speaker 2: like cockroaches and stacks of dirty dishes. And the people

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Speaker 2: were like, yes, please hurry up. So, yeah, that's pretty

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Speaker 2: good study pointing out that, you know, it will leave

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Speaker 2: our comfort zone. At least we'll go look at pictures

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Speaker 2: of dirty dishes if we're bored. Right. And then other

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Speaker 2: studies have kind of followed this up. There was one

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Speaker 2: in 2014 that attached something that could deliver an electric

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Speaker 2: shock around participants ankles. And then just left them to

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Speaker 2: be bored in a room alone for 15 minutes and

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Speaker 2: see if anybody would press the button that gave themselves

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Speaker 2: a shock. Knowing that if they press this button, that's

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Speaker 2: what was going to happen. It wasn't like a surprise.

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Speaker 2: And people did. A lot of people did. As a

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Speaker 2: matter of fact, they got so bored. They're like, I

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Speaker 2: guess I'll just give myself electric shocks.

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Speaker 1: I could see myself totally doing that, by the way.

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Speaker 2: I think it depends on the shock. I would at

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Speaker 2: least try it once probably eventually.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, my deal. I would try it once and be like, well,

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Speaker 1: I got to see what the button does. There's like

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Speaker 1: no way I'm just going to sit here and not know.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The one guy apparently pressed the button 190 times in

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Speaker 2: that study.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think they should do some follow-up studies with

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Speaker 1: that guy.

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Speaker 2: And just that guy.

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Speaker 1: Something's going on there.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. So circling it back around to evolution, what they

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Speaker 2: basically put all this together is that You know, just

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Speaker 2: sitting around like a campfire or something. If we got

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Speaker 2: bored or Tuk-Tuk got bored, that might prompt him to

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Speaker 2: be like, I'm going to go see what's over here.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to go, you know, see what's down this river.

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Speaker 2: And then maybe Tuk-Tuk encountered a new animal that Tuk-Tuk

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Speaker 2: had never seen before. And Tuk-Tuk was kind of forced

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Speaker 2: to create a new weapon to hunt that animal or

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Speaker 2: even better, even better. Tuk-Tuk made friends with that animal.

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Speaker 2: And all of a sudden, both of their brains just

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Speaker 2: enlarged because of the empathy and love that developed between

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Speaker 2: the two.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that could go either way. You know,

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Speaker 1: I've talked a bit about watching the survival TV show alone.

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Speaker 1: And a common theme among all participants on that show

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Speaker 1: is like, you're out here by yourself and like it

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Speaker 1: gets boring. And sometimes that has led to them making

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Speaker 1: decisions that leads to like the end of their stay there.

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Speaker 1: Because they did what Tuk Tuk did. They're like, hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm bored. I want to go cross that stream that

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Speaker 1: I thought it was probably a really bad idea to cross.

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Speaker 1: And it turns out that was correct. And all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden they're getting helicoptered out.

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Speaker 2: Yes. But it can also work out, too, in that

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Speaker 2: you go make a friend with an animal on the

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Speaker 2: other side.

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Speaker 1: Of that stream. Yeah. Or kill it and eat it.

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Speaker 2: So I think also one of the more prevalent interpretations

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Speaker 2: among lay people like us is meaning people who like

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Speaker 2: to just lay around, is that dumb people are more

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Speaker 2: prone to be bored. And apparently this is the idea

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Speaker 2: of Henry David Thoreau. He was like, if you're smart,

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Speaker 2: you can always find something to occupy yourself. And everyone's like,

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Speaker 2: shut up, Thoreau. We know that you're so smart and cool.

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Speaker 2: We get it. You don't have to put everybody else down.

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Speaker 2: Studies have not borne out Thoreau's idea. It finds that

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Speaker 2: intelligent people and people of lower intelligence are not, neither

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Speaker 2: one's more likely to become bored more easily. But there

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Speaker 2: are personality traits that create like trait boredom. There's trait

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Speaker 2: and there's state, just like optimism. There's trait boredom and

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Speaker 2: there's state boredom. And trait boredom seems to be kind

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Speaker 2: of identified with two different types of people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a psychologist named John Eastwood that said if

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Speaker 1: you're an impulsive person and if you're always like looking

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Speaker 1: for that new thrill and that, you know, generally kind

399
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Speaker 1: of understimulated by the world around you, then that totally

400
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Speaker 1: makes sense that you would be prone to boredom. This one,

401
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Speaker 1: I don't know, I can't make sense of, but if

402
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Speaker 1: you're highly sensitive to pain and fearful of the world

403
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Speaker 1: around you, maybe you're unsatisfied by the idea, like the

404
00:20:44,940 --> 00:20:47,800
Speaker 1: safety net of not leaving your comfort zone. So you

405
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,020
Speaker 1: might be more prone to boredom. But I guess maybe

406
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Speaker 1: more willing to live with it?

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Speaker 2: Yes. Your anxiety or your fears overcome your aversion, your

408
00:20:58,470 --> 00:21:02,590
Speaker 2: natural aversion to boredom as a human. And so you're

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Speaker 2: just not feeding your brain any new stuff anymore. So

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Speaker 2: you become bored. It's very sad. Reason for being prone

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Speaker 2: to boredom.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. In school, you know, you were talking about intelligence

413
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Speaker 1: in school. Boredom is a big, you know, can be

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Speaker 1: a big challenge for any student. But there are eight

415
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Speaker 1: precursors for boredom in school, which is you're under challenged.

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Speaker 1: Like maybe you're in a like a remedial class and

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Speaker 1: you're a little more advanced over challenge and go the

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Speaker 1: other way to where if you're like, I just don't

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Speaker 1: get this stuff. So you just slip into boredom. Right.

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Speaker 1: You were talking about earlier. monotony in classrooms, if you

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Speaker 1: don't like your teacher, if you think there's a lack

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Speaker 1: of meaning in going to school or a lack of involvement.

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Speaker 1: And then the other one is just the, you know, man,

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Speaker 1: I could be doing whatever. I could be outside throwing

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Speaker 1: the Frisbee right now instead of being in this dumb class. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And if you're an adolescent, you're essentially born to be bored.

427
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Speaker 2: Like your boredom levels peak between the ages of 10

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Speaker 2: and 17. Apparently where you and I are in life

429
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Speaker 2: right now is where boredom levels dip the most.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel that.

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Speaker 2: I can too. It's not like I'm always doing something

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Speaker 2: meaningful or important. I just don't feel bored ever. That's all.

433
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Speaker 1: I don't either.

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00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,419
Speaker 2: Yeah. Even when I'm not doing anything, I'm never bored.

435
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,870
Speaker 1: Same, man. I don't feel boredom anymore. It's kind of great.

436
00:22:25,130 --> 00:22:26,470
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's great.

437
00:22:27,030 --> 00:22:29,050
Speaker 1: I wonder if it's just getting to a certain point

438
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Speaker 1: in your life where you're Maybe just satisfied with where

439
00:22:33,020 --> 00:22:35,920
Speaker 1: you are or maybe drinking the small things more. I

440
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:36,340
Speaker 1: don't know.

441
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,149
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. I think that's definitely part of it.

442
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,020
Speaker 2: And apparently it starts to go back up as you

443
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 2: get older, which I'm not looking forward to.

444
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's avoid that. Let's agree to avoid that. Yes.

445
00:22:48,369 --> 00:22:49,750
Speaker 2: All right. Agreed. Pinky swear.

446
00:22:49,930 --> 00:22:50,490
Speaker 1: Pinky swear.

447
00:22:51,250 --> 00:22:54,550
Speaker 2: But nothing compares to your levels of boredom from 10

448
00:22:54,550 --> 00:22:57,149
Speaker 2: to 17. Part of it is that your brain is

449
00:22:57,210 --> 00:23:04,190
Speaker 2: still developing. So you said impulse control. needing stimulation is

450
00:23:05,050 --> 00:23:07,290
Speaker 2: one group of people who get bored more easily. Well,

451
00:23:07,410 --> 00:23:10,340
Speaker 2: adolescents by nature are like that because their brain is

452
00:23:10,390 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 2: still developing. And then also they have much less agency

453
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:18,379
Speaker 2: or control over their lives. And control or lack of

454
00:23:18,460 --> 00:23:23,379
Speaker 2: control is positively correlated with boredom. Oh, sure.

455
00:23:24,330 --> 00:23:24,550
Speaker 1: Yes.

456
00:23:24,609 --> 00:23:27,109
Speaker 2: So if you're like, I want to go buy a

457
00:23:27,170 --> 00:23:31,949
Speaker 2: mad magazine at this awesome used comic book store. But

458
00:23:31,990 --> 00:23:33,550
Speaker 2: I can't because I can't drive and it's all the

459
00:23:33,590 --> 00:23:36,830
Speaker 2: way on the other side of town. You're probably going

460
00:23:36,869 --> 00:23:39,810
Speaker 2: to really resent the situation that you're in right there.

461
00:23:39,910 --> 00:23:42,310
Speaker 2: And nothing is going to make you like you're not

462
00:23:42,330 --> 00:23:44,010
Speaker 2: going to say, oh, I'll just go play duck hunt

463
00:23:44,050 --> 00:23:48,709
Speaker 2: then and be happy. You're just upset about that. And

464
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 2: that can can create like a sense of boredom in

465
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:52,919
Speaker 2: and of itself.

466
00:23:53,859 --> 00:23:57,959
Speaker 1: Buddy, do you remember the feeling you got when you

467
00:23:57,980 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 1: got that driver's license?

468
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,670
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, not really. I don't.

469
00:24:04,810 --> 00:24:09,510
Speaker 1: Oh, really? Yeah. Man, that is, and it might just

470
00:24:09,550 --> 00:24:12,230
Speaker 1: be me then. That was one of the single most

471
00:24:12,270 --> 00:24:16,210
Speaker 1: like important sort of things that happened in my life

472
00:24:16,369 --> 00:24:18,750
Speaker 1: up to, you know, my 20s or 30s even.

473
00:24:18,950 --> 00:24:19,650
Speaker 2: Wow, that's awesome.

474
00:24:19,910 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 1: That freedom when I finally got that car key and

475
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,399
Speaker 1: was able to go and leave the house by myself

476
00:24:26,460 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: to go do something and go somewhere that I wanted

477
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:29,140
Speaker 1: to go.

478
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:30,220
Speaker 2: That's cool, man.

479
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 1: It was incredible. I remember the feeling of just being like,

480
00:24:33,330 --> 00:24:38,950
Speaker 1: Now I can leave. I mean, no shade toward my

481
00:24:38,990 --> 00:24:43,300
Speaker 1: family or anything. I've talked before about not having the

482
00:24:43,340 --> 00:24:47,180
Speaker 1: greatest situation with my parents and all. So, yeah, I

483
00:24:47,220 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 1: wanted to get out of there. But just the freedom

484
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:50,740
Speaker 1: to go to my friend's house or whatever, go to

485
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 1: the Turtles record store or whatever.

486
00:24:52,859 --> 00:24:53,740
Speaker 2: Oh, I remember those.

487
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:54,900
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was incredible.

488
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, totally. You prize freedom.

489
00:24:57,340 --> 00:24:57,500
Speaker 1: Yeah.

490
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:58,260
Speaker 2: That makes sense.

491
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:03,300
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. We should probably talk about digital media, though, because... Yes.

492
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 1: If you look at like boredom generationally, it's a different

493
00:25:06,460 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 1: ball of twine these days.

494
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,100
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think most people think when you get bored,

495
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,740
Speaker 2: you pull out your smartphone, you go on Instagram or

496
00:25:14,820 --> 00:25:18,350
Speaker 2: Facebook or TikTok, I guess is how you pronounce it.

497
00:25:20,260 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 2: And like now you're not bored any longer. And there

498
00:25:23,780 --> 00:25:29,140
Speaker 2: are theories, starting with our good friend Arthur Schopenhauer, that

499
00:25:29,700 --> 00:25:32,460
Speaker 2: you are still bored. What you have done is actually changed.

500
00:25:32,859 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 2: lowered your cognitive levels. Yeah. So that you're not bored anymore.

501
00:25:39,260 --> 00:25:42,260
Speaker 2: You're not going and doing something meaningful or fulfilling to

502
00:25:42,460 --> 00:25:47,950
Speaker 2: stave off boredom. You've just undertaken a deeply maladaptive response

503
00:25:48,030 --> 00:25:50,750
Speaker 2: to boredom, which is I'm going to stop thinking so much.

504
00:25:51,190 --> 00:25:53,389
Speaker 2: And that's what you're doing when you go scroll on

505
00:25:53,450 --> 00:25:54,210
Speaker 2: social media.

506
00:25:55,650 --> 00:25:59,230
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I guess it's a temporary salve kind of thing.

507
00:26:00,510 --> 00:26:04,270
Speaker 1: But like chronic exposure to that to like your smartphone

508
00:26:05,590 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: is basically pushing up the standard of what you find

509
00:26:09,900 --> 00:26:12,700
Speaker 1: engaging enough to keep you from being bored. Does that

510
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:13,100
Speaker 1: make sense?

511
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 2: Yeah. And that's, so that's a little different from what

512
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 2: I'm saying. That totally makes sense to me. The one

513
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,270
Speaker 2: I'm talking about is this idea that what you're engaging

514
00:26:22,330 --> 00:26:26,210
Speaker 2: is existential escape. And there's a whole school of thought

515
00:26:26,270 --> 00:26:31,580
Speaker 2: that boredom represents a threat to to meaning. It shows

516
00:26:31,619 --> 00:26:34,469
Speaker 2: you what you're doing right now is not meaningful. What

517
00:26:34,490 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 2: you're doing is meaningless. Maybe your entire life is meaningless.

518
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:42,900
Speaker 2: Maybe everyone's life is meaningless. So you're threatened by that. Boredom,

519
00:26:43,050 --> 00:26:47,430
Speaker 2: it generates those thoughts in you. So when you go

520
00:26:47,570 --> 00:26:51,730
Speaker 2: pick up your phone and start scrolling, you are escaping

521
00:26:51,790 --> 00:26:57,210
Speaker 2: those existential thoughts by not thinking about that kind of stuff.

522
00:26:57,570 --> 00:27:00,570
Speaker 2: And when people spend hours and hours every day on

523
00:27:00,609 --> 00:27:03,130
Speaker 2: their phone and everybody has it in their pocket, We

524
00:27:03,210 --> 00:27:06,389
Speaker 2: have now this quick and easy way to just stop

525
00:27:06,490 --> 00:27:10,969
Speaker 2: thinking and stop going and doing something else that is

526
00:27:11,030 --> 00:27:14,430
Speaker 2: more meaningful to you personally, not necessarily to society, but

527
00:27:14,490 --> 00:27:17,429
Speaker 2: something that's more meaningful to you. And so we get

528
00:27:17,490 --> 00:27:22,170
Speaker 2: trapped in this state of living to a lesser degree

529
00:27:22,540 --> 00:27:27,740
Speaker 2: than we would if there weren't social media apps on smartphones. Seriously,

530
00:27:27,820 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 2: it's as cut and dried as that.

531
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. I'm getting a dumb phone.

532
00:27:33,210 --> 00:27:33,449
Speaker 2: Are you?

533
00:27:34,220 --> 00:27:36,820
Speaker 1: Yeah, I got to figure it out because I just

534
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:38,959
Speaker 1: started sort of looking into it. But I want to

535
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 1: be able to have both with the same phone number.

536
00:27:43,060 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 2: Oh, neat.

537
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,950
Speaker 1: Because in certain situations, I'm going to still want my iPhone,

538
00:27:47,990 --> 00:27:50,390
Speaker 1: like when I'm traveling or whatever. A lot of situations

539
00:27:50,410 --> 00:27:51,070
Speaker 1: where I'm going to want it.

540
00:27:51,470 --> 00:27:51,590
Speaker 2: Yeah.

541
00:27:51,690 --> 00:27:54,650
Speaker 1: But I want to get one. And maybe if someone

542
00:27:54,670 --> 00:27:56,109
Speaker 1: knows how to do this, that would be great if

543
00:27:56,150 --> 00:27:57,990
Speaker 1: they could write in. But I want to get one

544
00:27:58,030 --> 00:28:00,630
Speaker 1: that works with the same phone number on the same carrier.

545
00:28:00,650 --> 00:28:00,950
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

546
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 1: I'm happy to pay for the extra whatever it costs

547
00:28:03,980 --> 00:28:08,460
Speaker 1: to manage that account or whatever. But yeah, in a

548
00:28:08,540 --> 00:28:11,220
Speaker 1: lot of most situations, I would try to have the

549
00:28:11,260 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: dumb phone on me.

550
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 2: I'm just like talking out of turn here, but it

551
00:28:17,740 --> 00:28:21,810
Speaker 2: seems like spoofing your SIM would be the answer to that.

552
00:28:21,990 --> 00:28:23,490
Speaker 2: And I don't know how you would do that, but

553
00:28:23,530 --> 00:28:24,450
Speaker 2: that would be my guess.

554
00:28:25,350 --> 00:28:26,730
Speaker 1: I don't know what spoofing a SIM means.

555
00:28:27,270 --> 00:28:30,650
Speaker 2: Your SIM card is what gives your phone its individual characteristics,

556
00:28:30,670 --> 00:28:32,330
Speaker 2: like your phone number and all that stuff.

557
00:28:32,530 --> 00:28:32,870
Speaker 1: Oh, okay.

558
00:28:33,090 --> 00:28:35,270
Speaker 2: So if you can figure out how to duplicate that

559
00:28:35,430 --> 00:28:40,390
Speaker 2: or spoof it in TikTok terms, you could conceivably have

560
00:28:40,470 --> 00:28:42,710
Speaker 2: two phones with the same number getting the same info

561
00:28:42,730 --> 00:28:43,450
Speaker 2: at the same time.

562
00:28:44,790 --> 00:28:47,250
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know why Apple doesn't put out

563
00:28:47,350 --> 00:28:50,350
Speaker 1: a dumb phone that's like, here's another thing we can

564
00:28:50,390 --> 00:28:54,300
Speaker 1: sell you. Right. uh, that works perfectly with your phone

565
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: number and everything. Like I figured, I think they would

566
00:28:56,460 --> 00:28:58,390
Speaker 1: sell a ton of those because people would be like, yeah,

567
00:28:58,590 --> 00:29:00,690
Speaker 1: I want two phones when I'm out with my friends.

568
00:29:00,730 --> 00:29:03,870
Speaker 1: I want my dumb phone so I can just stay present. And, uh,

569
00:29:03,990 --> 00:29:05,790
Speaker 1: when I, whatever I want my smartphone.

570
00:29:06,510 --> 00:29:09,170
Speaker 2: I think that, I think you just kind of answered it, that, um,

571
00:29:09,650 --> 00:29:14,130
Speaker 2: there's people who would say, because generally people in charge

572
00:29:14,230 --> 00:29:15,380
Speaker 2: don't want you to be present.

573
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:17,100
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe so.

574
00:29:17,540 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 2: That's, that's, yeah, it's my guess.

575
00:29:20,540 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 1: I just saw where, uh, Social media companies are being

576
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: sued for $ 220 billion by a handful of states for

577
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,540
Speaker 1: getting children addicted to social media.

578
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,989
Speaker 2: Which they 100% did. Yeah. I'm really curious how that

579
00:29:34,030 --> 00:29:37,130
Speaker 2: pans out because it's, I mean, it's a slam dunk case.

580
00:29:37,210 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 2: It's just those guys are so powerful. that I mean,

581
00:29:41,540 --> 00:29:45,100
Speaker 2: they make the tobacco companies look like, you know, a

582
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,570
Speaker 2: local auto body shop.

583
00:29:48,220 --> 00:29:51,410
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm with you. And hats off to Australia, because

584
00:29:51,430 --> 00:29:56,290
Speaker 1: they mandated countrywide no social media for any children under 16.

585
00:29:56,290 --> 00:29:57,730
Speaker 2: Yeah, they did that a while back, didn't they?

586
00:29:58,730 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: I don't know how recently, but they're sort of leading

587
00:30:00,580 --> 00:30:02,260
Speaker 1: the way in a lot of other countries are like, hey,

588
00:30:02,300 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: maybe that's not such a bad idea. And certainly, you know,

589
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: we're going to do that in our family. And I

590
00:30:06,180 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: don't even think 16, man, I would love to see

591
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,180
Speaker 1: Ruby get through all of high school without any exposure

592
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: to social media.

593
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 2: That would be something really great. Yeah, I think it's

594
00:30:14,700 --> 00:30:16,270
Speaker 2: very sad. And I think it's going to be something

595
00:30:16,310 --> 00:30:19,610
Speaker 2: that we it's just going to get more and more

596
00:30:19,750 --> 00:30:24,210
Speaker 2: clear as time goes on, like just how harmful that was.

597
00:30:24,710 --> 00:30:27,810
Speaker 1: And yeah, and especially as it gets more and more fake.

598
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: and deep faked and AI to the point where people

599
00:30:31,660 --> 00:30:34,020
Speaker 1: are sitting around staring at something that isn't even real ever.

600
00:30:35,020 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. I, I tend to hope though, Chuck, that it's

601
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,980
Speaker 2: been ground in so hard and in, in such a

602
00:30:43,050 --> 00:30:45,730
Speaker 2: compressed amount of time over the course of just several

603
00:30:45,770 --> 00:30:48,830
Speaker 2: years that people are just going to have a natural

604
00:30:48,950 --> 00:30:52,190
Speaker 2: backlash against it. And maybe like the cool thing will

605
00:30:52,210 --> 00:30:55,250
Speaker 2: be to spend all your time outside doing stuff or,

606
00:30:55,370 --> 00:30:55,650
Speaker 2: you know.

607
00:30:56,310 --> 00:30:58,870
Speaker 1: I hope so, man. I would love to see it swing.

608
00:30:58,910 --> 00:31:01,010
Speaker 1: And things a lot of times do swing back hard

609
00:31:01,050 --> 00:31:02,700
Speaker 1: the other way. I would love to see that of

610
00:31:02,740 --> 00:31:05,980
Speaker 1: like people like smashing their smartphones and be like, no, man,

611
00:31:06,020 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: it was things were better before. Let's go back to that. Yeah,

612
00:31:09,140 --> 00:31:13,550
Speaker 1: that'd be great. Maybe we'll take a break and talk

613
00:31:13,590 --> 00:31:16,550
Speaker 1: about animals and benefits of boredom. Does that sound good?

614
00:31:16,950 --> 00:31:17,910
Speaker 2: Yeah. All right.

615
00:31:17,950 --> 00:31:46,210
Speaker 1: We'll be right back. All right, everyone, we're back after

616
00:31:46,290 --> 00:31:49,290
Speaker 1: our little rant. I hope it was taken in the

617
00:31:49,310 --> 00:31:49,630
Speaker 1: right way.

618
00:31:49,650 --> 00:31:53,630
Speaker 2: Tim Cook is like, those guys really hurt my feelings.

619
00:31:54,310 --> 00:31:56,270
Speaker 1: Tim Cook would be, I hope he gives me credit

620
00:31:56,290 --> 00:31:57,870
Speaker 1: when they invent a dumb phone that they can sell

621
00:31:57,890 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: you for like $ 700. Yeah, at least. You can text

622
00:32:03,700 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: and get the map to places and call people and that'll.

623
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 2: Be $ 700. You're paying not to go into cognitive decline.

624
00:32:12,700 --> 00:32:15,100
Speaker 2: I think that's really what the price reflects. All right.

625
00:32:15,140 --> 00:32:17,620
Speaker 1: So I promised to talk about animals getting bored, animals

626
00:32:17,660 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: that aren't us, that is. And they have done research

627
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: and basically kind of said like, yeah, animals for sure

628
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,940
Speaker 1: get bored. I think we, I mean, people that are,

629
00:32:26,220 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: you know, dog and at least dog owners have seen

630
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:30,740
Speaker 1: their own dogs get bored and get like get destructive

631
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,630
Speaker 1: because they're They're not stimulated enough. And I think that's

632
00:32:33,670 --> 00:32:38,270
Speaker 1: kind of the same thing. But they've studied mink, like

633
00:32:38,310 --> 00:32:41,590
Speaker 1: the animal, the mink that they house them in non

634
00:32:41,690 --> 00:32:47,030
Speaker 1: enriching environments was terrible. And then they said they definitely

635
00:32:47,110 --> 00:32:50,990
Speaker 1: experienced boredom like states because they found that they would

636
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:55,580
Speaker 1: these mink would approach anything novel shown to them. Even

637
00:32:55,630 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 1: if it was like a predator, like what they thought

638
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,140
Speaker 1: was a predator, like a predator shadow and the noises

639
00:33:00,180 --> 00:33:02,020
Speaker 1: of a predator, the mink was like, well, I'll go

640
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,660
Speaker 1: check it out. I don't care. Anything but this cage. Yeah.

641
00:33:04,700 --> 00:33:08,180
Speaker 2: Isn't that interesting though? It increased curiosity in them, like

642
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,410
Speaker 2: because they were bored. So that kind of goes to,

643
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,740
Speaker 2: to support that evolutionary idea too. Yeah. There's another one

644
00:33:14,780 --> 00:33:18,979
Speaker 2: that studied rats where basically they switched up foraging material

645
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,020
Speaker 2: and the flavor of the pellets under the foraging material.

646
00:33:22,580 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 2: For some rats and then others, they just gave them

647
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 2: the same ones over and over again. And the ones

648
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 2: that got the same ones over and over again exhibited

649
00:33:29,260 --> 00:33:31,750
Speaker 2: behavior like trying to find the exit out of their

650
00:33:31,790 --> 00:33:35,350
Speaker 2: cage and other really sad stuff. So what's heartening about

651
00:33:35,390 --> 00:33:38,250
Speaker 2: this is animal welfare people are pointing to this and saying, like,

652
00:33:39,390 --> 00:33:42,490
Speaker 2: if you have a pet or an animal that you keep,

653
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 2: you have a greater responsibility to it than just keeping

654
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 2: it alive and giving it food and water, maybe taking

655
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,910
Speaker 2: it for a walk. Animals get bored, which means you

656
00:33:50,930 --> 00:33:54,380
Speaker 2: have to you're responsible for stimulating something that gets bored

657
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 2: if you've taken responsibility for it in any way.

658
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. My one dog, Gibson, is a hound

659
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,890
Speaker 1: dog and he is very stimulated by smelling stuff, obviously.

660
00:34:04,990 --> 00:34:07,150
Speaker 1: So they say when you take your dog for a

661
00:34:07,190 --> 00:34:10,069
Speaker 1: walk to let them smell like if you're if you're

662
00:34:10,090 --> 00:34:12,350
Speaker 1: constantly just pulling your dog, you know, because you're trying

663
00:34:12,370 --> 00:34:15,509
Speaker 1: to get your steps in. They get more worn out

664
00:34:15,790 --> 00:34:19,050
Speaker 1: from a 20-minute sniff walk than an hour, like, hardcore

665
00:34:19,110 --> 00:34:23,150
Speaker 1: exercise walk. And my walks with Gibson, like, they're 45

666
00:34:23,150 --> 00:34:24,890
Speaker 1: to 50 minutes long, and I bet half of that

667
00:34:24,950 --> 00:34:27,130
Speaker 1: is standing around while he smells stuff.

668
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 2: I am so glad you said that, dude, because that

669
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 2: is absolutely true. And you see a lot of people

670
00:34:33,300 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 2: who are just like, come on. And that's, yeah, it doesn't, like,

671
00:34:36,739 --> 00:34:40,620
Speaker 2: that's how your dog, like, enjoys life is by sniffing

672
00:34:40,700 --> 00:34:41,219
Speaker 2: other stuff.

673
00:34:41,670 --> 00:34:45,330
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's great. And it's a good lesson for me,

674
00:34:46,170 --> 00:34:46,990
Speaker 1: like as a person.

675
00:34:47,190 --> 00:34:49,850
Speaker 2: I thought you were learning to sniff things, too. No, no, no.

676
00:34:49,870 --> 00:34:52,900
Speaker 1: Just to slow down. Like yesterday, another weird example is

677
00:34:52,940 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 1: I got I went sometimes I'll go out to play

678
00:34:55,620 --> 00:34:58,540
Speaker 1: golf by myself if no one's around and get in

679
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: like a little, you know, if they don't pair me

680
00:35:00,060 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 1: with anyone, it's kind of great because I can, you know.

681
00:35:02,969 --> 00:35:05,029
Speaker 1: drop as many balls to take the shot over again

682
00:35:05,090 --> 00:35:07,310
Speaker 1: and really like just sort of treat it as practice. Yeah.

683
00:35:07,750 --> 00:35:09,250
Speaker 1: But I went out to do that the other day

684
00:35:09,330 --> 00:35:12,029
Speaker 1: and they paired me with these two old fellers that

685
00:35:12,050 --> 00:35:14,630
Speaker 1: were probably mid eighties to nineties.

686
00:35:15,070 --> 00:35:15,370
Speaker 2: Oh, wow.

687
00:35:15,650 --> 00:35:19,410
Speaker 1: And boy, these guys were slow, slow, slow. And I

688
00:35:19,430 --> 00:35:22,189
Speaker 1: was like, you know what, Chuck, this isn't that day.

689
00:35:22,530 --> 00:35:25,299
Speaker 1: You're just going to be there with them. You're going

690
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 1: to help look for their balls. You're going to carry

691
00:35:27,180 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 1: the clubs to them when they drop them. And you're

692
00:35:29,980 --> 00:35:32,280
Speaker 1: going to slow it down. And it was a really lovely,

693
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:36,660
Speaker 1: relaxing experience. I didn't get bored. I tried to, like,

694
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 1: revel in the slowness of it all, you know.

695
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:41,240
Speaker 2: They kept dropping their clubs?

696
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,779
Speaker 1: No, like, you know, you carry a pitching wedge and

697
00:35:44,820 --> 00:35:46,860
Speaker 1: a putter to the green and you drop your pitching

698
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:51,220
Speaker 1: wedge to putt. I would always go, like, catty their

699
00:35:51,260 --> 00:35:53,209
Speaker 1: club for them or get their ball or whatever. You know,

700
00:35:53,230 --> 00:35:54,110
Speaker 1: try to help these guys out.

701
00:35:55,310 --> 00:35:55,989
Speaker 2: I got you now.

702
00:35:56,430 --> 00:35:58,130
Speaker 1: They didn't like me very much, though. It was still fun.

703
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,860
Speaker 2: So, yeah, I think that's great advice, too, just to

704
00:36:02,900 --> 00:36:05,879
Speaker 2: slow down and stay present and mindful. Yeah.

705
00:36:05,900 --> 00:36:07,580
Speaker 1: And all that, I think, comes around to the boredom thing.

706
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,700
Speaker 1: It's like there are many ways to keep yourself from

707
00:36:09,739 --> 00:36:11,900
Speaker 1: being bored. And one might be to just try and

708
00:36:11,940 --> 00:36:14,500
Speaker 1: look at the circumstance you're in in a different way.

709
00:36:15,260 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 2: For sure. Also, I think it's important to bear in

710
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 2: mind that you like what's meaningful to you or what's

711
00:36:23,260 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 2: boring to you is boring or meaningful to somebody else. Right.

712
00:36:28,140 --> 00:36:28,379
Speaker 1: Right.

713
00:36:28,900 --> 00:36:31,540
Speaker 2: So it's not like you'll get all sorts of advice,

714
00:36:31,580 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 2: like go out and read a book, go and ride

715
00:36:33,580 --> 00:36:37,980
Speaker 2: a bike. That might not necessarily be meaningful to you.

716
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,900
Speaker 2: There's something else that's going to be meaningful to you.

717
00:36:40,940 --> 00:36:44,500
Speaker 2: And that's advice that's typically given to deal with boredom,

718
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 2: which is identify things that you care about and then

719
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 2: go do those things. Just have them on hand. You know,

720
00:36:51,780 --> 00:36:53,410
Speaker 2: you don't have to do them all the time. You

721
00:36:53,430 --> 00:36:55,620
Speaker 2: don't have to become the best at them. You don't

722
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 2: have to drive yourself. You don't have to share your

723
00:36:57,540 --> 00:37:01,140
Speaker 2: experience with anybody else. But just identify some things like

724
00:37:01,180 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 2: this is meaningful to me so that if you do

725
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,300
Speaker 2: find yourself bored, you don't necessarily just pull out your phone.

726
00:37:06,530 --> 00:37:10,750
Speaker 2: You go, hmm, maybe I'll go to, you know, rescue

727
00:37:10,810 --> 00:37:14,469
Speaker 2: guppies out of elementary school aquariums.

728
00:37:15,850 --> 00:37:16,049
Speaker 1: Right.

729
00:37:16,510 --> 00:37:17,250
Speaker 2: Whatever it is.

730
00:37:18,110 --> 00:37:20,950
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it definitely can lead to creativity. There's

731
00:37:20,989 --> 00:37:24,950
Speaker 1: a psychologist named Sandy Mann that says that you know,

732
00:37:25,030 --> 00:37:28,509
Speaker 1: embrace that boredom. There was a study that she did

733
00:37:28,570 --> 00:37:31,670
Speaker 1: where she had people copying numbers from a telephone directory

734
00:37:32,489 --> 00:37:35,330
Speaker 1: and she found that they were more creative after, like

735
00:37:35,370 --> 00:37:37,029
Speaker 1: she gave them a task, like, hey, try and think

736
00:37:37,050 --> 00:37:38,650
Speaker 1: while you're doing this, try and think of new uses

737
00:37:39,050 --> 00:37:42,489
Speaker 1: for plastic cups. And once they were subjected to the

738
00:37:42,530 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: tedium of just copying numbers, it allowed their, you know,

739
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 1: they embrace that boredom and their mind wandered to all

740
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 1: these creative things they could do with the cups.

741
00:37:51,540 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 2: Beer pong was born.

742
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,630
Speaker 1: Exactly. And that there's something called the default mode network,

743
00:37:59,070 --> 00:38:03,810
Speaker 1: where if you're not doing anything, that gives your brain

744
00:38:03,870 --> 00:38:07,450
Speaker 1: space to go in that default mode where your brain

745
00:38:07,530 --> 00:38:11,380
Speaker 1: isn't engaged in a specific thing, but it can get creative.

746
00:38:11,820 --> 00:38:13,819
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've talked about that a lot over the last

747
00:38:13,860 --> 00:38:16,700
Speaker 2: few years. I know it's a big deal with ADHD

748
00:38:16,739 --> 00:38:18,820
Speaker 2: that it's really hard to get out of your default

749
00:38:18,860 --> 00:38:22,859
Speaker 2: mode network. Right. And so no surprise there. Boredom can

750
00:38:22,910 --> 00:38:26,190
Speaker 2: be a part of ADHD too.

751
00:38:26,989 --> 00:38:29,870
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And, you know, we're talking about some

752
00:38:29,890 --> 00:38:32,310
Speaker 1: of the positives that can also be a negative thing

753
00:38:33,090 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 1: because we talked about risk taking and risky behavior just

754
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 1: to do something different. They definitely tied boredom to like,

755
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,140
Speaker 1: you know, gambling, substance abuse and stuff like that. Like

756
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:47,390
Speaker 1: the promise of a stimulation that you're seeking because you're

757
00:38:47,410 --> 00:38:49,710
Speaker 1: bored can sometimes be like a really bad thing.

758
00:38:50,570 --> 00:38:55,270
Speaker 2: Agreed. you can turn to, and we've been picking on

759
00:38:55,310 --> 00:38:57,509
Speaker 2: smartphones and sorry to everybody who's like, you guys are

760
00:38:57,550 --> 00:39:00,990
Speaker 2: too preachy these days. That was definitely very preachy, but

761
00:39:01,030 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 2: it is a pretty good example. It's not the only one.

762
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 2: People take up drugs, literally take up drugs because they're

763
00:39:07,540 --> 00:39:13,180
Speaker 2: bored with life. They start drinking sometimes. Studies show that

764
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 2: people who are bored consistently go to lower quality or

765
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 2: low nutrition snacks over you know, something better for them

766
00:39:22,219 --> 00:39:25,270
Speaker 2: when they have the option. Like you can just, you

767
00:39:25,370 --> 00:39:27,350
Speaker 2: go in a place where you're going to find some

768
00:39:27,390 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 2: sort of stimulation, And yeah, so there are a lot

769
00:39:31,620 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 2: of risk behaviors associated with boredom that you're going to

770
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 2: do something because that you got to get rid of

771
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,149
Speaker 2: that arousal state that's unpleasant, which is boredom, but it's

772
00:39:41,190 --> 00:39:44,469
Speaker 2: not necessarily going to be going and volunteering at the

773
00:39:44,510 --> 00:39:48,330
Speaker 2: cancer ward at your local hospital. It might be, I'll

774
00:39:48,350 --> 00:39:49,750
Speaker 2: go see what crack's all about.

775
00:39:51,070 --> 00:39:52,570
Speaker 1: Man, you're so preachy.

776
00:39:54,070 --> 00:39:57,629
Speaker 2: Some people do. We get that from time to time.

777
00:39:58,050 --> 00:40:00,730
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you're sitting there encouraging people to, like, engage

778
00:40:00,790 --> 00:40:03,430
Speaker 1: with the world and to go volunteer for cancer and

779
00:40:03,489 --> 00:40:05,969
Speaker 1: not to do crack. Like, get off your high horse.

780
00:40:07,710 --> 00:40:10,830
Speaker 2: I think that some people don't like being told what

781
00:40:10,850 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 2: to do no matter what it is.

782
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,029
Speaker 1: I know. Yeah.

783
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 2: And I get that. I don't I feel like also

784
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 2: I think it's our age, too. we're just lucky that

785
00:40:20,260 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 2: we're not like the kind who like tell everybody how

786
00:40:22,860 --> 00:40:25,060
Speaker 2: stupid they are too, you know?

787
00:40:25,500 --> 00:40:27,259
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I hope people know it's always take

788
00:40:27,300 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 1: it or leave it. Like, you know, you don't have

789
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,219
Speaker 1: to be the way we're saying to be, but I

790
00:40:33,260 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 1: love the advice of engaging with the world or volunteering for,

791
00:40:36,219 --> 00:40:39,810
Speaker 1: you know, sick children in a hospital rather than doing crack.

792
00:40:40,370 --> 00:40:41,690
Speaker 1: I'll stand, I'll die on that Hill.

793
00:40:42,790 --> 00:40:44,910
Speaker 2: And I think also though, Chuck, it's really important that

794
00:40:44,950 --> 00:40:48,339
Speaker 2: we pointed out that, you know, there's, There's not some

795
00:40:48,420 --> 00:40:52,589
Speaker 2: ideal thing you should go be go do now that

796
00:40:52,620 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 2: it's all based on what you find meaningful. And that's

797
00:40:55,450 --> 00:40:57,290
Speaker 2: the point. Not what we're saying. You should get for

798
00:40:57,310 --> 00:40:59,589
Speaker 2: sure what you think you should go do. The point

799
00:40:59,650 --> 00:41:02,310
Speaker 2: is to just do something that's going to help you

800
00:41:02,430 --> 00:41:05,870
Speaker 2: in the long run more than, you know, turning to pot.

801
00:41:06,750 --> 00:41:11,609
Speaker 1: Right. Procrastination is another thing. I know we've talked about

802
00:41:11,630 --> 00:41:14,530
Speaker 1: that before, but it is definitely a response to boredom.

803
00:41:15,739 --> 00:41:22,150
Speaker 1: Proneness to boredom increases someone's tendency to procrastinate generally, which

804
00:41:22,210 --> 00:41:26,170
Speaker 1: is interesting because it's, you know, doing that thing would

805
00:41:26,230 --> 00:41:28,250
Speaker 1: solve the boredom problem that like the thing you're putting

806
00:41:28,370 --> 00:41:29,210
Speaker 1: off a lot of times.

807
00:41:29,670 --> 00:41:32,320
Speaker 2: I think they're equating it with like looking at your smartphone.

808
00:41:32,340 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 2: You're not actually doing anything. You're just lowering your brain

809
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:37,339
Speaker 2: standards for input.

810
00:41:38,580 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 1: I guess that makes sense then.

811
00:41:40,150 --> 00:41:43,570
Speaker 2: And we talked about some stuff with managing boredom, like

812
00:41:44,030 --> 00:41:46,670
Speaker 2: identifying ahead of time things that you could go do.

813
00:41:47,130 --> 00:41:49,930
Speaker 2: Like you said, don't just try to solve it immediately

814
00:41:49,989 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 2: for kids. Let them kind of figure it out on

815
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 2: their own. I also saw there was a study where

816
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,100
Speaker 2: researchers presented kids with a big bag of toys and

817
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:01,259
Speaker 2: they found that the kids played with each one a

818
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,930
Speaker 2: little bit and then just stopped eventually. And that if

819
00:42:04,969 --> 00:42:08,030
Speaker 2: they gave kids just like one toy, the kid engaged

820
00:42:08,050 --> 00:42:11,410
Speaker 2: with that one toy much longer. So that's part of it, too,

821
00:42:11,469 --> 00:42:14,570
Speaker 2: I guess, is robbing children of any sort of choice

822
00:42:14,670 --> 00:42:16,800
Speaker 2: in life, I think, is the lesson there.

823
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 1: I really what really hit home was when you like

824
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: to do something meaningful for you. I really like that

825
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,219
Speaker 1: you said that because that could be going to, you know,

826
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,129
Speaker 1: working in your garden or whatever. It could be drawing something.

827
00:42:29,190 --> 00:42:31,150
Speaker 1: It could be writing something, could be taking a walk.

828
00:42:32,150 --> 00:42:34,529
Speaker 1: It could be anything. It doesn't have to be some

829
00:42:34,670 --> 00:42:36,969
Speaker 1: like grand, meaningful gesture to other people.

830
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,270
Speaker 2: Right. That's what I was trying to say, that there's

831
00:42:39,350 --> 00:42:43,109
Speaker 2: not some level that your activities have to rise to

832
00:42:43,170 --> 00:42:46,410
Speaker 2: to be considered meaningful. If they're meaningful for you, bam.

833
00:42:46,969 --> 00:42:49,859
Speaker 2: And do not say that looking at Instagram is meaningful

834
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 2: for you. You're lying. You're lying to yourself. You're lying

835
00:42:53,580 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 2: to Chuck. You're lying to me. You're lying to everybody.

836
00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: I agree with that.

837
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,969
Speaker 2: I think that's it for boredom for now, huh? Yeah.

838
00:43:02,310 --> 00:43:03,770
Speaker 2: That was a good one. I like this one.

839
00:43:04,170 --> 00:43:04,509
Speaker 1: I did too.

840
00:43:05,250 --> 00:43:06,970
Speaker 2: And I think since this is the end of boredom,

841
00:43:07,030 --> 00:43:08,350
Speaker 2: it's time then for listener mail.

842
00:43:10,430 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 1: That's right. This is short and sweet. Hey guys, long

843
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 1: time listener, first time writer. This is about the irony

844
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,540
Speaker 1: episode from Nick. I once had a debate about the

845
00:43:18,580 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 1: song Ironic that you guys talked about from Alanis Morissette.

846
00:43:21,260 --> 00:43:21,820
Speaker 2: Yeah.

847
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:25,060
Speaker 1: An English teacher I worked with. I argued that it

848
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,940
Speaker 1: is a purely ironic song because it's called Ironic and

849
00:43:28,980 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 1: contains no irony. And irony is flipping expectations around. to

850
00:43:33,219 --> 00:43:35,819
Speaker 1: a certain degree on a meta level, I really think

851
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,700
Speaker 1: the song is pure irony. Never really thought about that.

852
00:43:38,940 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

853
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. Thanks for the great content, guys. I used to

854
00:43:41,620 --> 00:43:44,430
Speaker 1: have playlists for my AP students to listen to for

855
00:43:44,469 --> 00:43:47,430
Speaker 1: introducing subjects and for review, and they enjoyed it, and

856
00:43:47,450 --> 00:43:49,170
Speaker 1: it helped lay the foundation for their studies. And that

857
00:43:49,210 --> 00:43:49,629
Speaker 1: is Nick.

858
00:43:50,170 --> 00:43:52,890
Speaker 2: Thanks a lot, Nick. That was just an all-around great email.

859
00:43:53,530 --> 00:43:57,100
Speaker 2: It's not very often that our minds are just completely blown,

860
00:43:57,140 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 2: but I'm pretty sure you just did it for both

861
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,930
Speaker 2: of us. Yes. If you want to be like Nick

862
00:44:01,989 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 2: and blow our minds, please do. You can send it

863
00:44:05,500 --> 00:44:08,840
Speaker 2: in an email to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.

864
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 1: Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

865
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

866
00:44:19,540 --> 00:44:21,340
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.