1 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to Dick it happened here, a podcast for the 2 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: Thing is Not Well, We're here has temporarily been relocated 3 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: to the UK once again. Oh what am awful place 4 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: to be? Lookay, Yeah, I'm your host Mia Wong, and 5 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: today with me to talk about things in the Kingdom 6 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,119 Speaker 1: that is united for some reason is Nick, who is 7 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: a resident nurse there? Nick. How are you doing? I'm 8 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:29,639 Speaker 1: doing all right? Um, a lot better for being a 9 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: holiday right now. Yeah, yeah, getting getting, getting to escape 10 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: the sort of dismal swamp of rainy, rainy Island. Yeah. 11 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: So on the other hand, there are things that are 12 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 1: in motion on Turf Island which are interesting and cool, 13 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: and that is on the Okay, So I have no 14 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: idea once again when this is going to come out, 15 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: Like this could be coming out like four weeks from now, 16 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: like there could be six more prime ministers, like who 17 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: knows what's going to happen. Um yeah, I six could 18 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,119 Speaker 1: be rich. He's outlasted the Lettus unlike our last one. 19 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: But you know, sorry to anyone who's up to British 20 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: political memes, that's going to be arcane and inscrutable And 21 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: I'm not collecting we we we we we ran them 22 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: through a like two hour British Politics boot camp a 23 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, so hopefully they still remember. Yeah. 24 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: But so the reason thing is so on on on 25 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 1: the day we are recording, there are a bunch of 26 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: strikes going on in the UK. There have been a 27 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:36,759 Speaker 1: bunch of strikes going on in the UK for a while. 28 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: They keep doing this weird okay, this is my this 29 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: is my, my, my, my, my, I'm gonna I'm gonna 30 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:44,479 Speaker 1: do my one bit of what what are you guys 31 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: doing strategically thing, which is okay. So they keep having 32 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: these strikes and then they'll like go off strike for 33 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: like three weeks as like a quote side of good 34 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: faith for their negotiations, and then nothing happens and they 35 00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: go back on strike and it's like, well, okay, like 36 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: you could not do this. Yeah, so straight strikes have 37 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: been continuing, and yeah, I wanted to talk to you 38 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: about some of the nurses strikes that's been happening and 39 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: about the sort of organizing that's been going on, because 40 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: that's what's been really cool and not reported on enough. 41 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: I guess the place that I want to start with 42 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: this is with the last art of deck, Well, I mean, 43 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: I guess there's been a lot of usteria the UK, 44 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: but I want to kind of start with the last 45 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: sort of decade of austerity and the damage that's been 46 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 1: doing to the healthcare system and what what what that's 47 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: looked like on your end. So there's a couple of 48 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: ways it's manifests. One is like there's been a centralization 49 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: of healthcare services, are closing down of hospitals and making 50 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: larger hospitals and contain more and more specialties. So, for instance, 51 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: my hospital that I work in as a result, came 52 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: about the closing downs about I think three smaller hospitals. 53 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: She is, I mean eas hospital that was lost. We 54 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: lost about at least a hundred beds for each one 55 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: that was created that centralized into our one. There's been 56 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: massive cut back in like lack of funding and preventive 57 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 1: healthcare and community healthcare. One interesting example of how that 58 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: manifests is like they shifted the provision of community healthcare 59 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: and social care for new mothers to being run by 60 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: the local council that's like local either county or city 61 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: even larger cities level government, and then they would put 62 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: out the process where rather than just it goes automatically 63 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: to the NHS. It needs to be put out to 64 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: tender and give like charities or nonprofits or even private 65 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: healthcare providers an opportunity to bid on providing the service. 66 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: That's and that's a terrible winner on the system. Oh no, 67 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: it's absolutely insane. It's absolutely insane. And what and then 68 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: the end result of this is the NHS service gets 69 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: it because they're the only one that can actually credit 70 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: credibly provide the service. But they have to essentially massively 71 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: underestimate how much it will cost to run in order 72 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: to run to run the service, Oh, because they have 73 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: to they have to underbid the other services that are 74 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 1: not going to Yeah. Wow, that is a terribly designed system. Yeah. 75 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: And then there's also like introduction of like trying to 76 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: in order to cut back on the backlogs that like 77 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: the cutting down and services have created via like outsourcing 78 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: some healthcare, some surgeries and stuff to private healthcare, private hospitals. 79 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: But then they're able to just pick and choose the easiest, 80 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: least risky, and most profitable ones. And of course, any 81 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: any complications that result of the problems with surgery, issues 82 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,919 Speaker 1: with treatment, adverse reactions, the surgeons fucking it up because 83 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: they were working overnight in order to get extra in 84 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: order to get some extra money after doing a shift 85 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: in the NHS hospital, which is often the case, then 86 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: falls back on the NHS proper and then in terms 87 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:15,359 Speaker 1: of workforce the average on average, this isn't just nurses. 88 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: There's an universal pay scale using the NHS for everyone 89 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 1: called the Gender for Change. There's a pastory prime that 90 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: confusing name, but the reason for that is it was 91 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: a very much it was a less unified system before, 92 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 1: like the early two thousands, everyone knew it was messed up. 93 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: There was a big pushed by unions and also by 94 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: government who wants to rationalize the whole thing to make 95 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: it make more sense in theory, tie people's wage to 96 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: what they were actually doing more directly in a more 97 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 1: consistent way. Hence Agenda for Change because there was an 98 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: agenda for changing of what's happening, but it's been in 99 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: place for over twenty years. Not so the name doesn't 100 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: make sense, but basically everyone on Agenda for Change has 101 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: on average in the last ten years, had a twenty 102 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: percent pay cut in real terms. Then doctors and dentists, 103 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: because they're special boys love them, but you know, have 104 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: on a different pay scale, and junior doctors on average 105 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: have had an even worse paycut of about twenty eight percent. 106 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,159 Speaker 1: Then there are strikes. There are on strike like right now. Yeah, 107 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: they're on strike right now. And unlike my union, they 108 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 1: haven't pissed about the government. They've gone straight to a 109 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 1: full three days no derogations, the term for agreeing to 110 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 1: not provide services for life or in order to protect 111 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: patient safety, which the RCN went in for in a 112 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: big way. In some ways they've got it a bit 113 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: easier and that they can just say, oh, the consultants 114 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: will do all of this, like that is to you 115 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:44,919 Speaker 1: to translate into a mouth to make and healthcare that 116 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 1: would be attending. And so this strike of junior doctors 117 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 1: includes everyone from like their first two years post medical 118 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: school what we call foundation years. Possibly that'd be equivalent 119 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: to internship in America, and they and our registrars, so 120 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 1: people who rested in specialty training equivalent of a like 121 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: a resident. I believe the government tried to persuade them 122 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: to call off in order to go into talks, but 123 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: they hadn't made a big show in promise of like 124 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: we will in good faith, we will call off strikes 125 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: and go into negotiations if the government agrees to have 126 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: serious formal talks. So they were able to just say 127 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: to the government, no, you're putting too many preconditions on 128 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: these talks. We're not doing it until you make until 129 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: you stop messing us about, whereas unfortunately my union, the RCM, 130 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: is addicted to protecting the image of nursing and like 131 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: acting in good faith even when they're dealing with someone 132 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: who have no intention of dealing in good faith. Yeah, which, yeah, 133 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: that that that I don't know as a strategy. It's 134 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: really frustrating because you just didn't get like you can 135 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: just get locked in endless negotiations, which is nothing is happening, 136 00:07:55,480 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: And yeah, it's really frustrating to pricing the SOCLE compact. This. 137 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: The RCM in England, Wales and Scotland Northern ireland's a 138 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: slightly different story. I've never had a strike until last year. 139 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: Historically the RCN was an anti strike union. Wait white, yeah, yes, 140 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: that's the thing in the UK. Yeah, like I know, 141 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: I know, like the US has a lot of weird, 142 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: not very good unions, but like, I don't know, I'm 143 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 1: notch ever heard of me? Really, that's yes. Wow, So 144 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: that changed either in the nineties or the early two thousands. 145 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: I honestly can't remember when I tried to look it up. 146 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: But whenever you trying to search this stuff, just your 147 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: search results are like flooded by stuff around the latest round. 148 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 1: What you're gonna understand is the RCN. It's one hundred 149 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: and six years old. It only became a union though 150 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: about fifty years ago then. So the RCN is both 151 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: the union and a professional body in that okay. It 152 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: also does stuff around developing, developing nursing best practice, research 153 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: and that kind of thing, and that's what it existed 154 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: as originally. So yeah, like a like a professional association. Yeah, okay, exactly, 155 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: And so it still has a dual structure of its 156 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: union side, it's professional body side that like develops nursing 157 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: practice and stuff like that. Yeah. Well, I guess, I guess. 158 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 1: I guess that that raises the sort of question of like, 159 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 1: like what was so like unbelievably like what what what 160 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: what happened like such that for the first time in 161 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: like one hundred and whatever years, they finally went on strike. 162 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 1: So it's partially amount of breaking points. The nursing turnover 163 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: in the UK's absolute dog shit um. Thousands of people 164 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: leave the profession every year. There's this massive pay cut 165 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 1: that's happened over the last ten years. Nurse and nursing 166 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: was always underpaid in the UK. To be frank, there's 167 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: also then there was the cut in the nursing bursary 168 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: about five years ago. So it used to be the 169 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: government would pay for you to train as a nurse. 170 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:18,719 Speaker 1: It would also give you not not like enough to 171 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: be equivalent of the ways of the work you were doing. 172 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 1: Nursing in the UK has a far higher amount of 173 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: practice hours than it does in the US. I believe 174 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: it's part of the degree and like a lot of 175 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: that time you're sensedly working as a as a hate 176 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: c A or CNA as you'd say in America. Can 177 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: you explain what that is for people who don't know 178 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: like medical stuff, so hate a healthcare assistant or what 179 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: was it CNA certified nursing assistant. I think what stands 180 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: for is essentially a healthcare worker who does a range 181 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: of like what you describe as nursing tasks button but 182 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: not the role of a registered nurse. So they would 183 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:11,439 Speaker 1: assist with mobilizing patients, monitoring observations hygiene, potentially taking bloods, 184 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: and some investigations such as setting up an ECG, but 185 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: they wouldn't do more advanced investigations ristanizement, care planning, medication management, 186 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: assessing of patients and that kind of stuff. So yeah, 187 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 1: like about five years ago, the nursing bursary was cut, 188 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: so then it's became as with every other degree having 189 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: to take out a student loan in order to pursue it. 190 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,839 Speaker 1: And then in twenty eighteen there was a particularly disastrous 191 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: pay deal where the RCM in a number of ways 192 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: just absolutely fun. Not just the RCM, the other healthcare 193 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: unions representing unions representing healthcare workers also messed up hutely, 194 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: but like they really fumbled the ball. It resulted arguably 195 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: some people describe it as the leadership setting out the membership. 196 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: And then after that there was a general, an emergency 197 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: general meeting called the RCM wh's resulted in the entire 198 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 1: executive being booted. Wow um around this type leading up 199 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: to that, they're being like increasing like grassroots militancy around nurses. 200 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: Recognizing that this was an awful situation, we were in there. 201 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: This also then resulted in like there were various grassroots 202 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: campaigns started, such as like a Nurses United UK. We 203 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: started employing organizing the UK to like act to take nurses. 204 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: There was a concerted effort to put presses on the 205 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 1: RCM by like I would say, a radical minority, but 206 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: one that represented like a general general feeling among nurses 207 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 1: on the on the front line to push for the 208 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: RCN to take a more radical stance. Then at the 209 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: same time, I don't know if this was covered in 210 00:12:55,840 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 1: your talk in about English politics you're to our deep dive, 211 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: But Northern Ireland didn't have a government at this point 212 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: because as they are now, the DUP and chin Fain 213 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: had fallen out and legally it has to be both 214 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: of them together as the largest republican and largest unionist 215 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: party Unionists in pro the United Kingdom Party after former government, 216 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: which meant it was impossible legally for any for any 217 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: pay rise in the NHS in Northern Ireland at that time, 218 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: so there was not a government that could legally enact 219 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: one great and this was and this resulted in the 220 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen the first strikes by the RCM. Ever, and 221 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: also like the first nursing strikes in the NHS in 222 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: a very long time. I might be wrong about this. 223 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: I think the last ones were like in the eighties 224 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: or the seventies. I might I might be wrong about 225 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: this though. And this was both called by the r 226 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: and one of the other biggest trade unions in the 227 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: probably the biggest trade union as it's a generalist trade 228 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: union in the NHS Unison. They both called strikes at 229 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: this time and they were significant factor in getting the 230 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: Northern Ireland government back meeting alongside other things. I'm not 231 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: going to give ourselves all the credit, but it was 232 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: a significant factor. It off it gets overlooked and actually 233 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: having any pay eyes and acted the tool on the 234 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: in Northern Ireland just to clear for every second this 235 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 1: strike was a specifically like a strike that was happening 236 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: for nurses norther in Ireland. Yeah, in twenty nineteen. I 237 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: think it's very important. I think that triggered something that 238 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: she see changed in the RCNA. That was kind of 239 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: the culminating point of like trying to push for a 240 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: more militant attitude on the RCN. And it really like 241 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: broke the thug gates open and made what's happening now 242 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: possible even though a lot of nurses in England particularly, 243 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: I can't come on on the situation in Wales on 244 00:14:57,960 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: Northern Ireland, like how much people know about you by 245 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: what was going on, But like a lot of use 246 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: in England didn't even know about it. And when I 247 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: was going around the wards pushing for people to vote 248 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: in favor of the strike action, a lot of people 249 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: didn't weren't aware that that had been a thing that 250 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: had happened until I told them about it. Because people 251 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: in England, as Moss, as England is determined to keep 252 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: Northern Ireland, don't know what's going on, and not into 253 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: any degree to a terrifying degree. Sometimes I would say, yeah, 254 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: that that sounds like it sounds like a thing that 255 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: happens when you're a colonial power, et cetera, et cetera. Well, 256 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: like I mean like like there was I feel like, well, 257 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: our equivalent isn't the right term. But like around the 258 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 1: same time, like people in Puerto Rico like ran out 259 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: their government and almost no one in the US, like 260 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: like in the commental US has like ever heard of it. 261 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, I would say if yeah, if there's 262 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: not bombs going off in Northern Ireland, people in England 263 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: not paying attention. I would say, yeah, that makes sense, 264 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: and it's also really depressing. Yeah, I would like I 265 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: would say Norman Islands in the sub maybe in some ways, 266 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: and the bets in Puerto Rico in that it actually 267 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: has a degree of political representation in the main in 268 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: the Westminster and starts, even though obviously should have its 269 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: independence and might, but yeah, doesn't even have that as 270 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: my understanding. Yeah, And I mean there's a whole there's 271 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: a there's a whole thing there, Like the Puerto Rican 272 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: statehood people are like weird reactionaries. The independence people are cooler. 273 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: But also there's this whole sort of I don't know, 274 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: there's there's a kind of like there's a kind of 275 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: paralysis anywhere. It's like that, And it's like DC is 276 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: kind of similar, where there's a whole sort of there's 277 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: this kind of paralysis where like nothing's ever going to 278 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: be done about it other than the US just like 279 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 1: basically imposing whatever random colonial governor that they've just I 280 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: did to bring in as an emergency manager or whatever. Yes, sorrkay, 281 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: but we are getting we are getting far afield from 282 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: it as before I put yet yeah, something about Nomanala 283 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: that will piss off everyone. Yeah, it's like I didn't 284 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: even know even less about Bulscott about Puerto Rico. Yeah yeah, 285 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: I would also say okay, like so so so people 286 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: don't get mad at me, Like all of the US 287 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: is a quality. It's like the substitute of difference between 288 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: New York and Hawaii and Puerto Rico was when like 289 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 1: when when we took it over. But yeah, yeah, okay, 290 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: so we're we're turning to we're turning actually well you know, okay, 291 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: all right, I will I will take this complete interruption 292 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 1: of the flows as a point to do an ad break. 293 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: So do you know what else is an extensive colonial 294 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:58,959 Speaker 1: power that who's might cannot be checked. It's it's the 295 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: products and services that support this podcast. Yea, all right, 296 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 1: and we are back. Yeah. So I wanted to move 297 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: from the Northern Ireland strikes to talk about the sort 298 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 1: of broader strikes that I've been happening in the last 299 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 1: like my understanding about a year or so, yes, okay, yeah, yeah, 300 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 1: is it going longer than that? Yeah, we talk about 301 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 1: like you it's like what happens to move from the 302 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: Northern Ireland strikes to the current situation. So do you 303 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 1: mean with specifically NHS strikes or like in the UK, 304 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: specifically with the NHS strikes. But I guess we can 305 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 1: talk about the broader wave if you want to too. 306 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: So obviously all the ship with COVID happened, Yeah, and 307 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 1: then we came to the payoffer of last year, and 308 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 1: at this point they've been general building of an attitude 309 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 1: that we don't just need a decent pay rise that 310 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 1: keeps up inflation, we need one that goes towards restoring 311 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: lost pay. And the RCM leadership after the kicking out 312 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: of the entire executive in twenty eighteen kind of on 313 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: the back foot, kind of like wanting to a piece 314 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:25,919 Speaker 1: the membership go along with it a bit more. Also, 315 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: we had knew General Secretary Pat Colin, who was the 316 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: secretary of the Northern Ireland section of the RCM during 317 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:39,199 Speaker 1: this Northern Island strikes, took a more militant position in 318 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 1: the pain negotion in the joint union pain negotiations with 319 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: the government towards the end towards the beginning of last year, 320 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 1: where the RCN took a position of we need inflation 321 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: plus five percent. Now this is a bit of an 322 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 1: inside baseball which like I don't think I've ever seen 323 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: like officially, but what I know from various people involved 324 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 1: in these things and like statements by different unions, what 325 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: my understanding it is the biggest of the trade unions 326 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: in the NHS in general. The Unison put forward line 327 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: it was only willing to go for a generic significantly 328 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 1: better than inflation pay ballot of like pay demand from 329 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: the government, which the RCM was due to like changing 330 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: attitude of its membership of what happened when it accepted 331 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: ship a bad deal last time, was not willing to 332 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: go for and a result of the RCM splitting from 333 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: the Joint Union Like Pay Council like the Joint Union 334 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: Council over this issue, which then the offer the government's 335 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: pay thing came in. It said we will do a 336 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: flat one thousand, four hundred for everyone, like on all bands, 337 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,439 Speaker 1: so not a percentage like it normally does. And you know, 338 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: to be honest, if it was a significantly higher amount 339 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: that was bigger than inflation for the lower bands, like 340 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: the lower paid works in the NHS, wouldn't be the 341 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,360 Speaker 1: worst thing in the world. But this one thousand, four 342 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: hundred isn't good enough for anyone. And while I'm talking 343 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: about this, I'm talking about specifically in England. It was 344 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: slightly different in Wales and Scotland. I think generally slightly better, 345 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 1: but still far lower than it should have been, than 346 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,199 Speaker 1: it needs to be. And so the RCM was the 347 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: first of the unions in the NHS to say it 348 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 1: was balloting, it was doing a paid ballot, and this 349 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: kind of sprung on the other unions, like a week, 350 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: two weeks, three weeks later all said that they were 351 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: doing it as well. The RCM also at the same 352 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: time hired a load of organized like paid organizers to 353 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:54,479 Speaker 1: support the paid ballot effort. And what I'll say is 354 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: obviously paid organizers. There no substitute for rank and files militancy. 355 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: But it was very helpful, to be honest, because I 356 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: think there was a lot of like milited, a lot 357 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 1: of milited sentiment of the RCM. But although there were 358 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: some like rank and file initiatives which had had a 359 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: massive impact on like pushing the RCM to a stronger position, 360 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: I don't I don't think that could have materialized, and 361 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 1: there wasn't enough people like actually who had an idea 362 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 1: about organizing, about what it meant to go out and 363 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: push through this kind of thing to get what we 364 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: needed in that time frame. Sadly I wish that wasn't 365 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 1: the case, but I do think these paid organizers much 366 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: is not what I think the correct model for workplace 367 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 1: organizing is did help a lot, and this then resulted 368 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 1: in the RCM strike ballot passing in one hundred and 369 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 1: seventy six NHS trusts across the UK. Let me just yeah, 370 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: check that I've got that right, yeah, which is huge. 371 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: It's not all, but it is. It's over fifty percent. 372 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 1: It's pretty much all trusts in Scotland, all trust in Scotland, 373 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 1: all trusts in Northern Ireland, I think all bar one 374 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 1: or two in Wales, and the majority in England. It's 375 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,479 Speaker 1: also worth pointing out the ones that didn't pass it. 376 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: They didn't pass by less than a percentage. Wow, they 377 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: felt they didn't pass by like pen votes in all cases. 378 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: I think the one in Wales that didn't pass it 379 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: was literally by three votes. And it's also worked with 380 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 1: I think in two thousand and sixteen or two fifteen, 381 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 1: anti union legislation was passed by the Conservative government, which 382 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: raised the bar you need in order to have to 383 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: have legal strike industrial action, and under the law as 384 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,159 Speaker 1: it existed a decade ago, every NHS trust that the 385 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: RCM ballot didn't would have passed the ballot. Also unfortunate timing. 386 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: It was happening at the same time as the posts, 387 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: as postal strikes were happening, and in the UK industrial 388 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,400 Speaker 1: ballots for industrial actions to be legal have to happen 389 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 1: by post A little bit sad. Yeah, it's like timing, guys. Yeah, 390 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 1: full power to you. Oh god, I wish the timing 391 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: it slightly different. Yeah. Yeah. And of all the of 392 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,959 Speaker 1: all the trust, of all the unions in the art, 393 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: in the NHS that were passing ballots, the RCM was 394 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: the most successful. We passed it in significantly more places 395 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: than other unions did. Um to my shock, to be honest, 396 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: because like when I was going around balloting or like 397 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: um talking to people, like on my days off, like 398 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: going on the wards talking talk to people while I 399 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: was at work, Everyone's like, yes it was in other unions, 400 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: like yes, I'm voting for it. I'm waiting on tender 401 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: Hicks to have my ballot. When's my ballot arriving. Why 402 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: is my union not opened their ballot yet, and so 403 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,959 Speaker 1: like when particularly like other unions didn't pass in my trust, 404 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 1: I was really shocked. I was really confused, And it 405 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 1: seems like a lot of them didn't actually want to 406 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: fight to a degree in that like they were opening 407 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: it because the RCN had opened it. I'm certain people 408 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 1: in those unions might discrib me, but that's really I 409 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 1: find it really hard to understand how these unions that 410 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 1: have historically they're all none of them are that that militant, 411 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 1: you know, but they all have a history of strikes 412 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,959 Speaker 1: and other sectors or organizing for this, they'd never had 413 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 1: been anti strike unions unis in particular, it was there 414 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 1: came about like several unions being collamorated, like joining together, 415 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: including unions that had been founded by nurses in the 416 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 1: seventies in reaction to like the RCN being anti strike 417 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: and going on like that was the last big wave 418 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: of nursing strikes at that time. So that really shocked me. 419 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,479 Speaker 1: This has been it can happen here Join us tomorrow 420 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 1: for a part two of the interview, and in the 421 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: meantime you can find us on Twitter and Instagram at 422 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: happen Here pod, and you can find us on Twitter 423 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 1: and Instagram at cool Zone Media. It could Happen Here 424 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: as a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts 425 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 1: from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zonemedia dot 426 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 1: com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 427 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources 428 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: for It could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zonemedia 429 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,400 Speaker 1: dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.