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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session three oh three of the

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our

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Speaker 1: conversation after a word from our sponsors. Due to the

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Speaker 1: dedicated work of so many brilliant scienceists like our guests today,

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Speaker 1: we have learned and continue to learn, so much about

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Speaker 1: how the traumatic experiences of our parents, grandparents, and other

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Speaker 1: ancestors are passed down. We're diving into an exploration of

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Speaker 1: intergenerational trauma with our guests today. Doctor Bianca Jones Morland

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Speaker 1: is a neuroscientist and Herbert and Florence Irving Assistant Professor

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Speaker 1: of cell Research at the Zuckermann Institute at Columbia University

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Speaker 1: in New York City. Doctor Marlon studies how information learned

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Speaker 1: can be passed down to future generations through transgenerational epigenetic inheritance.

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Speaker 1: It's all about understanding how traits and behaviors are passed

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Speaker 1: on through generations, shaping how we act and behave. In

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Speaker 1: our conversation today, Marlon breaks down the science behind generational

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Speaker 1: trauma and how trauma manifests in our bodies, brains, and

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Speaker 1: everyday lives. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation,

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Speaker 1: please share it with us on social media using the

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Speaker 1: hashtag TBG in session or join us over in the

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Speaker 1: sister Circle. To talk more in depth about the episode,

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Speaker 1: you can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 2: Here's our conversation.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today, doctor Marlond,

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me so. I'd love

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Speaker 1: if you could get a storted by talking about what

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Speaker 1: you do as a neuroscienceist and how you get interested

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Speaker 1: in neuroscience and behavior.

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Speaker 3: What I do as a neuroscientist. I really think I

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Speaker 3: have an amazing job because I get to ask questions

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Speaker 3: that interest me about education, about learning, about stress, and

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Speaker 3: about survival. And I have an amazing talented group of

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Speaker 3: students and trainees and fellow scientists who dive in and

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Speaker 3: really look at the answers, the mechanisms, by logical aspects

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Speaker 3: of these questions that we.

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Speaker 4: Ask, how did you get interested in it?

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Speaker 3: How did I get interested in neuroscience? I started off

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Speaker 3: studying adolescent education, so I was a seventh through twelfth

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Speaker 3: grade teacher in biology. And what I began to note

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Speaker 3: during my studies as a teacher is that some of

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Speaker 3: my students I could almost tell how their day was

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Speaker 3: going based on their attention in my class. And I

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Speaker 3: really be clear with speaking about my students because it

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Speaker 3: wasn't as if those that came from quote unquote bad

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Speaker 3: homes were quote unquote bad performing in school. No, there

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Speaker 3: were students who were coming from difficult situations and I

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Speaker 3: couldn't get them to pay attention in my class. And

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Speaker 3: that makes total sense, because if you're thinking about whether

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Speaker 3: or not your siblings are safe, whether not your mom

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Speaker 3: is okay, or how stable your household is at home,

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Speaker 3: it would not make evolutionary sound sense. You to be

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Speaker 3: worrying about differential equations when you're worried about what's going

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Speaker 3: on at home. And so I really say it as

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Speaker 3: in honoring their experiences, but I noticed that there were

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Speaker 3: certain ways I could pick up what was going on

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Speaker 3: in the household based on what was happening in the classroom,

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Speaker 3: and it did affect their performance the way that we

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Speaker 3: standardize as teachers, and I really wanted to look into

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Speaker 3: how to optimize how stress changes learning in the brain.

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Speaker 3: And I realized as educators we didn't have much information

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Speaker 3: as to how the brain worked, and so it was

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Speaker 3: almost as if there were these scientists that had this information,

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Speaker 3: but they didn't speak to educators, and so how do

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Speaker 3: we bridge that gap? And so instead of bridging that gap,

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Speaker 3: I became a neuroscientist and now explore how the brain

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Speaker 3: adapts to parenthood for optimization of parents, how the brain

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Speaker 3: adapts to stress and trauma, and what that looks like

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Speaker 3: to inform our kids for many generations to come.

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Speaker 1: So had you known you wanted to go to school

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Speaker 1: beyond where you had gone to become a teacher, or

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Speaker 1: was it only in exploring these questions that you decided

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go back to school and do something else.

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Speaker 3: Now, Oh my gosh, No, I didn't know at all

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Speaker 3: that it was an option. My heart breaks a little

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Speaker 3: bit every time I say that, to think that I'm

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Speaker 3: here where I am now, I'm a professor at a

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Speaker 3: prestigious institution, and I didn't know this was an option.

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Speaker 3: I thought, if you loved biology, you could go into

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Speaker 3: med school and become a doctor, or you become a

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Speaker 3: science teacher. And the way that I understood doctor working

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Speaker 3: in a hospital, I didn't fought that poll an educator

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Speaker 3: was like, well, this makes sense. I guess this is

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Speaker 3: what I will do. I respect so many teachers that

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Speaker 3: really go through and dedicate their lives to that. And

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Speaker 3: it was only as I was studying to be a

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Speaker 3: teacher biology teacher at a due major, I actually did

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Speaker 3: biology and adolescent education, so I dove straight into biology

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Speaker 3: that I realized, like, oh, there's this whole facet. You

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Speaker 3: become a scientist through something called a PhD. That's not

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Speaker 3: just a doctor of philosophy and thinking about philosophy. You

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Speaker 3: actually can do hands on where gloves and do science,

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Speaker 3: and that's a career choice. Like my professors who taught

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Speaker 3: me had PhDs and it opened up this whole realm

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Speaker 3: that I didn't know existed. Yeah, and it led me

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Speaker 3: to where I am now.

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Speaker 4: Nice, Nice, thank you appreciating it.

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Speaker 1: So, something that you spend a lot of time studying

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Speaker 1: and that you know has become more of a term

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Speaker 1: people or familiar with recently is transgenerational epigenetics or generational trauma.

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Speaker 1: Those sound like very big words. I think that out

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Speaker 1: of us right, Like, what in the world does any

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Speaker 1: of them mean? So I wonder if you could give

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Speaker 1: us like a one oh one. What are we talking

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Speaker 1: about when we say transgenerational epigenetic.

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Speaker 3: Yes, transgenerational, Let's break the whole word down, transgenerational trans

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Speaker 3: meaning across generational, cross generations. When we talk about transgenerational,

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Speaker 3: what we're really referring to is a person. Let's talk

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Speaker 3: about humans for a second. So a person their grandchild

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Speaker 3: would be considered transgenerational to them. Their child would be

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Speaker 3: considered intergenerational. And the reason that we highlight those two

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Speaker 3: differences is because when we're speaking about something being passed

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Speaker 3: on through generations. My mother can pass something on to

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Speaker 3: me genetically or through a conversation at the dinner table,

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Speaker 3: because I grew up with her because I was constantly

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Speaker 3: around her. Whereas in any situations a grandparent, you could

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Speaker 3: actually be born never knowing your grandparent. You can't be

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Speaker 3: born never knowing your mother or never really interacting or

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Speaker 3: having at least some connection with your mother. So intergenerational

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Speaker 3: is mom offspring, dad offspring. Transgenerational are their grandkids. So

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Speaker 3: we have that part down. So transgenerational, epigenetic, what does

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Speaker 3: that mean? Genetic? Our DNA? What makes up who we are?

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Speaker 3: That's the same in every one of the cells in

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Speaker 3: our body. Epigenetics means above the genome, and it really

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Speaker 3: is just describing these markers we'll call them right now

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Speaker 3: that scientists observed in the genomes. What does this mean?

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Speaker 3: Our genetics are the same in every cell in our body,

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Speaker 3: which means your DNA and your liver and the DNA

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Speaker 3: and your skin and the DNA and your eyes those

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Speaker 3: are all the same DNA. But how do we have

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Speaker 3: liver cells, eye cells and we don't have teeth growing

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Speaker 3: in our eyes. It's because certain parts of our genome

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Speaker 3: can be quote unquote read so scene or quote unquote

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Speaker 3: unread or unseen, and that's the epigenetic component. There's certain

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Speaker 3: markers that say you're a liver cell, so make your liver.

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Speaker 3: Do your a liver thing. And you're an eye cell,

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Speaker 3: so don't make liver components of your DNA. And those

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Speaker 3: epigenetic markers are what differentiate certain cells from another. When

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Speaker 3: we talk about transgenerational across generations, epigenetic above the genome inheritance,

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Speaker 3: it's what an experience and a grandparent changes those markers

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Speaker 3: that say, become this, don't become that, and those changes

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Speaker 3: are inherited in the next generation. Because we thought for

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Speaker 3: a long time those changes happen, but it doesn't get

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Speaker 3: passed on to the next generation because it's not actually

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Speaker 3: the DNA, it's just stuff around the DNA. We're coming

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Speaker 3: to see that those things around the DNA, or things

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Speaker 3: that change those things around the DNA are somehow they

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Speaker 3: passed down And this is really the crux of the

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Speaker 3: Marlin lab and what we study.

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Speaker 1: So we don't necessarily have any firm answers yet, but

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Speaker 1: this is a part of what you are learning. We

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Speaker 1: do know that it happens, and a part of what

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Speaker 1: you're studying is like.

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Speaker 3: How this happened, and particularly how this happens in response

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Speaker 3: to stress and trauma and how much of this is

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Speaker 3: adaptive versus maladaptive. This is really what we focus on.

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Speaker 4: Got it? Got it?

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Speaker 1: So, you know, we talk a lot about in psychology

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Speaker 1: around like trauma getting tramped in the brain and like

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Speaker 1: our body experiencing trauma. Can you talk about what actually

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Speaker 1: happens in the brain when we have had a traumatic experience.

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Speaker 3: What happens in the brain when we have a traumatic experience.

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Speaker 3: I'll start off by saying, I'm a firm believer that

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Speaker 3: biology wants us to survive and thrive. So any change

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Speaker 3: the body has is a hopeful potential adaptation to the stimulus.

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Speaker 3: What we've come to see both as humans as you

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Speaker 3: see this as we live on this earth and walk

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Speaker 3: throughout life, but also as biologists, is that certain stressors,

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Speaker 3: certain traumas change the way we respond to future stressors

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Speaker 3: and traumas because we've learned earned a different response. So

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Speaker 3: that learning mechanism, that's beautiful, that's in the brain, that's

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Speaker 3: well established, Like I was well studied, I would say,

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Speaker 3: how the brain learns, and it would make sense that

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Speaker 3: if you are Let's give an example of like you're

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Speaker 3: walking down the block and all of a sudden, you

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Speaker 3: walk past a baseball field and a ball comes whizzing

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Speaker 3: behind you, you jump back. The next time you walk past

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Speaker 3: that baseball field, you're going to keep your eyes open

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Speaker 3: both ways as you're crossing the sheet. That heightened alertness

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Speaker 3: that will may be very much aware of my surroundings

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Speaker 3: is essential for your survival. You to get to work

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Speaker 3: looking cute and wherever you're going and not get hit

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Speaker 3: by this baseball. But when you're walking throughout life and

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Speaker 3: you're not just walking past a baseball field and you

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Speaker 3: feel that constant at to be aware something that could happen,

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Speaker 3: this is when it becomes maladaptive. So this is what

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Speaker 3: really us as neuroscientists, the group of us that are

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Speaker 3: studying these facets, are really looking at what does it

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Speaker 3: mean to learn one experience, generalize it to experiences that

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Speaker 3: really it doesn't fit, and then potentially even take those

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Speaker 3: memories of that one bad experience that could have been

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Speaker 3: helpful in learning something although it was unfortunate experience, and

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Speaker 3: passing it down to the next generation where they don't

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Speaker 3: live anywhere in air baseball court, but they feel that

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Speaker 3: tension every time they walk down the street.

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Speaker 1: So many things are going on in my head as

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Speaker 1: you're talking about this, doctor Rylan, and I know you've

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Speaker 1: also talked a lot about racism as a traumatic experience

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Speaker 1: in how that really changes the DNA and changes all

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Speaker 1: of this the operating matter as black people, right, Like

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Speaker 1: when you have had racist experiences and you're kind of

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Speaker 1: looking for this baseball all the time, right, that does

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Speaker 1: change the way we kind of show up in the world.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I guess the fortunate part for my work, but

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Speaker 3: also the enforcement part of my life of the study

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Speaker 3: is that do we have exact mechanisms in which racial

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Speaker 3: stress changes these molecules that change the DNA? Know? But

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Speaker 3: we do know that. Let's speak about America. For example,

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Speaker 3: Black Americans who are descendants of slaves are more likely

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Speaker 3: to suffer from hypertension, which is high blood pressure diabetes.

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Speaker 3: Could it possibly be that what we understand and what

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Speaker 3: we know as a black population and what we experience

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Speaker 3: as a black population could have a biological ramification and mechanism.

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Speaker 3: I think it's pretty unfortunate that we haven't put our

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Speaker 3: finger on that. It's understudied in the realm of biology.

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Speaker 3: But we know it as a people group, and we

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Speaker 3: know it as Americans, as all Americans as people who

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Speaker 3: come to the marriage. People have studied America, people of

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Speaker 3: the world see this, so we see it with our eyes.

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Speaker 3: But if we don't have it written down in a

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Speaker 3: biological manner, or written down in a first primary research publication,

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Speaker 3: it's almost as if it's not really true. Dare I say?

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Speaker 3: And so, although I use mice in my studies the

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Speaker 3: questions that we're asking, I really hope that people take

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Speaker 3: that and take it to the next level. If this

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Speaker 3: is the biological mechanism that we've seen in rodents, what

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Speaker 3: could it mean to stress a rodent? Very simple, we

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Speaker 3: do something like a light foot shock, the rodent's a

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Speaker 3: little bit bent out of shape, and we see changes

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Speaker 3: in the brain and body. What could it mean for

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Speaker 3: generation on general of blatant trauma on a people group.

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Speaker 3: And I also want to specify by saying Black people

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Speaker 3: aren't the only ones traumatized by the history of slavery,

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Speaker 3: because in order to induct and induce and maintain slavery,

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Speaker 3: there's another population, the white population, that had to do that.

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Speaker 3: And I think it hurts us as a society if

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Speaker 3: we don't address that as well, not to put blame

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Speaker 3: on where we are in twenty twenty. But to acknowledge that,

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Speaker 3: ignoring that you have ancestors who for generation on generation

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Speaker 3: said yes to slavery and made a conclusion that they're

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Speaker 3: better than another people group. That's damaging. And that's the

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Speaker 3: level of damage that we also haven't dug into as

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Speaker 3: a society because it's scary to some people. And I

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Speaker 3: think we're doing damage to ourselves as a country, as

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Speaker 3: a world, as our environment by not addressing those things.

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Speaker 3: Now is exactly what my lab does. Now, we still

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Speaker 3: stick to the mice, I think, but I hope that

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Speaker 3: it informs those who take it to the next level.

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Speaker 1: More for my conversation with doctor Marlon after the break,

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Speaker 1: So can you give us some examples of how trauma

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Speaker 1: manifests in our bodies, brains, in everyday lives, Like what

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Speaker 1: does this continue to just look like.

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Speaker 3: In our model organism, the mouse. What we do is

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Speaker 3: we have an animal use its senses, so we explore

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Speaker 3: the world. All mammals right including humans, explore the world

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Speaker 3: through smell, through sound, through taste, through touch. So we

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Speaker 3: use these senses and we explore the circuits of these

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Speaker 3: senses in the brain and see if they change and

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Speaker 3: how they change with trauma, both in the parents, and

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Speaker 3: then it changed throughout generations. So we're following up on

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Speaker 3: really exciting work done by former labs that have shown

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Speaker 3: that if you have a smell, you pair that with

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Speaker 3: a light foot shock, it seems to change the structure

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Speaker 3: in the brain and somehow that's inherited pass on to

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Speaker 3: the next generation. I'm saying these things, and I know

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Speaker 3: I'm saying it as a scientist, so you may just

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Speaker 3: be like, oh, yeah, that makes sense, Okay, cool, because

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Speaker 3: she's a scientist. This is astounding. This is not something

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Speaker 3: we should take lightly and experience in a mammal is

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Speaker 3: changing the structure of the brain. Biology doesn't waste energy,

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Speaker 3: so if the structure's changing and neurons are changing, that's

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Speaker 3: a really big deal. And so this small stressor can

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Speaker 3: change the smell neurons in a mammal. And then somehow

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Speaker 3: that message is getting from the nose and these studies

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Speaker 3: we use males, it's getting from the nose to the

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Speaker 3: testicles to the sperm somehow being passed on to the

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Speaker 3: next generation. So this sperm makes the egg gets implanted

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Speaker 3: into a female who's never met anyone else, and then

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Speaker 3: her kids are born with the change in structure. Her

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Speaker 3: kids are born like with their daddy's issues.

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Speaker 2: You know our kids.

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Speaker 3: The kids are born with a change in brain structure.

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Speaker 3: And so we're really looking at what that means. Are

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Speaker 3: these offspring more anxious when they smell a smell? Are

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Speaker 3: they more sensitive to things? Or are they ready to

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Speaker 3: take on an environment in which this odor may come

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Speaker 3: into play and survive it and learn more quickly and

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Speaker 3: run away? And these are the questions that we're asking. Okay,

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Speaker 3: so I'm glad you explaining that was like, Okay, what's

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Speaker 3: actually happening with the mice? So you have this male

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Speaker 3: you then do this shock.

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Speaker 1: And then or the lead mice, I guess because it's

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Speaker 1: not my world.

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Speaker 3: So then do they become like a verse to the male?

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Speaker 3: Is that what's happening? Ah, that's a really good question.

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Speaker 3: Based on our preliminary observations, our preliminary data, we don't

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Speaker 3: see that the animals are averse to the odor. And

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Speaker 3: the experiment that we're doing. So you have an odor

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Speaker 3: hair with the light foot shock for ten seconds odor

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Speaker 3: and the light foot shock, and end of the light

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Speaker 3: foot shock, those animals will avoid they smell the oder

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Speaker 3: they go the other way. The offspring are born, and

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Speaker 3: it doesn't seem like they are affected by the odor.

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Speaker 3: But the way my student described it, what she said is, look,

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Speaker 3: when I go up to give a talk, I stand

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Speaker 3: on the platform, and I stand in front of the stage,

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Speaker 3: and I walk confidently on the stage and I present myself. Well,

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Speaker 3: you don't notice I'm sweating, like my hands are shaking,

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Speaker 3: my palms are sweating. So could it be that the

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Speaker 3: mice feel a certain kind of way and what we

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Speaker 3: see with them going left or right is just too

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Speaker 3: much above the threshold. We don't see the animals avoid.

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Speaker 3: But do they feel anxiety when going in that corner

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Speaker 3: question that we're looking into.

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Speaker 4: But their brain structures are definitely changed because.

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Speaker 3: They are consistently seeing that their brain structure. They're inherited

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Speaker 3: with a different brain structure, and they've never experienced the

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Speaker 3: odor ever. Just the sperm of their dad is the

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Speaker 3: only thing that's giving them this information.

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Speaker 1: So you study mice, but what kind of questions might

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Speaker 1: you have for somebody who was studying humans? Right, Like, oh,

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Speaker 1: what kinds of things might you wonder about humans? Based

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Speaker 1: on what you have studied in these mice?

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Speaker 3: All of our work and everything that we do. If

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Speaker 3: it doesn't go back to not just informing but like

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Speaker 3: uplifting humanity, it drops down on my list of interest

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Speaker 3: of things that go on alot. And really it's something

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Speaker 3: that we stand for, and everyone who enters a lot

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Speaker 3: knows that although we're using rodents as our model organism,

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Speaker 3: it's for the helps of informing humanity. So all of

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Speaker 3: these questions we can look up the answer of, like

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Speaker 3: what can we picture in humans in one of two ways.

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Speaker 3: I'm a neurobiologists, biologists, psychologists, all these things by training.

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Speaker 3: I will say, like a biologist first, and we need

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Speaker 3: to understand how mechanisms work before we can apply them

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Speaker 3: to humans. Ever, because historically, especially in this country, we've

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Speaker 3: jumped that and we've used humans and it's caused a

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Speaker 3: lot of damage and a lot of hurt. So I

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Speaker 3: take a lot of pride in saying that we treat

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Speaker 3: the animals, of course humanely. We treat the animals with

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Speaker 3: the utmost respect. Everything that the animals go through. My

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Speaker 3: students go through every foot shock. My students put their

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Speaker 3: finger on that change and they get the shock. First,

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Speaker 3: they understand the experience and experiment, but we have to

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Speaker 3: understand these mechanisms first, and then through the larger scientific

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Speaker 3: community through psychologists who read our work, through psychiatrists who

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Speaker 3: read our work, and through other biologists who read our work,

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Speaker 3: it grows and it strengthens, and it says, okay, well

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Speaker 3: what does this look like in humans? So that's really

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Speaker 3: first matter. We study mice on purpose. It's not because

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Speaker 3: of sort of access to humans. It's because it needs

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Speaker 3: to be done in order to do the work properly

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Speaker 3: and understand properly how humans work. And I would say, secondly,

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Speaker 3: what does it mean for humans? We explore the world

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Speaker 3: through our senses, through smell, and through hearing, and through taste,

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Speaker 3: and it seems that a lot of these mechanisms are

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Speaker 3: very similar in rodents, especially smell, taste, and hearing, the

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Speaker 3: three that we use. The site's a little bit different,

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Speaker 3: but I also wear glasses, so I feel like I

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Speaker 3: see probably as good as some them. But because we

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Speaker 3: use smell to navigate our world, in our environment and

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Speaker 3: to unlock memories and remember things, and they're associated with emotions,

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Speaker 3: we use that as a proxy from ice, and I

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Speaker 3: think it's a pretty solid proxy.

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Speaker 4: Very fascinating. I'm definitely interested in digging.

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Speaker 3: Way into your work.

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Speaker 1: So in an interview for The Washington Post, you said,

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Speaker 1: if I take a step back from being a scientist

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Speaker 1: and I'm just a fellow human in society, we see

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Speaker 1: inherited trauma playing out in many instances across the world.

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Speaker 1: It makes sense now we need to identify the biology

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Speaker 1: behind this inheritance, which will help let's better understand and

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Speaker 1: navigate the stresses of our world today. I feel like

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Speaker 1: you have spoken to a lot of it is already,

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Speaker 1: but I wonder if you could kind of say more specifically,

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Speaker 1: like what do we typically inherent from our parents and

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Speaker 1: great parents through the transgenerational epigenetics.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so the beauty, but also the struggle when it

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Speaker 3: comes to studying humans and understanding what we inherit from

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Speaker 3: our parents and our grandparents is that for some of us,

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Speaker 3: some of us who are blessed enough to have this,

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Speaker 3: we hear about the experience of our parents and our

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Speaker 3: grandparents at the dinner table. It's because we're sharing what

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Speaker 3: they went through, and we're hearing their joys and their pins,

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Speaker 3: and we're seeing the way they navigate the world, and

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Speaker 3: we mimic that, especially as developing humans. We mimic that.

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Speaker 3: So how much of these learning things that are happening

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Speaker 3: in our brain coincide with the epigenetics that have been

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Speaker 3: inherited versus it's solely being learned and solely being inherited,

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Speaker 3: And really the question of nature versus nurture, because there's

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Speaker 3: a whole other way of looking at this is if

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Speaker 3: you have a non genetically associated person, you have an

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Speaker 3: adopted sibling in the household, are there mannerisms similar to

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Speaker 3: yours and your parents? Yeah, of course they've learned that.

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Speaker 3: Are their outlooks on life? And culture? Is similar to

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Speaker 3: your parents, your biological parents, Yes, of course, like they've

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Speaker 3: learned that. And so there's one of those questions you

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Speaker 3: really want to take into consideration, like how much of

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Speaker 3: the inherited parts are also culturally inherited? Now when it

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Speaker 3: comes to what is epigenetically inherited, these are the questions

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Speaker 3: that keep us up at night when it comes to

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Speaker 3: like medicine and health. And I'm not giving you an

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Speaker 3: answer because we don't have the answer. We've gone left

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Speaker 3: and we've gone right as scientist when it comes to this,

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Speaker 3: But when it comes to certain pathologies that keep on

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Speaker 3: showing themselves in certain populations, it's hard to say that

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Speaker 3: an increase in anxiety is solely because you saw anxious

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Speaker 3: parents at the dinner table. I study a lot of

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Speaker 3: people populations in America, not directly in the lab, but

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Speaker 3: through our studies. One is the Jewish population, not just

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Speaker 3: those who left during the Holocaust, even before, when they're

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Speaker 3: still placing ghettos. There's a constant story of anxiety. Now,

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Speaker 3: how much of this is just Grandma was anxious versus

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Speaker 3: generations and generations on this genetic disposition is leading to

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Speaker 3: anxiety in the future. It's a question I can't give

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Speaker 3: you an answer to because we don't know yet. But we

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Speaker 3: see it with our eyes, and that's really what I

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Speaker 3: mean by it. But I quote we see with our eyes,

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Speaker 3: and so it's great to give really diligence to what

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Speaker 3: we already know as humans.

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Speaker 1: So something that I have always wanted because you do

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Speaker 1: hear a lot of stories around like trauma being passed intergenerationally, right,

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Speaker 1: And I have always thought if trauma can be passed intergenerationally,

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Speaker 1: can joy in humor and all of those like negative things, right,

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Speaker 1: and those be passed intergenerationally as.

435
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 3: Will That's an awesome question, and I'm going to answer

436
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 3: you now as a human and not as a scientist.

437
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,080
Speaker 3: I do believe they are because as a Black American,

438
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:53,520
Speaker 3: there's no way that we could be here for one

439
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,040
Speaker 3: for that that ability to say, you know what, you've

440
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,119
Speaker 3: gone through a lot for generations. But also strength is

441
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 3: part of something I'm going to teach you. We're going

442
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 3: to epigenetically have for survival and then therefore pass on

443
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 3: as part of our being. Does it come up, it's

444
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 3: pluses and minuses that word strength, that were diligence, that

445
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 3: were resilience. Of course they're triggering at this point, especially

446
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 3: after the last few years hearing them, but doesn't mean

447
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,400
Speaker 3: that there's not a truth in it, and so I

448
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 3: personally believe that that's the case. Now when it comes

449
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,359
Speaker 3: to what we're studying in the lab, we're really focusing

450
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 3: on the traumas first because I really hope that joys

451
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 3: passed down. And if love and joy have passed down,

452
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 3: great we have less work to do as scientists. But

453
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,360
Speaker 3: it's really the traumas that are going to need our

454
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 3: brains and our attention, our minds.

455
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 2: So what if.

456
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 1: Anything in our environment can suppress or enhanced the way

457
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 1: that our genes work.

458
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 3: Oom. This is an excellent question. It's extremely controversial. If

459
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 3: you look it up, you start seeing like, oh, gosh,

460
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,159
Speaker 3: if you eat kale, kale's the answer to everything. It's like,

461
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,000
Speaker 3: first long, you're eating it raw, and I don't even

462
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 3: eat it like that. So know what you're talking about.

463
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,920
Speaker 3: You know. It's there's a lot of cluff out there

464
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 3: that will say, like, yeah, your nage inducing or creating

465
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:09,720
Speaker 3: these changes certain dispositions. So not for everyone. For example,

466
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 3: smoking can cause epigenetic changes. But I want that to

467
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 3: be clear, not for everyone. It's not that every person

468
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 3: you study who smokes can have epigenetic changes that will

469
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 3: lead them to cancer in the future. And that's the

470
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 3: beauty of the nature versus the nurture. It's not beautiful

471
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 3: to have cancer, of course, it's not what I'm saying,

472
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 3: But the fact that not one hundred percent of the

473
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 3: people will have this disposition means that we're starting off

474
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 3: with something that's natural. And then the nurture part is

475
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 3: what's creating these epigenetic changes. We do know pretty consistently

476
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 3: across the board that stress leads to epigenetic changes. Now

477
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 3: across the board is exactly what I mean as in

478
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,679
Speaker 3: all different facets in metabolism. Going back to what I

479
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 3: chatted with you about before with diabetes and hypertension, when

480
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 3: it comes to reproduction, having stress seems to play a

481
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 3: really important role in lack of reproductive health, leap, hygiene,

482
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 3: and learning. These are all things that we can put

483
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 3: our finger on that change epigenetic markers when it comes

484
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 3: to stress. So it's really a big component.

485
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 1: So are they thing that we should be mindful of.

486
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 1: Let's say we do know some things about like our grandparents,

487
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 1: and if your research is correct and the research people

488
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 1: are doing that, we know that we may have kind

489
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 1: of be genetically predisposed to higher levels or stress or

490
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: something like that. Are there things that we should be

491
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 1: mindful of in our everyday lives.

492
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 3: Yes, And I think the one thing I'm going to

493
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 3: suggest that we're mindful of is that if we are

494
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:35,640
Speaker 3: living in inherited trauma, and what inherited trauma looks like,

495
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,919
Speaker 3: like we've been able to demonstrate, is a change in

496
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 3: the brain. It does not mean we're broken. Biology wants

497
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 3: us to survive. And so if biology changed our brain

498
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 3: in a particular way based on a stressor in the

499
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,399
Speaker 3: past for us to survive. Let's take a second to

500
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 3: honor what biology does which makes sure that we survive. Now,

501
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 3: with that being said, we know that stressors do change

502
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,080
Speaker 3: epigenetic markers. We don't know what this exactly means to

503
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 3: be hypervigilance. If we are living in a war torn

504
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 3: whatever that means, whether it's in our mind, in our household,

505
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,880
Speaker 3: in our community, or in the world, it may lead

506
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 3: to hypervigilance, which may not be great for day to

507
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 3: day but also allows us to survive. It does not

508
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,400
Speaker 3: mean we're broken. It means we're optimized in a way

509
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 3: that unfortunately the universe is not changing as such. But

510
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 3: also it probably means that we should be delicate with

511
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 3: ourselves and take care of ourselves, because if we're going

512
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 3: through and living life with inherited trauma, that potential hypervigilance,

513
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 3: maybe because of the brain structural changes that we're seeing,

514
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 3: which means you be hypersensitive to things in the environment,

515
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,199
Speaker 3: can wear us out. And we know that living in

516
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 3: a state of hypervigilance where a part of our brain body,

517
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 3: the HPA, the hypothalamus pituitary adrenal access is in the

518
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 3: access of stress that releases stress hormone from the brain

519
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 3: into the body and the body back to the brain

520
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 3: and feedback can wear us down. It wears down our immunity,

521
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 3: it wears down our sleep health, it wears down our metabolics.

522
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 3: So we're ready to fight in every corner and survive

523
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 3: on every corner, but we also have to be I

524
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 3: think kind to ourselves and say, I live constantly ready

525
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,679
Speaker 3: to fight. I have to train and force my body

526
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 3: to bring it back to a homeostasis by slowing down.

527
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 3: And I'm speaking to you, doctor Joy, not from the pulpit,

528
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 3: but standing in the crowd with us because I know it,

529
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 3: but because of culture, because of the way that we

530
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 3: are socialized, it's so hard, especially as a woman, as

531
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 3: a mom, as a black person, to say I can

532
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 3: sit down. I feel very strongly that my job is

533
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 3: to do this research so I can help my people,

534
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 3: and I can help my people up the world and

535
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 3: I got my people of society, and that can be

536
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 3: a really big task. And I have to remind myself

537
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 3: that if I'm not working optimally, I can't help anybody.

538
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 3: And sometimes that means just sitting down. So that's my advice.

539
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:54,120
Speaker 3: Sit down.

540
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good one that's good advice important and

541
00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 1: we don't always.

542
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,199
Speaker 4: Think about it in that way, but it really is sandpoint.

543
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: More for my conversation with doctor Marlon after the break.

544
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 1: So something else that she spent a lot of time

545
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 1: talking about in studying is the relationship between mother and child,

546
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 1: And so can you talk a little bit about why

547
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: the bound between mother and.

548
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,919
Speaker 3: Child is so important? Once again, it's because biology is

549
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 3: so beautiful. I just wants to survive. I'm in love

550
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 3: with biology. So what I looked into was how the

551
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 3: brain changes to make sure offspring survive. And by the

552
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 3: brain and by offspring, I don't just mean a mother

553
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 3: takes care of her kids. And I mean that really

554
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 3: specifically and right now, I also want to be very clear,

555
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,959
Speaker 3: I'm talking about when I say male and female, I'm

556
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 3: talking about mice. I'm not talking about human population, which

557
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 3: I know goes well beyond male and female. I'm talking

558
00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 3: specifically about sex and mice. But even when it comes

559
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:02,719
Speaker 3: to do mom mice and dad mice and their brain's changing,

560
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 3: what I showed was that virgins, these are animals that

561
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 3: have never given birth, never made it, they can learn

562
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 3: to be excellent caregivers through the addition of this quote

563
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 3: unquote love drug some people call but a hormone called oxytocin,

564
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 3: which changes the hearing centers of their brain and makes

565
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 3: them respond to the sound of a baby crying. So

566
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 3: mothers will hear a baby cry, and even if it's

567
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 3: not their baby, they'll go pick it up and take

568
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 3: care of it mother mice. Whereas virgins before oxytocin, the

569
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 3: first time they hear a baby cry, they like won't

570
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 3: they won't pick that baby up. Sometimes they'll cannibalize it,

571
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 3: and that may not lead their survival. But what we

572
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 3: were able to show through our studies is that it's

573
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 3: nature and nurture because it seems that if you just

574
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 3: look at those two situations, virgin mates with the male

575
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 3: then gives birth great mom. What we saw at our

576
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 3: observations was that a virgin who lives with the mom,

577
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 3: we treat her with oxytocin. The neurons with electricity. The

578
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 3: hearing center's change with electricity, and they fire differently, and

579
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 3: it's as if they're encoded differently. They're getting a different

580
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 3: message when the baby cries, and it's no longer attack

581
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 3: or ignore, take care of it. Says if the brain

582
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,959
Speaker 3: is ready to be a mom, but it needed that

583
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 3: learning experience and oxytocin for to take place.

584
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 1: Okay, And do you do any experiments with the male

585
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: mice with oxytocin? Do we see something different? So we

586
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: did do experiments with male mice, and I feel like

587
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: this always gets me a little bit in trouble. We

588
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 1: did experiments with mail mice.

589
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 3: Do they have oxytocin receptors which is how the brain

590
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 3: works with the oxytocin? Yes? Do they pick up puffs? Yes?

591
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 3: Virgins will learn to pick up a pup on the

592
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 3: order of twelve hours, males line three to five days,

593
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 3: So in the wild that's not as great. But also

594
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 3: there are sex differences in the male and female brain

595
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 3: and mice, and it could just be that they're optimized

596
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 3: for different things. The mother will feed the puffs for

597
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 3: twenty one days, which means it may make more sense

598
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 3: for her to have to hear these pups and pick

599
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 3: them up because she's going to be forging and coming

600
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 3: back to the nest where the dad's going to be

601
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 3: out and about. So biology maybe has optimized these two

602
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 3: as well.

603
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 4: Got it? Got it? Okay?

604
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 1: So what messene or questions? Do you feel like your

605
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: own motherhood journey have brought up.

606
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 3: Oh goodness, I thought I knew everything about motherhood. I'm like, yeah,

607
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 3: I'm a whole PhD in this, I've got this, and

608
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 3: then I gave birth. But I do think that not

609
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 3: only was I blessed enough to be a mom of

610
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 3: two kids, but I also had the opportunity for Peter

611
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 3: trying to be a foster mom. And this comes from,

612
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 3: I think, via observations. I told you I was interested

613
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 3: in education, but I was also interested in how the

614
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 3: brain changes. Because I was blessed enough to grow up

615
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 3: in a household where my biological parents were foster parents,

616
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 3: and so I was able to speak with my siblings

617
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 3: about the wives that they had before they came to

618
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 3: my home and what that looked like. And so I

619
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 3: think something that's brought from my science to my household

620
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 3: and to my heart is really that biology has a

621
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 3: setup for survival, because you don't have to give birth

622
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 3: out of your body for biology to set up your

623
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 3: brain to take care of an offspring. And to see

624
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 3: that both in the lab but also in practice, just

625
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 3: further gives truth and credence to what we already know

626
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,719
Speaker 3: in our heart, but it's great to see it when

627
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 3: it comes up as data. So I think that's been

628
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 3: the biggest I think blessing of being able to be

629
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 3: a parent, know that even when I'm not the best

630
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 3: the way I would define the best, I have the

631
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 3: crown work to be good enough and that's what my

632
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 3: kids need sometimes good enough and biologies got me set

633
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 3: up for that.

634
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 4: Thank you appreciating it.

635
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: So you bring up an interesting thing, you know, when

636
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: you think about adoptive children, and you know we don't

637
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: always have like the history of our parents or our grandparents.

638
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: How can we identify Is there a way to identify

639
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: inheritance trauma without the insight from parents or grandparents.

640
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 3: That's an amazing question, and it really comes down to

641
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 3: how do you interact with the environment, and then being

642
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 3: sensitive to that because that may be questions that we

643
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 3: can't answer. You don't know your parents, or you may

644
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 3: not have a pation about your parents, and there for

645
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 3: your grandparents, and many of us who have you know,

646
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 3: who have our biological parents don't know what happened for

647
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 3: generations back. And so being aware of how you interact

648
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 3: in different environments and being sensitive to how different environments

649
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 3: make you feel, but also knowing that if epigenetic changes

650
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 3: can be put on, they can be taken off, which

651
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 3: means that even if you don't know the trauma and

652
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 3: trauma that has happened, it could be for the better,

653
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 3: not something that's replaying the nurture part that's replaying again

654
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 3: in your mind. And if you find that there's sensitivities

655
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 3: that you can't put your finger on, you don't know

656
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 3: where they came from being sensitive to being soft in

657
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 3: those situations and maybe for speaking with a more handway

658
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 3: of non biological term, but essentially massage those epigenetic markers

659
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:03,719
Speaker 3: off that part of your genome.

660
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: What do you mean when you say they can be

661
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: turned on, they can also be turned off, because I

662
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 1: think you know there is also the conversation around like

663
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: people being the one in their family to like break

664
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 1: the generation generational curse. Yeah, yeah, And so what do

665
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 1: you mean when you say that.

666
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 3: Exactly what you said, that the breaking generational curses, breaking

667
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 3: generational traumas. We hear this commonly and we feel it

668
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 3: in our hearts once again, so we want to bring

669
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 3: credence to that. When it comes to the science into

670
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 3: the biology, there are many ways that our DNA sits

671
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 3: in our body and it allows it to be read

672
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 3: or unread. These are epigenetic markers as well as other

673
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 3: things that are floating around in our cells that we're

674
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 3: still learning what they are. So like an example of

675
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 3: this is something called long and uncoding RNA, which is

676
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 3: a part of our cells, but we don't really know

677
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 3: how it's working to change the rest of everything and

678
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,760
Speaker 3: can increase your decrease of response to trauma, et cetera.

679
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 3: What does it means we turned on and off. What

680
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 3: it means to be turned on and off is that

681
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 3: we can add epigenetic markers in lab we can go

682
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 3: and we can blast the epigenetic markers on are inject

683
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:04,959
Speaker 3: drugs and they put these epigenetic markers on and off,

684
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 3: but because there's a mechanism that has put them on

685
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 3: in the environment. For example, if you put on a

686
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 3: lot of weight during the winter, which sometimes happens, it

687
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 3: changes some of the epigenetic markers in your body, and

688
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 3: then when you lose weight in the summer, it changes

689
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 3: some of those epigenetic markers in your body. They're not permanent,

690
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 3: is what we're saying.

691
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 4: Now.

692
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 3: How to target the ones that are particular to stress

693
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 3: as opposed to metabolos or something I'm talking about right now.

694
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 3: That's the question. How do we say, you know what,

695
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 3: looking a little thick in the winter is someber not

696
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 3: The issue that we're trying to focus on. We're trying

697
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 3: to focus on is the anxiety I feel walking into

698
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 3: this room, and how do I change that if that

699
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 3: is inherited epigenetically, And it's one of the questions we

700
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 3: look to answer targeting.

701
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 4: Got it?

702
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, as a psychologist, I feel like,

703
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of research that talks about

704
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: therapy and like the different kinds of things that you know,

705
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: therapist and prectation youists do use to kind of help

706
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: massage as you mentioned exactly the epigenetics. I appreciate you

707
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 1: sharing this so I think I thought that they were permanent,

708
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: but you're saying they're not.

709
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 3: That the markers are not permanent. And I have to

710
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 3: thank you from the bottom of my heart because I

711
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 3: found my therapist through you. What on the website, you know,

712
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 3: I'm like, and I'm not just all you know, massaging

713
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 3: stuff off that I do and you don't know that's there.

714
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 3: But also preventing and preparing for future stressors that are

715
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 3: one hundred percent going to come. I'm a human on

716
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,280
Speaker 3: this earth. Stressors are going to come. But finding ways

717
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 3: to adapt and response to them, even something as simple

718
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 3: as the way you respond in a stressful situation can

719
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 3: change us up tonight markers or prevent them from even

720
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 3: going on.

721
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 1: So, as I'm listening to you talking as a fellow period,

722
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,240
Speaker 1: you know, I think a lot of us are thinking about, like, Okay,

723
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 1: how do I not pass this on to my chout

724
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: or children?

725
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 3: Every day I'm talking to you, but I'm talking to

726
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 3: myself like, Danca, it's fine, You're fine. You can be

727
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 3: massaged off like you look black and Jewish. It's like,

728
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 3: oh gosh, y'all.

729
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 2: So what ads would you.

730
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:58,240
Speaker 1: Give to fellow parents or caregivers about how to maybe

731
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 1: not want to don't want to ans on any generational trauma,

732
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 1: Like what kinds of things should they be in mind

733
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: below or what kinds of practices may they want to engage?

734
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 3: Yes, for sure, if you're a parent right now, it

735
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 3: means that your kid is there, is born. So we're

736
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 3: not talking about the genetics. You're really staring at it,

737
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 3: staring at you right. But when it comes to your epigenetics,

738
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 3: I think one important thing we can teach our kids.

739
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:21,919
Speaker 3: If I teach, I really mean to demonstrate, right, because

740
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 3: not everyone's going to be out there is going to

741
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 3: be a you know, a child psychologist or have the

742
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 3: time or the bandwidth to you know, really practice these things.

743
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 3: But in modeling how we navigate certain situations, and modeling

744
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 3: what stress looks like, and modeling what taking care of

745
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 3: yourself looks like, and modeling what sleep hygiene looks like,

746
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 3: and modeling what I mean, we could use it say

747
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 3: the word self care, but self care is worlds care, right,

748
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,760
Speaker 3: so like societal world's care looks like we could be

749
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 3: priming our little ones not to take on epigenetic markers

750
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 3: of stress that aren't beneficial to them because they're able

751
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 3: to navigate these situations, and even doing a little bit

752
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 3: of the massaging because as they start to take care

753
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 3: of themselves, as they start to honor the parts that

754
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 3: are not going to heighten that anxiety one it's unnecessary,

755
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 3: those can be the stuff's taking and really like you

756
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 3: can sit yourself in a spiral of Wow, this happened

757
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 3: to me, and then I decided to give birth. Am

758
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 3: I wrong for doing that? Should I not have passed

759
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 3: these things on? People have been giving birth since the

760
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 3: beginning of time. We're not going to stop giving birth,

761
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 3: So it really I just hope that what our work

762
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:33,280
Speaker 3: shows is that you shouldn't be afraid of taking these steps.

763
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 3: You shouldn't be afraid of giving birth. They shouldn't be

764
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 3: afraid of of what you can pass down as much

765
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 3: as how you can prevent anything going further not's something

766
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 3: we can do in the here and now. And that's

767
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 3: the nurture part. We can't control the nature, but we

768
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 3: can't control the nurture. And no, there's no pill you

769
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 3: can take. It's not that it happen with more care,

770
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 3: but it can happen with things like you spik about doctor,

771
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,240
Speaker 3: like therapy, like working through your emotions, like modeling healthy

772
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:02,319
Speaker 3: emotional responses, keeping stress at a level that is low

773
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 3: when it needs to be, and not ignoring stress. The

774
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 3: stress is also adaptive and sometimes needs to be high.

775
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 3: It just doesn't need to be high all the time.

776
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 1: So doctor walland where can people stay connected with you

777
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: and all the incredible work that you're doing. What is

778
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 1: your website as well as any social media handles you'd

779
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 1: like to share.

780
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 3: Oh, yes, thank you, thanks for asking. I'm looking forward

781
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 3: to sharing all the exciting work coming out of the lab.

782
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 3: So my lab website is www dot Bianca Jonesmarlin dot

783
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 3: com and on Twitter I'm at at Bjmarlin as well

784
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 3: as Instagram at Bianca Jones Marlin Perfect.

785
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 1: We will we should include all of those in the

786
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 1: show notes. Thank you so much for sharing with us today,

787
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 1: Doctor Wilin.

788
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me, Doctor Joy.

789
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Doctor Morland was able to share her

790
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 1: exercise with us today.

791
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 4: So learn more about her and her work.

792
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: Visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com

793
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: slash session three oh three and don't forget to text

794
00:39:58,680 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: two of your girls until.

795
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 2: Dim to check out the episode as well.

796
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,919
Speaker 1: If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check

797
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: out our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com

798
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 1: slash directory.

799
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 2: And if you want to continue.

800
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 1: Digging into this topic or just be in community with

801
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 1: other sisters, come on over and join us in the

802
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed

803
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: just for black women. You can join us at community

804
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:26,240
Speaker 1: dot Therapy for blackgirls dot Com. This episode was produced

805
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,479
Speaker 1: by Frieda. Lucas and Elis Ellis, and editing was done

806
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 1: by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me

807
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 1: again this week. I look forward to.

808
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 2: Continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.

809
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 3: What's