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Speaker 1: Hello, They're Happy Monday. It is September fifteenth, with another

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Speaker 1: episode of the Chuck Podcast. I'll be honest, the last

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Speaker 1: five days have been quite difficult when just thinking about

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Speaker 1: American politics, thinking about the country, thinking about whether we're

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Speaker 1: going to bring ourselves together. Each day when I was

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Speaker 1: looking for a glimmer of hope, I rarely found one.

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Speaker 1: I mean there's even in the one person who seems

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Speaker 1: to be meeting the moment, the governor of Utah, Spencer Cox.

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Speaker 1: Even his comments today were sort of demoralizing. Understandably so,

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Speaker 1: because I don't disagree with anything he has said at

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Speaker 1: this point, and in fact believe he is the leader

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Speaker 1: at the moment. But when trying to figure out in

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Speaker 1: some ways, it's easy to understand how we got here,

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Speaker 1: there's so many forces against unity in this country. Right,

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Speaker 1: there's so many forces for division. Right, there's there's you know,

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Speaker 1: it's almost like the system is rigged towards division. Right.

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Speaker 1: Our system is not rigged for unity. It is right now,

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Speaker 1: rigged towards division in how it works. And I think

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Speaker 1: that's why it feels as if boy, there's I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's clear that we don't have the president we need

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Speaker 1: in the moment to meet this moment. I've been trying to.

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Speaker 1: I've been hopeful, right, I think you give as much

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Speaker 1: grace as you can. Maybe more people will get to him,

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Speaker 1: maybe he will see that this is something that he

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Speaker 1: cannot just use to exploit politically. But let's be honest.

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Speaker 1: That hope is fading. And you can call me naive,

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Speaker 1: but I would have done it and said it the

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Speaker 1: same way before, because only we only have one president

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Speaker 1: at a time, and you know, hope springs eternal that

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Speaker 1: that he'll see the light, but he is. He is

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Speaker 1: clearly blind on this one. Let me give you a

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Speaker 1: quick little rundown of how I'm going to attack the

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Speaker 1: episode today. We're going to talk a little bit more

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Speaker 1: about where I think this is going short term versus

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Speaker 1: long term, how and what to watch for in the

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Speaker 1: two political parties here and how they handle this moment.

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Speaker 1: I've got my It's Monday. We do every week. I

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Speaker 1: want to give you sort of a history lesson based

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Speaker 1: on something that happened in history. This week it is

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Speaker 1: between September fifteenth and September twenty first, So I'll give

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Speaker 1: you just a clue it'll be I will tell you

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Speaker 1: what our moment in history, and then the dive we're

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Speaker 1: going to do. I will do that after our interview today.

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Speaker 1: My interview is with a long time a friend of

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Speaker 1: mine named Frank Lavin. He's a former ambassador to Singapore.

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Speaker 1: He has got his start in politics in the political

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Speaker 1: shop for the Reagan Winehouse, worked in both Bush administrations,

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Speaker 1: has mostly in the last ten years working in the

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Speaker 1: Asian Pacific region, so certainly has a lot of expertise

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Speaker 1: on that. But he just wrote a bit of a

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Speaker 1: memoir slash history of his time in the Reagan whine House.

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Speaker 1: Name is Frank Lavin, and what I love about the

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Speaker 1: book is that he did wait thirty five years. In

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Speaker 1: some ways, the further away you are sometimes you romanticize

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Speaker 1: your own impact on things. But I also think the

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Speaker 1: further away you are, you also have the input of others,

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Speaker 1: and you have more of the historical record. And in

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Speaker 1: many ways this memoir only helps give nuance in context

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Speaker 1: to other pieces of the Reagan legacy. And whether or

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Speaker 1: not it applies where it applies to I do think

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Speaker 1: you'll enjoy this conversation no matter which side of the

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Speaker 1: aisle you sit. But as I said, are this day

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Speaker 1: this week in history moment, I'll just give you a

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Speaker 1: small clue. We're going to go back to September nineteenth,

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Speaker 1: seventeen ninety six. The real history junkies in my feed

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Speaker 1: here probably have an idea of what event I will

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Speaker 1: be doing a deep dive on, but I want to

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Speaker 1: keep a little bit of suspense until we'll do it

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Speaker 1: after the interview. For those of you that listen to

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Speaker 1: the entire the entire episode in one download, of course,

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Speaker 1: we do split it up into a couple of downloads

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Speaker 1: if you want to have the interview on its own

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Speaker 1: and all of my work separately on its own. I'll

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Speaker 1: also do a little bit of what I learned this

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Speaker 1: week and they in my obsession of college football in short,

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out how is it that both

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Speaker 1: my football team seem to to be playing so well,

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Speaker 1: so methodically well that it is, and just out physically,

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Speaker 1: just physically better than every team that they play right now?

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Speaker 1: It is. It is both exciting me and scaring me.

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Speaker 1: I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop on one

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Speaker 1: of my teams, if not both. But let me just

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Speaker 1: say I am enjoying this moment. It's great. To be

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Speaker 1: a Miami Hurricane and it's great to be a Green

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Speaker 1: Bay Packer fan in this current in this current time.

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Speaker 1: But as much as I would love to continue compartmentalizing

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Speaker 1: as I did yesterday and Saturday with football to try

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Speaker 1: to not think about our current state of politics, I

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Speaker 1: can't help but keep coming back to that and when

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Speaker 1: thinking about where to begin. You know, I had my

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Speaker 1: new Sphere show last night, and for that episode and

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Speaker 1: I talked to an expert on political violence and an

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Speaker 1: expert on sort of how do you know is there

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Speaker 1: such things? Is prevention in the political violence base? You know,

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Speaker 1: can interventions work? And the professor from American University is

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Speaker 1: someone that believes it. Believes that it can, and that

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Speaker 1: there's data to back it up, that there is ways

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Speaker 1: to mitigate the risk of violence down the road. But

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Speaker 1: it does take It takes will right, and that's ultimately

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Speaker 1: I think the question I have is do we have

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Speaker 1: the will? Do we have the guts to do what

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Speaker 1: it takes to bring ourselves together when we're attacked by outsiders?

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Speaker 1: Like we were a nine to eleven, but we unified

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Speaker 1: pretty quickly and we stayed fairly united for good twelve

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Speaker 1: to eighteen months. And even when we started dividing, we

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Speaker 1: didn't divide about the attack. We divided about the response, right,

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Speaker 1: we thought about the wars. But we did it politically, right,

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Speaker 1: We did it the way you're supposed to do it.

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Speaker 1: But every time we had a chance to remember nine

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Speaker 1: to eleven, even in the you know, harshest presidential election years,

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Speaker 1: the two candidates at least in sixteen attended the same event, right,

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Speaker 1: So we have we have attempted to sort of grasp

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Speaker 1: at that at that unifying moment. And the fact is,

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Speaker 1: anytime we've been attacked from the outside, it has unified

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Speaker 1: us as a country. Our most you know, unifying period

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Speaker 1: of American history was during the Cold War because we

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Speaker 1: had an existential threat. And I think you've heard some

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Speaker 1: of you have heard my thesis quite a bit that

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Speaker 1: I am somewhat concerned that actually the only thing that

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Speaker 1: unites us are existential threats from the outside. We have

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Speaker 1: threats from the inside, and they only divide us. And

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Speaker 1: that's what it feels like today that all these threats

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Speaker 1: that we're dealing with right now are dividing us. Look,

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Speaker 1: there is some data here to back this up. In

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Speaker 1: just the first six months of this year. Okay, according

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Speaker 1: to the there's some folks at the University of Maryland

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Speaker 1: who tracked this very well, very methodically, in a healthy

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Speaker 1: academic setting. America has endured nearly one hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: politically motivated attacks in the first six months of this year.

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Speaker 1: It's almost double. So it doesn't count that Charlie Cook

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Speaker 1: Charlie Kirk murder. It's almost double the number in the

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Speaker 1: same period last year. We've had twenty one people killed. Okay,

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Speaker 1: since January. That included what happened in New Year's Eve

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Speaker 1: in New Orleans when you had that radical radical extremists

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Speaker 1: attack Bourbon Street. We had a pro Palestinian activists killed

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Speaker 1: two Israeli embassy employees in Washington. We had eleven armed

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Speaker 1: militant storm Texas immigration ice facility. Earlier this year, we

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Speaker 1: had a gunman obsessed with COVID conspiracies spring gunfire at

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Speaker 1: CDC's headquarters in Atlanta, killed a police officer. Minnesota, Christian

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Speaker 1: nationalists went door to door trying to murder Democratic lawmakers

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Speaker 1: and successfully did one and her husband, wounding another. And

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Speaker 1: of course now we've had the killing of Charlie Kirk

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Speaker 1: in broad daylight on a college campus and a place

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Speaker 1: that as a parent of two college kids, that you

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Speaker 1: know we want college to be in a place I

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Speaker 1: know what I to not put words in other people's mouths.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you what I want college to

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Speaker 1: be and what college has been for me. It's about

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Speaker 1: exposing yourself to different people, different ideas, different ideologies, different experiences,

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Speaker 1: different everything. And it's about learning, right. But the only

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Speaker 1: way to learn is you need to be exposed to

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Speaker 1: good ideas and bad ideas. But the exposed is important.

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Speaker 1: Trying to hide from ideas, even ones that you don't

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Speaker 1: agree with, doesn't do anything to help a situation. Hiding

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Speaker 1: ideas only can make things worse. But the fact is

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Speaker 1: we are living in a tinder box right now. So

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Speaker 1: we're at a fork in the rut. And I said

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Speaker 1: that the other day. And you know the hope is

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Speaker 1: that is, you know, when are we going to have

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Speaker 1: enough is enough moment? We've been We've had ten years

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Speaker 1: of this intense political division where it is where awful

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Speaker 1: rhetoric has turned into physical violence. I want to quote

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Speaker 1: Spencer Cox, who said on an appearance at NBC on Sunday,

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Speaker 1: he said, and I think he's right. Social media has

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Speaker 1: played a direct role in every single assassination and assass

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Speaker 1: a nation attempt that we have seen over the last

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Speaker 1: five or six years. I don't think I disagree with that,

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Speaker 1: and that's been you know, another thing that's been a

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Speaker 1: bit frustrating, and what we've watched so far in the

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Speaker 1: reaction is that again, outside of the governor of Utah,

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Speaker 1: outside of Governor Cox, nobody's tried to meet this moment.

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Speaker 1: Nobody's tried to look at this as an American first.

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Speaker 1: There are way too many people responding as a partisan first,

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Speaker 1: doing some yah butts. What do I mean by a yabbot? Well,

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Speaker 1: there was an example of one and it was by

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Speaker 1: a reporter and it was Charlie Gasparino, and I want

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Speaker 1: to quote him, and he said, because he's proud of

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Speaker 1: his point, he retweeted his point. He said, what he

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Speaker 1: said on Fox is what he believes that there are

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Speaker 1: violent loons on the right and the left, but a

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Speaker 1: certain type of violent RhD is totally accepted as morally

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Speaker 1: righteous on the left and the cultural institution that dominates.

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Speaker 1: So this is where I want to and that would

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Speaker 1: include the university as well as most of the mainstream Meredia.

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Speaker 1: And that's where I want to stop right there. I

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Speaker 1: believe he believes this. I don't believe he's making up

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Speaker 1: this mindset. I can tell you I don't believe what

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Speaker 1: he says is true. That's not from my observation and

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Speaker 1: this idea, and I've seen it, you know where no, no, no, no, Yes,

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Speaker 1: we have some loans on our side, but they're they

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Speaker 1: don't They're not representative of us, but your loon the

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Speaker 1: loons on the other side are representative of everybody out there.

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Speaker 1: And this is the problem. You know, I would say,

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Speaker 1: give yourself a test on this, because I've been doing

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Speaker 1: it with myself all weekend. Like you know, I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty convinced. I know how we got here, and I

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Speaker 1: know that my definitive belief is not going to be

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Speaker 1: shared by everybody. But I'm sure that some a piece

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Speaker 1: of what I believe would be shared by a lot

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Speaker 1: of people. And that's sort of how you become I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is what politics is about. Politics isn't about I'm

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Speaker 1: right and you're wrong. Politics is about here are my ideas,

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Speaker 1: here's your ideas. Are they compatible? And if they're at

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Speaker 1: all compatible? Is there a middle ground? And elections decide, hey,

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Speaker 1: does the middle ground? Fifty to fifty is the middle ground,

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Speaker 1: sixty forty is the middle ground, seventy thirty right right

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Speaker 1: Elections are a tug of war in some ways about

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Speaker 1: where the middle is. But it's still supposed to be

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Speaker 1: somewhere in the middle on this stuff. And so I

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Speaker 1: think that is the the problem that we have is

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Speaker 1: that we're stuck. When you believe you're you're when you

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Speaker 1: when when you when your beliefs are righteous in your head,

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Speaker 1: then no counter factual is going to convince you of

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Speaker 1: you can't compromise on sort of righteous beliefs, right, And

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Speaker 1: so it becomes where there's just almost no You can't

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Speaker 1: even put yourself in the shoes of somebody who disagrees

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Speaker 1: with you. I imagine today that there are some on

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Speaker 1: the left who now understand a little bit better what

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Speaker 1: folks on the right have called said about cancel culture.

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Speaker 1: That expressing one's opinion, as vile as it may be

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Speaker 1: to to you, he is simply that person's opinion. And

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Speaker 1: is it enough if it's nothing that it's illegal and

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Speaker 1: it hasn't incited anybody to do anything violent or illegal,

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Speaker 1: should it cost them their livelihoods? And so you know,

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Speaker 1: we so badly want a virtue signal during any given moment,

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Speaker 1: right whatever the moment is. Whether it was virtue signaling

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Speaker 1: right after George Floyd and what happened to him, you

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Speaker 1: saw a lot of it virtue signaling right after we've

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Speaker 1: seen with Charlie Kirk, rather than sort of figuring out

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Speaker 1: how do I take my idea in solving this problem?

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Speaker 1: And I broadened the appeal of that argument that I

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Speaker 1: can persuade some who mostly disagrees with my point of

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Speaker 1: view to at least not just acknowledge that my point

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Speaker 1: of view's fair rational, but maybe there's something to it,

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Speaker 1: rather than being so convinced that you're right and your

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Speaker 1: political opponent is wrong that there's nothing to be learned

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Speaker 1: from them on this one iota. And I know that

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Speaker 1: anybody here can practice what about isn't that the minute somebody?

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, we're going through it now, right

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Speaker 1: And I've had to catch myself. I mean, I see

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Speaker 1: so many one sided conversations about violence right right now

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Speaker 1: on the right not acknowledging what happened at the CDC

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Speaker 1: or what happened to those Minnesota lawmakers or somehow marginalizing

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Speaker 1: those events that they have nothing to do with this,

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Speaker 1: when frankly, they all have to do with this. It's

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Speaker 1: all we have. We have we have created this information ecosystem. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And I'm going to quote Mike Johnson on this, who

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Speaker 1: I thought said something that was worth quoting here when

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Speaker 1: he said this, people have to stop framing simple policy

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Speaker 1: disagreements in terms of existential threats to our democracy. You

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Speaker 1: can't call the other side fascists or enemies of the

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Speaker 1: state and not understand that there are some deranged people

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Speaker 1: in our society who will take that as cues to act.

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Speaker 1: I know some of you are going to be like

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Speaker 1: Mike Johnson practices both ciderisms by using fascists and enemies

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Speaker 1: of the state, right, the language that each side is

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Speaker 1: using these days to try to dehumanize and de americanize

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Speaker 1: somebody who has an opposing political view. But good for him,

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Speaker 1: because he's exactly right. We have we have gotten it.

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Speaker 1: And the thing is is that when we're in person,

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Speaker 1: we don't speak or behave this way. It's why so

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Speaker 1: many of the elected officials I talk to will say, oh, no,

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Speaker 1: it's not that bad up here. When you know there

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Speaker 1: are a couple of people who are bad actors who

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Speaker 1: go out there to just be grifters. Right, they're just

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Speaker 1: playing to the algorithms, playing to the to the to

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Speaker 1: the influence peddlers. Who are you know, these these folks

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Speaker 1: that that that obsess with how much traffic that they get,

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Speaker 1: and all of this play to the algorithms. For the

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Speaker 1: most part, when these elected d's and elected ours get together,

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Speaker 1: they they don't speak in vile language to each other,

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Speaker 1: with the very rare exception of a couple, for the

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Speaker 1: most part, they interact with each other the way you

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Speaker 1: interact with average people at the grocery store, at the

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Speaker 1: post office. Right, you don't behave save like an asshole.

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Speaker 1: Well ninety five percent of us don't want to behave

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Speaker 1: like an asshole in public. So I don't know why

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Speaker 1: we do this online. And then of course we have

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Speaker 1: the entire I mean, what's of all the frustrating aspects

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Speaker 1: of the political response to the last five days, the

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Speaker 1: lack of focus and accountability on the on the on

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Speaker 1: the information warpers of our time, the big tech companies

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Speaker 1: and their algorithms who systematically surface information that gets you

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Speaker 1: angry so that you stay on a platform and you keep,

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Speaker 1: you know, giving them the ability to sell ads based

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Speaker 1: on your rage. They're the problem. They're destroying the information ecosystem.

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Speaker 1: They're the issue. I mean, what Elon Musk has done

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Speaker 1: to ask, Mark Zuckerberg's done to Facebook, with the Chinese

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Speaker 1: Communist Party has done with TikTok or who the hell

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Speaker 1: else runs it. It's amazing on certain days what it

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Speaker 1: emphasizes and what it doesn't. So we know, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if we do know. Actually I sit there. We

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Speaker 1: know that we're better in person than we are online,

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Speaker 1: but you know it's hard to I think we all know.

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Speaker 1: When we're not online, we're a little bit better, and

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Speaker 1: when we're too much online, we're a little bit worse.

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Speaker 1: There's a reason results matter more than promises, just like

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Speaker 1: there's a reason Morgan and Morgan is America's largest injury

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Speaker 1: law firm. For the last thirty five they've recovered twenty

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Speaker 1: five billion dollars for more than half a million clients.

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Speaker 1: It includes cases where insurance companies offered next to nothing,

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Speaker 1: just hoping to get away with paying as little as possible.

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Speaker 1: Morgan and Morgan fought back ended up winning millions. In fact,

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Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania, one client was awarded twenty six million dollars,

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Speaker 1: which was a staggering forty times the amount that the

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Speaker 1: insurance company originally offered. That original offer six hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars twenty six million, six hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars. So with more than one thousand lawyers across

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Speaker 1: the country, they know how to deliver for everyday people.

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Speaker 1: If you're injured, you need a lawyer. You need somebody

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Speaker 1: to get your back. Check out for the People dot com,

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Speaker 1: Slash podcast or Dow Pound Law Pound five to nine

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Speaker 1: law on your cell phone. And remember all law firms

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Speaker 1: are not the same, So check out Morgan and Morgan.

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Speaker 1: Their fee is free unless they win. I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: things will get super better in the short term. I

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Speaker 1: think you have you have too many folks invested. We've

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Speaker 1: already seen some. I mean, it looks to me like

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Speaker 1: President Trump and Stephen Miller in particular, view this as

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Speaker 1: a moment to exploit for political gain. That is dangerous

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Speaker 1: and that risks. You know, each side justifies their radicalization

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Speaker 1: based on the other side. I mean Donald Trump did

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Speaker 1: it the other day when he was asked directly on

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Speaker 1: Fox and Friends, Hey, we got there's some fringe people,

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Speaker 1: extremists on the right, and he said yeah, but he yeah,

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Speaker 1: butted it right, he said, but our extremists care about

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Speaker 1: lawn or they're upset because of crime issues. He just

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Speaker 1: sort of manufactured some rationale. But again, he was looking

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Speaker 1: for a reason not to accept any piece of this

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Speaker 1: that somehow he has any responsibility here whatsoever, or has

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Speaker 1: been a contributor to the violent climate that we all

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Speaker 1: live right now in America. And when you don't have

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Speaker 1: a leader who even if he doesn't believe he's as

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Speaker 1: big of a contributor as others believe he is. But

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Speaker 1: if he doesn't have the ability to sort of I

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Speaker 1: don't know if he claims to be a Christian, so

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Speaker 1: at least admitgift send because he has on this issue,

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Speaker 1: he's not tried to bring people together, and he doesn't

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Speaker 1: and he's never pretended he was planning on doing it.

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Speaker 1: You know, he says unity would be nice, but right,

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Speaker 1: he doesn't know any other way. The politics of division

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Speaker 1: have been extraordinarily successful. And this is what is very

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Speaker 1: frustrating is that those that have power right now may

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Speaker 1: believe they've got political power because of the politics of division,

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Speaker 1: that the politics of division has been good politics for them,

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Speaker 1: even if it's been unhealthy for the country. And that's

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Speaker 1: where we have to get. We have to change the

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Speaker 1: incentive structures. It's been fun to look up all sorts

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Speaker 1: of new quotes that people have been throwing out there,

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Speaker 1: and there's a Milton Friedman quote that I wanted to

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Speaker 1: share that sort of fits. I think that fits this

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Speaker 1: moment right now, and that is this issue of incentives. Right,

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Speaker 1: do you know our elected officials. Does it matter whether

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Speaker 1: they're good or bad? Or does it matter more if

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Speaker 1: the incentives are good or bad. Here's how Milton Friedman argued.

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Speaker 1: He says, what is important is not the particular person

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Speaker 1: who is elected president or the party he belongs to.

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Speaker 1: I have often said, we shall not correct the state

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Speaker 1: of affairs by electing the right people. We've tried that

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Speaker 1: the right people before they're elected, become the wrong people

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Speaker 1: after they're elected. We've all seen that. Right, The important

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Speaker 1: thing is to make it politically profitable for the wrong

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Speaker 1: people to do the right thing. If it is not

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Speaker 1: politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right

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Speaker 1: thing the right people will not do the right thing ever,

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Speaker 1: or either excuse me. Look, I think our own experiences

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Speaker 1: prove this. Our incentive structure. If there was a reward

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Speaker 1: structure in our politics that punished dividers and rewarded Uniteds,

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Speaker 1: we would have two parties fighting to say, no, we

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Speaker 1: represent are the better unifying vision for America. We do

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Speaker 1: not have two parties competing for a unifying vision of America.

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Speaker 1: We have two parties competing that says their vision is wrong,

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Speaker 1: their vision is wrong, any part of it is un American. Right,

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Speaker 1: we sort of we we do two things to each other.

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Speaker 1: We dehumanize and we de americanize, and they're kind of

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Speaker 1: the same thing. But in our political debate, if you

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Speaker 1: can make somebody seem on American, it gives you, It

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Speaker 1: makes you look. I have used the phrase, hey, that's

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Speaker 1: you know, and I will say that's on American, And

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Speaker 1: I mean it from a defense of the constitution of

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Speaker 1: what I believe the American way is. But I acknowledge

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Speaker 1: that maybe the person I'm criticizing believes what they're doing

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Speaker 1: is in the what they think is in the best

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Speaker 1: interests of America. But the fact is, we do have

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Speaker 1: a we do have this issue of of a messed

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Speaker 1: up incentive system, and in fact, we don't have you know,

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Speaker 1: we have sort of a couple of problems. One is

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Speaker 1: we have two parties who are not comfortable policing their

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Speaker 1: own sides. And the thing is is that we are.

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Speaker 1: We never want the other side policing our side. Who

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Speaker 1: the hell do you think you are? You don't get

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Speaker 1: you know, it's like you don't get to criticize a

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Speaker 1: family member if you're not a member of my family.

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Speaker 1: I get to criticize a family a member that is

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Speaker 1: a member of my family, right you know, we know that.

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Speaker 1: You know, hey, that's you don't do that. We're a

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Speaker 1: united front as a family. If we've got disagreements, we're

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Speaker 1: going to express them ourselves. But that also means policing

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Speaker 1: your side, and we don't police right now. There is

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Speaker 1: a fear of policing your own side because it quote

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Speaker 1: gives the other side of victory. Don't do that, then

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Speaker 1: you're acknowledging that the criticism was correct. So you've got

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Speaker 1: a lot of muted down Democrats and muted Republicans about

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Speaker 1: the excesses of their political basis because there's fear right.

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Speaker 1: The information ecosystem rewards the extremes. The extremes are controlling

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Speaker 1: the political narratives of both parties more so than ever,

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Speaker 1: because if you at all try to strike a moderate tone,

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Speaker 1: you know, you're enabling the other side, you're enabling corporate interests,

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Speaker 1: or you're enabling the other side in some form or another.

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Speaker 1: And it has led a lot of what I think

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Speaker 1: it goes to the Milton Friedman quote, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of good people who are not doing the right thing

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Speaker 1: in this moment because there is no incentive to do

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Speaker 1: the right thing And if the right thing is to

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Speaker 1: speak out, the right thing is to vote against a

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Speaker 1: certain cabinet official here or there. The right thing is

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Speaker 1: to say, you know, not endorse somebody, not vote for somebody,

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Speaker 1: make it clear why. But there's this fear right. The

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Speaker 1: incentive is not there, and so we have to change.

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Speaker 1: We have to change these these incentive structures. And it

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Speaker 1: probably doesn't happen without new leadership. So what I would

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Speaker 1: say here, and before I get to I'm gonna I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna do something here that's really a hopefully we'll chap

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Speaker 1: chap the ass of hard left and hard right equally,

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Speaker 1: and that is going to be a defense of both siderisms.

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Speaker 1: I'll get to that in a minute on this front.

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Speaker 1: But look, I do think that you're gonna I do

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Speaker 1: think you're gonna see both parties divide loosely between the

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Speaker 1: peacemakers and the agitators on the right. I think the

430
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 1: agitators are in charge, right, that's President Trump and Stephen Miller.

431
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: I think many there are many in his orbit that

432
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 1: want revenge retribution in some form, and do view this

433
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: as some sort of ideological movement to be destroyed or eliminated,

434
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: which is not American right, and which is only going

435
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: to serve to radicalize radically. You know, each side keeps

436
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: using something the other side does to radical to defend

437
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: their radicalism. I promise you behaving that way is not

438
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: going to bring peace. If anything, it is going to

439
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: bring more division and is going to only divide and

440
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: and and I think frankly, there are political actors who

441
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: are going to see this as a feature, not a bug.

442
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: It's going to divide the left and divide the middle

443
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: in ways that should just allow the right to keep power,

444
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: because I think the Democrats are also going to be

445
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: split between what I would call essentially your peacemakers and yours,

446
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: and it is I don't see, you know, the correct

447
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: end of this story is Spencer Cox becomes president in

448
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: the moment that we need in this moment. But I

449
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: don't know if where we are in three years. I

450
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: certainly don't think the party that he belongs to wouldever

451
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: nominate him, and I'm not sure the part of the

452
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 1: Democratic Party whatever nominate him. He's quite he's pretty conservative ideologically,

453
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: but he's moderate in temperament, right, and that's something that

454
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 1: we've been missing, is moderate temperament in our political leadership.

455
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: I think Joe Biden was elected because many people thought

456
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: he was going to be moderate and temperament and he was.

457
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: We don't know what he was because he never really

458
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: was an active president, right, That was the problem. He

459
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: wasn't really out there and he governed. He didn't governed.

460
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: He didn't govern as if the country was a divided

461
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: nation that needed to heal, which is what he said

462
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: he was going to govern. He instead governed pretty pretty progressively.

463
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: He governed basically, he governed for his base, just like

464
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: Donald Trump is doing governing for his base, making the

465
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: middle uncomfortable, making the moderates in his party uncomfortable. But

466
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: there's you know, that's our politics is controlled right now

467
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,719
Speaker 1: by the two political bases, and they have the lion's

468
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: share of the media mouthpieces, and they will use use

469
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 1: the algorithms to punish anybody that's daring to preach some

470
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: form of moderation of any form, whether temperamental moderation or

471
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: policy moderation. So I do expect that, and it's likely

472
00:32:55,320 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: that you'll see I mean, you know, I'm I'm not

473
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: sure this is the correct, the perfect This is not

474
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: the perfect analogy, but I do think, you know, after

475
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: the death of George Floyd, there was a bit of

476
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: a sort of collective breath we all took together, and

477
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: then it quickly quickly polarized, right, things quickly divided. This

478
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: the division we didn't even really have a moment of

479
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: coming together on this. After Kirk. We've sort of divided

480
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: pretty fast. I don't think it should matter what more

481
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 1: we learn about the gunman, right, I think we know enough.

482
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: We know enough that it's pretty clear to me that

483
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 1: anybody that chooses to shoot somebody has been radicalized. And

484
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: it's pretty clear where all the radicalization comes from it

485
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: comes from our online discord, does not come from our

486
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 1: face to face discourse, but it comes from us. It

487
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: comes from our political discourse. So our political discourse radicalize

488
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 1: this person two. And that's what happened. I know others

489
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: are going to be looking, you know, to scapegoat the

490
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 1: trans community here. That's only going to make things worse

491
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: to try to go down that road. But I think

492
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 1: we all know that's where that's where many might be

493
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:42,399
Speaker 1: headed on the right, and that's likely to be met

494
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 1: with its own set of resistance and its own uh

495
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 1: in a in a way that that is, you know,

496
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 1: likely that we will spiral downward further. Rather than trying

497
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 1: to figure out how we how we can stitch this

498
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 1: back together, I think the place to start is obvious.

499
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 1: It's big tech, it's the algorithms. It's how we share information.

500
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: It's not just how politicians talk, it's how the language

501
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 1: is shared. It's how it's what's surfaced, it's what's it's

502
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 1: it's the whole thing, and it's pretty it's pretty hard

503
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,839
Speaker 1: to fix. I've been thinking about this all weekend, and

504
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: as much as I feel pretty convinced that I know

505
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: this is the core problem that this really is, it's

506
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 1: this good luck fixing it, especially when there are people

507
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 1: who have gotten political power based on it. And that's

508
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: why I think this is a you know, until the voters. Ultimately,

509
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 1: it's us that have to decide we want a different path.

510
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: We have to decide that we want that we're going

511
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: to take the politics of unity over that We're we're

512
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,879
Speaker 1: gonna we're going to take a take a breath from

513
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 1: our own ideology for a two year or four year

514
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: period simply to bring peace and to try to to

515
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: try to you know, I've said we America needs a

516
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: pastor for patriotism twenty twenty four. I thought that person

517
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 1: might be Bill mcgraven. Twenty twenty five. It looks like

518
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: the pastor for patriotism might be Spencer Cox. But he

519
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: can only succeed if we want to listen. One of

520
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 1: the ways to solve our information ecosystem issue, he said,

521
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:44,399
Speaker 1: we've got to We've actually got a We do need

522
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 1: to have a media that finds a way too, makes

523
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 1: room for multiple ideologies and multiple sides of a conversation.

524
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: You know, we've we've gotten this short at hand that

525
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 1: the left and the right likes to use both siderisms. Right,

526
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: it's a little bit more of a criticism from the

527
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 1: left than it is from the right. But what it

528
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,919
Speaker 1: really is it's when you know, nobody from the middle

529
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 1: ever uses both siderisms. It's usually an ideologue and a

530
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 1: and a hard partisan on the left or right that

531
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 1: does because they want to disavow an argument. No, that's right,

532
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 1: that's wrong. And they've accused people in mainstream journalism or

533
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,959
Speaker 1: in what some of us call it independent journalism, however

534
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: you want to describe it, that somehow it you know,

535
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: you're equating it, and it's like, now, what you're trying

536
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: to do is bring everybody into the same room so

537
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: that everybody faces similar accountability tests. And I happen to

538
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 1: be somebody who believes that if you present here's what

539
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 1: one side is saying, here's what the other side is saying,

540
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: I'm not going to treat you like an idiot. I'm

541
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 1: going to do my best test both theories of the

542
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: case and let you come to your conclusion of which

543
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 1: path might be better. And so if you don't take

544
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 1: a competing perspective seriously in your news coverage, if you

545
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 1: claim that you were doing journalism, you're not going to

546
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 1: be seen as an independent referee number one, and you're

547
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: going to be missing out on interesting arguments and better

548
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 1: ways perhaps to defend your beliefs. Journalism's credibility, doesn't, you know,

549
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 1: come from pleasing one side. It comes from proving fairness,

550
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 1: proving that you will give every actor every chance to

551
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: be heard, even when their arguments are weak, because in

552
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,240
Speaker 1: some ways that's the best way to expose a weak argument.

553
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: How often you, oh, they have nothing to say, But

554
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 1: if you don't give them a chance, then people retreat

555
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,800
Speaker 1: to their corners and retreat to their corners, and everybody

556
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: retreats to their corners, and when they think they're not

557
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,320
Speaker 1: getting a fair shot in either way, then everybody just says,

558
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: forget it, and I'm just going to preach to my choir,

559
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: and I don't even want to tune in to listen

560
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 1: to your other choir. But here's why presenting, if you

561
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: can be a place that can get people from all

562
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: sides to participate, it actually forces more accountability, and it

563
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 1: forces more collective accountability. If you have politicians, corporations, activists,

564
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: and institutions all having to go to the same places

565
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,399
Speaker 1: to talk and to make their case, then we'll have

566
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 1: shared reality, we'll have shared debate. This lack of a

567
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 1: shared reality, this lack of shared debate, and you know what,

568
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:08,399
Speaker 1: a both sides framing actually ensures that no one escapes scrutiny,

569
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: even those aligned with what you may personally believe. True

570
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 1: accountability means discomfort, and that means you should be a

571
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 1: little uncomfortable having to defend yourself. But if your ideas

572
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 1: are sound, then you'll get more comfortable doing And in

573
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 1: a pluralistic democracy, which is what we claim to be,

574
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 1: multiple perspectives have to be able to coexist. And if

575
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: we try to create a situation where we're going to

576
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 1: get rid of an ideology because we don't like it.

577
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: You this radical ideology over here, radical ideology over there.

578
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: Do you think you can just get rid of it,

579
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 1: You'll end up perhaps giving more attention to it and

580
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 1: having it untested at the same time. I mean, there's

581
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: no better way to showcase America than when you have

582
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:19,760
Speaker 1: people who disagree with each other appearing together. That's something

583
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,399
Speaker 1: we don't see as often as we used to. It

584
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:26,760
Speaker 1: was a staple of political talk shows of the eighties

585
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:31,320
Speaker 1: and nineties and for about eighteen months after nine eleven,

586
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 1: that has completely and utterly disappeared. And do realize that

587
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 1: if you hate our information ecosystem, it's because we don't

588
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 1: have any both sides vehicles anymore. In the mainstream. We

589
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 1: have outrage media, and outrage media thrives on one sided

590
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 1: coverage because it deepens audience loyalty, pure and simple. Right,

591
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 1: Egg and Kelly pod Save America. They have a loyal audience.

592
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:07,399
Speaker 1: They cannot ever veer from that too often. Every once

593
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 1: in a while they can tell their audience what an

594
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,839
Speaker 1: uncomfortable truth, But if they do it too often, they've

595
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: lose their audience. If you're an activist and you're and

596
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 1: you're and you're organizing for a political party, maybe you

597
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:30,359
Speaker 1: can rationalize that, but it's not journalism. And if you're

598
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 1: doing both ciderisms right, it means you're listening to all

599
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:42,359
Speaker 1: sides and then you test the claims against actual evidence. Now, look,

600
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: there's lazy both sides isms, right when when reporters just

601
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 1: lazily equate facts with opinion, sciences say climate change is real,

602
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 1: critics disagree, that's that's that's stupid both siderisms. What you

603
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 1: do is you lay out the arguments. Here's what climate

604
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 1: scientists are saying, here's those who think that this is

605
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,919
Speaker 1: they're making an argument that says that climate science is overreacting,

606
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 1: and here's why. The question is what are we going

607
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 1: to do about it? But I'll tell you this, it's

608
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,720
Speaker 1: in moments of this huge political division that I miss

609
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: the times when we had where both were people that

610
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 1: regardless of the side of the ale you're on, you

611
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: felt like you were welcome pretty much in any political

612
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:39,359
Speaker 1: talk show, in any political green room. And I don't

613
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 1: think anybody thinks that right now. I promise you this.

614
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:51,359
Speaker 1: I'd like to think I am we are trying here

615
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 1: to make this a home for that. I'm not going

616
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 1: to sit here and round the edges for you, you know.

617
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 1: I'm I'm going to speak truth to power in my

618
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 1: own head, meaning what I believe. But I also I'm

619
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 1: a stubborn incrementalist, and I'm fully aware that we're three

620
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty million people with three hundred and fifty

621
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 1: million different opinions, and you've got a sort of you

622
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 1: want everybody rowing in the same direction. You've got to

623
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:26,359
Speaker 1: do baby steps, and you've got to be talking to

624
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:31,399
Speaker 1: each other not past each other. All right, I lecture over.

625
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 1: I know I went long. I didn't think I had

626
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:38,359
Speaker 1: more to say, but yes, I just defended what some

627
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 1: of you call both siders journalism, and what I call

628
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 1: is is creating a vehicle so that everybody is in

629
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 1: the same room trying to make their case, and a

630
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 1: good journalist is there simply to test the premise of

631
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 1: the cases that they are making. So with that, I

632
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 1: hope you enjoyed my interview with Frank Lavin. And when

633
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 1: we come back my history Lesson seventeen ninety six. Well,

634
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 1: joining me now is my friend Frank Lavin. He has

635
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 1: written a terrific book. I guess you could call it

636
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 1: a personal memoir, but it's sort of about his professional

637
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,359
Speaker 1: life working in the Reagan White House. I've even got

638
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 1: it here. It's called Inside the Reagan White House by

639
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:34,320
Speaker 1: Frank Lavin. And a word of warning, Frank it loves

640
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: a good dad pun like I do. So for anybody

641
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 1: under the age of forty listening right now, be prepared

642
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,839
Speaker 1: for some terrible cordy jokes for both of us, because

643
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: when the two of us get together, we can feed

644
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,879
Speaker 1: off of that. But Frank, it's good to see you, Chack.

645
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me on.

646
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 2: It's a lot of fun. Always great to chat with you.

647
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 2: I always learned something, And thanks for talking about the

648
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:56,760
Speaker 2: book about half memoirs, about half sort of political science.

649
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 2: How does presidential power work? How does presidential speak to me?

650
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 2: So half of the sort of White House operations, half

651
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 2: of it's my personal.

652
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 1: Journey, which you had a terrific forward by a historian

653
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 1: who noted that the memoirs are sometimes the worst place

654
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:14,360
Speaker 1: to find out what happened in an administration, because I

655
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,520
Speaker 1: think he quotes Kissinger when he says that you know, everybody,

656
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: when they remember a conversation, they always remember the great line.

657
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 1: They said, they never seem to remember the great line.

658
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:24,439
Speaker 1: Somebody else said on that.

659
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 2: From no question, there's a lot of subjectivity. Well, I

660
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 2: would tell anybody read more than one biography, read more

661
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:33,839
Speaker 2: than one history. Don't just read one and think I've

662
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 2: got it, because there's a slightly different perspectives, slightly a

663
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:38,359
Speaker 2: bit of a kaleidoscope in there.

664
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 1: So you're absolutely right, Well, I have found myself. Actually,

665
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 1: you know, I remember this is diverging a little bit.

666
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 1: I've read probably four different books on the eighteen seventy

667
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: six election, the great disputed election of the nineteenth century.

668
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 1: And I've come to the conclusion that it's the it's

669
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 1: the politics of the author that shapes the analysis of

670
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 1: that election. And I've read, like I said, four different

671
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 1: ones where boy, the facts all seemed to be the same,

672
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 1: but the takeaway has all been more about the author

673
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:13,280
Speaker 1: than about the times.

674
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 2: And back to modern era too, without a doubt, that

675
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 2: is the single most common bias. That if you didn't

676
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 2: really like John F. Kennedy, then your biography John F.

677
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 2: Kennedy is gonna be pretty harsh. But you thought this

678
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 2: guy was actually pretty impressive, then you're going to be

679
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 2: more disposed to applaud the guy. So this is there's

680
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 2: always subjectivity in this, MiGs.

681
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 1: But look, we're talking here on we're taping this and

682
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 1: on a time stamp it for folks so they know

683
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 1: September eleventh, Thursday, and it's twenty four hours after the

684
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: assassination of a political activist, Charlie Kirk. And you know, Frank,

685
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 1: your coming of age was as it was as a

686
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:56,320
Speaker 1: was with the turning point of the seventies, young Americans

687
00:47:56,320 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 1: for Freedom, and I meaning that this was the this

688
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 1: is the heart of the Reagan movement. The College Republicans

689
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 1: weren't cutting it in some ways, right, young Americans for Freedom.

690
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 2: Would I was with both, I was with both. I

691
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 2: enjoyed College Republicans.

692
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was more movement, more movement, right, Yeah,

693
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 1: And I think that's the same thing today. Turning point

694
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 1: is the movement college Republicans a little bit more traditional,

695
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,360
Speaker 1: and you still sort of see that split. It's just

696
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: that the the offfers aren't aren't as prominent as they

697
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 1: used to be. I think they changed their name recaving

698
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 1: maybe if I'm not mistaken. But and it it's not

699
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:38,319
Speaker 1: lost on me that you start your book talking about

700
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 1: January sixth and saying that it was a motivator for

701
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 1: you to write about the Reagan era. Where are we

702
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 1: as a country and how would Reagan be handling this moment?

703
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 2: Well, I think there's been a lot of decay. I

704
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 2: think there's been a great deal of deterioration in our

705
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 2: political ciment, both in our discourse. That whole Overton window

706
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,840
Speaker 2: it shifted where now it's commonplace for national leaders to

707
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 2: use really kind of insulting language or even swear words.

708
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 2: Reagan would never do that. Reagan always tried to have

709
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 2: an elevated discourse, even if he was unhappy about something,

710
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 2: as a way to make a point and start with substance,

711
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 2: start with a particular point you're trying to make it,

712
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 2: and you could use humor and other elements to it.

713
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:18,800
Speaker 2: But Reagan kept a million miles away from denigrating anybody,

714
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 2: even a long type Tip O'Neil, somebody who is a

715
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 2: long time political adversary might tell a joke about Tip

716
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:26,720
Speaker 2: O'Neil or Ted Kennedy, but he would not ever suit

717
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:27,800
Speaker 2: to insulting those people.

718
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 1: So it's been a bit of deterioration in the last

719
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 1: few years. It's a it's it's you know, it's like

720
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 1: we've forgotten how to debate. You know, everything is existential.

721
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: I really do put the blame on our information ecosystem

722
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:44,279
Speaker 1: that we've created an incentive structure that only I mean,

723
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 1: I look at one of the prime examples. You know,

724
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 1: my favorite new expression and it comes from Scotland Saccombe's

725
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:55,320
Speaker 1: who's a news letter writer at the Dispatch, is nut picking. Yeah,

726
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:58,280
Speaker 1: all right, you know where I'm going with this nut picking, which.

727
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 2: Is take a ragious put thing on that the side,

728
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 2: right and you.

729
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 1: Say, look, this is what they're saying, right, And it

730
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 1: is really sort of how many of the biggest sort

731
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,439
Speaker 1: of left leaning and right leaning influencers, this is how

732
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 1: they make their money. Right.

733
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 2: Social media rewards audacity, rewards outrageous statements and awards in theatrics,

734
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 2: and rewards inflammatory states. So it does and it punishes

735
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 2: the serious, substantive conversation. I mean, Mitt Romney would have

736
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 2: a lot of trouble getting a hearing or Al Gore

737
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 2: or Bill Bradley if you said, here's some ideas on

738
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 2: how to reduce the deficit. Boy, nobody's clicking on that.

739
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 2: But if you say, not picking, here's the most outrageous

740
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:41,839
Speaker 2: thing that somebody other side said and we all need

741
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 2: to be emotionally outraged by it, then that's going to

742
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:45,320
Speaker 2: get some following.

743
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:50,359
Speaker 1: And so it's this is one of those moments where

744
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: I fear this is you know, there's the expression things

745
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 1: are going to have to get worse before they get better,

746
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 1: and I fear things are going to get worse before

747
00:50:57,960 --> 00:50:58,479
Speaker 1: they get worse.

748
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 2: It's always darkest before it's pitch black, right, the great

749
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,759
Speaker 2: James John McCain's statement, Yeah, I don't think we've hit

750
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 2: bottom yet. I don't think we've hit bottom yet, but

751
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 2: I do have ultimate faith American people, and I do

752
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,799
Speaker 2: think what happens is a fatigue sets in of saying

753
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 2: okay after your emotional stent and you've radiated all of

754
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:20,319
Speaker 2: your hatreds and you know, but by the way, is

755
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 2: there any idea about how to solve the deficit, or

756
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:24,760
Speaker 2: any idea about how to use tech to improve public

757
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 2: school education, or any ideas at all that would make

758
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 2: America a better place? But let's hear them. Let's have

759
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 2: an avenue for airing some of these cool ideas.

760
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 1: So let's go back to your time in polic What

761
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 1: I love about your book, and it's I'm sort of

762
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:41,879
Speaker 1: is the fact that you know, I feel like we've

763
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 1: we've been been growing a friendship over the years. But

764
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:46,839
Speaker 1: after reading the book, it's like, I really know you now,

765
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:49,400
Speaker 1: and now I'm sort of like you don't know me

766
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 1: as well as now that I know you, like you

767
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:56,280
Speaker 1: get your book exactly. You shared a lot. I'm curious

768
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,320
Speaker 1: how did your family react. They did they see or

769
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 1: hear things that they didn't hadn't heard her from you before?

770
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 1: Or were these all old stories.

771
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 2: There were some polite groans, and I think it was

772
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:12,440
Speaker 2: more along the lines of we all sort of know

773
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 2: this is true, or we've heard elements of this before,

774
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 2: but would you really have to publicize this as this

775
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:21,319
Speaker 2: reason is too revealing or too much information. And of

776
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,719
Speaker 2: course that's a generational concept, meaning for younger people you

777
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:26,720
Speaker 2: can talk about anything, share anything.

778
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:28,280
Speaker 1: There's no sense of inhibition.

779
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 2: For our generation, there's a little bit of sense of

780
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 2: privacy or the bubble or something. And look, I understand that,

781
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 2: and I was not. I'm not by nature an exhibitionist

782
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 2: or oversharing. But unless you give people a little bit

783
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:44,360
Speaker 2: of sense of what motivates you personally and how I

784
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 2: fell in love in college and I married my wife,

785
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 2: and you know, unless you tell people a little bit

786
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,440
Speaker 2: of your journey, it's harder for them to relate to

787
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:53,320
Speaker 2: what you're talking about. Then you are, forgive me, you

788
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 2: are sort of being a Mitt Romney or Al Gore

789
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:56,320
Speaker 2: and you're just saying, let me tell you about the

790
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:57,800
Speaker 2: plan to balance the budget.

791
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 1: Then nobody wants to read that. No, it's fun you

792
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 1: bring up Romney and and and Gore like that. I'd

793
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 1: probably throw Bob Dole in there where they all became

794
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 1: more interesting after their campaigns. They all let their guard.

795
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:12,280
Speaker 1: You know, it's like once we once they became human

796
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:14,440
Speaker 1: beings after they lost. I think you're right.

797
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:17,240
Speaker 2: Everything is sort of a job interview during the campaign,

798
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 2: you know, make sure you've got the clean shirt and

799
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 2: sky and formal answers, and it is.

800
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:23,280
Speaker 1: It is like a job interview.

801
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:25,439
Speaker 2: But afterwards you could say, you know, I never really

802
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:27,480
Speaker 2: cared for that one individual, or that guy always drove

803
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 2: me down to that guy never did the job he's

804
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 2: supposed to do. And you can kind of share some

805
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:32,719
Speaker 2: of your and I I try to give some of that.

806
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 2: I try to say I do have personal impressions some

807
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:37,279
Speaker 2: of these guys. But but you know, the wrong way

808
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:39,399
Speaker 2: to do it is grinding an axe, of saying I'm

809
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 2: here to settle scores, I'm here to take shots of people.

810
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 2: I mean, I said, I don't want to do that.

811
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 2: I'm only I'm not going to mention anybody by name

812
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,759
Speaker 2: who I'm saying I had a problem with and and

813
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 2: and I'm just doing to illustrate color, illustrate controversy differences.

814
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 2: So I'm not trying to pay back or punch somebody

815
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 2: in the nose.

816
00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 1: Let me, let me give you what I What I

817
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 1: like is my most challenging political question for you, which

818
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 1: is what would the Reagan years have been like had

819
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 1: he had full Republican control of Congress.

820
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:10,280
Speaker 2: I think you would have been more aggressive and more successful.

821
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:12,880
Speaker 2: Aggressive In terms of his policy program, I think you

822
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 2: would have been a little more successful. For example, I

823
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:20,440
Speaker 2: think the greatest point of policy frustration was more serious

824
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 2: effort on the budget. And that is a tough tough

825
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:27,560
Speaker 2: sell because you're taking something away from somebody. You're depriving somebody,

826
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:31,839
Speaker 2: if some revenue program grant god knows what, and then

827
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 2: so it's immediate pain, short term pain, and it's the

828
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:37,399
Speaker 2: benefits are only long term systemic. The benefits are saying

829
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 2: we're moving to a balanced budget, interest rates are dropping,

830
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 2: the whole society is better off. But boy, that is

831
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:44,799
Speaker 2: a tough sell. So you need to you really need

832
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 2: to have Congressional support and get it through at front

833
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:49,680
Speaker 2: end so that within two or three years people are saying,

834
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 2: you know, Reagan was right, we do have a better

835
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:52,799
Speaker 2: economy now because we made some tough calls of fore

836
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 2: years ago, we never really got there on the budget issues.

837
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 1: I say that because I you know one of the things,

838
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 1: and I guess it goes. And it's a question I've

839
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 1: been thinking about making more of a constant question I

840
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 1: ask of any elected official, which is, if you win

841
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:10,279
Speaker 1: an election fifty one to forty nine, what is your

842
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 1: responsibility of governing for the forty nine?

843
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 2: You know what I would say. I would say, you

844
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:17,600
Speaker 2: go as fast as you can on your agenda. If

845
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 2: you believe in your agenda, you believe in your policies.

846
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:22,919
Speaker 1: This is you. The door is open. You won this thing.

847
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 1: It's not a coalition government.

848
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 2: There's no legal or moral obligation to say, well, George

849
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:30,879
Speaker 2: mcgovernent is actually forty two percent correct, we better listen

850
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:33,319
Speaker 2: to them. You won the darn thing, and you take

851
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 2: it where you want to go. Then theoretically you're only

852
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:39,239
Speaker 2: following these policies that help the country. So theoretically you've

853
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 2: got an opening of twelve twenty four months, and at

854
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 2: the end of those week once you say, see I

855
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 2: got through this, I got my program in, we're all

856
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 2: now better off. So I would advise a president to

857
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 2: move if you win the election, you move along your

858
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 2: policy agenda.

859
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 1: Well, I hear you there, and yet I feel like

860
00:55:56,560 --> 00:56:00,880
Speaker 1: we've gotten further away from governing for everybody and that

861
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:04,800
Speaker 1: we now only govern for our supporters, and that's that's concern.

862
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 1: And I don't like there's a fine line, you know

863
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 1: that I'm maybe I'm trying to draw here, and so, yes,

864
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:13,880
Speaker 1: I agree in the backcro but take what RFK is

865
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 1: doing with vaccines. A majority didn't vote for that, sure,

866
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 1: and so and I think they're making a huge political

867
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:23,919
Speaker 1: mistake by essentially, you know, allowing it to be seen

868
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 1: as part of the agenda. I mean, I just think

869
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:29,760
Speaker 1: that it's potentially a huge political problem. So my point

870
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 1: being is that, you know, I believe the last group

871
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 1: of voters that decided this election weren't necessarily voting for.

872
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:40,360
Speaker 1: They were voting against. And to me, if you're governing,

873
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 1: do you think about that or not? And if you don't,

874
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 1: is that a mistake? Well, look, this is a great topic,

875
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:47,840
Speaker 1: get it.

876
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:51,799
Speaker 2: I would just say directly, Bobby Kennedy is not qualified

877
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:54,760
Speaker 2: to be secretary and he shouldn't be in that position,

878
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 2: and his weird attitude towards science just sort of eliminate

879
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:03,200
Speaker 2: him from serious considerations. So I would say that is

880
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 2: a very different case than your general question about to

881
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 2: you an obligations to minorities or something, And.

882
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:11,680
Speaker 1: I may have taken the most extreme example, but it

883
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:13,720
Speaker 1: is in order to pay, in order to at least

884
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:16,920
Speaker 1: get people to understand the picture I'm trying to draw here.

885
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, but I think in general, in general, political

886
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 2: leadership moves as aggressively as they can toward their policy

887
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:31,160
Speaker 2: agenda within the political constraints that have So Ronald Reagan

888
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:34,000
Speaker 2: needed to get a third of the Democrats to support

889
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:36,280
Speaker 2: his initiatives, so he had to talk to them and

890
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:37,520
Speaker 2: had to listen to him, and he had a trim

891
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 2: of his tax cut ideas, and he got some support

892
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 2: of Nicaragua, but he was eventually limited by Boland the

893
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 2: Bowling Amendment. So the point is he had good news

894
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:48,280
Speaker 2: and bad news, good days and bad days. But he

895
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 2: worked very hard across the eight years to say I

896
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:53,360
Speaker 2: need as much support as I can for my program.

897
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:57,640
Speaker 2: But meaning his constraints were the formal political constraints, not

898
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:00,960
Speaker 2: not a thought of saying, well, disagree with me, and

899
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:04,360
Speaker 2: some people think that so so, but I don't blame

900
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 2: anybody in public life for pursuing their agenda. He ran

901
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:11,200
Speaker 2: on a program and he won and he should pursue

902
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:12,000
Speaker 2: his program.

903
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 1: But I think about how Clinton and Reagan are portrayed

904
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:19,320
Speaker 1: now in history, not in the moment that they both governed. Right,

905
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 1: There was certainly that antagonism for both of them, and

906
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:26,840
Speaker 1: they both ended up their legacies have benefited from the

907
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 1: fact that the other party had some power. Yes, and

908
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 1: I forced them to be a different kind of leader.

909
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:34,840
Speaker 1: I don't know what kind of leader Clinton is if

910
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,720
Speaker 1: he's all, if he's partisan for seven years, I don't

911
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:40,400
Speaker 1: know what kind of leader if Reagan is, if he's

912
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:41,360
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, right.

913
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:44,280
Speaker 2: Your point now is accurate, but it's a very different point.

914
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 1: I agree. But then it's going, if you didn't have power,

915
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 1: should you listen to the other guys?

916
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:50,960
Speaker 2: Yes, I don't think so. And now you're saying, if

917
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:53,880
Speaker 2: you do have power, you got them. So Clinton and Reagan,

918
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 2: You're absolutely right. Both had to trim their sales or

919
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 2: adjust or accommodate some people on the other side, and

920
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:02,320
Speaker 2: it gave them some flexibility and it might have actually

921
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 2: helped them through the course of that. It allowed Clinton,

922
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:09,000
Speaker 2: for example, to always contend he was the good guy,

923
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:11,720
Speaker 2: so to speak. And Kingrich is the villain of this story.

924
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:13,000
Speaker 2: Even if it's a common.

925
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 1: I get pulled off the same thing. Arguably, absolutely absolutely so.

926
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 1: And you're right.

927
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:19,680
Speaker 2: If Trump was reduced to sort of more of a

928
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:22,640
Speaker 2: rhetorical presidency where he was just angry and happy about

929
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:26,040
Speaker 2: something but there weren't changes in vaccine policy or something,

930
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:28,280
Speaker 2: you know, he might be more successful because I think

931
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 2: people like the extent Trump is popular. I think people

932
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 2: liked the idea of Donald Trump much more than actually

933
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:36,520
Speaker 2: like Donald Trump as president. But they like the idea

934
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 2: of a contrarian or somebody shaking up the system, or

935
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 2: somebody's kicking over established norms.

936
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:43,120
Speaker 1: It's always kind of appealing.

937
00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:44,600
Speaker 2: But then when he actually does it, you might end

938
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 2: up worse than where you were before you started.

939
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:49,439
Speaker 1: No, I look at it and it's like, why why

940
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:51,680
Speaker 1: were there better memories of Trump one point oh to

941
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 1: some voters? And I do think some voters are like, well,

942
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:57,240
Speaker 1: I thought I was voting for Trump one point oh,

943
00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:00,440
Speaker 1: not this new thing right type of mindset. And I

944
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 1: think it's because we had there were some And I

945
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:06,680
Speaker 1: guess the question is and we're sort of dancing around it,

946
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:10,040
Speaker 1: which is most politicians only deal with the other side

947
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:11,160
Speaker 1: if they have to, not if they want.

948
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 2: I think that's the truth of life. By the way,

949
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:16,520
Speaker 2: I can't blame them. They did win the election. He's

950
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:18,400
Speaker 2: got an open door to do what he wants to do.

951
01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:20,640
Speaker 2: And I'll say this, you can be happy about Donald Trump.

952
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 2: You can be unhappy Donald Trump. You really can't be

953
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:25,240
Speaker 2: surprised when he says I'm going to shut down the border.

954
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:27,240
Speaker 2: He shut down the border. What he said, I don't

955
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:29,919
Speaker 2: want to see men competing on women's sports. He doesn't

956
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:32,320
Speaker 2: want to see men computer So you can't be I'm

957
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 2: surprised by any of this. He is a pretty consistent.

958
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 1: Guy, since we're in the sort of that period of

959
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:44,760
Speaker 1: the Republican Party. Earlier this week was the fifty first

960
01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:50,120
Speaker 1: anniversary of Ford's decision to pardon Nixon. Yeah, and I

961
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 1: think it iss not aged. I personally believe it is

962
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:57,520
Speaker 1: not aged. Well that it we you know that all

963
01:00:57,560 --> 01:01:00,760
Speaker 1: of it, And for forty years, the conventional wisdom has been,

964
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:04,000
Speaker 1: you know, he put the country first. Yeah, but I

965
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:06,640
Speaker 1: could argue he actually put his own presidency first, right,

966
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:10,800
Speaker 1: because a Nixon trial might have been consuming of his presidency.

967
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:14,080
Speaker 1: So let me ask you this odd question in that

968
01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:17,880
Speaker 1: if Ford doesn't pardon Nixon. Does Reagan win the primary?

969
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:23,440
Speaker 1: Oh in uh no, seventy I don't think so.

970
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 2: I think, by the way, all of the comments you

971
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 2: were making about politics day, that deterioration and that polarization

972
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 2: in the rank rps, I think we would have seen

973
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 2: that in the Nixon trial. I think half the country

974
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:37,360
Speaker 2: would have said, look, the guy resigned, the guy is destroyed.

975
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:39,040
Speaker 1: Politically, let it go, Let it go.

976
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:44,120
Speaker 2: But but there's a highly animated, energized, sort of ideological

977
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 2: group of saying I hate Nixon, I just hate Nixon,

978
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:49,360
Speaker 2: and I live to hate Nixon, and I love hating Nixon.

979
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 1: I'm going to keep hating Nixon. So you would have

980
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:54,000
Speaker 1: fed that flame for years, and I.

981
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:55,640
Speaker 2: Think we would have just seen the deterioration in the

982
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 2: ranker I by the way, it's all conjecture, but I

983
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:02,160
Speaker 2: think Ford his best to say, look, this guy's been destroyed,

984
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:05,080
Speaker 2: he's been kicked out of office. History is going to

985
01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:07,400
Speaker 2: be brutal to him, and let's just move on. Let's

986
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:08,360
Speaker 2: move on as a country.

987
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 1: So, but do you also believe that probably doomed his

988
01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:19,120
Speaker 1: ability to win his own term. Maybe maybe it's certainly

989
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:22,160
Speaker 1: he certainly fell apart after that he did climb out

990
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:25,000
Speaker 1: of that hole, and he was closing on Carter as

991
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:26,960
Speaker 1: we know as that last debate with his comments on

992
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:31,520
Speaker 1: pole and inexplicable comments. But it was basically a tide campaign. Yeah,

993
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:35,440
Speaker 1: my friend Doug Bailey, My friend Doug Bailey contendency. He

994
01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:37,960
Speaker 1: still blames Gallup, he blame or not. Still he's been

995
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:41,120
Speaker 1: no longer with us. But he blamed three entities for

996
01:02:41,160 --> 01:02:44,280
Speaker 1: the one point loss. One was the Gallop poll on

997
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:46,840
Speaker 1: the Saturday before the election that showed Ford ahead, because

998
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:48,600
Speaker 1: the minute the country saw that, wait a minute for

999
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:51,600
Speaker 1: it's gonna win. No, no, no, we didn't want that. The

1000
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:54,160
Speaker 1: second that if Ford had been one point behind, ran

1001
01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:59,919
Speaker 1: an election day. The second was the Dole gaff if

1002
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:02,960
Speaker 1: Democrat war wars. And then the third was the was

1003
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:05,040
Speaker 1: the Nixon partment when you lose by a percentage point,

1004
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 1: you know, right, it could be anything, but those are

1005
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:08,400
Speaker 1: the three he always identify.

1006
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 2: And I got to say, even though I think we're

1007
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:14,480
Speaker 2: both probably the same view of Jimmy Carter's limitations and

1008
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:18,880
Speaker 2: sort of shortcomings president as a candidate, as a persona

1009
01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:20,120
Speaker 2: he was fabulous.

1010
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:22,240
Speaker 1: He was what he meant the moment he was meeting

1011
01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:24,840
Speaker 1: the moment that people wanted, that we want to cleanse

1012
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 1: the country.

1013
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:29,280
Speaker 2: Right, Absolutely no DC connection at all. Sunday School teacher

1014
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:32,120
Speaker 2: Annapolis grad to say, he looks like the most pristine

1015
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:36,480
Speaker 2: fellow we could find, and he's completely unobjectionable as persona.

1016
01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:38,880
Speaker 2: So let's just get in some guy from the outside

1017
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:43,320
Speaker 2: and cut completely this whole Nixon Ford mess we've got

1018
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:45,240
Speaker 2: and get the most different person we could find.

1019
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:47,800
Speaker 1: It's sort of where my head is at in twenty eight,

1020
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:51,200
Speaker 1: like I do, like I'm wondering if that is the

1021
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:54,120
Speaker 1: you know, as all as a Gavin Newsom thinks, you know,

1022
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:56,200
Speaker 1: going hard on this is the way to go, or

1023
01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:59,760
Speaker 1: a or a JB. Pritzker. You know, I look at

1024
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 1: the names tallerricos of the world, and you know, and

1025
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:06,360
Speaker 1: he maybe got the better message here and he doesn't

1026
01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:07,840
Speaker 1: have a DC stain on him.

1027
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:11,360
Speaker 2: Well, one of the lessons to me is both parties

1028
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:14,480
Speaker 2: have huge problem and somewhat parallel problem, and that their

1029
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:19,240
Speaker 2: traditional pill or the traditional rationale of support has significantly faded.

1030
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:24,240
Speaker 2: Meaning for the Democrats that old economic justice or misery

1031
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:27,520
Speaker 2: to say, look that that just doesn't motivate people in

1032
01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:30,120
Speaker 2: a middle class country. The way it might have fifty

1033
01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:34,320
Speaker 2: years ago. So to simply say I'm Bernie Sanders and

1034
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:36,480
Speaker 2: I hate rich people more than you hate rich people

1035
01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:39,640
Speaker 2: doesn't get you fifty percent of the vote. There's got

1036
01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:41,800
Speaker 2: to be some I mean, the left will always have

1037
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:45,640
Speaker 2: an element of economic you know, orientation to that message,

1038
01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:49,160
Speaker 2: but that doesn't get you above the Democratic base nowadays.

1039
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:51,720
Speaker 2: So what else can you say running on the left

1040
01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:54,880
Speaker 2: that will allow Middle America to say, this guy, he's

1041
01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:56,680
Speaker 2: another Jimmy Carter, another Bill Clinton.

1042
01:04:56,840 --> 01:05:01,240
Speaker 1: Let's give this fellow a chance. What's the pillar on there?

1043
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:02,840
Speaker 1: You were saying both parties on the right.

1044
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:05,000
Speaker 2: Actually you made this point to bear on the right

1045
01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:08,880
Speaker 2: is international stability. It's the Cold War international leadership to

1046
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:11,080
Speaker 2: say with the Republican Party was always the party of

1047
01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:16,880
Speaker 2: stability and sound international security. And to say, okay, but

1048
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:19,600
Speaker 2: there's no immediate threat, there's no Soviet Union, there's no

1049
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:20,640
Speaker 2: immediate problem.

1050
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:23,040
Speaker 1: We just don't need to play that international role we've

1051
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:39,200
Speaker 1: historically played. So what would Reagan be doing right now

1052
01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:41,920
Speaker 1: with Putin and Ukraine. I think he definitely would be

1053
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:43,560
Speaker 1: pushing back. I think it would definitely be no.

1054
01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:46,520
Speaker 2: I mean, all during Cold War architecture for a decade

1055
01:05:46,520 --> 01:05:51,080
Speaker 2: after the Cold War, simply having territorial aggression in itself

1056
01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:54,560
Speaker 2: was viewed as a warning sign, not that we had

1057
01:05:54,600 --> 01:05:57,120
Speaker 2: to get involved militarily or support, but to say, if

1058
01:05:57,760 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 2: you don't attach a cost to Putin's aggression, you are

1059
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:06,200
Speaker 2: inviting more aggression. So you better make sure that the

1060
01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:08,000
Speaker 2: cost to seed the benefit. And by the way, the

1061
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:11,840
Speaker 2: huge beneficiary of that would be US and China. To say,

1062
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:14,560
Speaker 2: if you want to deflect China from any ambition in Taiwan,

1063
01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:17,600
Speaker 2: make sure Vladimir Putin has a bloody nose in Ukraine.

1064
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 2: Make sure there's a high, high cost of what he's doing,

1065
01:06:19,880 --> 01:06:21,520
Speaker 2: and China is going to be a little more subdued.

1066
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:24,520
Speaker 1: Well. Look, one of the things that I actually would

1067
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:26,800
Speaker 1: like to pivot our conversation too, because you're a former

1068
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:29,640
Speaker 1: ambassador of Singapore, You've spent a you've worked in Hong Kong,

1069
01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:34,520
Speaker 1: you've sort of you you probably understand the Taiwan situation.

1070
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:36,960
Speaker 1: I just had a member of Congress on who just

1071
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:42,040
Speaker 1: came from a codel in in Asia is and is

1072
01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:45,800
Speaker 1: really concerned that our weakness on Ukraine is only going

1073
01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:50,880
Speaker 1: to is only going to motivate China to feel as if, hey,

1074
01:06:51,080 --> 01:06:53,760
Speaker 1: if we go after Taiwan and twenty seven, Trump isn't

1075
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:54,360
Speaker 1: going to do a thing.

1076
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:59,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'd say this, it's a very common a

1077
01:06:59,560 --> 01:07:03,280
Speaker 2: minute ago that any sense that the US is not

1078
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:05,040
Speaker 2: going to live up to its word and not going

1079
01:07:05,080 --> 01:07:07,680
Speaker 2: to honor security commitments, or not going to attach a

1080
01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:09,680
Speaker 2: cost of bad behavior, any sense of that that it's

1081
01:07:09,720 --> 01:07:13,080
Speaker 2: phoning empty, they're going to move. And by the way,

1082
01:07:13,600 --> 01:07:17,160
Speaker 2: we can go back to Pewtin's first grab in Ukraine,

1083
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:22,480
Speaker 2: which was crimea right, and whatever Obama did out of that,

1084
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:26,720
Speaker 2: Obviously Putin said I'm empowered. I'm getting It's not directly

1085
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:29,960
Speaker 2: a green light, but it is a very clear statement

1086
01:07:29,960 --> 01:07:33,160
Speaker 2: from Washington that if you grab territory, the benefits succeed

1087
01:07:33,200 --> 01:07:37,720
Speaker 2: the cost. What Obama did, he had not sanctions on Russia,

1088
01:07:37,760 --> 01:07:40,000
Speaker 2: but there are certain citizens he puts sactions on in Russia.

1089
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:43,120
Speaker 2: And then he said we're going to boycott the Special

1090
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:45,760
Speaker 2: Olympics were soci so he said we're going to boycott

1091
01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:49,200
Speaker 2: the Paralympics, and that was his cost he attached. So

1092
01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:51,640
Speaker 2: that's a green light to Peutin. That's if you smash

1093
01:07:51,720 --> 01:07:54,800
Speaker 2: and grab territory, nothing is going to happen, so they

1094
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:56,920
Speaker 2: took that as a big plus. So that was, to

1095
01:07:56,960 --> 01:07:59,160
Speaker 2: my mind, that was mismanagement. And I think Trump is

1096
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 2: piling on that. Trump is not interested in attaching a cost.

1097
01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:05,240
Speaker 2: At least you could say to defend Obomba, at least

1098
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:07,439
Speaker 2: you could say at least his rhetoric was critical of Putin.

1099
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:10,000
Speaker 2: At least you said Putin is the aggressor here. And

1100
01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:12,800
Speaker 2: Trump won't even go that far. So I think we're

1101
01:08:12,800 --> 01:08:15,520
Speaker 2: in a sort of a long term period of having

1102
01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:19,160
Speaker 2: our returns being called into question, and that empowers the

1103
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:22,920
Speaker 2: malevolent countries. That empowers all these guys who are expansionists

1104
01:08:22,960 --> 01:08:24,800
Speaker 2: and are sniffing around for opportunity.

1105
01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:31,240
Speaker 1: So if the Japanese, if the Filipinos, if the South

1106
01:08:31,320 --> 01:08:36,240
Speaker 1: Korean sense that the Alliance of the United States only

1107
01:08:36,280 --> 01:08:40,120
Speaker 1: will go so far in providing a check on China,

1108
01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:45,240
Speaker 1: how does that change their behavior? Absolutely? It changes.

1109
01:08:45,280 --> 01:08:47,760
Speaker 2: I think everybody's got to trim their sales. Everybody's got

1110
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:50,880
Speaker 2: to accommodate themselves to reality. And if they say the

1111
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:54,120
Speaker 2: reality is the United States is not interested in leadership

1112
01:08:54,479 --> 01:08:57,920
Speaker 2: or costs or risks associated with the turning China. It's

1113
01:08:57,920 --> 01:09:01,360
Speaker 2: just too expensive force and pretend it hurts our trade.

1114
01:09:01,479 --> 01:09:04,719
Speaker 2: We just have no appetite for pushing back against China.

1115
01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:07,800
Speaker 2: Japan has to live with that reality. They can say,

1116
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:09,240
Speaker 2: we can't do it by ourselves, So we have to

1117
01:09:09,280 --> 01:09:11,519
Speaker 2: find some way to accommodate China or to a little

1118
01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:13,800
Speaker 2: more toward China Korea, all the more so since they

1119
01:09:13,840 --> 01:09:16,920
Speaker 2: have contiguous territory in North Korea. So everybody has to

1120
01:09:16,960 --> 01:09:19,000
Speaker 2: adjust if the United States leaves the room.

1121
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:22,360
Speaker 1: And that adjustment means a tad more accommodation to the

1122
01:09:22,600 --> 01:09:25,240
Speaker 1: to the Chinese tab or accommodation to the Chinese.

1123
01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:28,240
Speaker 2: Absolutely, if they can't take us seriously, they have to

1124
01:09:28,240 --> 01:09:29,320
Speaker 2: take China seriously.

1125
01:09:29,640 --> 01:09:31,120
Speaker 1: So that, by the way, you're.

1126
01:09:30,960 --> 01:09:35,320
Speaker 2: Just articulating the overall logic behind US international leadership to

1127
01:09:35,320 --> 01:09:39,800
Speaker 2: say we are the indispensable nation. Is that book title provided,

1128
01:09:40,240 --> 01:09:43,200
Speaker 2: And we can be part of any alliance architecture, but

1129
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:43,960
Speaker 2: we've got to be there.

1130
01:09:43,960 --> 01:09:45,480
Speaker 1: We've got to be part of that conversation.

1131
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:47,840
Speaker 2: We've got to have a mutual defense treaty, we've got

1132
01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:50,479
Speaker 2: to be willing to commit in case of war.

1133
01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:53,639
Speaker 1: And then that's taken seriously. Look I look at I mean,

1134
01:09:54,120 --> 01:09:56,599
Speaker 1: I'm going into another part of the globe here. But

1135
01:09:57,280 --> 01:09:59,680
Speaker 1: there's a conversation going on with the Katari's wondering, Wait

1136
01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:01,559
Speaker 1: a minute, we have this huge US base and it

1137
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:06,000
Speaker 1: didn't prevent our territory from being attacked like that. That

1138
01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:10,000
Speaker 1: is that is that is uh, which is why apparently

1139
01:10:10,040 --> 01:10:14,320
Speaker 1: we're the US right now is desperately trying to you know, uh,

1140
01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:18,960
Speaker 1: calm the kataris down, which I sort of get. Right,

1141
01:10:19,040 --> 01:10:21,040
Speaker 1: you make a deal with the US, you assume that

1142
01:10:21,160 --> 01:10:23,160
Speaker 1: provides some umbrella. There wasn't.

1143
01:10:23,240 --> 01:10:25,519
Speaker 2: There wasn't a mutual security guarantee with cut Art.

1144
01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:29,080
Speaker 1: It's not a formal, but they thought hosting our base

1145
01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:32,080
Speaker 1: was sort of the you know, like, well they're not

1146
01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:33,920
Speaker 1: going to let anything happen to their base, so that

1147
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:35,720
Speaker 1: should help us, right, Yeah.

1148
01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:38,280
Speaker 2: You know, you can tell I'm more ambivalent about this

1149
01:10:38,360 --> 01:10:39,840
Speaker 2: because I don't you know.

1150
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:41,880
Speaker 1: I am too. I'm not sure where to put the

1151
01:10:41,960 --> 01:10:44,479
Speaker 1: Katari's on here, and I'm a little uncomfortable with Karis

1152
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:49,920
Speaker 1: themselves played both sides in and Hamas is a terrorist organization,

1153
01:10:50,080 --> 01:10:53,240
Speaker 1: so they were harboring let's sit down with the Ku

1154
01:10:53,360 --> 01:10:54,880
Speaker 1: Klux Klan and negotiate.

1155
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:56,920
Speaker 2: We would say, let's get rid of the Ku Klux

1156
01:10:56,960 --> 01:10:59,720
Speaker 2: Klan wouldn't say, let's sit down with the IRA, nor

1157
01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:02,599
Speaker 2: a negotia. We'd say to IRA is a bad organization,

1158
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:04,479
Speaker 2: and we ought to get rid of them so well,

1159
01:11:04,479 --> 01:11:07,000
Speaker 2: but didn't. Didn't they eventually sit down with the IRA,

1160
01:11:07,240 --> 01:11:11,040
Speaker 2: didn't they eventually? I right, and didn't And didn't the

1161
01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:12,799
Speaker 2: US eventually sit down with the Taliban?

1162
01:11:14,040 --> 01:11:14,280
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1163
01:11:14,360 --> 01:11:17,360
Speaker 2: Now, was that wives or foolish? And as Afghanistan either

1164
01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:19,840
Speaker 2: or not I think is an open question. But you

1165
01:11:19,880 --> 01:11:24,240
Speaker 2: know when we left, when the US left Afghanistan, there

1166
01:11:24,240 --> 01:11:28,839
Speaker 2: are eight million kids in school, half male and half female.

1167
01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:31,599
Speaker 2: Now all the females kicked out after grade school. To say, boy,

1168
01:11:31,680 --> 01:11:34,840
Speaker 2: that is not a step ahead. Uh So, so we

1169
01:11:34,880 --> 01:11:36,760
Speaker 2: ought to look at the cost and the benefit of

1170
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:37,400
Speaker 2: that withdrawal.

1171
01:11:37,479 --> 01:11:39,240
Speaker 1: Don't just say isn't this great?

1172
01:11:39,280 --> 01:11:43,439
Speaker 2: Because we really empowered the Taliban and we really hurt

1173
01:11:43,479 --> 01:11:44,800
Speaker 2: a lot of people in Afghanistan.

1174
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:48,799
Speaker 1: We were trying to help. Looking back when you were writing,

1175
01:11:48,880 --> 01:11:54,360
Speaker 1: you know, look, every author is you can't help but

1176
01:11:54,400 --> 01:11:57,719
Speaker 1: be influenced by your by the experience in the moment

1177
01:11:57,920 --> 01:12:00,880
Speaker 1: that you're having in a political Marber, right, So you

1178
01:12:00,920 --> 01:12:05,400
Speaker 1: know there's a and I'm curious, you know there's there's

1179
01:12:05,439 --> 01:12:09,000
Speaker 1: been I think there's a debate in conservative circles about

1180
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:12,800
Speaker 1: whether Trump is an heir to the Reagan lineage or not.

1181
01:12:13,439 --> 01:12:14,479
Speaker 1: What's say you on that?

1182
01:12:15,720 --> 01:12:18,360
Speaker 2: I think there's significant differences. There are few similarities.

1183
01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:21,320
Speaker 1: I think both Trump and Reagan are sensitive to the

1184
01:12:21,360 --> 01:12:24,680
Speaker 1: size of the budget, and so smaller government is more

1185
01:12:24,680 --> 01:12:27,599
Speaker 1: helpful than that. Now, really you think Trump cares about

1186
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:30,760
Speaker 1: the size of government, I don't. I really, I think

1187
01:12:30,760 --> 01:12:34,080
Speaker 1: he cares about strong government. That's an interesting I don't

1188
01:12:34,080 --> 01:12:36,360
Speaker 1: know if I buy that, I think, But Okay, I

1189
01:12:36,960 --> 01:12:38,080
Speaker 1: asked the question. I was thinking.

1190
01:12:38,120 --> 01:12:40,679
Speaker 2: I think there are similarities, but the differences are huge

1191
01:12:40,720 --> 01:12:45,040
Speaker 2: because back to that international leadership. Trump Reagan believed in

1192
01:12:45,120 --> 01:12:49,639
Speaker 2: international leadership. Reagan believed the US security, US well being

1193
01:12:50,040 --> 01:12:54,920
Speaker 2: is improved by having friends, having allies, having working relationships.

1194
01:12:56,200 --> 01:12:58,479
Speaker 2: Every ally and every friend is going to give in

1195
01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:01,519
Speaker 2: a different amount in someone perform, So there's always that

1196
01:13:01,560 --> 01:13:03,800
Speaker 2: burden sharing issue. But boy, you how many friends do

1197
01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:05,519
Speaker 2: you want? As many as you can get with sort

1198
01:13:05,520 --> 01:13:10,720
Speaker 2: of Reagan's view. Also on trade, Reagan was a free

1199
01:13:10,720 --> 01:13:13,639
Speaker 2: market guy. Reagan said, whatever we can do to allow

1200
01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:16,960
Speaker 2: for prosperity, allow for economic growth, allow for people to

1201
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:20,760
Speaker 2: get hired businesses to grow. That's good. That's good, and

1202
01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:24,440
Speaker 2: the international dimension of that is very healthy for America,

1203
01:13:25,080 --> 01:13:27,800
Speaker 2: and it has security dimensions as well. And Trump is

1204
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:29,479
Speaker 2: just very mixed on that to say, I want to

1205
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:31,800
Speaker 2: take shares I US government want to take shares of

1206
01:13:31,880 --> 01:13:34,479
Speaker 2: private companies. I want to grab revenue for private companies.

1207
01:13:34,720 --> 01:13:39,479
Speaker 2: And his view of trade is just puzzling about trade

1208
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:43,360
Speaker 2: is fundamentally deleterious. Trade is fundamentally harmful to the United States.

1209
01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:45,840
Speaker 2: So I'm going to put a terrify on everybody. It's

1210
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:47,920
Speaker 2: almost todd I look at that, and it's almost a

1211
01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:53,479
Speaker 2: Marxist critique of capitalism. Every single person has is bad faith.

1212
01:13:53,600 --> 01:13:56,280
Speaker 2: Every single transaction is somebody's trying to hurt you. There's

1213
01:13:56,320 --> 01:13:58,559
Speaker 2: nobody out there just selling us something that actually might

1214
01:13:58,560 --> 01:13:59,360
Speaker 2: help our economy.

1215
01:13:59,680 --> 01:14:00,920
Speaker 1: Every Body should be terrifed.

1216
01:14:00,960 --> 01:14:04,120
Speaker 2: Everybody is sinister, everybody is harmful, and we need to

1217
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:06,760
Speaker 2: push back against the world. Is a very odd way

1218
01:14:06,760 --> 01:14:07,679
Speaker 2: to go through life.

1219
01:14:07,960 --> 01:14:11,160
Speaker 1: Well, this is what concerns me the most, is like,

1220
01:14:11,960 --> 01:14:15,840
Speaker 1: when we decide we're going to be whatever benefits us

1221
01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:18,479
Speaker 1: and we don't care about the benefits to anybody else, Well,

1222
01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:21,519
Speaker 1: it's only going to encourage everybody else to think that way. Yeah,

1223
01:14:21,560 --> 01:14:24,200
Speaker 1: and by the way, I think even that premise mistakes

1224
01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:27,960
Speaker 1: things because he's when Canada sells us in expensive aluminum

1225
01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:31,760
Speaker 1: that helps us, that not creates more jobs. So it's

1226
01:14:31,760 --> 01:14:34,920
Speaker 1: not China's. Canada is not tricking us. They're not cheating us,

1227
01:14:34,960 --> 01:14:37,559
Speaker 1: they're not lying to us. They're helping our economy.

1228
01:14:37,680 --> 01:14:41,040
Speaker 2: Something like six times as many people work in aluminum

1229
01:14:41,080 --> 01:14:44,800
Speaker 2: fabrication and use aluminum that manufacture illuminum. So they're giving

1230
01:14:44,840 --> 01:14:48,720
Speaker 2: us inexpensive luminum. We we're creating jobs here. So so

1231
01:14:49,200 --> 01:14:51,160
Speaker 2: the premise of saying this guy's are hurting us or

1232
01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:55,040
Speaker 2: cheating us by selling us inexpensive is a faulty premise.

1233
01:14:56,400 --> 01:15:00,000
Speaker 1: So talk about your how did you were a pretty

1234
01:15:00,080 --> 01:15:04,160
Speaker 1: young staffer? You're not, You're not You're you're you know,

1235
01:15:04,439 --> 01:15:07,000
Speaker 1: most Reagan era folks have a lot more gray than

1236
01:15:07,040 --> 01:15:08,880
Speaker 1: you do. Although you've got the nice beard you know

1237
01:15:09,040 --> 01:15:10,880
Speaker 1: going on there, Like I said, you got your Civil

1238
01:15:10,880 --> 01:15:13,479
Speaker 1: War beard going on. You know Garfield here in Ohio

1239
01:15:13,520 --> 01:15:19,960
Speaker 1: and you know a little James Garfield there what you know.

1240
01:15:20,439 --> 01:15:22,040
Speaker 1: But I've always said a white house is a young

1241
01:15:22,080 --> 01:15:25,799
Speaker 1: person's is a young person's game, like it's your twenties

1242
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:28,400
Speaker 1: and thirties. You know, once you're in your forties or fifties,

1243
01:15:28,479 --> 01:15:31,800
Speaker 1: you don't have the stamina I think to do it.

1244
01:15:32,080 --> 01:15:34,439
Speaker 1: So what was the you know, how often would you

1245
01:15:34,520 --> 01:15:38,120
Speaker 1: get time with Reagan? And you know how often did

1246
01:15:38,160 --> 01:15:39,680
Speaker 1: you get to be the staffers to show up in

1247
01:15:39,720 --> 01:15:40,040
Speaker 1: a room.

1248
01:15:40,200 --> 01:15:43,120
Speaker 2: I can't answer that, at least partially with a pretty

1249
01:15:43,120 --> 01:15:46,479
Speaker 2: exact number, because I was in the NSC when I

1250
01:15:46,560 --> 01:15:49,439
Speaker 2: ran Contra Brogue and we had a number of the

1251
01:15:49,600 --> 01:15:53,360
Speaker 2: post scandal sort of investigations, the Tower Commission, and there

1252
01:15:53,400 --> 01:15:55,160
Speaker 2: was an FBI investment. There were at least and then

1253
01:15:55,200 --> 01:15:59,240
Speaker 2: the US senated some at least three sort of formal

1254
01:16:00,280 --> 01:16:03,120
Speaker 2: examinations about what was going on that year. And we literally,

1255
01:16:03,160 --> 01:16:05,800
Speaker 2: as an NSC staffer, we had to go in tallly,

1256
01:16:05,880 --> 01:16:08,680
Speaker 2: so you must tally and delineate every single meeting you

1257
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:11,479
Speaker 2: had with Ronald Reagan in nineteen eighty six, I had

1258
01:16:11,560 --> 01:16:12,880
Speaker 2: like one hundred and fifty.

1259
01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:16,240
Speaker 1: Five meeting, So this is based like like you had

1260
01:16:16,280 --> 01:16:18,160
Speaker 1: to literally I had to go.

1261
01:16:18,200 --> 01:16:20,120
Speaker 2: I spent like a day and a half going through

1262
01:16:20,120 --> 01:16:22,599
Speaker 2: my calendar. Right this is before we had online stuff.

1263
01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:23,719
Speaker 2: I had like write all this stuff.

1264
01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:25,920
Speaker 1: Then are you're submitting it to I think to the FBI,

1265
01:16:26,000 --> 01:16:28,679
Speaker 1: but you're submitting it for testimony, so it's a legal document.

1266
01:16:28,880 --> 01:16:31,000
Speaker 1: You better check your facts and make sure it's correct.

1267
01:16:31,120 --> 01:16:32,160
Speaker 1: So I spent a lot.

1268
01:16:31,960 --> 01:16:34,080
Speaker 2: Of time with Reagan and the NFC. I was in

1269
01:16:34,120 --> 01:16:35,880
Speaker 2: the political office than after. I was director of the

1270
01:16:35,920 --> 01:16:40,719
Speaker 2: political office for the eighty seven eighty eight cycle vice

1271
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:45,160
Speaker 2: President George Bush against Governor Michael Ducaucas and I.

1272
01:16:44,800 --> 01:16:47,439
Speaker 1: Was doing more. But unless I would maybe.

1273
01:16:47,200 --> 01:16:49,040
Speaker 2: See Reagan once a week or twice a week, it

1274
01:16:49,160 --> 01:16:52,080
Speaker 2: was a lot less frequency in the political cause you

1275
01:16:52,120 --> 01:16:53,919
Speaker 2: were kind of much more outward facing.

1276
01:16:54,120 --> 01:16:57,280
Speaker 1: The NSC was kind of more inward management. You didn't

1277
01:16:57,680 --> 01:17:02,040
Speaker 1: did You didn't chalk up the less frequency to them

1278
01:17:02,080 --> 01:17:04,960
Speaker 1: sheltering him a little bit more Duberstein and Baker.

1279
01:17:05,360 --> 01:17:08,120
Speaker 2: No, I saw him a lot. Look, I was part

1280
01:17:08,160 --> 01:17:11,480
Speaker 2: of the family. So it wasn't like I was going to.

1281
01:17:10,880 --> 01:17:13,160
Speaker 1: Repel it, right, No, I know that, but like just

1282
01:17:13,240 --> 01:17:15,719
Speaker 1: if they were just being protective of him just generally.

1283
01:17:16,680 --> 01:17:19,400
Speaker 2: No, there was that there was you know, the biggest

1284
01:17:19,439 --> 01:17:22,080
Speaker 2: time I saw that close to that was we had

1285
01:17:22,200 --> 01:17:25,479
Speaker 2: Ah there was a tumor found I think in his

1286
01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:28,240
Speaker 2: lower intestine. After the eighty six election, and it was

1287
01:17:28,280 --> 01:17:30,639
Speaker 2: about a two month recovery, and there was definitely a

1288
01:17:30,840 --> 01:17:34,720
Speaker 2: very managed schedule that he just had less stamina for

1289
01:17:34,760 --> 01:17:36,479
Speaker 2: those two months. But he was back in the game.

1290
01:17:36,520 --> 01:17:39,400
Speaker 2: And I'll tell you we saw this dramatically in eighty seven.

1291
01:17:39,760 --> 01:17:42,080
Speaker 2: The final four months of eighty seven, he was out

1292
01:17:42,120 --> 01:17:43,200
Speaker 2: there campaigning for Bush.

1293
01:17:43,479 --> 01:17:44,599
Speaker 1: He wanted Bush to win.

1294
01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:49,200
Speaker 2: He told me, I'm governor of California for eight years,

1295
01:17:49,600 --> 01:17:51,479
Speaker 2: and we think we're moving to state the right way.

1296
01:17:51,640 --> 01:17:53,920
Speaker 2: And as soon as I leave office, Jerry Brown comes

1297
01:17:53,920 --> 01:17:56,840
Speaker 2: in and unwinds everything I've done, and I do not

1298
01:17:57,000 --> 01:17:59,320
Speaker 2: want to have Michael Ducaucus come in and unwind everything

1299
01:17:59,360 --> 01:18:02,479
Speaker 2: we've done. We've got to make sure that George Bush

1300
01:18:02,520 --> 01:18:05,839
Speaker 2: gets in there. So he was really committed, really excited

1301
01:18:05,880 --> 01:18:07,120
Speaker 2: and hardworking on that race.

1302
01:18:10,240 --> 01:18:11,960
Speaker 1: I kind of ask you, what was your reaction when

1303
01:18:11,960 --> 01:18:14,920
Speaker 1: you saw the news that Oliver North and fun Hall married. Yeah,

1304
01:18:14,920 --> 01:18:15,559
Speaker 1: that was amazing.

1305
01:18:15,600 --> 01:18:18,160
Speaker 2: I knew Ali and Fawn pretty well.

1306
01:18:19,560 --> 01:18:22,640
Speaker 1: I mean, that must be tough on those that family, right,

1307
01:18:22,680 --> 01:18:26,240
Speaker 1: They've probably been They've probably been dealing with whispers for years, decades,

1308
01:18:26,400 --> 01:18:28,320
Speaker 1: and then you're like, gee, thanks, dad.

1309
01:18:28,680 --> 01:18:32,000
Speaker 2: It's a bit of a jaw dropper. But let me

1310
01:18:32,040 --> 01:18:35,040
Speaker 2: say this, I don't want to intimate anything inappropriate because

1311
01:18:35,720 --> 01:18:39,160
Speaker 2: we don't know have chemistry. Certain people have chemistry and

1312
01:18:39,200 --> 01:18:42,879
Speaker 2: a bond that is not involve intimacy, that there's.

1313
01:18:42,720 --> 01:18:43,799
Speaker 1: Some special moment.

1314
01:18:43,960 --> 01:18:46,120
Speaker 2: Both of them are in the foxhole together, both of

1315
01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:47,840
Speaker 2: them are taking in coming in from Both of them

1316
01:18:47,880 --> 01:18:52,360
Speaker 2: have legal exposure and possible time. So if you've gone

1317
01:18:52,360 --> 01:18:56,519
Speaker 2: through that type of trauma, there's a bond. There's a bond,

1318
01:18:56,560 --> 01:18:58,760
Speaker 2: So I wouldn't necessarily assume anything beyond that.

1319
01:18:58,800 --> 01:19:00,840
Speaker 1: Are enough, fair enough, But that was one of those

1320
01:19:00,880 --> 01:19:02,800
Speaker 1: you're like, wow, it's a jaw dropper. It is a

1321
01:19:02,880 --> 01:19:03,519
Speaker 1: jaw dropper.

1322
01:19:04,080 --> 01:19:06,280
Speaker 2: So well, all we can do is wish him happiness.

1323
01:19:06,320 --> 01:19:11,960
Speaker 2: And you know, Fawn's husband who passed away was the

1324
01:19:12,080 --> 01:19:14,280
Speaker 2: road manager or the general manager for the Doors, the

1325
01:19:14,360 --> 01:19:17,280
Speaker 2: rock group, no kidding, so she didn't involved in Hollywood

1326
01:19:17,320 --> 01:19:22,080
Speaker 2: and rock music and uh and another interesting aspect of

1327
01:19:22,160 --> 01:19:23,920
Speaker 2: this that isn't why they aboard it is And I

1328
01:19:24,560 --> 01:19:26,800
Speaker 2: worked with her, I knew her more than I knew Fawn.

1329
01:19:27,040 --> 01:19:31,680
Speaker 2: Fawn's mother, Wilma, worked at the NSC. It was an

1330
01:19:31,680 --> 01:19:34,080
Speaker 2: odd it's odd to have sort of a multi generational,

1331
01:19:34,439 --> 01:19:35,719
Speaker 2: but they worked there at the same time.

1332
01:19:35,920 --> 01:19:36,479
Speaker 1: But Wilma.

1333
01:19:36,600 --> 01:19:39,120
Speaker 2: But I knew Wilma and worked with Wilma more than

1334
01:19:39,160 --> 01:19:41,320
Speaker 2: I knew Fawn. I knew the mom more than the daughter.

1335
01:19:41,439 --> 01:19:43,719
Speaker 2: She was great. Wilma was great. Realma was really good,

1336
01:19:43,960 --> 01:19:47,840
Speaker 2: really professional. Worked for the Nationalscrety advisor for Coindexter than

1337
01:19:47,840 --> 01:19:50,759
Speaker 2: coin Piles, who worked in a very senior spots, uh

1338
01:19:50,800 --> 01:19:52,560
Speaker 2: and was a top notch professional.

1339
01:19:52,920 --> 01:19:55,960
Speaker 1: What do you make of the of of what's happened

1340
01:19:55,960 --> 01:19:59,040
Speaker 1: with the NSC and that it's sort of lumped in

1341
01:19:59,080 --> 01:20:02,599
Speaker 1: with that Rubyo you he's pulling the Kissinger overseeing both

1342
01:20:03,520 --> 01:20:09,240
Speaker 1: and you know, based on your experience, what how's how

1343
01:20:09,240 --> 01:20:11,760
Speaker 1: does that work? And is it? Is it? Do you

1344
01:20:11,800 --> 01:20:13,680
Speaker 1: think it's probably is more problematic.

1345
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:17,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, but my starting point is Trump is not foreign

1346
01:20:17,320 --> 01:20:21,120
Speaker 2: policy oriented, Okay. Trump is a transactional guy, not sort

1347
01:20:21,120 --> 01:20:25,400
Speaker 2: of an abstract person. Trump doesn't necessarily care if there's

1348
01:20:25,439 --> 01:20:29,599
Speaker 2: a geopolitical challenge in the United States or something's decuriating someplace.

1349
01:20:29,800 --> 01:20:32,240
Speaker 2: I mean that's Ukraine or probably done on that's not

1350
01:20:32,360 --> 01:20:35,639
Speaker 2: top of mine. He has not said anything negative about

1351
01:20:35,680 --> 01:20:38,639
Speaker 2: Putin since he's been president. He's not said anything wrongly

1352
01:20:38,720 --> 01:20:41,599
Speaker 2: negative about she she didn't ping accept trade issues.

1353
01:20:41,800 --> 01:20:43,800
Speaker 1: Trade issues are the one sort of legitimate area he

1354
01:20:43,800 --> 01:20:46,840
Speaker 1: can always my friend, you know. Yeah.

1355
01:20:46,960 --> 01:20:49,479
Speaker 2: So so the point is, though, my starting point is, look,

1356
01:20:49,520 --> 01:20:54,080
Speaker 2: this guy is not organized around what is America's role

1357
01:20:54,120 --> 01:20:56,559
Speaker 2: in the world, and how do we push back against

1358
01:20:56,680 --> 01:20:59,439
Speaker 2: challenges and threats and how do we enhance our friendship

1359
01:20:59,479 --> 01:21:01,920
Speaker 2: and cultivate good relations with like minded nations the way

1360
01:21:01,960 --> 01:21:06,479
Speaker 2: most presidents would look at diplomacy or international relations.

1361
01:21:06,520 --> 01:21:07,760
Speaker 1: So I think I.

1362
01:21:07,680 --> 01:21:10,160
Speaker 2: Think what he's really saying giving Rubio this extra job

1363
01:21:10,560 --> 01:21:12,840
Speaker 2: is that it's it's just sort of a processing it's

1364
01:21:12,880 --> 01:21:16,120
Speaker 2: a clerical unit. Somebody calls up, somebody needs to respond

1365
01:21:16,120 --> 01:21:18,439
Speaker 2: to the phone call. It's kind of nineteenth century foreign policy.

1366
01:21:18,479 --> 01:21:21,080
Speaker 2: We didn't really have a foreign policy. But if the

1367
01:21:21,200 --> 01:21:23,760
Speaker 2: Argentine foreign minister calls up, somebody's got to return the

1368
01:21:23,800 --> 01:21:26,360
Speaker 2: phone call. So it's a kind of a clerical exercise

1369
01:21:26,400 --> 01:21:28,919
Speaker 2: without any ultimate goal in mind.

1370
01:21:29,080 --> 01:21:33,439
Speaker 1: So give me what the ideal distinctions between the National

1371
01:21:33,439 --> 01:21:37,320
Speaker 1: Security Council and the State Department were during your days,

1372
01:21:37,360 --> 01:21:38,840
Speaker 1: and your mind should.

1373
01:21:38,520 --> 01:21:42,760
Speaker 2: Be, well, the NSC works personally for the president as

1374
01:21:42,760 --> 01:21:45,840
Speaker 2: his advisor, so it's not responsible for broad US foreign

1375
01:21:45,840 --> 01:21:48,960
Speaker 2: policy concerns. But what does the president do? So, for example,

1376
01:21:49,000 --> 01:21:52,120
Speaker 2: my job was presidential meetings and functions outbound and inbound,

1377
01:21:52,160 --> 01:21:55,559
Speaker 2: meaning who should the president receive in the overall office

1378
01:21:55,560 --> 01:21:56,120
Speaker 2: and meet with him?

1379
01:21:56,200 --> 01:21:56,679
Speaker 1: What purpose?

1380
01:21:56,760 --> 01:21:58,720
Speaker 2: So if the Japanese Prime Minister is coming here in

1381
01:21:58,720 --> 01:22:01,800
Speaker 2: two months, what is supposed to happen when he meets

1382
01:22:01,880 --> 01:22:02,320
Speaker 2: the president?

1383
01:22:02,400 --> 01:22:04,200
Speaker 1: What accomplishment we want? What is our goal?

1384
01:22:04,439 --> 01:22:05,800
Speaker 2: What problem do we want solved?

1385
01:22:05,840 --> 01:22:07,200
Speaker 1: You are a part of this. I always try to

1386
01:22:07,200 --> 01:22:09,600
Speaker 1: tell people a lot of things are pre cooked. You were,

1387
01:22:09,800 --> 01:22:12,080
Speaker 1: You were one of those prep chefs, right, yeah, yeah.

1388
01:22:12,120 --> 01:22:14,280
Speaker 2: But also that's the whole point of the meeting is

1389
01:22:14,320 --> 01:22:16,240
Speaker 2: to declare victory and say we solved. And the whole

1390
01:22:16,280 --> 01:22:18,280
Speaker 2: point is now we can talk to the Japanese Foreign

1391
01:22:18,280 --> 01:22:21,400
Speaker 2: Ministry and we can tell them my friend your boss

1392
01:22:21,479 --> 01:22:24,439
Speaker 2: is coming to see us in two months. Do we

1393
01:22:24,479 --> 01:22:25,960
Speaker 2: want to say it was a great meeting. Do we

1394
01:22:25,960 --> 01:22:27,920
Speaker 2: want to say we missed the boat? Let's work for

1395
01:22:27,920 --> 01:22:29,559
Speaker 2: a great meeting, and here are the three or four

1396
01:22:29,600 --> 01:22:31,240
Speaker 2: things we think need to happen. By the way, they've

1397
01:22:31,240 --> 01:22:33,759
Speaker 2: got three or four things as well. But it's basically

1398
01:22:33,840 --> 01:22:35,920
Speaker 2: a positive relationship. So we ought to be able to

1399
01:22:36,040 --> 01:22:37,120
Speaker 2: work through most or all.

1400
01:22:37,120 --> 01:22:39,439
Speaker 1: And it's your job to know what they want to

1401
01:22:39,960 --> 01:22:42,360
Speaker 1: and you are to convey that you're at meeting with them.

1402
01:22:42,360 --> 01:22:45,320
Speaker 2: You're a literally meeting a regular and even mechanical aspects.

1403
01:22:45,320 --> 01:22:47,320
Speaker 2: Are they having lunch or is it a state dinner?

1404
01:22:47,479 --> 01:22:49,479
Speaker 2: Are there other cities the Prime Minister is going to.

1405
01:22:49,760 --> 01:22:52,840
Speaker 2: Is the Prime minister's spouse accompanying him? And is that

1406
01:22:52,880 --> 01:22:55,559
Speaker 2: person also making speeches? Are involved with the charity. So

1407
01:22:55,680 --> 01:22:58,160
Speaker 2: let's understand everything that's going on. Let's make this as

1408
01:22:58,160 --> 01:23:00,840
Speaker 2: successful as possible, and let's solve the two or three

1409
01:23:00,880 --> 01:23:03,200
Speaker 2: big problems we've got. Let's use this meeting. It's not

1410
01:23:03,240 --> 01:23:06,439
Speaker 2: a ceremonial meeting. It's to try to move our agenda ahead.

1411
01:23:07,080 --> 01:23:09,960
Speaker 1: So in some way, if Trump doesn't really care about

1412
01:23:09,960 --> 01:23:13,040
Speaker 1: foreign policy in the way that frankly most other presidents

1413
01:23:13,040 --> 01:23:16,280
Speaker 1: of our of our lifetime have, then you might as

1414
01:23:16,320 --> 01:23:19,000
Speaker 1: well organize it this way. Fine, might as well.

1415
01:23:19,320 --> 01:23:21,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think what he is very sensitive to

1416
01:23:22,080 --> 01:23:25,040
Speaker 2: is simply how he's treated and is their respect or

1417
01:23:25,080 --> 01:23:29,120
Speaker 2: deference given. And if he is treated with deference, then

1418
01:23:29,200 --> 01:23:31,759
Speaker 2: that's it's almost like medieval Europe, you know, it's almost

1419
01:23:31,760 --> 01:23:34,400
Speaker 2: like a medieval court where I don't care who you are,

1420
01:23:34,400 --> 01:23:36,479
Speaker 2: I don't care what you stand for. But as long

1421
01:23:36,520 --> 01:23:38,919
Speaker 2: as you bow before the king and say your majesty,

1422
01:23:38,920 --> 01:23:41,040
Speaker 2: you're looking pretty good. You ought to have a few

1423
01:23:41,080 --> 01:23:44,599
Speaker 2: Nobel prizes. As long as you say that you're you're

1424
01:23:44,640 --> 01:23:45,840
Speaker 2: a friend, you're a good fellow.

1425
01:23:45,880 --> 01:23:48,160
Speaker 1: And if you say you know, mister president, I think

1426
01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:50,720
Speaker 1: you're going the wrong way, which Angela Merkel might have said,

1427
01:23:50,760 --> 01:23:53,320
Speaker 1: or Emanuel mccron might have said, you are a troublemaker

1428
01:23:53,600 --> 01:23:59,680
Speaker 1: and you're showing disrespect. You're a history junkie. Do you

1429
01:24:00,280 --> 01:24:03,600
Speaker 1: do you accept the premise that this this wing of

1430
01:24:03,640 --> 01:24:06,760
Speaker 1: the Republican Party that's now in charge, goes back to

1431
01:24:06,800 --> 01:24:09,880
Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties and thirties, that that's what we're that

1432
01:24:09,880 --> 01:24:15,519
Speaker 1: that there's always been this sort of isolationist wing, you know,

1433
01:24:15,600 --> 01:24:18,559
Speaker 1: sort of a protectionist wing, you know, sort of however

1434
01:24:18,600 --> 01:24:22,240
Speaker 1: you want to describe it, you know, because do you

1435
01:24:22,280 --> 01:24:24,080
Speaker 1: do you do you think that's a fair comparison.

1436
01:24:24,920 --> 01:24:27,040
Speaker 2: I think it's hard to draw straight linear I think

1437
01:24:27,040 --> 01:24:30,719
Speaker 2: you'd say these tendencies have existed in US politics. For member,

1438
01:24:31,040 --> 01:24:35,479
Speaker 2: there's always been something that's more nationalists, something that's more.

1439
01:24:35,520 --> 01:24:38,800
Speaker 1: And sometimes this rises up on any country, including ours.

1440
01:24:38,800 --> 01:24:42,400
Speaker 1: Sometimes the nationalistic view is left wing, sometimes it's right wing.

1441
01:24:42,960 --> 01:24:46,240
Speaker 1: And it always creeps into two things. One is anti

1442
01:24:46,280 --> 01:24:49,760
Speaker 1: sebbotism and the other is no matter which which way

1443
01:24:49,800 --> 01:24:51,960
Speaker 1: it goes, is anti sebbotism. And then it becomes a

1444
01:24:51,960 --> 01:24:54,840
Speaker 1: bit more authoritarian.

1445
01:24:54,320 --> 01:24:56,240
Speaker 2: If you're not careful. And in the modern era, the

1446
01:24:56,280 --> 01:24:58,760
Speaker 2: more protectionist party. We're always the Democrats. They have the

1447
01:24:58,840 --> 01:25:00,599
Speaker 2: union days, they always the lesson.

1448
01:25:00,600 --> 01:25:06,840
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm my entire twentieth century brain has been imploded. Right,

1449
01:25:06,880 --> 01:25:09,200
Speaker 1: you know, you have the Democrats of the free traders

1450
01:25:09,200 --> 01:25:11,519
Speaker 1: of the You're like, what wrap his dad left is? Right?

1451
01:25:11,640 --> 01:25:12,920
Speaker 1: Cats and dogs living together.

1452
01:25:12,960 --> 01:25:15,000
Speaker 2: But there's a little bit of a conundrum for the

1453
01:25:15,000 --> 01:25:17,040
Speaker 2: Dems in twenty eight because on the one hand they

1454
01:25:17,040 --> 01:25:19,040
Speaker 2: want to be anti Trump and say Trump is really

1455
01:25:19,120 --> 01:25:20,800
Speaker 2: taking us the wrong way, which I believe is a

1456
01:25:20,800 --> 01:25:23,639
Speaker 2: fair hit. But on the other hand they'll have unions

1457
01:25:23,640 --> 01:25:26,000
Speaker 2: and other interest groups and say, well, for God's sakes,

1458
01:25:26,000 --> 01:25:28,160
Speaker 2: don't unwind what he did. For God's sakes, keep it

1459
01:25:28,200 --> 01:25:30,280
Speaker 2: in place. Well, let's go back to your home state.

1460
01:25:30,400 --> 01:25:33,439
Speaker 2: Like I think shared Brown is a flawed messenger for

1461
01:25:33,479 --> 01:25:37,160
Speaker 2: what the Democrats might need in twenty twenty six, because

1462
01:25:37,680 --> 01:25:39,640
Speaker 2: there are some of these tariffs hees in favor of.

1463
01:25:39,680 --> 01:25:42,120
Speaker 2: And yet you know, I think this is this is

1464
01:25:43,240 --> 01:25:48,400
Speaker 2: you know that the most vulnerable part of what's happening

1465
01:25:48,439 --> 01:25:50,800
Speaker 2: is on the economy and tariffs, and you know the

1466
01:25:50,880 --> 01:25:53,879
Speaker 2: cost increase on prescription drugs and on a cup of coffee,

1467
01:25:53,880 --> 01:25:56,599
Speaker 2: and you know all these things. Right, is he going

1468
01:25:56,640 --> 01:25:58,160
Speaker 2: to be the best messenger for that?

1469
01:25:58,880 --> 01:26:00,960
Speaker 1: Look he is, by the way, he is a bright guy.

1470
01:26:01,080 --> 01:26:02,240
Speaker 1: He's a sure guy.

1471
01:26:02,400 --> 01:26:06,280
Speaker 2: Oh, nothing personally objectionable about him. But boy, he is old.

1472
01:26:06,720 --> 01:26:09,519
Speaker 2: And I don't mean just chronologically aged, but I also

1473
01:26:09,560 --> 01:26:10,080
Speaker 2: mean he is.

1474
01:26:10,320 --> 01:26:12,120
Speaker 1: Just from an older era of politics.

1475
01:26:12,240 --> 01:26:15,679
Speaker 2: I'll bet you there's nobody in the Senate today who's

1476
01:26:15,720 --> 01:26:19,000
Speaker 2: run for public office more time, not even Chuck Schumer

1477
01:26:19,240 --> 01:26:20,639
Speaker 2: more times than Shared Brown.

1478
01:26:21,040 --> 01:26:23,000
Speaker 1: Well, the only other person that comes close is the

1479
01:26:23,040 --> 01:26:26,679
Speaker 1: person he replaced in the Senate in Ohio, Mike Dwine.

1480
01:26:27,000 --> 01:26:29,400
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was run for state wide offices.

1481
01:26:29,400 --> 01:26:31,120
Speaker 1: Mike Dwight is Shared Brown, right, that's right.

1482
01:26:31,160 --> 01:26:33,920
Speaker 2: And each of them were in Congress, and Shared was

1483
01:26:33,960 --> 01:26:37,000
Speaker 2: state legislature did they both were ages?

1484
01:26:37,960 --> 01:26:40,200
Speaker 1: Shared was like state secretary of state at every right

1485
01:26:40,360 --> 01:26:43,240
Speaker 1: secreary state and Dwine was the ag I mean they

1486
01:26:43,320 --> 01:26:47,080
Speaker 1: both they both lost races, you know, multiple times. Right,

1487
01:26:47,120 --> 01:26:50,880
Speaker 1: they're they're not They're sort of they remind me of

1488
01:26:52,080 --> 01:26:55,599
Speaker 1: you know, the sort of the boxers that weren't Ali,

1489
01:26:56,040 --> 01:26:57,800
Speaker 1: right that every once in a while they get a belt,

1490
01:26:57,840 --> 01:26:59,840
Speaker 1: but they were always sort of like second, you know

1491
01:27:00,080 --> 01:27:02,040
Speaker 1: with the big guys Cable, Well.

1492
01:27:01,840 --> 01:27:04,240
Speaker 2: He has persistence. I mean, you have the right, but hey,

1493
01:27:04,280 --> 01:27:05,680
Speaker 2: this is you know.

1494
01:27:06,000 --> 01:27:09,040
Speaker 1: I think both of them that way. Yeah, Wine and Brown, Right, No,

1495
01:27:09,080 --> 01:27:10,920
Speaker 1: you're right, you're right. Uh uh.

1496
01:27:11,200 --> 01:27:13,479
Speaker 2: But I think I think though too relatively that might

1497
01:27:13,520 --> 01:27:14,519
Speaker 2: be a negative or a.

1498
01:27:14,520 --> 01:27:16,680
Speaker 1: Challenge for Shure. I think so too. How do I.

1499
01:27:16,640 --> 01:27:20,320
Speaker 2: Reinvent myself, reposition myself. I'm not the voice of the future,

1500
01:27:20,400 --> 01:27:23,000
Speaker 2: you know, and if my heart and soul was sort

1501
01:27:23,040 --> 01:27:27,000
Speaker 2: of the suburban left of center or the industrial workers,

1502
01:27:27,439 --> 01:27:32,760
Speaker 2: those are shrinker shifting constituencies. And I'll say any Democrat

1503
01:27:32,800 --> 01:27:34,479
Speaker 2: has to come to terms with some of the cultural

1504
01:27:34,520 --> 01:27:37,519
Speaker 2: issues that really sunk Biden. I mean, I would let

1505
01:27:37,520 --> 01:27:39,720
Speaker 2: me ask you this, how would you tell a Democratic

1506
01:27:39,760 --> 01:27:43,160
Speaker 2: presidential nomine twenty eight to talk about border controls? Should

1507
01:27:43,200 --> 01:27:45,840
Speaker 2: they say you know, Trump made a good point. Should

1508
01:27:45,840 --> 01:27:47,320
Speaker 2: they say, I h Trump, it's kind of your point

1509
01:27:47,360 --> 01:27:50,160
Speaker 2: on protectionism, but it's border. Don't they have to say

1510
01:27:50,479 --> 01:27:51,719
Speaker 2: we need border controls?

1511
01:28:03,000 --> 01:28:05,439
Speaker 1: Well, I think the issue that Democrats have and they

1512
01:28:05,479 --> 01:28:09,559
Speaker 1: don't fully understand with swing voters, is there's a lot

1513
01:28:09,600 --> 01:28:13,280
Speaker 1: of Trump's ideas are popular. The tactics are unpopular, right,

1514
01:28:13,520 --> 01:28:17,080
Speaker 1: like nobody nobody likes you know, you know, we want

1515
01:28:17,400 --> 01:28:21,080
Speaker 1: uh the border was chaotic, and we want immigration, right

1516
01:28:21,160 --> 01:28:23,439
Speaker 1: like you know, you know. The thing is is that

1517
01:28:23,439 --> 01:28:27,120
Speaker 1: that's America. Okay, we are we are always contradictory on that, sure,

1518
01:28:27,240 --> 01:28:29,880
Speaker 1: but we want both things. We want order, right, we

1519
01:28:29,920 --> 01:28:32,479
Speaker 1: do want law and order and we want freedoms and

1520
01:28:32,520 --> 01:28:33,240
Speaker 1: we want that. You know.

1521
01:28:33,680 --> 01:28:35,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I was gonna say, I think the voters

1522
01:28:35,720 --> 01:28:37,920
Speaker 2: will give you latitude on the second point as long

1523
01:28:37,960 --> 01:28:39,880
Speaker 2: as you pass a threshold on the first. On the

1524
01:28:39,920 --> 01:28:43,160
Speaker 2: first point, border controls, You've got to have credibility. You've

1525
01:28:43,160 --> 01:28:45,680
Speaker 2: got to say, every country in the world decides who

1526
01:28:45,680 --> 01:28:47,479
Speaker 2: gets in. Every country in the world has the right

1527
01:28:47,520 --> 01:28:49,880
Speaker 2: to control its borders, and I will do that as present.

1528
01:28:49,920 --> 01:28:52,639
Speaker 2: So you've got to say, plant that flag, own that issue.

1529
01:28:52,680 --> 01:28:54,760
Speaker 2: Don't let anybody beat you up on that. Once you

1530
01:28:54,880 --> 01:28:57,160
Speaker 2: say that, now you have flexibility to say, well, by

1531
01:28:57,160 --> 01:28:59,080
Speaker 2: the way, how many immigrants do we need anyhow or

1532
01:28:59,120 --> 01:29:02,120
Speaker 2: want anyhow? And what criteria is a fair question. But

1533
01:29:02,200 --> 01:29:04,519
Speaker 2: you only will listen to that second question if you

1534
01:29:04,560 --> 01:29:05,759
Speaker 2: win on that first question.

1535
01:29:06,000 --> 01:29:08,800
Speaker 1: I mean, it turns out those protests calling Obama to

1536
01:29:08,880 --> 01:29:12,320
Speaker 1: Porter in Chief at twenty twelve were probably gifts. It

1537
01:29:12,400 --> 01:29:17,800
Speaker 1: turns out those were political gifts because it told Middle America, oh, well,

1538
01:29:17,840 --> 01:29:21,000
Speaker 1: he must be doing something okay there whatever soldier kind

1539
01:29:21,000 --> 01:29:23,599
Speaker 1: of moment without him having to do it, right, They

1540
01:29:23,680 --> 01:29:25,519
Speaker 1: just sort of showed up and you know, I'm like,

1541
01:29:25,520 --> 01:29:27,040
Speaker 1: I'm going to listen to you. But you know.

1542
01:29:27,800 --> 01:29:31,680
Speaker 2: Obama had remained in Mexico, yes, right, which, by the way,

1543
01:29:31,800 --> 01:29:34,200
Speaker 2: stands to reason that you should not benefit from a

1544
01:29:34,200 --> 01:29:37,639
Speaker 2: government policy while you're waiting to be approved for that policy.

1545
01:29:37,720 --> 01:29:39,840
Speaker 1: So it stands to reason that you should.

1546
01:29:39,840 --> 01:29:42,439
Speaker 2: Not be invited into the country while your application is

1547
01:29:42,439 --> 01:29:43,560
Speaker 2: in process.

1548
01:29:43,560 --> 01:29:46,720
Speaker 1: The fact is, this is how the Canadians work, So

1549
01:29:47,400 --> 01:29:49,320
Speaker 1: you have to stay in America if you're trying to

1550
01:29:49,360 --> 01:29:52,799
Speaker 1: ask for asylum in the in the in Canada.

1551
01:29:53,200 --> 01:29:55,680
Speaker 2: A friend, a friend in Singapore told me, if you

1552
01:29:55,960 --> 01:29:58,320
Speaker 2: took every single proposal.

1553
01:29:58,439 --> 01:30:01,559
Speaker 1: Donald Trump on immigrationpped about him every single thing. He said.

1554
01:30:02,040 --> 01:30:05,559
Speaker 1: He would still be more liberal than any Asian country

1555
01:30:05,560 --> 01:30:08,400
Speaker 1: on immigration. Is the Japanese, the Korean, Singapore.

1556
01:30:08,640 --> 01:30:10,720
Speaker 2: All these guys said, Look, we do not want you

1557
01:30:10,760 --> 01:30:14,400
Speaker 2: here unless we say it's okay. So there's no illegal immigration,

1558
01:30:14,439 --> 01:30:18,040
Speaker 2: there's no certainly remaining, there's no catching release right. We

1559
01:30:18,120 --> 01:30:20,639
Speaker 2: are going to run a proper system and you only

1560
01:30:20,680 --> 01:30:22,519
Speaker 2: get in if we say you can get in.

1561
01:30:23,520 --> 01:30:26,120
Speaker 1: So to go back to our sort of this question

1562
01:30:26,200 --> 01:30:29,880
Speaker 1: I had about you know where where? Where is it?

1563
01:30:29,920 --> 01:30:33,479
Speaker 1: Is it the same family tree branch Reagan and Trump

1564
01:30:33,640 --> 01:30:36,040
Speaker 1: or not? Or is it a is it a different

1565
01:30:36,040 --> 01:30:36,920
Speaker 1: you know? Where does it differ?

1566
01:30:36,960 --> 01:30:38,480
Speaker 2: Where does it significant?

1567
01:30:38,600 --> 01:30:40,519
Speaker 1: And by the way, stylistic as well as substance.

1568
01:30:40,560 --> 01:30:42,880
Speaker 2: So Reagan believed in the national leadership, believed in trade,

1569
01:30:42,920 --> 01:30:46,960
Speaker 2: and stylistically he was an upbeat guy. Reagan was fundamentally

1570
01:30:47,000 --> 01:30:51,559
Speaker 2: arational message and Trump was fundamentally aggrievance message. Trump is saying,

1571
01:30:51,560 --> 01:30:53,599
Speaker 2: I want to tell you what's wrong, and there are

1572
01:30:53,680 --> 01:30:55,759
Speaker 2: bad people out there trying to hurt us, and Reagan

1573
01:30:55,840 --> 01:30:57,240
Speaker 2: is saying, I want to tell you what's right and

1574
01:30:57,240 --> 01:30:59,680
Speaker 2: how we can make this country a better place, so

1575
01:31:00,040 --> 01:31:01,280
Speaker 2: very very different psychology.

1576
01:31:01,280 --> 01:31:04,680
Speaker 1: I think between those two, what is conservatism today? Not?

1577
01:31:05,320 --> 01:31:10,080
Speaker 1: I guess what what is it to you? And you know,

1578
01:31:10,160 --> 01:31:13,200
Speaker 1: because just because Trump's for it to me doesn't make

1579
01:31:13,240 --> 01:31:17,519
Speaker 1: it conservative. And yet I watched the media now just

1580
01:31:17,680 --> 01:31:21,760
Speaker 1: lump whatever Trump's for, that's now what conservatism means. And yeah, look,

1581
01:31:21,800 --> 01:31:24,519
Speaker 1: the Heritage Foundation has really sort of warped my brain

1582
01:31:24,560 --> 01:31:28,000
Speaker 1: here because they're no longer ideological. They decided to go

1583
01:31:28,520 --> 01:31:32,280
Speaker 1: by AEI kept their ideological bona fides, Heritage did not.

1584
01:31:32,760 --> 01:31:35,160
Speaker 2: That's right, and Wall Street Journals with AI and National

1585
01:31:35,200 --> 01:31:37,920
Speaker 2: Reviews with it. So there are some traditional conservas to me,

1586
01:31:38,200 --> 01:31:41,320
Speaker 2: you know, philosophically means ordered liberty, that people have as

1587
01:31:41,360 --> 01:31:44,120
Speaker 2: much personal liberty to live life as they choose, as

1588
01:31:44,120 --> 01:31:46,120
Speaker 2: they see fit, but it has to take place within

1589
01:31:46,160 --> 01:31:48,799
Speaker 2: some kind of societal norm, some kind of legal structure.

1590
01:31:48,840 --> 01:31:51,960
Speaker 2: So it's not anarchy. It's not pure libertarianism. But if

1591
01:31:52,000 --> 01:31:54,479
Speaker 2: you you know, life liberty in the pursuit of happen

1592
01:31:54,560 --> 01:31:56,880
Speaker 2: is you get to live life on your terms as

1593
01:31:56,920 --> 01:31:59,320
Speaker 2: you see fit, as long as you're not hurting your neighbor.

1594
01:31:59,520 --> 01:32:03,000
Speaker 2: So that the fundamental philosophical point and that translates economically

1595
01:32:03,000 --> 01:32:04,160
Speaker 2: into market economics.

1596
01:32:04,479 --> 01:32:06,360
Speaker 1: If you want to start a restaurant, start a restaurant,

1597
01:32:06,400 --> 01:32:08,160
Speaker 1: you want to make shoes, go make shoes. You want

1598
01:32:08,200 --> 01:32:11,040
Speaker 1: to write computer code, God bless you do whatever you

1599
01:32:11,120 --> 01:32:12,800
Speaker 1: choose to do, and we hope you make money and

1600
01:32:12,840 --> 01:32:16,280
Speaker 1: prosper And that's how society moves ahead. We Couldmt. Romney

1601
01:32:16,320 --> 01:32:18,840
Speaker 1: and Paul Ryan have done differently to keep this wing

1602
01:32:18,880 --> 01:32:25,120
Speaker 1: of the party from essentially overwhelming what was the Eisenhower

1603
01:32:25,240 --> 01:32:30,160
Speaker 1: a Bush consensus of conservatism. Yeah, it's really striking to

1604
01:32:30,280 --> 01:32:35,040
Speaker 1: me that Trump was able to get control of the

1605
01:32:35,080 --> 01:32:40,759
Speaker 1: party so readily, so easily, and he is a terrific showman,

1606
01:32:40,840 --> 01:32:41,320
Speaker 1: so to speak.

1607
01:32:41,320 --> 01:32:43,599
Speaker 2: He's got a great stage presence, he's got the angriest

1608
01:32:43,640 --> 01:32:44,400
Speaker 2: message around.

1609
01:32:44,600 --> 01:32:44,960
Speaker 1: The boy.

1610
01:32:45,000 --> 01:32:48,040
Speaker 2: There was zero government track record, there was zero sort

1611
01:32:48,080 --> 01:32:50,599
Speaker 2: of success, and there was a personal life that was

1612
01:32:50,640 --> 01:32:54,000
Speaker 2: incredibly controversial. I mean, you say, nobody said I want

1613
01:32:54,000 --> 01:32:56,200
Speaker 2: my kid to be like Donald Trump. So I was

1614
01:32:56,240 --> 01:32:58,320
Speaker 2: just astonishing to me that he pulled this off. And

1615
01:32:58,360 --> 01:33:00,680
Speaker 2: I think he even surprised himself when he first ran.

1616
01:33:00,920 --> 01:33:02,280
Speaker 2: He said, I'm going to have some fun. I'll get

1617
01:33:02,320 --> 01:33:03,599
Speaker 2: on some debates, I'll yell at people.

1618
01:33:03,840 --> 01:33:05,880
Speaker 1: But I thought it was a business decision at first,

1619
01:33:05,880 --> 01:33:07,719
Speaker 1: and I think he thought it was a business decision

1620
01:33:07,760 --> 01:33:09,840
Speaker 1: at first.

1621
01:33:09,280 --> 01:33:12,640
Speaker 2: But look, I think that weirdness, if you will, and

1622
01:33:12,680 --> 01:33:15,360
Speaker 2: bed some good news, because the good news is our

1623
01:33:15,520 --> 01:33:18,920
Speaker 2: national political structures are plastic. They can be molded and

1624
01:33:18,960 --> 01:33:21,160
Speaker 2: shaped and deformed by anybody.

1625
01:33:21,200 --> 01:33:23,960
Speaker 1: So to somebody who says, well, Donald Trump's now sort

1626
01:33:24,000 --> 01:33:26,479
Speaker 1: of permanently shifted us politics, I don't think that's ever

1627
01:33:26,560 --> 01:33:29,760
Speaker 1: really true. God, it never is.

1628
01:33:30,040 --> 01:33:32,400
Speaker 2: The best guy in the room shifts it his way,

1629
01:33:32,680 --> 01:33:35,360
Speaker 2: and best I mean best in a political messaging sense

1630
01:33:35,400 --> 01:33:38,040
Speaker 2: of that word. So whoever the next best person is

1631
01:33:38,080 --> 01:33:40,600
Speaker 2: will move it his way, and I suspect there'll be

1632
01:33:40,640 --> 01:33:42,960
Speaker 2: a little bit of a pendulum swing back no matter

1633
01:33:43,000 --> 01:33:47,439
Speaker 2: how MAGA or anti maga. The next nominee is be

1634
01:33:47,479 --> 01:33:48,160
Speaker 2: Donald Trump.

1635
01:33:48,920 --> 01:33:51,200
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting I always said that you knew

1636
01:33:51,280 --> 01:33:55,000
Speaker 1: Reagan won the argument when Bill Clinton stood up at

1637
01:33:55,000 --> 01:33:56,640
Speaker 1: a State of the Union and said the era of

1638
01:33:56,640 --> 01:33:58,720
Speaker 1: big government as a yeah, yeah, you know, it's sort

1639
01:33:58,760 --> 01:34:01,040
Speaker 1: of like it took you know, here was this was

1640
01:34:02,240 --> 01:34:04,040
Speaker 1: it was I think the ninety five State of the

1641
01:34:04,080 --> 01:34:06,839
Speaker 1: Union he said this. So, so this is seven years

1642
01:34:06,920 --> 01:34:09,799
Speaker 1: after the Reagan presidency, right, and you're like, oh, Reagan

1643
01:34:09,840 --> 01:34:14,599
Speaker 1: won the argument, right, Like do you say the same

1644
01:34:14,720 --> 01:34:17,639
Speaker 1: with entitlements? Like when? Because I do. I've always said

1645
01:34:17,640 --> 01:34:22,439
Speaker 1: the magic potion of Trump, right, which was, I think

1646
01:34:22,479 --> 01:34:26,280
Speaker 1: he's got the presidency on culture, but in order to

1647
01:34:26,400 --> 01:34:29,600
Speaker 1: get there, he got there on entitlements. And it was

1648
01:34:29,640 --> 01:34:34,280
Speaker 1: sort of like, oh, Obama won the argument about government

1649
01:34:34,439 --> 01:34:40,200
Speaker 1: safety nets on healthcare, and that ultimately that's how Trump

1650
01:34:40,280 --> 01:34:42,400
Speaker 1: was able to get so many of those Obama voters

1651
01:34:43,000 --> 01:34:46,400
Speaker 1: from Iowa and Ohio. You mean by not taking that

1652
01:34:46,600 --> 01:34:49,800
Speaker 1: entitlements correct, right? Right? Yes, I think I think you're right.

1653
01:34:49,840 --> 01:34:50,200
Speaker 1: I don't think.

1654
01:34:50,400 --> 01:34:53,000
Speaker 2: I think he also said, look Reagan's space.

1655
01:34:53,200 --> 01:34:56,439
Speaker 1: Basically the era big government is back. Sorry, well, all

1656
01:34:56,479 --> 01:35:00,000
Speaker 1: that is feudal. It's feudal. That's a feudal government. Yes, fal,

1657
01:35:00,080 --> 01:35:02,400
Speaker 1: this goal cost benefit is way out of whack.

1658
01:35:02,560 --> 01:35:04,200
Speaker 2: And what do you do if you if you and

1659
01:35:04,240 --> 01:35:08,760
Speaker 2: I say, look, post office usage is declining every year

1660
01:35:08,800 --> 01:35:11,960
Speaker 2: for the last twenty years, email and other alternatives declining.

1661
01:35:12,520 --> 01:35:15,880
Speaker 2: Let's find the five percent of the post offices in

1662
01:35:15,920 --> 01:35:18,240
Speaker 2: America that are the least used, and let's good luck,

1663
01:35:18,800 --> 01:35:21,519
Speaker 2: good luck, good luck. You will spend five years trying

1664
01:35:21,520 --> 01:35:24,200
Speaker 2: to do that, you'll wind up closing six and you'll

1665
01:35:24,240 --> 01:35:25,639
Speaker 2: save one hundred thousand dollars.

1666
01:35:25,680 --> 01:35:29,519
Speaker 1: So any but the political cost of that was an.

1667
01:35:29,400 --> 01:35:33,080
Speaker 2: Extraordinary, extraordinary So so I would. I mean, there's an

1668
01:35:33,160 --> 01:35:36,360
Speaker 2: argument that Trump is saying, look, he understands cost benefit

1669
01:35:36,400 --> 01:35:38,240
Speaker 2: to say you're going to put your head against the wall.

1670
01:35:38,640 --> 01:35:40,840
Speaker 2: Even if everybody agrees, we just don't need that kind

1671
01:35:40,840 --> 01:35:44,679
Speaker 2: of post office density in America. You're you're a fool

1672
01:35:44,680 --> 01:35:45,799
Speaker 2: if you go down that path.

1673
01:35:45,840 --> 01:35:49,080
Speaker 1: So just leave it alone. Yeah, well, I still look

1674
01:35:49,120 --> 01:35:50,840
Speaker 1: at the post office, the fact that I can hand

1675
01:35:50,880 --> 01:35:52,840
Speaker 1: you a piece of paper and a dollar and say,

1676
01:35:52,880 --> 01:35:54,040
Speaker 1: can you take it across.

1677
01:35:53,760 --> 01:35:57,200
Speaker 2: Country in three days? Yeah, well we can do it.

1678
01:35:57,320 --> 01:35:59,080
Speaker 2: I can do it for a dollar less than that

1679
01:35:59,120 --> 01:36:01,960
Speaker 2: with emails my point. So I could save you a dollar.

1680
01:36:02,120 --> 01:36:04,760
Speaker 1: So but I can't send my product there?

1681
01:36:06,160 --> 01:36:08,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, fair enough. I Look, there's all I wasn't saying,

1682
01:36:08,400 --> 01:36:09,559
Speaker 2: destroy a blow post.

1683
01:36:09,760 --> 01:36:11,519
Speaker 1: No, no, no, adjust.

1684
01:36:11,680 --> 01:36:14,160
Speaker 2: You can adjust what the post office does, by the way.

1685
01:36:14,200 --> 01:36:15,880
Speaker 2: The way to do it, since around us the way

1686
01:36:15,920 --> 01:36:18,680
Speaker 2: to do it is simply to make pay the Americans,

1687
01:36:19,080 --> 01:36:21,920
Speaker 2: meaning don't go after a geographic locale and say we're

1688
01:36:21,960 --> 01:36:25,240
Speaker 2: going to Cincinnati, and we're gonnclosure, don't do that. But

1689
01:36:25,560 --> 01:36:28,160
Speaker 2: what we should say is, look, anybody who does not

1690
01:36:28,360 --> 01:36:32,000
Speaker 2: want postal delivery on Saturday and will agree for one

1691
01:36:32,080 --> 01:36:34,680
Speaker 2: year to forego that, we will give your household one

1692
01:36:34,720 --> 01:36:35,320
Speaker 2: hundred dollars.

1693
01:36:35,680 --> 01:36:38,599
Speaker 1: We will pay you because that financial incentive right now,

1694
01:36:38,720 --> 01:36:42,519
Speaker 1: to financial incentive and for economics, that sounds like a

1695
01:36:42,600 --> 01:36:43,920
Speaker 1: chapter out of freakonomics.

1696
01:36:44,400 --> 01:36:47,479
Speaker 2: And at the same time you tell every postal worker, yes,

1697
01:36:47,520 --> 01:36:50,679
Speaker 2: this will definitely decrease flow and decrease activity, but it'll

1698
01:36:50,720 --> 01:36:53,280
Speaker 2: decrease it, you know, two percent a year for viace.

1699
01:36:53,320 --> 01:36:55,679
Speaker 2: So we're not going to fire anybody or can guarantee

1700
01:36:55,720 --> 01:36:57,960
Speaker 2: you no, It's all going to be attrition. So it's

1701
01:36:57,960 --> 01:37:00,599
Speaker 2: going to be peaceful shrinkage over five years.

1702
01:37:00,640 --> 01:37:02,519
Speaker 1: So you have to do things. But by the way,

1703
01:37:02,560 --> 01:37:04,639
Speaker 1: even if you do that, you say, how much money

1704
01:37:04,640 --> 01:37:05,960
Speaker 1: did I say for the U You say, this is

1705
01:37:06,000 --> 01:37:08,920
Speaker 1: a huge waste of time to do this thing. But

1706
01:37:09,040 --> 01:37:11,080
Speaker 1: every little bit helps, I mean, that's what you get it.

1707
01:37:11,200 --> 01:37:14,959
Speaker 1: Something that I always try to preach on this podcast

1708
01:37:14,960 --> 01:37:17,040
Speaker 1: these days, which is I always say, you know, people

1709
01:37:17,120 --> 01:37:20,320
Speaker 1: try to pigeonhole me. Is either a both sides ers

1710
01:37:20,479 --> 01:37:24,160
Speaker 1: or this you know, is this center. And I always say, look,

1711
01:37:24,200 --> 01:37:26,840
Speaker 1: you have to start incrementally. I'm an incrementalist. I'm not

1712
01:37:26,880 --> 01:37:29,760
Speaker 1: a centrist or a moderate. I'm an incrementalist, meaning I

1713
01:37:29,800 --> 01:37:31,880
Speaker 1: have i'd love some big ideas, but I also know

1714
01:37:31,920 --> 01:37:33,800
Speaker 1: to implement a big idea, you got to do it

1715
01:37:35,560 --> 01:37:35,760
Speaker 1: with you.

1716
01:37:35,840 --> 01:37:38,280
Speaker 2: And by the way, somebody like Trump has no patience

1717
01:37:38,320 --> 01:37:41,120
Speaker 2: for that right, and there's just no there's no payoff

1718
01:37:41,160 --> 01:37:43,320
Speaker 2: and saying let's fix this problem three percent a year

1719
01:37:43,439 --> 01:37:46,719
Speaker 2: or something. So it just doesn't get done, it doesn't

1720
01:37:46,720 --> 01:37:47,040
Speaker 2: get sat.

1721
01:37:47,120 --> 01:37:52,560
Speaker 1: So what is Trump a conservative? What is conservatism? Okay?

1722
01:37:52,360 --> 01:37:55,439
Speaker 2: But what is the future of conservatism? But where does

1723
01:37:55,439 --> 01:37:58,479
Speaker 2: it gout? But he rejects the exotic nature of some

1724
01:37:58,560 --> 01:38:01,799
Speaker 2: of the left. There's a cultural left which is fringe,

1725
01:38:01,840 --> 01:38:05,080
Speaker 2: which is marginal on men playing women's sports and so forth,

1726
01:38:05,200 --> 01:38:08,519
Speaker 2: and he rejects that. So that's reassuring to Middle America.

1727
01:38:08,600 --> 01:38:10,760
Speaker 2: That's not quite that's his unity. That's how what keep

1728
01:38:10,880 --> 01:38:11,759
Speaker 2: glues his coalition.

1729
01:38:12,000 --> 01:38:14,240
Speaker 1: That's loes together, by the way, the rule.

1730
01:38:14,479 --> 01:38:17,639
Speaker 2: So the the parallel question is will the cultural left

1731
01:38:17,720 --> 01:38:21,200
Speaker 2: dominate the Democratic Party or can a Democratic nominee push

1732
01:38:21,280 --> 01:38:24,280
Speaker 2: back against those? Now, Ram Emanuel and I Guess in

1733
01:38:24,320 --> 01:38:26,360
Speaker 2: a radio interview, said that men should not play in

1734
01:38:26,400 --> 01:38:30,240
Speaker 2: women's sports. So he's positioning himself to be more acceptable.

1735
01:38:30,280 --> 01:38:32,120
Speaker 2: I don't know if any other Democrat has come to

1736
01:38:32,200 --> 01:38:33,200
Speaker 2: terms with that issue.

1737
01:38:33,880 --> 01:38:36,559
Speaker 1: Gavin K. Newsome kind of did it. Okay, Okay, well

1738
01:38:36,600 --> 01:38:39,599
Speaker 1: good for now on that. Yeah. But I look at

1739
01:38:39,640 --> 01:38:43,120
Speaker 1: what Wes Moore, you know, is doing with the with Baltimore,

1740
01:38:43,120 --> 01:38:45,360
Speaker 1: and he said, you know what, we'll surge resource. You know,

1741
01:38:45,600 --> 01:38:50,439
Speaker 1: I find what interesting to watch Pritzker fight Trump tooth

1742
01:38:50,479 --> 01:38:52,960
Speaker 1: and nail on this in Chicago and Wes Moore going, look,

1743
01:38:53,000 --> 01:38:55,000
Speaker 1: we don't want the Feds here because that's going to

1744
01:38:55,320 --> 01:38:58,240
Speaker 1: that's going to get into our way. We're making progress,

1745
01:38:58,240 --> 01:38:59,960
Speaker 1: and I'm going to sarch some more resources.

1746
01:39:00,120 --> 01:39:04,200
Speaker 2: I thought that was very wise, Wes More very shrewd. Also,

1747
01:39:04,520 --> 01:39:07,800
Speaker 2: I mean he's without explicitly saying there's some validity to

1748
01:39:07,880 --> 01:39:11,200
Speaker 2: Trump's concerns, without giving Trump any credit at all, He's

1749
01:39:11,240 --> 01:39:12,479
Speaker 2: just saying, let me do it for you.

1750
01:39:12,720 --> 01:39:14,519
Speaker 1: So this goes back to what we were talking about,

1751
01:39:14,560 --> 01:39:17,439
Speaker 1: is like the public here is generally like, yeah, what

1752
01:39:17,840 --> 01:39:20,000
Speaker 1: we agree that what he says is a problem is

1753
01:39:20,040 --> 01:39:22,599
Speaker 1: a problem. We just don't like how you know, but

1754
01:39:23,000 --> 01:39:25,719
Speaker 1: I don't want the mask dice agents. That's crazy. Don't

1755
01:39:25,760 --> 01:39:26,680
Speaker 1: do that, you know.

1756
01:39:27,120 --> 01:39:30,320
Speaker 2: I'd even go one step further, and the economists called

1757
01:39:30,320 --> 01:39:33,760
Speaker 2: Trump's anti crime policy sinister brilliance, meaning it's not just

1758
01:39:34,080 --> 01:39:39,559
Speaker 2: that he's tactically offensive, he is deliberately tactically offensive because

1759
01:39:39,560 --> 01:39:41,720
Speaker 2: it only really works if, you know, if you want

1760
01:39:41,760 --> 01:39:44,840
Speaker 2: to say, who is the least intelligent big city mayor

1761
01:39:44,840 --> 01:39:47,400
Speaker 2: in America, well it might be Chicago. And it only

1762
01:39:47,439 --> 01:39:49,280
Speaker 2: this whole thing really works only if the mayor of

1763
01:39:49,360 --> 01:39:50,880
Speaker 2: Chicago gets up and harm.

1764
01:39:51,479 --> 01:39:55,559
Speaker 1: I believe we're calling this nutpicking, you know, right, right right,

1765
01:39:55,600 --> 01:39:57,600
Speaker 1: you pick the most extreme right.

1766
01:39:58,000 --> 01:40:01,559
Speaker 2: But the mayor of Loves Loves being the fall guy here,

1767
01:40:01,800 --> 01:40:05,040
Speaker 2: he's going to his constituency into it. He's outraged and

1768
01:40:05,160 --> 01:40:07,000
Speaker 2: he's saying, you're being mean to me and will never

1769
01:40:07,040 --> 01:40:08,120
Speaker 2: take and you can't trick me.

1770
01:40:08,720 --> 01:40:11,479
Speaker 1: And what did Prince Grussanin's interview. All big cities have

1771
01:40:11,640 --> 01:40:13,960
Speaker 1: murders and a lot of crime, and I'm just a

1772
01:40:14,040 --> 01:40:17,640
Speaker 1: dreadful response to terrible apologize or deflect the fact that

1773
01:40:17,720 --> 01:40:19,479
Speaker 1: what is it seven people killed over.

1774
01:40:19,479 --> 01:40:22,519
Speaker 2: Holiday weekend or whatever it was in Chicago. So they're

1775
01:40:22,520 --> 01:40:23,960
Speaker 2: playing right into Trump's hands.

1776
01:40:28,240 --> 01:40:31,120
Speaker 1: There never really wasn't air to Reagan, was there Like

1777
01:40:31,240 --> 01:40:35,720
Speaker 1: Bush ultimately didn't you know, he won because he was

1778
01:40:35,760 --> 01:40:40,160
Speaker 1: Reagan's VP. He lost because he wasn't Reagan. Except that,

1779
01:40:40,280 --> 01:40:43,080
Speaker 1: you know, Bush had all sorts of strength. Bush just

1780
01:40:43,160 --> 01:40:45,840
Speaker 1: had a really kind of an impressive guy, very serious

1781
01:40:45,840 --> 01:40:50,280
Speaker 1: about government, about policy, no scandals, no personal behavior on this.

1782
01:40:50,400 --> 01:40:53,639
Speaker 1: So Bush was really a quality guy. What he didn't

1783
01:40:53,760 --> 01:40:57,120
Speaker 1: have is emotional connectivity with the electric What he really

1784
01:40:57,160 --> 01:40:59,280
Speaker 1: thought was the job of president is I'm going to

1785
01:40:59,280 --> 01:41:01,880
Speaker 1: handle the inby solved problems with the outbu It was

1786
01:41:01,880 --> 01:41:04,559
Speaker 1: almost kind of a nineteenth century view of the office.

1787
01:41:04,600 --> 01:41:07,160
Speaker 1: That's saying, we're not really in a communications age. All

1788
01:41:07,200 --> 01:41:09,439
Speaker 1: I have to do is be serious about my job,

1789
01:41:09,760 --> 01:41:14,200
Speaker 1: be honest and hardworking, and that's success. And to say, boy,

1790
01:41:14,200 --> 01:41:17,000
Speaker 1: in the communications era, you're missing a lot, You're missing

1791
01:41:17,000 --> 01:41:18,160
Speaker 1: a lot. So he really didn't.

1792
01:41:18,320 --> 01:41:21,919
Speaker 2: Reagan, I've been with the Hollywood and radio and television background,

1793
01:41:22,360 --> 01:41:26,200
Speaker 2: just had an intrinsic DNA oriented towards communication outward facing

1794
01:41:26,520 --> 01:41:29,040
Speaker 2: and Bush just didn't have that. So there was a

1795
01:41:29,120 --> 01:41:29,880
Speaker 2: huge gap there.

1796
01:41:30,200 --> 01:41:32,400
Speaker 1: So what do you make of this? Is there an

1797
01:41:32,400 --> 01:41:34,400
Speaker 1: era to Trump and what does that look like or

1798
01:41:34,479 --> 01:41:37,040
Speaker 1: is it probably similar to what By the way, there

1799
01:41:37,080 --> 01:41:38,680
Speaker 1: is no successor you know, in.

1800
01:41:39,479 --> 01:41:42,120
Speaker 2: Eighty eight and even in ninety two you had a

1801
01:41:42,120 --> 01:41:44,519
Speaker 2: lot of guys everybody was saying Phil Crane said, I'm

1802
01:41:44,560 --> 01:41:46,639
Speaker 2: Ronald Reagan, Bob Dole said, I'm Ronald Reagan.

1803
01:41:46,840 --> 01:41:49,600
Speaker 1: Everybody. So I grew up assuming Jack Kemp was the

1804
01:41:49,600 --> 01:41:52,160
Speaker 1: real era, and I still believe he was the real era.

1805
01:41:52,439 --> 01:41:54,479
Speaker 1: Air the to the Reagan.

1806
01:41:54,760 --> 01:41:57,919
Speaker 2: Meaning regardless where these people really are in the Maga spectrum,

1807
01:41:57,920 --> 01:42:00,760
Speaker 2: Maga universe, you're gonna have eight people's say I am

1808
01:42:00,840 --> 01:42:02,760
Speaker 2: Donald Trump. I'm Donald Trump, but I feel it a

1809
01:42:02,800 --> 01:42:05,120
Speaker 2: little more this way, I'm Donald Trump, but this kind

1810
01:42:05,160 --> 01:42:08,320
Speaker 2: of but so eight people saying I'm running as a

1811
01:42:08,360 --> 01:42:11,200
Speaker 2: mini me, as an improved or variant of Donald Trump.

1812
01:42:11,360 --> 01:42:13,680
Speaker 2: There'll be a few people will say, you know, I

1813
01:42:13,720 --> 01:42:15,800
Speaker 2: love Donald Trump, but we have to be post Trump.

1814
01:42:15,840 --> 01:42:17,439
Speaker 1: Now. Trump was the right man for his time.

1815
01:42:17,680 --> 01:42:20,160
Speaker 2: So that's kind of a that's not anti MAGA, but

1816
01:42:20,200 --> 01:42:22,360
Speaker 2: it's sort of a non Maga person. But you know,

1817
01:42:22,439 --> 01:42:25,719
Speaker 2: the one anti MAGA person last time was Chris Christie,

1818
01:42:25,920 --> 01:42:27,760
Speaker 2: and I think he topped out of like five percent, and.

1819
01:42:27,800 --> 01:42:29,599
Speaker 1: I walked in the debates, he was pretty good.

1820
01:42:29,640 --> 01:42:31,519
Speaker 2: I mean, he's a smart guy, he's a serious kind

1821
01:42:31,479 --> 01:42:35,080
Speaker 2: of policy but he ran explicitly saying MAGA is bad news,

1822
01:42:35,400 --> 01:42:37,320
Speaker 2: and he got about five percent. Then there were two

1823
01:42:37,400 --> 01:42:40,960
Speaker 2: or three people who are non MAGA, Nikki Hayley and

1824
01:42:41,120 --> 01:42:41,639
Speaker 2: Tim Scott.

1825
01:42:41,680 --> 01:42:44,120
Speaker 1: People said I'm not really MAGA, but I've gotten.

1826
01:42:43,880 --> 01:42:47,160
Speaker 2: Some alternative ideas, and they topped out about thirty percent.

1827
01:42:47,280 --> 01:42:49,759
Speaker 2: So it was a mega party. It was a Donald

1828
01:42:49,760 --> 01:42:50,360
Speaker 2: Trump party.

1829
01:42:50,400 --> 01:42:52,840
Speaker 1: No, there's no doubt that, you know, if you know,

1830
01:42:52,880 --> 01:42:55,400
Speaker 1: I looked back at the Buchanan challenge of H. W.

1831
01:42:55,600 --> 01:42:59,000
Speaker 1: Bush as sort of the first that was the beta

1832
01:42:59,040 --> 01:43:02,160
Speaker 1: test of Trump, right, you know, that was and what

1833
01:43:02,240 --> 01:43:04,960
Speaker 1: did he get? About thirty percent? And now we've almost

1834
01:43:05,000 --> 01:43:07,800
Speaker 1: seen it flip? Right? What was two thirds? One third?

1835
01:43:07,960 --> 01:43:12,000
Speaker 1: Sort of the the more internationalists Chamber of commerce wing

1836
01:43:12,080 --> 01:43:14,519
Speaker 1: of the Republican Party was two thirds of the party.

1837
01:43:14,800 --> 01:43:19,400
Speaker 1: The isolationists, you know, sort of protectionist wing was one third.

1838
01:43:20,160 --> 01:43:22,559
Speaker 1: Is it fair to say we've sort of well what

1839
01:43:22,880 --> 01:43:25,200
Speaker 1: the spots is it? I don't know, Chuck.

1840
01:43:25,240 --> 01:43:28,120
Speaker 2: I mean, I've seen polls say some sixty plus percent

1841
01:43:28,280 --> 01:43:31,160
Speaker 2: of Americans and Republicans and tariffs are a bad idea.

1842
01:43:31,520 --> 01:43:34,640
Speaker 2: So you know, there's deference to this guy because he's president.

1843
01:43:34,880 --> 01:43:37,120
Speaker 2: There's a willingness to indulge him. As long as the economy.

1844
01:43:37,120 --> 01:43:39,719
Speaker 1: I think free trade can come back in twenty twenty nine.

1845
01:43:40,280 --> 01:43:42,280
Speaker 2: I don't know if there's a reversal, but I'm saying

1846
01:43:42,280 --> 01:43:45,639
Speaker 2: people aren't necessarily endorsing or behind what he's doing. It's

1847
01:43:45,640 --> 01:43:48,280
Speaker 2: going to take political leadership to reverse this stuff, and

1848
01:43:48,320 --> 01:43:51,160
Speaker 2: you might have to look for something kind of clever.

1849
01:43:51,240 --> 01:43:53,439
Speaker 2: Meaning just to say I'm for trade liberalization might not

1850
01:43:53,439 --> 01:43:56,520
Speaker 2: get anywhere. But if you said, for example, if we're serious.

1851
01:43:56,160 --> 01:44:00,000
Speaker 1: About the environment, we need a US EU electric vehicle

1852
01:44:00,040 --> 01:44:01,000
Speaker 1: go free trade agreements.

1853
01:44:01,000 --> 01:44:03,759
Speaker 2: We're going to adjust with evs. We're gonna adjust with Europe.

1854
01:44:03,760 --> 01:44:05,880
Speaker 2: But I'm saying Europe because the big problem on the

1855
01:44:05,960 --> 01:44:08,360
Speaker 2: left is always that labor or that wage rate. That

1856
01:44:08,439 --> 01:44:11,559
Speaker 2: say you're secretly shipping jobs to Mexico and you're cheating us.

1857
01:44:11,720 --> 01:44:13,920
Speaker 1: Say Europe is a little more equal on the way too. Yeah,

1858
01:44:14,080 --> 01:44:15,599
Speaker 1: Germany is more expensive than we are.

1859
01:44:15,640 --> 01:44:17,360
Speaker 2: Nobody's going to ship a job to Germany and make

1860
01:44:17,400 --> 01:44:20,600
Speaker 2: cars are gonna ship jobs here. So so it'll reassure

1861
01:44:20,600 --> 01:44:22,840
Speaker 2: Americans there's not going to be job loss. There'll be

1862
01:44:22,840 --> 01:44:25,760
Speaker 2: efficiencies and economic gains out of it. But nobody's gonna

1863
01:44:25,760 --> 01:44:28,280
Speaker 2: put up an auto plant in Germany because so look

1864
01:44:28,360 --> 01:44:30,280
Speaker 2: for something like that that might give us an opening.

1865
01:44:30,640 --> 01:44:30,800
Speaker 1: Uh.

1866
01:44:30,840 --> 01:44:32,600
Speaker 2: There has mean there has to be an argument in

1867
01:44:32,760 --> 01:44:35,920
Speaker 2: rationale beyond the pure economic efficiency that will allow people

1868
01:44:35,960 --> 01:44:36,519
Speaker 2: to vote for it.

1869
01:44:37,920 --> 01:44:40,720
Speaker 1: Most people that listen to my podcasts know that I

1870
01:44:40,760 --> 01:44:43,920
Speaker 1: am a part time professor at USC. So are you

1871
01:44:44,000 --> 01:44:46,880
Speaker 1: welcome to the family here? Thorn say and it's dorn

1872
01:44:46,960 --> 01:44:51,200
Speaker 1: Seife is the school? Are I'm not yet ready to

1873
01:44:51,320 --> 01:44:53,960
Speaker 1: root for Trojans football. I haven't gone that far. I

1874
01:44:54,000 --> 01:44:59,799
Speaker 1: cannot do that. You made a good I know Thort's campus.

1875
01:44:59,800 --> 01:45:03,320
Speaker 2: My brand better camouflage your heterodox views.

1876
01:45:03,360 --> 01:45:05,400
Speaker 1: If you come here, you're going to get strung up.

1877
01:45:05,560 --> 01:45:07,479
Speaker 1: But as an Ohio guy, I mean you must feel

1878
01:45:07,520 --> 01:45:11,080
Speaker 1: a little bit of it there. It's a big ten school, right,

1879
01:45:11,120 --> 01:45:13,040
Speaker 1: I've got to keep that quiet. I've got to keep

1880
01:45:13,080 --> 01:45:13,559
Speaker 1: that quiet.

1881
01:45:14,040 --> 01:45:16,360
Speaker 2: And the test will come when they play it as

1882
01:45:16,400 --> 01:45:18,320
Speaker 2: far when they compete against each other. Right, But you're right,

1883
01:45:18,320 --> 01:45:21,360
Speaker 2: I've got to keep that Buckeye pedigree quiet. But I'll

1884
01:45:21,400 --> 01:45:23,639
Speaker 2: tell you this, it is wonderful to be here on campus,

1885
01:45:23,840 --> 01:45:25,760
Speaker 2: and there's an enormous amount of school spirit and as

1886
01:45:25,760 --> 01:45:28,200
Speaker 2: we were talking earlier, and just sports, which is part

1887
01:45:28,240 --> 01:45:31,200
Speaker 2: of it, but there's an intellectual hunger here. People are

1888
01:45:31,240 --> 01:45:33,519
Speaker 2: trying to understand the world where it's going, how they

1889
01:45:33,600 --> 01:45:35,680
Speaker 2: can fit in, how they can contribute, how they can

1890
01:45:35,800 --> 01:45:38,040
Speaker 2: benefit and get a job or make some kind of

1891
01:45:38,080 --> 01:45:40,439
Speaker 2: career that So it's great to be with this kind

1892
01:45:40,439 --> 01:45:41,000
Speaker 2: of environment.

1893
01:45:41,280 --> 01:45:43,840
Speaker 1: I teach spring semesters. I don't teach fall semesters, but

1894
01:45:44,160 --> 01:45:48,120
Speaker 1: every it is the spring semester. It's like a cleanse

1895
01:45:48,520 --> 01:45:51,679
Speaker 1: It's like an intellectual spa day that you have because

1896
01:45:51,680 --> 01:45:54,439
Speaker 1: they're really you're one hundred percent right. I feel so

1897
01:45:54,560 --> 01:45:57,320
Speaker 1: much better. Every guest speaker brought in and will say

1898
01:45:57,400 --> 01:45:59,400
Speaker 1: to me, hey, thanks for that. It gave me a

1899
01:45:59,439 --> 01:46:02,360
Speaker 1: little bit of you know. And what I love about

1900
01:46:02,400 --> 01:46:04,599
Speaker 1: USC is that it's as bipartisan of a campus as

1901
01:46:04,600 --> 01:46:07,840
Speaker 1: I've come across. Uh substantive.

1902
01:46:08,400 --> 01:46:11,920
Speaker 2: Uh. There's always uh, there's always questions there, and you're

1903
01:46:11,920 --> 01:46:14,720
Speaker 2: always being sort of challenge, but it's not adversarial, it's

1904
01:46:14,760 --> 01:46:15,560
Speaker 2: not hostility.

1905
01:46:15,800 --> 01:46:18,040
Speaker 1: People just didn't explain that that's and it's a very

1906
01:46:18,080 --> 01:46:21,560
Speaker 1: diverse student body in all sorts of as socioeconomic and

1907
01:46:21,880 --> 01:46:24,280
Speaker 1: all sorts of ways I want to leave. I've got

1908
01:46:24,320 --> 01:46:26,360
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of political memorabilia in the back of

1909
01:46:26,479 --> 01:46:29,760
Speaker 1: my studio. Are you you You talk about being a

1910
01:46:29,840 --> 01:46:33,320
Speaker 1: memorabilia collector in your book? What are your what's your

1911
01:46:33,400 --> 01:46:36,639
Speaker 1: prized pieces? What do you still have? Do you still collect?

1912
01:46:37,320 --> 01:46:39,680
Speaker 1: I collect episodically. I'm not.

1913
01:46:39,880 --> 01:46:42,200
Speaker 2: I'm not going out to meetings like I used to.

1914
01:46:42,280 --> 01:46:44,560
Speaker 2: But I'll tell you two things I've got that I

1915
01:46:44,600 --> 01:46:49,639
Speaker 2: think are really nice gems. I have, uh, Congressman William

1916
01:46:49,680 --> 01:46:54,600
Speaker 2: McKinley's Congressional handbook, The Embrassed Congressman William McKinley. He's my

1917
01:46:54,680 --> 01:46:57,799
Speaker 2: hometown guy for Canada Isle. So it's from his terms

1918
01:46:57,880 --> 01:47:00,280
Speaker 2: in Congress that his gross land book with his name

1919
01:47:00,320 --> 01:47:02,960
Speaker 2: and gold on cover. So that's a lovely, lovely item.

1920
01:47:03,000 --> 01:47:04,479
Speaker 2: It's a nice look at and you go through and

1921
01:47:04,520 --> 01:47:06,240
Speaker 2: look at other members of Congress and these all these

1922
01:47:06,280 --> 01:47:08,880
Speaker 2: Civil War heroes, I mean when he served.

1923
01:47:09,240 --> 01:47:11,640
Speaker 1: You know, sort of a golden moment of excellence and

1924
01:47:11,840 --> 01:47:14,680
Speaker 1: talent in the US Congress. So that's one item. The

1925
01:47:14,760 --> 01:47:17,120
Speaker 1: other item I've got is I've got the Chicago Daily

1926
01:47:17,240 --> 01:47:20,800
Speaker 1: News front section Dewey.

1927
01:47:20,600 --> 01:47:24,320
Speaker 2: Defeats Truman, an actual real copy. That's the real copy

1928
01:47:24,360 --> 01:47:27,240
Speaker 2: of a Smithsonian quality product. It's fantastic to have that.

1929
01:47:27,360 --> 01:47:28,800
Speaker 2: So that's great, And I have that on my wall

1930
01:47:29,160 --> 01:47:31,519
Speaker 2: in my home office. I'm here at USC today, but

1931
01:47:31,600 --> 01:47:33,280
Speaker 2: in my home office, I've got it on my wall.

1932
01:47:33,640 --> 01:47:37,240
Speaker 2: And it's a lovely reminder that we're all mortal. Bad

1933
01:47:37,320 --> 01:47:39,479
Speaker 2: news can happen any place. Twist and turns happen at

1934
01:47:39,479 --> 01:47:40,799
Speaker 2: any place, so pay attention.

1935
01:47:40,960 --> 01:47:44,439
Speaker 1: I did a speaking engagement at the Union Club in Cleveland.

1936
01:47:45,479 --> 01:47:48,639
Speaker 1: They have about they have the they have every pen

1937
01:47:48,800 --> 01:47:52,320
Speaker 1: from every governor that's run further that it is. They

1938
01:47:52,400 --> 01:47:55,320
Speaker 1: have a tremendous little bit and nobody cares about it.

1939
01:47:55,400 --> 01:47:58,519
Speaker 1: It's like it's like stuffed to this little hallway a lot.

1940
01:47:58,560 --> 01:48:01,519
Speaker 1: I'm like, it is a amazing The next time you

1941
01:48:01,640 --> 01:48:04,439
Speaker 1: get to Cleveland, I know you will. They have a

1942
01:48:04,760 --> 01:48:09,960
Speaker 1: terrific collection of just every Ohio politico and just like

1943
01:48:10,120 --> 01:48:13,840
Speaker 1: you just described, not some presidential pit of McKinley's, but

1944
01:48:14,080 --> 01:48:16,760
Speaker 1: like you know, local office stuff. That's good stuff. That's

1945
01:48:16,840 --> 01:48:20,000
Speaker 1: very cool. The book, it's a great read, and more importantly,

1946
01:48:20,479 --> 01:48:23,160
Speaker 1: it's not a you didn't like load it up, it's

1947
01:48:23,240 --> 01:48:27,559
Speaker 1: not it's not a PhD thesis on foreign affairs.

1948
01:48:28,920 --> 01:48:31,799
Speaker 2: Keep it colorful, make a few points, keep it thematic

1949
01:48:32,200 --> 01:48:35,120
Speaker 2: as some insight, and tell them something they didn't know.

1950
01:48:35,360 --> 01:48:38,400
Speaker 1: So it's it's worth your time. It's a Reagan biography

1951
01:48:39,040 --> 01:48:42,519
Speaker 1: written today, So there's you're using modern language and you're

1952
01:48:42,560 --> 01:48:44,599
Speaker 1: at least you know, and I think sometimes that can

1953
01:48:44,680 --> 01:48:47,040
Speaker 1: make history a bit more accessible. And I think you

1954
01:48:47,439 --> 01:48:50,120
Speaker 1: for anybody that's younger, For all my friends and family

1955
01:48:50,200 --> 01:48:51,840
Speaker 1: under thirty, I've got quite a few, at least on

1956
01:48:51,920 --> 01:48:55,759
Speaker 1: the family side of things, that are budding political junkies

1957
01:48:55,800 --> 01:48:58,960
Speaker 1: and are looking to understand Reagan. More, guys, this book

1958
01:48:59,080 --> 01:49:01,000
Speaker 1: is a is a good read for you. And you

1959
01:49:01,080 --> 01:49:03,639
Speaker 1: know who I'm talking about. It's some of my nephews

1960
01:49:03,680 --> 01:49:06,799
Speaker 1: and UH and cousins that that had listened there, mister Lavin.

1961
01:49:07,840 --> 01:49:09,519
Speaker 1: I always enjoyed my time with you. It's a lot

1962
01:49:09,520 --> 01:49:10,040
Speaker 1: of fun. Check.

1963
01:49:10,080 --> 01:49:11,920
Speaker 2: I always learned a lot talking to you. I'm glad

1964
01:49:11,920 --> 01:49:14,599
Speaker 2: we're both pulling for the Trojans uh in some form

1965
01:49:14,640 --> 01:49:16,280
Speaker 2: of fashion, maybe just in the class.

1966
01:49:18,720 --> 01:49:21,599
Speaker 1: Fight on my friend fight on. OK. Thanks so much,

1967
01:49:21,840 --> 01:49:36,280
Speaker 1: Thanks Greg, Well, I hope you enjoyed UH that conversation

1968
01:49:36,360 --> 01:49:39,559
Speaker 1: with my friend Frank lavin See, and I even threw

1969
01:49:39,640 --> 01:49:44,000
Speaker 1: in a question about last week's history lesson about Ford's pardon,

1970
01:49:44,880 --> 01:49:49,320
Speaker 1: and it actually, you know, his answer about that about now,

1971
01:49:49,520 --> 01:49:53,240
Speaker 1: Jimmy Carter, was a cleansing the country wanted, regardless of

1972
01:49:53,360 --> 01:49:58,280
Speaker 1: whether Ford had had had shown you less contrition towards Nixon,

1973
01:49:58,320 --> 01:50:01,920
Speaker 1: which I thought was interesting because it did make me

1974
01:50:02,040 --> 01:50:04,680
Speaker 1: think about the moment we're in, right and if we're

1975
01:50:04,800 --> 01:50:09,080
Speaker 1: looking to cleanse ourselves right from this toxic political debate

1976
01:50:09,200 --> 01:50:13,599
Speaker 1: that is just dragging our country down from its pedestal.

1977
01:50:13,760 --> 01:50:17,639
Speaker 1: Is sort of you know, if there were ap college

1978
01:50:17,640 --> 01:50:20,560
Speaker 1: football rankings about countries, I think we'd still be the

1979
01:50:20,680 --> 01:50:22,640
Speaker 1: number one country in the world, but my goodness, we

1980
01:50:22,640 --> 01:50:24,479
Speaker 1: wouldn't have as many first place votes as we used

1981
01:50:24,479 --> 01:50:29,559
Speaker 1: to have. And it's because of our internal strife, right

1982
01:50:29,720 --> 01:50:33,280
Speaker 1: that is our biggest impediment in this country from us

1983
01:50:33,560 --> 01:50:38,320
Speaker 1: doing better things, greater things, helping us advance this planet.

1984
01:50:38,760 --> 01:50:43,679
Speaker 1: Is literally our division is our political division on this front.

1985
01:50:44,240 --> 01:50:53,519
Speaker 1: So September nineteenth, seventeen ninety six, the Philadelphia Daily American

1986
01:50:53,640 --> 01:51:01,519
Speaker 1: Advertisers printed George Washington's farewell address. So yes, that is

1987
01:51:01,640 --> 01:51:06,400
Speaker 1: the history lesson today. It's the George Washington farewell address,

1988
01:51:07,600 --> 01:51:13,280
Speaker 1: arguably one of are technically our only non partisan president, right,

1989
01:51:15,040 --> 01:51:20,040
Speaker 1: He was not a member of any political party. In fact,

1990
01:51:20,120 --> 01:51:25,400
Speaker 1: he used this farewell address to warn against political parties.

1991
01:51:26,800 --> 01:51:29,760
Speaker 1: I guess I would argue that if the closest thing

1992
01:51:29,880 --> 01:51:34,479
Speaker 1: we had to an independent president since George Washington is

1993
01:51:34,600 --> 01:51:40,160
Speaker 1: probably Dwight Eisenhower, and they both shared a title before

1994
01:51:40,200 --> 01:51:47,000
Speaker 1: they became president, didn't they essentially General of our armed forces? Right?

1995
01:51:47,400 --> 01:51:52,640
Speaker 1: So perhaps perhaps there's a pattern here. It's you know,

1996
01:51:53,439 --> 01:51:55,960
Speaker 1: these are two men who ultimately only had to see

1997
01:51:55,960 --> 01:51:59,680
Speaker 1: everybody as Americans first, not as Democrats or Republicans than Americans.

1998
01:52:00,240 --> 01:52:09,639
Speaker 1: Democratic Americans, Republican Americans, no Americans. So a few things

1999
01:52:09,640 --> 01:52:12,040
Speaker 1: about his farewell address, a few little history nuggets. By

2000
01:52:12,040 --> 01:52:18,920
Speaker 1: the way, the US Senate on Washington's birthday, it still

2001
01:52:19,080 --> 01:52:22,240
Speaker 1: has a senator read Washington's farewell address, and it's written

2002
01:52:22,320 --> 01:52:26,200
Speaker 1: in some older English, meaning it doesn't necessarily translate as

2003
01:52:26,280 --> 01:52:29,160
Speaker 1: easily today. So while I will give you a few quotes,

2004
01:52:30,800 --> 01:52:34,759
Speaker 1: I will give you a more modern interpretation of said quote.

2005
01:52:35,400 --> 01:52:38,120
Speaker 1: So there's a few themes you should know about his

2006
01:52:38,400 --> 01:52:41,960
Speaker 1: farewell address. Right. The number one thing he was preaching

2007
01:52:42,200 --> 01:52:45,519
Speaker 1: was unity above all else. In fact, it was the

2008
01:52:45,680 --> 01:52:49,800
Speaker 1: central warning that Washington made in his address is that

2009
01:52:49,920 --> 01:52:55,600
Speaker 1: America's strength depends on national unity. He feared factions, especially

2010
01:52:55,760 --> 01:52:58,720
Speaker 1: factions built on geography. At the time, it was North

2011
01:52:58,800 --> 01:53:02,639
Speaker 1: versus South identity. We were having new Americans come over

2012
01:53:02,720 --> 01:53:05,799
Speaker 1: with part of Europe where you're from, etc. He feared

2013
01:53:05,800 --> 01:53:08,080
Speaker 1: that was going to tear the Republic apart. This is

2014
01:53:08,120 --> 01:53:11,920
Speaker 1: in seventeen ninety six. Today's culture war politics are red

2015
01:53:12,000 --> 01:53:16,200
Speaker 1: blue state divides. Right, our regional polarization, they kind of

2016
01:53:16,240 --> 01:53:22,200
Speaker 1: echo that concern and then some right. His prescription was

2017
01:53:22,200 --> 01:53:26,080
Speaker 1: Americans must see themselves as Americans first, not America first,

2018
01:53:26,479 --> 01:53:30,160
Speaker 1: but as Americans first, not as members of warring camps.

2019
01:53:30,840 --> 01:53:33,840
Speaker 1: So he wrote, the unity of government, which constitutes you

2020
01:53:34,280 --> 01:53:38,240
Speaker 1: one people, is also now dear to you. It is

2021
01:53:38,320 --> 01:53:41,080
Speaker 1: a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence,

2022
01:53:41,760 --> 01:53:45,160
Speaker 1: the support of your tranquility at home, your peace abroad,

2023
01:53:45,840 --> 01:53:49,559
Speaker 1: of your safety, of your prosperity, of that very liberty

2024
01:53:49,880 --> 01:53:54,679
Speaker 1: which you so highly prize. Indignantly frowning upon the first

2025
01:53:54,800 --> 01:53:59,400
Speaker 1: dawning of every attempt to alienate any portion of our

2026
01:53:59,560 --> 01:54:04,320
Speaker 1: country from the rest or to enfeeble the sacred ties

2027
01:54:04,640 --> 01:54:08,960
Speaker 1: which now linked together the various parts. Please don't fragment

2028
01:54:09,080 --> 01:54:13,400
Speaker 1: the country. Please don't factionalize us. You see where he

2029
01:54:13,560 --> 01:54:17,519
Speaker 1: was going. He also gave a warning he had issued

2030
01:54:17,680 --> 01:54:21,640
Speaker 1: on the dangers of partisanship. He called the spirit of

2031
01:54:21,800 --> 01:54:26,560
Speaker 1: party democracy's worst enemy, predicting that it would lead to

2032
01:54:26,640 --> 01:54:32,880
Speaker 1: cycles of revenge, government paralysis, foreign manipulation, and eventually despotism.

2033
01:54:34,720 --> 01:54:37,680
Speaker 1: Is this familiar the dysfunction of modern US politics? The

2034
01:54:37,760 --> 01:54:42,240
Speaker 1: weaponization of investigations, tit for tat, impeachments, shut down brinksmanship.

2035
01:54:44,520 --> 01:54:47,640
Speaker 1: Once again, our founding father pretty prescient on this one.

2036
01:54:48,000 --> 01:54:52,840
Speaker 1: His advice was to discourage and restrain partisanship. Talk about

2037
01:54:53,280 --> 01:54:56,440
Speaker 1: a warning that was unheeded. Let me read you a

2038
01:54:56,560 --> 01:54:58,960
Speaker 1: quote here. I have already intimated to you the danger

2039
01:54:59,040 --> 01:55:01,960
Speaker 1: of parties in the state, with particular reference to the

2040
01:55:02,040 --> 01:55:05,880
Speaker 1: founding of them on geographical discriminations e North versus South.

2041
01:55:06,200 --> 01:55:08,200
Speaker 1: Let me now warn you, in the most solemn manner,

2042
01:55:08,240 --> 01:55:11,080
Speaker 1: against the baneful effects of the spirit of party. Generally,

2043
01:55:11,480 --> 01:55:15,600
Speaker 1: the alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by

2044
01:55:15,640 --> 01:55:19,919
Speaker 1: the spirit of revenge natural to party dissension is itself

2045
01:55:20,080 --> 01:55:27,120
Speaker 1: a frightful despotism that essentially the end state of partisanship

2046
01:55:29,160 --> 01:55:33,520
Speaker 1: gets you further, much closer to authoritarianism than your real life.

2047
01:55:34,840 --> 01:55:37,520
Speaker 1: I mean, he continues, it serves always to distract the

2048
01:55:37,560 --> 01:55:40,920
Speaker 1: public councils and enfeeble the public administration. It agitates the

2049
01:55:41,000 --> 01:55:44,520
Speaker 1: community with ill founded jealousies and false alarms, kindles the

2050
01:55:44,560 --> 01:55:47,280
Speaker 1: animosity of one part against another, and opens the door

2051
01:55:47,320 --> 01:55:51,160
Speaker 1: to foreign influence and corruption. He didn't even know about

2052
01:55:51,160 --> 01:55:54,920
Speaker 1: the algorithms yet in seventeen ninety six, and he knew

2053
01:55:54,960 --> 01:55:59,240
Speaker 1: that foreign actors would be using bots or tik tok

2054
01:55:59,640 --> 01:56:02,320
Speaker 1: or so something else to stir di vision in this

2055
01:56:02,440 --> 01:56:09,000
Speaker 1: country to weaken us. Washington new than He also called

2056
01:56:09,040 --> 01:56:13,680
Speaker 1: for respecting our institutions. Washington insisted that respect for the constitution, laws,

2057
01:56:13,720 --> 01:56:16,400
Speaker 1: and the separation of powers was the bedrock of liberty.

2058
01:56:16,440 --> 01:56:19,640
Speaker 1: Here's what he wrote. Respect for its authority, compliance with

2059
01:56:19,720 --> 01:56:22,640
Speaker 1: its laws, acquiescence in its measures are duties enjoined by

2060
01:56:22,680 --> 01:56:25,800
Speaker 1: the fundamental maxims of true liberty. The basis of our

2061
01:56:25,800 --> 01:56:28,080
Speaker 1: political systems is the right of the people to make

2062
01:56:28,480 --> 01:56:33,000
Speaker 1: and to alter their constitutions of government. But the constitution,

2063
01:56:33,240 --> 01:56:37,840
Speaker 1: which at any time exists is sacredly obligatory upon all

2064
01:56:38,400 --> 01:56:43,000
Speaker 1: follow the Constitution. And when you're doing something unconstitutional, that

2065
01:56:43,200 --> 01:56:47,560
Speaker 1: is un American, and it is against the rest of us.

2066
01:56:51,200 --> 01:56:54,280
Speaker 1: By the way, he also called for fiscal responsibility. He

2067
01:56:54,320 --> 01:56:57,919
Speaker 1: stressed that public credit was a national treasure, urging Americans

2068
01:56:57,960 --> 01:57:01,320
Speaker 1: to avoid excessive debt, to accept taxes are necessary, and

2069
01:57:01,400 --> 01:57:04,480
Speaker 1: to think of posterity in an era of ballooning deficits

2070
01:57:04,480 --> 01:57:09,240
Speaker 1: of polarized tax debates. Wow Washington's sober call for balancing

2071
01:57:09,280 --> 01:57:13,640
Speaker 1: prudence with preparation as a reminder of the stakes. Here's

2072
01:57:13,640 --> 01:57:16,040
Speaker 1: what he wrote as a very important source of strength

2073
01:57:16,080 --> 01:57:18,760
Speaker 1: and security. Chairish public credit. One method of preserving it

2074
01:57:18,920 --> 01:57:22,560
Speaker 1: is to use it as sparingly as possible, avoiding, likewise

2075
01:57:22,600 --> 01:57:26,800
Speaker 1: the accumulation of debt, not ungenerously throwing upon posterity the

2076
01:57:26,920 --> 01:57:31,080
Speaker 1: burthen with which ourselves ought to bear. Don't pass the

2077
01:57:31,160 --> 01:57:34,120
Speaker 1: debt down to me or to my kids or to

2078
01:57:34,240 --> 01:57:45,800
Speaker 1: their group kids. Ugh. There was also some hat tips

2079
01:57:45,840 --> 01:57:48,400
Speaker 1: to morality and knowledge. He said, of all the dispositions

2080
01:57:48,440 --> 01:57:52,000
Speaker 1: and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality

2081
01:57:52,040 --> 01:57:56,080
Speaker 1: are indispensable supports the mere politician, equally with the pious

2082
01:57:56,160 --> 01:57:59,240
Speaker 1: man auto respect and to cherish them. Virtue or morality

2083
01:57:59,320 --> 01:58:02,840
Speaker 1: is a necessary spring of popular government. Now some people

2084
01:58:02,880 --> 01:58:04,440
Speaker 1: will say this that this means it has to be

2085
01:58:04,520 --> 01:58:09,360
Speaker 1: a specific religious or a specific set of morals. We

2086
01:58:09,480 --> 01:58:12,960
Speaker 1: are a country that was founded on a freedom of religion,

2087
01:58:13,000 --> 01:58:16,160
Speaker 1: which also means a freedom not to be religious. But

2088
01:58:16,280 --> 01:58:18,240
Speaker 1: it didn't mean we didn't want to have moral men

2089
01:58:18,520 --> 01:58:22,320
Speaker 1: and women serving in this country and that morality and

2090
01:58:22,440 --> 01:58:25,120
Speaker 1: I do fear that we have lost some way. I mean,

2091
01:58:25,840 --> 01:58:28,640
Speaker 1: we have got to figure out how to how to

2092
01:58:30,400 --> 01:58:33,800
Speaker 1: And again this gets it to my quote from Milton

2093
01:58:33,840 --> 01:58:37,040
Speaker 1: Friedman in the first part of my monologue today, which

2094
01:58:37,080 --> 01:58:41,360
Speaker 1: is we need better incentives if you want people to

2095
01:58:41,480 --> 01:58:46,120
Speaker 1: behave with some sense of good morality when they're in office.

2096
01:58:48,560 --> 01:58:50,840
Speaker 1: On foreign policy, many of you know this one. He

2097
01:58:51,280 --> 01:58:56,760
Speaker 1: warned against entangling alliances. This is probably the biggest takeaway

2098
01:58:56,760 --> 01:58:59,160
Speaker 1: he said. Washington's most famous foreign policy warning was to

2099
01:58:59,240 --> 01:59:02,520
Speaker 1: avoid permanent alliances. Here's what he wrote. Observe good faith

2100
01:59:02,600 --> 01:59:05,320
Speaker 1: and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with

2101
01:59:05,440 --> 01:59:10,800
Speaker 1: all Nothing is more essential than that permanent inveterate antipathies

2102
01:59:10,800 --> 01:59:14,600
Speaker 1: against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded.

2103
01:59:15,160 --> 01:59:18,240
Speaker 1: Don't get fall in love with one nation, don't let

2104
01:59:18,320 --> 01:59:22,440
Speaker 1: hatred of another lead you down a stupid policy path.

2105
01:59:22,880 --> 01:59:24,840
Speaker 1: The great rule of conduct for US in regard to

2106
01:59:24,920 --> 01:59:27,680
Speaker 1: foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations to have

2107
01:59:27,800 --> 01:59:30,560
Speaker 1: with them as little political connection as possible. It is

2108
01:59:30,600 --> 01:59:33,040
Speaker 1: our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with

2109
01:59:33,120 --> 01:59:38,480
Speaker 1: any portion of the foreign world. Well, we've gone back

2110
01:59:38,520 --> 01:59:41,880
Speaker 1: and forth right on this one. I think that we

2111
01:59:41,960 --> 01:59:43,880
Speaker 1: had a pretty good eighty year run when we had

2112
01:59:45,480 --> 01:59:51,080
Speaker 1: a like minded view with other democracy loving nations forming NATO.

2113
01:59:52,160 --> 01:59:57,360
Speaker 1: So I wonder what Washington would think of NATO and

2114
01:59:57,400 --> 01:59:59,360
Speaker 1: whether he would still disagree with it. So that's an

2115
01:59:59,360 --> 02:00:04,200
Speaker 1: interesting I think that's a that's an interesting thing that

2116
02:00:04,640 --> 02:00:06,840
Speaker 1: we would love to find out. What would Washington have

2117
02:00:06,920 --> 02:00:09,720
Speaker 1: thought of NATO? Now he would have to then know

2118
02:00:09,840 --> 02:00:13,080
Speaker 1: that was that America was the most powerful country on earth,

2119
02:00:13,120 --> 02:00:17,080
Speaker 1: and of course when he died, it was still the country.

2120
02:00:17,560 --> 02:00:20,760
Speaker 1: The most powerful country was not US at that time.

2121
02:00:21,000 --> 02:00:26,400
Speaker 1: It was the country that we revolted against. But anyway,

2122
02:00:26,400 --> 02:00:31,040
Speaker 1: there's your history lesson today. I think the Washington Farewell address,

2123
02:00:31,800 --> 02:00:37,800
Speaker 1: his warning about parties his concern about factionalism, his concern

2124
02:00:37,880 --> 02:00:42,560
Speaker 1: about what happens when unity is lost. Boy, I found

2125
02:00:42,600 --> 02:00:44,760
Speaker 1: it to be an elixir when I was doing it again.

2126
02:00:45,760 --> 02:00:48,440
Speaker 1: This is you know, in case you're wondering, I look up,

2127
02:00:48,560 --> 02:00:51,120
Speaker 1: I go through all sorts of different There's all these

2128
02:00:51,160 --> 02:00:54,600
Speaker 1: different history websites that have put together this day in history,

2129
02:00:54,680 --> 02:00:56,080
Speaker 1: this week in history, and all this stuff. So I

2130
02:00:56,200 --> 02:01:01,120
Speaker 1: do it for this specific window. And let's just say.

2131
02:01:01,120 --> 02:01:04,800
Speaker 1: You know, when you see it, you're like, aha, the

2132
02:01:04,960 --> 02:01:08,120
Speaker 1: timing is perfect. All right, let me squeeze in a

2133
02:01:08,200 --> 02:01:10,800
Speaker 1: few questions here because I know I've gone long today,

2134
02:01:11,120 --> 02:01:13,160
Speaker 1: and then right at the end, I'll give you my

2135
02:01:13,280 --> 02:01:18,600
Speaker 1: quick quick a few quick thoughts on college football. But

2136
02:01:18,720 --> 02:01:24,800
Speaker 1: here we go, as Chuck, This one comes from JR.

2137
02:01:24,920 --> 02:01:30,040
Speaker 1: Kunderit Kundert from South Carolina. He says, he's originally from Iowa.

2138
02:01:30,120 --> 02:01:32,720
Speaker 1: Go Hawks. We don't need to talk about it. Oh interesting,

2139
02:01:33,480 --> 02:01:35,040
Speaker 1: he says, Hi, Chuck, big fang of the podcast, and

2140
02:01:35,080 --> 02:01:38,040
Speaker 1: I appreciate how you continue to champion thoughtful, fact based journalism.

2141
02:01:38,240 --> 02:01:40,400
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear your take on a potential James

2142
02:01:40,480 --> 02:01:43,320
Speaker 1: Tolerico Jeff Jackson ticket for president in twenty twenty eight.

2143
02:01:43,760 --> 02:01:46,640
Speaker 1: I know where you're going there. James Tallerco's Jeff Jackson's

2144
02:01:46,640 --> 02:01:50,400
Speaker 1: ag now at North Carolina. James tylerco Is running for

2145
02:01:50,440 --> 02:01:52,320
Speaker 1: the US Senate. I'll get to that in a minute.

2146
02:01:52,720 --> 02:01:56,240
Speaker 1: And Jr. Continues to me, both of these guys are

2147
02:01:56,280 --> 02:01:58,600
Speaker 1: explainers in the vein of Clinton and Obama, smart, clear

2148
02:01:58,640 --> 02:02:01,600
Speaker 1: communicators who connect with the You often mentioned how Democrats

2149
02:02:01,640 --> 02:02:03,800
Speaker 1: have largely abandoned Texas, But wouldn't this be a unique

2150
02:02:03,800 --> 02:02:07,040
Speaker 1: opportunity to rebuild grassroots momentum there? And with Jackson coming

2151
02:02:07,040 --> 02:02:09,760
Speaker 1: from North Carolina, a state you've identified as critical to

2152
02:02:09,840 --> 02:02:13,160
Speaker 1: reaching two seventy, it seems like a strategically interesting pairing.

2153
02:02:13,400 --> 02:02:19,520
Speaker 1: Thanks for all you do. Look, it's an interesting thought there.

2154
02:02:20,600 --> 02:02:24,200
Speaker 1: I know that Jeff Jackson built quite the following on

2155
02:02:24,320 --> 02:02:28,040
Speaker 1: TikTok when he was a member of Congress. I think

2156
02:02:28,080 --> 02:02:30,200
Speaker 1: he's cut that back a little bit now that he's

2157
02:02:30,240 --> 02:02:32,760
Speaker 1: a law enforcement office, the chief law enforcement officer in

2158
02:02:32,800 --> 02:02:38,560
Speaker 1: North Carolina. Look, Tallerico's fascinating to me in particular, and

2159
02:02:38,640 --> 02:02:40,720
Speaker 1: I don't disagree with you on Jeff Jackson, and in fact,

2160
02:02:40,760 --> 02:02:46,280
Speaker 1: I admire that he's I admire that Jeff Jackson isn't

2161
02:02:46,320 --> 02:02:49,600
Speaker 1: in a hurry that you know, he definitely seems to

2162
02:02:49,640 --> 02:02:52,280
Speaker 1: be a pretty gifted communicator, and he is, you know,

2163
02:02:52,840 --> 02:02:55,040
Speaker 1: one step at a time. There was he didn't want

2164
02:02:55,080 --> 02:02:57,000
Speaker 1: to get into a big primary fight with Roy Cooper

2165
02:02:57,360 --> 02:03:00,320
Speaker 1: or you know, okay, you run for the Senate, run

2166
02:03:00,360 --> 02:03:02,400
Speaker 1: for a G. He didn't want to get a big

2167
02:03:02,440 --> 02:03:05,120
Speaker 1: primary fight for governor. The ag ran for governor. He

2168
02:03:05,280 --> 02:03:07,920
Speaker 1: ran for a G. So I admire that he is

2169
02:03:07,960 --> 02:03:12,160
Speaker 1: sort of like you know, sees it as a I'm

2170
02:03:12,200 --> 02:03:14,520
Speaker 1: not just going to race to try to you know,

2171
02:03:14,760 --> 02:03:17,920
Speaker 1: everybody's got ambition in politics. Ambition is a good thing

2172
02:03:18,160 --> 02:03:20,200
Speaker 1: mostly not a bad thing. You have too much ambition

2173
02:03:20,760 --> 02:03:22,560
Speaker 1: to the point of where you don't do your job right,

2174
02:03:22,640 --> 02:03:28,000
Speaker 1: that's when ambition becomes a bad thing. So I definitely

2175
02:03:28,360 --> 02:03:31,240
Speaker 1: think that Jeff Jackson is is definitely in the in

2176
02:03:31,320 --> 02:03:36,800
Speaker 1: the a star pitcher if this were baseball, a star

2177
02:03:36,920 --> 02:03:39,520
Speaker 1: pitcher in double and triple A that you're very interested

2178
02:03:39,560 --> 02:03:41,320
Speaker 1: to see what happens when they come up to the majors.

2179
02:03:41,720 --> 02:03:43,520
Speaker 1: Question is what do you view as the majors running

2180
02:03:43,520 --> 02:03:50,680
Speaker 1: for president running for governor Etctera, Ezra tall Rico, I

2181
02:03:50,720 --> 02:03:53,520
Speaker 1: would be a bit more intrigued with his candidacy in

2182
02:03:53,640 --> 02:03:55,680
Speaker 1: Texas if he were running for governor and that Senate.

2183
02:03:58,040 --> 02:04:01,160
Speaker 1: And I'm of a couple of minds here on this look.

2184
02:04:01,200 --> 02:04:03,000
Speaker 1: I do think it goes to what I said earlier, right,

2185
02:04:03,040 --> 02:04:05,000
Speaker 1: I think we need a pastor for patriotism. In fact,

2186
02:04:05,040 --> 02:04:07,600
Speaker 1: I think if we had, you know, i'd like I

2187
02:04:07,760 --> 02:04:09,480
Speaker 1: can tell you that, you know, the meet the Press

2188
02:04:09,560 --> 02:04:11,440
Speaker 1: I would have done the day would have been James

2189
02:04:11,520 --> 02:04:14,640
Speaker 1: Langford and Ralphael Warnock, two pastors in the Senate, a

2190
02:04:14,760 --> 02:04:18,640
Speaker 1: Republican pastor and a Democratic pastor. But we kind of

2191
02:04:18,720 --> 02:04:23,960
Speaker 1: sort of need that mindset, right, who doesn't immediately A

2192
02:04:24,120 --> 02:04:27,720
Speaker 1: pastor's instinct is to look for good in anybody that

2193
02:04:27,840 --> 02:04:30,280
Speaker 1: disagrees with them, right, is to look for good there.

2194
02:04:30,560 --> 02:04:33,440
Speaker 1: You know, it is sort of at least good pastors

2195
02:04:33,520 --> 02:04:36,640
Speaker 1: do this, right. You know, no pastor wants to shrink

2196
02:04:36,680 --> 02:04:38,400
Speaker 1: their flock. They want to expand their flock. And how

2197
02:04:38,440 --> 02:04:40,400
Speaker 1: do you expand your flock. You have an open mind,

2198
02:04:40,440 --> 02:04:43,240
Speaker 1: you have open arms, et cetera. So I do think

2199
02:04:43,280 --> 02:04:46,520
Speaker 1: the mindset of a pastor in particular is something that

2200
02:04:47,320 --> 02:04:54,360
Speaker 1: our unhealthy culture could use a little bit of. I'm

2201
02:04:54,440 --> 02:04:56,440
Speaker 1: just don't know if he can win a center race

2202
02:04:56,720 --> 02:04:58,880
Speaker 1: in a red state, and I think it's easier to

2203
02:04:58,920 --> 02:05:02,280
Speaker 1: win a governor's race inernce day one two. I think

2204
02:05:02,320 --> 02:05:04,840
Speaker 1: if you're looking to build a larger movement, you have

2205
02:05:05,000 --> 02:05:08,160
Speaker 1: more success. And if you're trying to speak to people

2206
02:05:08,240 --> 02:05:11,640
Speaker 1: in the middle, speak to independence, and speak to moderates

2207
02:05:11,680 --> 02:05:14,320
Speaker 1: on the other side, you know, it is easier to

2208
02:05:14,360 --> 02:05:17,320
Speaker 1: talk to those moderates as a governor candidate than as

2209
02:05:17,360 --> 02:05:20,680
Speaker 1: a Senate candidate. We have so the Senate is so broken.

2210
02:05:21,680 --> 02:05:24,560
Speaker 1: It is as much as I wish senators could go

2211
02:05:24,640 --> 02:05:28,440
Speaker 1: there and all behave like Lisa Murkowski, you know, who's

2212
02:05:28,560 --> 02:05:32,960
Speaker 1: kind of a free agent, but she sort of has

2213
02:05:33,000 --> 02:05:35,360
Speaker 1: the political luxury of doing that because the right tried

2214
02:05:35,360 --> 02:05:36,880
Speaker 1: to get rid of her and they couldn't. So she's

2215
02:05:37,360 --> 02:05:40,760
Speaker 1: she's got this. She's she has her incentive structure, which

2216
02:05:40,840 --> 02:05:45,960
Speaker 1: is the center and center right of Alaska politics. But

2217
02:05:46,120 --> 02:05:48,600
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, the Senate is turned

2218
02:05:48,640 --> 02:05:54,240
Speaker 1: into the House. I mean, in fact, I've been think

2219
02:05:54,280 --> 02:05:59,600
Speaker 1: about the following right as we're doing these redistricting wars. Now,

2220
02:06:00,320 --> 02:06:04,760
Speaker 1: originally the House was elected by the people and the Senate,

2221
02:06:05,560 --> 02:06:10,360
Speaker 1: the US Senate was Senators were elected by state legislators. Well,

2222
02:06:10,400 --> 02:06:12,720
Speaker 1: what if I told you that now our state legislatures

2223
02:06:12,760 --> 02:06:16,960
Speaker 1: are essentially electing the House, and it's the people that

2224
02:06:17,080 --> 02:06:21,520
Speaker 1: are left electing the Senate. It is sort of vast

2225
02:06:21,560 --> 02:06:24,880
Speaker 1: acckwards right from what the founders wanted on this front.

2226
02:06:26,920 --> 02:06:29,400
Speaker 1: But I do think because the Senate has become such

2227
02:06:29,440 --> 02:06:34,120
Speaker 1: a partisan body, and because they've the filibuster has been

2228
02:06:34,200 --> 02:06:38,520
Speaker 1: neutered already, right, sixty votes only now matters in a

2229
02:06:38,720 --> 02:06:42,480
Speaker 1: handful of cases, but fifty votes to confirm people and

2230
02:06:42,560 --> 02:06:44,640
Speaker 1: fifty votes to you know, you can sort of get

2231
02:06:44,640 --> 02:06:47,920
Speaker 1: out of the sixty vote trap by doing a budget reconciliation.

2232
02:06:48,080 --> 02:06:49,600
Speaker 1: You can now do that a couple times a year.

2233
02:06:50,200 --> 02:06:50,800
Speaker 2: And so.

2234
02:06:52,360 --> 02:06:57,680
Speaker 1: The Senate itself doesn't lend itself to be persuasive anymore,

2235
02:06:58,120 --> 02:07:02,200
Speaker 1: doesn't lend itself to be a conveyanner of to try

2236
02:07:02,280 --> 02:07:04,880
Speaker 1: to sort of be the cooling saucer of American politics.

2237
02:07:04,960 --> 02:07:07,920
Speaker 1: If anything, it is now the opposite of that. So

2238
02:07:11,600 --> 02:07:14,640
Speaker 1: I and I I fear for tallar Rico's sake, if

2239
02:07:14,720 --> 02:07:18,040
Speaker 1: his goal is to become more viable as a national candidate,

2240
02:07:18,920 --> 02:07:21,600
Speaker 1: that the partisan nature of the Senate, partisan nature of

2241
02:07:21,680 --> 02:07:26,240
Speaker 1: Senate races now partisan nature of Senate campaigns will make

2242
02:07:26,360 --> 02:07:30,640
Speaker 1: that extraordinarily difficult, and that his he might have a

2243
02:07:30,760 --> 02:07:35,320
Speaker 1: hard time keeping the brand that he is so well established.

2244
02:07:36,880 --> 02:07:41,680
Speaker 1: We're running for governor might seem harder. Greg Abbott's got

2245
02:07:41,720 --> 02:07:44,560
Speaker 1: a boatload of money, but he's been there a long

2246
02:07:44,640 --> 02:07:48,720
Speaker 1: time and he just he just got what's tall. Rico's

2247
02:07:48,760 --> 02:07:52,320
Speaker 1: became national for fighting the governor, for going so partisan.

2248
02:07:53,560 --> 02:07:56,720
Speaker 1: So anyway, you gave me a chance to sort of

2249
02:07:57,080 --> 02:07:59,560
Speaker 1: I do I think he is. You know, when I

2250
02:07:59,560 --> 02:08:02,240
Speaker 1: look around, I put him in my top five of

2251
02:08:02,320 --> 02:08:05,720
Speaker 1: potential presidential candidates right now because he has that Jimmy

2252
02:08:05,760 --> 02:08:08,520
Speaker 1: Carter Pete Bootagech's quality too, that both of them had

2253
02:08:08,640 --> 02:08:10,560
Speaker 1: Carter in the moment back then in seventy five and

2254
02:08:10,600 --> 02:08:12,960
Speaker 1: seventy six. Hey, I've not heard of this guy, but man,

2255
02:08:13,800 --> 02:08:16,160
Speaker 1: I just feel better listening to him than any of

2256
02:08:16,240 --> 02:08:19,880
Speaker 1: the other usual suspects that were running back then. That's

2257
02:08:20,440 --> 02:08:24,800
Speaker 1: how Pete Bootage felt to many a Democratic voter in

2258
02:08:24,880 --> 02:08:29,240
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen. You're like, Oh, that's refreshing, younger,

2259
02:08:29,920 --> 02:08:32,560
Speaker 1: not sort of stuck in Washington speak and all this stuff.

2260
02:08:33,240 --> 02:08:35,400
Speaker 1: I think he's now got a harder time. It's tough

2261
02:08:35,480 --> 02:08:37,080
Speaker 1: to do that twice, right. You can't do it a

2262
02:08:37,120 --> 02:08:40,520
Speaker 1: second time when you've served four years in Washington as

2263
02:08:40,560 --> 02:08:46,360
Speaker 1: a cabinet secretary. But that's why I'm I'm constantly looking

2264
02:08:46,400 --> 02:08:48,760
Speaker 1: at these new voices. And the point is is that

2265
02:08:49,400 --> 02:08:54,160
Speaker 1: I think you picked two really interesting ones, and if

2266
02:08:54,240 --> 02:08:56,240
Speaker 1: either one of them ever became the standard better for

2267
02:08:56,320 --> 02:08:59,000
Speaker 1: the party, it would tell me that the peacemakers were

2268
02:08:59,040 --> 02:09:05,040
Speaker 1: winning the not the dividers. Next question comes from Bryan

2269
02:09:05,120 --> 02:09:07,280
Speaker 1: as Hey, I'm an avid listener and have a question

2270
02:09:07,320 --> 02:09:09,320
Speaker 1: about your time hosting Meet the Press. I get frustrated

2271
02:09:09,320 --> 02:09:11,480
Speaker 1: when gets dodged tough questions and hosts let them pivots

2272
02:09:11,480 --> 02:09:14,160
Speaker 1: talking points. Both parties are skilled at avoiding direct answers,

2273
02:09:14,240 --> 02:09:17,440
Speaker 1: leaving viewers without the clarity they need. How can interviewers

2274
02:09:17,480 --> 02:09:19,800
Speaker 1: keep the focus on critical questions like deploying US troops

2275
02:09:19,840 --> 02:09:22,000
Speaker 1: and cities or accepting foreign gifts without losing control of

2276
02:09:22,040 --> 02:09:24,560
Speaker 1: the segment. So I think there's a simple way to

2277
02:09:24,680 --> 02:09:28,120
Speaker 1: do it, which is one guest for the hour or

2278
02:09:29,160 --> 02:09:32,800
Speaker 1: one guest for twenty minutes. I think when you, I

2279
02:09:32,880 --> 02:09:35,600
Speaker 1: think the flaw in all of the shows right now,

2280
02:09:36,040 --> 02:09:37,960
Speaker 1: And this was a look, this was something I went

2281
02:09:38,000 --> 02:09:41,480
Speaker 1: back and forth with. I wanted I wanted guests for

2282
02:09:41,600 --> 02:09:44,280
Speaker 1: thirty minutes and forty minutes. Most guests won't do it. Okay,

2283
02:09:46,480 --> 02:09:49,080
Speaker 1: you know, you can get the president and the vice

2284
02:09:49,120 --> 02:09:51,680
Speaker 1: president to stick for twenty to thirty. You can get

2285
02:09:51,720 --> 02:09:54,560
Speaker 1: them to sit for thirty to forty. They accept that,

2286
02:09:54,720 --> 02:09:58,120
Speaker 1: especially if you have traveled to do the interview. But

2287
02:09:58,280 --> 02:10:01,240
Speaker 1: outside of them, you start to talk yourself, well, does

2288
02:10:01,280 --> 02:10:03,920
Speaker 1: anybody really want to hear thirty minutes with Chris van

2289
02:10:04,000 --> 02:10:06,200
Speaker 1: Holland or does anybody want to hear thirty minutes with

2290
02:10:06,280 --> 02:10:09,360
Speaker 1: James Langford. Well, the problem is is that when you

2291
02:10:09,480 --> 02:10:11,680
Speaker 1: go down this road and everybody knows it's eight to

2292
02:10:11,760 --> 02:10:16,200
Speaker 1: ten minutes. What you just described is why I prefer

2293
02:10:16,600 --> 02:10:20,360
Speaker 1: this medium right now, then then the then than what

2294
02:10:20,480 --> 02:10:25,520
Speaker 1: had what has developed these days? As as as for

2295
02:10:25,640 --> 02:10:30,800
Speaker 1: interview segments on what's left of traditional media, because everybody's

2296
02:10:30,800 --> 02:10:34,440
Speaker 1: figured it out. I've equated it to baseball analytics. Everybody's

2297
02:10:34,480 --> 02:10:40,040
Speaker 1: got the same data. You know, the interviewer knows that

2298
02:10:40,360 --> 02:10:42,880
Speaker 1: they only have eight to ten minutes, so and they

2299
02:10:43,040 --> 02:10:45,280
Speaker 1: and you know, and maybe you want to get that

2300
02:10:45,360 --> 02:10:48,400
Speaker 1: guest back, So then you did where am I going

2301
02:10:48,440 --> 02:10:50,000
Speaker 1: to ask the tough question? Do I do the beginning?

2302
02:10:50,040 --> 02:10:52,040
Speaker 1: Do I do at the end? And then I got

2303
02:10:52,120 --> 02:10:55,080
Speaker 1: to ask these three questions. Maybe you promised in order

2304
02:10:55,120 --> 02:10:56,840
Speaker 1: to book them that you would ask about this one

2305
02:10:56,960 --> 02:11:00,200
Speaker 1: issue that they care about, and you're like, okay to

2306
02:11:00,240 --> 02:11:02,160
Speaker 1: do that. Well, if you'd agreed to thirty minutes, then

2307
02:11:02,520 --> 02:11:05,920
Speaker 1: then everybody's happy. So I just think the short interview

2308
02:11:06,680 --> 02:11:10,480
Speaker 1: it's advantage interview e, not interviewer. And if you want

2309
02:11:10,520 --> 02:11:16,560
Speaker 1: to get control of interviews back, you got to limit

2310
02:11:16,640 --> 02:11:19,920
Speaker 1: the number of guests you have during your hour and do,

2311
02:11:20,040 --> 02:11:23,640
Speaker 1: as you know, give each interview segment as long as

2312
02:11:23,680 --> 02:11:27,600
Speaker 1: you possibly can, because the longer you have somebody it

2313
02:11:27,760 --> 02:11:29,880
Speaker 1: is easy to bullshit you for five minutes, it gets

2314
02:11:29,960 --> 02:11:34,600
Speaker 1: harder and harder every minute after that. And so ultimately

2315
02:11:34,800 --> 02:11:38,240
Speaker 1: I think that the House the Glory Days of the

2316
02:11:38,280 --> 02:11:41,000
Speaker 1: Sunday shows, they all had one guest for at least

2317
02:11:41,000 --> 02:11:43,960
Speaker 1: twenty to thirty minutes, or you might have two guests

2318
02:11:44,040 --> 02:11:47,280
Speaker 1: on at the same time for thirty minutes, one D

2319
02:11:47,400 --> 02:11:50,200
Speaker 1: and one R. That was sort of kind of standard

2320
02:11:50,240 --> 02:11:53,720
Speaker 1: in the nineties, you know, and you can say attention

2321
02:11:53,880 --> 02:11:57,440
Speaker 1: span and by the way, i'd have producers tell me, hey,

2322
02:11:57,480 --> 02:11:59,920
Speaker 1: look that interview went too long. Viewers started to get

2323
02:12:00,080 --> 02:12:04,520
Speaker 1: hired and leave, right, So I have met the problem,

2324
02:12:04,560 --> 02:12:11,160
Speaker 1: and it is us, but it is if that's that's

2325
02:12:11,280 --> 02:12:15,720
Speaker 1: the ultimately the issue. Everybody's figured out that they can

2326
02:12:15,800 --> 02:12:17,600
Speaker 1: fill either they're not going to be up there more

2327
02:12:17,640 --> 02:12:19,720
Speaker 1: than eight to ten minutes, so you can kind of

2328
02:12:19,760 --> 02:12:22,520
Speaker 1: fill a buster and kind of avoid it. And you know,

2329
02:12:22,800 --> 02:12:25,120
Speaker 1: the few times, you know, when I have, when i'd have,

2330
02:12:25,320 --> 02:12:27,200
Speaker 1: you know, i'd go down the rabbit hole, I'd blow

2331
02:12:27,280 --> 02:12:29,840
Speaker 1: up a panel segment and it would, you know, and

2332
02:12:30,200 --> 02:12:33,440
Speaker 1: it would screw up the timing of the show. And

2333
02:12:34,560 --> 02:12:36,600
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of producers work really hard on

2334
02:12:36,640 --> 02:12:40,120
Speaker 1: these other segments, you know. So it is it is

2335
02:12:40,280 --> 02:12:44,880
Speaker 1: the tyranny of time. But you know, and you're trying

2336
02:12:45,000 --> 02:12:47,720
Speaker 1: to to put on a show that you're getting as

2337
02:12:47,760 --> 02:12:49,800
Speaker 1: many people as you as you can to watch it.

2338
02:12:49,840 --> 02:12:53,400
Speaker 1: But in this day and age where you can you know,

2339
02:12:53,720 --> 02:12:56,800
Speaker 1: I think I kind of I kind of think now

2340
02:12:57,000 --> 02:12:59,200
Speaker 1: I would do if I in a perfect world, you

2341
02:12:59,280 --> 02:13:01,960
Speaker 1: do four long interviews and then you may present the

2342
02:13:02,080 --> 02:13:06,320
Speaker 1: best ten minutes in a summary episode on that Sunday

2343
02:13:06,360 --> 02:13:08,560
Speaker 1: but say, guess what, there are longer versions of these

2344
02:13:08,600 --> 02:13:15,080
Speaker 1: interviews available for everybody. I'm not saying that that's a

2345
02:13:15,280 --> 02:13:17,480
Speaker 1: viable way to do it, but that would be the

2346
02:13:17,600 --> 02:13:25,880
Speaker 1: ideal way to do it, all right, last question, because

2347
02:13:25,920 --> 02:13:30,080
Speaker 1: it gets me into college football. This comes from Chase

2348
02:13:30,080 --> 02:13:32,400
Speaker 1: C from Little Rock, Arkansas. Chuck as a lifelong arc

2349
02:13:32,440 --> 02:13:35,120
Speaker 1: Kansa crowd razorback fan here in Little Rock. I've always

2350
02:13:35,160 --> 02:13:37,360
Speaker 1: felt our state punches above its weight politically. From Bill

2351
02:13:37,400 --> 02:13:40,320
Speaker 1: Clinton and Mikakabye to our current governor Sarah Sanders, Arkansas

2352
02:13:40,400 --> 02:13:43,680
Speaker 1: keeps producing leaders who shape national conversations. Yes, that is true,

2353
02:13:44,640 --> 02:13:47,720
Speaker 1: whether it's on education, agriculture, and cultural issues. From your perspective,

2354
02:13:47,920 --> 02:13:49,920
Speaker 1: what is it about Arkansas political culture that gives it

2355
02:13:50,000 --> 02:13:52,320
Speaker 1: such outsized influence and how do you see that playing

2356
02:13:52,360 --> 02:13:55,320
Speaker 1: out nationally in the years ahead? And for your sports page?

2357
02:13:55,360 --> 02:13:57,400
Speaker 1: With all the changes in college football from nil deals

2358
02:13:57,400 --> 02:13:59,560
Speaker 1: to conference realignment, is it time for Congress to step

2359
02:13:59,640 --> 02:14:02,200
Speaker 1: in and help reform the sport? Go Hogs love the

2360
02:14:02,240 --> 02:14:07,520
Speaker 1: show best regards? Well, look, I think that I think

2361
02:14:07,600 --> 02:14:12,840
Speaker 1: the the both Mike Huckabee and Sarah Huckabee Sanders in

2362
02:14:12,960 --> 02:14:18,240
Speaker 1: some ways. Oh, Bill Clinton, right, there thanks for making

2363
02:14:18,320 --> 02:14:21,800
Speaker 1: them national figures. Right he put Bill Clinton put Arkansas

2364
02:14:21,840 --> 02:14:24,000
Speaker 1: on the national map, and I think it didn't allow

2365
02:14:24,040 --> 02:14:26,560
Speaker 1: But but the fact is, even you know, before Bill Clinton,

2366
02:14:27,680 --> 02:14:30,440
Speaker 1: you did have it win Rockefeller. You know Rockefeller who

2367
02:14:30,920 --> 02:14:35,320
Speaker 1: was an elected official, uh, Winthrop Rockefeller, I believe from

2368
02:14:35,480 --> 02:14:40,040
Speaker 1: from Arkansas, David Pryor and Mark Pryor. David Pryor was

2369
02:14:40,080 --> 02:14:42,280
Speaker 1: considered one of those Southern lions of the Senate sort

2370
02:14:42,320 --> 02:14:44,480
Speaker 1: of in that post Civil Rights era, you know, after

2371
02:14:44,520 --> 02:14:49,400
Speaker 1: the Civil Rights Actors passed on that. And then of

2372
02:14:49,480 --> 02:14:53,520
Speaker 1: course there's the Fulbright Program for J. William Fulbright and

2373
02:14:53,640 --> 02:14:56,440
Speaker 1: Arkansas senator who created the legislation that was about an

2374
02:14:56,440 --> 02:14:59,920
Speaker 1: international exchange program. So the fact is Arkansas has elect

2375
02:15:00,080 --> 02:15:04,920
Speaker 1: did some pretty impressive senators over the years. But there's

2376
02:15:04,960 --> 02:15:07,960
Speaker 1: no doubt I think the Huckabee family has Bill Clinton

2377
02:15:08,000 --> 02:15:10,000
Speaker 1: to thank for making it a little more of a

2378
02:15:10,080 --> 02:15:14,040
Speaker 1: national state. As for the look, Congress is going to

2379
02:15:14,120 --> 02:15:17,440
Speaker 1: have to come in in some form or another, even

2380
02:15:17,480 --> 02:15:19,960
Speaker 1: if it's just to create an anti trust exemption, because

2381
02:15:20,200 --> 02:15:22,480
Speaker 1: I do think you're going to get collective bargaining. I

2382
02:15:22,560 --> 02:15:24,520
Speaker 1: do think that you're going to have the athletes in

2383
02:15:24,600 --> 02:15:28,720
Speaker 1: each conference, especially if the conferences can continue to cut

2384
02:15:28,760 --> 02:15:31,920
Speaker 1: their own media deals on their own, Well, how are

2385
02:15:32,040 --> 02:15:33,680
Speaker 1: the quote players going to get a piece of that

2386
02:15:33,800 --> 02:15:36,000
Speaker 1: media deal. Well, they're going to do it with collective bargaining.

2387
02:15:36,280 --> 02:15:38,280
Speaker 1: So then we're also going to have like the SEC

2388
02:15:38,680 --> 02:15:42,800
Speaker 1: Athletic Union, the ACC Athletic Union, right, or players Association,

2389
02:15:42,920 --> 02:15:45,400
Speaker 1: the Big Ten Players Association. You see where this is going.

2390
02:15:47,840 --> 02:15:50,040
Speaker 1: It's I still think this would all be better if

2391
02:15:50,040 --> 02:15:52,520
Speaker 1: it were done more collectively. Maybe you know, there's a

2392
02:15:53,000 --> 02:15:57,440
Speaker 1: the big booster for Texas Tech Tech Athletics has actually

2393
02:15:57,480 --> 02:16:00,480
Speaker 1: been paying for his own advertising. It's been up on

2394
02:16:00,600 --> 02:16:03,240
Speaker 1: some college football games. I've noticed where he wants to

2395
02:16:03,520 --> 02:16:07,680
Speaker 1: essentially update the nineteen sixty one Broadcasting Act, which is

2396
02:16:08,520 --> 02:16:11,040
Speaker 1: right now is what prevents, for instance, the NFL from

2397
02:16:11,600 --> 02:16:15,480
Speaker 1: ever airing an ad after September, airing football games on

2398
02:16:15,520 --> 02:16:18,320
Speaker 1: Friday nights after September tenth. I think it is because

2399
02:16:18,360 --> 02:16:20,520
Speaker 1: from a period of time they cannot compete against high

2400
02:16:20,520 --> 02:16:23,360
Speaker 1: school football, and there's there's a bunch of windows where

2401
02:16:23,360 --> 02:16:26,520
Speaker 1: they cannot hold games on Saturdays until a certain date

2402
02:16:26,560 --> 02:16:30,440
Speaker 1: in December, and there's some other ways, and maybe updating

2403
02:16:30,520 --> 02:16:36,600
Speaker 1: that gives some creates a way. You know, I personally

2404
02:16:36,680 --> 02:16:39,920
Speaker 1: think that they ought to be negotiating their TV contract

2405
02:16:40,080 --> 02:16:45,800
Speaker 1: collectively the entire FBS as one. I think everybody would

2406
02:16:45,800 --> 02:16:49,280
Speaker 1: make more money. Right. You could certainly stagger it and

2407
02:16:49,480 --> 02:16:54,199
Speaker 1: you know, get more money based on you know, size

2408
02:16:54,280 --> 02:16:58,879
Speaker 1: of budget or something like that. But I definitely think

2409
02:16:58,920 --> 02:17:03,080
Speaker 1: Congress is going to come in because where there's where

2410
02:17:03,120 --> 02:17:05,280
Speaker 1: I where I think you're going to see the most.

2411
02:17:05,760 --> 02:17:08,000
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's when the football programs in your

2412
02:17:08,080 --> 02:17:12,880
Speaker 1: Dakota's right that don't have any football teams in one

2413
02:17:12,920 --> 02:17:16,720
Speaker 1: of the two or three big conferences. Those politicians are

2414
02:17:16,760 --> 02:17:18,720
Speaker 1: going to be, hey, we've got to save ours program,

2415
02:17:18,840 --> 02:17:22,440
Speaker 1: We've got to save our our our football around here.

2416
02:17:22,520 --> 02:17:25,000
Speaker 1: And I think that that's they end up being the

2417
02:17:25,120 --> 02:17:28,000
Speaker 1: trigger to sort of getting getting something happened. It can't

2418
02:17:28,040 --> 02:17:30,040
Speaker 1: really be done on the presidential level. There's not much.

2419
02:17:30,480 --> 02:17:34,120
Speaker 1: There's not much he can do. But for your hogs.

2420
02:17:35,320 --> 02:17:39,480
Speaker 1: You've got in the world of nil between Tyson's Chicken

2421
02:17:40,040 --> 02:17:44,720
Speaker 1: and Walmart. If your friends in Fayetteville can't find the

2422
02:17:44,840 --> 02:17:48,480
Speaker 1: cash to build some big time college athletics over there,

2423
02:17:49,320 --> 02:17:53,040
Speaker 1: it's on them. Because I've seen all that Tyson and

2424
02:17:53,120 --> 02:17:57,280
Speaker 1: Walton money that float floats around the northwest Arkansas. These days,

2425
02:17:57,640 --> 02:18:01,160
Speaker 1: it is created and developed a one full huge new

2426
02:18:01,280 --> 02:18:07,080
Speaker 1: metro area. So it's a pretty my guess, it's a

2427
02:18:07,240 --> 02:18:12,640
Speaker 1: pretty easy source of cash for Arkansas athletics. I think

2428
02:18:12,680 --> 02:18:16,440
Speaker 1: that's why our friend mister Calipari decided to go to

2429
02:18:16,680 --> 02:18:19,560
Speaker 1: Arkansas before he was kicked to the curb by our

2430
02:18:19,600 --> 02:18:22,200
Speaker 1: friends in Kentucky. All right, what do we learned this

2431
02:18:22,320 --> 02:18:26,920
Speaker 1: week in college football? Well, I was glad to see

2432
02:18:26,920 --> 02:18:31,800
Speaker 1: Miami as focused I think Miami. Here's what I don't

2433
02:18:31,920 --> 02:18:33,960
Speaker 1: I don't know if South you know, this is always

2434
02:18:33,959 --> 02:18:36,960
Speaker 1: one of these tyranny. Here's a rhetorical question because I

2435
02:18:37,000 --> 02:18:40,800
Speaker 1: don't have the answer. If you beat a ranked team,

2436
02:18:40,959 --> 02:18:43,280
Speaker 1: but that team isn't ranked at the end of the year,

2437
02:18:43,400 --> 02:18:48,760
Speaker 1: did you beat a ranked team? The point I'm making

2438
02:18:48,920 --> 02:18:53,280
Speaker 1: is so South Florida beat Boise when they were ranked,

2439
02:18:53,320 --> 02:18:55,480
Speaker 1: and they beat Florida when they were ranked. Neither team

2440
02:18:55,560 --> 02:18:58,560
Speaker 1: is ranked now. Well, Florida may not ever be ranked

2441
02:18:58,680 --> 02:19:01,200
Speaker 1: unless they beat Miami next I'm going to that game.

2442
02:19:01,240 --> 02:19:03,920
Speaker 1: I sure hope they don't be Miami next week, but

2443
02:19:04,080 --> 02:19:07,879
Speaker 1: they may not be ranked again. So did South Florida

2444
02:19:07,920 --> 02:19:10,760
Speaker 1: be two ranked teams in a row or not, right,

2445
02:19:11,280 --> 02:19:13,760
Speaker 1: and so this is I know it's a small thing,

2446
02:19:13,840 --> 02:19:16,880
Speaker 1: but we're you know, we think we know who the

2447
02:19:16,920 --> 02:19:18,920
Speaker 1: good teams are, but we usually don't know until the

2448
02:19:19,040 --> 02:19:23,480
Speaker 1: end of the year. Is you know it's South Carolina

2449
02:19:23,480 --> 02:19:25,120
Speaker 1: a good football team or not. They were ranked in

2450
02:19:25,160 --> 02:19:28,520
Speaker 1: the top ten. They just got wiped out by Vanderbilt.

2451
02:19:28,560 --> 02:19:30,400
Speaker 1: And you could say, well, they lost their quarterback. They

2452
02:19:30,440 --> 02:19:34,359
Speaker 1: were losing that game with their quarterback. And what Vanderbilt

2453
02:19:34,440 --> 02:19:37,600
Speaker 1: did the Virginia Tech versus what South Carolina did to

2454
02:19:37,680 --> 02:19:42,720
Speaker 1: Virginia Tech on it it's nine and day and Vanderbilt

2455
02:19:42,760 --> 02:19:46,880
Speaker 1: was unranked. Now that I don't ranked anymore, so you know,

2456
02:19:47,080 --> 02:19:49,600
Speaker 1: I am mindful that we still don't know. You know,

2457
02:19:49,720 --> 02:19:52,840
Speaker 1: we think we know who's good. I'm impressed with the

2458
02:19:52,920 --> 02:19:55,960
Speaker 1: ap pole that they kept Notre Dame ranked. Now, if

2459
02:19:56,000 --> 02:19:58,120
Speaker 1: it were any other school, the Notre Dame bias may

2460
02:19:58,160 --> 02:19:59,920
Speaker 1: have kicked in, which allowed them to be the first

2461
02:20:00,240 --> 02:20:02,000
Speaker 1: and two team in like thirty years to be ranked

2462
02:20:02,040 --> 02:20:05,920
Speaker 1: still in the top twenty five. But if you believe

2463
02:20:05,959 --> 02:20:09,119
Speaker 1: the polls, the two games they've lost, they've lost two

2464
02:20:09,200 --> 02:20:11,760
Speaker 1: games by total of four points to one team ranked

2465
02:20:11,800 --> 02:20:14,240
Speaker 1: fourth and another team rang ninth I believe is where

2466
02:20:14,400 --> 02:20:18,240
Speaker 1: Texas A and M ended up, so you know, or

2467
02:20:18,320 --> 02:20:21,199
Speaker 1: maybe it's ten but either way, but are we sure

2468
02:20:21,560 --> 02:20:26,960
Speaker 1: right now? It looks like Miami's legit. It looks like

2469
02:20:27,320 --> 02:20:29,480
Speaker 1: Notre Dame in Texas A and M are certainly not

2470
02:20:29,640 --> 02:20:33,200
Speaker 1: bad teams. They're pretty good teams. I don't know if

2471
02:20:33,240 --> 02:20:37,920
Speaker 1: Georgia and Tennessee are good or if those are two

2472
02:20:38,160 --> 02:20:41,520
Speaker 1: terrible defenses, because I also saw Tennessee give up a

2473
02:20:41,720 --> 02:20:44,640
Speaker 1: boatload of points up against the Syracuse team that I

2474
02:20:44,640 --> 02:20:47,640
Speaker 1: don't think is that good this year. So is it

2475
02:20:47,760 --> 02:20:51,720
Speaker 1: possible that both Tennessee and Georgia have great offenses and

2476
02:20:51,840 --> 02:20:53,800
Speaker 1: not so good defenses. By the way, it is striking

2477
02:20:53,840 --> 02:20:57,640
Speaker 1: to me that Kirby Smart doesn't have a great defense.

2478
02:21:00,080 --> 02:21:01,600
Speaker 1: Going to get another test in two weeks when he

2479
02:21:01,600 --> 02:21:09,840
Speaker 1: plays Alabama. So look, there wasn't other than exposing I

2480
02:21:09,879 --> 02:21:12,360
Speaker 1: think what we learned this week is who's not who

2481
02:21:12,440 --> 02:21:17,000
Speaker 1: doesn't belong? Right? I think we know Clemson doesn't belong

2482
02:21:17,080 --> 02:21:21,000
Speaker 1: in the top tier this year. There's a lot of

2483
02:21:21,040 --> 02:21:24,160
Speaker 1: Clemson doubters that are that are feeling their oats right now.

2484
02:21:26,640 --> 02:21:32,240
Speaker 1: Those of us that enjoy Dabbo are enjoying this moment

2485
02:21:32,280 --> 02:21:37,240
Speaker 1: a little bit. Maybe I'm not gonna lie, but Dabo's

2486
02:21:37,280 --> 02:21:39,000
Speaker 1: on a warm seat, not a hot seat, but he's

2487
02:21:39,040 --> 02:21:42,000
Speaker 1: on a warm seat because he continues to sort of

2488
02:21:42,120 --> 02:21:44,720
Speaker 1: try to He believes his way is going to still

2489
02:21:44,760 --> 02:21:47,800
Speaker 1: be able to win, and this is a big bad

2490
02:21:47,959 --> 02:21:51,400
Speaker 1: start for him. As for Georgia Tech, we know they're good.

2491
02:21:51,440 --> 02:21:53,520
Speaker 1: The question is are they are top ten good? That

2492
02:21:53,680 --> 02:21:57,800
Speaker 1: we don't know yet. Let's just say, considering the Miami's

2493
02:21:57,840 --> 02:22:00,480
Speaker 1: had problems with Georgia Tech, I'm glad george Tech is

2494
02:22:00,600 --> 02:22:03,800
Speaker 1: not on our schedule this year, although I have this

2495
02:22:04,000 --> 02:22:06,480
Speaker 1: vision Miami's twelve and zero going into the ACC title

2496
02:22:06,520 --> 02:22:11,039
Speaker 1: game and has to play Georgia Tech. Of course, if

2497
02:22:11,080 --> 02:22:13,360
Speaker 1: that's the case, maybe they rest their starters and claim

2498
02:22:13,480 --> 02:22:18,080
Speaker 1: they aren't really trying that hard. But we know Clemson's

2499
02:22:18,080 --> 02:22:24,160
Speaker 1: not there. We know South Carolina doesn't belong. I don't

2500
02:22:24,160 --> 02:22:29,039
Speaker 1: know where I'm at on Michigan yet. Oklahoma. I expected

2501
02:22:29,120 --> 02:22:33,119
Speaker 1: to play a bit of a letdown game against Temple

2502
02:22:33,320 --> 02:22:35,560
Speaker 1: in Philadelphia, had a weird time start time, and they

2503
02:22:35,600 --> 02:22:40,000
Speaker 1: didn't show any letdown. That impressed me. Let me see

2504
02:22:40,000 --> 02:22:43,320
Speaker 1: what they do against Auburn. But I'm starting to think

2505
02:22:43,400 --> 02:22:46,880
Speaker 1: that Oklahoma Texas is going to be is going to

2506
02:22:46,920 --> 02:22:50,840
Speaker 1: be extraordinarily meaningful, Like not since both teams were in

2507
02:22:50,920 --> 02:22:54,160
Speaker 1: the Big Twelve has this game been that important? Perhaps

2508
02:22:55,240 --> 02:22:57,280
Speaker 1: onto where things go, I mean, put it this way,

2509
02:22:57,280 --> 02:23:00,680
Speaker 1: I don't think Texas could afford a second loss at

2510
02:23:00,720 --> 02:23:06,240
Speaker 1: this point. And let me just do a little bias

2511
02:23:06,320 --> 02:23:10,640
Speaker 1: commentary here. What's with the lack of interest in Carson

2512
02:23:10,680 --> 02:23:14,400
Speaker 1: Beck is a Heisman candidate. It's interesting to me that

2513
02:23:14,480 --> 02:23:18,840
Speaker 1: people are still insisting arch Manning is just look at

2514
02:23:18,879 --> 02:23:21,480
Speaker 1: the just do a blind taste test on that one.

2515
02:23:21,840 --> 02:23:24,600
Speaker 1: Do your blind test on Carson Beck, arch Manning, do

2516
02:23:24,640 --> 02:23:27,840
Speaker 1: your blind test on Frankly, Carson Beck and anybody you

2517
02:23:27,879 --> 02:23:31,640
Speaker 1: want to put in there. He's not being talked about.

2518
02:23:31,720 --> 02:23:34,280
Speaker 1: He's sort of like in the he gets written up

2519
02:23:34,520 --> 02:23:38,320
Speaker 1: as others receiving votes, you know, like you know, we're

2520
02:23:38,360 --> 02:23:44,279
Speaker 1: not ignoring him. But anyway, I think the guy deserves

2521
02:23:44,320 --> 02:23:47,000
Speaker 1: a little more. But hey, in some ways, I don't

2522
02:23:47,000 --> 02:23:50,360
Speaker 1: want Miami's heads to get too big. I can't believe

2523
02:23:50,440 --> 02:23:52,160
Speaker 1: Game Day is going to Miami and shows you how

2524
02:23:52,240 --> 02:23:54,440
Speaker 1: kind of weak the college football slate is. Next week

2525
02:23:55,400 --> 02:23:57,959
Speaker 1: I'm trying to remember the last time Game Day went

2526
02:23:58,080 --> 02:24:00,120
Speaker 1: to a game where one of the two teams had

2527
02:24:00,160 --> 02:24:06,119
Speaker 1: a losing record. Because Florida's one and two playing Miami,

2528
02:24:06,160 --> 02:24:08,520
Speaker 1: but they're coming down to the U. Let's just say

2529
02:24:08,560 --> 02:24:10,640
Speaker 1: that there's a certain senior at the University of Miami

2530
02:24:10,680 --> 02:24:14,360
Speaker 1: that's related to me that is ecstatic. She's been hoping

2531
02:24:14,400 --> 02:24:16,560
Speaker 1: game Day would come and out of for four years.

2532
02:24:16,600 --> 02:24:18,400
Speaker 1: She was bummed last year when they decided to go to.

2533
02:24:19,280 --> 02:24:21,640
Speaker 1: The only Miami game Day there was was the one

2534
02:24:21,720 --> 02:24:24,840
Speaker 1: in Berkeley when they went there for cal I was

2535
02:24:24,879 --> 02:24:27,680
Speaker 1: starting to think it was going to be Tallahassee, though,

2536
02:24:27,840 --> 02:24:30,480
Speaker 1: I think because of the way ESPN treated Florida State,

2537
02:24:30,600 --> 02:24:32,600
Speaker 1: I'm not sure they would be very welcome they went

2538
02:24:32,640 --> 02:24:39,480
Speaker 1: to Tallahassee, considering how ESPN was arguably the reason why

2539
02:24:39,560 --> 02:24:42,400
Speaker 1: Florida State got left out of the College Football Playoff

2540
02:24:43,160 --> 02:24:46,600
Speaker 1: despite being unfeeded at the time of the selection process,

2541
02:24:47,080 --> 02:24:49,240
Speaker 1: so maybe they wouldn't be quite welcome for the Florida

2542
02:24:49,280 --> 02:24:50,960
Speaker 1: State Miami game, which is going to be in the

2543
02:24:51,000 --> 02:24:54,240
Speaker 1: first week of October, a natural potential place for game

2544
02:24:54,320 --> 02:24:57,800
Speaker 1: Day to go if both teams were unfeeded. The only

2545
02:24:57,840 --> 02:24:59,960
Speaker 1: other game that would have competed with Miami Florida is

2546
02:25:00,000 --> 02:25:03,920
Speaker 1: probably Indiana and Illinois, which just as a as a

2547
02:25:04,320 --> 02:25:08,160
Speaker 1: derivative of family from the Midwest. I love that Illinois

2548
02:25:08,160 --> 02:25:13,480
Speaker 1: and Indiana is a meaningful game. I've googled it. I'm

2549
02:25:13,520 --> 02:25:17,920
Speaker 1: sticking with signetti anyway. So there's my two or three

2550
02:25:18,000 --> 02:25:22,920
Speaker 1: cents in college football this week. I'm just relieved Miami

2551
02:25:22,959 --> 02:25:25,760
Speaker 1: has survived and advanced, because that's the beauty of college football.

2552
02:25:25,879 --> 02:25:29,760
Speaker 1: Every week. You don't get eliminated after one loss anymore,

2553
02:25:29,800 --> 02:25:32,039
Speaker 1: but every week there are some teams that are eliminated.

2554
02:25:33,879 --> 02:25:36,440
Speaker 1: And I do want to be careful saying Clemson's been eliminated.

2555
02:25:36,560 --> 02:25:38,800
Speaker 1: They can always backdoor their way in because they always

2556
02:25:38,800 --> 02:25:40,400
Speaker 1: figure out how to back door. They weigh in. But

2557
02:25:42,520 --> 02:25:45,600
Speaker 1: this doesn't look like it just looks like a team

2558
02:25:45,680 --> 02:25:47,800
Speaker 1: that feels like they're going to continue to come up short.

2559
02:25:48,240 --> 02:25:50,520
Speaker 1: All right, with that, I will take a forty eight

2560
02:25:50,560 --> 02:25:55,560
Speaker 1: hour break. We will upload on Wednesday. With that, just

2561
02:25:56,120 --> 02:26:03,520
Speaker 1: remember you don't have to be angry. Being angry sod choice.

2562
02:26:05,360 --> 02:26:08,600
Speaker 1: Choose grace. See you in a couple of days.