1 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: Bodybacks with Joseph Scott Morgan. You know certain people in 2 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: this life that just have an inclination toward helping those 3 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: that are less fortunate. Emily Noble with such person. She 4 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: particularly had a heart for those that were aged, those 5 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: that had lost loved ones that were up in age 6 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: and we're in declining health. And she had spent her 7 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: entire adult life taking care of individuals like this, And 8 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: people said that she would just light up a room 9 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: when she came in, and she was tenacious as well. 10 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: She worked in a medicare office and she would go 11 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: to bat for people and she would look out for them, 12 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: and she still to this day is remembered for that 13 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: specific trait. However, the one thing that sticks in my 14 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: mind about Emily is that Emily was found all alone 15 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: in a wooded area, deceased in a very unusual way. Today, 16 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the death of Emily Noble. 17 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: M Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Bags. Joining 18 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: me is Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crown Stories with 19 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Jackie, you know Emily, she actually went missing 20 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: on her birthday. That day that we celebrate a life 21 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 1: of an individual. I can't even imagine how this impacted 22 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: the world in which she inhabited. You're absolutely right, Joe. 23 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: We do know that, as you pointed out, Emily was 24 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: very highly thought of by her friends and family. And 25 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: let's look a little bit at her life before we 26 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: talk about her death. Emily was in her second marriage. 27 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: Her first husband had died, he committed suicide, and then 28 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: Emily met a new person to share her wife with. 29 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: Her second husband is Matthew Moore, and he brought children 30 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: into the marriage, a seventeen year old son, and the 31 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: son had some emotional difficulties, but Emily, as you said, 32 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:26,959 Speaker 1: had experience with that, so bringing this dynamic into their 33 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,959 Speaker 1: marriage was really not a hardship for Emily. She went 34 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: out with her husband again, Matthew Moore, to celebrate her 35 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 1: fifty second birthday in that was the Memorial Day weekend holiday. 36 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: They went out, had a nice evening already a little 37 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: bit at a few drinks, had dinner with friends, and 38 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: then they went home. That night. After going to bed, 39 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: Matthew Moore says he got up and instead of returning 40 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: to the bedroom after using the restroom, he decided to 41 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: go into a spare guest him so that he would 42 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: not disturb his wife's sleep. When he gets up the 43 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: next morning, Emily is gone. What do you do at 44 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:10,679 Speaker 1: that moment? You know, as an investigator, a lot of 45 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: people would ask me, you know, some of the things 46 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: that you're going to be looking for. You know, when 47 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: you show up at a scene like this where it 48 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: seems as though the individual is just like vanished into 49 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: thin air. You know, those those remnants of their life, 50 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: and you know, you think about the world that we 51 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: live in. You think about car keys and I d 52 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: and pocketbooks and wallets and vehicles, you know, all these 53 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: sorts of things that give you an indication that someone 54 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: has actually left. And you know, when we come onto 55 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: a scene, as an investigator, will look for those little 56 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: points of evidentiary consideration along the way, just to try 57 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: to try to get an ideas to what was happening. 58 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: Because understand this, anytime you're talking about a missing person's 59 00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: case into a great degree of death investigation, you've got 60 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: nothing to work with other than those physical things that 61 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: are either present or absent. My old adage is this, 62 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: and I teach my students this in the classes, is 63 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: that you know, negative findings are just as valuable as 64 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: positive findings along the way, because you know, if you 65 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: create this huge mental checklist in your mind, you're essentially 66 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: knocking things off that are going to probably block or 67 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: clued your view as an investigator, so you can begin 68 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: to eliminate things. So if you've got a person that 69 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 1: lives at a particular residence, their keys are still there 70 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: there while it's still there, their vehicles, their money, all 71 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 1: those sort of things that you need to kind of 72 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: get by outside of the home, then that begins to 73 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: narrow your focus down quite a bit. And then of course, 74 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: the next thing you're gonna jump to or things like, 75 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: you know, signs of struggle. And we've all heard this before. 76 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: There's no signs of forced entry or struggle at the scene. 77 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: And it's kind of it's almost a boilerplate statement that 78 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 1: we make, but there's a lot of depth there, you know, 79 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: when you think about it signs a forced entry, Well, 80 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: we'll look around the doorframe to see if it's been 81 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: pressed in any way. One of the things that I 82 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: have been witnessed to where you have somebody that comes 83 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: into a home and actually commits some kind of horrible 84 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:19,559 Speaker 1: crime in this environment, I've seen any number of times 85 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 1: where there is a clear footprint on the door, generally 86 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: near the latch externally, where people have kicked it in 87 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: and it it really that tells a lot, doesn't it. 88 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: Or maybe a location where somebody has put their shoulder 89 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: into the door and you've got broken glass and the 90 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: frame is it's kind of caved in. And then when 91 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: you get inside of the home, if someone is resistant, 92 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: for instance, you kind of surprised them. You might have 93 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: upturned furniture where they're struggling to get away from the stranger. 94 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: But none of that stuff existed. And keep in mind 95 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: chiefs in dwelling this residence with her husband, even though 96 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: he's not in the same room with her. According to him, 97 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: he's you know, gone off and slept in a separate 98 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: area in order to avoid waking her up. You would 99 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: think that if something like that had occurred, he could 100 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: have been alerted, you know, a hot pitch, scream or 101 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: the crashing of furniture and all that sort of thing. 102 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: None of that really existed in this environment. Emily just 103 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: kind of vaporized, just disappeared. You brought up being able 104 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: to hear if something happened. So you're talking eyewitness and 105 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: ear witness. So did the husband hear anything? Did you 106 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: hear someone trying to get into the home? And then 107 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: we want to look at the eyewitness not just did 108 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 1: anybody in the neighborhood see something going on? But looking 109 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: at what was found in the bedroom? Was anything missing? 110 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:48,919 Speaker 1: Was the bed awry? Was their blood? Was there anything broken? 111 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: And those are all the things that you're talking about, Joe. 112 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: So hel do the investigators proceed since at this point 113 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: there doesn't seem to be anything wrong. Yeah, there's not 114 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: a think that one really salient point here that would 115 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 1: really you know, from an investigative standpoint, that would really 116 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: raise my red flags is what what do we know 117 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: about what was occurring that evening? Well, we know that 118 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: there was a birthday celebration, and anytime you have as 119 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: an death investigator particular, I've always had these kind of markers. 120 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: They involve anniversaries, birthdays, maybe anniversaries in your mind, where 121 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: their benchmarks in your own life, where people have passed 122 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: away that you greatly love, And sometimes those are indications 123 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: of an individual maybe going off to do some kind 124 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: of self harm, are right, because they're sad about getting 125 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: older or they're sad because they're missing somebody in their life, 126 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:41,679 Speaker 1: or you know, they've gone through a divorce or something 127 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: that happened on that particular day. And then you couple 128 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: that with the fact that she and her husband had 129 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: gone out that night to celebrate her birthday. It's not 130 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: like they just stopped off at a local watering hole 131 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: and just kind of sat there and just you know, 132 00:07:57,720 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: talked and you know, had a few drinks. That they 133 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: were to multiple locations. And when you begin to talk 134 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: about something as weighty as this adult woman that just 135 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: vanishes off of the face the planet, you know, what 136 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: is it that she's engaging in at that moment tim 137 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: or approximating that moment tom that's different than any other 138 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: time in her normal day to day life. Well, she's 139 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: going out to these multiple locations. There's an opportunity if 140 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: you have a predator out there, for instance, that will 141 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: have spotted these two together or maybe had spotted her 142 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:35,839 Speaker 1: and they were going to target her. So you're going 143 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: to multiple locations and you're kind of following them along, 144 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: and as an investigator, that's one of the things that 145 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: we pick up on. You know, you're gonna do a 146 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: deep dive into this, go back look at CCTV captures 147 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,959 Speaker 1: if you can, from local bars, also from anything that's 148 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: out on the street, street pew camps, those sorts of things, 149 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:56,199 Speaker 1: to see if anybody was shadowing them as they're kind 150 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:58,719 Speaker 1: of walking around and moving back and forth to their 151 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: car and that sort of thing. Because you have to eliminate, 152 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: like I said, you have to eliminate all of the 153 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: possibilities moving forward. You know, we you only get really 154 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 1: one shot at this. And how how a case like 155 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: this will vary from a say, a static death investigation 156 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 1: where you have a body and you're going out there 157 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: and you're kind of tracing back from that primary scene 158 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:28,079 Speaker 1: location back to where they were living or where they 159 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: had been that sort of thing. This is still very 160 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: dynamic because you're working assumption is that at this point 161 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,839 Speaker 1: in time she is still alive. So you throw in 162 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: this idea that you're you know, you're calling in missing 163 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: person squad, you might be calling in federal marshals or 164 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: state police that are going to be on the lookout, 165 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 1: and so you've got all this other data that's coming in, 166 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: and you know that's all fine and good, but what 167 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: happens is a lot of the stuff that you're looking 168 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: at forensically that a death investigator will look at. It's 169 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: kind of being lost. It's being lost because your focus 170 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: has shifted in this type of investigation. I know that 171 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: there's not a printed list Joe of things that investigators 172 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: go through. It's probably a list in their mind of 173 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 1: you know, what they're looking for in a house or 174 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: in a location. Rather when someone goes missing. But here 175 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 1: you had the evidence, her phone, her keys, Emily's wallet 176 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: are still in the home. So you've got this checklist 177 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,199 Speaker 1: that you go by in your mind that you're checking. 178 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: Is anybody seen, or is their cameras in the house, 179 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 1: are their footprints outside? So many things. But if there is, 180 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 1: as you pointed out earlier, negative findings, how do you 181 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 1: go about setting yourself up for a successful investigation. Well, 182 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: it comes down to probability. At that point in time, 183 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,719 Speaker 1: you begin to think, well, if she is not here 184 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:59,719 Speaker 1: in this location and there's no evidence that something has 185 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: happened open that is indicative of a horrific event like 186 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: broken furniture, blood trails, blood spots, attempts to clean up blood, 187 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: all those sorts of things. Then you have to think, well, 188 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: what are going to be my highest probabilities for what 189 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: happened to her. And you have to follow kind of 190 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: that line of logic. And you know, if the car 191 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: is still there, you think, well, she's walking, she's ambulatory. 192 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 1: At that point in time, she has wandered away from 193 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: the house. I don't know. Maybe she came home that 194 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: night they had had a lot to drink. She's in 195 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: the bedroom by herself, admittedly according to her husband, remember 196 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: he said he wouldn't slept in the other bedroom. She 197 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: wakes up, she's disoriented, she walks out of the door, 198 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: closes the door behind her, and wanders off, maybe in 199 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: her bare feet. If you can't find her shoes around 200 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: the house, then you assume that she put them on. 201 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 1: But if she didn't, maybe she got a pair of 202 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: house shoes she walked out in those What are the possibilities? 203 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 1: And it's from that central point, that central point, which 204 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: would be her bedroom where she was asked known to 205 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: be alive according to her husband, you would begin to 206 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: use that as your investigative hub. That's the hub of 207 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: the wheel, and then radiating out from that, you're going 208 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: to follow every type of physical path that she could 209 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: have potentially tried, if you will, to get as much 210 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: distance between her and the central hub and an ending location. 211 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: You know, you begin to think about things, well, is 212 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: there a wooded area that she could have wandered off into. 213 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: If there is a wooded area, what kind of hazards 214 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 1: are in there? Are we're talking about that there's some 215 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: kind of gulture, you know, a cliff that she could 216 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,559 Speaker 1: have stepped off on. If she's in a rugged territory. 217 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: Is there a river or body of water nearby that 218 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: she could have wandered off into and became helpless and 219 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: maybe drowned in that location? Is there a major roadway 220 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: if she was disoriented and she walked out into the 221 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: roadway where somebody could have snatched her up, or even worse, 222 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 1: she could have been struck as a pedestrian. She's laying 223 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 1: dead on the side of the road. And you know, 224 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 1: to your point, Aint, you know, we talk a lot 225 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,319 Speaker 1: about these checklists that we that we kind of run 226 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: through in our mind. I've got to tell you, in 227 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 1: in my time as a death investigator, and when I 228 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 1: first started as a very young death investigator, we didn't 229 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,680 Speaker 1: have a bunch of checklists that you know, we could 230 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: download off of something. These things were literally handed down 231 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: to us verbally many times, and we would try to 232 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 1: codify them in some way and write them down. But 233 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: after a period of time, you begin to check these 234 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: things off in your brain as you're working these cases, 235 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: because you reflect back to earlier cases that you had handled, 236 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: and hopefully you don't do it every time, but hopefully 237 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: you're thinking back, you know, how did I screw up 238 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,079 Speaker 1: an earlier case, or what did I'm miss in an 239 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: earlier case where I can go back and try to 240 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,079 Speaker 1: do this one a little bit better. Now. They do 241 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: have checklists that will that they will run down, and 242 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: I've heard a couple of people say this kind of 243 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: a very interesting point. It's great to have a checklist, 244 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: but when you marry yourself to a checklist, there's a 245 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: certain amount of creativity that goes into an investigation, and 246 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: you kind of handicap yourself at that point in time 247 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 1: because you're doing this thing, as they say, by rote, 248 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 1: and you're not thinking outside the box at that point 249 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: in time, and that can be detrimental to the investigation 250 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: as well. You've got someone in your life that you 251 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: just absolutely dearly love. I cannot even begin to fathom, 252 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: fathom the depths of pain and anguish that an individual 253 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: goes through when you wake up and that person is 254 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: not there, and you think, what in the world am 255 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: I going to do? Who is there to help me? 256 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: Because I can only imagine that is probably as alone 257 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: as you will ever feel as a spouse. So with 258 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: that said, Jackie, you know that the search has got 259 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: to start somewhere, and you have got to call and 260 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: help at this point in time, and helped Paim. Joe 261 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: helped Aim in droves. Emily's family and Lye's friends started searching. 262 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: Now their home. There was a lot of wooded areas 263 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: around her home, so the thought was knowing that Emily 264 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: liked being out in nature. Her friends said she often 265 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: would take photos and that she liked to take an 266 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: early morning walk. So that was the first place that 267 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: her friends and family started looking, the nature areas surrounding 268 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: their home. They even brought in cadaver dogs, drones and 269 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: divers for those areas near them. Obviously they were looking 270 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: for a body or for her. What kind of clues 271 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: with these three things give you, Joe, Look, you introduced 272 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: canaan into this environment, and we all know that you 273 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: know when we see things, we're visualizing things. We kind 274 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: of have a visual spectrum that we work on where 275 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: we sense different types of light, shading, all those sorts 276 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: of things. And dogs, by their nature have great eyesight 277 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: there you know, their natural hunters. But if you think 278 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: their side is fantastic, you begin to think about and 279 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: I've worked with cadaver dogs before, you begin to think 280 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: about this kind of all factory spectrum that they have, 281 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: that that sense of smell. It is beyond anything that 282 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: we can actually fathom as humans and so and it's 283 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: very finely tuned. And these dogs. When you're talking about 284 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: a cadaver dog as opposed to say, for instance, a 285 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: tracking dog, we we have this old image of a 286 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: bluetick hound dog that they use and where prisoners have 287 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: escaped and they put these dogs on the trail. The 288 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: cadaver dog is specifically trained to go out and pick 289 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: up scent of of the dead because it dead have 290 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: a very specific odor that dog can pick up on. 291 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: And you know, and interestingly enough with you know, over 292 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: the years when I worked at the corners offices and 293 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: medical examiners offices, I worked forward in the past, you know, 294 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: cadaver dog trainers would actually come two our facility and 295 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: they would many times grab a rag with our permission, 296 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,919 Speaker 1: bring a rag with them that's uncontaminated, or an old sock, 297 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 1: and they would essentially sent that item with the scent 298 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: of the dead. It can come in a variety of choices. 299 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: Here you have the freshly dead to decompose, severely decomposed, 300 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: which we would have at the morgue, to something as 301 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 1: benign as skelptal remains, which you wouldn't think would have 302 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 1: a scent, but it does. And they would have samples 303 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 1: from each one of these and they would take these 304 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: dogs out and train them on this all factory spectrum, 305 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: if you will. And so it's quite fascinating to see 306 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 1: these animals work. And so I think again you get 307 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: when when an investigator is in the presence of a 308 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 1: cadaver dog, it can I think that on one level, 309 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 1: it can make you kind of lazy because you're you're 310 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: sitting there and you're thinking, well, if the dog doesn't 311 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 1: hit out here, then there's nothing to be found. Well, 312 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: as great as these dogs are, they don't always find 313 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: everything that there is out there. And you know, you 314 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: have to couple that with common sense as well the dog. 315 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: That the whole thing is not on the dog itself, 316 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: It's on how the handler manages the animal. And then 317 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: all of the peripheral people. Let's think about you know, 318 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: she had friends that were out there. There were there 319 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 1: were people that really loved this woman, cared about her 320 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: because she had cared for so many other people. And 321 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 1: so people that would go out day after day looking 322 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: for her because they all knew, you know, like we'd 323 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: said earlier, her her wallet, her keys, money, everything, We're 324 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 1: vehicles still there. Where could she have gone to? You know, 325 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: she just didn't you know, kind of ascend up in 326 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: the air and float off. She had to have left 327 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: that location very specifically, probably walking away or having been 328 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 1: walked away from that location. So you begin to look 329 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: at this and you know some of the other factors 330 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,360 Speaker 1: that come into play, Well, do you have a person 331 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: that tracks humans that's out there, that can look for 332 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: sign you know, things like cloth caught in trees, threads 333 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: reading sign of say, footprints, disturbed vegetation, which you would 334 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: look forward, things that are broken, things that are pressed away. 335 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: Because if you have somebody, let's just say you have 336 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 1: somebody that is in an altered state. That altered state 337 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 1: is going to impede their ability to find a standard 338 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: path to walk down. So they're gonna walk through overgrown 339 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: brush areas, and a person that's keen to this, that 340 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 1: can look at this, can understand, well, this area of 341 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,679 Speaker 1: vegetation has been penetrated by somebody or something. You can 342 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: see these broken branches, you can see the ground is 343 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: pressed down, all the vegetation is pressed down. They're gonna 344 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: be really keen to follow that and see that one 345 00:19:58,119 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: of the things that you're hoping is not going to 346 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: have up in those that you'll have a volunteer that 347 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: might walk through the same area and contaminate the area 348 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: or disrupted from its original pristine composition. You mentioned something 349 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: that I found absolutely fascinating in talking about the cadaver dogs. 350 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: They can smell bones even when there is no organic 351 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 1: matter remaining. Well, yeah, and you know bone itself is 352 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 1: in fact organic. But kind of what you will have 353 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: the problem is we're influenced so much by my media. 354 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 1: You know, the things that we see on television, all 355 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 1: the sorts of things that you think. You know, people 356 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: when they think skeleton or skeletonized remains, they see some 357 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:44,439 Speaker 1: whitewashed collection of bones that have been created on a 358 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 1: set somewhere. That's not the reality these bones are going 359 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 1: to be. First off, unless they're sitting out in the 360 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 1: desert somewhere, they're not gonna be bleached white. They're going 361 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: to have kind of a yellow appearance to them. And 362 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 1: there will still be remnant of tissue that's left behind, 363 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: but that eminitive tissue is not going to be as 364 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: robust as it would have been in the earlier stage. 365 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: And here's another thing that occurs with skeletal remains is 366 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: that as bodies are left out in nature and you 367 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,399 Speaker 1: have all of the local fauna, which you know, we 368 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: when we're talking about forensic biology talking about flora and fauna, 369 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: flora being the plants and in fauna being the local 370 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: animal kingdom that inhabits that particular area. The fauna, whether 371 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: it's raccoons or possums, or even squirrels, yes, squirrels, or 372 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: certainly dogs or hogs. If you live in an area 373 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: where there's wild hogs, they will root around bodies and 374 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: they will drag things off. So many times you can 375 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: take a cadaver dog out in these areas and they 376 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: will have multiple hits on decomposing remains, even if it 377 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: is bone, because these animals will take them to their 378 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: burrows and place them in these locations. So you're getting hits, 379 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: multiple hits all over the place, as opposed to say 380 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: something thing that is what's referred to as concentrically located. 381 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 1: We've heard the term eccentrically well. As the body has 382 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: essentially taken apart, these uh, these remains become eccentric to 383 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: the initial location, the primary scene, and so you'll have 384 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: them dispersed all over the place, and this can be 385 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: very very confusing. That's why it's very important as to 386 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 1: when you find those elements that are separate from what 387 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 1: you believe is the primary scene, you mark those elements 388 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: and you secure them in place, and that does first off, 389 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: it helps you as you begin to document the location 390 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: of that gives you an idea. You can look at 391 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: it and you know you can kind of surmise what 392 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 1: had happened. Is this a post mortem event? Is is is 393 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: something where you have a remain, skeletal remain an element. 394 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: Let's say for instance, it's a a vertebral body, a 395 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 1: bone from the spine, where an animal is taken at 396 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: that location, maybe buried it or maybe simply nod on 397 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: it and then walked away and left that behind. Or 398 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 1: is there something more sinister even than that, where you 399 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: have somebody that has, say, for instance, dismembered the body 400 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 1: and left that portion there. It may have never been 401 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 1: touched by an animal, but you document in that location. 402 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: And animal behaviorists also look at these kinds of things 403 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: to see what locations these animals trapes off with. And 404 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: if you have say two competing animal groups, they're not 405 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,360 Speaker 1: necessarily going to go in the same location with that 406 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,959 Speaker 1: remain that they find. You can even see this behavior 407 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: in dogs. If you have a bunch of dogs around 408 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,719 Speaker 1: and you give elements for them to chew on and 409 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: that sort of thing, they're going to take them off 410 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,439 Speaker 1: in different directions many times because that is there. As 411 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,239 Speaker 1: they possess that thing, they're going to take it off. 412 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: It's no different with human remains. They do the same. 413 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: You'll see the same behavior. And particularly in the animal kingdom, 414 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: there's a there's a pecking order. That's why they talk 415 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: about animals that are out there like bears and alligators 416 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: and all there's things that are apex predators. Well, smaller 417 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 1: animals don't want anything to do with the bigger animals. 418 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 1: They want to take that little piece they have and 419 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: go to their location. So those are some of the 420 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: things that you begin to look for out in this environment. 421 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 1: A couple of months went by, and the investigation into 422 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: Emily Noble's disappearance continues. But then, as Nancy would say, 423 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 1: a twist, a group of Emily's friends were out searching. 424 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: What did they find? Joe, we're talking four months for 425 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: count four months down range since her birthday. You began 426 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: to to look at this and her friends had have 427 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 1: been searching high and low for her, had not been 428 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: able to find her. I'm sure that they're just broken hearted, 429 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 1: But what what Before I'd dig too deep into this. 430 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 1: Just understand what these friends have been doing. They have 431 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 1: stayed committed through this entire exercise. You know, it is 432 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 1: real easy for people say, yeah, we're going to gather 433 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: together and go look for somebody, but you're still doing 434 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,160 Speaker 1: it four months down range. That gives you an idea 435 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: as to how much they loved four months four months. 436 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: They they just didn't quit. They just kept on. And 437 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: what is so striking about this is that when these 438 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: four friends were purposefully out looking for their friend. They 439 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,880 Speaker 1: were out there with purpose to find her, they did, 440 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 1: you know, being the death investigator by trade, it wasn't 441 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,959 Speaker 1: me that generally found bodies. I think maybe in the 442 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 1: entire course of my career I found actually found maybe 443 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: three bodies. You're the one that has always summoned out 444 00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: after the body has been found. And I've always wondered 445 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 1: about a civilian that's out wandering about, particularly an individual 446 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,439 Speaker 1: it might be vested, and they come across a body. 447 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 1: It's got to be one of the most shocking things 448 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: that anyone could be subjected to. It would have to 449 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: be a horrifying experience, especially to find your friend in 450 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: the position and the state that the body was in. 451 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: As Emily's friends were out searching, they came across a 452 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: decomposing body that was found in a kneeling position near 453 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: a tree, and there was a rope what appeared to 454 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: be a rope suspended from the tree. It actually turned 455 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 1: out that it was a USB cord around Emily's neck. 456 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: They had to use dental records to identify Emily Noble. Yeah, 457 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: you're talking four months down range, as I'd previously mentioned, 458 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: and during that period of tom and in this environment. 459 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 1: Remember we've gone through the entire summer here. Remember let's 460 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 1: let's reflect back just for a second. She went missing 461 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: back in May, al right. She was not found until September. 462 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: So regardless of what geographic location you may live in 463 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 1: in our country, in the United States, temperatures are going 464 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: to begin to rise, you know, going into well, starting 465 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: in April, they begin to rise and and then you 466 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 1: know they'll gradually fall off. But with heat, with heat, 467 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:33,439 Speaker 1: as we've previously discussed on body bags, with heat comes 468 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: more rapid decomposition. The colder it is, the slower decomposition is, 469 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,439 Speaker 1: the hotter it is, quicker it happens. And the fact 470 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 1: that they were able to find her body still intact, 471 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: and to say that the body is intact is in 472 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: air quotes here because it's it's one of the most 473 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 1: bizarre things I've heard of in some time. They did 474 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: find her remains there, and this is not like you 475 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 1: can walk up to Emily's mortal remains and say, yeah, 476 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: that's Emily, all right. I've never been a fan of that. 477 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 1: I'm not a fan of showing families bodies. You know, 478 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: the old idea where you pull the sheet back and 479 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 1: they look at the Fay said, yeah, that's my loved one. 480 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 1: I like scientific verification. And as you had mentioned Jackie 481 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: just a moment ago, they did use dental anti mortem 482 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: dental records. You know, you have to track down to 483 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: dentist because you you suspect that it might be her, 484 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: But you have to have a forensic odentologist who is 485 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 1: a forensic dentist that will come in and actually do 486 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: a dental chart. Just think about going to your dentist 487 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: and the dentist charting your teeth in life. Forensic odentologists, 488 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: though many times they're known for bite mark examination, where 489 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: they really make the money is identifying bodies because the 490 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: teeth are so static, you know they're there. It's not 491 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: like other things in the body. It's as accurate as 492 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: you can be without getting into the area of DNA, 493 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: which they eventually did with Emily. But you can pair 494 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: the anti mortem which means prior to death, with post 495 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: mortem dental charting. So you're looking for missing teeth which 496 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: may have been missing in life. Say if somebody had 497 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: had I'm giving an example, if someone has had their 498 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: wisdom teeth extracted in life. Well, if you come across 499 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: a body and they still have their wisdom teeth. Automatically, 500 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: that person doesn't qualify that chart that you have. That 501 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: you suspect that it might be that person is out 502 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: of the bedding at that point in time. But if 503 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: if you see that their wisdom teeth are missing in 504 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 1: the anti mortem chart that you have indicates those wisdom teeth, 505 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,239 Speaker 1: that's one box you can check. And then you go 506 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: and look at fillings to see what teeth are filled. 507 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: Did she have any cavitations and her teeth, did she 508 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: have any replacements? Was there a bridge there? Did she 509 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: have caps on her teeth? You know some people will 510 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 1: get porcelain caps covering their teeth, crowns, those sorts of things, 511 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: any kind of manifestations. Teeth are absolutely fascinating in this 512 00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: sense as for their utility to identify body and not 513 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 1: just that but the position of teeth, because teeth they 514 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: have multiple planes of identification. It's it's the basis why 515 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 1: people get correct if things done to their teeth all 516 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 1: the time. You know, when where kids, people get braces 517 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:16,959 Speaker 1: placed on the teeth, because teeth will rotate, you know 518 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: along the compass phase three six degrees along those points 519 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: they can rotate in any number of degrees, and people 520 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: want to get them shifted back so that they look 521 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: quote unquote normal, you know, whatever that means relative to teeth. 522 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: So they can be pitched forward, pitched back, that can 523 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: pitch sideways, and they can rotate. So those are unique 524 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: to each individual. And so what makes it even more 525 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: unique is that there are thirty two teeth in the 526 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: adult mouth. So it's that's what makes it so fascinating 527 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: when you begin to do the math on this, that 528 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: the opportunity becomes exponential in order to identify. So that's 529 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 1: why they rely upon this. But once they got her identified, 530 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 1: because you could not look at her body and say 531 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 1: that that is in fact her, then the assessment begins to, 532 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 1: well what actually happened to her? You talk about this 533 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: ligature that was found in place around her neck or 534 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: her neck area. You know, at first, I'm sure that 535 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: they thought that it probably was a rope or some 536 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: kind of cord. Turned out to be a USB chord, 537 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: which is not something that's very robust, you know, you 538 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: think about, I mean, how how many of us out 539 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: there have had to replace the USB chord because it 540 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: just craps out on so you can't use any longer 541 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: it becomes fraid or fragile. That sort of thing a 542 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 1: USB chord is going to be used in order to 543 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,719 Speaker 1: hang yourself with, because that's what they were saying. They 544 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: were saying that this appeared to be at first a suicide, 545 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: and the fact that she was down for this period 546 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: of time and in a knee position when she was 547 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 1: found fully closed, her skeletal remains were still intact. Jackie, 548 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: this is mind blowing, in a kneeling position beneath this 549 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 1: tree with this USB cord around her neck and then 550 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 1: anchor to the tree somehow the authorities had not been 551 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: very specific about it, but this was entirely supporting her 552 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: weight at this moment in time. And you want to 553 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: know something else, what's really fascinating about this. She had 554 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: decomposed so much, huh that when they got her remains 555 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: back to the coroner's office, her total her total body 556 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: weight including clothing was nineteen pounds nineteen pounds, but yet 557 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: the body had remained intact, which is absolutely fascinating to 558 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: me in this case. There's so much about this case fascinating. 559 00:32:54,600 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 1: I am in tree fascinated and perplexed by the fact 560 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: that her body was in unneeling position and remained there. Now, 561 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: looking at the USB cord, I have never seen a 562 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: USB cord longer than ten ft. So if she's in 563 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 1: a nneeling position, and if it's a ten ft you know, 564 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,479 Speaker 1: a USB cord that's only ten ft, then you're looking 565 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: at a tree branch that's really not very by off 566 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: the ground. So most people, when you think of hanging yourself, 567 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: you think, Okay, my feet doesn't touch the ground, So 568 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: how is that possible? Yeah, that's a that's a fallacy 569 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: that people are suspended. Let's go ahead and eradicate that 570 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: to begin with. That's that's not um, that's untrue. As 571 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, I've had probably more people that 572 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: are not totally suspended as opposed to having been suspended 573 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: that man. When I say suspended, I mean their feet 574 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 1: are not on the floor at all, that their body 575 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: essentially is floating in air. Again, we're at the mercy 576 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: of the entertainment world because that's how it's portrayed. That's 577 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: very dramatic, isn't it When you think about you know, 578 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: how many times have we seen a movie where a 579 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: person opens the door and there's two ft dangling in 580 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 1: the air. That's just not the case. I've when we 581 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 1: begin to think about the length of the ligature. You 582 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: talked about the USB cord. You haven't seen one. It's 583 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 1: longer than than ten ft. You know, you can go 584 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: into a truck stop. I think about this in trips 585 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: I take. You can go in the truck stop and 586 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 1: get a replacement USB cord. And you're right, they are 587 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 1: very long. You know. You plug it in the in 588 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 1: the charger in the front of the car and you 589 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 1: can hand it over you over your shoulder to your 590 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 1: kids in the backseat because they're complaining they can't charge 591 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,839 Speaker 1: their phone. And yeah, that that's that's the greatest length. 592 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: But you don't really need that much. I've actually had 593 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: people that have hung themselves with hair dryer cords where 594 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: the hair dryer, the actual body of the hair dryer, 595 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 1: is hanging beneath the neck. It doesn't require much. But 596 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 1: people do not need to be and just hear me right, 597 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 1: do not need to be suspended in order to hang themselves. 598 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: They can be. I've had them in a kneeling position. 599 00:34:58,080 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: I've had them in the seat at position as well. 600 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 1: How does your fight or flight instinct if you are 601 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: trying to hang yourself, not go a wait a minute, 602 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: I don't want to do this. If you are able 603 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 1: to touch the ground and save yourself, how do you 604 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 1: keep from doing that. I've I've always been fascinated by this, 605 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 1: and I think that a lot of it has to 606 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: do not with the occlusion of the airway, that is, 607 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: where the airway is being blocked, where it's clamping down, 608 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: because you know, you begin to think about, well, I mean, 609 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: any of us that have been in an environment where 610 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: we lose our breath. Say, when you're a kid and 611 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: you're you know, there's an old game people would play 612 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,280 Speaker 1: a pigpile. You know, everybody piles on top of one another, 613 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 1: and you're gasping for air and you're fighting because you 614 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: can't breathe. It's not say mechanism, it's not the same 615 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,320 Speaker 1: mechanism at all. Remember when you're talking about a literature. 616 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: The airway, yeah, is compromised to a great degree. But 617 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 1: the other thing that is even more compromised, it's more 618 00:35:54,719 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: greatly compromised, is your blood flow. What happens when those 619 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,800 Speaker 1: areas are blocked. You know, you've got your crotted vessels 620 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 1: that are supplying your brain with oxygen eated blood. Well, 621 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 1: I'll tell you what happens. There's a sleepiness that sets in. 622 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 1: There's a sleepiness that sets in, and people will set 623 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,840 Speaker 1: themselves in these positions and slowly sink to the floor. 624 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 1: There's a lack of oxygen saturation going to the brain. Okay, visa, 625 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 1: be the blood, not not the airway. The airway is 626 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: the uptake, you know, and you're supplying through your lungs, 627 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:34,359 Speaker 1: and no, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking 628 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,320 Speaker 1: about oxygen eated blood making its way to the brain. 629 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 1: You having a noxic event where the flow of oxygenated 630 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:44,880 Speaker 1: blood is being shut down to the brain and people 631 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:46,799 Speaker 1: become sleepy at that point in time. That's the only 632 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: way I've ever been able to explain this, because it's 633 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 1: fascinating to me when I see someone that is not 634 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 1: totally suspended. They're either sitting on their back side or 635 00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 1: on their knees and they've hung themselves this way. You know, 636 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: we have this with with auto erotic cases many times 637 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: where people will hang themselves intentionally and it's ruled, of 638 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 1: course that was are ruled as accidental death, and it 639 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: is because the blood flow has been cut off to 640 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: the brain, not the oxygen itself, not the airway, and 641 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 1: the airway if you're being smothered or choked or something 642 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,319 Speaker 1: like that, that does initiate that fight or flight. When 643 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: we look at the injuries that in linked Noble add 644 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 1: we find that she was strangled, yet she also had 645 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: some severe injuries to her face and neck. Yeah, we do. 646 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 1: And that that is what has a led authorities to 647 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: begin to question as to whether or not this case 648 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 1: was in fact a suicide. And they've come to the 649 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 1: conclusion that Emily's death was actually a staged suicide. That 650 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 1: means it is something that is made to look as 651 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: though this was a hanging, a self inflicted hanging, as 652 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: opposed to something much more nefarious and dark. And let 653 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 1: me give you the evidence that I have for this. 654 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 1: If you think about the base of your tongue, and 655 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:12,799 Speaker 1: how many times have we talked about this, you know, 656 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:17,319 Speaker 1: over our time together, Jack, not just a body back. Yeah, yeah, 657 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: that's what we're gonna talk about. The highoid bone sits 658 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 1: so high up in the neck. And again I'll refresh 659 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 1: everybody that doesn't remember, the highoid bone is not only 660 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 1: non articulated bone in the human body. That means it's 661 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,240 Speaker 1: not connected to any other bone, and it it's sole 662 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: purpose is to anchor the tongue in the back of 663 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: the throat. You begin to think about how high up 664 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,319 Speaker 1: in your throat the back of your tongue is. It 665 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 1: doesn't go all the way down, you know, all the 666 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:44,920 Speaker 1: way down your throat. It's anchored in the back, and 667 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,399 Speaker 1: it's anchored by the high woid, very very high up. 668 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,359 Speaker 1: So you begin to couple that and you look at 669 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 1: the diameter, which is I don't know, corvin inch, maybe 670 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 1: for a USB cord. How's the USB cord going to break? 671 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 1: It would have to be so high, and you would 672 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:02,840 Speaker 1: have to fall with such force, and it would have 673 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: to be specifically targeted. And here's the thing about her fractures. 674 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: And I say fracture. Notice I say fractures plural. The 675 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 1: highoid bone is shaped like a horse shoe or some 676 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,920 Speaker 1: people say you'll hear for pathologists talk about it as 677 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,759 Speaker 1: a bird like structure. That means it's got wings. You've 678 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: got the left greater horn and the right greater horn, 679 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,440 Speaker 1: which are the the end tips of this thing. Okay, Like, 680 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,720 Speaker 1: just think about the tips of the wings of a bird. 681 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 1: All right, both of those both of those wings in 682 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 1: Emily's case, are fractured. You know what that requires. That 683 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 1: requires a specific targeted pressure to those areas for a 684 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,799 Speaker 1: sustained period of time. The only way you achieve that 685 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,719 Speaker 1: is by either a sea clamp or a throttling. Sea 686 00:39:57,719 --> 00:39:59,840 Speaker 1: clamp is a single hand that goes up high on 687 00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:02,600 Speaker 1: the neck and you begin to squeeze down like you're 688 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 1: squeezing an orange, or throttling where you've got your thumbs 689 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:10,280 Speaker 1: crossed over and that kind of classic theatrical choking somebody 690 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 1: out and you're high up on the neck and you're squeezing. 691 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:20,400 Speaker 1: But not only was Emily's high woid fractured in multiple locations, 692 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,880 Speaker 1: but also her thyroid cartilage, which sits inferior, which is 693 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:29,400 Speaker 1: just a fancy word for below below the high woid. 694 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 1: It's a cartilaginous body that kind of contains you know, 695 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 1: where our airway is and everything. It was fractured as well. 696 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 1: So you've got cartilage that was fractured. That's how much 697 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 1: pressure was applied. You're not just talking about a bone, 698 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: which we think about fracturing with bones. We don't think 699 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 1: about cartilage being fractured. In her case, her thyroid cartilage 700 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:55,279 Speaker 1: was actually fractured, was fractured and snapped along the way. 701 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 1: There's evidence that she's got damage to her maxilla. If 702 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,800 Speaker 1: everybody will ascense, really take their index finger and touch 703 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,879 Speaker 1: above their upper teeth that hard area where you're your 704 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:10,279 Speaker 1: teeth are implanted, are set. That's your that's your maxilla. 705 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,840 Speaker 1: That's the hard pallette up there that was damaged as well. 706 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 1: You say, well, how are those two things associated well? 707 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 1: In in my opinion, if you get trauma to the 708 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 1: maxillary area, that's submission, that's you're going to submit. You're 709 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,840 Speaker 1: putting your hand forcefully over their mouth, for instance, or 710 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 1: you're punching them in that area, and you're directly causing 711 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,840 Speaker 1: trauma to that hard area above their upper teeth to 712 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,880 Speaker 1: get them to submit. And then a hand or some 713 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:46,240 Speaker 1: other item that you can direct force with this placed 714 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,239 Speaker 1: over their throat that you know, and she's she's not 715 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 1: a very large woman. She's very delicate looking, you know 716 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,360 Speaker 1: in life you see her, she's very slightly built. It 717 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,880 Speaker 1: wouldn't take much and you begin to apply that direct pressure, 718 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:02,040 Speaker 1: you begin to squeeze like that, and essentially what happened 719 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:06,239 Speaker 1: is that the highway was fractured during all of this 720 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,680 Speaker 1: which led to her death. And also her airway at 721 00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,040 Speaker 1: the top end was compromised because the thyroid cord lets 722 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,480 Speaker 1: was fractured. No, no, no, no, wait a minute, let 723 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,280 Speaker 1: me play Devil's advocate for just a second. Could those 724 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,440 Speaker 1: injuries have happened after her death if she was suspended 725 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:27,160 Speaker 1: by this USP chord? Could that have happened as her 726 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:32,440 Speaker 1: body decomposed and it changed the angle of how her 727 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:36,480 Speaker 1: body was resting. I might agree with you if if 728 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,319 Speaker 1: if we said that the USB cord was overlying one 729 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:46,080 Speaker 1: specific area and it gave way the structural continuity, just 730 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,479 Speaker 1: it gave into this this time that her body spent 731 00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:54,839 Speaker 1: spent decomposing the two specific areas. You're talking about a 732 00:42:54,880 --> 00:43:00,800 Speaker 1: bone that's very isolated and with two bony dominances that 733 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,680 Speaker 1: are several that are probably two to three inches in 734 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,960 Speaker 1: width apart. Well, let's just say an inch and a 735 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:11,239 Speaker 1: half to two inches, and both of those features of 736 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,799 Speaker 1: that singular bone were fractured. I find that highly unlikely. 737 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,120 Speaker 1: It would tell me and that you had to have 738 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:23,440 Speaker 1: direct pressure applied for a protracted period of time, and 739 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,120 Speaker 1: it would have to be an increasing pressure to get 740 00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 1: these this this bone and these two separate locations anatomically 741 00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:34,440 Speaker 1: to snap that. That's what would have to take place. 742 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,880 Speaker 1: And one of the things that we look for with 743 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:42,160 Speaker 1: and I'm going to kind of tell everybody, you know, 744 00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:46,560 Speaker 1: kind of how we differentiate between a stage suicide and 745 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:50,040 Speaker 1: a real suicide. When you're looking at a literature that 746 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,640 Speaker 1: is around somebody's neck that has been used to kill 747 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:57,200 Speaker 1: themselves with a noose, if you will, because of the suspension, 748 00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,720 Speaker 1: because of the weight of the body, the body hanging 749 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,759 Speaker 1: down down, and it's being supported by this news on 750 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:08,440 Speaker 1: the exterior of the neck, say, the tissue that's left behind. 751 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:13,480 Speaker 1: You'll have this interesting feature that will present itself. That's 752 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:17,680 Speaker 1: called tinting. And I like the tinting on your car windows, 753 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,680 Speaker 1: tinting like we're going tinting tonight, like pup tent t 754 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:25,760 Speaker 1: E N T I n G tinting feature that literally 755 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,920 Speaker 1: travels upward in an acute angle so that the news 756 00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,440 Speaker 1: forms kind of the top of the pup tent at 757 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:34,920 Speaker 1: the back side of the head. And so you'll have 758 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,360 Speaker 1: this deep furrow. And remember usb cord is not very robust, 759 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,480 Speaker 1: it's very very thin. So the rule of thumb for 760 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,880 Speaker 1: us as death investigators, the more narrow the literature, the 761 00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:51,280 Speaker 1: deeper the furrow because you've got a smaller surface area 762 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 1: to support the body weight. So if someone used, say, 763 00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,240 Speaker 1: for instance, a belt, say a three h wide belt, 764 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,680 Speaker 1: the furrow is going to be allow. Okay, it's not 765 00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,560 Speaker 1: gonna be real deep because you've got that wide surface 766 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,200 Speaker 1: area to support the body weight with the USB cord. However, 767 00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:10,520 Speaker 1: it's going to dig in. It will be very very deep. Now, 768 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 1: if a person has been hanging for a protracted period 769 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:20,560 Speaker 1: of time, they'll have this tinting feature. However, if there 770 00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,799 Speaker 1: if there was other pressure that was applied below that, 771 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,120 Speaker 1: say like a broad area where you have hemorrhage that's 772 00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:33,160 Speaker 1: not running say acutely upward, that's associated with the tinting feature. 773 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,840 Speaker 1: But yet you have hemorrhage that's running kind of parallel 774 00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:38,960 Speaker 1: to the shoulders, which is going straight back in the 775 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,360 Speaker 1: soft tissues of the neck. That's an indication that someone 776 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:46,680 Speaker 1: has applied direct pressure downward as opposed to acutely upward. 777 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,480 Speaker 1: In the pattern would not would not match. And so 778 00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,160 Speaker 1: you've got these these two things that are staring at you. 779 00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,080 Speaker 1: You're trying to make heads or tails of and that's 780 00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,480 Speaker 1: one of the big indicators that we look for specifically 781 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:01,120 Speaker 1: in this area. There are other things you look for 782 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:03,880 Speaker 1: in stage suicide, but specifically in this area, this is 783 00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:05,839 Speaker 1: one of the things that you look for to try 784 00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:08,880 Speaker 1: to determine if an event was staged or not. One 785 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,720 Speaker 1: of the other issues, joe that came up in looking 786 00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:16,520 Speaker 1: at this being staged. Let me say now that Emily's husband, 787 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:22,879 Speaker 1: Matthew Moore was arrested and charged with Emily's death, and 788 00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:27,120 Speaker 1: one of the facts that came into play was that 789 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:34,680 Speaker 1: Moore's son Joey, committed suicide be hun himself. Yeah, and 790 00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:38,200 Speaker 1: that you know, certainly as an investigator that you have 791 00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,440 Speaker 1: to look into that. Okay, that's something you're gonna have 792 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:46,360 Speaker 1: to dig into because once you you have an individual 793 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:50,600 Speaker 1: in a family and listen, understand this very important point here, 794 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:56,200 Speaker 1: many times you will have copycat events in families where 795 00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:00,319 Speaker 1: they're suicide or history of suicide. People will and this 796 00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,160 Speaker 1: this happened in their family, and then they'll fall suit. Okay, 797 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,120 Speaker 1: and I think that that's the first thing you're going 798 00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:08,319 Speaker 1: to check off, you know, check off the list who're 799 00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:10,040 Speaker 1: gonna look at this and say, well, is there any 800 00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,680 Speaker 1: indication here? You have to explore that as an investigator, 801 00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:15,960 Speaker 1: you have to look into that and say, well, is 802 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,960 Speaker 1: there any similarity here between what has happened to Emily 803 00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:25,120 Speaker 1: and compare that with what happened to Matt's son, Joey, 804 00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:28,920 Speaker 1: you know, many months before when when he died, and 805 00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:32,080 Speaker 1: you know, according to the press, you know Joey had 806 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,520 Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of um psychological illness that he was 807 00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:39,480 Speaker 1: dealing with. And you know what kind of really makes 808 00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,759 Speaker 1: this quite quite sad is the fact that Emily loved 809 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,680 Speaker 1: this kid. He became part of her family. From what 810 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:50,640 Speaker 1: we are understanding, Emily took over quite a bit of 811 00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:53,799 Speaker 1: the parental role in Joey's life. I mean, he was 812 00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:58,960 Speaker 1: really debilitated psychologically, and she would tend to him, she 813 00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:02,920 Speaker 1: would why much after him, and really apparently loved him deeply. 814 00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:06,480 Speaker 1: And so you could see how his death would impact someone. 815 00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:09,080 Speaker 1: And not only that, but you begin to look at 816 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:13,360 Speaker 1: Emily's history as well, and you know that her first husband, 817 00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,839 Speaker 1: who people have stated that she regarded as the love 818 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,279 Speaker 1: of her life, he had taken his life. There are 819 00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:21,360 Speaker 1: not a lot of specifics as to how that first 820 00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,320 Speaker 1: husband you know, took his life, but she her life's 821 00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,360 Speaker 1: been touched. I mean it's certainly been touched by suicide 822 00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:29,720 Speaker 1: like many of us you know that are out there 823 00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,920 Speaker 1: in public, but in hers in particular to people that 824 00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,680 Speaker 1: she truly cared for, had lost her life. And as investigators, 825 00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:40,280 Speaker 1: as unpleasant as it is, you have to exhaust every 826 00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:42,640 Speaker 1: possibility because at the end of the day, you want 827 00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:46,160 Speaker 1: to look at these cases and make sure that not 828 00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,960 Speaker 1: only are they thoroughly investigated, but if there is evidence, 829 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:55,040 Speaker 1: they are thoroughly prosecuted as well. Matthew Moore has been 830 00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:59,239 Speaker 1: arrested and charged with Emily's death, although let us do 831 00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,160 Speaker 1: point out this case has not yet been adjudicated, and 832 00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:09,480 Speaker 1: everyone who is innocent until proven guilty. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, 833 00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,040 Speaker 1: and this is body Backs