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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called

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Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer Paul.

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Speaker 1: Mission Control deconds. Most importantly, you are you, You are here,

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Speaker 1: and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 1: We're beginning today's episode with a disclaimer. Our discussion today

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Speaker 1: contains descriptions of violence against children, and as such, it

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Speaker 1: may not be suitable for all listeners. Today we're examining war.

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Speaker 1: It's one of humanity's continual curses. It's a shadow that's

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Speaker 1: follow lowed this species for the entirety of its existence,

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Speaker 1: possibly before you know. War may predate Homo sapiens. And

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Speaker 1: we're just talking about group armed conflict. The first war

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Speaker 1: that is that is like acknowledged universally occurs in Mesopotamia

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Speaker 1: in b c. E. And since then, some kind of

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Speaker 1: conflict has occurred in every single era of history on

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Speaker 1: every part of the populated globe. It continues today. It's

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Speaker 1: a horrific thing. We know, we have people in the

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Speaker 1: audience listening with us today who have experienced the horrors

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Speaker 1: of armed conflict firsthand. And today we're focusing on something

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Speaker 1: that often doesn't get examined as much as it should,

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Speaker 1: or often gets examined through a Western slant. And that's Uh,

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Speaker 1: that's children and conflict, not as by standards, not as

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Speaker 1: innocence in the background, but as soldiers. So here are

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Speaker 1: the facts. So what exactly is the child soldier? I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty much what it sounds like. Technically, it's a soldier, uh,

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Speaker 1: I mean. So it's also like the term soldier makes

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Speaker 1: it a little misleading because oftentimes they are part of

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Speaker 1: guerrilla groups. Um, they're not like exactly going through the

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Speaker 1: proper channels of like training in the way like a

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Speaker 1: US military member might. But it's a soldier anyone who

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Speaker 1: is under the age of eighteen who is quote recruited

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Speaker 1: or used by an armed force or armed group in

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Speaker 1: any capacity. So this is like a wide swath here. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And this doesn't just mean direct fighting. They can also

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Speaker 1: be used in other roles, as you know, careers, spies,

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Speaker 1: human shields, uh, suicide bombers, or even cooks, like actually

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Speaker 1: just helping kind of the logistical day to day of

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Speaker 1: like keeping up an armed force. Um, and they can

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Speaker 1: and oftentimes are victims of sexual exploitation. Yeah, it's true.

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Speaker 1: I just want to jump in really quickly to talk

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Speaker 1: about a couple of the roles. One of the big

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Speaker 1: things that we learned about was in the Revolutionary War

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Speaker 1: and wars passed when drums were used very commonly on

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Speaker 1: battlefields by varying armies as a way to communicate things

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Speaker 1: at far distances. So a commander would communicate something to

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Speaker 1: a drummer, and it would usually be a child. A

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Speaker 1: lot of times it would be a child, not always

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Speaker 1: who would then communicate that across a battlefield. And those

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Speaker 1: children weren't fighting necessarily, but they were no less in

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Speaker 1: danger than anyone who was wielding a gun, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and they're There are numerous other support roles, such as

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Speaker 1: porters just carrying stuff, often because you are threatened with

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Speaker 1: physical injury or death if you do not. You want

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Speaker 1: to say, obviously the uh. You know, people in the

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Speaker 1: audience are thinking the same thing that the use of

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Speaker 1: drums to organize large groups of people over areas, especially

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Speaker 1: during conflict is by no means restricted to the Revolutionary War.

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Speaker 1: Drum communication is itself um an ancient art of communication

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Speaker 1: that I think was didn't originate with the World militaries,

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Speaker 1: but was what was adopted by world militaries because it

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Speaker 1: is so efficient. It's also it's also part of the

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Speaker 1: reason why in the era of chattel slavery in the

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Speaker 1: United States, drums were often forbidden possessions because enslaved people

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Speaker 1: could use them to communicate over distance. So it's it's

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Speaker 1: a powerful thing. And I know it's a tangent, but

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Speaker 1: but it is a powerful thing. No, it is. That's

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Speaker 1: a really good point. But it also makes me think

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Speaker 1: of like you know, as far back as like you know,

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Speaker 1: Roman militaries or they would create these crazy formations and

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Speaker 1: these failanxes and drums would often be used to indicate

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Speaker 1: which formation they should assume. And one thing I love

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Speaker 1: about the Revolutionary War example there that you bring up, Matt,

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Speaker 1: is that it gives lie to the stereotypes that are

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Speaker 1: implied in much of Western media. Uh. You know, the

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Speaker 1: practice of forcing children into calm bat in some capacity

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Speaker 1: is not restricted to any particular region or country, nor time.

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Speaker 1: Children are as we speak recruited in areas across the

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Speaker 1: world by armed non state actors, by which I mean

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Speaker 1: groups outside of government control, as well as by state

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Speaker 1: supported armed forces. The non state armed groups are, it

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Speaker 1: is important to know, are more likely than state supported

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Speaker 1: groups to use children in direct armed conflict. When we

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Speaker 1: say non state groups, we mean things like militia's, terrorist organizations,

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Speaker 1: secessionist groups, and so on. And right now, you know

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Speaker 1: it is proven that this stuff is happening as we

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Speaker 1: record this, as you listen today. But the next question

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Speaker 1: is how many child soldiers exist? And if you you

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Speaker 1: can already see how the definition goes beyond direct armed conflict. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it's very difficult to get a good estimate of how

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Speaker 1: many how many children are victimized in this way, yes,

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Speaker 1: And and estimates on the number of child soldiers out

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Speaker 1: there in the world really does vary depends on the definition. Really,

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Speaker 1: That's that's what we're talking about here. If we only

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Speaker 1: count children in direct combat, that's one thing. If we

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Speaker 1: include any kind of supporting roles, that's another thing. Also,

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Speaker 1: it's awfully difficult to get true numbers out of from

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Speaker 1: a lot of places, and to get militaries to actually

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Speaker 1: tell you the numbers of children that are at play here.

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Speaker 1: But there's many as two D and fifty thousand child

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Speaker 1: soldiers right now in at least twenty countries. That's a

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Speaker 1: staggering number. Two U fifty thousand. That's a higher end

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Speaker 1: estiment to that's that's one of the ones that includes

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Speaker 1: support roles. I believe it is. If you look back

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Speaker 1: and throughout history, you'll you can find reports that during

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Speaker 1: the World War One conflict, the the First Great War,

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Speaker 1: there were around two and fifty thousand child soldiers, allegedly

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Speaker 1: a part of Europe's armies, like the Western armies. And

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Speaker 1: it's just to think that that many children are still

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Speaker 1: somehow being forced into one of these roles, or sometimes

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Speaker 1: not forced, but almost always forced. Have either of you

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Speaker 1: guys seen the movie from two thousand fifteen called The

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Speaker 1: Beasts of No Nation? Yes, I actually haven't seen it.

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Speaker 1: I really love the director, Carrie Fukanaga, but I know

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Speaker 1: it's about uh, like training a child, like an orphan,

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Speaker 1: as a child soldier in Africa, um during a conflict,

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Speaker 1: they're like with a warlord kind of situation, which is

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Speaker 1: kind of why I was saying, like it's such a

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Speaker 1: wide swath because it is obviously exploitation and oftentimes it's

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Speaker 1: like an opportunity for these kids to like have some

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Speaker 1: kind of support and some kind of community at the

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Speaker 1: cost of absolutely being exploited. UM. You you can speak

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Speaker 1: to the film more, Ben, since you've actually seen it.

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Speaker 1: But I know did really well and it it was

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Speaker 1: pretty beloved and it's supposed to be a bit of

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Speaker 1: a serious um you know, hits you right in the

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Speaker 1: fields kind of situation. And we will explore recruitment processes. Uh,

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Speaker 1: indoctrination is a better word, I believe, And how how

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Speaker 1: this takes place. If we look at the wide margin

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Speaker 1: of estimations, we see one of the lower end ones

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Speaker 1: is the u in verification of certain cases, so you

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Speaker 1: and verification is corroborated, it's proven, you know that we

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Speaker 1: have identified the specific individual and we have identified what

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Speaker 1: happened to them when and how, And in that regard,

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Speaker 1: they verify thirty thousand cases. That's and still even by

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Speaker 1: that metric, which is very UM has a lot of constraints.

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Speaker 1: That the number of child soldiers has doubled since two

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Speaker 1: thousand and twelve, more than doubled, it's risen one and

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Speaker 1: fifty nine. This is not of a stigial practice from

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Speaker 1: days gone by Child Soldiers International, which is an NGO

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Speaker 1: seeking to end this practice, so obviously they have an

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Speaker 1: agenda play in this. Institution estimated that there were possibly

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Speaker 1: more than a hundred thousand children in state level and

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Speaker 1: non state military orders around the world. Either way you

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Speaker 1: look at it, whichever numbers you wish to use, it's

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Speaker 1: inarguable this is a situation involving thousands and thousands of kids,

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Speaker 1: their kids who often have fallen through the cracks of

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Speaker 1: the local government or community systems in place, and it

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Speaker 1: can be very difficult to track them because the forces

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Speaker 1: that use these kids obviously don't always keep paperwork on

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Speaker 1: them or documentation because that would be hard proof of,

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Speaker 1: you know, war crimes. The big question is how did

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Speaker 1: we get here, and like what is the history of

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Speaker 1: children in combat? We've mentioned a few things, but it

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Speaker 1: is it's safe to say that younger people in combat

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Speaker 1: has been a practice that's going on for as long

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Speaker 1: as war has existed, and as we said, that goes

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Speaker 1: well back into the BC years, the BC years A

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Speaker 1: lot of times, as we mentioned already, a feature film

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Speaker 1: that was made about the subject. The the concept of

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Speaker 1: a child's soldier soldier has been romanticized to an extent.

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Speaker 1: Now that doesn't necessarily mean that it's put in a

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Speaker 1: positive light, but it's definitely told through fictional stories or

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Speaker 1: you know, based on nonfiction stories. Many times, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: would say there is romanticization, especially when we're looking at

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Speaker 1: idealized or airbrushed versions of past events, events that occurred

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Speaker 1: while no one living today was alive. Seems to be

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Speaker 1: one of the big cutoffs. Uh, It's it's in stark

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Speaker 1: contrast to the way this practice is portrayed in the

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Speaker 1: modern day and amid other other cultures. Right, like if

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Speaker 1: it's it's odd that the drummer boy of the Revolutionary

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Speaker 1: War the Civil War is off is sometimes seen as

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Speaker 1: uh as a much prettier story than it actually is,

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Speaker 1: or think of think of it. You know. Another romanticized

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Speaker 1: trope is the idea, at least in the West, of

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Speaker 1: underage boys lying about their age to gain entry into

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Speaker 1: military service. Right. And it's something that we see time

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Speaker 1: and time again in film and fiction. You know, even

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Speaker 1: even to the point where a doctor or authority who's

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Speaker 1: assessing would be recruit knows their line and kind of

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Speaker 1: gives them like a nod and a wink. You know. Uh, well,

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Speaker 1: because everything needed everyone, they could get right so and

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Speaker 1: and behooved them to look the other way. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was the British Forces. There's a documentary I was

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Speaker 1: watching in preparation for this where there are actual World

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Speaker 1: War One soldiers who were children at the time, fifteen

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Speaker 1: sixteen who did sign up. Uh. And it wasn't it

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Speaker 1: wasn't as though they were forced. They wanted to go,

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Speaker 1: and they wanted to sign up, and they wanted to

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Speaker 1: fight in the in the Great War. And a lot

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Speaker 1: of it had to do with propaganda that was put

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Speaker 1: out by military leaders about we need you, and they

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Speaker 1: would try and sign up. They knew they weren't able

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Speaker 1: to sign up, but they did it anyway and lied

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Speaker 1: about their age. And this isn't restricted to the First

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Speaker 1: World War. Napoleon used teenagers in his army. This is

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Speaker 1: a pretty common practice and on both sides of both

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Speaker 1: World Wars, child soldiers existed and often you know, as

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Speaker 1: as you said, they've been um, they've been indoctrinated by propaganda.

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Speaker 1: So when we look at the modern child soldier, we

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Speaker 1: have to ask ourselves why would commanders or people in

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Speaker 1: authority who are adults, why would they continue to use

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Speaker 1: under age like we use children as soldiers. There's a

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Speaker 1: guy named Peter W. Singer who argues that part of

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Speaker 1: this can be traced to the proliferation of light automatic firearms,

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Speaker 1: which is an interesting point that a lot of people

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Speaker 1: you know don't consider light firearms of this nature can

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Speaker 1: be carried and used by children. This makes them more

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Speaker 1: viable and direct combat than they perhaps were in days

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Speaker 1: of yore when guns were heavier, or when um, they

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Speaker 1: had to use weapons that may be required the strength

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Speaker 1: of an adult, you know what I mean, like very

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Speaker 1: like longbows or large swords. Yeah. Another big reason is

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Speaker 1: things like overpopulation and scarce resources and absolutely crippling poverty

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Speaker 1: that would make uh, this seem like a valid alternative

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Speaker 1: to that kind of life. Again, like I was saying earlier,

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Speaker 1: like just the need for any kind of support at

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Speaker 1: the cost of you know, being absolutely exploited. Some leaders

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Speaker 1: a positive because they're fearless in battle because they haven't

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Speaker 1: been taught otherwise um, and they don't have the same

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Speaker 1: experience with like self preservation. You know, that's like this

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Speaker 1: is not exactly the same thing, but like small children

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Speaker 1: are fearless, often like they're they're they're willing to take

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Speaker 1: risks because they haven't had time to learn from their mistakes,

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Speaker 1: yet still get burned exactly, And this is something that

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Speaker 1: is absolutely exploited. Um even even if they even if

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Speaker 1: they have something like that, they still don't have that

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Speaker 1: fear of death. Then under that true understanding of finality

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Speaker 1: of what it is, and especially if they grew up religious,

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Speaker 1: then there's this there's just theres a lot to be

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Speaker 1: exploited there in the mind of the child, not to

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Speaker 1: mention that they're still developing and maturing mentally, and they're

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Speaker 1: just a lot more easy to take advantage of or

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Speaker 1: to especially under the guise of like a helping hand.

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Speaker 1: Of course, I'll do whatever you want me to do.

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Speaker 1: You're you're keeping me from starving to death, you're giving

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Speaker 1: me a place to sleep. So this is also heavily exploited.

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Speaker 1: And there's another thing here that's been reported is that

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Speaker 1: child soldiers would sometimes be used to confuse the enemy

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Speaker 1: and to make the enemy feel less inclined to fire

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Speaker 1: back at a child that is coming at them, even

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Speaker 1: with a bayoneted rifle or you know, within with an

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Speaker 1: assault rifle. When there's a child coming at you with that,

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Speaker 1: it does something to you. Can you imagine? I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's just like talk about disregarding like basic rules of

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Speaker 1: engagement or whatever this is that you're right, then it's

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Speaker 1: absolutely psychological warfare. Not to mention, they're cheaper to maintain

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Speaker 1: than fully grown soldiers. They don't need as much and

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Speaker 1: they you know, they're small, they can get into tight

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Speaker 1: spaces and things like that. I do want to point

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Speaker 1: out this is this is something that I dove into

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Speaker 1: years ago for car stuff of all things. We're doing

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Speaker 1: an episode about what the driving age should be. Right.

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Speaker 1: We've got a lot of folks in the audience who

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Speaker 1: are you know, just who just heard like fift eight

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Speaker 1: or sixt eight and you're gonna get your license if

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Speaker 1: there's not a pandemic in the US. And we've got

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Speaker 1: a lot of people who are parents of kids who

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Speaker 1: are turning driving age, right, and there there's been this,

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Speaker 1: you know, back and forth for a long time about

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Speaker 1: what the appropriate ages for a kid to have a

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Speaker 1: driver's license and operate a motor vehicle. It turns out

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Speaker 1: that your brain and your your faculties aren't really fully

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Speaker 1: developed until you're about So if we say that someone

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Speaker 1: needs to be an adult before they can drive, uh,

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Speaker 1: then you would be getting your license at which is

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Speaker 1: just not going to fly. Uh. And we're bringing this

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Speaker 1: up because this gives you a sense of how much

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Speaker 1: growing children's brains still have to do, you know, when

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Speaker 1: they're fourteen, or when they're when they're as young as

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Speaker 1: eight years old. Um. This means that even if these

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Speaker 1: kids feel that they are taking an opportunity and feel

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Speaker 1: that they're volunteering um there, they may not have the

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Speaker 1: cognitive development uh such that we could consider this informed consent.

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Speaker 1: Does that make sense? So we're about to dive into

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Speaker 1: some incredibly disturbing stories, folks, but we believe they are

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Speaker 1: important and we believe people need to know about them. Again,

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Speaker 1: what follows may not be suitable for all listeners, So

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Speaker 1: we're going to pause for a word from our sponsor

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Speaker 1: and will return in a moment. Here's where it gets

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Speaker 1: crazy recruitment tactics with hard air quotes around those. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And the reason that we've got those there is because

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Speaker 1: this is many times often not a consensual process between

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Speaker 1: the child and whoever whatever person or organization is doing

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Speaker 1: that recruitment. Some children are fully abducted and taken from

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Speaker 1: either families or whatever living situation they are in. Some

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Speaker 1: are threatened, families are threatened. Sometimes sometimes the children themselves,

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Speaker 1: if they're alone, are are coerced into joining by being

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Speaker 1: offered things that they don't have available to them if

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Speaker 1: they weren't going to go with this person or a group,

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Speaker 1: things like drugs, money, even even just other things like

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Speaker 1: a place to sleep and a group to be with.

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Speaker 1: Almost almost like we've discussed before in UM, the recruitment

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Speaker 1: tactics of gangs, very similar stuff going on here or

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Speaker 1: or uh sometimes cults as we'll see. And then and

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Speaker 1: then there's also a very rational decision, a very rational threat,

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Speaker 1: which is you have to join us because we will

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Speaker 1: protect you against the other people right who are also

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Speaker 1: coming to your rural area to wage war. So, after

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Speaker 1: this initial process whatever you wanna call it, recruitments, kidnapping,

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Speaker 1: UM courson of some swet, after this begins the indoctrination

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Speaker 1: process because they have these young, malleable minds. One of

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Speaker 1: the most well known recent examples of this practice, especially

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Speaker 1: in the States comes from the infamous Joseph Coney, who

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Speaker 1: was still at large. Long time listeners, we've been doing

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Speaker 1: this show for a while. You may recall in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and twelve, there was an awareness campaign called Cony

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Speaker 1: two thousand and twelve that went viral. There were also

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Speaker 1: a lot of criticisms about this campaign, the primary one

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Speaker 1: being um that people were becoming clicktivist, which is a

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Speaker 1: portmanteau meaning someone who confuses liking a post with doing

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Speaker 1: something about a cause, doing something to support a cause

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Speaker 1: they care about, or a pose a problem. Right. Um,

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Speaker 1: do you guys remember when Cony two thousand twelve, Joseph

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Speaker 1: Coney leader of that thing called the Lord's Resistance Army.

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Speaker 1: You know, honestly, I didn't remember much about that until

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Speaker 1: I've reread some of it. All I remembered was Cony

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Speaker 1: and like the basic concept, but no no specifics about

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Speaker 1: the atrocities or what was going on. It's interesting how

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Speaker 1: when it comes such a slogan and an icon, just

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Speaker 1: you know, those things put together. Um, that's what you remember,

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Speaker 1: because you know, the posts a lot of times would

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Speaker 1: just be that. And there is that documentary by Invisible Children, Uh,

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Speaker 1: everybody agrees this isn't borrant practice, but we need to

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Speaker 1: understand how it works in The l r A is

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Speaker 1: one of the organizations of which outsiders have intimate knowledge

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Speaker 1: because of the accounts of survivors. We have firsthand accounts.

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Speaker 1: So for more than two decades, the l r A

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Speaker 1: kidnapps and estimated thirty thousand children from northern Uganda. To

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Speaker 1: think about that again, the u N has thirty thousand

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Speaker 1: verified cases. They said the l r A kidnapped and

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Speaker 1: estimated thirty You see how the numbers get fuzzy. It's

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Speaker 1: difficult to track. But we do know that the l

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Speaker 1: r A force these children into military service and they

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Speaker 1: brainwash them. If you check out our YouTube video on

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Speaker 1: how cults work, you'll you'll recognize a lot of commonalities here. First,

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Speaker 1: they instill existential fear. If you're a child who has

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Speaker 1: been kidnapped by the l r A. Uh, they're not

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Speaker 1: just telling you that they'll kill you if you try

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Speaker 1: to escape. They're telling you that the communities you try

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Speaker 1: to escape too, like go if you try to run

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Speaker 1: back home if you have a home to go to. Still,

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Speaker 1: they're telling the kids that the community they escape to

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Speaker 1: will also murder them in various unspeakable ways. But in

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Speaker 1: the case of the l R A and even more

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Speaker 1: in cities think about this is it's not true Coney's

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Speaker 1: opponents do not kill child soldiers, but the kids have

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Speaker 1: no way to know that. Yeah, for sure, the other

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Speaker 1: ing factor really plays a big part. I I was

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Speaker 1: reading up a little bit um, and I I think

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Speaker 1: it's speculated that that film I was talking about, Beasts

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Speaker 1: of No Nation, is somewhat loosely based on Coney. It's

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Speaker 1: sort of meant to be sort of like a amorphous

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Speaker 1: African country that they don't name it. Um. But it's

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Speaker 1: very similar to the types of tactics we're talking about here. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And you know, on top of that, after you've gotten

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Speaker 1: in their heads that way already, one of the practices

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Speaker 1: that again we've talked about before, would be to remove

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Speaker 1: the sense of self, the the identity from the child's

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Speaker 1: mind to um restrict things from them that would remind

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Speaker 1: them of home, of their culture, of their family. Um.

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Speaker 1: There's there's an example that you have here, been of

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Speaker 1: the calabash gourd, which is um I believe used as

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Speaker 1: a ceremonial instrument in Uganda. And it's something that would

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Speaker 1: be very common for a child growing up there in

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Speaker 1: northern Uganda. But then the l r A specifically restricts

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Speaker 1: this in and and forbids any use of of this chord. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's all. It's all kind of textbook like cult leader

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Speaker 1: type behavior to the like the separation, the isolation that

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Speaker 1: you know, the kind of insular situation and almost like

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Speaker 1: having their own terms separating people from their own culture

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Speaker 1: and their own family. A lot of the same kind

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Speaker 1: of tactics. It seems like that the cult recruiters use,

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Speaker 1: which again you know, I I don't say this all

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Speaker 1: the time, but the video we mentioned earlier that presents

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Speaker 1: this stuff does hold up because these rules don't really change.

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Speaker 1: These tactics don't change. They evolve with stuff like social

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Speaker 1: media and so on, but it's still the same process, right. Um.

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Speaker 1: Other activities are forbidden that give that sense of self

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Speaker 1: whispering is uh is forbidden because that gives that is

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Speaker 1: seen as a sign of plotting. And then from the

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Speaker 1: cult perspective, one of the first things you do is

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Speaker 1: remove privacy, remove agency. Uh. The commanders also demand that

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Speaker 1: children participate in homicide. One former child soldier reported they

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Speaker 1: would say things like quote, if you didn't want to kill,

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Speaker 1: are you not one of us? Please come forward and kill.

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Speaker 1: It's not only normalized by the l r A and

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Speaker 1: organizations like it, it's also the only way to ensure

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Speaker 1: your favor in the eyes of the commanders. It's the

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Speaker 1: only way to get promoted, and in many cases it's

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Speaker 1: the only way not to be punished, especially in the

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Speaker 1: beginning when you haven't been traumatized and desensitized um. This

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Speaker 1: also includes situations where children have been forced to participate

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Speaker 1: in the murder of members of their own community, including relatives, neighbors, siblings, parents,

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Speaker 1: and Coney himself. If this is a cult Coney as

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Speaker 1: the leader. I was recently rewatching Apocalypse Now the Redux version,

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Speaker 1: which as you guys know, is based on a novel

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Speaker 1: called The Heart of Darkness. Uh Kurts in the Heart

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Speaker 1: of Darkness or Colonel Kurtz in Apocalypse Now are treated

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Speaker 1: as these demi gods by the population that they have

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Speaker 1: exerted dominion over and Cony. Uh Cony does similar things.

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Speaker 1: He teaches his army that he is like a god,

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Speaker 1: that he has spiritual powers, and part of this is

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Speaker 1: because the l R A is a an offshoot of

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Speaker 1: an earlier non military group called the Holy Spirit Movement.

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Speaker 1: It was a religious group. So he's got that they're

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Speaker 1: all already kind of spiritual roots here. They believe he

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Speaker 1: has powers, is what I'm saying. Yes, In fact, Cony

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Speaker 1: absolutely pushed this whole narrative. He claimed that he could

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Speaker 1: speak with spirits and that all of the l R.

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Speaker 1: A actions were justified because they can't can't we're handed

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Speaker 1: down from on high in some way in the name

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Speaker 1: of religion. And Coney also claims that Tipoo Melangs, which

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Speaker 1: he refers to as the Holy Spirit, is protecting him

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Speaker 1: and keeping him safe and his his followers, and that

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Speaker 1: he is essentially communicating with him to let him know

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Speaker 1: who like has bad intentions toward him, so that he

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Speaker 1: can actually read the intentions of his enemies and then

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Speaker 1: get inside their heads with this kind of like spiritual intervention. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And also that the spirits of those of fighters who

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Speaker 1: have been killed will one day return to kill their

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Speaker 1: perpetrators if the fighters attempts to escape. So it's also

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Speaker 1: like a malevolent quality to this of like, you know,

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Speaker 1: vengeful spirits coming back for revenge from beyond the grave

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Speaker 1: right like you have your child. You're a child. You've

429
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: been forced to kill someone doctor Nation process. Not only

430
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:06,120
Speaker 1: have you killed this person, but now you are Now

431
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 1: you are told that the spirit of the person you

432
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 1: killed will come find you if you try to escape.

433
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 1: Now you owe a debt to the lr A. And

434
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: in addition to these sticks, the group dangles a carrot

435
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:29,120
Speaker 1: future power and wealth if we succeed in overthrowing the government,

436
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: Coney said, every soldier, regardless of their rank, will be

437
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: rewarded with very high rank in the military, and they'll

438
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: also get a lot of material wealth. Uh. These, of

439
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: course are lies. Obviously, a former child soldier of the

440
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: l r A, who's identified as Edward in an interview

441
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: share the story of his abduction, his indoctrination, and his

442
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: eventual escape with the Guardian the British outlet, and he had.

443
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: He is distinct because he became relatively close to Joseph

444
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: Coney himself. And so that's why that's why we have

445
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: such an understanding of the l r A. We can

446
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 1: tell you a little bit about his story. Again, this

447
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: hasn't happened to every victim of this practice, but there

448
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: are a lot of commonalities here, um, and they are.

449
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 1: It's it's just it's terrible. So here is uh kind

450
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: of the story of of this. Uh. This this child

451
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: soldier of Edward, he was kidnapped, um, at the age

452
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 1: of thirteen, abducted, And he tells it like this. In

453
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 1: the middle of the night, the rebels came and surrounded

454
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: our homes. Until then, I had never heard the sound

455
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 1: of a gunshot. That's an interesting detail. Um. The rebels

456
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: captured dozens of boys, the youngest of whom was around

457
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: eight years old. Oh my god. This Yeah. This person

458
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: also reported that one of the neighbor children who was there,

459
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: who got caught up in everything, was forced to murder

460
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: his own parents. I mean, talk about the ultimate act

461
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: of disconnecting, right. It's like, first of all, it's like

462
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: a show of like loyalty, you'll do this for me.

463
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: And also now where I'm your parents now you know,

464
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: I mean, good god. Yeah. And and in such a

465
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 1: swift and brutal way, all of these children, the ones

466
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: you made it through that encounter, ended up having to

467
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: travel by foot for five days immediately following this. And

468
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: according to this this person, Edward, the survivor most of

469
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 1: the most of the children died while on that five

470
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: day journey. You can imagine that was an arduous journey

471
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: and in pretty bad conditions, and without preparation for the children.

472
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: Without Yeah, yeah, I mean, as far as the abductors

473
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: are concerned, I'm sure they just figured that was collateral

474
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: damage and as long as we get a handful of

475
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: them through, then it was worth the effort. Yeah. The

476
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: survivors were forced into training once they arrived at the

477
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 1: conclusion of the march, using trees for target practice, and

478
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: from day one, the victims were repeatedly forced to participate

479
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 1: the murder of people who attempted to escaped children who

480
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: attempted to escape, and they were warned that they too

481
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: would face the same fate if they tried something similar.

482
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: This is one example. You can learn much more about

483
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: this practice as we record today. I believe Joseph Codey

484
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: is still at large. We're going to pause for a

485
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: word from our sponsor and will return with more on

486
00:31:51,400 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: child soldiers. And we have returned. We know this is

487
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 1: a bleak and immensely bleak that's a good word, and

488
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: immensely bleak subject. So we actually took some extra time

489
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: during the break just just to hang out for a

490
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: little bit. Uh. Now we want to we want to

491
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: explore consequences punishment death. As we said earlier, the l

492
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: r A is one of the most well known examples

493
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: of this practice due to the Cony campaign, but it's

494
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: far far from the only example. And it's uh, I

495
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:43,719
Speaker 1: think it's tremendously damaging two organizations who seek to address

496
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: this problem when it is somehow portrayed as something that

497
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: only happens on one continent. We know the the the

498
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: confirmed use of child soldiers in the modern day occurs

499
00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: in Colombia, Burmah, Nepal. It's yamming, you know, it's not

500
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: restricted to this one place. And regardless of their stated

501
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: ideologies or goals, you know, because a lot of these

502
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 1: organizations are aiming for different things, right, They're aiming to

503
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 1: topple a government, or they're aiming to um impose a

504
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 1: radicalized ideology of some sort. But when it comes to

505
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: the exploitation of children in the same rule, these kids

506
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 1: are forced to kill or be killed. Ben, what would

507
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: you say, It's more typical for these to be parts

508
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: of sort of more ad hoc kind of militia type situations,

509
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: or these like government sanctioned. This is like official, Yeah,

510
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 1: it's it's a good question, and it's it's troubling, right

511
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: because you know, we talked about we talked about the

512
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: what informed consent is and when a brain is capable

513
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 1: of making informed consent. Uh. We have like pretty good

514
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,479
Speaker 1: evidence that the trend is this is more common in

515
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: non state actors, you know, militia's terrorist groups, Poke O, Haram, etcetera.

516
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 1: But it still occurs in There are two there are

517
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: two definitions here, or there are two factors. It can

518
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 1: still occur in state level actors. And the big factor

519
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 1: is what do you consider the threshold for a child?

520
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 1: Because some First world countries allow you to enlist in

521
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: the military at a very young age. There's one country

522
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: which is considered highly developed and their their age at

523
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: which one can enlist in the military is fifteen years

524
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 1: and seven months and even have to be sixteen. That

525
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: country is the Uniteted Kingdom, which surprises a lot of

526
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 1: I mean, does that surprise you guys? Yeah, I thought

527
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: it was nineteen. I really thought it was nineteen. But

528
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 1: maybe it is just this restricted, restricted roles that you

529
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 1: can have at that age. I know, you can't be

530
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: sent overseas or sent into wartime battle unless you're eighteen

531
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: or nineteen. If out of this nineteen and to be clarified,

532
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: you can start your when we say you can enlist,

533
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: that means you can start your application in fifteen years

534
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: and seven months. So it is an important point. Your point, Matt,

535
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: You know they're not sending these fifteen year olds out

536
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: into um into a conflict. Is it almost like an

537
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: r OTC type situation or like like training wheels, you know,

538
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: like where you're decided this is the direction you want

539
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: to go, and you start a process at that age

540
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 1: that probably involves some level of training or I wouldn't

541
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 1: be surprised. Yeah. Yeah, all I know for sure is

542
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,800
Speaker 1: that you can It's almost like it's just like going

543
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 1: if you're going to send off your information to a

544
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 1: college or something you're trying to get in. It's very

545
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 1: similar to that you send that off early before you

546
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: start any kind of you know, actual pro us usually

547
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 1: only about a year earlier though. I mean, it's not like,

548
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 1: you know, I would think by sixteen they would be

549
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 1: doing the thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, But but that's why

550
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,959
Speaker 1: I think that's the reasoning behind starting at fifteen point

551
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 1: seven five seven, Right, that's very very fetish. Um. And

552
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: this is you know, I mean, at the end of

553
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: the day, this is a cycle that is almost impossible

554
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 1: to break, as anyone who's had post traumatic stress disorder

555
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: can attest. Uh, this is something that lives with you

556
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,760
Speaker 1: and follows you likely for the rest of your life.

557
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: And well, yeah, and and it just because we were

558
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 1: talking about militaries, especially in the UK using children, just

559
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 1: want to differentiate that we're jumping back to talking about

560
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 1: other situations where young children are the worst to these

561
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: situations rather than signing up through some official process, right right, yeah,

562
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 1: Because um, when you escape, that doesn't mean the story

563
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,399
Speaker 1: is over. Right, there's still a living person there who

564
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 1: has sustained intense, intense psychological damage. Uh. In nineteen, the

565
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 1: UN released a report called the Impact of Armed Conflict

566
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 1: on Children, and it explored the challenges that are facing

567
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 1: these victims. Uh. And then there was further research into

568
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: the into the factors explored in the UN report, and

569
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 1: they found that you know, Uh, these survivors have often

570
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: often struggle with poor literacy and numeracy or math skills

571
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,760
Speaker 1: because they're not they didn't get the opportunity to continue schooling,

572
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 1: you know, and they often have these stabilitating psychiatric illnesses,

573
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 1: which is more than understandable. Yeah, more than half. According

574
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 1: to research that was conducted in Uganda and Palestine, more

575
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: than half of farmer child soldiers showed signs of PTSD

576
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: and nine out of ten children in Uganda show signs

577
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 1: of depression, which is not surprised. I mean, who is

578
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: that one out of ten kid? Who isn't you know?

579
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 1: Just I don't know. I mean, do you think I'm

580
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 1: not trying to be flipping it all? But I mean

581
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 1: sure that there are kids maybe that are more predisposed

582
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 1: to psychopathic or sociopathic tendencies. Maybe they would be the

583
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: ones that would like be really well suited for this.

584
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 1: You know, that's an interesting idea all but these are children,

585
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 1: and I would just say testing children for something like

586
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 1: that is difficult, and even if you're really really good

587
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 1: at it, I'm surprised it wouldn't be ten out of ten.

588
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 1: But yeah, well then also there's i mean, without going

589
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 1: in the weeds too much on this, there's also like

590
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:46,479
Speaker 1: marchin error, there's also how the problem of as you said,

591
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 1: that diagnosing or gauging what what a kid is really experiencing.

592
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: And and you know, I've said it before, one of

593
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 1: the strangest, most inspiring, and most terrifying things about the

594
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:05,760
Speaker 1: Speed Sees is how quickly things become normalized or de stigmatized,

595
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 1: or you know, become a regular day to day thing

596
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 1: or appear to be because our brains have to tell

597
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 1: us that to survive, UM, they're in a situation. If

598
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: you're in a situation where violence is normal and UM

599
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: murderers routine, then it's a it's a profound it's a

600
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 1: profoundly challenging thing to go back to the rest of

601
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 1: the world where that is not the case. So these

602
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 1: survivors also often struggle with antisocial behavior. You've been taught

603
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 1: that one must use violence to advance in the world,

604
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,800
Speaker 1: to get the things you want. And you've also been

605
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:55,479
Speaker 1: taught not to trust anyone, and that everyone is seen

606
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 1: as an adversary, you know, like and in some way,

607
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: shape or form. It's a heartbreaking yeah. Yeah, And there's

608
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: you know, we we wanted to be careful to in

609
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 1: this episode not to have lurid, exploitative UM horror stories here,

610
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 1: but these children are scarred. Some of the things that

611
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 1: you can I'll learn about on your own, include eyewitness

612
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: reports of forced consumption of blood or human flesh, mutilation

613
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 1: of bodies, things like that. And of course we've talked

614
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 1: a lot about boys being abducted, but this is not

615
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: restricted to young males. Girls are abducted female children, and

616
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:52,919
Speaker 1: they are often forced into to be what are called

617
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,720
Speaker 1: wives for commanders, or they are given over to other

618
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:01,879
Speaker 1: members of a group uh or sexual abuse as some

619
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 1: sort of reward. And then they upon escaping, some of

620
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 1: them return home with children and they're hoping, you know,

621
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 1: that they will be accepted by their community, which is

622
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 1: an horrific situation. Human Rights Watch has found that sometimes

623
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 1: when these kids are escaping, they can be harmed by

624
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: the opposing groups that detain them. Like if there's a

625
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 1: very heated conflict between one separatist group or one official

626
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 1: army and a kid who has been kidnapped by the

627
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: separatist group runs to the army for help, are they

628
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: going to treat them as a victim or are they

629
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 1: going to treat them as a prisoner of war? You

630
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 1: know what I mean? And it's it's a dangerous question.

631
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 1: And and here's the thing. Once all of this is occurring.

632
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,359
Speaker 1: Let's say a child is in has been captured by

633
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 1: an opposing force or something in their some kind of

634
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: hearing that's going to occur, some kind of tribunal where

635
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 1: the child is taken to court, and again, perhaps they

636
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: have done terrible things in the role that they have

637
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 1: been given and put into. Sometimes very often relatives of

638
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:21,800
Speaker 1: this child, maybe close family members, maybe a guardian. Essentially,

639
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 1: often they are banned from attending this kind of hearing

640
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: um because again, it's it's just further further pushing this

641
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 1: child into isolation, really is what it is, and holding

642
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: them accountable for their actions, but actions that were provoked

643
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:43,319
Speaker 1: by someone else, and are you know, arguably not their

644
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: own actions. Yeah, fully, and I don't mean to say

645
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 1: it that way. It's it's something that the child's hands did,

646
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 1: but they were guided by someone Else's just that's so complicated,

647
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,760
Speaker 1: and that that's like, that's even beyond like the idea

648
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: of trying a child as an adult or like that,

649
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 1: you know, a normal all you know, juvenile delinquency, are

650
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 1: you know, bad behavior by by young children like in

651
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 1: civilian for lack of a better term, life, because this

652
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 1: is absolutely they are victims of abuse of indoctrination, of

653
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: manipulation that was beyond their control. How do you hold

654
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 1: them accountable for that? And the groups that conspired to

655
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: kidnap them and to abuse them in this manner are

656
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 1: of course not there to help them. Right, They have

657
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 1: thrown these children to the dust. So this is an

658
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,399
Speaker 1: upsetting episode, but it's it's a very real thing. It's

659
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,959
Speaker 1: a conspiracy that occurs every every day in the modern era.

660
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 1: We are grateful to point out that there are steps

661
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: being taken to end this practice. Their efficacy is not

662
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: what we you know, what anyone would wish for it

663
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:55,399
Speaker 1: in perfect world. But here's what's happening. So, the use

664
00:43:55,400 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: of child soldiers, just like assassination, is a clear violation

665
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:04,720
Speaker 1: of international law. Right. Uh The practice of using child

666
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 1: soldiers continues because to those in power who are devoid

667
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 1: of a certain degree of humanity, the results are worth it.

668
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 1: To them, the results are worth it. Uh. So in

669
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:24,839
Speaker 1: ninety seven there was this thing called the Additional Protocols

670
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: that were added to the Geneva Conventions, and then there

671
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:33,320
Speaker 1: was another agreement, the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

672
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 1: In two thousand two, the Rome Statute of the I

673
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 1: c C. International Criminal Court. UH. These all forbid any

674
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 1: armed forces from using children under the age of fifteen

675
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 1: in direct armed combat. But there's not a there's not

676
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 1: an international standard for when government can enlist someone in

677
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 1: their armed services. In this addresses what we were talking

678
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 1: about a minute ago. Currently, it's a little bit divisive

679
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 1: as to whether the children themselves should be prosecuted and

680
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 1: held accountable for war crimes. UM. Incredibly complicated issue. International

681
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 1: law doesn't explicitly prohibit this, but it does limit the

682
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:22,320
Speaker 1: punishments that can be meted out to these children. Um.

683
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 1: There is no death penalty on the table and no

684
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 1: life imprisonment. At least there's that. Yeah, which I guess

685
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: is thanks. I don't know. I guess it's good that

686
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:36,479
Speaker 1: the international community could at least agree on that. So

687
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:41,760
Speaker 1: in two thousand something called the Opaque Treaty came into force.

688
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,320
Speaker 1: This is UH. And you know, we don't get to

689
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 1: choose how the U in sites write their treaties. We

690
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: don't get to choose the language they use. OPAC stands

691
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: for the Optional Protocol on the Involvement of Children in

692
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 1: Armed Conflict. This prohibits child conscription. This forbids the use

693
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 1: of child recruits in UH conflicts, and it ensures that

694
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 1: military recruits are no younger than sixteen. It also forbids,

695
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 1: at least on paper, non state armed groups militias from

696
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:23,320
Speaker 1: recruiting anyone under the age of eighteen for any purpose.

697
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 1: But again, these these are treaties, right, and treaties only

698
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 1: really exist to the degree that they are enforced or

699
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,879
Speaker 1: have consequences. Does that make sense. We could all right

700
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,839
Speaker 1: now make a treaty about pretty much anything. We could

701
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: just say we have an agreement. But unless there is

702
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:47,319
Speaker 1: some sort of cost to breaking that agreement, then in

703
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 1: my opinion, it's just a conversation that somebody wrote down.

704
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,720
Speaker 1: You know, it's true. But the good thing is that

705
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 1: approximately sixty non state armed groups have entered into agree

706
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: it's to stop or scale back their use their own

707
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 1: use of children in combat and soldiers. I mean, that's

708
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: at least somewhat positive, right, m hmmm. It's true. And

709
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 1: we also see that some of these nonstate actors have

710
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 1: gone into agreements, maybe not necessarily at the level of

711
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 1: you and treaties, but they've gone into agreements like with

712
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 1: the country there are the regime or the government that

713
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,840
Speaker 1: they're opposed to they've kind of put some rules of

714
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 1: conflict down, but still the practice continues today, the survivors

715
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 1: remain largely disenfranchised, all too often ignored, often refugees uh

716
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 1: in in clear need of support system, clear need of

717
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: psychological support. Uh in clear need of things as mundane

718
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 1: as as job training you know what I mean, or

719
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:04,320
Speaker 1: or edging cacational opportunities uh as we record this today,

720
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 1: we are about one month away from February twelve. This

721
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 1: is the International Day against the Use of Child Soldiers.

722
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:17,359
Speaker 1: It's also known as Red Hand Day. Want to think

723
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:22,320
Speaker 1: that countless individuals and organizations working to end this practice,

724
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,319
Speaker 1: and we want to hear your thoughts and experiences. What

725
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 1: do you think can be done to ensured children are

726
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 1: able to have well a childhood? What can institutions, communities

727
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 1: and governments due to um that sounds cool, but to

728
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 1: d disincentivize these groups that forced children in the war.

729
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 1: How can we for these very unethical actors, increase the

730
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 1: cost and the consequences of engaging in this practice such

731
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:53,399
Speaker 1: that it does not make sense for them to do so,

732
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 1: because obviously appealing to their humanity is just not going

733
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 1: to work. And maybe I'm being too definitive there. I

734
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 1: don't know, what do you guys think? What is there

735
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,320
Speaker 1: a world where you know we've talked about before, but

736
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 1: a world where humans aren't really involved in war at

737
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 1: all and it's just robots and drones, or for sure

738
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 1: that's going to happen. I want to talk about something

739
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 1: a little abstract here, guys in that vein, if that's okay,

740
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:23,840
Speaker 1: really quickly, I'm just thinking about the propaganda aspect of

741
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:26,879
Speaker 1: a lot of this, and I'm one, I'm and I'm

742
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 1: trying to imagine just the United States military as an

743
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:35,200
Speaker 1: example of Captain American and Bucky That's that's what I mean,

744
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 1: Captain America. The the millions and millions of dollars that

745
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 1: the U. S. Military has spent on video games, on

746
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 1: creating video games, on licensing military you know, vehicles, weapons,

747
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 1: likenesses into things like Call of Duty where there are

748
00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 1: young children. Even though these games oftentimes a rate of

749
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 1: match sure or something, they get into the hands of

750
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:06,319
Speaker 1: children all the time and they're playing video games, identifying

751
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:09,360
Speaker 1: themselves or identifying as these characters who are in the

752
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 1: military who are shooting people. Then watching television and the

753
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 1: propaganda money that is outwardly now and openly spent by

754
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:21,919
Speaker 1: the military on everything from TV shows and movies to podcasts.

755
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 1: I want to stop you. They're real quick. They're on

756
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 1: the movie fronts because I don't know if a lot

757
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 1: of people are aware. The US military, the arm services

758
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 1: will make a deal with movie studios make it very

759
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 1: easy to use real military equipment. Uh in a work

760
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 1: of fiction, one caveat so long as Uncle Sam or

761
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:50,719
Speaker 1: that the military is portrayed in a positive light. It's

762
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,720
Speaker 1: very important. So when you see when you see films

763
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 1: where the military is doing terrible things, where is the antagonist? Uh?

764
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 1: Those that part those action sequences become much more expensive

765
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 1: because they have to pay for more stuff. And and

766
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 1: just to your point there, it is to invade the

767
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 1: minds of I would say children, I think children, And

768
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: and it's just as young in an age as you

769
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 1: can get someone to believe that this is a positive thing,

770
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:23,879
Speaker 1: this is something to aspire to. And uh, I it

771
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 1: feels that way to me. And I'm not saying that's

772
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:30,760
Speaker 1: necessarily bad. I'm just saying it it is somewhat insidious

773
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 1: in that the child perhaps doesn't realize that it's occurring.

774
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:39,439
Speaker 1: What what about what about G I Joe's I loved them,

775
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 1: I should have kept them. I would have had to

776
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 1: have a job at this point. I would have just

777
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:48,959
Speaker 1: been like a G I Joe tycoon for sure. Uh well,

778
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 1: and then what about what about the theory this is

779
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:58,760
Speaker 1: only tangentially related, but what about the theory that factions

780
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:03,399
Speaker 1: of the milidary military now keep this part in military

781
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:08,840
Speaker 1: it's it's uh, it's weaponized cattle the military. Uh No.

782
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 1: What what about the theory that the military industrial complex

783
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:18,360
Speaker 1: or factions thereof what if they're fighting against the idea

784
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:24,800
Speaker 1: of more affordable education or health care because they need

785
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 1: people to have those, like they need people to be

786
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 1: in a bad economic situation to join the military. I've

787
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:34,879
Speaker 1: heard that. I'm sure have you guys heard that one too.

788
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:38,759
Speaker 1: I have it. It makes a lot of sense, but

789
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:43,279
Speaker 1: it's hard to prove. Yeah, yeah, I I would hate

790
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:45,319
Speaker 1: to think that that could be true in any way.

791
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 1: And even what we're speaking of in propaganda right here,

792
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:53,799
Speaker 1: it's it's it's pr it is which is propaganda, And

793
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 1: you know, you know, of course, obviously militaries have to

794
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,400
Speaker 1: do some degree of pr and in like in a

795
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 1: functioning country, if it's not if it's not like an

796
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 1: iron fist dictatorship, there there has to be PR. I mean,

797
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 1: why am I even saying that there's a ton of

798
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 1: pr in dictatorships. There's like a parade every afternoon somewhere

799
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:23,479
Speaker 1: in the world. Yeah, But like at a certain point,

800
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 1: PR becomes indistinguishable from propaganda. You know, propaganda is just

801
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:32,319
Speaker 1: sort of like misleading PR. I mean about they're the

802
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 1: same thing. They very much are the same thing. But

803
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 1: the but I guess the what we're making is we're

804
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:43,680
Speaker 1: not saying that, Uh, we're not saying that militaries are

805
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 1: inherently villainous overall for for using PR. It's like you

806
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:51,439
Speaker 1: have to It's like, how are you they like, that's

807
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 1: that's like being a navy and not having a boat.

808
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 1: And we want to know what you think about this practice.

809
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:03,359
Speaker 1: Have you had uh have you had firsthand interactions with

810
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 1: people who have survived something like this. If so, what

811
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:10,799
Speaker 1: were your interactions, Like, Uh, what do you think can

812
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 1: be done? We want to hear from you, and uh,

813
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 1: we have a number of ways that you can get

814
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 1: in touch with us. Yes, you can reach us in

815
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:24,239
Speaker 1: the usual Internet channels of note, We've got Facebook where

816
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:28,440
Speaker 1: we're Conspiracy Stuff Instagram or Conspiracy Stuff Show. UH. You

817
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 1: can also join our Facebook group here's where it gets crazy.

818
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:33,440
Speaker 1: And while you're on the internet, why don't you go

819
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 1: to iTunes or Apple Podcasts or whatever they call themselves

820
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 1: these days and leave us a nice review. It helps

821
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 1: uh up us in the rankings and helps people discover

822
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 1: the show, and we would very much appreciate it. And

823
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 1: you can also find us at YouTube where we are

824
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,720
Speaker 1: Conspiracy Stuff. I think it's YouTube dot com slash conspiracy Stuff.

825
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:51,839
Speaker 1: The name of the channel is stuff they don't want

826
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 1: you to know. Check out all the videos from years past,

827
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 1: as well as videos of us having these discussions. We

828
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 1: hope you enjoy your time there. Uh. I always don't

829
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 1: like saying this, like and subscribe, but like us, like us, please,

830
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 1: Oh Goshen and I had to do that for a

831
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 1: long time, for a long time. Well, I think I

832
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 1: have to pick that up again. Stay tuned. Uh. We

833
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:23,760
Speaker 1: had a couple of plots with here in the US.

834
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:28,960
Speaker 1: I don't know if anybody was also watching that unfold,

835
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 1: but but it installed some of our plans. But we

836
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:34,880
Speaker 1: have big plans for the YouTube channel. Do check it

837
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 1: out in the coming weeks coming month or so. But

838
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 1: in the meantime, while you're sitting there saying all right,

839
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 1: I've watched all the YouTube videos. Okay, social media not

840
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 1: quite my bag of badgers, but I do have a

841
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,319
Speaker 1: story to share with you, we have another way you

842
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:54,720
Speaker 1: can get in contact with us. That is our telephone number.

843
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 1: Whether a landline, a cell or whatever you have, you

844
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:01,359
Speaker 1: can reach us. We are one eight three three st

845
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:05,400
Speaker 1: d w y t K. You will have three minutes.

846
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:09,799
Speaker 1: Those three minutes are yours. They belong to you. You

847
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:12,160
Speaker 1: can tell us whatever is on your mind. Just tell

848
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 1: us if you prefer we do not use your name

849
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:20,919
Speaker 1: or your voice on the show. And if if you can,

850
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:24,920
Speaker 1: if you can try to keep it concise, that that

851
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 1: helps us. Uh, that helps us digest it, and that

852
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 1: makes it easier for us to share it with the

853
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 1: best part of the show, your fellow listeners. So we

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Speaker 1: would love to hear from you there. You hate phones,

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Speaker 1: look more than get it. And that is why we

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Speaker 1: always have one way you can contact us without hopping

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Speaker 1: on the phone, now hopping on the zuck book. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And that is our good old fashioned email address where

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Speaker 1: we are conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com. Mm hmmm.

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Speaker 1: Stuff they Don't Want you to Know is a production

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00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:15,240
Speaker 1: of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,

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00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:18,200
Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.